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Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates/August 2009

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Archived discussion for August 2009 from Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates.

August 31

ITN candidates for August 31

Disney Acquires Marvel

Havent had business news in long time. and this although isnt the largest acquisition or anything like that but it might be of interest to a very large crowd. with disney and marvel involved. -- Ashish-g55 14:08, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I'll support the addition, Marvel is the biggest comic book company in the world, and high-interest subject. Secret account 15:41, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Probably a good fit, do we care that both articles have improvment tags at the top? RxS (talk) 16:18, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
What impact is this going to have? As you note, this isn't a major acquisition in corporate terms, and I see no evidence that it's going to have any cultural impact either. Neither article has more than a one sentence mention of the acquisition. Oppose for now. Modest Genius talk 17:03, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
My initial reaction was oppose but I'm not so sure. Considering the huge impact comics have on entertainment now (look at all the major films and video games based on comics), the cultural impact could potentially be rather significant. The thing is it's difficult to know what impact the acquisition will actually have--it could be that Disney will not actually interfere with Marvel's activities. That said, I'd probably be slightly more inclined to support had they picked up DC Comics.--Johnsemlak (talk) 17:29, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
I think a business item might be overdue so I'd be fine with it, but the maintenance tags bug me so I'd oppose for now. RxS (talk) 17:33, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
no impact to be had here its purely for interest purposes. even that im not really sure how much of an interest but i thought it deserves atleast a nomination for further discussion. -- Ashish-g55 17:37, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm leaning towards oppose if it's not major and it needs to be cleaned up (unless someone is willing to do that but still oppose). Not sure if Marvel means the same to those who don't collect comic books as Disney might to those who don't watch films either. And then it's a bit early to tell if this actually means anything as well. --candlewicke 18:01, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
It might take months or years to know if there's a significant impact. Just depends on where Disney goes with the properties it acquires.--Johnsemlak (talk) 18:06, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Support, we could say something like "The Walt Disney Company (logo pictured) acquires Marvel Entertainment for $4 billion". - Presidentman (talk) Random Picture of the Day 20:22, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

(<-) At the moment, there is only one sentence of update in the article and this is not enough. Besides, the article about Marvel is tagged as the one with not appropriate tone. Regarding the logo in the blurb, this is not ok because fairuse images cannot go on Main page. If all those issues are resolved, I may support. --Tone 20:28, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps name the country in which this is taking place too... --candlewicke 22:18, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Also, the logo is on Commons... --candlewicke 22:21, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Oppose- not a major development along with current article status. Shinerunner (talk) 23:33, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Support once articles are appropriately updated. This is a huge deal which effects movies, comics, theme parks, video games, and potentially other formats of entertainment. --PlasmaTwa2 01:53, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
i find the whole discussion fairly funny. oppose till articles are updated. support but articles need to updated. meanwhile there is nothing to update the articles with lol. all i see are like 2 same quotes everywhere which i would rather not add to either articles. mergers are getting boring these days sigh. if anyone sees better info to update articles then please do so. -- Ashish-g55 02:20, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Wouldn't improving the article be your responsibility also Ashish-g55? I believe that under the current nominating citeria it states "If you question the quality of the update, explain this so the nominator has a chance to improve the article." If you, as the nominator, don't think that an improvement can be made then a definite oppose would be correct. Shinerunner (talk) 04:33, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
my responsibility? a lot of articles are made/updated after nomination and supports and as event progresses. i just said there isnt a lot of info available yet... thats why i said if someone sees something please update. its no ones "responsibility". a definite oppose for that reason is a little weird but ok. -- Ashish-g55 05:19, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
I didn't mean "responsibiltiy", as if you yourself would have to do all the work. I'm using "responsibility" in a broader sense with the thought that since you nominated this news item you would also like to work to improve the article in question so that the nomination may pass. Your earlier statements seem to be "deriding" opposers for wanting to see a more developed update to the articles in question. If I'm mistaken, I apologize.Shinerunner (talk) 05:50, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
nah i was just joking around that there isnt much info to update but everyone wants updates. -- Ashish-g55 13:05, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
My reading of the whole thing is that nothing has actually happened yet. OK, Disney and Marvel have agreed a deal in principle, but it still has to put before Marvel sharholders who could reject it. Also, the acquisition will then come under scrutiny from the market regulator in the US to make sure it is fair and doesn't breach any regulations. As such, it will likely be several months before the takeover is completed and I'd be wary of putting it up too soon. --Daviessimo (talk) 06:55, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I support this because it links directly to encyclopedic information about the two groups. Colipon+(Talk) 08:19, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Support. Since I'll be reunited with my relatively uncool cousin. –Howard the Duck 11:27, 1 September 2009 (UTC)editor has a clear COI as he is clearly angling for his own book again - or maybe an appearance in a giant-sized man-thing --Cameron Scott (talk) 11:33, 1 September 2009 (UTC)Ssssh. Don't spoil them. –Howard the Duck 11:58, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
a little respect please. he is almost 40 years older :) -- Ashish-g55 13:01, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Has the article update standard not been met yet? I counted 4 new sentences in multiple paragraphs with at least three references in the Marvel Entertainment article, and I assume there are other updates as well.--Johnsemlak (talk) 16:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

California Wildfires

I think we should keep an eye on this. Two have been killed already and 10,000 homes evacuated so far. --Daviessimo (talk) 08:01, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Just found this - someone seems to have started an article at August 2009 California wildfires --Daviessimo (talk) 09:39, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
i think california had suffered a lot worse before we posted it last time so i would say wait a bit unless something exceptional happens. and i am not saying wait because this is US (just wanna make it clear). california is just fire prone so wait to see what happens here. -- Ashish-g55 12:57, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Agree California has wildfires every few months, and less than 100 homes burned. If it becomes out of control and burn entire towns, then I guess we need to have it. Secret account 15:41, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Are wildfires in California news? (sorry, joke). Anyway, there are very few deaths so far, it doesn't even seem to be having a major effect on Los Angeles. Certainly not notable enough yet.--Johnsemlak (talk) 17:48, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
I too am under the impression that fire in California is nothing new. --candlewicke 18:07, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
I would also think that a wait and see approach is advisable.Shinerunner (talk) 23:38, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
There size has now doubled. Support.  Cargoking  talk  08:29, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

New Zealand cricket team in Sri Lanka in 2009

In Cricket, Sri Lanka wraps the Test series against New Zealand 2-0. (Cricinfo) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chanakal (talkcontribs) 04:32, 31 August 2009

Oppose, per WP:ITNR the only Test series we feature are the Ashes and India v Pakistan. Modest Genius talk 04:15, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
I see. Thanks!--Chanaka L (talk) 04:33, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
WP:ITNR is only a guideline so it's not written in stone, not that I would support this anyway. But why only the Ashes India v Pakistan? It's the India v Pakistan bit I'm wondering about..don't know much about Cricket though. RxS (talk) 04:40, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
India vs Pakistan is considered one of keenly contested cricket rivalries. Here is the India versus Pakistan cricket rivalry. Well, SL vs NZ is not involved that much intensity. Regards!--Chanaka L (talk) 04:52, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Pretty much. There is no world championship in Test cricket, so we feature the two series which are considered to be far and away the biggest rivalries. And there's no way we could run every Test series. Modest Genius talk 04:54, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
I think there are a number of sports events that happened last weekend, or on any given weekend, that are of greater international interest that this. Óppose--Johnsemlak (talk) 17:51, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

A nomination involving dead people in an African country

Terrible train crash in Cameroon the other day. In fact there were two. Eleven dead so far. Death toll expected to rise. Luckily, only 400 of the passengers were injured with most escaping unharmed. At least one of the fires took four hours to put out though. --candlewicke 00:55, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

It's not "political/election/war/shuttle launch" so I suppose there is one support anyway... --candlewicke 00:57, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
i was gonna nominate but it only had 4 deaths then. seems like they have grown (and growing) so support. -- Ashish-g55 01:57, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Is there an article(s) for the crashes? Also, train crashes seem fairly mundane, not sure its too notable/significant. Leaning towards oppose. Deserted Cities 03:09, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

A nomination involving lesbians

Lesbians in two countries have just been given equal birth rights. This has been described as "brilliant news" and it is thought by some that "the media coverage will help get the point across that our lifestyle is 'normal', for want of a better word, and nothing to get excited about". --candlewicke 01:05, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Is there an article for it? I don't wish to get into an argument over wording, but most consider Wales and England one country (or more likely two parts of the UK). Either way I'd still support. Deserted Cities 03:09, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Done. Lesbians are granted equal birth rights in England and Wales. According to the United Kingdom article, Wikipedia considers England and Wales (and Northern Ireland and Scotland) as countries. First line of second paragraph: "The United Kingdom is a constitutional monarchy and unitary state consisting of four countries: England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales.19" I imagine there must be a good reason for this. --candlewicke 17:50, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
The reason for England and Wales being mentioned specifically (as opposed to the UK as a whole) is because they have a separate legal system to Scotland, see the introduction of our Scots law article. – Toon 18:42, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm looking at the BBC News website and I can't find a single mention of this on the main page (am I missing something?).--Johnsemlak (talk) 17:59, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Hope not, I just added it. If there's no real mention I'll pull it. RxS (talk) 18:01, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Maybe the BBC doesn't care much about these topics... Anyway it is in several newspapers and one of the sources is the BBC (reporting yesterday though so it has probably been replaced by newer news now). --candlewicke 18:04, 31 August 2009 (UTC)'s
THis may be a very historic development but it is not getting prominent coverage right now. Has any media outside the UK covered this?--Johnsemlak (talk) 18:22, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Whether it was intentional or not, Johnsemlak has highlighted a major issue with the whole war in ITN regarding notability. This is by all accounts a very significant and historic act that has been passed, yet it has received very little attention because it does not have any major short term implications. As such it is both a very important encyclopaedic item (because it involves and change in the law and in the long term will affect to a degree, the culture of the countries in question) and also a poorly reported item. So how do you make a decision? This is were my view differs from many others because I personally feel you have to address any item based upon it encyclopaedic merits rather that by whether or not it is a top story on the BBC or CNN. Thus I would argue that this is exactly the sort of story we want on ITN because it is being judged on its value as encyclopaedic information rather than by its position in the news media --Daviessimo (talk) 18:44, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
I tend to agree with Daviessimo. --BorgQueen (talk) 19:02, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure that this item is any more encyclopedic than a number of other items discussed in this section recently, such as the Oasis split or the Marvel Comics acquisitions. We have the article update standard to try to make sure items are suitably encyclopedic. Also, this may be a historically significant event (or may not be, depends on how thigns play out) it is also a controversial issue with multiple sides in most of the world. Thus Wikipedia should maintain its NPOV strictly. Normally simply reporting events would not be a problem but in my opinion putting a news item on ITN that's getting such minimal coverage in even British media could be argued as taking a side.--Johnsemlak (talk) 03:36, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps, it's hard to say how big of a story it'll turn out to be. We don't want to pre-judge it. Wouldn't the story be as big (however big it turns out to be) no matter which side of the issue you are on? I kind of struck while the iron was hot as they say...I haven't been watching this page long but I wonder sometimes how anything ever gets added considering the debates recently.
I wonder if loosening the requirements a bit (which requirements I don't know) would help increase the turn over and make each individual nomination not as much of a big deal. RxS (talk) 04:02, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

A nomination concerning the opening of a road

Silvio Berlusconi has opened the first section of a new 2,000km North African coastal highway which will eventually link Tunisia, Libya and Egypt. The event also marks the first anniversary of the signing of a "friendship treaty" settling all past disputes and much was made of this at the opening with a "huge photographic backdrop" of a handshake present. Probably a significant milestone in relations between the two countries plus a road which will stretch across an entire continent in one event here. Add to that the fact that Libya's leader is celebrating the 40th anniversary of his arrival into power, which will make him the longest serving head of state in both Africa and the Arab world. A lot of things happening here. --candlewicke 01:26, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm assuming an article exists, but where is it? I do support this as well, though the BBC doesn't say how long this first section is, or when the project will be complete. Deserted Cities 03:09, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

August 30

ITN candidates for August 30

Dalai Lama visit to Taiwan

The 14th Dalai Lama accepts invitation from Pan-Green Kaohsiung mayor Chen Chu to visit Taiwan.Source: 達賴搭機來台 表明純祈福消災 - 中央社. Featured on the Chinese Wikipedia Main Page ITN. I guess this would be highly controversial in regards to the attitudes of the PRC when it comes to Taiwan and the Dalai Lama. Source notes that he is in Taiwan "due to the recent floodings in Taiwan". -- 李博杰  | Talk contribs email 10:14, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

THis is definitely a major item. I'm on the fence about whether to support or oppose but it deserves more discussion than it's got IMO. The Dalai Lama is certainly a notable figure and this is a major event in Taiwan/China/Tibet relations, events of which are followed worldwide. The event was discussed in a number of media that cover international events, though it may have been overshadowed by elections in Japan and the usual news from Iraq/Afganistan.--Johnsemlak (talk) 17:43, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Any other comments? I think it fits. The problem is that there's not much in the way of article updating around this. RxS (talk) 17:46, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Personally, I think we should feature the visit when it occurs, not the acceptance of the invitation now. Modest Genius talk 19:11, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
I would agree it best to wait until the visit actually happens. I think the place for an update will be Cross-Strait relations --Daviessimo (talk) 19:18, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
He's there already. [1] [2] -- 李博杰  | Talk contribs email 07:49, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Ehud Olmert

Former Israeli PM Ehud Olmert has been indicted on three corruption charges for "fraud, breach of trust, registering false corporate documents and concealing fraudulent earnings" and becomes the first ex-PM in Israeli history to face criminal charges (from the BBC). Seems fairly notable to me, I know it is usual to wait for outcomes of trials but it seems fairly historic that it is the first time charges have been brought against an ex-PM - Dumelow (talk) 16:31, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

True, but we still have "innocent until proven guilty", and he hasn't been convicted of any wrong-doing yet. Joshdboz (talk) 18:35, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
Wait until the verdict, then we shall see. --Tone 19:18, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
I am aware that we usually await a verdict but this is the first time in Israel that a current or former PM has been charged with a criminal offence. I can imagine the uproar if we didn't put up an item if (for example) Clinton or Bush were charged with a criminal offence (not sure if that is a first in the USA?), particularly one relating to an abuse of power. The blurb should obviously clearly state that he has only been charged with an offence at this stage. We would be stating no more than every major news site is at the moment - Dumelow (talk) 20:12, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
I get the point of nomination, it's perfectly reasonable. However, I wonder where is a line between history and news in this case. This is one of the points that is being debated just now at the ITN RFC. Of US presidents, Clinton had an impeachment after the Lewinsky affair though this was not the same as here but he held the office then. Olmert is not the current PM so the trial should not directly affect the government. So, I'd still stick to the rule of a thumb that when a trial begins, it's news, when it ends, it's history. --Tone 20:27, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

This is a first for an ex-Israeli PM, but ITN must consider this from a worldwide perspective. Plenty of ex-leaders in recent world history have had charges placed against them. Besides, as Joshdboz said, he hasn't actually been found guilty, a fact infinitely less notable than if he had been found guilty of something already. If he's found guilty in the future, I think a debate can be had about putting him up on ITN. Until then, I oppose. Otumba (talk) 21:30, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Best oppose if no verdict has been declared. --candlewicke 00:17, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Interesting story, but oppose unless and until he's convicted. Modest Genius talk 00:23, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Gabonese presidential election, 2009

Well, since everyone seems more interested in Japan I will add my support to this one just in case it gets overlooked. These are listed at ITNR anyway but just in case... --candlewicke 18:08, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
The article is written really informative, it only needs results. When this is updated, sure. --Tone 19:18, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
Support. This would be the first Presidential election not including Bongo for quite a while now, right? SpencerT♦Nominate! 20:54, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
Ah yeah, presumably that would be true and would make this all the more significant. He was in power for 42 years. --candlewicke 00:20, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
It's the top African story on IOL where it has been hailed as "a historic moment" and where "for the first time in more than 41 years, Gabonese casting their votes Sunday will not know ahead of time who their next president will be". --candlewicke 00:40, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Support once the result is known Modest Genius talk 04:18, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Japanese general election, 2009

Support, as soon as the first results are reported. --bender235 (talk) 13:24, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
The results are there, so add it now! --bender235 (talk) 15:39, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
Support very notable BritishWatcher (talk) 13:40, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
Approve this headline, as soon as first results come out. - Mailer Diablo 13:50, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
Support obviously. — RockMFR 15:13, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
Exit polls and early counts show a rare landslide victory for the Democratic Party of Japan and PM Taro Aso has conceded defeat. Suggest something like: "The Democratic Party wins a majority of seats in Japan's House of Representatives, taking power from the Liberal Democratic Party who have ruled for 53 of the past 54 years" (needs some tweaking to make it read better, but it should mention something about how historic this is). But we should wait for the official results before posting (as we are with Afghanistan's) - Dumelow (talk) 15:40, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
I wonder if we could mention Yukio Hatoyama in the blurb, so this image could be used? --BorgQueen (talk) 15:44, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Support When the results are confirmed. Otumba (talk) 16:27, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Support and agree with BorgQueen. I've almost always seen "XXXX party, led by XXXX XXXX, wins..." to include the future PM in the blurb. Therequiembellishere (talk) 17:23, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Support Obvious support for an election of a major power. POST ASAP.
Why the hurry? Anyway whenever it has been updated I guess. --candlewicke 18:10, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Support Very historic for Japan, in headlines worldwide. Joshdboz (talk) 18:25, 30 August 2009 (UTC) Support -SusanLesch (talk) 18:34, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I'd prefer: The Democratic Party of Japan, led by Yukio Hatoyama (pictured) wins a (landslide?) majority in the House of Representatives of Japan at thegeneral election. (this is somehow more standard ITN formulation). Anyway, full support when the results paragraph is updated. And the intro may need some polishing. --Tone 19:18, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

From Tone's "The Democratic Party of Japan, led by Yukio Hatoyama (pictured) wins a landslide majority in the Japanese House of Representatives, ending over a half-century of near continuous LDP rule." Joshdboz (talk) 20:56, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Perfect. This one is ready to post as soon as the reference for the results table appears (since the table gives numbers and those are supposedly not final results yet.) --Tone 21:00, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
Could someone re-add this with the blurb we have here? Therequiembellishere (talk) 00:59, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Sure, I'll replace the that's up right now...sorryRxS (talk) 01:03, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Oh, it's fine. It's not like you stuck something up that didn't have consensus or anything. Therequiembellishere (talk) 01:08, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Ok, there....thanks. Lot's of steps that you only learn by doing...RxS (talk) 01:14, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, tell me about it. Haha. That's why I only come semi-regularly. Therequiembellishere (talk) 01:19, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Anything not political/election/war/shuttle launch related

Gets my vote, whatever it is. ITN is an utter joke at the moment, so lets mix it up. MickMacNee (talk) 22:22, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

So i guess this has your vote by default? -- Ashish-g55 23:04, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
Honestly, you didn't get Oasis up and now you're lashing out against the entire forum? I'm not quite sure that's the way to get more people to see you side (regulars or newcomers). Therequiembellishere (talk) 23:12, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
Nice to see you're being helpful and productive. And if you haven't noticed, it IS being mixed up - there's far more people commenting here for a start, including both you and me. Modest Genius talk 00:22, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Well for one I thought there were too many space items these past few days. –Howard the Duck 04:24, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Two in the last two weeks? We've had more sporting stories in that time. Modest Genius talk 04:34, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

August 29

ITN candidates for August 29

Oasis split up
Not notable in the slightest. --PlasmaTwa2 02:43, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Sure. And what happened in Canada today that anyone might give a tiny rat's ass aboot? MickMacNee (talk) 02:49, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
(apart from the Oasis split of course) MickMacNee (talk) 02:54, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Remember to be civil, youngling. And I would suspect a new ambassador to America would be notable, but just like this Oasis story, I don't think its notable enough for ITN. It is a guitarist leaving a band. I have a feeling this won't be making top story in any newspapers. (Except for a couple in the U.K. of course) --PlasmaTwa2 03:08, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
A good deal of the pointless and irrelevent junk that makes it to ITN is not 'top story' news in any country, certainly not if you mean that to be 'front page'. I have a feeling that no appointment of any ambassador has ever made the front page of any British newspaper, ever. MickMacNee (talk) 03:37, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Ah no! I haven't read it... is it true... um, for ITN. In theory, I would oppose until some sort of wider long-term worldwide reaction is evident but I'll read it now and see what else is available. Don't know when the last time this happened to a band with similar significance so I'll wait to see what others make of it and what sort of reaction comes from it. --candlewicke 03:00, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
OK, from what I've read thus far one of them has left. It might be a very important one of them and they might not be able to continue but the news sources seem to be jumping to their own conclusions about an actual split and Wikipedia shouldn't fall into any traps there. It's breaking news right now so I guess we just need to wait and see what comes of it. He may very well decide to change his mind after all and they're always having arguments anyway. There needs to be some sort of reaction at the very least for it to be even considered in my opinion and even then there would likely be opposers (of which I may or not be one of them). Should be clearer on hindsight. --candlewicke 03:13, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Nah, DJ AM is a bigger story than this one. If this gets in, then... –Howard the Duck 03:17, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
(edit conflict) And, on the above, not that newspapers are necessarily important but does The New York Times and Houston Chronicle count? I think the early coverage leads me to be reluctant to give a straight oppose considering it has travelled quite quickly but it does need to develop more and actually confirm a split I think. And then for a bit more to happen in terms of impact. --candlewicke 03:21, 29 August 2009 (UTC) Note: Now on The LA Times site too. --candlewicke 04:23, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
In fact, this would suggest they've managed without him before... --candlewicke 03:24, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
As I've said (somewhere, probably I won't be able to find it quickly) below, we should stop throwing links around and look at the bigger picture -- this story and DJ AM's death is located at the lower part of the NYT's home page, ergo, not important nor, how would I put it, "interesting" enough. –Howard the Duck 03:36, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm not disagreeing with you at all but the equivalent of a British band being in at least two American news sources might be an American being in two British ones, no? Otherwise would it not be a domestic incident? I'm just waiting to see if it gets "interesting" at this stage. --candlewicke 03:41, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
If the Gallagher brothers started killing each other or Robbie Williams (I think he was the one who had a feud with them, I'm not sure.) then we should be adding this.
But actually, if there were to be a British band breaking up that "could've" made it to ITN not named The Beatles, it has to be the Spice Girls, but they're broken up already so it doesn't matter. (My point is that Oasis may not that be big for ITN. Then again, I dunno who Les Paul was so...) –Howard the Duck 03:46, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
I support inclusion of this international (for me), entertainment related item. We need to mix up ITN. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 03:32, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Eh, do you have a source confirming any split? I can't find one where the words came from the mouth of any band member. --candlewicke 03:36, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
On the other hand, if there's no source, I don't support it. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 03:42, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Well, still no split source but this would indicate India has an interest. --candlewicke 03:48, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
And Asia. And now even Australia. Quite encouraging in terms of impact considering it has just happened as well. Or supposedly has, since it is still just one bandmember leaving. Has DJ AM (apologies if it is an incorrect spelling as I've never heard of him) been getting this sort of global coverage? --candlewicke 03:53, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Not found on The Australian's home page, found at the bottom part of Channel News Asia's home page.
As for DJ AM, I'd say Oasis were more popular, but I dunno if Oasis' popularity is enough for ITN. –Howard the Duck 04:01, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
And New Zealand appears interested too and this before the "split". --candlewicke 04:26, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
And, finally from me for now, the first one I've found from Ireland. The newspapers have yet to wake up I think. --candlewicke 04:29, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Toss BBC into the list as well. - Mailer Diablo 13:53, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
It's sourced to their official site (which is not now loading, probably due to all the Canadians wanting to find out the hot story), but if you want like word of mouth confirmation or something, you will probably have to wait until morning, Noel is probably busy mending his guitar right now if he's not out cold.... MickMacNee (talk) 03:57, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Well I think you make a good point about waiting until morning. Perhaps when I wake up none of this will have happened and nobody will have to decide anything. --candlewicke 04:03, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
How many stories do we have that are covered in multiple countries? So a web page has a link to a story on it; it doesn't make it notable. The kidnapping case down below has been covered in every country you can think of, but it hasn't gone up yet. If this becomes CNN's top story, then it can go up. Normally, we don't cover entertainment stories. We didn't put up anything about Britney Spears, who is a lot bigger than Oasis (And i we did I lost all faith in mankind). It is two brothers of a band that I, for one, knew nothing about until a few years ago, having an argument. And MickMacNee, that joke has run thin. I don't think I've ever even heard an Oasis song on the radio in Canada; shows how much we care. --PlasmaTwa2 04:49, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
So, you admit you had heard of them though! I've never heard of DJ AM, you don't see me using that as an argument for or against him or Oasis here. Everybody else has also got the sense to discount personal opinions too as a factor. Celine Dion is the only Candadian artist I've ever heard of, and that's only because she is so goddam annoying. Just look at the independant coverage, and support or opposed from a decent and justifiable position, because quite clearly your original reason is flat out disproven. If you want to stand by the 'no entertainment stories unless it makes the CNN frontpage' stance, that is acceptable to a point, but it is also just a fastrack to narrowing ITN to a narrow field of topics. MickMacNee (talk) 12:49, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
I had to look up Oasis and DJ AM so I don't know if I'm qualified to say if either notable enough. Seems like a relatively significant event in popular music but I don't know if it has wider significance. I guess the question is how significant of a band was Oasis and how significant does it have to be for its breakup to make ITN. Is there a current band whose breakup would warrant ITN inclusion without discussion?--Johnsemlak (talk) 04:57, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
my 2 cents. im from canada here... i do not know them. i am not the biggest music fan so that may be the reason. but i would think if someone was big/famous enough to be on ITN then i should know them since they are from my country. like if this was rolling stones then it would be different story. i am not opposing/supporting since i do not know enough. im just informing that i don't know them and im in canada lol... -- Ashish-g55 05:03, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Aren't they British? Anyway, U2 would be a more recent band (than the Rolling Stones) whose breakup ought to warrant reporting. I've read through the Oasis Wikipedia artilce and they seem big but I just haven't heard of them. (EDIT) actually I should be more specific, this is not a break up of Oasis but simply a notable member of it leaving. Makes it less notable than a full breakup.--Johnsemlak (talk) 06:09, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
My feeling would be that any band splitting up is, in itself, not notable enough for ITN (unless they were the size of the Beatles). Aside from the fact that I never saw Oasis as being that big outside the UK and Ireland (other than during the second BritRock invasion during the mid 1990s) my inclination would be to say that Oasis have split up many times before, but always reformed and whilst the general feeling is that this is final, both Take That and the Spice Girls reformed when someone waggled a bag of money in front of them (OK, maybe thats a bit cynical). --Daviessimo (talk) 10:09, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Nobody is going to be as big as the Beatles, they were a phenomenon. If that's the standard for ITN, then what's the point in it all really? Wikipedia will have probably withered away and died before you get an equivalent music event. A better comparison is actually U2 imho. As for it just being a band member leaving, this is, in all intents and purposes the end of the band, because this is comparable to Mick Jagger leaving the Rolling Stones, and certainly worse than Bonio leaving U2, that's how unlikely it is that even if the band continued, anyone would care enough to buy their music or see them live. And as for comparing the split to Take That and the Spice Girls, I would be extremely surprised if they reformed simply for money, but I don't even see how that is relevant to whether it is ITN worthy or not. MickMacNee (talk) 11:17, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I'd say a band splitting up could in principle be notable, it just has to be such a band where the splitting up would have a broad cultural impact. The Beatles splitting up is at least a useful example of such a noteworthy event. However, that example shouldn't preclude all bands of lesser stature from being newsworthy. My problem is that since I literally just heard of the band (I did play their songs on the Wikipedia page and I recognize them but earlier I wouldn't have been able to name the act), I just can't comment on how newsworthy the breakup is (I'll concede for now that it is a break-up for all intents and purposes). I'd be useful if we had a few more users more familiar with the music scene came here and either voiced support or opposition. --Johnsemlak (talk) 13:14, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Heard of this band (sadly), but not notable enough internationally for ITN section. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:22, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
@Johnsemlak. All I can say is that they were without doubt the biggest UK band of the nineties (note the use of the word band, to denote players of instruments, not boy bands like Take That), they remained a massive band into the noughties with numerous sell out tours, and single handedly made guitar playing cool again. They were regularly top billing in tabloid and highbrow journalism with their rock and rollness, yet they even got invited to meet Tony Blair at Number 10 as the rock ambassadors of Cool Britannia. If you want to know more about their cultural impact, I would say just read the Britpop article, and consider that not only did they dominate that genre, they went past it, and outlasted every act in that article. List of awards and nominations received by Oasis is a fantastic read. Ignore BW, he's obvioulsy a bitter Blur fan! MickMacNee (talk) 13:46, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
The Beatles threshold might sound high, but honestly the breakup of music groups is usually not that headline grabbing (nor world influencing) unless it concerns such a group that has similar global standing. The current absence of such a group doesn't mean that that threshold should be lowered. Joshdboz (talk) 13:57, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Oppose. Simply not notable. Yes, they're a big band, but their heyday was a decade ago, they've split up before (take a look at the article), and the international ramifications are pretty much nil. Modest Genius talk 14:53, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
And what were the international ramifications when the Beatles split up? Did governments fall? Did people riot? Was there mass panic? Nothing mentioned in The Beatles' breakup that looks like international ramifications at all. For a band whose heydey was allegedly a decade ago in your words, they were certainly doing well on the international touring scene this decade, and in case you hadn't noticed, the 'international ramifications' of this split includes three cancelled gigs left on this current tour. Not only is your oppose factually wrong, if you actually meant international notability, how do you suppose anybody goes about proving that if the already given international news coverage is not 'it'. MickMacNee (talk) 15:24, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Where did I suggest that the Beatles breakup had international ramifications? Also, news coverage != notability. Modest Genius talk 15:42, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
LOL. OK, so I'll hang fire for a few years, then when sufficient historical notability for the split of Oasis is established, I'll jump back in time and request it again! And if you can't provide examples for the Beatles, which are being held up by many as a standard, then what was the point in mentioning 'international ramifications' at all? MickMacNee (talk) 16:34, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

In fact, for crying out loud, what were the 'international ramifications' of it being Shuttle Discovery's 'birthday' on flight 128, as it flew up to change the toilet rolls on the ISS? MickMacNee (talk) 15:37, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Firstly, it's a falacy to claim that just because story X went up, story Y should too. Secondly, shuttle launches are listed on WP:ITNR, and thus get posted by default. You may disagree with that, but it's the current procedure. Furthermore, the shuttle launch was discussed on an earlier potential launch date (which appears to have dropped off this page), and I don't see any opposition, which there clearly is here. Modest Genius talk 15:42, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Well that's handy then, because comparing other postings is apparently out, and discussing the actual nomination also appears to be out. And 'they' say ITN is a farce! Not true I say. MickMacNee (talk) 16:34, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm leaning towards oppose right now. No significant coverage seems to have emerged beyond the initial breaking news after several hours and this ("As fans question whether this really is the end") indicates an uncertainty that the event has even happened. I disagree that this is worse (for want of a better word) than Bono leaving U2 and I think a U2 or Rolling Stones split might have a wider impact (alhough this probably comes about as close as you get with a more recent band). There is also the possibility that the two brothers are known by many with little interest in their music for their personal lives or non-musical exploits like, say, Bono or Amy Winehouse (the first two which spring to my mind) are for some of theirs (thus increasing their profile among the public in a way that might not be true of rivals like Blur) but even this aspect of Oasis lacks the type of coverage I would have expected at present. --candlewicke 17:22, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
And as soon as I saved that it appeared on the news I was watching on television (among other more serious events) but it was still not called a split unfortunately (or fortunately whichever way you look at it). --candlewicke 17:30, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
I'd oppose this one for a few reasons. First, the band hasn't been too notable since the 90s. Second, and perhaps more relevant, I haven't heard they've broken up, only that Gallagher is leaving and the band's future is unknown; and it seems that bands break up fairly often these days. Third, there's no precedent (that I know of) for band break-ups to be on ITN. Now there's always an exception, but going back to my first point, Oasis doesn't seem like they're it, and the only bands I would consider are U2 and maybe Coldplay. The Rolling Stones haven't been relevant in a while. Deserted Cities 01:01, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
I think the phrase 'international ramifications' can seem to be an overly high standard (the WP criteria state 'international importance or interest') but I think it's important to remember that that 'international importance' may be within a certain field of interest. Thus, the Space Shuttle has international interest in the space community (It is going to the International Space Station). Usain Bolt's record was a world record and of interest in the sports world (though insignificant to anyone not interested in Athletics). I actually think Oasis may be of some interest to the international music scene, but the recent break-up doesn't appear to be notable enough. When the Beatles broke up there was massive international interest among fans worldwide. I think either U2 or the Rolling Stones, and probably a few others, breaking up now would qualify. The Rolling Stones may not seem relevant now but their music (from the past) is still very popular and they still draw large crowds at concerts. They've visited Moscow several times and those are big events. --Johnsemlak (talk) 04:40, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

The people who think Oasis were only big in the nineties seriously don't know what they are talking about. If people want to look at it that way, they were huge in the nineties, unsurpassed, and then you can merely say they were 'big' in the noughties. They performed multiple world tours in this decade, and were doing one as they split up even. I think the only issue here is a band breakup is never going to be considered worthy for ITN, probably not even U2 if it comes round, yet every single utterly non-notable trash running shuttle launch seemingly is without so much as a whimper of comment unlike here, which is clearly patent nonsense if the idea is to highlight things of interest to the world. And I have to say, people are clearly ignoring the multiple sources given demonstrating worldwide notability. As for the fact that 'they break up all the time;, well, no, they don't actually, which is why multiple sources have recognised this break up as being 'the one', just as they also recognise that neither brother has ever made a public statement of leaving the band, until now. MickMacNee (talk) 10:11, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

The trouble is Mick, whilst it is certainly notable here in the UK even our media have not spent that much time covering it, so if its not getting huge coverage here there really is not much justification to place it on the main page. At the moment the kidnapping of that young girl still has not been placed on the page and yet its had days of world wide media coverage.
If we were able to get some form of topic divide like you mentioned on the talk page for entertainment, politics etc then the oasis story would belong there but not in the present format. Oh and im not a blur fan either lol =) BritishWatcher (talk) 14:09, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Going to have to agree that this isn't quite notable enough, unfortunately. –Juliancolton | Talk 19:24, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
Leaning towards oppose, personally I find the notability lacking, and per some of the points made by Candlewicke above. SpencerT♦Nominate! 21:02, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh well, back to ITN land.

  • some crappy shuttle mission happened
  • some bunch of people died in a forgotten war
  • some crappy shuttle mission happened
  • some non-entity politician got elected
  • some crappy shuttle mission happened
  • some politician said something somebody didn't like
  • some crappy shuttle mission happened
  • some country nobody cares about ceased to exist
  • some crappy shuttle mission happened


Hold the phone! A US Senator who everybody knew was going to die just died.

It's BS. End of.

MickMacNee (talk) 22:04, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

That's the spirit! Keep it up and we might actually shut down ITN/C! *rolls eyes* Therequiembellishere (talk) 22:07, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm an idiot of course. I missed out: some politician/government does something first in their country that has happened in a billion other countries already. Isreal/Japan have a biscuit, and welcome to ITN land. MickMacNee (talk) 22:15, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
Mick, you do realize that many people who have contributed to this particular discussion aren't ITN regulars, and I've seen a couple here who raised their voices against such regulars during the Kennedy debate. Otumba (talk) 22:13, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
I honestly don't know how this makes a blind bit of difference. MickMacNee (talk) 22:17, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
You've talked disparagingly about an "ITN land", and said mockingly "And 'they' say ITN is a farce! Not true I say", but the fact remains that many people here are not regulars and a couple spoke out against ITN regulars earlier. Yet, the consensus here is clearly against putting up Oasis. Therefore, my point was instead of believing ITN has conspired against you, maybe you should consider that the community genuinely does not believe this is worthy of being put up on the front page. Otumba (talk) 22:22, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
ITN land is conspiring against putting anything on the main page that is of any interest to anyone. This basic observation goes beyond the split of Oasis, which was clearly worthy of mention, and which people are clearly just ignoring evidence or facts in favour of some nonsense idea of what this page is for. Nothing, I repeat, nothing, of interest, the does not involve somebody's POV idea that their particular bullshit election/political scandal/war is 'important', will ever make it onto this crappy page, unless of course, it is a shuttle mission transporting 1000 bog rolls to the ISS. MickMacNee (talk) 22:30, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I know there is another section down below but the page is getting too long so i'll post it here. Shuttle is launching in about half an hour. maybe it will be good idea to mention that its 25th anniversary for shuttle. first discovery launch was aug 30, 84. what do u guys think? -- Ashish-g55 03:33, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I think yes (if both source and article confirm this). --candlewicke 03:43, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
well it is 25th anniversary. its not currently mentioned in the article but i think they will mention it in launch statement. lets see... -- Ashish-g55 03:48, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

How about this when it goes and the article is updated (looks good for launch):

NASA launched the Space Shuttle Discovery (STS-128) late Friday night for a resupply and crew rotation mission to the International Space Station. The mission will also deliver the Multi-Purpose Logistics Module Leonardo which will study the physics and chemistry of microgravity. This is Discovery's 37th flight and the 128th shuttle mission. RxS (talk) 03:51, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Shuttle has successfully launched, article is updated. Radagast (talk) 05:03, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
yup they started the launch statement with "discovery's 25th birthday" so might be worth mentioning in the blurb. -- Ashish-g55 05:06, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

If the shuttle has been launched, shouldn't this news go into ITN already? There seems to be consensus and the launch has happened. In any case I support it.--Johnsemlak (talk) 06:09, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Posted -- tariqabjotu 11:38, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


India's maiden mission to moon has ended abruptly. The lunar spacecraft has stopped sending any kind of signals and become dumb. Since this was not expected end of the mission I think the news is ITN worthy. --GPPande 11:13, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

For info, judging by the article they were half way through a 2 year mapping mission of the entire lunar surface, having entered orbit on 8 Nov 08 (and had also successfully deployed and impact probe to the surface). Not bad for a first attempt imho. MickMacNee (talk) 11:25, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Right, a remarkable achivement in the very first place by ISRO folks in getting the world's cheapest mission to moon. However, the abrupt end of the mission was unexpected. Significant event in India's space history. Worthy of ITN. --GPPande 11:28, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
I would support inclusion as well citing the reasons given above.Shinerunner (talk) 13:58, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
The article needs a bit more info on the loss of communication, and as far as I can tell it hasn't received much international attention besides the BBC. One or the other should improve. Joshdboz (talk) 14:06, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
I would support this one as well if it is true. --candlewicke 18:47, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
in some cases like mars rover that stopped working but started again within few days. so i would say wait a day to see what india is doing about it. if it is pronounced dead (in space terms) then post it. i support but wait a bit. -- Ashish-g55 18:52, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Object (but I won't cry if it gets posted): We have far too much fairly routine space stuff on ITN. "Experimental probe fails" (or "Shuttle launches successfully") is hardly the sort of notability we ask for from other subject areas. I realise that these are generally good, well-sourced articles, but I think we should be a bit more discerning as to the general impact before placing them on ITN. Physchim62 (talk) 20:50, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Object too much space stuff. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 23:17, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Oppose I hate to play this card, but if it were an American probe/satellite, would we put it on? Also, as Ashishg55 said, it could come back on in a few days. Deserted Cities 01:05, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
umm we put almost all NASA stuff on. atleast if it has to with space exploration. So yes if it were american it would most definitely go on. so no card to be played stuff is considered international regardless of country exploring it. but in any case give it a day. -- Ashish-g55 01:41, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
Right, the launches go up, but I'm not sure something like this would. But I could be wrong. Also, why do shuttle launches always go up? I've wondered that. Deserted Cities 05:02, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
ISRO has formally called of the mission. Here --GPPande 14:43, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
Oppose. Umm, no. If this was America, it would not be posted either. Space events should only be posted occasionally - and the NASA post is a major anniversary. This failure is neither really unexpected (they have been having huge problems with overheating and malfunctions with several devices on the craft for some time) nor really important outside India.
i dont know where the above person got his info from... we didnt post shuttle launch because of anniversary (read above please) and if this was american mission YES it would be posted. Now that it is confirmed i support. this is quite amazing really... using anti-US argument first to get american items in then using it to keep non-american items out...its getting a little ridiculous. this is space item for goodness sakes. i can understand arguments saying there are too many space items but what does this have to do with US!!??! -- Ashish-g55 17:29, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
Support...this was a high profile success from an emirging space power. It's at EOM now so it's a great chance to highlight our content on the subject. Just the sort of thing that's in ITN's wheelhouse. Or should be anyway...RxS (talk) 17:46, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
If by success you mean failure then you might have a point. Regardless it has no impact outside of India. Moroever India is not a major space power unlike Japan, NASA, China, Russia, ESA.
Please read what I wrote. I called it an emirging power, not a major power. It had a decent amount of success [3], and met many mission objectives:
To construct the complex spacecraft with 11 scientific instruments.
To place the spacecraft in a circular orbit around the moon by orbit raising manoeuvres from a near Earth orbit.
To place the Indian Tricolour on the moon.
To carry out imaging operations and to collect data on the mineral content of the lunar regolith.
To set up the deep space tracking network and implement the operational procedures for travel into deep space.
So, by success I mean success. RxS (talk) 18:06, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
For what it's worth, we put this up when it was originally launched, I believe, back in October. SpencerT♦Nominate! 21:04, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

August 28

ITN candidates for August 28

Kidnapping of Jaycee Lee Dugard‎

How about a mention of Kidnapping of Jaycee Lee Dugard‎, this is getting international media attention so is certainly notable enough. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:10, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

I'd agree, certainly getting world-wide coverage. RxS (talk) 19:14, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Support Comparable to the Fritzl kidnapping. Very exceptional (not to praise it) crime.--Johnsemlak (talk) 19:30, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

How is this for starters? RxS (talk) 19:34, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Jaycee Dugard, who was kidnapped as an 11-year-old in 1991, has been found alive after she walked into the Concord, California Police Department. Police arrested her accused abductor who is believed to have kept her in a tented compound for 18 years and fathered 2 children with her.

Shouldn't the location of Concord be clearly stated? I.e. Concord, California or something?--Johnsemlak (talk) 19:50, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Oppose. I don't think Fritzl was even posted. And not really exceptional since Fritzl has already occurred. Either way, international kidnappings are regular enough and don't usually feature. I just don't see anything encyclopedic about this. --candlewicke 19:47, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Well, I think the Fritzl case should have been posted IMO. In any case, I don't think an 18 year kidnapping case is a 'regular' event. It's pretty unusual and rather newsworthy.Johnsemlak (talk) 19:54, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Newsworthy maybe but encyclopedic? The first of its kind? --candlewicke 19:59, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Must be encyclopedic, we have an article on it. And I doubt it has to be the first of its kind for inclusion, that would disqualify a multitude of significant events. This kind of kidnapping is quite rare, for it's length, children born etc. RxS (talk) 20:07, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
"August 27 she was confirmed to be Jaycee Lee,with a DNA test pending" so what was method used to confirm if the DNA test is still pending. is it supposed to say it hasnt been confirmed yet? or am i just reading it wrong... -- Ashish-g55 20:02, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
I read as they don't see a need for one because the family ID'd her well enough. I'd be surprised if they don't run one anyway. RxS (talk) 20:21, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
(double ec)18 years may be a long time from a western perspective - but not neccesarily from a global perspective. You see documentaries every day that talk about unsolved kidnappings in Russia, Colombia, Somalia etc and these last for years and years. When you factor in the bias often afforded due to Missing white woman syndrome and I think you have a classic case of media sensationalism. Does Wikipedia really want to follow this line? --Daviessimo (talk) 20:04, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
It's a long time from any presepective. It's nearly a quarter of her lifetime, so yes, it's a long time. RxS (talk) 20:08, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Plus, it became more notable because the woman was found. Kidnapping cases in countries like Russia or Columbia may seem less notable because so often the victims are never found. I live in Russia and I certainly can't think of a case of a person being found after 18 years of kidnapping.--Johnsemlak (talk) 20:19, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
I might add that this event is significant enough to be reported in Russia [4] despite Russia being plagued with kidnappings of its own.--Johnsemlak (talk) 20:26, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Does that mean we report it if she were black?--Johnsemlak (talk) 20:29, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
I think you would have to take a step back from what your local and national media are telling you, ignore the headlines and work out if the story they're informing you of is truly significant or unusual. I am inclined to think nice story personally but no for Wikipedia and ITN on this one right now (if there is anything long-term or new to be revealed then who knows). However, others may differ. But when a story such as this features quite high on the front page of a prominent news site you do have to be careful and think about everything logically and encyclopedically and not jump to include anything on ITN too quickly when it has just happened. Then it moves closer to breaking news. --candlewicke 20:28, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm not looking at local or national media. I'm looking at international media and seeing this reported. And I'm considering facts of the case that make it far more notable than than ordinary kidnappings. The woman was kidnapped and held in captivity for 18 years, bore two children, and found. That's a very significant crime and would make a list of notable kidnappings. There are many kidnappings all over the world but the way this one happened over a long period of time and was resolved is not typical.--Johnsemlak (talk) 20:35, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm reading news outlets worldwide, it's a high profile kidnapping story that's already encyclopedic enough for Wikipedia, see Kidnapping of Jaycee Lee Dugard. This section is called In the News and this is a news story being reported globally. It's a really unusual kidnapping and perfectly accepible for inclusion here. There's nothing that says we don't include breaking news items. RxS (talk) 20:38, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
It's not a matter of whether we "don't include breaking news items". It's a matter of whether we include every breaking news item. Sure, all items on ITN are breaking news, but just being breaking news alone doesn't make something's a "necessary but not sufficient" criterion. If we included everything that was breaking news, the ITN box would be a lot bigger than it currently is. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 20:43, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
No one said that we include all breaking news storys. I said we include some of them, which we do clearly. This story has enough coverage to justifly inclusion. It seems to have happened in the wrong part of the world though. RxS (talk) 21:05, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
We did not include Fritzl case which was a lot more tragic and got lot more attention. including this without proving this is more notable to me sounds very iffy. global media tends to pick up same story but for ITN it needs to be notable and bias free (as much as possible). as stated above with Missing white woman syndrome putting this up mean we just followed media blindly which makes ITN a news source. it may not be stated that we dont put breaking news but it is stated that wikipedia is not news-- Ashish-g55 20:44, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Not including the Fritzl case astounds me frankly. That was one of the world's biggest news items for several days, if not the biggest. But regarding this case, it seems that like the Ted Kennedy case we're too afraid to post a news item that has anything to do with the US or Western counties or whatever for fear of appearing biased. Also some opposers are making presumptions about other posters' biases (e.g. 'I think you would have to take a step back from what your local and national media are telling you'). The missing white woman syndrome argument does not consider the facts and worthiness of this case. On the contrary, it makes it appear only a non-white male's kidnapping is worthy of reporting. --Johnsemlak (talk) 20:54, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
That's my take-away as well. RxS (talk) 21:05, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Im from the UK and weve had non stop coverage of this all day on all news channels / in the headlines of all news reports. So the claim about "local and national media" are nonsense. I too am stunned that the Fritzl case did not get added to news, i hate to imagine what occupied the ITN section those days. The missing white woman syndrome comment was rather offensive, especially as this is about an 11 year old child kidnapped and raped. BritishWatcher (talk) 20:59, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
You seem to be missing the entire point about the missing white woman syndrome: would we be reading about this, or discussing this, if Dugard were black? Indian? A boy? rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 21:09, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes, yes and yes. RxS (talk) 21:13, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
@Rjanag That's a horribly biased view of other people's world-view. It presumes that media outlets and readers are racist beyond any objectivity. There may be a small element of truth in that but to presume that that is the only reason this is being reported is heavily biased in and of itself. It's also a lazy argument that simply presumes people are prejudiced here and doesn't examine the facts of the event.--Johnsemlak (talk) 21:18, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
OK, Maybe a more important issue here is, were this to be a little black or indian boy, would it receive as much attention in the media - and if the answer was no, would you still feel it was being covered enough to put it up. My concern here is that when you blindly follow what the media do, you inherently build upon their biases. It is for that reason that Wikipedia:News articles states "A violent crime, sensationalized event or accidental death may be notable enough to reporters and news editors to justify coverage in the news, but not be of encyclopedic importance". --Daviessimo (talk) 21:17, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
(ec)eh? u really think worldwide media would follow a missing indian male... This has nothing to do with western or US news. The point is ITN doesnt follow media on everything. We know through MWWS that there is a select group that gets reported a LOT more often than other so putting this up on ITN just shows that ITN also wants to follow MWWS like other media. -- Ashish-g55 21:19, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
If an Indian boy were missing, no it woudln't be reported. If he were found after 18 years of being kidnapped and abused, it would quite possibly make the BBC. Quite likely actually.--Johnsemlak (talk) 21:30, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
I think Daviessimo's comment above pretty much says it all. News papers will add the news if they see that BBC is following and other few news papers are following. then more will add it as they dont want to be left out. soon it becomes a global news. but does it improve wikipedia as encyclopedia? no it does not. i can find alongside the kidnapping news many other news thats also reported on alsmost all sites and newspapers but that doesnt mean we must add it here too. -- Ashish-g55 21:39, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
(multiple edit conflicts) Well, like I said, I'm going to stick with an oppose for now. There ought to be no hurry after all. I can recall at least one child abuse/incest incident which had comparatively minor attention yet was (as tends to be the way with these cases) no less horrific so I guess you can't be too careful. Statements such as "an 11 year old child kidnapped and raped" leads to everything getting emotional but having an emotional attachment to something doesn't tend to help matters either. The comment by me which was singled out above is how I view all, not just this one and it is not a presumption about anyone or anything so hopefully I've clarified that. You're perfectly free to have a different view in my opinion but I'll hope to try to put my nonsense to some better use. --candlewicke 21:27, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
No i think dismissing something about an 11 year old girl that was kidnapped and raped as " Missing white woman syndrome" is a statement that doesnt help. It was deeply offensive, and had this happened to a black or asian girl in the USA it would of got just as much attention. After the disgrace over if Kennedys death should be included i expected there to be some stupid rejections, i didnt expect it to become so offensive and get into a bloody race debate though. BritishWatcher (talk) 21:43, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Agree completely. Many objections to this news item don't concentrate on the facts of the case and instead focus on bias of Western media (which is not Wikipedia's to correct). This strongly reminds me of the Ted Kennedy incident. Objectors saying 'Western Bias, US centric' and little attention to the objective facts at hand.--Johnsemlak (talk) 21:53, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
No one said we have to correct everything. But not participating in bias is different from correcting bias. In Wiki-speak, it's Don't add sewage to the already polluted pond. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 21:55, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
But that misses my point, which is in discussing whether media coverage of this is biased, we're not looking at the facts of this case which either make or don't make this newsworthy. The logic seems to be if she were white, it's not; if she were black, it's worthy. No consideration of how long she was kidnapped--18 years, that she was found after that long time, and that she bore two children in captivity. Those are the real facts that should be weighed in considering the notability of this case. Not where she is from or what race she is. On one thing I would agree is that this is more dramatic because it is a woman kidnapped rather than a male but certainly doesn't necessarily mean bias.--Johnsemlak (talk) 22:04, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
lol i love how there is a page for everything on wiki -- Ashish-g55 21:57, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
It wasn't dismissing, and there's no reason for it to be offended. It is widely known and reported that kidnaps and rapes of young girls get far more attention that kidnaps and rapes of boys or people of other races. That's the very reason this case has gotten so much attention; if it were about someone else, I would venture to guess that none of us would ever have heard about it. Likewise, I wasn't saying that you are racist; I was saying that the media, as we all know, is very biased. Perhaps you should actually read the article, and the sources therein, before making nonsensical comments like the one above. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 21:50, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
What does any "disgrace over if Kennedys death" mean or have to do with this case... can you be more specific as I can't find anything in the article? --candlewicke 22:01, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
i think he means that because it took longer to put kennedy's death on main page as it was opposed by many that we all disgraced his death. damn if we think of it that way then within last 2 months we opposed like 30 different deaths of fairly important people. talk above a massive disgrace pile up. but ya i dont see the point of bringing that in this coversation. the arguments here have nothing to do with kennedy at all. -- Ashish-g55 22:06, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
I don't think the poster meant that Wikipedia disgraced Ted Kennedy's death. I'm pretty sure it was a reference to a common opinion that the failure to post Ted Kennedy's death in ITN quickly (It took hours) reflected badly on Wikipedia. There's discussion on it in several places, including below in the August 26 section--you need to click 'show' at the Ted Kennedy portion. I admit that that incident brought me to these discussions and I am trying to stay involved.--Johnsemlak (talk) 22:13, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
(ec) Well seeing as what I have said appears to have been misinterpreted, all I can do is explain again my concern. This item was nominated with a clear focus on the fact that is was being widely reported in the media. My issue with this justification is that any biases inherent in the media reporting this are transfered through into Wikipedia. The whole white women issue has nothing do with implying racism, rather it highlights how media organisations are well known for there tendency to have biases in media coverage. The issue being raised is, if this happened exactly the same, but to a black girl, in say Nigeria (which is another large, English speaking country) would the media give it the same attention? If the answer to that question is no, then by attempting to justify the inclusion of this item based upon what the media do, you are inherently continuing a bias that exists in the media into Wikipedia, something that shouldn't be happening. If you remove all consideration for the breadth of coverage in the media at look at this completely objectively, the question is, what is the current encyclopaedic value of this kidnapping over any other kidnapping? --Daviessimo (talk) 22:16, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Media attention is one but not the only reason this has been nominated. There's also the unusual specifics of the crime. Some objectors to this are focusing solely on the possibility that media attention is a result of Western bias IMO. OK, it's a real issue, but based on conversations I've followed the last week here there seems to be a near blanket over any news item that has a hint of Western bias or US centrism.--Johnsemlak (talk) 22:23, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Well anyway, I wasn't online for any of that so am not fully familiar with what went on and anyone who hasn't witnessed it is thereby, I imagine, left wondering who or what "if kennedy" is or was when they're trying to make sense of this one. But I'd be concerned by the "common opinion" that something should be posted immediately and that it would be a disgrace that it should take hours. ITNs are regularly posted hours and days after they occur and that sort of immediate recklessness had Michael Jackson posted as dead before it was certain and then changed to "reported dead" on the Main Page instead of being removed thus contradicting the whole process. The same sort of recklessness led to something being posted on changes in the Chinese language recently, something which later proved to be inaccurate. It is not an attack on those who did it but why is there a "common opinion" that one should be rushed? So I would ask, on this and any nomination, why the rush? Is it not better to be certain and consistent rather than to respond to our emotions, e.g. "my favourite singer/politician has died" or "a child was raped" and demand it be posted without delay because the TV is bombarding you with extreme images? Why is it justifiable to post some nominations immediately when most must wait? But Daviessimo makes a good point above—how is this encyclopedic? It may very well be but nobody (I think) has explained how yet. --candlewicke 22:44, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
I agree with all of the above. This isn't just about media bias; it's about whether this is encyclopedic, appropriate, and important. No one doubts that the story is interesting. But ITN, as far as I know, is generally only for things that have a major impact on something in the world: major political changes and wars, major natural disasters, major events in sport or entertainment (such as Usain Bolt's WR that's on the main page right now) that affect lots of people. This story, while interesting, doesn't really have any major effect on the world, as far as I can tell. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 22:50, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
How does Usain Bolt's record qualify as having a major effect on the world? It's interesting...but has no major impact on anything. And yet, there it is. That's the disconnect and the sure sign that something else is going on other than ITN guidelines. RxS (talk) 23:10, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
That's an exact thought I had earlier. I think nearly every item reported in ITN could be argued as having little impact on most people in the world. Admittedly, this makes choosing what is significant news difficult. I appreciate the need to try to be unbiased. In any case, IMO in the ITN debates I have witnessed recently there is a tendency to apply a more stringent test on events that are US based or Western based than events elsewhere, in the attempt to avoid US or Western bias. I would guess that if the same kidnapping had happened in India or Nigeria and ITN editors were aware of it, it would be posted without any accusations of bias.--Johnsemlak (talk) 23:33, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
@Johnsemlak did u ever think maybe its the opposite? that any opposes to a western item has people accusing opposers of having some anti-US agenda as a way of justifying the item. this item as stated many times above has nothing to do with US bias. this is a global problem with media where a small group getting kidnapped is reported heavily. and all arguments above state that wikipedia should be avoiding that. also candlewicke is right. just last week we had 6 items waiting for 2 days. i dont understand why things need to be posted instantly without proper consensus,updates or even sometimes confirmation of the actual event. -- Ashish-g55 22:52, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
I agree there isn't a rush on this particular piece. It could use further debate. It's also a developing news item. The Ted Kennedy issue was a different matter as there was certainly no debate that he was actually dead. But on this topic, I think it's simply important to weigh the facts of this case. Also, you saying that the 'global problem with the nedia', while possibly true, is not a NPOV--it's highly subjective. I would agree with the Davidissimo that it's hard to imagine a scenario like this happening in Nigeria and getting reported by western media, but there are many reasons for that (how feasible is it to report in Nigeria where it's dangerous for westerners and there are political obstacles). But that shouldn't mean that we ignore this item. I'll repeat that I think it's a highly unusual crime that lasted a long period of time, comparable to the Fritzl case (which I'm still astounded was not an ITN news piece--that's a major failure. Ok, we can't go back and correct it but using it as an argument against reporting this event is very unreasonable). --Johnsemlak (talk) 23:10, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
See here under 18 March (beneath Natasha Richardson and, by that topic's standards, a quite short discussion on some sport or another) for Fritzl's trial and its several opposes—including a "strong no". That's why the verdict wasn't posted. --candlewicke 23:55, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the link. That said, that was when he was convicted. The bigger event was when the news surfaced in the first place.--Johnsemlak (talk) 00:19, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
As long as we're comparing cases here, I'll repeat my question from above (it was not rhetorical): How does Usain Bolt's record qualify as having a major effect on the world? What beyond being interesting justifies it? RxS (talk) 00:22, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
A large world record in a major sporting event is far more newsworthy than this because it sets a new bar that people will be talking about and comparing things to for years to come. It may be the case that this sport is something you are not very interested in, but the fact of the matter is that a record like this still is influential. Something like the Dugard story, though, is far less influential, and is little more than an interesting story. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 03:53, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
That record has been broken 3 times in the last year and 6 times in the last 10 years. How influential can it be? The Dugard story will affect how police follow-up on kidnappings, child safety and how sex offenders are treated/tracked for the long's already starting. RxS (talk) 20:40, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
I am not even sure i want to explain this but i will give it a shot. When posting sports events effect and interest are pretty much same thing... i really thought everyone knew that. i dont really have an example of a sport event having "major effect" on people. Sports are all about interest. The 100m is nicknamed fastest man in world so whenever anyone breaks that record its a very BIG deal. -- Ashish-g55 01:23, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
I wonder if there was to be a suggestion of no more sports on ITN. Since they don't usually affect very many people. But I imagine some people would be displeased. To put it mildly. --candlewicke 02:10, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
lol howard below will be displeased for sure. -- Ashish-g55 02:59, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Lemme put it mildly: No effing way. Not enough international importance nor coverage. –Howard the Duck 02:37, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
There's lot's of international coverage, please read this section for examples and links. And as should be obvious from what is consistantly included, international importance is not a necessary component. RxS (talk) 03:12, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
On the (the international edition) this isn't the top story. I'd want us to quit on the roll coll of links and focus the amount of coverage it is getting from the media, not just the number of media outlets that have an article on this. –Howard the Duck 03:16, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Who in the world ever claimed that it was the top story? Who cares how a single outlet treats it? The amount of coverage worldwide is considerable. Both straight news and followup. The media is all over this story, both in terms of numbers and depth. I understand that you don't want this included, but your logic doesn't hold up at all. RxS (talk) 20:32, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Note that ITN says "international importance or interest." I'm measuring "international importance or interest" by the importance the media is giving the story, in my case, I measure it if it is mentioned prominently on a website, or it appears as a headline in a newspaper, or it is the first one mentioned in a TV news report, etc. I've come to quit the roll call of links that has been used before here since it doesn't represent that "international importance or interest" signifies. If we'd follow by these number of links rule, A LOT of stories will get be "international importance or interest", most of them will be U.S. stories and you people won't like that. –Howard the Duck 12:53, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Support - Huge story that is a nice commentary on violence against women in a major developed country. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 03:53, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
    • No offense intended, but how is this story a commentary on 'violence against women' in general? It's an isolated incident, committed by a criminal, condemned by society, and clearly extraordinary (as evidenced by the fact that people are so interested in it)—doesn't seem like a commentary on this society or country in general, it's just one event. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 03:55, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
      • None taken. It's just a nice microcosm that illustrates a larger issue. I'm new here, but aren't most ITN things about one event? - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 03:58, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
        • What I was trying to say is, I don't see how this illustrates a larger issue. Does the article say anything about how this incident sheds light on American society, or on how big an issue kidnappings are, or anything else like that? rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 07:32, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose I don't wish to be harsh here, and I don't personally doubt,nor do I deny the horrific nature of what is said to have happened, but at the moment all there is is an allegation. The only thing that we know incontrovertibly is that a person who was reported missing 18 years ago has been found. Let the process of law take place, then, if the story is still in the public eye, we might report it. It is a well established principle of ITN that we report the outcome of legal cases, not their instigation. Kevin McE (talk) 09:25, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
*Support - Since it's pretty clear from recent event that ITN is a busted process that seems to be out of whack with the rest of wikipedia - who's to say that still holds true? --Cameron Scott (talk) 10:03, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
*Does that mean all arguments against can be ignored (since they might no longer apply) and just post whatever is nominated even if it is an allegation or might turn out not to be true? --candlewicke 20:13, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
TheStar. i find this interesting. just noticed as top news on star today. -- Ashish-g55 00:40, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
I wonder does this count for much (it is in the news at regular intervals, so much so that they haven't bothered to explain who she is in the first sentence). --candlewicke 18:32, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Oppose. Perhaps 100 million women are missing from the world. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:38, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

She's not missing. RxS (talk) 23:33, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
Who? I think one of them is. :-o --candlewicke 00:30, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Burma violence and refugees

I started a discussion at Talk:Burma#Fighting and refugees suggesting to add something to the article on this; it's gotten a fair amount of coverage, I have two news articles in that discussion and lower on this very page there are three more (search the page for "Burma"). The NYT article claims that this is the biggest fighting there in 20 years, and as many as 10,000 (some claim 30,000) refugees have fled to Yunnan province, China. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 15:41, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Hm... according to the Bangkok Post article, the violence began on August 8 and much of the refugee movement was 8–12, so maybe it's a bit old... on the other hand, though, none of this seems to have been widely reported until Aug 26–7. I'll try to scour the articles some more to see if there's been any new development or anything, or if the media has just be slow on the uptake... rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 15:50, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

(out) I've made an article now, and here's a blurb:

rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 18:21, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Single Molecule Picture

The detailed chemical structure of a single molecule has been imaged for the first time. Pretty cool and encyclopedic. i guess Molecule or some sort of atomic imaging page could be updated if there isnt a page for this already somewhere. what do u guys think. Images are right here. They are on flickr and IBM states as long as a simple credit is given it is free so i believe its suitable for main page too. -- Ashish-g55 13:00, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

  • Support - very interesting and encyclopedic, would fit nicely and give an intriguing link for folks to follow to some areas that might not necessarily be regularly seen in ITN. Tony Fox (arf!) 15:47, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
here it says "Each use should be accompanied by the credit line and notice, Courtesy of IBM Research - Zurich. Unauthorized use not permitted. Copying of images for further distribution or commercial use is prohibited without the express written consent of IBM." so if u put that credit and it is non-commercial it can be used. i am not positive about further distribution remark though... maybe someone else can comment on this. but yes the image is not in public domain though so now i am not sure if it will be allowed on main page. although its image of a molecule... u would think IBM wants it to be made known as long as it was credited to IBM. -- Ashish-g55 18:02, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
It can't. We require that the image be completely free from restrictions on re-use ("Images which are listed as for non-commercial use only, by permission, or which restrict derivatives are unsuitable for Wikipedia and will be deleted on sight, unless they are used under fair use. from Wikipedia:Image use policy). It is still a good candidate for ITN though and I support it - Dumelow (talk) 18:13, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
I am pretty sure this would qualify under fair use but we have this weird no fair use image policy just for main page. sigh. this is one of those images that everyone should see, its quite amazing really. -- Ashish-g55 18:19, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Support since it is encyclopedic and this is an encyclopedia after all. --candlewicke 19:56, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Well i am guessing the article to update would be Atomic force microscope or IBM Zurich Research Laboratory... I am going to try and update the microscope one soon as the other one got the soapbox tag on it. -- Ashish-g55 20:11, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
after reading more i dont think i wanna edit the article lol. not qualified enough to talk about AFMs. i dropped a note and hopefully this will get updated and posted within a couple days. -- Ashish-g55 20:46, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
I would support inclusion if an article is updated. The AFM article would be the place, which need a description of the CO attachment process. Unfortunately I don't have access to the Science article atm. Modest Genius talk 15:50, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Moldovan parliament
The first attempt to elect (the parliament has three attempts max) will be made on 28 August - Dumelow (talk) 14:34, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
This is notable, interesting and informative. Should be added when there are developments, i see most recent news from AP 20 mins ago is they have elected a speaker. [5] BritishWatcher (talk) 14:38, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Space Shuttle Discovery (STS-128)
First Friday attempt scrubbed, pointed toward 2nd late Friday launch. RxS (talk) 19:47, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
Id support the launch (when it happens) being added, is very notable and space launches always get mass media attention from around the world. BritishWatcher (talk) 14:34, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Second that...especially since the shuttle program is winding down. --Smashvilletalk 20:02, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Reading Rainbow
  • Reading Rainbow is already updated with the information on its 26-year run ending today and that it's the third longest-running kids show on PBS. --fmmarianicolon | Talk 14:24, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose I doubt this has gained much media attention (apart from coverage by PBS itself). I may be reading the intro to that article wrong but it doesnt make sense to me. "Reading Rainbow is an American children's television series aired by PBS from June 6, 1983 until November 10, 2006, that encourages reading among children. The show will cease airing on PBS on Friday, August 28, 2009 after 26 years on the air." What happened on November 10 2006? BritishWatcher (talk) 14:28, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
would have supported if it was longest. 3rd longest is a lot less appealing. -- Ashish-g55 15:08, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Oppose If it were Sesame Street I'd agree but this is not on the same level. I imagine there isn't precedent for what TV show cancellations are sufficiently newsworthy for ITN.--Johnsemlak (talk) 15:36, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose. From what I gather from the article, the show supposedly last aired on November 10, 2006. Is it possible today was just the day they stuck a fork in it? --Smashvilletalk 18:34, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
  • A link to which PBS might have helped avoid me end up here but oppose all the same. --candlewicke 20:07, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

August 27

ITN candidates for August 27

since death criteria isnt about head of state for politicians anymore i think this qualifies. he seems to have had fair amount of influence in iraq. support after a little more expansion. -- Ashish-g55 21:55, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Support - Notable, widely reported and helps with the diversity agenda. BritishWatcher (talk) 21:59, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Support as I can't find any good reason to oppose this if it is expanded. --candlewicke 21:40, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

End of the Darfur war
Support. This conflict has generated major international attention, even if its smoldering finish has not attracted much attention. Joshdboz (talk) 16:02, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
Support also. However, the wording needs to be carefully selected because there remains ongoing fighting between rival groups on a smaller scale and, as such, we don't want to imply that all fighting has ceased --Daviessimo (talk) 16:07, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
Maybe appending "though smaller clashes between rival forces continues" would be a way to handle that? Tony Fox (arf!) 16:10, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
Also support, but perhaps word it as "declared over" or something of that nature in order to cover the smaller skirmishes. --Smashvilletalk 16:19, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
Well, to borrow from Bush's Mission Accomplished: "Major combat/conflict/fighting in the six-year war in Sudan's Darfur region has ended, according to the UN." -- Joshdboz (talk) 16:59, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
Support--Johnsemlak (talk) 18:03, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose I was going to support this as it seems very notable, but this is just a military leaders opinion, in the very article its challenged as unhelpful by an analyst. To put on the front page the war is over or even "effectively over" as described in the article would be misleading and confusing. Also i cant find other coverage of this statement, things seem to be progressing but not enough yet if violence is on going still and no sign of a peace deal. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:22, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose: Too Darfur-centric. Too much coverage of Darfur as is. seicer | talk | contribs 19:05, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
Is that a joke? It has been months since Darfur has even been suggested on ITN/C. I support, but agree that it shouldn't try to say the fighting is completely over. Therequiembellishere (talk) 19:44, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
Technically, yes it is (in reply to the stupid "US-centric" comments made below), but I do oppose because the issue has not been resolved, noted in the article and in the comments preceding mine. seicer | talk | contribs 19:48, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Young sailor
To be honest I'm not sure about this. As far as I'm aware, we didn't put up Zac Sunderland when he broke the record not all that long ago. Also the governing body of sailing no longer recognise youngest sailor as a record so this record is only going to included in the Guiness book of records --Daviessimo (talk) 07:24, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose - A good accomplishment but the same could be said for many records broken every day. Would be a good item for an "On this day" next year to mark his success. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:25, 27 August 2009 (UTC)



Support, especially if the "variety of sanctions against India by a number of major states" from the article is true. However, the article requires some work on its references and lack of them. --candlewicke 21:48, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

August 26

ITN candidates for August 26

Ted Kennedy
Further comment should be taken to the talk page, the death criteria page or ANI
(taken from talk:Main Page[7]) Should be on the news section (talk) 07:33, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
(taken from talk:Main Page[8])I would agree especially since Les Paul's and Corazon Aquino's deaths were on there. Spiderone 07:45, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
OK, this is where we see this blind US-centricism creeping in again. You can't really compare Kennedy to Les Paul (who was one of, if not the most important pioneer of 20th century music - remember without Les Paul there is no Beatles et al.) or Aquino (who was a former head of state). What makes Ted Kennedy more notable than any of the other 99 US senators? What makes a US Senator as important as a former Philippine head of state or nobel prize winning South Korean president? The only response that evers seems to come up, is because they are American and the US is apparently the centre of the universe, lord of all nations etc etc. Unless they have had a major impact on politics then political deaths should be reserved for current and former political leaders. For that reason I'm going to oppose --Daviessimo (talk) 08:23, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
I am going to support because the loss of Ted Kennedy means the US Senate no longer has a filibuster Democratic block and won't for months due to Massachusetts laws that require a certain downtime before another senator is elected. This could have huge implications with the US health care bill that is currently being considered. While not world news, it will definitely have ramifications in the US. And honestly, I've never even heard of Les Paul, no offense. I also am not a huge fan of music.
Darius von Whaleyland, Great Khan of the Barbarian Horde 08:51, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Oppose. If it were any other country...  Cargoking  talk  08:58, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Although... it has had a lot of international attention [9].  Cargoking  talk  09:13, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
He was much more notable than most of the Senators. He was presented with both Honorary Knighthood by QEII and Merit of Honor in Chile. Its also currently the lead story on BBC, ABC (Australia), Al-Jazeera, AFP, La Repubblica, plus (I'd assume) many more. Deserted Cities 09:20, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
The update is way too short.  Cargoking  talk  09:23, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
How much of an update is needed? Deserted Cities 09:27, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
A solid paragraph or two (I think). " the traditional cutoff for 'enough' has been around three complete, referenced and well-formed paragraphs.", from WP:ITNMP  Cargoking  talk  09:31, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Support. Ted Kennedy is obviously internationally notable, the sources from Deserted Cities say it all. This is no ordinary Senator. (Note that I opposed putting up Al Franken's seating, and that's from my home state.) I actually think this will help the health care bill by galvanizing its supporters... Grandmasterka 09:35, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Oppose US-centric, non-leader --Stephen 09:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
(←) He need not be a leader per Wikipedia:ITNMP#Deaths, only that he be in high ranking office of power, and had a significant contribution/impact on the country/region. Also, only a paragraph is needed per the same criteria. Deserted Cities 09:43, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Oppose. I don't think all the criteria are met here. --Tone 10:14, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Why not? According to the death criteria, only one of the three must be met. He was a Senator, thus a high-ranking official. His impact speaks for itself. Deserted Cities 10:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
As I said before, if it were any other country.  Cargoking  talk  10:23, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Support. But it's not. This is the last of the Kennedy brothers who just died. We could of course discuss this for a week or so, then put it up in the "In the news" section, and make complete and utter fools of ourselves. Lampman (talk) 10:47, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Lampman, do you support US centralism? US centralism is an increasingly growing problem.  Cargoking  talk  11:22, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Ted Kennedy was not just a senator. He's been one of the highest-profile figures in American politics for 45 years. Your cries of US-centrism are meaningless; I propose there's a bias towards meaningless pap (cricket games and beauty pageants) and we should counter this bias with stories of political and economic significance. Noisalt (talk) 11:57, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Strong support. No. 1 topic in almost all countries around the world, for example BBC News,, Le Monde. --bender235 (talk) 12:02, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Strong support. Influential figure, last of his generation in a well-known dynasty, familiar name worldwide. Radagast (talk) 12:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
He was without a doubt the most influenful United States Senator of the past 50 years. Front page in almost every newspaper in the world explains it all. Not every American politician gets that treatment. Support Secret account 12:19, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
reaction from politicians from around the world Secret account 12:22, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
OK look, people keep using the argument that it is headline news across the world as an argument for this to go up, but with deaths this is not a valid measurement of importance. Like I've said a hundred times before a person is only notable for what they have done, not who they are - like I always say, apply the Tim Berners-Lee test - most people have never heard of him, but no-one can ever doubt the importance he has had in modern history. Yes Ted Kennedy is well known, but this is because of who he is and not because as a senator he has changed the face of American politics. Also I would just like to highlight a problematic fallacy with some of the argument which are claiming that the story is headline news around the world. I know from how the BBC works that if you live outside the UK, when you visit the BBC website you are taken to the BBC World home page and not the proper BBC homepage (which is not .com) The top story on the proper BBC is not this story but rather a story relating the violence between West Ham and Millwall fans last night. I suspect the same is the case for other websites around the world and, as such, just because what you see is one thing, doesn't mean that is what people in the country in question are seeing --Daviessimo (talk) 12:55, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Well, the Times of London currently has Kennedy's death as the lead story in it's UK edition, or at least that's what I'm seeing sitting in Russia. Also, I would think that if the BBC Global website has it as the lead story, that would be stronger grounds than the UK version. The BBC Global site is global in outreach, therefore more relevant to what is in ITN than the UK version.--Johnsemlak (talk) 17:37, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
We have quite a simple criteria with a politician death (does not matter if it is stated somewhere or not). We post either head of state or former head of state. As i see it kennedy was neither and i dont remember (or have read) him having a worldwide impact to make an exception. strong oppose. we would fill the ITN with deaths everyday otherwise. but it doesnt really matter when it comes to US news. some admin always seems to post it either way -- Ashish-g55 13:04, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
lol this is hilarious. while i was typing the above some admin posted it. in what world is all of the above a proper consensus... -- Ashish-g55 13:07, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Posted for better or for worse. I'm personally on the fence about whether this is an appropriate addition, leaning on oppose, but the death criteria appears to permit it, even if it shouldn't have. -- tariqabjotu 13:11, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Death criteria also does not state that it is ok to post a US senator where as not ok to post Canadian primeres, Indian chief of states etc etc. We quite literally expanded the field for US deaths by 99 people based on BBC posting it on their front page. As Daviessimo just said they had Millwall story last night on front page... we dont post every front page news because that is not our criteria. we are not a news source. we should be trying to remove as much bias from ITN as we can not add more by expanding a US only death field... this is more US centric in my opinion than Sonia Sotomayer making it on ITN like 3 times for same news story. -- Ashish-g55 13:42, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
"We quite literally expanded the field for US deaths by 99 people based on BBC posting it on their front page." I don't think that's what happened. -- tariqabjotu 13:56, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
if this stayed up then yes we did. at next senator death people will come and show us the diff for this addition. and there is absolutely nothing that can be done then since logically if u post this one u will have to post others too. -- Ashish-g55 14:10, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Um... no, not really, but okay... -- tariqabjotu 14:20, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
i know what u mean but i only speak from experience. too many items get posted because we posted the last one. there will never be a good enough reason to not post the next one if we post this. -- Ashish-g55 14:28, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
(←)Strong OpposeThis is happening time and again. Every time anything happens in the US, its popped up in ITN. Just because all the news website cover this doesn't make it ITN worthy - the sheer fact that anything is US is closely followed by all major news websites (some of them are even from the US) is not an excuse. All the factors mentioned above: Kennedy Family, Health Bill, Majority in the US Senate etc., are issues which mean ZILCH in the rest of the world. The criteria specifically says that a death can be added to ITN only if there is consensus in the group. With so many oppositions, we definitely don't have a consensus. Admin: Please remove the posting from the ITN till a consensus is reached. Again, remember (as the critiera states) we are not a news website. Its not mandatory that we need to be quick posting stuff. -Natrajdr (talk) 14:04, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Every major international news source, including many blogs, have this news on it. Everything from NPR to FOX to the BBC have it as their top headline, with images. Also see 6000+ results on Google News and Google News top stories. No-brainer Support. Gosox5555 (talk) 14:11, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Support INT debates seem to attract both those too America-centric and those too America-paranoid. There's one reason that this story can be found on the front pages of most major news sites around the world, and that's because the Kennedy mystique is not limited to the US by any means. (As for international coverage, this is one of the top stories on Times of India and Xinhua) Joshdboz (talk) 14:12, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Well, for my 10 cents, I would have opposed. I thank Wikipedia for showing that Kennedy had died, as I have long been interested in his life and Wikipedia's information spurned me to turn on the TV and learn more, but he is a US senator. An important senator, yes, but he's not had a great worldwide impact in what he did during his life. I will go so far as to say I believe some US-centricism is behind the posting of Kennedy's death; I find it hard to believe something on the death of Tony Benn will be posted. Otumba (talk) 14:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Oppose. Not in a major office, nor has he ever been, and the death was hardly unexpected. No major ramifications either. Modest Genius talk 14:23, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
The only correct thing you said is that the death was not unexpected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs) 18:46, 26 August 2009
US Senator is not a major office of state, regardless of how long he held it. I was referring to positions such as head of state, head of government, or in charge of a major government ministry (eg foreign minister, treasury minister). Ted Kennedy never held any of those; he was an important legislator, but there are many of those, in many countries. Modest Genius talk 19:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Strong Support Highly infulential and clearly world-famous statesman and historical figure (in both US and Irish politics, at the very least). Clearly Wikipedia has a vocal anti-US minority who wants to silence any US stories on the front page, but in this case the man is clearly an icon far beyond the borders of his state. It is quite silly to see "In The News" not featuring a story on which President Obama is to address the nation. (talk) 14:48, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Strong Support. I find this a ridiculous debate. Ted Kennedy is clearly a interntionally notable person. Posting it does not mean we have to put any US senator's death. His death is the lead story in just about every major news outlet of note (compared with the Ashes, which was not). Add nearly all Russian news media to the list of media that are covering this. I teach at a British school in Russia and my British and Russian colleagues informed me that Ted was dead right when it happened. This is a major international news item--end of story.--Johnsemlak (talk) 16:28, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Why does it take so long to add this? It seems like it just turns out as User:Lampman said: if we discuss this for a week, we're going to make ourselfs utter fools. --bender235 (talk) 15:07, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Actually, it was added a few hours ago. However, after a short while being up, it was removed on account of there not actually being a consensus here to add it. I suspect, seeing how this discussion is going, that no consensus will be reached to put it up. There's just too much opposition. Otumba (talk) 15:13, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Oppose. Too US-centric. Non-notable politician. The only reason this is getting so much attention in Anglophone media is because the man was American. Offliner (talk) 15:15, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
If he is non-notable would you care to start the AfD? Joshdboz (talk) 16:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Cheeky, Joshdboz. :) Otumba (talk) 16:55, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Support One of the most prolific and longest-serving senators in U.S. history; his death has made international headlines, so this isn't U.S.-centric. It appears as though in trying to avoid a U.S. bias, ITN is actually becoming biased against U.S. topics. Cheers, Raime 15:20, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Strong Support. As has been mentioned above, the largest significance that Senator Kennedy's death holds is in the fact that the Democrats no longer have a filibuster-proof supermajority in the United States Senate, and will not have one again until January of next year, barring a change in Massachusetts law to allow a temporary appointment until after the special election. This means that the healthcare reform legislation currently dominating the national discussion in the U.S. will likely be on hold until then. This alone would probably be notable enough for ITN. Senator Franken's belated election victory was enough to make ITN if I recall, largely due to its supermajority implications, so I don't see why the loss of that supermajority would be any less noteworthy. The fact that Senator Kennedy was the last of a terrifically important dynasty in American politics, was universally recognized as being one of the most effective United States Senators in the Twentieth Century, and was a highly controversial figure in American politics due to his personal life as much as his political positions (he is invoked as a bogeyman by the right as much as, if not more than, he is invoked as a hero by the left), makes this a no-brainer. Here's a thought on a blurb:

Out of curiosity, why is the loss of the Democratic super-majority of any interest to the world? Wikipedia caters to the world, not just to an American audience. Otumba (talk) 17:17, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Extremely strong 'death to America' oppose. Come on, why are we discussing this? We all hate the US. We want more British-centric stuff on ITN. When is the next rugby match that we can put on ITN? Nutmegger (talk) 17:12, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

  • Strong Support What's with all the crazy anti-americanism? This is a wildly internationally notable individual, easily the most famous US senator, both for his incredibly wide-ranging legislative accomplishments (he is one of the world's most accomplished legislators) and his incredibly famous family. His immigration reforms of 1965 reshaped more than just America forever. His death fundamentally alters the composition of the legislature of the United States of America. This is rightfully one of the top news stories around the world today. It is sad to see anti-Americanism is more important than encyclopedic judgment at Wikipedia.

There's 347 Google News results for Ted Kennedy in France, 589 in Spain, and only 525 in the UK. This is not a lot when compared to the 11,805 in the US. This suggests to me that this does not have much worldwide impact or interest. (I know Google isn't an entirely reliable indicator, but it can be used as a small barometer).
As further evidence, Les Paul gets 8,472 French hits—a massive increase compared to Kennedy.
This, as well as the reasons given above, causes me to oppose the inclusion of this item. Dendodge T\C 17:33, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Les Paul's death was noted basically nowhere, while Kennedy's death is the No. 1 topic around the globe. I am from Germany, and Kennedy's death is reported as No. 1 news in every TV channel. --bender235 (talk) 17:56, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
I just did a search of Ted Kennedy at Google news UK and got over 9500 hits. Same with Google News Australia. Over 1000 hits (less, but a lot) at Google Noticias Mexico.--Johnsemlak (talk) 17:59, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Just for everyone who are arguing about super majority or whatever it is called. i just want to know if we should expect another item when they do get super majority again (which they just recieved after Al franken who did go up on ITN). or if they lose it again due to some other death or resignation then again when they regain it? because i really thought we used to only put head of state getting elected. Im sorry if it sounds "anti-american" but it seems we put up any changes in US government no matter what they are (super majority gain, loss, supreme court nominee, supreme court elect, senator elect etc etc). If this isnt US centric bias then i dont know what is. AND PLEASE stop showing google hits as they will not be a factor taken into account, never have before and never will. we are not google or news service. -- Ashish-g55 18:01, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
By the way, welcome to all these newcomers. In my few months on this page, have I seen such an avalanche of fresh contributors.  Cargoking  talk  18:15, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
I think if he were from any other country, any person who generated this much news coverage would by already posted in ITN without controversy. --Johnsemlak (talk) 18:43, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
No doubt about it. I'd never thought I'd be saying this, but I'm actually taken aback by the baseness of the anti-Americanism displayed here. The amount of inflammable comments and nigh-on uncivil cherry picking is downright embarrassing. I can't find a single oppose that is even remotely relevant to the criteria. Everything is either misrepresentation or "too much America". Maybe this is all just because the wrong people woke up on the wrong side of the bed on the wrong day, but it seems to me as if ITN is inherently incapable of handling deaths in any consistent manner.
Peter Isotalo 19:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Strong support Seriously. Not having this on the main page and instead having beauty pageant contestants and cricket matches while every other news organization has been reporting this all day makes Wikinews, and Wikipedia by extension, look like a joke. Chuthya (talk) 18:28, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
ITN is not wikinews. and it is on front page first article on wikinews... -- Ashish-g55 18:35, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
That better? This event satisfies critera 1 and 2 of recent deaths, and arguably even criteria 2. This whole debate has been ridiculous. It shouldn't take the better part of a day to get this on the ITN section! Chuthya (talk) 19:36, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
(a) the deceased was in a high ranking office of power at the time of death, ->>> He was not head of state. which is what a politicians high rank needs to be for ITN.
(b) the deceased was a key figure in their field of expertise, and died unexpectedly or tragically, ->>>> died of brain cancer at age 77. The field being politician he was not head of state.
(c) the death has a major international impact that affects current events. The modification or creation of multiple articles to take into account the ramifications of a death is a sign that it meets the third criterion. ->>>>> Google hits does not qualify neither does front page of news sources. thats what wikinews is for. So by my count it fails to meet any criteria. -- Ashish-g55 19:48, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Nothing in the ITN Critera on Deaths states that it has to be a head of state. US Senator is one of the highest levels of power in US politics. Denying this fact displays a gross misunderstanding of the US political system. Chuthya (talk) 20:08, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Support Opposing because it's US-centric is just plain stupid, if we have a British or any other thing you almost never see, Oppose, too "british-centric". Kennedy was a major figure and the last living brother (?) of JFK thus he made an American impact, not sure how worldwide though.--Giants27 (c|s) 18:44, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Giants, what you have unwittengly done is highlight the US centricism that is so talked about in this discussion. You support the item because he had an impact in the US, irrelevant of his impact internationally. For someone to be notable enough to go on ITN they have to had a major impact on their field internationally. In political terms that sort of importance is reserved only for heads of state and political leaders and Kennedy was neither. Also, when will people understand the ITN is not a news service - it is not our responsibility to follow what CNN or the BBC or Le Monde do. Given that 99% of the time the top stories on these websites are no good for ITN (and we subsequently don't blindly follow them), why is it that this is what people are saying we should be doing now? --Daviessimo (talk) 19:34, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Kennedy not a political leader? You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. ++Lar: t/c 20:10, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
No, I know exactly what I'm talking about. In countries that have monarchies the political leader (usually a Prime Minister) is not the head of state. Thus, in politics a notable death can either be the head of state (if the country is a republic) or a political leader (usually a PM in a constitutional monarchy). But of course disregarding WP:CIV and making a personal attack is more fun I suppose --Daviessimo (talk) 20:29, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Whoa Nelly! Sorry to butt in, but I sense some sort of a clash emerging him which will not leave both parties with big smiles. I agree, Daviessimo, that Lar could have phrased better than "You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about", but I'm sure he meant no personal attack and just got a bit carried away. Truce? Otumba (talk) 20:34, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
If what is meant was "head of government" (PM, or head of state) that's what should have been said. But anyone who says Kennedy wasn't a political leader (in the commonly accepted meaning of the term, someone who has great influence in politics in a given country) of the US really doesn't know what they're talking about. It's no sin to be ignorant, and it's not a personal attack to point out ignorance, if in so doing, enlightenment will follow. Let us hope for that, because what I see here is a lot of insularity and ownership... perhaps it's a good thing that a major event brought some non regulars here to see exactly what sort of arguments are advanced... hopefully not on a regular basis. ++Lar: t/c 20:55, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Support. The absence of Senator Kennedy from the front page is a glaring omission that has been troubling me all day, and I am frankly considering IAR'ing this and posting it within the next few minutes. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:25, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
IAR on Main page is a really bad idea. Please, first read the comments of people who run ITN every day. --Tone 19:31, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
read the comments of people who run ITN every day OWN much? Thatcher 19:53, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
This is not the case. ITN has some guidelines and ITN people are more familiar with them. That's it. Also, TFA and DYK have guidelines. And several people have expressed their opinions why in this case the guidelines are not met. --Tone 19:59, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
As far as I can tell pretty much everyone opposing is doing an IAR by making highly imaginative interpretations of the death criteria or ignoring them altogether.
Peter Isotalo 19:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
I don't think I've ever seriously IAR'd in my three years here, but this seems like a fine place to start. The absence of this item from the mainpage today is indefensible. Any concerns about US-centricity are undercut by the fact that no other US-based items are listed on ITN right now. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:43, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Strong Support Per above reasons. U.S.-centric should not be a valid argument for every news item brought up. Kennedy is just as notable as Les Paul, who was listed for days. Gage (talk) 19:44, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
  • oppose - it's far more important that we have the death of a Taliban leader and the crowning of this year's Miss whatever on the front page then the death of some US Senator. So what if he was brother of someone many consider their favorite US president, a perennial shadow candidate for president himself, scion of one of the leading political families of the east, sponsor of over 500 bils that made it into law and the third longest sitting US senator, the Ashes series in cricket is MUCH more important than that. ++Lar: t/c 19:56, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Not every US senator is important enough to be listed on ITN, I suppose, but this is frickin Ted Kennedy. He was a significant liberal voice in the Senate for 50 years. He killed someone and got away with it. He ran for President. Before his death he was the leading voice for health care reform which could affect 1/6th of the US economy. He passed and Overrode Ronald Regan's veto of the Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid Act of 1986 (world-wide significance?) He was Knighted! Another blow against Wikipedia as a serious and credible information source. Thatcher 20:04, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
WP:ITN/DC clearly states:
A death should only be placed on ITN if it meets one of the following criteria:
(a) the deceased was in a high ranking office of power at the time of death
(b) the deceased was a key figure in their field of expertise, and died unexpectedly or tragically
(c) the death has a major international impact that affects current events. The modification or creation of multiple articles to take into account the ramifications of a death is a sign that it meets the third criterion.
Now as far as I can see no-one has explained how Kennedy's deaths meets any of these criteria. Arguments are limited to saying that he was very important in America and as such it is ITN worthy, saying his death is being followed by loads of news organisations across the globe and ITN should follow suit or saying that opposing on the grounds of US centricism is not a valid reason and as such should not stop this going up--Daviessimo (talk) 20:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Concur. It is unfortunate that accusations of anti-Americanism are now flying around, along with a threat at IAR, but it doesn't help that US-centricism accusations have been made by people, including me, for which I apologize. My basic point is that the criteria labelled above does not cover Kennedy; to put briefly, he was an important figure in the US, not in the world. Otumba (talk) 20:24, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
well i did explain in steps how it does not meet the criteria. the response was "US Senator is one of the highest levels of power in US politics", so i stopped replying. Im sorry but clearly people supporting dont even want to read why the item doesnt meet guidelines. i got nothing against US items or Kennedy. He was great senator sure but this news item is limited within US and logically if u post this u should be posting 2nd level (below head of state) politician deaths for entire world. Since we will clearly not do that then posting this item makes ITN US-centric by default. People comparing this to Les Paul should first find out that Les Paul was a musician who had worldwide impact and thats why it was posted. ITN is not breaking news or today's top stories. it needs to stay neutral (as much as possible) across whole world and for that reason it should not be posted (unless ofcourse all those supporting would like to come back and support every death of other countries 2nd level politicians. but most likely no one will be seen on ITN again and the regular people will have deal with the aftermath). -- Ashish-g55 20:27, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
  • I have added a brief mention of Senator Kennedy's death to the listings as its absence at this point is absurd and glaring. Please also see my edit summary for the addition, which invokes WP:IAR, if needed. I have kept the item brief given the lack of complete consensus for its inclusion, and not added a photograph, although I strongly recommend that it be added. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:33, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
    • Really not a good idea, and I'm glad another admin has reverted. WP:IAR is good for some situations, but with such a heated debate going on with neither side having majority support, arbitrarily trying to impose your own view seems very unwise. I understand your annoyance at this not being up; I myself am annoyed that a user is going around removing the order of succession of various incumbent leaders, despite my reverts, but in the end sometimes we must all accept our view don't always win. Otumba (talk) 20:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
      • I've posted to ANI for further input into this discussion, as I consider this situation an absurd one. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:44, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
        • Absurd is not the word I'd use Brad. Nowhere near strong enough. Yes I understand we do not want to be all US all the time, but this is bloody ridiculous. SirFozzie (talk) 20:46, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
          • To be honest, I think I will support having Kennedy up just to prevent this whole thing degrading further. Arguments about whether Kennedy should be up or not are not worth enough to have the mudslinging that is happening between some editors now. Otumba (talk) 20:49, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Baitullah Mehsud's death on ITN (who?); Ted Kennedy's, not. Silly. (talk) 20:36, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Interestingly, his death is now on the French main page, the Portuguese one, Dutch, Swedish, Czech, Catalan. But not here. Almost embarrassing, considering how many people must be looking at our main page for info on the senator. Deserted Cities 20:37, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

  • I second that. This news is being reported all over the world. To give some countries that people haven't mentioned: Japan, Italy, and South Africa. Most International coverage features multiple articles and multimedia coverage like video and pictures. Gujarat Samachar, a niche Indian newspaper published in a local language, also has a front page article on this, as does Sandesh, another local newspaper. I'd say that the coverage in these newspapers and TV channels, across several languages, in addition to coverage on the Guardian, the Times, Le Monde, etc. speaks for the importance the global press assigns to the topic. In terms of his impact, leaders all over the world (a mostly complete list at Huffington Post) have come out to remember him. Ted Kennedy was the brother of an American president and a near-President, and ran for the post himself. He brokered peace in Northern Ireland and has been a steadfast supporter of Israel. The only argument I've heard against adding him to the ITN section is that he is a Senator, and that he is an American. The American argument I won't even address. But the Senator argument? He's not just any Senator. He's the most prolific and powerful senator in American history, matched only by Henry Clay. He's a political celebrity with deep familial ties to the Oval Office and with supporters all over the world. Would foreign Prime Ministers feel obliged to respond to the death of Al Franken? would that be covered in every foreign newspaper worth the paper its printed on? Would that be on the main page of the French, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, etc. Wikipedias? The answer, by the way, is no, because Al Franken is just another Senator, no more important globally than Shinjiro Koizumi or Alan Campbell. However, the title of Senator (or, equivalently, MP) does not disqualify someone from being considered important globally- look at Barack Obama or Hilary Clinton. They were household names all over the world while still acting in a Senatorial capacity. The point is, in every country, some legislators are more prominent than others. For a select few, that prominence in global. Ted Kennedy, while not necessarily a topic of active discussion, is a household name in my village of a hometown in India- which is more than the Canadian Prime Minister can say. To not report his death on Wikipedia- excuse me, to report his death on every version of Wikipedia but the English one- is simply shameful for a website that claims to be the centre of information on the web.
  • Consensus here is utterly clear. Pending any objections within the next few minutes I will be adding this to the ITN template shortly. –Juliancolton | Talk 20:42, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Support Even speaking as a European surrender monkey who sometimes gets irritated with US-centrics here, to leave this off ITN is ludicrous. Black Kite 20:46, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Support - Per NYB. Seriously. What. the. heck. J.delanoygabsadds 20:48, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Strong support - add it right away. BritishWatcher (talk) 20:49, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

This should never, ever, ever happen again that a handful of editors block the placement of an obviously newsworthy death. It's absurd that this discussion occurred, let alone went this long. Tan | 39 20:53, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

80% of supporters stepped on this page for the first time (or in a very long time atleast) and did not give a crap about what ITN guidelines are and people who opposed were simply trying to state why the item does not qualify. those 80% will never be seen again here and not that their support does not matter IT DOES but atleast try to justify the support. or listen to editors who do know the guidelines. The reason why it seems like the item took long is because every US government change gets nominated and argued upon over here. -- Ashish-g55 21:05, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
If the completely embarrassing conversation listed above is typical of the regular constributors here then perhaps it is time for some new eyes to get involved at ITN. Any random American senator dying, fair enough ... but Ted Kennedy?! Frankly astonishing. Black Kite 21:08, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
you are more than welcome or any of u above to come here more often. but fact is almost none will and when some other "random" US senator dies and gets nominated we will go through exact same discussion again with new people and no one will remember ur statement. seen it happen again and again over past years. and calling above discussions "embarrasing" shows u do not know much about ITN yourself. -- Ashish-g55 21:13, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
It is probably best that I wrote "embarrassing" rather than what I actually think about that conversation and some of those that took part in it. Black Kite 21:17, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
At the end of the day there is a concensus and this item has gone up - fair play. But can I just ask, of the many admins and general editors, who have come here to comment on this and in the process seemingly acted to criticise and attack regular ITN contributors like myself, how many of you will be contributing to ITN tomorrow? Or next week? Or even next month? Its all well and good criticising us over this (and the end of the day all I've done like many others is follow the criteria laid down as WP:ITN/DC), but come tomorrow, when this has blown over it will be once again the same few editors and few admins who actively contribute to ITN that'll be here working away developing items to go up on the main page. And yet we still end up with comments like those from the above user, which are in my mind totally uncalled for and nothing but a needless attack on the hard work that regular ITN contributors make --Daviessimo (talk) 21:19, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
If ITN regulars oppose Edward Kennedy's death going on ITN, then core changes need to be made to the system that has evolved. If this is the ethos that "hard work" has produced, I say scrap it all and start over. Tan | 39 21:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
No, it's not an attack on ITN contributors as a whole, more of a response to the comments like the one from Ashishg55 indicating far too high a level of WP:OWN going on here. Or perhaps it's more of an attack on a process that appears to have become slightly insular, but nevertheless it is quite ludicrous that for pretty much a whole day ITN has not carried a story that has been the #1 news item in a vast majority of the world. Black Kite 21:24, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
(edit conflict, to Daviessimo) I understand completely that the editors who spend a lot of time on ITN, both in developing the guidelines and in doing the day-to-day work of selecting and crafting items, play an important role and should be recognized for doing so. All of us self-select our different niches and responsibilities around the project, and mine, for example, are generally on pages other than this one. That means that 999 times in 1000, I will generally defer in the selection of ITN items to the people who focus on ITN. On the other hand, conversely, it also means that if I or others come to this page to raise a specific concern about the omission of a given item, the concern is sufficiently glaring that posting about it became a priority even for someone whose attention is generally elsewhere. Of itself, that is reasonably relevant input suggesting that application of the usual standards or guidelines might need to be reevaluated or superseded in that given instance. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:28, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Its a complete joke, what makes it even more offensive is what was considered notable enough like the Miss world thing. How something as pathetic as that which gets no international headlines gets in and the death of a senior senator known around the world and reported on around the world cant then i agree clearly the guidelines need to be rewritten to encompass commonsense. BritishWatcher (talk) 21:28, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Support inclusion, of course; this was front-page international news. There also needs to be a closer eye kept on ITN in general, because it's clear that some of the regulars have created their own little bureaucracy with absurd "rules." That has to stop. *** Crotalus *** 21:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Common sense support International news even among non-English language sources. If any of the other 99 US Senators like Robert Byrd, Arlen Specter or Jim DeMint died, it wouldn't have the same level of coverage. Ted Kennedy's influence and worldwide persona is unique. AgneCheese/Wine 21:45, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
  • ITN FAIL (IOW Support). Kudos to the brave/smart individual who added this obvious worldwide news story to the Main Page. Every time I visit ITN/C, the chorus of "too US-centric" makes me throw up a little in my mouth. It's obvious that Kennedy's death is being covered by major news organizations around the world. I admit it's not nearly as important as who won the Miss Universe Pageant. (you know, because she will clearly have a great impact on her country's political system) APK that's not my name 21:47, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

US Centrism

It looks like some of the INT regulars are gossiping amongst themselves; "ITN newbies - they all act like they know the rules or guidelines"; "...all those US users who think they are the centre of the universe". This is going to stop, today. This isn't how Wikipedia works, this isn't how Wikipedia editors should be acting, and the status quo is going to change. Tan | 39 21:35, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Is it too much to ask for a pic? Deserted Cities 20:56, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
This one would appear appropriate

Ok, here's an argument I think hasn't been offered before: The last time he died it was our fault. This time I think the least thing we owe him is a proper obituary, right? Lampman (talk) 00:19, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

  • The Moldovan government announces that it will stand down before the opening of parliament on Friday. A coalition of four opposition parties will then attempt to elect a president. This will (I think) result in the fall of Europe's last communist government. Could be mainpage-worthy on friday if not today. Source: (BBC) - Dumelow (talk) 17:13, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
I don't think the standing down of the current government is in of itself notable enough to put on ITN. If, however, a new president is successfully elected, that is notable enough. Otumba (talk) 17:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Iraq and Syria

Iraq and Syria have recalled their ambassadors to one another following the discovery of links between Syria and terrorism in Iraq. Relevant article is Iraq–Syria relations but it needs an update. Worthy of the mainpage? Source: (BBC) - Dumelow (talk) 17:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Tit for tat diplomatic expulsions are normally put up so I support once updated --Daviessimo (talk) 07:26, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
I have done a small update, haven't got time to do any more at the moment but it has the basic info on the incident in there - Dumelow (talk) 17:21, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Women's Equality Day

Just a placeholder that August 26 is Women's Equality Day in the U.S. Celebrating the passage of the Nineteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution which gave women the right to vote. I understand that ITN doesn't like American news and usually by accident favors photos of men. But just in case a woman wins something around then. TFA and DYK both have suggestions for this day, and I put a note into the WikiProject for OTD. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:18, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

You mean have a woman as the image? There doesn't seem anything wrong with that suggestion. Maybe if other countries have similar women's days and someone suggested they be included on those days also though. --candlewicke 00:04, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes. How sad it has to be a "woman's day" to get a photo on Wikipedia ITN though. :-) -SusanLesch (talk) 00:33, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
i will support but whats the news item lol. isnt this more of OTD thing. and for the photo we did have miss universe but it got removed due to copyright issues. i guess there are a lot less free images of women ;) -- Ashish-g55 23:46, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Well I believe the 8th March should be the most important day to try and get a photo of a woman on ITN. The lack of photos on ITN is unfortunate but reflective of the unfortunate fact that there are still far fewer women in positions of power then men, particularly world leaders who we have most often (given the frequent availability of photos from USgov sources). Having said that while there's nothing wrong with having a free photo of Miss Universe or whatever on ITN, I would hope we would have a lot more then just that, it's not exactly the right message if the only females we ever have on ITN are beauty contestant winners Nil Einne (talk) 11:40, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
actually what i was saying was that we didnt even have a free image of miss universe lol.everything seems to be copyrighted these days -- Ashish-g55 13:30, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

August 25

ITN candidates for August 25

Sorry I don't understand the difference. Wikinews's first sentence says homicide. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:18, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose. MJ was on Main page back in June and that's enough. Also, this is a wikinews-type story. --Tone 20:27, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Support (and sorry I couldn't figure out how to start a new day). We waited for confirmation since August 7. They said he died on Sunday, August 23. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:03, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Oppose. In any case, X says Y is not an appropriate ITN blurb. The story here is that Baitullah Mehsud died and this is where we use the death criteria. I don't think they are met here. --Tone 20:27, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
That's okay, but—and except that it is a Start-class and not a B-class article—it meets the death criteria:
  • a high ranking office of power, and had a significant contribution/impact on the country/region.
  • was a very important figure in their field of expertise, and was recognised as such.
  • has a major international impact that affects current events. The modification or creation of multiple articles to take into account the ramifications of a death is a sign that it meets the third criterion.
updates had to be and were made to this article, Hakimullah Mehsud, Wali-ur-Rehman and Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan. I said "Hakimullah said" to work him in as new leader. Other wordings welcome if it's worth it. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:37, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
I will write some Wikinews as this deserves a mention. -SusanLesch (talk) 01:20, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Almost done with wikinews:Pakistan Taliban say Baitullah Mehsud is dead. A hell of a lot of work to get around Tone's objection. -SusanLesch (talk) 02:02, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Support. Better late than never. ;-) Wikireader41 (talk) 02:36, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

  Posted — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:05, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Well this one is a red link but let me guess—another qualifying tournament? --candlewicke 18:26, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
As the anon said this seems quite worthless so I'd just skip this part... –Howard the Duck 11:37, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
But should any of the others have time on the Main Page either? How can anyone decide if one is more "worthless" than another? --candlewicke 00:00, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Let's base it on FIBA World Rankings points: this one is worth 0.1 points for 1st place.(virtually worthless). A EuroBasket championship stated below is worth 1 point.
Probably not. However, shall we include Eurobasket (this will take place next month)? It's the second biggest international event in basketball, after the World c'ship (and Olympics, but those are less frequent). --Tone 20:27, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
New Zealand won, and it was an upset, but nobody really cares by now since both countries will qualify. I'd argue on the inclusion on EuroBasket next month, let's see if something happens there. I'd bet if the Luol Deng-powered UK performs well we'll see a marked increased in "notability" among the people here. –Howard the Duck 05:23, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
This has now been delayed until August 26 (due to bad weather) - Dumelow (talk) 16:39, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Then we shall see tomorrow. We like space stories here ;-) --Tone 20:27, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
although nothing that exciting about shuttle launch this time.. a furnace and freezer lol. -- Ashish-g55 21:54, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Postponed again I'm afraid, some sort of problem with a valve or something. Next attempt on 28 August - Dumelow (talk) 16:56, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Support, very important figure. -- King of ♠ 05:50, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose not a world leader --Stephen 05:59, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose not a major world figure, nor was this unexpected. Sadly an admin already posted it. The great kawa (talk) 23:38, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose and thank you to the admin who truncated this item. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:56, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

August 24

ITN candidates for August 24

South Korea
  • Naro-1 has been launched at 8 00 UTC on August 25

South Korea successfully launches its first space rocket, Naro-1, orbiting the STSAT-2A satellite

Second launch attempt. First launch of a satellite by South Korea has happened at 8:00 UTC. I suggest it for ITN as soon as the successful launch is confirmed. Hektor (talk) 07:37, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Support as soon as the article is updated (still needs some fixes). --Tone 08:08, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Satellite separated. Launch seems to be successful. Hektor (talk) 08:12, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Posting. --Tone 09:44, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
It was a partial faliure! The satellite did not reach orbit. Should update. (talk) 14:21, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
200 killed -- TouLouse (talk) 19:19, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Do we have an article? --Tone 19:35, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Sad reality that huge number of deaths in that country rarely get any coverage. The number is likely under-reported as well.

August 23

ITN candidates for August 23

Miss Universe 2009

Stefanía Fernández of Venezuela wins the Miss Universe 2009 pagaent held at Atlantis Paradise Island, in Nassau, Bahamas.

We'd have an excuse to have pretty face for a few days... –Howard the Duck 03:30, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Support. it is "universe", cant get more diverse than that (also i think this should be ITNR). and partially for the reason mentioned above. -- Ashish-g55 17:46, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Support. An article appeared last year for this. SpencerT♦Nominate! 19:18, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Posting. Shall we put the image also if it is free? It has a tag at the moment. --Tone 19:26, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
boooo, whole point of this was so we can look at her for few days :) -- Ashish-g55 20:10, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Though I think the word Universe is POV here. I haven't seen any Andorians participating... And neither Vogon, luckily :P --Tone 20:15, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
pffft they dont stand a chance against her lol. nyways we have a free picture now it seems. put it up =D -- Ashish-g55 22:56, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

...and people wonder why the "In the News" regulars were getting flamed for refusing to post Ted Kennedy's death. Nobody would have complained if the other stuff in ITN was earth-shatteringly important, but why is this utterly irrelevant factoid still hanging out here five days later? In the News should not be some kind of bizarre "let's be fair" recap of international events, especially when said international event is like 1/1000 the importance of, say, a sporting event that people actually care about like The Ashes or Usain Bolt. And the Miss Universe 2009 article has maybe 4 paragraphs of prose in total, and a lot of lists, so it's not even a great feature on those grounds. To clarify, I'm not opposed to this inclusion on prudish or second-wave feminist grounds, nor because I think only "serious business" should be included. Feel free to keep featuring sports and the like. I'm opposed to its inclusion on the basis that Miss Universe is a footnote on the scale of cultural importance, but apparently was included anyway because "it cant get more diverse than this." It should be removed in favor of... well, Kenndy's up there now, but pretty much *anything* else. Escaped Quaternion (talk) 03:20, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

However, it is the largest, most well-known and the pinnacle of the beauty pageant field with international involvement. Therequiembellishere (talk) 03:48, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
the above comments are only jokes because we get bored sometimes. it wasnt stated but it was obvious amongst people why miss universe is important. did u ever stop to think how many people in the world actually follow miss universe event. how notable it is in countries like india, canada, venezuela etc. thats why with my little joke i proposed it for ITNR. it was included before too so we here didnt feel its important to state all the reasons everytime. some things are just understood. just to make it clear this wasnt added as "lets be fair" recap of international event... it was added because it is of interest to people around the globe and if u think there is no cultural importance to it then that is your POV. i would also like to know how u came to decision that its got 1/1000 importance. can u cite some material to prove that. -- Ashish-g55 03:56, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

  • Nom North Korean and South Korean meetings. --bender235 (talk) 12:02, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
These are the ones which are the first time in two years? I'm not sure... has anything happened at these meetings? --candlewicke 17:16, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

The Ashes
  • I may be tempting fate but England are close to winning The Ashes from Australia later today or tomorrow. The article is at Australian cricket team in England in 2009 and seems to be fairly decent. There is also a free image of The Ashes' urn which we can use. Whoever wins (or draws) the series it should probably go up anyway as it is listed at WP:ITNR - Dumelow (talk) 14:53, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
ENGLAND have now won the Ashes, so as soon as the articles are updated i support it going up on ITNJason Rees (talk) 17:02, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Suggested phrasing: The England cricket team defeats Australia at The Oval, thereby winning the Test series 2-1 and regaining The Ashes (pictured) Modest Genius talk 17:41, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Oppose. I remember we did not have the result of one of the European football championship (was it UEFA cup?), therefore I think it is not appropriate to have the result of a match between two countries. --Tone 19:49, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Support The Ashes is a huge deal in cricket. It is the same as India vs Pakistan, only with a much longer and less politically charged history. Just because it only involves two nations shouldn't be an issue when events such as the Superbowl or AFL go up. Also we put the IPL up, which is a domestic league in cricket so I can't see any valid argument in opposition to this other than if it lacked an update. The UEFA Cup (which I nominated and wanted to see up) was rejected because there was also the Champions league to go up at the same time and people felt it was a second tier competition. There is no way you could ever call the Ashes a second tier cricket competition --Daviessimo (talk) 20:22, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Support. This is the biggest fixture in world cricket, and is listed on WP:ITNR. Modest Genius talk 20:34, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

The current suggestion seems a bit overlinked and confusing. How about the following? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:51, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

The England cricket team defeats Australia at The Oval, thereby winning the test series 2-1 and regaining The Ashes (pictured).
I'm not sure. It is listed at ITNR and yet Tone makes a good point too. I know it is at ITNR but is it truly above and beyond all others? Is there no higher level of cricket but a meeting of these two teams? And should India and Pakistan not be the one to post if it is therefore more politically charged? If India and Pakistan is more likely to be controversial I don't see why it might be left out—is it posted when it occurs? And, if this is not a second tier competition, it is presumably a first tier one in which case what tier is India and Pakistan? If both are first tier then there are at least two first tier—are there more than that, i.e. will someone else ask why their country is not represented at a later date and is it possible to provide them with a logical response as to why not? --candlewicke 20:58, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
The highest level of international cricket is Test cricket (there is also one-day and twenty20 international cricket, which are different forms of the game and have their own entries on ITNR). Test cricket is played as sets of bilateral series between the various Test nations - there is no centralised `championship'. To save putting up an entry for every test series (about 20 per year...) we just feature the two biggest and most important series, which are the Ashes and India v Pakistan. Both are listed on ITNR, and both have appeared on ITN previously. Just about anyone who knows anything about cricket will agree that these are the biggest Test series. Modest Genius talk 21:12, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
(ec) Well, I admit I am not adequately familiar with cricket to judge which are the world-top events. If this is the top one - now drawing the parallel with football - like UEFA European Football Championship (not the Cup), then I have no problems with having it on ITN. Maybe it would be a good idea to go through ITN/R cricket items and check what really is the top level. --Tone 21:17, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Now that I've just read the comment by Modest Genius, we have 4 cricket items on ITNR. For future reference, is that it or can we drop any or we need any more? --Tone 21:20, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
They look good to me. That's the top international event in ODI and T20 forms of the game (world cup every 4 years, T20 every 2 years), plus the two top Test series (averages every 2 years each). Makes ~1.75 stories per year. Modest Genius talk 21:32, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
I've just clarified the ITNR section, though didn't change the entries. Modest Genius talk 21:38, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Ok, I think this is fine now. Posting, just without the result since it is standard ITN practice not to include it. Someone please upload the photo. --Tone 21:49, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Actually, I am not perfectly happy with the article updates yet so it can go up when this is ready. --Tone 21:52, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Just for the record, it seems we have an article dedicated to the 2009 Ashes series as well as the Australian cricket team in England in 2009 one that was used in the above wording suggestions. I think it would be more appropriate to use the Ashes one rather than the summary of the entire tour, which includes limited-overs games, which are a separate competition and might be confusing. (talk) 22:12, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

That article was a redirect when the suggestion was made above. It's been expanded using material taken from the tour article. But yes, it's probably more appropriate. Modest Genius talk 22:47, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
I dunno but FIBA Asia Championship 2009 had WAY MORE views (view for a certain day had around 80% of the The Ashes' July 2008 total, but only up until the quarterfinals) and that wasn't posted. –Howard the Duck 00:43, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

August 22

ITN candidates for August 22


According to the latest news, the death toll reached to 6466. Could anybody update the current news on the main page? Beagel (talk) 05:31, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Is that not a bit old now?  Cargoking  talk  12:25, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't see it was already there. If we can find a admin to update...  Cargoking  talk  12:34, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
Done by Tone. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:52, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
There is now an article.
  Added. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:24, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Women's Professional Soccer

Not sure if I'm doing this correctly, but the championship of the Women's Professional Soccer league had been decided by a 1-0 victory by Sky Blue FC over LA Sol. Should be included as this is the premier league for women's football with many international players.Rhodesisland (talk) 05:53, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't think this is good enough both before and after checking the country in which these teams and league were located. --candlewicke 06:48, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

August 21

ITN candidates for August 21

Powerful women
  • German Chancellor Angela Merkel is named the most powerful women, for the fourth straight year, in the world by forbes magazine.[19]--Fire 55 (talk) 14:32, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
not really ITN material. PS: please sign your posts thanks -- Ashish-g55 14:07, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
Oppose. Hardly ITN worthy. Just something by some magazine.  Cargoking  talk  15:25, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
Same as above. --candlewicke 16:19, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Somali military forces engage Islamist militants in Mogadishu, Somalia, with 21 dead and 40 injured.

I'm supporting this one. I'll expand the entry in a bit, just got to do some RL stuff first. Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 19:35, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Before you do (or after if it be the case), how abnormal is this for Somalia? --candlewicke 22:30, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
To be honest, not very; it's part of a battle that's been going on since the beginning of this year. I'm assuming that will lead to a "no"? :P Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 03:19, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
Well, just looking at the infobox, a death toll of 21 looks a bit small to me when compared to figures of 500, 1,600, 223,000, 82, 72. I know it wouldn't be notable for Iraq anyway and it seems Somalia is in a similar situation (it just doesn't get as much press coverage unfortunately). --candlewicke 04:40, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
See? :) At least five more dead one day later. :( It's just that nobody notices outside Africa. --candlewicke 08:23, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

August 20

ITN candidates for August 20

Ontario Tornadoes
well this is fairly rare for toronto. but i will stay neutral for this one since the tornado was like a km from where i was... me supporting will prolly have some bias in it lol ;) -- Ashish-g55 15:38, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Presidential election

Parliamentary election

Fischer–Tropsch process
Promising, but no, not yet. I'd wait 'til they actually do it. Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 07:23, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Might be too old. The date on the URL is 14 August, the oldest ITN is 16 August. "Received July 7, 2009. Accepted July 24, 2009" at the bottom doesn't help there either. --candlewicke 18:09, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
I don't understand what you mean by the 14th of August. On the journal page, it says "Published online before print August 19, 2009", so the paper was only accessible yesterday. The received and accepted dates are common in technical literature and can sometimes span up to three months. There is no way to have known of this paper's existence before yesterday (unless you were the peer-reviewers or authors), and the release date of the paper to the public is more important than the date where only a few select people even know of the dinosaur. --Spotty 11222 19:00, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
This is tasty. I'll post it up in a bit. No chance of an image, I assume? Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 19:12, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Unfortunately not for Wikipedia, as I believe all images are under copyright by the PNAS. There is an image here if you want to see what the fossil looks like, but its listed as being under "Fair use" [21]
Oh, BTW, I just wanted to let you know that under the ICZN naming conventions, scientific names are to be italicized here possible. Could you italicize it? Thanks! --Spotty 11222 19:21, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, I did see those three dates though. Better to be certain. --candlewicke 19:39, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Not a problem! :) --Spotty 11222 19:42, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Usain Bolt new 200m world record
Agree. It should either replace or combine with the old one. Deserted Cities 18:48, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
I'd say combine it. --bender235 (talk) 18:52, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Sure. Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 18:58, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
move it up though. its like 5 items down. considering this happened today and everything is ordered by time it should be moved up. -- Ashish-g55 19:37, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
I'd prefer keeping it where it is. In any case, there should be a consistency in the blurb, 100m links to world record progression and 200m links to the event. --Tone 19:42, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

26 dead on election day; Afghans vote in 2009 election under guard from 300,000 soldiers linkage
Though I'm tempted to wait until the victor is announced... Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 18:57, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
I say mention it when it's announced. An accurate death toll might be available then through hindsight. --candlewicke 19:40, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Lockerbie bomber Released
Major political event concerning the worst terrorist attack on British soil. Ixistant (talk) 21:16, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Not really for ITN in my opinion. Being released on compassionate ground isn't especially new or unusual. I don't think his death would make it either. --candlewicke 00:15, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
If it's not unusual why do I see it being the top story all over BBC, CNN. It should be on ITN given the massive amount of response generated, diplomacy and controversy it has. - Mailer Diablo 19:21, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
It's got no chance of getting on ITN when there is a NPOV tag on the article. However, if that was fixed I think there is a valid argument to say it is a major event, because it will likely have repecussion on both US and UK relations with Libya. More than one political commentator on the news has suggested that the actions of the UK, via the Scottish government, may have been influenced by the big pot of oil sitting below Libya. But as I've said NPOV = No ITN --Daviessimo (talk) 19:43, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
I think it does have potential if something else happens but not right now in my opinion. It doesn't matter if it's all over BBC and CNN as that's not how ITN works. They need news of any sort to attract readers and viewers, Wikipedia and ITN need something more. And it's not unusual because "compassionate ground" has already been all over BBC, CNN, etc at least once this month. --candlewicke 22:54, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
well story has attracted quite a bit of worldwide attention since libya started celebrating his release and US and UK were getting mad about it. even though the blurb will not state that but it maybe a good reason to post it. -- Ashish-g55 00:12, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
Must been slow news day here then! - Mailer Diablo 02:46, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
The NPOV issues have to worked out first. Otherwise, this is an "up-to-date encyclopedic content reflecting important international current events" which can be added here. –Howard the Duck 05:08, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
Roll call of coverage: Morocco, Peru, Kenya, Mexico, Vietnam, Monaco and perhaps a hundred others. –Howard the Duck 05:21, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

August 19

ITN candidates for August 19

19 August 2009 Baghdad bombings

Bloody...:( --- TouLouse (talk) 13:34, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Support, enough death, several attacks at once, government buildings targeted, etc. --candlewicke 13:54, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
support. 100+ deaths -- Ashish-g55 14:44, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
It's still very short... If it gets longer, I'll support. --Tone 15:33, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
Expanded and included as, "Car bombs explode in Baghdad, Iraq, killing 95, injuring 563, and breaching the Green Zone perimeter." Sorry for being so trigger-happy, Tone. >_< Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 17:07, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

August 18

ITN candidates for August 18

Launch of Naro-1

First launch of a satellite by South Korea should happen any time soon. I suggest it for ITN as soon as the successful launch is confirmed. Hektor (talk) 07:46, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Support when launch has taken place and article is updated. Offliner (talk) 07:47, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
Ditto. --Tone 08:00, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
Ditto Ditto --Daviessimo (talk) 10:26, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
called off -- Ashish-g55 12:53, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

South Korean former President

Kim Dae-jung is dead -- TouLouse (talk) 07:28, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I'll support this. –Howard the Duck 08:13, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
So will I, as soon as there is some more update to the article. With all the media coverage, it won't be hard to compose a decent paragraph. --Tone 08:20, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Support. Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 20:38, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Support.--Caspian blue 04:25, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
Seems we have a consensus here. Kim Dae-jung, the former president of South Korea, dies. This is a bit short, any suggestions to improve? --Tone 08:00, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
Maybe you could add the age or the fact that he was a Nobel Prize winner --Daviessimo (talk) 10:26, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
Posted. A picture would be appropriate, I think... --Tone 16:06, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
I switched to a photograph of Kim Dae-jung, but I later noticed that the article had not been updated beyond a two-sentence mention of his death. Why did you post the item before the aforementioned "decent paragraph" was written? —David Levy 17:52, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
After a reconsideration, I agree that the update is not significant at the moment. But I don't have time to expand it right now, could anyone help here? --Tone 20:10, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
This is precisely the type of situation I raised recently about the requirement for substantial updates, using the example of Elizabeth II. Any such "significant update" will be, in essence, recentism and reportage of unencyclopaedic, predictable elegies (although these were grounds for getting Les Paul onto the page), which detract from its encyclopaedic tone. Kevin McE (talk) 04:47, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
How is information pertaining to a death's impact unencyclopedic? And if no such information is available, what's the point of placing an item on the main page? ITN isn't a news ticker, and if we can't direct readers to an article that's been significantly updated to reflect the current/recent event, what service are we providing?
There is some merit to the argument that in the case of a highly notable person's death, we should focus on directing readers to information about his/her life (including pre-existing prose). However, this would be a dramatic format change for which consensus has not yet been established. It also would arguably discourage people from visiting Wikinews, which routinely links to our articles for background information. —David Levy 13:38, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

NATO attacked
I'm thinking of taking 2009 NATO Afghanistan headquarters bombing, moving it to 2009 major attacks on NATO in Afghanistan or something, and rewriting it. It appears that the Taliban are keen on keeping their word (they vowed to disrupt the foreign presence in Kabul). Any support or opinions on this? Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 20:38, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

August 17

ITN candidates for August 17

MV Arctic Sea

The MV Arctic Sea, a cargo ship missing after an apparent hijacking in July off the Swedish coast, is discovered by the Russian Navy off Cape Verde. (Looks like a lot of Russian stuff for this day.) – Zntrip 18:29, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

The story about this ship is highly confusing. I'd say wait. --Tone 18:41, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
What is confusing? It was missing after it was hijacked, now it is found. – Zntrip 19:07, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Support, this was a notable event and in the headlines for weeks. There's nothing confusing about it anymore, since the ship was found and the hijackers were arrested. If this hasn't been on ITN before, now is a good time. Offliner (talk) 02:47, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
The article is quite convoluted (why is there insurance information in the lead?), so I'm going to go give it a rewrite and then post. Will think of tagline in a few seconds. Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 04:47, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Russian Bomb Attack

At least 20 people have been killed by a powerful bomb at a police station in southern Russia -- Ashish-g55 14:17, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

2009 Nazran bombing - Support TouLouse (talk) 14:28, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Support but need expansion.--yousaf465' 15:53, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Support. This is the worst attack in Ingushetia in recent years, and will surely have major political implications. Article has been expanded. Offliner (talk) 21:55, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Support - 20 people killed, significant event. PasswordUsername (talk) 22:28, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
we need more admins lol. this has been sitting here for about 6 hours now -- Ashish-g55 01:02, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Is it ready? I'm really sorry I haven't even commented or checked it out but I'm about several days back (lol). What's it like in the future? :D --candlewicke 01:36, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Ashish; it's not about the lack of admins, but the uncertainty around whether or not to post. I'm just thinking of a tagline; "The bombing of a police headquarters in Nazran, Ingushetia, kills 20 and injures 71." How does that sound? Also, I'll get around to formatting the references properly and everything in a bit. Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 02:01, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
The tagline is fine, but there were 138 injured instead of 71. What references are talking about? The ones in the article seem properly formatted. Offliner (talk) 02:08, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
well im sure lack of admins has played a part in the slowness (a bit atleast) since these things usually get discussed a lot faster. but ya as offliner said the injuries have gone up. blurb sounds fine. -- Ashish-g55 02:27, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
There are several others which have been waiting hours and possibly days to be posted. I'm not blaming anyone but I don't understand why, if there are admins viewing these pages today, aren't they saying, "no, this is not for posting", or something along those lines under each one which is otherwise OK to go? --candlewicke 02:34, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Posted; let's give it a bit of time before the next update. Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 05:01, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
We do have several which have been waiting days longer? --candlewicke 14:54, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Sayano-Shushenskaya hydroelectric station accident
Maybe? --Tone 10:59, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Yizz, I'm in support. However, how much it's going to affect Russia, aside from metals production, doesn't appear anywhere; I'm talking civilian, government disturbances, the like. Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 13:27, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
The world's fourth-largest hydro plant has had its turbine hall severely damaged and will be unusable for months, at the least; I would call that significant. Radagast (talk) 00:41, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Posting. --Tone 07:02, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
The current blurb says 7 were killed, but the correct number is 12 now[22]. This should be updated. Offliner (talk) 08:22, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

August 16

ITN candidates for August 16

Major modification of Chinese language

The People's Republic of China releases a list of major revisions further simplifying the Chinese written language. Xinhua] This is big impact news. Shiplevelone (talk) 08:16, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Interesting, sure. However, there is only one sentence update in the article at the moment, as far as I can see. We need more. And some words about the impact of it. --Tone 09:09, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Under History>Mainland there is a paragraph update. The impact is the consequence of an overhaul to a major language. Shiplevelone (talk) 10:21, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Ok, I think it's good now. Posting as when I get another support. --Tone 10:43, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Support. The world's most spoken language, isn't it?  Cargoking  talk  10:46, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
That's one vote I wanted ;-) Posting. --Tone 10:48, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Strongly oppose Since the English translation has completely garbled what actually happened.

Basically the MOE publishes a vocabulary list of commonly used Chinese characters, and they've issued a request for public comment for the new revision. This isn't worth putting in the news, and if someone does it, they need to at least summarize it correctly. The new list *doesn't* strongly change the way that the language is used. For the most part it just designated which characters the Education ministry considers "common." Also it's not a major simplification. In fact the new list replaces six characters with their traditional forms.

Either summarize it correctly, or remove it, and if you summarize it correctly, I hardly see why this is earth shaking news. It just changes the characters which people have to memorize for high school and doesn't change language usage at all.

Not to be harsh about this, but before posting a front page news article about a major change to Chinese language, you might want to get some feedback from someone that actually speaks and reads the language.

I think it's a good idea to remove that line, because it makes Wikipedia look like total idiots to anyone that can actually read Chinese. Please remove until we can discuss this a bit more.

Roadrunner (talk) 16:27, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Please just leave this out of ITN for now until things are confirmed or can be put in good English. My friends frantically messaged me this morning telling me that Chinese characters were further being simplified and citing Wikipedia as the source. It shows what an erroneous ITN can do for you. Colipon+(Talk) 16:31, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

That's what seriously worries me. What I'm worried about is if someone from a major news channel reads wikipedia and starts quoting errorneous information. We need to get it off the front page before newspaper picks it up and repeats it. Roadrunner (talk) 16:36, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Removed now. This is something that happens when there's not an accurate wording for a start... Well, mistakes happen. The sooner they are noticed the better. This is just another indicator that we need more people monitoring ITN/C. --Tone 17:10, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Don't want to jump on the user who posted this because it was in good faith. But in the future these things can definitely be avoided. I know that many news sources (including some major ones in developing countries) use Wikipedia as a legitimate verification tool for their news so it is best that we take care of all ITN items with the utmost accuracy. Colipon+(Talk) 18:26, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
We could also be a little less hasty to post the current day's nominations when several remain from yesterday and previous days. ITN isn't a breaking news service; for instance, the achievements of Lin Dan at the 2009 BWF World Championships and Y. E. Yang at the 2009 PGA Championship are much more verifiable and covered by sources. I have the badminton one ready now and am going to leave a suggested wording after I save this comment. :D --candlewicke 18:40, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks!!!! This is the cool thing about Wikipedia. Now if we could only change the headlines for the NYTimes as easily. Roadrunner (talk) 19:30, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

3,000,000 articles

News isn't it. Just fr Fun.--yousaf465' 05:34, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I wish, but no. :P Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 07:44, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


Mexico and Uruguay have signed a strategic agreement worth 500 million U.S. dollars in Uruguay's capital Montevideo.

I have updated Mexico–Uruguay relations. President of Mexico Felipe Calderón and President of Uruguay Tabaré Vázquez sign a strategic agreement worth $500 million in Montevideo. --candlewicke 04:30, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Good work! I'm not sure the tagline is suitable; calling it a strategic agreement seems to have a bit of a bent in some way or another. Any other ideas? Economic deal? Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 07:44, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes—Economic deal will be fine then. ;) --candlewicke 14:41, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
(Cough, cough, nudge... echoechoecho, tumbleweed, etc.) --candlewicke 01:39, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Easy, tiger, it will all work out in time! :P Posting as, "President of Mexico Felipe Calderón and President of Uruguay Tabaré Vázquez meet in Montevideo to sign an accord worth $500 million." Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 20:33, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Isn't this a rather puny deal at $500 mil and hence not much press. In contrast, we just saw a deal between Australia and China valued at $50 billion (almost 100 times larger).
Then nominate it. South American affairs don't seem to get much press in North America in general. --candlewicke 16:26, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

2009 PGA Championship
Support. Seems like a big story in golf. -SusanLesch (talk) 02:01, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Support this and all the sports stories underneath; however, we need to decide on one or maybe two; we can't have 3 sports stories up ITN at once. At least, I think that would be ludicrous. Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 02:13, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
I thought whatever is ready gets posted. There has been no limiting deaths and disasters so why sports if someone is willing to work on them?
Either way, I support this one. --candlewicke 03:11, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Although it would be a recurring item anyway so just requires an update. --candlewicke 03:31, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
We still try not to have ITN focused only on one type of news. There are, and always have been, times where we've got more news-worthy articles than time to post them up. It's best to keep them varied, develop them regardless, and so forth. That's why I'm not a fan of posting up three sports stories at once. Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 07:44, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Support I believe this is a historic moment in world sport. The first Asian born player to win a golfing major. I also get the feeling if Tiger Woods would have won it, despite it being less notable, it would have got put on the main page. I don't see a problem with it (talk) 21:32, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
I disagree. With ITN, we're always going to have the problem on some occasions that certain similar items come at the same time. When we can't combine them, we may end up with multiple items on similar things. We should try to achieve long term balance, in other words, we shouldn't allow so many sports events that we have one on ITN permanently, but be it elections or sports, or natural disasters or whatever we ultimately will sometimes end up with multiple items, and should just accept that as the way things are. Sure we'll get some complaints, but we get complaints all the time about different things. Nil Einne (talk) 09:41, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Female Ministers

"Mahmoud Ahmadinejad plans to appoint at least three women ministers to his new cabinet, a first in the Islamic republic."  Cargoking  talk  13:33, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

It is a plan so he must do it first. --candlewicke 18:43, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
Agreed. Though if this goes through it'll go up for sure. Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 07:44, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Final of the FIBA Asia Championship 2009
A qualifying tournament? --candlewicke 18:23, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Title of the article would show what it is. An intercontinental championship, that doubles as a qualifying tournament. –Howard the Duck 08:04, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Oppose. Not significant enough as it a regional competition. Would have supported if it was a World Championship.
For some reason the page views dropped off after the quarterfinals (I think I know why) so the interest waned off. It would haven't made it anyway since there are no prose in the article. –Howard the Duck 11:47, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
Last day of the 2009 BWF World Championships
Loads of searches in Yahoo! News. Must be big. –Howard the Duck 11:30, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Badminton. WP:ITNR then? --candlewicke 18:30, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
After investigating this, it seems that the England team withdrew after one of their players received a terrorist threat. Dunno if that plays into the sporting side of the event. –Howard the Duck 08:04, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Hm. Not sure how we'd factor in the terrorism, or whether to just leave it in the article and out of the tag... Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 07:44, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Updated. No terrorism, (unless you include Austria as well). Just mention the singles as per the usual with tennis and table-tennis I guess. Lin Dan's achievement worth an image too I think. Here it is: At the 2009 BWF World Championships in Hyderabad, India, Lu Lan wins the women's singles and Lin Dan (pictured) wins the men's singles, becoming the first player to win three men's singles World Championship titles. --candlewicke 18:47, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Posting. SpencerT♦Nominate! 00:38, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
I've started a discussion there Nil Einne (talk) 10:25, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Usain Bolt, new world record
Sure, I'm posting that shortly. --Tone 19:53, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
Ok, posted now. The articles updated at the moment are Bolt, Championship and World record progression. Some of them need some firm sources still. Maybe the text can be changed a little if needed. --Tone 20:06, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
A photo would fit here... there are plenty free ones, please choose one. --Tone 20:55, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
How about this picture of Mr Bolt?--Hapsala (talk) 23:04, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
  Done. howcheng {chat} 03:36, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

August 15

ITN candidates for August 15

Wedding Tent Fire

At least 44 dead guests. How often does something like this happen?  Cargoking  talk  23:56, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Depends on the type of weddings you go to. ;) --candlewicke 03:26, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
Support exist a precedent Mardin engagement ceremony massacre -- TouLouse (talk) 06:47, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
Now we have 2009 Kuwait wedding fire -- TouLouse (talk) 07:09, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
Needs significant expansion. Also, while tragic, I'm not sure it's something of international importance; just because it's a freak accident doesn't mean it's ITN-worthy. Of course, it's not solely my decision, so go on, discuss... Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 07:38, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Agree with MoP. A tragic freak accident - not an attack or airline crash or caused by any natural disaster. --GPPande 09:19, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Not an attack? Arson + Stampede = Support from me. --candlewicke 22:47, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Alleged arson, but I still don't feel it's worthy. I respect that you stick to your guns, though. Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 23:05, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I may have done my sums wrong here but how on earth does fire + confession = alleged arson? --candlewicke 23:19, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


Prison riot: 19 dead  Cargoking  talk  11:10, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Support, seems significant, some international coverage outside the region in France, UK, South Africa, Singapore etc. Are you going to do it or shall I? --candlewicke 20:53, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Hm... I'm not sure where I sit on this one. I agree that it's not worthless, and of course it's notable, but as the article states, prison riots and escapes aren't unheard of in Mexico. Also, do we have an article? I can probably fashion a tagline for it if someone makes/I make it. Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 21:12, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

August 13, 2009 incident

A rare event in which hostages overpowered their pirate captors in Somalia and escaped to nearby Yemen. Coverage: (AP)-Al Jazeera English-npr-Yahoo News-USA Today-Reuters-BBC

While this event began two days ago, it was only yesterday that it began to be reported, so I think its not too old to make an appearance on ITN. --Sherif9282 (talk) 15:11, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

The article needs a lot of work, but aside from that, support. Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 21:12, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
What do you mean by it needing a lot of work? (article as it existed at time of above comment, according to history) Can you be more specific please? It looks on first glance better than many I have seen, with several sources, citations in a well-structured format, more than long enough, no tags indicating problems. Does it require an update or have my eyes deceived me? :o --candlewicke 23:53, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
It could use a more descriptive title. It's impossible to tell what the article is about without opening it. Eóin (talk) 05:49, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
Ah well, that doesn't strike me as a lot of work though. --candlewicke 07:18, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
I couldn't think of another title, especially since none of the news sources have given a particular naming to the event. I chose the current one based on other articles in this campaignbox. Can anyone think of a better title?
At any rate, it seems there is enough support for the article to go on the main page, yes? If so, how is this step performed? I'm new to ITN.--Sherif9282 (talk) 10:08, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
How about: August 2009 Egyptian Hostage Escape for example? --Sherif9282 (talk) 10:10, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm afraid it usually involves a lengthy wait—as you no doubt have come to realise over the past few hours. :D --candlewicke 17:51, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
You didn't say your opinion on the title suggestion. --Sherif9282 (talk) 18:03, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
OK but why the capitals? --candlewicke 18:47, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
Because its a title? What do you think it should be? --Sherif9282 (talk) 22:00, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
August 2009 Egyptian hostage escape. See titles of ITNs on Main Page now or any article at all really. --candlewicke 03:16, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Title changed. --Sherif9282 (talk) 07:17, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Well, what happens now? --Sherif9282 (talk) 20:55, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
I don't know... cake? --candlewicke 23:22, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm really, really sorry. It's not always this bad, I hope it won't discourage you from hanging around. :D --candlewicke 01:46, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Death of Abdel-Latif Moussa

Definitely something of importance to Israelis and Gaza strip residents. Just bringing this one up. Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 21:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Suicide attack outside NATO headquarters

Interested in working on an article for this one if anyone agrees. Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 21:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Good idea. I'll support this if there's a good article. Offliner (talk) 00:36, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
This doesn't have a huge death toll for a country in the middle of a war, but a direct attack against NATO headquarters is very significant in my opinion - support --Daviessimo (talk) 07:04, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
Created article here. Could not find stub sort. Must go, friends waiting outside to go see District 9. I love Wikipedia. Will work on this later. Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 02:35, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Posted as, "A suicide bomber attacks the international headquarters of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization in Kabul, Afghanistan, killing 7 and wounding 91." Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 07:37, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

August 14

ITN candidates for August 14


Pakistan has begun its first international freight train service from Islamabad to Istanbul. --candlewicke 02:33, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Support, Will update Pakistani–Turkish relations article.--yousaf465' 08:06, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Updated. I have updated the article.--yousaf465' 08:27, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
I like this one. Any suggestions for the blurb? --Tone 10:22, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Prime Minister of Pakistan Yousaf Raza Gillani launches the first international container train from Islamabad to Istanbul. --candlewicke 20:00, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Posting. --Tone 20:18, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Including the phrase "international" seems rather redundant to me. Would a trip from Islamabad to Istanbul not be international? At first glance it suggests that this the first ever international container train from Pakistan. As for the inclusion, this strikes me as rather minor step in relations and the update is only three sentences long so I don't think this should be posted. (talk) 05:29, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
We've always included links from sources other than the home country(ies) to mark it as "international." I say we make a notch higher; if it were featured prominently on the home page of that website, that should give it extra... "points." In the age of globalization, there are news that are covered elsewhere, especially with wire reports and such. –Howard the Duck 08:19, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

2009 Romanian bus-train collision

13 deaths, 3 injuries seriously; The worst accident in Romania ; Covarage: Ibero;Spanish - L'Alsace; French - Le Figaro; France -; Switzerland BBC; English... I think that is really notable. TouLouse (talk) 18:29, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Saw that earlier too. Can you provide the source for "worst accident in Romania"? --candlewicke 18:47, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
This source (ChinaDaily) mentioned: The worst since 15 years (1994). TouLouse (talk) 19:01, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Other link Euronews (Italian) TouLouse (talk) 19:12, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Then I'll clarify my support. Have you mentioned this fact in the article? --candlewicke 19:13, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes', could you expand the article? - TouLouse (talk) 19:56, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Romania's deadliest road accident for fifteen years, a bus and train collision, kills at least 13 people in Scânteia, Iaşi County. --candlewicke 00:58, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Drunk-driving incidents like this happen every few days in the Western world, and it isn't exactly a far-fetched incident. I'm worried that there won't be much support for this as it is... Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 06:43, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
I completely disagree with (or else misunderstand) you on several points. First, I'm missing whether you qualify Romania as the Western world or not with that sentence but if not then what goes on east or west ought not be compared to one another. For instance, wars may happen in one part of the world but not in another—if one does occur in an unusual place you don't say this happens all the time anyway so we won't bother with another one happening in a peaceful part of the world (if you understand me). Also, for some better comparisons perhaps, mining disasters happen all the time in China (I think someone argued that at the time) but not in Slovakia. We don't post Iraq's daily death tolls but no deaths here, one death here and two deaths here qualify as unusual enough. And train accidents don't seem to happen very often in Washington either (that incident also had a much lower death toll) but again the deadliest accident in one city encounters less difficulties than the deadliest in a country for a time. A bus-train collision precedent with a lower death toll exists too. So what exactly is wrong with posting this ("isn't exactly a far-fetched incident" is not how I would describe it either; it doesn't seem to show much regard or respect for Romania unless I'm misreading it) and expanded incident (before the time runs out like it just did with Argentina-Venezuela and very nearly did with Mauritania)? :D (Inserting smiley in case tone is misunderstood). I will try to resolve any issues it may have but I really don't see any issues at his stage. --candlewicke 17:37, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
source from China; Australia Mexico etc ; TouLouse (talk) 17:44, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Here are some I found from Canada, Singapore and Thailand. --candlewicke 18:20, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
I want to see : The article was updated enough - Posted or Posting soon TouLouse (talk) 18:34, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Posting. --Tone 20:23, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

  • Britain imposing direct rule seems notable enough. Thoughts? Deserted Cities 18:13, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Support. --candlewicke 18:50, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Expanding and including as "The British government suspends the sovereignty of the Turks and Caicos Islands." I'll post it in a bit. Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 06:43, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
So are we to now take it that the death criteria are redundant in the face of the stock comments that will always be rolled out by the ex-colleagues of everyone who was remotely notable in ny field? Kevin McE (talk) 11:19, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Sorry? I don't understand this—is it about the death of sovereignty on the Turks and Caicos Islands? --candlewicke 17:59, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Haha, nice Deserted Cities 18:50, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Oops: that makes me feel silly: I'll copy it to where it was meant to have been, on the Les Paul discussion. Kevin McE (talk) 18:32, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Ah, that makes sense now. --candlewicke 19:31, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

August 13

ITN candidates for August 13

Death of Les Paul

He is credited with developing one of the first solid-body electric guitars, which went on sale in 1952 and contributed to the birth of rock. He also developed other influential recording innovations such as multi-track recording and overdubbing. And he was credited with inventing the eight-track tape recorder. Comments? --candlewicke 19:01, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Where is the substantial article update? In Les Paul, I see nothing beyond a two-sentence (could be one-sentence) mention of his death and the most basic details thereof. —David Levy 19:08/19:14, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Just checked, I see three sentences. :) Should be easy enough to add more. --candlewicke 21:17, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
With the addition of a third sentence, we now are informed that Les Paul was repeatedly hospitalized due to illness. This is hardly a shocking revelation.
Please report back when information about the death's impact has been added (which actually seems plausible in this instance). —David Levy 21:48, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, you've lost me there. I can't actually make sense of most of the above. --candlewicke 22:10, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, I don't know how to make myself clearer. —David Levy 22:17, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
What David is trying to say, uncivilly, is the update is too short.  Cargoking  talk  22:22, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
What? How was I remotely uncivil? —David Levy 22:27, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Ah thanks, I understand this as of course all ITNs must be significantly expanded and was waiting for opinions (as most people seem to be doing nowadays) but I had thought he was also saying Wikipedia should feature shocking revelations instead of facts. --candlewicke 22:32, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
No, I'm not saying that at all. In the future, please share such interpretations (so that others can address them). Your broad statement that you "[couldn't] actually make sense of most of the above" left me unaware of what required clarification and helpless to rectify the situation.
I meant that the information contained within the third sentence is extremely minor. I then opined that we should revisit this nomination when the section contains information about the death's impact (e.g. memorials, reactions from notable musicians, et cetera), at which point this would be a more suitable candidate. —David Levy 22:54, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm not certain about its suitability, however, if you think it is postable (and Spencer does too it seems) I will try to find more information. I don't think visiting hospital due to illness is "extremely minor" as not all people are hospitalised due to illness and it is even possible to be hospitalised without an illness but that is me giving an opining reply. --candlewicke 23:24, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
I don't mean to suggest that Les Paul's hospitalizations were minor events in his life. I mean that the knowledge of these events is rather trivial in the context of his death. (This information would be far more significant if he were still alive.) —David Levy 23:49, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I am sorry, I just felt you were aggressive and slightly sarcastic, although my opinion is nothing.  Cargoking  talk  19:12, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Everybody's opinion is something. --candlewicke 19:52, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Support, but the death section needs more, and the article as a whole could use a little cleanup. SpencerT♦Nominate! 19:20, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Oppose - It's the first time when I heard about him. TouLouse (talk) 19:44, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Oppose, he was 94, and I think that 94 is a bit old to die unexpectantly Blah42b10 (talk) 21:18, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Why has everything been rearranged?  Cargoking  talk  22:15, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Sorry? Is it just coincidence that I'm seeing several ambiguous, confusing and random comments right now? :) --candlewicke 22:38, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Compare these two different edits.  Cargoking  talk  22:49, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Oh, is that what you were referring to? I simply corrected the indentation levels. Nothing was rearranged. —David Levy 22:54, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
This could work if I included it right now, as simply the death has a large impact on the world; however, I agree with David in that it will probably be a better update once we've included information about reaction to the death. I'm willing to bet you my house on the fact that nearly every rock musician in the last 50 years will release a statement on how much they'll miss him; after some news articles pop up about that, we'll be able to expand it and post it up. Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 23:23, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
I've included reactions by famous musicians and sourced them all. They're even packaged in pretty cquotes. Who supports it going up as, "Electric guitar innovator Les Paul dies at the age of 94"? Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 23:35, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Posted with picture. Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 01:15, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Is it not usually in the style of: Electric guitar innovator Les Paul dies at the age of 94? I think that is how it was done for Michael Jackson (eventually when they finally killed him off). --candlewicke 01:17, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
So are we to now take it that the death criteria are redundant in the face of the stock comments that will always be rolled out by the ex-colleagues of everyone who was remotely notable in any field? Kevin McE (talk) 11:19, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
I don't know how to respond logically to that. I might have nominated this but it got two opposes and was posted. In fact, David Levy opposed as well because it wasn't long enough and when I checked it at one point after it was posted it was still too short. So that was three opposes at the time. On the other hand, BorgQueen nominated this, it got three supports and took over five days of reminders to get posted only to slide off the Main Page soon after. So... (shrugs shoulders) --candlewicke 19:52, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

It's not about counting the numbers; Les Paul was posted due to international significance in the field of music and a genre of music that shaped the lives of millions of people (something I conclude from the news media response to his death). As for the suicide bombing, I'm sorry that I wasn't here sooner to post it. In the end, though, we should be improving all of the articles for all of these pages, whether they're getting put up on the main page or not. Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 21:07, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I know what it is and isn't about, sorry if I phrased it badly—the supports just don't seem to hold up much to me either when weighing the overall argument. In the end, I suppose I am weighing up how each compares to the rest for some consistency and to guard against any possible complaints of bias. Musically for the sake of comparing like for like, I was reminded of D. K. Pattammal under July 17 where the arguments against consisted of comments like: "I doubt it. She died of natural causes after a long life to begin with." and "To be honest, when someone dies at that age, I think they have to be globally famous to get on ITN", and the like. Les Paul certainly fits the first description (he was in fact four years older) and whether he fits the second one, when compared to this, is debatable in my opinion. Anyone who plays a guitar will of course know Les Paul but so will anyone interested in Carnatic music know D. K. Pattammal. Are either household names? But that opens up a further debate I suppose. The other recent musical death (Michael Jackson) is in no way comparable in terms of reaction, etc, which led at least two new articles.
And we are (or at least I am) trying to update as many of them as possible (I think?). Nobody has said this shouldn't happen. However, having spent several days at a time finding items for the portal first of all, then nominating, creating, expanding, etc, I or any one person at all can only realistically do so much of this work. --candlewicke 23:44, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Science - new planet..

Here --- TouLouse (talk) 09:52, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Created article about it here. Only a stub, because it's 5:45 AM here and I need to sleep. When I wake up I'll resume expansion. Definitely ITN-worthy, though; possibly the biggest exoplanet ever found, and the first one we know of to have a retrograde orbit. Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 10:46, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
This is a good story indeed. However, I assume that the planet was not discovered today, as the article says, rather the discovery was announced today. --Tone 11:39, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Support. --candlewicke 14:11, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Scientist announce the discovery of WASP-17b, the first planet with a retrograde orbit. If you agree that the article is long enough, I'm ready to post it. (Any good way to include the word extrasolar in the blurb? Just the first extrasolar planet is not good since one could think that this is something known in solar planets.) --Tone 15:33, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
You meant to say 'scientists', right? :P I'm biased, but I think the article is fine; I'm not sure how much more expansion could be done right now, as this is all the information I could fit in without having it sound esoteric and complicated to the average reader. As for the extrasolar predicament; how about "Scientists announce the discovery of exoplanet WASP-17b, the first known planet to have a retrograde orbit"? Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 20:41, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Posting. Yes, I meant plural, apparently a typo... --Tone 23:27, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

August 12

ITN candidates for August 12

Microsoft Word Banned in the US

BBC. A judge has banned the sale of MS Word in the US. Quite possibly one of the most popular software after windows i think this is fairly big. Its comparable to US banning Gmail for google perhaps. what do u guys think? Microsoft_Word#Injunction would need to be expanded though. -- Ashish-g55 21:14, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

It says Microsoft is appealing so I would say wait for now. --candlewicke 21:54, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Everyone appeals after a sentencing, though. Support after update. Therequiembellishere (talk) 22:00, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
it looks decently updated now -- Ashish-g55 04:05, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Decently-updated, but also very US-centric. Given that this isn't really going to grind the world to a halt, I'm not quite sure it's news-worthy. Hold back for now. Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 06:58, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
well i dont mind... but since when is grinding world to halt a requirement... Microsoft is biggest software company in world so i figured its home country banning its product was interesting... -- Ashish-g55 12:56, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
The bigger issue IMHO is Candlewick's point. Microsoft is appealing and the injunction has not been implemented yet. This is a civil lawsuit and comparing it to a criminal one is fraught with problems. In itself the injunction shouldn't be thought of as a 'sentence' but a remedy to stop Microsoft continually infringing the patent. If Word is actually banned, then that is probably significant enough for the main page. But as supported by multiple sources, a far more likely outcome is that either Microsoft successfully appeals and the injunction is delayed or or they remove the infringing portion from Word or they reach an agreement with i4i. And whatever the case, that's a far less significant story unless the outcome there is significant, e.g. Microsoft pay a few billion to i4i but I think that's rather unlikely and the terms could even be undisclosed and in any case, it remains the fact that the possiblity that Word could have been banned but ultimately is not that significant in the grand scheme of things. Nil Einne (talk) 08:11, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Wanted war criminal arrested—Gregoire Ndahimana

Argentina and Venezuela Presidents meet and deal

“This bilateral meeting today is aimed at deepening our vital integration” Mrs. Kirchner said today on the steps of the Miraflores presidential palace in Caracas, following a meeting of the two leaders. --candlewicke 16:47, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Any support/oppose? --candlewicke 21:11, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
I'd support this if we expanded it more. Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 08:10, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Yemeni military operation

Looks good. Maybe better to wait for outcome though? --Tone 19:37, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Agreed. Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 08:10, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Missing cargo ship

This is an interesting story. But I'd prefer to wait until more is know. Searching is news. Piracy in Europe is encyclopaedic. Or whatever the outcome. --Tone 19:37, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
I've already nominated the article for DYK and I'd rather see it there. By the time is hits the main page, more information should become available. Óðinn (talk) 22:47, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
<kidding> It's OK. We ITN people love taking away items from DYK. ;D. </kidding> Sounds good. If you're the principle author, be sure to come back and inform us here when more info becomes available. SpencerT♦Nominate! 00:29, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

700 people found alive

How often does this happen? --candlewicke 16:32, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Never - Morakots been updated with the info so it could go up.Jason Rees (talk) 16:40, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
well we didnt post the 700 ppl when they got buried so i dont know if we should post when they are found either. its like we only care if they dont die... lol. -- Ashish-g55 17:57, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Technically we did - The mudslide was caused by Morakot - But im unsure i want Morakot on the Main page for too much longer.Jason Rees (talk) 18:40, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
i meant the mudslide. i suggested an update for the slide alone earlier. but it was never mentioned separately. -- Ashish-g55 20:02, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Giant 'meat-eating' plant found—Nepenthes attenboroughii

A new species of giant carnivorous plant has been discovered in the highlands of the central Philippines. --candlewicke 04:26, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Am I missing something? It was discovered in 2007, and announced in February this year? --Stephen 06:38, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Must've decided to announce it again now. Oh well. --candlewicke 13:56, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
i believe it has now been officially named after the attenborough dude. either way i dont remember this making to ITN before and the article looks like its in decent shape. we have had new species of animals on ITN bunch of times but never really meat eating plants. so ill give it a support -- Ashish-g55 15:32, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
It's still kind of old news... --Tone 15:42, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

August 11

ITN candidates for August 11

Slovakia—2009 Handlová mine blast

Nine bodies found after Slovakia mine blast. Death toll expected to rise, an emergency session of government, an official day of mourning tomorrow, compensation for relatives of the victims. If anyone can find more sources for this it seems a good candidate (with some support of course). --candlewicke 19:15, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

20 feared dead after Slovakian coal mine blast --candlewicke 19:17, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes, lots of international coverage I see. BBC Xinhua Houston Chronicle France 24 China Post RTÉ Independent Online Reuters India Chicago Tribune --candlewicke 19:21, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Support for sure - too many deaths :)   - TouLouse (talk) 20:07, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Support and you have a new article. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:19, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
20 people are killed during a fire and explosion at a mine in Handlová, Trenčín Region, in the deadliest mining disaster of Slovakia's history. --candlewicke 23:56, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Support Wikireader41 (talk) 00:23, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Posted --Stephen 02:17, 12 August 2009 (UTC)


Ecuadorean President Rafael Correa is sworn in for a second term vowing to deepen his socialist “revolution”. (MercoPress) --candlewicke 15:06, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Support.yousaf465' 16:39, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Support. Normal ITN stuff. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:34, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Rafael Correa (pictured) is sworn in for a second term as President of Ecuador. --candlewicke 00:39, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Posted --Stephen 02:17, 12 August 2009 (UTC)


Ex-Nazi commander gets life in prison --candlewicke 14:38, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Oppose. As it should be. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:32, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
What do you mean "as it should be"? Is this not normal enough for ITN? --candlewicke 18:35, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, yes I was unclear. I thought that life imprisonment was "as it should be", not unusual and not for ITN. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:35, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
This is however a Nazi and has been covered from Australia to South Africa. --candlewicke 21:57, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Death of Eunice Kennedy Shriver

Not because her brother was a US President but because she founded the Special Olympics. Here is some non-American political reaction for now. --candlewicke 14:18, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

The article says she funded the Special Olympics, not founded... Still, I don't think this should go on ITN. --Tone 14:37, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Which article? No, she founded as far as I'm aware. --candlewicke 14:40, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Oppose. She was 88. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:32, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Would it be good wisdom to now question this oppose since Les Paul's death at the age of 94 has just been posted? :D --candlewicke 01:20, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't question the oppose; an oppose is the user's decision, regardless of reasoning. I agree, though; the founder of the Special Olympics (if that is indeed the case) is notable enough. Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D 01:58, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Ah true, wise words indeed Master and my apologies to SusanLesch. --candlewicke 03:18, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Aung San suu kyi

Got 18 months more... i think this is a definite international interest. -- Ashish-g55 13:27, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Support. Posting admin please note Chad-Libya and Mauritania ITNs which haven't been posted yet as well. --candlewicke 13:55, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Hm... hard to say. I actually think that the ITN worthy event is when she finally gets released, at the moment it is just repeating of the old story. (Regarding two African articles, I'd like to have more opinions.) --Tone 14:37, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
There isn't much interest in replying to African nominations it seems. The one posted yesterday was first nominated last week... --candlewicke 14:42, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
well as i said this one is for "interest" rather than importance. even though her release would be a lot more noteworthy event, who knows when that will happen. -- Ashish-g55 15:39, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
weak oppose.--yousaf465' 16:42, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm truly surprised that there are any opposes to this. She is a major international figure who has won a great deal of the highest praise across the international community (both its leaders and its people) and the highest humanitarian and state awards over the past twenty years. This is receiving an even larger response than the Saffron Revolution did. Strong support. Therequiembellishere (talk) 04:32, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Hey, I'm quite surprised that the death of Les Paul has received more support than the death of the founder of the Special Olympics. :) And yeah, she's been blocked from taking part in the elections too. --candlewicke 21:26, 13 August 2009 (UTC)


Update line for Typhoon Morakot to "Typhoon Morakot kills at least 70 people and leaves more than 10,000 missing in the Philippines, Taiwan and China" Cyclonebiskit (talk) 09:42, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Updating. --Tone 12:20, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Earthquake in Japan

2009 Honshu earthquake - 1 death ; 63 injuries - (Associated Press) (BBC) -- TouLouse (talk) 13:23, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Not enough death and nothing else apparently significant at this stage. --candlewicke 13:57, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

August 10

ITN candidates for August 10

Tsunami Alert

[23] [24] [25]  Cargoking  talk  21:34, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I think we have to wait for the tsunami and then it has to kill and destroy, then an article has to be created and updated then someone has to come along with a desire to post it. In other words not yet.   --candlewicke 21:57, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
2009 Andaman Islands earthquake -- TouLouse (talk) 04:44, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

South African Chief Justice nomination controversy—Sandile Ngcobo

I think there's still time to add this. Jacob Zuma seems to have attracted some "abuse of power" criticism because of it. Nomination plus controversy. This type of item has featured at ITN recently (although not the South African version) so I imagine there would be little opposition? I haven't checked so it might require an update but that can be easily done. --candlewicke 16:50, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

  Done King of ♠ 19:22, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
The update is too short yet. --BorgQueen (talk) 19:30, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
The bolded article isn't even Jacob Zuma (I think). --candlewicke 19:34, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
I've removed this one from ITN because of the reason above. Even when updated, I am not really in favour of it - stepping down or similar action would be ITN for sure but mere accusation is questionable. --Tone 19:36, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Well the justice was named. This has been enough in the past. This one has controversy as well. --candlewicke 19:38, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Democratic Republic of Congo and Rwanda

Democratic Republic of Congo President Joseph Kabila and his Rwandan counterpart Paul Kagame sealed a restoration of diplomatic ties on Thursday in their first bilateral talks in over a decade. There is still time for this one I think if someone supports. --candlewicke 18:03, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

This is a good candidate, do we have an article? Kongo-Rwanda relations or similar? --Tone 19:36, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, I've been waiting a few days for somebody to OK it. Thanks. --candlewicke 19:40, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Oh no! After all that it doesn't even have one... there's just Foreign relations of the Democratic Republic of the Congo and Foreign relations of Rwanda but which one if any... decisions decisions... --candlewicke 19:46, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps link and embolden both, each with updates that relflect the situation from Congo-Kinshasa and Rwanda? Therequiembellishere (talk) 19:48, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Ah yes, that seems like a good idea! Does anybody else agree? --candlewicke 19:54, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Both are updated. 13 years after the countries ceased diplomatic relations, President Joseph Kabila of the Democratic Republic of the Congo and President Paul Kagame of Rwanda meet in Goma. --candlewicke 20:45, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Posting. --Tone 21:07, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Chad and Libya

Libya and Chad have signed seven agreements to boost trade, security and political co-operation --candlewicke 18:20, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

If I were to choose between this one and Kongo-Rwanda, I'd choose the latter. --Tone 19:36, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Why not both? This is today. The other is last week.   --candlewicke 19:40, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Well, I find the other one much more significant... I may be wrong, of course. --Tone 21:07, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Done. Not only did the Prime Ministers and several ministers meet but the President and leader of the two countries as well. Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi and Chadian President Idriss Deby met separately to discuss means of implementing resolutions to give the African Union a greater role in resolving African conflicts taken at July's AU summit in Libya. The two also discussed means of preserving Lake Chad, which satellite photos show has shrunk from 23 000 square kilometres to just 900 square kilometres in the past 40 years, in part because of greater irrigation. The AU and Lake Chad bits increase the significance of this I think.
Therefore, Prime Minister of Chad Youssouf Saleh Abbas and Prime Minister of Libya Baghdadi Mahmudi agree seven deals to improve security, trade and political co-operation between the two nations as Chadian President Idriss Déby and Libyan leader Muammar al-Gaddafi (pictured) discuss the future of Lake Chad and the African Union. The image was taken at the AU summit this year so it is recent and relates to what they were discussing. --candlewicke 00:08, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
The blurb is too long. --BorgQueen (talk) 19:07, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
I thought so but it contains all the information. Is there a rule on length? I suppose it could be cut in half. --candlewicke 19:16, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Typhoon updates

600 people buried. this is quite a big number. im not sure how we can add it to the current blurb but i think it deserves a mention. -- Ashish-g55 15:39, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

  Done - I updated it with what I felt would be a more "impressive" number. King of ♠ 19:22, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Well not for Mainpage.yousaf465' 04:08, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Violence in Iraq. 48 die.
I think it's not so usual. TouLouse (talk) 14:45, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Are these three sentences connected in any way? --candlewicke 14:53, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
That's what I am trying figure out. I was trying to clean it up. Karachi is in Pakistan. There is no article or ref to Iraq. I dunno.  Cargoking  talk  15:11, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
No connection with Karachi.TouLouse (talk) 15:25, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
This says 50 were killed last Friday which means this isn't that unusual. --candlewicke 19:12, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

August 9

ITN candidates for August 9

2009 Hudson River mid-air collision

9 died TouLouse (talk) 10:22, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

A normal enough air accident I think when compared to other recent incidents. Deaths aren't even double figures. Location doesn't really make it any more notable. I think this might be a good DYK though. --candlewicke 20:02, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
Oppose. Do we have to mention every single crash, bomb and shuttle launch? (No offense intended to anyone) Items tagged under "Hudson" and "Airplane" shouldn't be placed into ITN twice in a year.  Cargoking  talk  20:10, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
If this gets posted, while an Indonesian air crash (which had almost twice as many casualties) got rejected, I will have reason to accuse Wikipedia of US-centricism again. Cargoking's argumentation is good enough. Oppose. Offliner (talk) 20:59, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

MV Princess Ashika
Should the figures be updated on the main page for the Tonga ferry disaster if the sources seem reputable? News reports are saying that there are now, unfortunately, more than 26 missing. Scanlan (talk) 13:22, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
  Done King of ♠ 19:21, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

August 8

ITN candidates for August 8

Suicide bombing in Mauritania

Can anyone create an article? [26] --BorgQueen (talk) 19:19, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

2009 Nouakchott suicide bombing. --- TouLouse (talk) 20:14, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
Now it just needs to be expanded. --candlewicke 20:35, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
Well? Anyone? Form an orderly queue please. --candlewicke 02:06, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Even though its a first, 1 death (the bomber) is pretty weak. SpencerT♦Nominate! 02:17, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
This one had only two deaths. Sometimes one death says more than dozens. --candlewicke 14:59, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
I expanded the article tonight and added references. Scanlan (talk) 00:41, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
President interview from before the French embassy bombing --candlewicke 18:22, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Is it because all those who have commented haven't actually said support or oppose? Clarifying my support. --candlewicke 18:57, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Support - as first attack of this type in Mauritania -- TouLouse (talk) 19:07, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Support as well - The attack is an unfortunate milestone in Mauritanian history. It is also important to French-Mauritanian relations. Scanlan (talk) 15:03, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Posted by Master of Puppets. --candlewicke 01:25, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Typhoon "Morakot" (Kiko)

See nomination below under topic Hurricane Felicia made by Howard the Duck....SriMesh | talk 03:37, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Morakot is the offical name and support ill try and get an article together this afternoonJason Rees (talk) 16:07, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
Support. Wrecked huge damage.--Feinerman (talk) 04:00, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
Suggest a blurb please. --BorgQueen (talk) 05:00, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
Typhoon "Morakot" (Kiko)'s winds of 175 kilometers per hour winds with gusts of up to 210 kph created landslides, flash flooding, 6 metre high waves taking the lives of 30 in the Philippines, and six in Taiwan. 28,629 were affected in the Philippines but only 10% evacuated amidst the storm Friday evening, 252,000 were evacuated in Taiwan before it hit Saturday, over 953,000 as China prepares for the storm apporach on Sunday morning.XinhuaSunStar This is too long...will try again in a minute or two...SriMesh | talk 05:12, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
Typhoon Morakot kills at least 36 people in the Philippines and Taiwan after producing a record-breaking 2489 mm (98 in) of rainfall. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 05:19, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
I like that above one a lot,... this was going to be my shorter one...:::Typhoon "Morakot" (Kiko) hit the Philippines Friday night and Taiwan Saturday, killing, injuring and displacing citizens in torrential storms bearing high winds, flash floods and land slides, and is forcing the evacuation of nearly one million Chinese before making landfall there Sunday morning.SriMesh | talk 05:23, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
Posted. --BorgQueen (talk) 05:24, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

August 7

ITN candidates for August 7

Mexico violence

11 deaths after a shootout in Pachuca, Mexico. I think that's need an article. (2009 Pachuca shootings) --- TouLouse (talk) 15:46, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Added information about this shootout to (the long article) Timeline of the Mexican Drug War and created above article. Thursday was busy in the Mexico Drug War with simultaneous shootouts occuring across several cities resulting in multiple deaths, injuries and seizures by police. (Perhaps the title should be changed) SriMesh | talk 21:25, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Posted. --BorgQueen (talk) 09:21, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Coordinated DDOS across major sites.

how does this look. Ashish-g55 12:52, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Twitter is still slow. I'd support this too. –Howard the Duck 16:51, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Selvarasa Pathmanathan
Wait I think.yousaf465'
The location of the arrest is undisclosed. Claims of Thailand and Malaysia seem to be speculation.[28][29] I have updated the article. The arrest was confirmed by Sri Lankan authorities who say he was brought to Colombo.[30] Time to put it up, do you think? ≈ Chamal talk 09:27, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
A change of the blurb is in order I think, to reflect the new info. ≈ Chamal talk 09:30, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Support this. –Howard the Duck 16:51, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
I tend to agree with yousaf465 that we should wait until he gets convicted. --BorgQueen (talk) 16:56, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Death of Baitullah Mehsud
No picture of his body to prove it? Not that I am desperate to see it, but he has been rumoured to have died before. --BorgQueen (talk) 15:23, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Second thoughts: we have official confirmations from both sides so I suppose it is solid enough. Support. Anyone willing to update? --BorgQueen (talk) 15:34, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Support. The article is a tad confusing but it does say he died. But 30 minutes ago AP wrote that the U.S. cannot confirm. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:47, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Headline on BBC states "There are growing indications that Pakistan's most wanted man, Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud, has been killed by a US missile."... growing indications... still sounds a little iffy. its a support. but i would suggest waiting a little bit more -- Ashish-g55 15:56, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Support due to the location I doubt if further evidence will be available anytime soon. The article Drone attacks in Pakistan has been updated also. AP is stating that plans for selecting his successor are well on their way[31]. Wikireader41 (talk) 23:37, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
I would urge to wait, because our third source U.S the main culprit, still not confirm it and also there is lot of doubt still exist [32]. So we can't rely on these and than face something like government officials had to face on the occasion of his second marriage.yousaf465'
  • His aide has denied his death, and say he is still commanding his force. they will be presenting such evidence. yousaf465'
the world press is reporting him dead. [33], [34], [35], [36]. anybody who claims to be Baitullah Mehsud from this point on ( I am sure impostors will be out there) will have an impossible task to prove he indeed is Mehsud. what is that guy going to do. provide DNA evidence ??? This is big news. I cant see how anybody can CONFIRM that Mehsud survived the attack either ???? would support using language like "Baitullah Mehsud reported/ believed to be killed in a Drone strike"Wikireader41 (talk) 16:35, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
It is best if we avoid weasel words on Main Page. --BorgQueen (talk) 16:43, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
Sure. The fact I was trying to to emphasize was that he is reported dead by multiple RS. His notoriety and this extensive coverage of his possible death itself makes it noteworthy and a candidate for inclusion in ITN IMHO. also 100% confirmation is going to be very difficult & possibly will never happen according to some sources considering the locale. if there was a possiblility that we could get confirmation either way in a few days/weeks I wiould have supported waiting too. Wikireader41 (talk) 17:46, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
I agree with BorgQueen. yousaf465'
would US national security adviser James L. Jones statements help change anybodies mind Taliban leader's death a sign of success in Pakistan: US. 19:31, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
Not really because Jones said he is 90% sure. The article is being updated. I would give them a week to find a belonging for DNA testing, and maybe another week for the Taliban to make up its mind. Four of these guys called the press to say he's still alive. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:56, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
neither of these is likely to happen in 1-2 weeks. You would need to find a dead body to do DNA testing with reasonable amount of tissue on it. a belonging just would not do. Some crazy from FATA is likely going to claim to be Mehsud Off and On. Wikireader41 (talk) 22:10, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
His aide told the BBC he is 'ill'. That's five phone calls to the press. Given the circumstances I think we ought to wait for certain news. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:36, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
Government still not has material evidence for it, and also remember Tribal leader( who have an important say in any matter) have denied that he has died DNA test soon, says interior ministry. --yousaf465' 05:34, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

August 6

ITN candidates for August 6

Hurricane Felicia
Hurricane Felicia becomes the first cyclone to pose a direct threat to Hawaii since Hurricane Iniki in 1992.

A Google search of just "hurricane" shows that Felicia has more hits than Hurricane Katrina, which has had the most since 2005. I'm quite amazed that it has that many hits so I believe it is very much of public interest and a rare storm. Although it's forecast to become weaker before hitting the islands, the structure of the storm may allow it to maintain a higher intensity than forecast so I think this storm is definitely ITN worthy. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 01:37, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

sounds like crystal balling to me. oppose till it actually becomes a threat to hawaii. no point in posting "pose a threat" Ashish-g55 01:58, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
It is not crystal balling it is off a threat to Hawaii.[37]Jason Rees (talk) 02:01, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
i meant if it does some damage*... let it make landfall first. we dont usually post upcoming storms. before it makes landfall its pretty much crystal balling Ashish-g55 02:06, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
I think the hurricane should be watched for would be truly devasting if it did strike Hawaii. I am glad folks are preparingSriMesh | talk 02:08, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Oppose item as currently presented until significant amounts of people die or record breaking damges are caused. Isn't the US content enough with the judge and former President? --candlewicke 02:24, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Oppose until something actually happens. Algebraist 02:26, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
AP says that Felicia is weakening, but is still a Category 4 storm, and tropical storm Enrique has weakened to a tropical depression.SriMesh | talk 02:58, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
Here's one pretty nasty storm. Section's in bad shape, though. –Howard the Duck 10:56, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Support ABS-CBN News and GMANews.TV report Phillipines hit by Typhoon Morakot (Kiko) made landfall resulting in ten dead, ten villages flooded by four to five feet deep floods forcing evacuations of close to 2,000, landslides, mudslides, gusting winds up to 210 km per hour, altogether 28 villages or over 28,000 people affected. Search and rescue attempts underwaySriMesh | talk 03:09, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
Supporta large number of people has been affected.yousaf465'

Japan jury

Japan’s first jury trial in more than a half-century The new jury system is the result of a major overhaul of Japan's legal system, aimed at speeding up trials and offering greater transparency... Until now Japanese trials have been decided by a panel of judges. --candlewicke 00:52, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Support Multiple WP articles should be updated with this new info Juries in Japan and Criminal justice system of Japan and the news article is hitting several independent news media internationally [[38]].SriMesh | talk 02:08, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Above articles mentioned updatedSriMesh | talk 04:08, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Any more supports? --candlewicke 02:27, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Vulture births

Conservationists say they are delighted at the news that one of the world's most endangered birds has twice been successfully bred in India. Two slender billed vultures, which experts say are rarer and more endangered than the tiger, are being reared in Haryana and West Bengal. Just the type of thing an encyclopedia should have on its Main Page (I think). Article is at Slender-billed Vulture. --candlewicke 00:18, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Leaning towards support. --BorgQueen (talk) 00:37, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
This one too, I am leaning towards support for an encyclopaedic in the news entry, and it has been mentioned in three or four news sources now as well. Added three citations and five sentences ~ three paragraphs worth to the article.SriMesh | talk 01:52, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
support. population is said to be 50-100... that is amazingly low. Ashish-g55 02:04, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
support if population is at this level.yousaf465'
wait i read it wrong... thats only in cambodia. worldwide its more like 1k. still pretty low considering they got less than a decade to extinction. Ashish-g55 12:56, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Updated, posting soon. --BorgQueen (talk) 16:12, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

A rare meeting between DR Congo and Rwanda

The talks took place 13 years after the neighbours broke diplomatic relations. Would go well with Bill Clinton's rare trip to North Korea. --candlewicke 23:37, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Any comment? Has anyone read or heard of this? --candlewicke 02:26, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Belgian fire

The fire broke out at the Kanunnik Triest home, which houses about 90 residents. Only several people were killed though and it was at a retirement home so they were all probably old and about to die anyway and it was in Belgium (which not a US state) so it mightn't be enough judging by previous opposes and supports. But maybe worth a try anyway.   --candlewicke 23:21, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

It is tragic that nine died, three ended up in the critical care unit and 30 had smoke inhalation injuries, and the hopelessness/helplessness of rescuing the elderly and physically infirm from such a disaster, however at the moment other European news events are more notable.SriMesh | talk 01:52, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Which events? I think this is the only European nomination today so these probably should be discussed too. --candlewicke 02:35, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, fair enough... Russia and Turkey agree on South Stream pipeline projectXinhua; However as I look around more now, a few hours later.... CBC news, Reuters and ABC News place this story as one of their top rated European news stories now.SriMesh | talk 04:27, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Death of John Hughes
Oppose. Sorry to hear he died so young. I do understand the nomination I think. But I have never heard of him -SusanLesch (talk) 22:43, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Support - The deceased was a very important figure in their field of expertise, and was recognised as such. [39] SriMesh | talk 00:53, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Oppose, partly per this discussion. Being a film buff myself, I know who he is but he was in no way a maestro. --BorgQueen (talk) 01:01, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
ya he was famous but i dont think he ever stood out. like steven spielberg or peter jackson... so oppose Ashish-g55 01:16, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Putting my own opinions aside, apparently he "revolutionized the business of film" and was "one of the first directors who assumed a teenage approach to teen material". One review said Ferris Bueller's Day Off "exhibits John Hughes on an off day". That source also compares him to Judy Garland... --candlewicke 02:20, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Note: Just noticed he is well ahead of any other article on the popular pages list and also occupies 4th spot. The Sotomayor woman is stuck in 7th with 23,000 less page views. Not that I'm for these types of statistics but anyway... --candlewicke 02:46, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
According to this, the Sotomayor article had 426.7k views in one day of May 2009 when Obama nominated her. Hughes has 168k. Again, as if these stats supposed to mean something... Then again, if that's the case, if the 2009 Ashes gets to be added, then certainly UAAP Season 72 won't be that far behind, or is actually ahead... –Howard the Duck 03:12, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

International talks over Madagascar situation in Mozamabique

The country's four main political leaders, including former presidents Didier Ratsiraka and Albert Zafy, are meeting for first-time direct talks in the Mozambican capital in an internationally-backed effort to end the crisis. --candlewicke 20:28, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Any comments? Madagascar is a serious international political topic which has featured on ITN in the past. --candlewicke 02:39, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
I believe these talks should be followed and the 2009 Malagasy protests /2009 Malagasy political crisis articles updated along with the related articles on Marc Ravalomanana Andry Rajoelina so that when a verdict, outcome results from these talks it can be reported upon here. It is a main topic with international and local ripple effects; hopefully the dispute can be successfully mediated at these talks...however something actually has to happen first.... IMHO SriMesh | talk 04:42, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Timothy P. Villagomez

Timothy P. Villagomez sentenced to seven years and three months in prison for his role in the Rydlyme corruption scandal --candlewicke 20:08, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Sonia Sotomayor Supreme Court nomination

Sotomayor is expected to be confirmed, based on the announced intentions of 98 Senators, and I would suggest adding this when the confirmation is officially voted on within the next few hours. Gage (talk) 18:16, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

hmm she gets nominated here everytime there is any movement in her nominee situation. i think this is like 3rd or 4th. oppose on a general basis that she is not head of state. then oppose again for the fact that she hasnt even been sworn in yet. Ashish-g55 18:50, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
None of the developments previous to today were as substantial as an official appointment to the highest court in the United States. I do not understand your logic. Gage (talk) 18:56, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
logic is quite simple. She is not the president of united states. every single country out there has some sort of supreme court or equivalent and they all have their own nominees. we only post head of state and that should not change just because this one involves US. we have already discussed this in quite a bit of detail before so i am not gonna argue over it anymore. if some admin wants to post it without consensus like they did last time then sure. but its an oppose from me. i will leave it to other people now. Ashish-g55 19:03, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Wow, you are so right. How dare I question your judgement? Gage (talk) 19:32, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Not that I am opposing your nomination, but the diffs you've linked to are from 2006 and 2005. Can you find a more recent example? --BorgQueen (talk) 19:37, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
lol 2005 diff looks like CNN? good thing ITN has grown in last 3 years. Ashish-g55 19:39, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
This happens every year? Thankfully ITN is a lot less US-centric now then. I think it belongs at WikiNews. --candlewicke 19:38, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
A more recent example? Both diffs were of the most recent United States Supreme Court nominees being confirmed and sworn in. I see no discrepancy in a difference of ITN policy, within the last three years, that should exclude Sotomayor's inclusion, despite Ashishg55's claim. Gage (talk) 19:43, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
I have to disagree. Wikipedia is a busy place, where a lot of things can change in just one year. I've posted a couple of items with slight hints of US-centricity myself, such as Obama's Cairo speech, and they were shot down just after a few hours. You see, it is not just about the ITN policy, but the general consensus of Wikipedia that we have to avoid any perceived Anglo-centricity on Main Page. I am personally curious how many hours your item will take to be removed from MP, if I post it. --BorgQueen (talk) 20:00, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
There is no reason whatsoever for anyone to claim that the confirmation of a member United States Supreme Court is not worthy of being included. Gage (talk) 20:11, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
You are entitled to your own opinion, but I didn't ask for it. I was just trying to explain my position here, i.e. why I am not going to post your item. Perhaps some other admin might want to take his/her chances, but I am not thrilled to see the aftermath. --BorgQueen (talk) 20:23, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Oppose. How many more times is this woman going to be nominated? I'd hate to think what would happen if she decided to run for her country's presidency... and then if she actually got elected?   --candlewicke 19:35, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
None of the current items listed on ITN involve the United States, with the small exception of Bill Clinton in North Korea. Gage (talk) 19:45, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
SUPPORT. This confirmation (NOT APPOINTMENT) has historical value. Simply using "not Head of..." and an argument does not fit the process of the other In the News articles (journalists are not head of anything, nor are diseases). This section is "In the News", not "In the Government's Upper Epsilon." First Hispanic/Woman on the Highest Court of the most powerful country in the world is suffice enough for Approval Sirkevinalot (talk) 19:48, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Support. No it does not happen every year. This court is the third arm of the United States government. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:49, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
wow. i thought this has been discussed thoroughly but i guess people only come by when they need some particular blurb posted. YES this is "In the Government's Upper Epsilon" (well technically speaking). Every country has a government. would u rather have us post every single nominee or appointment from all sorts of positions in every country. And making claims about most powerful country is rather naive for ITN and will never pass. i can argue China is more powerful in many ways. Ashish-g55 19:54, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Ah well, since you're all here now do you mind commenting on any of the other international nominations as well? There are some which haven't been made yet but I'll get round to it soon when I manoeuvre my way around all the edit conflicts. --candlewicke 19:55, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Deal. Collect the other nominees who have been confirmed/approved, and who are the "firsts" in that nation, and I will vote yea/nea. Simply being nominated is Such-and-Such Country is not relative to this nomination. She is of historical importance to our government. And Ashishg55, I will settle that the US is not THE most powerful, but rather "one of the most powerful." Sirkevinalot (talk) 20:04, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
I meant ITN nominations. There are Belgian and Sudanese ones from yesterday which nobody has yet opposed/supported. There is also a jail sentence above this now. I would like sources for "one of the most powerful". --candlewicke 20:11, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Here, (Wikipedia-G8), (Wikipedia-GDP). These outline ranks Sirkevinalot (talk) 20:18, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Well, apart from Wikipedia not being a reliable source for itself, I learned that the European Union (27 countries) was above the United States on several lists. But that's not an argument for here. --candlewicke 20:24, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Support, she's confirmed and it's notable. Get her up there and let's get a woman on the main page for a few hours. Darrenhusted (talk) 20:29, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
just saying its notable doesnt quite make it so. please prove your point like we all have tried to prove ours above (many times before too). and quoting Sirkevinalot "She is of historical importance to our government" ..... seriously, whats our lol. are you assuming all of us here and ppl on wikipedia are all from US. Ashish-g55 20:34, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
And yet 25% of Wikipedia's traffic belongs to the United States. Gage (talk) 20:42, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Notable, for one thing, because the last justice was an ITN item. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:37, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Then it would be valid to post every single mistake and ITN that was taken down due to complaints in the past. And post her just because she's a woman? Even so, the two journalists are women so they outnumber Bill Clinton unless he can divide himself in three and have a sex change. --candlewicke 20:41, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Well as i said earlier us discussing anything is usually a moot point since when it comes to US some admin will post it either way. most of the times without even coming to this page. go admin power woohoo Ashish-g55 20:53, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
    • Supreme Court nominees are major news not only in the United States but in the international press. Added to ITN. Mike H. Fierce! 20:55, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
      • But how significant is it for an encyclopedia? Not how big is it perceived to be. Never mind. Again, in vain, is it too much to ask all visitors and guests to take the time to review some of the other candidates, please and thank you. (Note:ITN candidates, not Supreme Court candidates). --candlewicke 21:23, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
        • ITN criteria state "international interest OR significance. Keyword to note is "or." –Howard the Duck 02:16, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
This is a huge first not just in the US, but also for Puerto Rico and for Latin America more generally, a region of the world in which the US has a lot of influence. So there is a great deal of international significance. I wouldn't be opposed to covering more inner-workings of China, for example, but their legislature has only recently started exerting more control, so I'm not sure what to cover.--chaser (talk) 04:57, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Support. I opposed the nomination and feel I was correct, as the first nomination of a Hispanic candidate is not of sufficient interest or notability. However the first successful appointment is Nil Einne (talk) 08:29, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

MV Princess Ashika

26 missing --- TouLouse (talk) 06:48, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Support, suggested hook: MV Princess Ashika, an inter-island ferry operating in the south Pacific nation of Tonga, has sunk with at least 26 people missing, feared drowned. -- Mattinbgn\talk 08:01, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Some changes to that proposal: The MV Princess Ashika, an inter-island ferry operating in Tonga, sinks, leaving at least 26 people missing. -- tariqabjotu 09:30, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
The article is too short at the moment. --BorgQueen (talk) 13:13, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Is that enough now? --candlewicke 16:14, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes, posting soon. --BorgQueen (talk) 16:23, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

August 5

ITN candidates for August 5

Sudanese boat sinks

"People on the island said they had not seen an incident like it for more than 40 years." --candlewicke 21:04, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Oppose. Sorry that several people died. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:35, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
But that's the point. Several people died in a way not seen for at least 40 years. --candlewicke 23:04, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
All right. Does that mean we need to write a new article? -SusanLesch (talk) 00:47, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Probably. I wonder if there are many sources... --candlewicke 00:54, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
I found two sources. But only enough to write wikinews:Eleven drown when Sudanese boat sinks. -SusanLesch (talk) 02:02, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Here is another one. --candlewicke 02:10, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Belgian escapes

Anything in this for ITN? --candlewicke 20:42, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

"Freddy Horion, convicted of multiple murders, has now sued the state for not allowing him to exercise in the fresh air". --candlewicke 20:44, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Oppose. Isolated instance has nothing for ITN. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:35, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
I've updated Mahmoud Ahmadinejad myself (sigh)... posting soon. --BorgQueen (talk) 14:48, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, I was beginning with the older articles. --candlewicke 15:31, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Plane accidents - total 17 have died dozens were injured
Oppose. Some of the articles are too short, and three of them have one to zero fatalities. --BorgQueen (talk) 13:45, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
This is becoming more like traffic accidents. posting all of them would look very weird. oppose. i think a plane crashing in total catastrophe are only ones that should be posted not skidding off and everyone surviving unless something very uncommon happened (like landing in water or smth). Ashish-g55 14:55, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Collier Township Shooting of 2009

4 die TouLouse (talk) 08:43, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

support. I think it need a place now, but with expansions   yousaf465'
Is this a notable shooting though? The article at present doesn't say much and, compared to 2009 Tel Aviv gay centre shooting spree (which was AfDed much more quickly in a similar state), there is nothing that stands out about it or has led to widespread political reaction, candle-light vigils, protests, etc. As American shootings go it is hardly up there with Columbine High School massacre and Virginia Tech massacre or even the Binghamton shootings from earlier this year. Also, this has happened already in Pittsburgh this year. In fact, shootings appear to be quite common in that country? --candlewicke 15:45, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Therefore I oppose. --candlewicke 15:57, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Article is now a redirect which is much worse than an AfD. --candlewicke 15:58, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
I also get this idea that these incidents are quite common in that country. Anyone belonging to that country could please elaborate. yousaf465'
i wouldnt call it common per say but yes they do tend to happen. we have featured shootings that generated worldwide interest before but this one doesnt seem too big. so oppose Ashish-g55 17:36, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

August 4

ITN candidates for August 4

Crash of Bangkok Airways flight PG 266.

Tourist from many countries were onboard.yousaf465'

Not enough deaths unfortunately. --candlewicke 19:10, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
While I agree I don't think it's significant enough for ITN, your comment is perhaps a bit poorly worded Nil Einne (talk) 18:07, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Death of Naomi Sims

The woman known as the world's first black supermodel has died at the age of 61. --candlewicke 01:15, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Isn't it bit odd ? yousaf465'
I don't know. Possibly. --candlewicke 12:42, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Improper Hand Signal Ticket

TheStar. Not gesture. signal. LOL. Dare anyone oppose this? (yes i know. i was just bored) Ashish-g55 23:19, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Death of Amos Kenan

Here. Don't know anything about this person but maybe someone else does? --candlewicke 21:57, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


Bill Clinton, American Journalists and North Korea

Bill Clinton visits North Korea to negotiate the release of two imprisoned American television journalists. (NYT)--Cdogsimmons (talk) 20:15, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

U.S-centric non-notable news unless the release actually takes place and Bill has a hand in it.--WaltCip (talk) 16:59, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
hmm can someone comment on how often does x/president of US has visited NK. This might actually be notable if it doesnt happen often. seems like a fairly risky visit. Ashish-g55 19:31, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
BBC "The last visit to North Korea by a former American president - Jimmy Carter in 1994"... actually this does not happen all that often. i think this story although US centric still manages to get worldwide interest due to north korean involvement. so i will give it support. also i believe both journalists got a pardon. Ashish-g55 19:38, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Agree it's US-centric but support anyway. Highly unusual given North Korea's secluded status. Would also support if it was Putin visiting. Colipon+(T) 20:57, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
No, no, no. The blurb should be all about the release of the two, possibly with a mention of Clinton at the end but he can't be the focus. If that happens, I'll support. And a Putin visit would have been very different - he's still the Russian prime minister. Therequiembellishere (talk) 21:08, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Agree that NK's release of the journalists is the primary story. Suggest blurb be reworded as North Korea pardons two imprisoned American television journalists during visit by former U.S. President Bill Clinton. --Allen3 talk 21:22, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
I think after seeing the headline "Bill Clinton meets NKorea's Kim on historic trip" in The Sydney Morning Herald I will support this one too. --candlewicke 21:26, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Agree to above editors that Clinton should not be focus. Colipon+(T) 21:28, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
North Korea – United States relations then? --candlewicke 21:30, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Bold-faced focus should be 2009 imprisonment of American journalists by North Korea. Colipon+(T) 21:32, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
That has already been on ITN. --candlewicke 21:39, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Note: The BBC currently says (from about 1 hour ago): "North Korean state media say Mr Clinton has now left the country but did not say if the journalists are with him. However, US officials quoted by the Associated Press news agency said there was no indication that Mr Clinton's private plane had departed. The officials say Mr Clinton's mission was expected to end "within a few hours" and that, if all goes well, he would fly to the US with the women on his plane, according to AP." Perhaps we should wait for both sides to confirm this and for Clinton and company to actually be seen again? --candlewicke 22:25, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
lol dont want him to get stuck in north korea. then thats a totally new category of news. i would support for both the journalist and the relations being bolded. if journalists were released without clinton this would not make it up. so i think his visit is equally big a headline. Ashish-g55 22:34, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
on second look i dont see much content in the relations page about this visit hmm. so screw bolding... Above suggestion by Allen3 is fine -- North Korea pardons two imprisoned American journalists during visit by former U.S. President Bill Clinton. Ashish-g55 22:41, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Yeah I would wait until the dust settles to report on this one. Colipon+(T) 23:04, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
The visit only happened today so the relations page hasn't had much time to be updated yet. --candlewicke 23:13, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Sigh, seems to have been posted anyway. Did everybody get their credits, etc? --candlewicke 23:28, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
What's with this credits thing? I thought Wikipedia is voluntary work. This is not even DYK where "international-ness" is a reason to reject potential items. –Howard the Duck 04:02, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you mean? I was just wondering if all the usual things had been done but if they have it is fine.   --candlewicke 12:37, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


Sudan clashes - 185 deaths --- TouLouse (talk) 08:27, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Is there an article? Offliner (talk) 12:22, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Must be updated this article 2009 Sudanese nomadic conflicts...I think... ---TouLouse (talk) 13:35, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Support. Colipon+(T) 21:28, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Over 180 nomads are killed and over 30 are injured as they fish in nomadic conflicts in Sudan. --candlewicke 16:02, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Posted. --BorgQueen (talk) 16:10, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

August 3

ITN candidates for August 3

This has already been nominated. --candlewicke 13:19, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes but you didn't propose a blurb. You have my (obvious) support anyway, so feel free to update the relevant articles. --BorgQueen (talk) 13:34, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Posted. --BorgQueen (talk) 15:12, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

"The Pacific Tsunami Warning Centre told Sky News there was no major cause for alarm or fear of a tsunami as it was contained in the Gulf. He said residents along the Baja coast may experience some light flooding but not massive damage". Thanks but I am not sure this ITNworthy (yet).   --candlewicke 19:00, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Note: Moved to 2009 Gulf of California earthquake. --candlewicke 00:19, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Ali Khamenei formally approves presidency of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

+++++This one has been done now I think. --candlewicke 16:40, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Pneumonic plague in China
I was looking at this one earlier and thought the death toll was a bit small for what after all is only the second least common version of the plague (according to the article). I was also unsure if one town is good enough for ITN as it does not seem to be internationally significant (at least yet). I will therefore wait for the input of others as it may be possible that some would make the same points. --candlewicke 15:31, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Also, the population of the town is 10,000 which seems small when compared to this. --candlewicke 15:54, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
sigh. very slow news week. i will support since there are 3 deaths now... Ashish-g55 15:45, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Posted. --BorgQueen (talk) 16:08, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Would still support the Chifeng water system pollution over the plague thing in Qinghai. The Chifeng thing is extremely serious and I don't recall anything similar happening since the Taihu water tainting back in '06... it's just the article would need major updates. Colipon+(T) 21:02, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Deep Joshi

"Indian NGO activist, Deep Joshi, among announced 2009 Magsaysay awards, considered as Asia's Nobel Prize." -- Tinu Cherian - 11:44, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Are these awards open to anyone? --candlewicke 14:56, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
See Ramon Magsaysay Award , Category:Ramon Magsaysay Award winners and List of Magsaysay awardees for more info -- Tinu Cherian - 16:05, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
My understanding is that it open to people from Asia only? This may or may not be good enough although it doesn't seem to compare to the other ITN awards so I will wait to see what others think. It could open up all sorts of regional awards as well so there may be wider consequences of including it. If it is included I imagine it would be a candidate for WP:ITNR. --candlewicke 17:10, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
May be the award is for people of Asian countries, but it is a very notable award known all around the world. Refer to this article by BBC as 'Asian Nobel Prize' -- Tinu Cherian - 17:20, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
I understand that and am just cautious of opening the floodgates to other awards so I will wait for other opinions before further action. --candlewicke 17:36, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Any second opinion? -- Tinu Cherian - 14:12, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Oppose, there were many recipients to the prize[41], why should we choose this one? Choosing just him would be subjective selection. The prize itself is notable though. Offliner (talk) 14:22, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

August 2

ITN candidates for August 2

A new strain of HIV discovered
Anyone willing to update? --BorgQueen (talk) 17:45, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
Maybe... though there's a large queue forming... --candlewicke 21:47, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
I think I will wait for some supports. --candlewicke 22:24, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
Support.   --BorgQueen (talk) 11:14, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
I meant from others.   --candlewicke 14:58, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, I know... A little humour please. Besides, it has been more than 2 days since the last update. Do you really need support from others, especially when this ITN playground is so empty and quiet? --BorgQueen (talk) 15:04, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
That's why I used the smile in case it is misunderstood as a negative. I am aware of this but asking has been unsuccessful, I have been trying too and I have updated two, one of which was opposed afterwards and the other AfDed. Mozart and others have also been opposed. I therefore thought it best to wait for some wider input before doing any more. It is based upon consensus after all. Playground?   --candlewicke 15:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Support.  Cargoking  talk  20:22, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Done. --candlewicke 21:32, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Posted. --BorgQueen (talk) 05:08, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Missing plane

Merpati Nusantara Airlines Flight 9760 with 16 people is missing in Indonesia The JakartaPost Malaysia Yahoo News Indonesian Merpati flight missing over Papua --- TouLouse (talk) 14:22, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Not sure if 16 people is enough? --candlewicke 22:17, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
16 people is definitely enough. We have posted many smaller air accidents as well. Those were mostly in Europe or USA, but the fact that this one is in Indonesia does not make it any less important. However, the article needs to expanded first. Offliner (talk) 22:21, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
Which ones though? There are several examples with a lot more than 16, such as this, this, this or this. Iran, etc. isn't in Europe either. --candlewicke 22:32, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

New works of Mozart

2 new works of mozart have been found. Not too many details yet. they are to be released Aug 2. i think this is definitely noteworthy but maybe wait till more details arrive? Ashish-g55 (talk) 22:41, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

More info appears. BBC. Ashish-g55 16:53, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
Oppose, as they are only minor works. Offliner (talk) 21:57, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Gay shooting

Death, injury --candlewicke 04:34, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Worst incident targeting the gay community in Israel --candlewicke 04:36, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
I began the article (it's currently at AfD though). --candlewicke 15:11, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
Support. This really stands out. (I won't be appearing on this page much for a while. I am on a wikibreak for a few days).  Cargoking  talk  20:59, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
Oh. No. Do hurry back.   --candlewicke 21:40, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
No longer on AfD, this article (I realize there's no link to it; here it is: 2009 Tel Aviv gay centre shooting spree) is already B-class, well sourced, and ought to go up. Support. BobAmnertiopsisChatMe! 23:22, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Posting soon. --BorgQueen (talk) 14:59, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

August 1

ITN candidates for August 1

Rare treasure found

In the Gobi Desert. --candlewicke 18:18, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Wow, Support  , any photo? TouLouse (talk) 18:25, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
I don't know. Could you please look at the Altinum nomination under yesterday and leave a comment? It too involves a discovery. :) --candlewicke 18:32, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
aww i was hoping for like 7000 years old. well either way i support if there is good article somewhere. Ashish-g55 00:26, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
Hmmm... there doesn't appear to be... Gobi Desert isn't in a particularly good state... --candlewicke 22:34, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't think so. Not after Sant Pol de Mar bus crash was opposed yesterday despite involving tourists from a different country and getting coverage around the world. That would be my take on it anyway. --candlewicke 17:34, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Russia signs a deal to open a second military base in Kyrgyzstan
Or perhaps better if we update the Collective Security Treaty Organisation article, which is significantly outdated, as well. --BorgQueen (talk) 11:54, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Support. Looks pretty good candidate to me.yousaf465'
Opposed for now per this comment by me. Moved to future events under November. --candlewicke 18:25, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

8 killed in Anti Christian violence in Pakistan
Support. --candlewicke 19:51, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
Support -- Tinu Cherian - 12:00, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Posted. --BorgQueen (talk) 16:26, 4 August 2009 (UTC)