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Deleting an experienced editor and keeping Viraj Mithani edit
I'm done dealing with nonsense like this [1]. If a promo article that ledes with statements like "...where contradictory forms bombard our thoughts and gazes." and is authored by an account that is probably a sock and was blocked as a "Spam / advertising-only account",[2] isn't G11 I'm in the wrong place. I've had my NPP flag removed,[3], and doubt I will continue contributing in anyway. @Bbb23: has won the game they've been playing with me, but it cost Wikipedia an editor. I'm well aware there is little concern about losing experienced editors, but eventually it will catch up with Wikipedia (and clearly is having an impact at AfC, AfD, and NPP). // Timothy :: talk 17:17, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'm really quite confident Bbb23 is not trying to get rid of you. There are graceful ways to leave if you're sick of a place, but coming to AN on your way out the door just to blame it on one person who disagrees with you on the definition of a G11 isn't one of them. Hope you find some peace and come back in a better frame of mind. You've done a lot of good work. Floquenbeam (talk) 17:28, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- Timothy, I hope your absence isn't forever. I have taken two extended WikiBreaks during my 11 years here, the first for 6 months when I was a new editor and got into what seemed like a dispute that would never end (that editor left Wikipedia during my time away) and later for 2 years after some changing life circumstances. Both times I came back to Wikipedia renewed and ready to get to work. So don't say goodbye forever, if stress or ongoing conflicts are wearing you down, change your environment for a week, a month or several months. Come back after you have cleared your head and differences that could be driving you crazy now might not seem so catastrophic. But I agree with Floq, you've contributed a lot to Wikipedia and I'd hate if you slammed the door shut forever on your way out. Take care. Liz Read! Talk! 20:57, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- I've deleted this article as G11 (having been created by a spam SPA to boot), no comment on the other issues. jp×g🗯️ 03:02, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Why did you salt it with the summary "Repeatedly recreated"? It was created once. DanCherek (talk) 04:17, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- JPxG, CSD is for uncontroversial deletion. The deletion is by definition controversial if someone has objected to it, admin or not. So, what you've done constitutes abuse of tools, sorry to say. — Usedtobecool ☎️ 04:41, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- If you want to open a DRV I can undelete the page, but: the article itself was slop, and it was such slop its creator was indeffed for spam, and Special:DeletedContributions/Sakshi.shah123 is nothing but slop. The AfD had 3+1 to speedy-delete and 2 to delete, so it seems like a completely foregone conclusion. jp×g🗯️ 04:58, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- That's irrelevant. Admins often do things I disapprove of that I let go because it does not matter much. Whether this article is deleted now or six days later does not matter much to me either. But since we are on the admin's noticeboard writing stuff that will be archived forever, I felt it important to point out that admins should not be speedily deleting pages where CSDs have already been declined, even by non-admins. In this case, it was a very experienced admin. Even in the AFD, there's a comment saying they want the AFD to proceed because it's not an obvious CSD case. If you're taking AFD votes into account, then perhaps you wanted to deleted under WP:SNOW, not WP:G11. I don't know if SNOW would be a good call but it would at least not be an unambiguous bad call like CSDing a page under the same criteria that's been declined before by another experienced editor. — Usedtobecool ☎️ 05:13, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- @TimothyBlue: I do not want to comment on who is right or wrong here. I just want to say that we need you. Please do take some time off. Sometimes we all have to move on disagreements for the better of all. No shame in it. Lightburst (talk) 14:43, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- +1 Very good advice. I share those sentiments. El_C 05:26, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- @TimothyBlue: I do not want to comment on who is right or wrong here. I just want to say that we need you. Please do take some time off. Sometimes we all have to move on disagreements for the better of all. No shame in it. Lightburst (talk) 14:43, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- That's irrelevant. Admins often do things I disapprove of that I let go because it does not matter much. Whether this article is deleted now or six days later does not matter much to me either. But since we are on the admin's noticeboard writing stuff that will be archived forever, I felt it important to point out that admins should not be speedily deleting pages where CSDs have already been declined, even by non-admins. In this case, it was a very experienced admin. Even in the AFD, there's a comment saying they want the AFD to proceed because it's not an obvious CSD case. If you're taking AFD votes into account, then perhaps you wanted to deleted under WP:SNOW, not WP:G11. I don't know if SNOW would be a good call but it would at least not be an unambiguous bad call like CSDing a page under the same criteria that's been declined before by another experienced editor. — Usedtobecool ☎️ 05:13, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- If you want to open a DRV I can undelete the page, but: the article itself was slop, and it was such slop its creator was indeffed for spam, and Special:DeletedContributions/Sakshi.shah123 is nothing but slop. The AfD had 3+1 to speedy-delete and 2 to delete, so it seems like a completely foregone conclusion. jp×g🗯️ 04:58, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
Please review my revdel edit
I just deleted about 5 years of history from Ubbi dubbi. I couldn't find any specific reason listed to justify it, so I guess it's WP:IAR. Noting it here for the record. RoySmith (talk) 19:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Regrettable, but if that link is to malware now, then it is also a link to malware everywhere in the history, and this is a good revdel. RD3 covers links to malware, though, IAR wasn't necessary. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 19:03, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed on both counts. For the record while it might be five years of history it was only 64 revisions, which on the whole isn't that "big" of an issue (in either sense of the word). Primefac (talk) 19:04, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- I don't know how big a software change it would be, but I wonder how many people would be upset if links that are currently on the WP:SBL become unclickable. That is, readers just a see a bare URL in the text, and have to copy-paste it to the address bar. This time it was only 64 revisions. But what happens if some source that's been used in United States since the very beginning is hijacked and starts delivering malware? Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 20:20, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- This seems like it would be a good approach, though I also don't know how big of a change it would be. But it would be a more thorough method of obfuscating known malware links without having to hide large sections of page history. I think it would be a good idea if instead of removing the links they could point to some kind of warning page instead, so that users are warned what they are. If we just leave a plain URL without a link then someone's going to copy and paste it into their address bar. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:32, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, that's probably a better approach. One concern with either of these approaches might be performance. A typical edit might add one or two links to be checked against the blacklist, and the check only needs to be done once, at page save. But this would mean checking possibly hundreds of links, every time the page is parsed. It might be better to make this an option only for certain links, e.g. with a checkbox at Special:BlockedExternalDomains. Or even a separate "bad link list", similar to MediaWiki:Bad image list. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 19:13, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- FWIW, I opened a security ticket on this. I'll be happy to add anybody with a phab account and a legitimate need for the details, but the gist is that this particular URL isn't in any of the malware databases the WMF uses, so whatever process we had in place probably wouldn't have caught it.
- It might be useful to have some periodic background process which found every external link on the wiki (perhaps via an off-line database query or the XML dumps) and examined each one. But I don't know how you would determine if it was malware or not, and I suspect it would be a prohibitively expensive process. RoySmith (talk) 20:27, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Can you add me, please? Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 20:35, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 21:19, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Can you add me, please? Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 20:35, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, that's probably a better approach. One concern with either of these approaches might be performance. A typical edit might add one or two links to be checked against the blacklist, and the check only needs to be done once, at page save. But this would mean checking possibly hundreds of links, every time the page is parsed. It might be better to make this an option only for certain links, e.g. with a checkbox at Special:BlockedExternalDomains. Or even a separate "bad link list", similar to MediaWiki:Bad image list. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 19:13, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- This seems like it would be a good approach, though I also don't know how big of a change it would be. But it would be a more thorough method of obfuscating known malware links without having to hide large sections of page history. I think it would be a good idea if instead of removing the links they could point to some kind of warning page instead, so that users are warned what they are. If we just leave a plain URL without a link then someone's going to copy and paste it into their address bar. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:32, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- I don't know how big a software change it would be, but I wonder how many people would be upset if links that are currently on the WP:SBL become unclickable. That is, readers just a see a bare URL in the text, and have to copy-paste it to the address bar. This time it was only 64 revisions. But what happens if some source that's been used in United States since the very beginning is hijacked and starts delivering malware? Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 20:20, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed on both counts. For the record while it might be five years of history it was only 64 revisions, which on the whole isn't that "big" of an issue (in either sense of the word). Primefac (talk) 19:04, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'm in way, way over my head, but wouldn't adding this site to the blacklist prevent people from clicking thru to the malware site? I think maybe it would even prevent you from saving a version of the page with the link in it? Then you could restore the history. Floquenbeam (talk) 20:17, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- No, it only prevents saving. It's still possible to accidentally click on the link when viewing the old revision. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 20:23, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, OK, thanks. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:29, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- No, it only prevents saving. It's still possible to accidentally click on the link when viewing the old revision. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 20:23, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- One possibility is to export the revisions to a file, modify that link, and then re-import. Of course this is a misrepresentation of what the past version were, but could disable the link and preserve others changes. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:58, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think that should ever be done, for any reason. If there's a diff saying that you did X, you did X, no questions asked. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 22:23, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- I think we should be more willing to do this instead of revdelling large amounts of content as collateral damage. Perhaps add a change tag to make clear the diff is munged. And in this case there's a way of doing this without misrepresenting what anyone did: re-import all of the revisions as never having had the link entirely, leaving the revdelled edit as is. Then the history shows that someone added something that had to be revdelled, and then correctly shows exactly what each later editor did. * Pppery * it has begun... 04:14, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- That sounds frightening. Even if I could get my head around the ethics and/or legal implications of rewriting history, this has the potential for all sorts of automated tools to not know about the change tag and mis-attribute something. "You can't see this" is better than "I'll show you the wrong thing and pretend it's correct". RoySmith (talk) 13:44, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- Apparently I'm, as usual, a minority-of-one position, but there's definitely nothing legally wrong with this (the exact same people are attributed - although the current situation is legally fine as is per WP:Attribution does not require blame if anything rewriting history is better legally because it does provide blame). I don't see what's ethically wrong about rebasing people's edits - we do the same thing with git commits all the time and the concept is not fundamentally different. And the point of this is that the picture presented by said rebasing is not fundamentally incorrect. * Pppery * it has begun... 15:24, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- Hmm, that sounds better, but the modified revision still shouldn't appear in original user's contributions. It's too easy for people to make a quick judgement, and not notice a tag or whatever. Instead, maybe attribute the diff to the person who modified it, and credit the original user in the summary. This is roughly how we deal with edits disallowed by the edit filter, e.g. Special:Diff/1219443324. This would require a software change, however. The
importuploadright, AFAIK, currently gives absolute power to the uploader, and I'm not willing to trust many more users with it. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 19:59, 24 May 2024 (UTC)- It's not absolute power, per se, in that every use of the tool is logged so it will be clear if someone starts using it to do stuff they shouldn't. Unlike actual sysadmins who truly do have absolute power. And I would say that proposal is an ugly hack, as is EFFP-helper (edits made using the script should ideally be attributed to the user whose edit was blocked if they apply unchanged). For EFPP-helper there's no way around that, but here there is and we may as well embrace it. Absolutely nobody seems to agree with me, though, as is often the case. * Pppery * it has begun... 00:08, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Re:
every use of the tool is logged so it will be clear if someone starts using it to do stuff they shouldn't. Unlike actual sysadmins who truly do have absolute power
, almost everything an admin does is logged. Want to know what admin stuff I've done, just check my logs. I believe the only thing I can do as an admin which isn't logged is view deleted revisions (and, to be honest, I think that's a bug that should be fixed). RoySmith (talk) 00:58, 25 May 2024 (UTC)- "Sysadmin" means something different from on-wiki admin. Yes the terminology is kind of muddled, which is why I included a link. * Pppery * it has begun... 02:01, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- I think anything ops (or anyone else with shell access) does would normally get logged as well, just not anywhere publicly accessible for the complete set of logs, since that would probably contain sensitive information. (Those logs would show uses of
viewdeletedas well). Fairly standard practice these days even sudoers get their activity chucked into a log they don't have rw access to. As a (Non-administrator comment), I think I'd agree that limited rebasing is fine, especially if trying to make the history as accurate as possible. Insert an edit removing the introduction earlier and revdel so that people can still see a removal maybe. Alpha3031 (t • c) 13:28, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- I think anything ops (or anyone else with shell access) does would normally get logged as well, just not anywhere publicly accessible for the complete set of logs, since that would probably contain sensitive information. (Those logs would show uses of
- "Sysadmin" means something different from on-wiki admin. Yes the terminology is kind of muddled, which is why I included a link. * Pppery * it has begun... 02:01, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Re:
- It's not absolute power, per se, in that every use of the tool is logged so it will be clear if someone starts using it to do stuff they shouldn't. Unlike actual sysadmins who truly do have absolute power. And I would say that proposal is an ugly hack, as is EFFP-helper (edits made using the script should ideally be attributed to the user whose edit was blocked if they apply unchanged). For EFPP-helper there's no way around that, but here there is and we may as well embrace it. Absolutely nobody seems to agree with me, though, as is often the case. * Pppery * it has begun... 00:08, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- That sounds frightening. Even if I could get my head around the ethics and/or legal implications of rewriting history, this has the potential for all sorts of automated tools to not know about the change tag and mis-attribute something. "You can't see this" is better than "I'll show you the wrong thing and pretend it's correct". RoySmith (talk) 13:44, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- +1 to not rewriting history. –Novem Linguae (talk) 16:28, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- I think we should be more willing to do this instead of revdelling large amounts of content as collateral damage. Perhaps add a change tag to make clear the diff is munged. And in this case there's a way of doing this without misrepresenting what anyone did: re-import all of the revisions as never having had the link entirely, leaving the revdelled edit as is. Then the history shows that someone added something that had to be revdelled, and then correctly shows exactly what each later editor did. * Pppery * it has begun... 04:14, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think that should ever be done, for any reason. If there's a diff saying that you did X, you did X, no questions asked. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 22:23, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Hm, there's conflict between what the guideline WP:ELOFFICIAL recommends for hijacked/malware spreading official links, which is just hiding them until they are fixed, and what the policy WP:RD3 apparently recommends. Though I'm aware that the link in question was a translator link, and not an official link, so there was no reason not to remove it. – 2804:F14:80B7:8201:C4DC:E500:5610:A60F (talk) 23:37, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
Hubbi, frubbends. Looks like a good revdel to me. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:44, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
Titus Gold: Appeal to conclude topic ban edit
Titus Gold (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I'm just making a request to conclude the topic ban I previously received on Wales related topics. Alternatively other options could include limiting the topic ban to specific pages or a specific timeline and criteria to conclude the topic ban; although these would be far less desirable.
I fully acknowledge previous editing mistakes including during the topic ban and aim to avoid these in future.
Thank you for your time. Titus Gold (talk) 13:32, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- Titus Gold: I'd advise you to provide links to the discussions/events that led up to your tban, discuss what was problematic with your actions at the time, and explain how you will avoid doing similar stuff. Folk will be a lot more likely to look on your request in a positive light if you don't make them dig through your contributions history for themselves in order to get to a position from which they can consider it. Girth Summit (blether) 13:50, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- Here is the link to the conclusion of the topic ban Any perceived issues are mentioned here.
- In terms of the future, some basic things I will aim to do include:
- - I'll ensure to go to discussion pages immediately if any edits are reverted.
- - I will aim to provide multiple viewpoints where applicable when editing topics.
- - I will aim to give an accurate representation of sources used when using them in Wiki articles.
- - Avoid issues previously mentioned in the TBAN discussion including ensuring a good practice of discussion before any potentially controversial page moves.
- - As good practice, I'll generally cite reliable sources.(I have generally done this consistently for a long while.)
- - Be ready to listen to the views of others to come to a consensus.
- Please let me know if anything else is desired, thanks. Titus Gold (talk) 14:10, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- Since the tban, I had raised concerns of their edits on other Wikipedias relating to Wales so concerns are still present. Note Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Wales/Archive 2024#Mass implementation of Welsh place-names on other Wikipedias (leading to a discussion at Wikidata). They have made similar edits on other Celtic/separatist countries following the tban, so they're still interested these contentious political topics. Only stating what has happened so far. DankJae 14:34, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- I had largely forgotten about this, thanks for the link. I think it's important to mention that this was 6 months ago and I think only one page name edited around 4 months where I also provided concluding reasoning at the bottom of the page. This followed an announcement of official minor place names by Eryri National Park.
- In future, I've learnt to start discussions for any major page moves. Thanks Titus Gold (talk) 14:51, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- Since the tban, I had raised concerns of their edits on other Wikipedias relating to Wales so concerns are still present. Note Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Wales/Archive 2024#Mass implementation of Welsh place-names on other Wikipedias (leading to a discussion at Wikidata). They have made similar edits on other Celtic/separatist countries following the tban, so they're still interested these contentious political topics. Only stating what has happened so far. DankJae 14:34, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- After reading the discussion that led to the topic-ban, I scanned Titus Gold's contributions. Although WP:TBAN states
Unless clearly and unambiguously specified otherwise, a topic ban covers all pages (not only articles) broadly related to the topic
, Titus Gold has repeatedly made edits related to Wales since then (talk pages, templates, categories, wikiproject. Samples:[4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15]) Was the topic ban amended at some point to only apply to articles? Schazjmd (talk) 14:52, 23 May 2024 (UTC)- (edit conflict)Apology for banging the diff/contribution history drum again, but I would suggest including diffs above noting where you have taken such actions on other topics, eg. managing viewpoints on topics where they may clash. That you are going through Wikidata changing "British boxer" to "Welsh boxer" in French[16], and editing cebuano Wikipedia to change English to Welsh[17], is not comforting in regards to potential actions here. CMD (talk) 14:53, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
changing "British boxer" to "Welsh boxer" in French
- except that the edit did not respect French capitalisation rules. I put it back. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 21:31, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Apology for banging the diff/contribution history drum again, but I would suggest including diffs above noting where you have taken such actions on other topics, eg. managing viewpoints on topics where they may clash. That you are going through Wikidata changing "British boxer" to "Welsh boxer" in French[16], and editing cebuano Wikipedia to change English to Welsh[17], is not comforting in regards to potential actions here. CMD (talk) 14:53, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Schazjmd: The original close states:
As written, the topic ban applies only in mainspace, but, again, disruption elsewhere will probably result in a swift expansion of the restriction.
DanCherek (talk) 14:56, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
Oppose for now. TG opened this thread 12 minutes after posting this to a thread they opened earlier today on their talk page. The thread has continued on their talk page with posts by TG and others, but with TG not mentioning that they have this thread at AN. That post on their talk page in reply to me was very typical of how TG ended up with the TBAN: civil but either disingenuous or missing the point. Then 12 minutes later they opened this appeal. That little exchange looks harmless/minor by itself, but, with TG's tremendous rate of editing, the volume, speed and relentlessness of their MO starts to overwhelm a topic area. That's one of the reasons the TBAN became necessary. That's even before looking at his editing more broadly. DeCausa (talk) 17:50, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
Oppose after reviewing contributions. Titus Gold has continued to place material related to Wales in mainspace, for example:
- They added Welsh rebellions against English rule and Welsh independence to the See also sections of Irish War of Independence,[18] List of Irish uprisings[19] and Wars of Scottish Independence[20] (that one also got a link to Glyndŵr rebellion).
- They created the {{Celtic nationalism}} navbox in which Welsh nationalist organisations and thematic articles related to Welsh nationalism feature heavily, and added that to about 20 articles. Those articles include Celtic League[21], Pan-Celticism[22] and Celtic union[23], all articles which feature Wales as a major Celtic nation. (They also added the navbox to a number of Welsh articles but they self-reverted those).
- They added text about proposals specifically including Wales to Celtic union.[24]
- Their changes at Wikidata have at least the potential to appear in our articles (I'm no expert); these involve changing Wikidata's English-language entry for placenames from English to Welsh (e.g. Lake Bala to Llyn Tegid[25]).
Such edits seem to not so much test the boundaries of "broadly construed" as to creatively circumvent the ban. They're not easy to detect - most watchlists wouldn't reveal such strategy, and we can't look to TG for transparency. DeCausa's already described their behaviour today in asking editors to outline conditions for TG's return to Welsh topics but staying silent about this thread. It might be possible to review TG's talkpage for other tban issues - hopefully resolved ones - but they delete without archiving, as is their right. When they observe their mainspace tban by requesting edits on article talk pages instead, they don't say why they have to work that way.[26][27][28][29] Again that is their right, but altogether the issues raised at the ANI discussion last year of uncollaborative POV promotion remain. NebY (talk) 19:22, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
Oppose This appeal has several statements about what will happen in the future. Past and bitter experience suggests that these promises should be viewed with a more jaundiced gaze. Much more significantly, there are no statements acknowledging the issues of the past and the unsewerving Celtic nationalistic POV. There are no promises to give careful thought to the contents of an edit before it is published - only when an editor reverts will such consideration be offered. No, sorry, but this is far from good enough . I have wasted too much time in this arena to have to waste yet more on a tendentious editor. Velella Velella Talk 19:38, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
Oppose for now - When we had the discussion last year I promised I would be the first to support a lifting of the topic ban if TG could demonstrate collaborative editing that would give confidence the issues were resolved. I meant that promise, and I would like to support this. The ban is not meant to be permanent. But we don't have much evidence on English Wikipedia, and as described above, what we do have still raises concerns about the POV pushing and such like. Where we have a lot more evidence is on Welsh Wikipedia, where TG has created many articles and edited freely on articles edited by few others. Now, on the plus side, TG's enthusiasm for Wales and all things Welsh has led to a considerable expansion of articles on the Welsh site. The site is managed seperately from English Wikipedia, and TG's edits there are fully within the rules, and I expect the additional effort is welcome. My concern, however, is that the edits being made on that site suggest that the POV issue has not gone away. For instance, TG created this article on the Welsh Penal Laws [30] and is the only writer of that article. It is based on the one we have [31]. Except the Welsh version deliberately follows the version that TG tried here, but that was amended to something more historical. It is particularly instructive that the Welsh article begins Set o gyfreithiau gormesol ac apartheid...
And the word apartheid is used in that article 7 times. This word was discussed at length here[32]. I won't relitigate that discussion, but what is disappointing is that in creating equivalent articles on Welsh Wikipedia, TG has chosen to go with their preferred version, despite knowing that there were POV concerns raised about those versions on English Wikipedia. That is not the only article this has happened on. One other example being [33]. Neutrality is a core Wikipedia value. One of the five pillars. I am sorry, TG, but I do not see evidence of a commitment to neutrality, and so, for now, I do not believe the topic ban should be lifted. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 22:06, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- I appreciate the comments. Here are specific responses:
- @DeCausa I was trying to be transparent by starting the discussion on my talk page. Some editors had suggested I should not have even started a discussion on my talk page but brought it straight to this page. I was trying to be prompt in responding to that suggestion and I suppose I can't please everyone. DankJae had already posted the link here but I've since posted it again there to make sure everyone can see.
- @NebY I acknowledge the edits mentioned by NebY. In hindsight, it would've been easier just to avoid all mention of Wales rather than continue to edit articles and non-mainspace areas.
- @Velella I acknowledge that many contributions have been made to Celtic nationalism-related pages, but these have been constructive, including views of unionists like Jeffrey Donaldson etc. and just poll updates regardless of higher or lower support for whatever movement. (There is some conflation here with POV vs just general editing on Celtic nation-related pages.) I acknowledge however that I should have been more strict in avoiding Wales related edits; I acknowledge that.
- @SirfurboyI appreciate efforts for comparisons and I have promptly made edits in response to your comments. Perhaps it it is not relevant to discuss Welsh language Wici, but I have made changes based on your coments nonetheless. Although various comparisons with apartheid were made by 4 different sources I have now reduced the mentions down to 1 only in response to your comment. I have also split the Welsh dragon page to a Celtic Britons symbol page of text less strictly associated with the "red dragon". I hope this pleases you.
- Since it now looks unlikely that a topic ban is lifted; I am now going to continue to stay away from any mention of Wales on English, and more strictly so. I think any further discussion might be best focused on criteria for future topic ban lifting. Thanks Titus Gold (talk) 22:54, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'm neutral. I feel talking like this helps solve the problem. Most of the time errors can be amended, like a computer system, it simply needs an operating system update. Titus has been punished, variably based on good faith edits stemming for his love for working and his patronymic feeling about his home country Wales. The ban can be punishing, I'm sure almost torturous. If this was the case of repeated vandalism, or essentially random stupid edits, then a ban completely makes sense. But it's not. The original topics raised were over zealous emotional edits. And since, he might have found a loophole in approaching the Celtic connection, and different languages. However, from a neutral's point of view, these talks should serve as an education for Titus, and let bygones be bygones. Most of the people involved in his TBAN are not neutral, and it seems a bit of a witch hunt if you ask me. Cltjames (talk) 01:12, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
Oppose for now I think TG needs to show some evidence of cooperative editing in other areas and of being patient - this appeal, while discussion was ongoing on their user talk page, is symptomatic of TG's impatience in editing which was a major part of the problem that led to the ban. Llwyld (talk) 08:42, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
Oppose - The appeal contains no mention of the fundamental problem with TG’s editing, their strong nationalist POV. That is the crux of the issue. Without any mention of this, let alone an acknowledgement of editors’ legitimate concerns about it, and a commitment to address it, I cannot see there is any evidence to suggest TG’s approach will change. As for their “assurances” regarding consultation in future, I share the almost universal scepticism. We have had such assurances many times before. They have not been honoured. Moreover, during the period of their ban, they have undertaken mass-edits on a wide number of related wiki-sites, changing text to reflect their POV. Did they consult before they did so? No, they established their “facts on the ground” and then promised to consult in future. Which is exactly the “assurance” they are offering now. KJP1 (talk) 10:33, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think this has been addressed;
- Since it now looks unlikely that a topic ban is lifted; I am now going to continue to stay away from any mention of Wales on English Wikipedia, and more strictly so. I think any further discussion might be best focused on criteria for future topic ban lifting. Could some kind of criteria be outlined please?
- Thanks Titus Gold (talk) 10:59, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- From the number and detail of opposes, in my view it's quite clear that other editors don't want to prolong the issue by discussion of criteria for future topic ban lifting. Tony Holkham (Talk) 11:24, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- I don't know any standard criteria (please prove if wrong), but as this tban is based on community support, you kinda have to win over the community. Having evidence to show you have collaborated on English Wikipedia elsewhere on as much contentious topics/scenarios can be used as evidence you've addressed the issues brought here. Merely promising you'll learn is not enough (
I will aim to do
), and you ideally should show you have learned. In this appeal, you've just promised, as like many discussions I've had in the past, that doesn't always last. Understand that you have a very eager interest in Wales, as do I, so it will be hard to focus elsewhere. - While you are free to do whatever on other Wikipedias (as long as they're not questioned there) your edits there, particularly Wicipedia as it is more connected to Wales, it will serve as a glimpse into what your edits here may look like, you're both the same editor here and there. Although of course, Wicipedia and others have different standards then here. DankJae 11:37, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- I don't know any standard criteria (please prove if wrong), but as this tban is based on community support, you kinda have to win over the community. Having evidence to show you have collaborated on English Wikipedia elsewhere on as much contentious topics/scenarios can be used as evidence you've addressed the issues brought here. Merely promising you'll learn is not enough (
- From the number and detail of opposes, in my view it's quite clear that other editors don't want to prolong the issue by discussion of criteria for future topic ban lifting. Tony Holkham (Talk) 11:24, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
Comment As TG has now blanked their talk page I think it's worth preserving here, for reference, the parallel thread to this in its entirety: "Potential for lifting topic ban" DeCausa (talk) 11:04, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
Oppose - per above blanking and the wordage this issue is generating daily which, in my view, is in itself disruptive. Tony Holkham (Talk) 11:14, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
Weak oppose for now, although do so reluctantly. I didn’t participate in the original ANI, hoping for alternatives, but accepting their tban. However since the tban I haven’t seen any overall improvement in their editing. Following the mass-renames in ~30 Wikipedias (click on a non-English Wiki and their contributions is almost entirely on changing to Welsh place-names), as well as mass-removing English place-names in Wales at Wikidata, only showed the continued POV edits (assuming due to the scale and speed of edits, they're not likely fluent in ~30 languages, if so you deserve recognition, so it is likely a Welsh name push rather than sourced reviews in line with each wiki's rules). Plus even when criticised, they just stopped rather than corrected and learned. Sharing concerns with Sirfurboy concerning cy.articles, here they largely just moved to other Celtic countries here, for example creating Scottish versions of articles they made on Wales or separatist articles, so nothing different in their editing. As mentioned on my response to criteria, I suggest Titus pick an entirely unrelated topic to Wales and unpolitical topic, that they personally have no POV towards and gain experience and evidence there. Although, I am personally partly open to some background contribution they could make, as there is a lot on Wales to do. But won’t push it if everyone else wishes to end this discussion. On the one hand, I miss some of the articles they've made on Wales, but I do not have confidence in their editing. I hope for the day you are allowed back, but I am less convinced that, that day is today. DankJae 12:31, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Titus Gold: Could you talk us through how your edits to the +30 other Wikipedias referenced above are consistent with ending/reducing your TBAN? How does this, this, this and this give us confidence that you have adopted a more measured and less-POV driven approach to editing Welsh topics? DeCausa (talk) 13:42, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- I've taken all on board. Thanks for the contributions. Titus Gold (talk) 13:48, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- Really? What exactly have you taken on board? DeCausa (talk) 22:59, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Titus Gold: As this thread will be relevant to, and will be referenced in, any future appeal you will make, could you spell out exactly what you have taken on board from it. Your understanding of what you need to change and, then, how successful subsequently you are in making those changes will be highly relevant. DeCausa (talk) 22:11, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- Ok.
- "In terms of the future, some basic things I will aim to do include:
- - I'll ensure to go to discussion pages immediately if any edits are reverted.
- - I will aim to provide multiple viewpoints where applicable when editing topics.
- - I will aim to give an accurate representation of sources used when using them in Wiki articles.
- - Avoid issues previously mentioned in the TBAN discussion including ensuring a good practice of discussion before any potentially controversial page moves.
- - As good practice, I'll generally cite reliable sources.(I have generally done this consistently for a long while.)
- - Be ready to listen to the views of others to come to a consensus."
- from above in addition to:
- Starting discussions before any page moves or wikidata label changes. (I have very recently made some description edits which I think were reasonable, but would obviously not e.g edit-war if reverted).
- I'll only edit mainspace pages related to Wales on the Welsh language Wikipedia until a discussion concludes that my TBAN here can be concluded.
- Generally speaking, starting discussions or immediately starting a discussion following a revert of an edit it seems is a good way to go in response to many comments here.
- Is that ok, anything I've missed? Titus Gold (talk) 22:58, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Titus Gold: As this thread will be relevant to, and will be referenced in, any future appeal you will make, could you spell out exactly what you have taken on board from it. Your understanding of what you need to change and, then, how successful subsequently you are in making those changes will be highly relevant. DeCausa (talk) 22:11, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- Really? What exactly have you taken on board? DeCausa (talk) 22:59, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- I've taken all on board. Thanks for the contributions. Titus Gold (talk) 13:48, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
Comment - I'd recommend that you volunteer to stay away from the general topic-in-question for six months, if your t-ban is lifted. GoodDay (talk) 23:05, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
Eden Golan and WP:ARBPIA edit
There is some question on the talk page if this should be generally covered by ARBPIA. There has been some controversy that brings is pretty close to broadly construed, but I wanted to get wider input from the community. Thanks. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:45, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- My 2c: Aspects of her biography relating, eg, to Russia-Ukraine war (such as her family moving because of the war) would be covered by RUSUKR, and aspects relating to the I/P conflict (such as what she has said publicly about the conflict), would similarly be covered by ARBPIA. But I don't think the entire article/topic/person is covered by either one. As the article sits now, it seems there is one line about RUSUKR and nothing about ARBPIA. I don't think the RfC about whether she is "Russian-Israeli" or "Israeli" is covered by either one. But future expansions to the article might be covered. Levivich (talk) 17:18, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- I guess the song they sang for Eurovision could be within ARBPIA territory broadly construed, if you squint a bit. Maybe it's worth a
{{ArbCom Arab-Israeli enforcement|relatedcontent=yes}}template, despite the article templates not having much of an observable effect on the behavior of non-EC editors, as far as I can tell. Sean.hoyland (talk) 17:30, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment)I would say yes at the moment, since half of the career section is about her Eurovision performance, and the song she sang in the contest should be covered. The lede in the article on the song is mostly about the October 7 attack and how the song was rewritten because Eurovision officials thought the original version was too much of a political message about the war. It's always possible to revisit when she releases more material and the career section expands. Egsan Bacon (talk) 17:46, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- IMO the entirety of her 2024 Eurovision involvement could reasonably be said to be broadly constructed covered by ARBPIA. However the Israeli/Russian-Israeli thing wouldn't be and so it's still fine for non EC editors to participate in discussion etc. Nil Einne (talk) 18:19, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
SPI backlog edit
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
More admin and checkusers should take a look at the increasing backlog of WP:SPI. It keeps growing these days. Ratnahastin (talk) 05:47, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- 197 of the 401 'active' cases are closed, almost half. The biggest shortage, once again, is clerks. – 2804:F14:8085:6201:6014:787:F7A8:B566 (talk) 21:59, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
Venezuelan politics case closed edit
The arbitration case Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Venezuelan politics has now closed and the final decision is viewable at the case page. The following remedies have been enacted:
- WMrapids (talk · contribs) is indefinitely banned from Wikipedia. This ban may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter.
- WMrapids (talk · contribs) is topic banned from Venezuelan politics, broadly construed. This restriction may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter.
- NoonIcarus (talk · contribs) and WMrapids (talk · contribs) are prohibited from interacting with or commenting on each other anywhere on Wikipedia, subject to the ordinary exceptions. This restriction may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter.
For the Arbitration Committee, Dreamy Jazz talk to me | my contributions 12:06, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
Remove AFD tag edit
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
AFD tag removed twice by the creator. Please attention this also. Claggy (talk) 02:54, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) Well... wishing harm on someone like in Special:Diff/1225692156 is probably clearly beyond what's allowed by WP:CIV. Alpha3031 (t • c) 03:11, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
RfC closure review request at Talk:Israel#RfC:_Apartheid_in_Lead edit
- Talk:Israel (talk|edit|history|logs|links|cache|watch) (RfC closure in question) (Discussion with closer)
Closer: JDiala (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Notified: User_talk:JDiala#Notice_of_noticeboard_discussion_2
Reasoning: The closure was made by the same user who initiated the RfC and !voted in it. Per Wikipedia:Closing_discussions#Closure_procedure the closure should be done by an uninvolved editor.
Non-participant edit
- Comment Three editors opposed, five supported as proposed, and one supported an alternative; I don't think this is clear enough for an involved editor to close - and as a general rule, if anyone objects to an involved close then it probably isn't as uncontroversial as the closer believes. BilledMammal (talk) 12:12, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse 1 editor opposed, 2 said Bad RFC and six supported. I commented that I would rather wait but had I !voted, I would have supported. The Bad RFC comments should have been addressed in the close. But the outcome was anyway clearcut. Selfstudier (talk) 12:29, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- Commenting that you would rather wait makes you involved FWIW. Feel free to remove this response if you move your comment to the other section. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 01:57, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment This does not look like it should have been closed by an involved editor, especially an involved editor "inclined to keep the original wording proposed" (their own wording). It is very odd that the close reads "Since no reliable sources have been presented to substantiate that the inclusion of the phrase "amounts to" corresponds to a substantive distinction", given zero sources were presented in the RfC until a week after the RfC opened, when two sources were included in the comments which both used "amounts to". A number of sources were later included in a comment almost a month after the RfC opened, but that comment does not seem to comment on this wording issue either way, meaning the only sources presented both use "amounts to". In addition to the in appropriate opening mentioned above, "I think it's time for us to have this discussion" suggests there was not a discussion about creating this RfC prior, which may have helped shape a better opening. CMD (talk) 13:19, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think this is the right place to discuss the RfC itself. If it's indeed so uncontroversial, the closure should be overturned and then an uninvolved editor would re-close it and no one would argue with that.
- Also, per WP:RFC an RfC should "include a brief, neutral statement of or question about the issue". In this case it was anything but, and it makes the initiator particularly unsuitable for closing the discussion. Alaexis¿question? 19:28, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn and re-close I don't think it's really in that good of a form to close just about anything that you yourself started, if for no other reason than avoiding any appearance of impropriety. Would it hurt that much to have an uninvolved editor re-close this? No opinion as to the merits of the closure, though I'd say the calls of "bad RFC" need an address as to their merits. EggRoll97 (talk) 20:12, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- The toughest thing about this isn't the involved close (though it's baffling that anyone would think doing so is a good idea in such a contentious topic area), but the poor turnout. It looks like this is a frequent proposal on the page, and it usually draws heavy participation. For this subject, I'd expect high turnout. For example, this formal RfC from a year ago drew 49 participants. But here there were only a handful of !votes. If you look at the discussion, however, you see that there were several participants who did not boldtext !vote, including at least one who explicitly opposed, a couple who argued to wait for an ICJ ruling, and a couple who wanted to discuss alternative wording. IMO when you see shocking low turnout with a few people agreeing with the initiator, a few others saying it's a bad RfC, and several in the discussion section saying things to the effect of "let's step back a sec", it's probably a bad RfC. So as long as we're not merely counting boldtext votes and actually looking at the discussion and its context, I'd probably just say vacate, don't re-close, and start a new discussion to find wording options. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 01:48, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- If editors didn't want this outcome, all they needed to do was !vote. Not doing so suggests they don't care that much (my position, in fact), not that its a bad RFC. Selfstudier (talk) 10:20, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn Putting aside the number and content of votes/RfC premise/etc, I'd think it'd be fairly obvious to not have involved editors (especially the opener themselves) closing RfCs in such a contentious topic area (especially given the current kerfuffle at WP:AE), but apparently not. Concur with EggRoll. The Kip (contribs) 01:59, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn as an insufficiently advertised RfC with an involved close. A subject this contentious should be widely publicized to get uninvolved input and then posted at WP:Closure requests. Right now, most of the participants are the usual PIA editors who, to put it generously, have a history of always voting in a way that benefits their "side" in the conflict. The discussion section also indicates that some participants may have been using OR to determine content by trying to define "race" and "apartheid" and then apply their own conclusions about those definitions. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:14, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn and throw out the RfC. It seems clear that this was a poorly attended RfC. Perhaps that was because a previous RfC was closed just 5 months back [34]? That might explain why this seems like a very sparsely attended RfC given the nature of the question. The closer should be trouted for even thinking it was appropriate to close their own, RfC in a clearly contentious topic area. Springee (talk) 02:28, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- Six months, actually (it was closed on December 1st). Six months is a long time, and substantive developments have taken place in the intervening time period including credible allegations (ICC, ICJ) of genocide and crimes against humanity by the state in question. More than enough to warrant revisiting the issue. JDiala (talk) 02:56, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- This is really emphasizing why you shouldn't have been the one to close this discussion; you are too involved to neutrally assess questions of whether your own RfC was appropriate. I strongly encourage you to recognize that doing so was inappropriate and to withdraw it. BilledMammal (talk) 02:59, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- Six months, actually (it was closed on December 1st). Six months is a long time, and substantive developments have taken place in the intervening time period including credible allegations (ICC, ICJ) of genocide and crimes against humanity by the state in question. More than enough to warrant revisiting the issue. JDiala (talk) 02:56, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- Do you disagree with the premise that significant international ongoing legal proceedings by reputable international courts in recent months potentially warrants revisiting questions of including international crimes against humanity in the lead? JDiala (talk) 03:13, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- I personally don't, and I'm not the intended responder here, but the question of whether it was worth revisiting by opening a new RfC (what you're addressing in this comment) and the question of whether it was appropriate for you to subsequently close said RfC (what this review is addressing) are two separate items. Let's not try to change the topic. The Kip (contribs) 04:09, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- The issue at hand in this particular discussion is Springee's claim that re-opening the RfC closed six months ago was inappropriate. JDiala (talk) 14:37, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- Tbh, the principal issue is you as opener, also closing and consensus is against you on that one, unfortunately. I think you are right that the policy should stipulate that as being a no-no and save future trouble. Selfstudier (talk) 14:47, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- The issue at hand in this particular discussion is Springee's claim that re-opening the RfC closed six months ago was inappropriate. JDiala (talk) 14:37, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- I personally don't, and I'm not the intended responder here, but the question of whether it was worth revisiting by opening a new RfC (what you're addressing in this comment) and the question of whether it was appropriate for you to subsequently close said RfC (what this review is addressing) are two separate items. Let's not try to change the topic. The Kip (contribs) 04:09, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- Do you disagree with the premise that significant international ongoing legal proceedings by reputable international courts in recent months potentially warrants revisiting questions of including international crimes against humanity in the lead? JDiala (talk) 03:13, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn from a reading of the RfC, the editor in question appears to have suitably summarised the community's consensus at that point. However, as in involved editor and the editor who opened the RfC I would argue their closing is quite inappropriate. Additionally at the very minimum, as a contentious topic, I think this should have been advertised in some other forum. For example, I see no attempt to engage editors from WP:WikiProject Israel, WP:WikiProject Palestine or elsewhere. I would be interested to know if any editor in the thread attempted to engage interested editors outside of the article's talk page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adam Black (talk • contribs) 05:03, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn for a re-closure by an uninvolved editor. Certainly the opener of an RFC would be one of the worst people to judge a bad RFC argument. starship.paint (RUN) 12:27, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn Especially with a relatively small number of participants in a fraught topic it is not appropriate for the closer to be a person who opened the RfC and who subsequently !voted in it. Concur with Starship paint that the RfC should be closed by a non-involved admin although I suggest some re-listing would be good to develop an opportunity for a more clear consensus to emerge. Simonm223 (talk) 12:31, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn and re-close (this should done at the same time by an admin) - while everyone agrees that the RfC initiator cannot close it, this should not be used as an excuse to overturn the unanimous result of an RfC that has been open for five weeks. M.Bitton (talk) 14:59, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
Participant edit
- Comment I am the closer. It seemed like there were five yes votes, two Bad RfC votes and one alternative suggestion. The alternative was effectively a yes vote but with a slight disagreement on the precise wording (they wanted to include the words "amounts to") but which agreed in principle. Among the two Bad RfC votes, there were just procedural complaints that the RfC was started too quickly as a past similar one concluded a few months earlier. These votes failed to cite any policy to justify their position. The previous RfC pertained to human rights language generically, but did not specifically discuss the issue of apartheid which was the point of my RfC. Therefore, I felt the Bad RfC complaint entirely meritless. The current RfC was also stagnant for a while. In light of these reasons, I decided to close despite being an involved editor per the guidelines in WP:RFCEND. I thought the WP:CONSENSUS undeniable in this case.
- I am admittedly a less experienced editor than many here, still with fewer than 2,000 edits. It is possible that despite the exceptions outlined in WP:RFCEND there is still a cultural taboo of closing your own RfC which I was not aware of. My judgement was made on the basis of the written policy. JDiala (talk) 12:41, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
I felt the Bad RfC complaint entirely meritless
An editor who opened an RfC is not well placed to determine if the RfC is improper - and looking at the statement, at a minimum it violated WP:RFCNEUTRAL, as the statement argued for the change. BilledMammal (talk) 12:49, 26 May 2024 (UTC)- The 2 Bad RFC voters did not raise the neutrality of the RFC wording, and neither did anyone else so that's irrelevant. Selfstudier (talk) 12:55, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- WP:RFCEND clearly outlines cases where involved editors can close RfCs. JDiala (talk) 13:07, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- Regarding
the statement argued for the change
, the OP's mistake was not to separate the 3rd and 4th sentences of the statement and put them in the "survey" section, where they belonged. That's not a big deal, and either editor who claimed "bad RFC" could have (should have) specifically asked the OP to do that. When I was an inexperienced editor, I made a similar mistake as an OP for an RFC, and another editor kindly fixed it for me. I endorse the closure. NightHeron (talk) 13:27, 26 May 2024 (UTC) - (Please note: I am uninvolved; this thread started in the "uninvolved" section.) NightHeron (talk) 19:00, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment I commented in the RFC and opposed the original wording, so the outcome is not unanimous. If editors really insist on the original wording, could we at least change it to active voice instead of passive voice? Instead of “It has been accused of committing war crimes and crimes against humanity, including the crime of apartheid, against the Palestinian people from human rights organizations and United Nations officials.” change it to “Human rights organizations and the United Nations accuse Israel of committing war crimes and crimes against humanity, including the crime of apartheid, against the Palestinian people.”? I didn’t vote in the voting section and wanted to wait for the ICJ ruling because I don’t really understand the situation and wanted to follow the court ruling and still have questions. Amnesty International released a report about the apartheid in 2022… does that mean the situation wasn’t apartheid before but then amounted to or became apartheid later? West Bank is governed separately by the Palestinian Authority and Israel, so aren’t the respective governing regions supposed to be separate? Aren’t there currently internationally illegal settlements with a growing minority of violent extremist Israeli settlers as well as a number of violent Palestinians in the West Bank? So aren’t the two populations separated also because they are violent towards each other and not simply due to Israelis trying to exert a system of racial superiority? Wanted to hear both Israeli and Palestinian sides and the ICJ ruling of the situation rather than human rights organizations whose jobs are to focus on the human rights abuses rather than address these other questions.Wafflefrites (talk) 03:09, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- You did not vote. My impression was that you were just opining, not formally getting involved in the vote. An Option C was provided for alternatives. Waiting for the ICJ outcome would be one such alternate. Not clear if the ICJ decision would happen within the lifecycle of a single RfC though. JDiala (talk) 03:17, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment A Editors here are bringing up things like the RfC's turnout and the "advertising" of it. The policy basis for taking these aspects into consideration is unclear. We are not told that we are responsible for marketing these things nor that there is a large minimum threshold of voters. JDiala (talk) 03:13, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- WP:CONLEVEL covers this. An unadvertised RFC with fewer than a quarter of the respondents of an RFC six months ago isn't going to supercede the much larger discussion. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 03:22, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- My reading of WP:CONLEVEL is that local consensus (e.g., on an article) can't override consensus on a larger scale (e.g., for a WP-level policy decision). Not interpreting it as meaning two RfCs on the same issue done at different times require the later RfC to have >= as many participants as the prior one to override. JDiala (talk) 03:32, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- Unadvertised? Aren't all RFCs advertised in the same way? And this one was on the main Israel page, pretty good advertisement if you ask me. Selfstudier (talk) 10:24, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- RFCs can be advertised beyond the template at appropriate noticeboards and wikiprojects. The amount of notification varies significantly between RFCs. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:42, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment B Reading through the comments here, and how viscerally incensed many editors seem to be at this (is "trouted" even a word @Springee:...), it is clear that many consider it highly inappropriate for involved editors to close RfCs in all semi-contentious areas, even those with seemingly indisputable outcomes by a vote tally. This is understandable in some ways. Neutrality concerns are legitimate. But I'd strongly suggest communicating this in WP:RFCEND so new editors are less confused. JDiala (talk) 03:13, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- One of the bad RFC votes, requesting a better RfC and/or overturning the close. For the long list of reasons listed above, a new close (and better: a new RfC) is more appropriate than this. While the question of when the best time for the new RFC would be (now vs. after the ICJ decides) are valid concerns, this 5 person “consensus” is IMO insufficient for this case based on the arguments made above. FortunateSons (talk) 07:38, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
Discussion edit
1RR appeal by Marcelus (restored) edit
I would like to ask the community to remove or reduce the 1RR restriction imposed on me. I received 0RR on March 7, 2023 ([35]), this restriction was reduced to 1RR on July 3, 2023 ([36]), for appreciating my trouble-free editing history. On September 27, however, after my 2nd revert on the Povilas Plechavičius article, I received 0RR again ([37]). It was once again reduced to 1RR on November 29, 2023 ([38]).
I received 0RR for waging the editing wars. Since then, I have changed my style of working and communicating with other editors. I avoid making reverts, in complicated situations I initiate discussion. Except for this one case on Povilas Plechavičius, I have not had any problems related to reverts. My revert to Povilas Plechavičius was due to my misinterpretation of the revert (I restored the deleted content with the addition of sources, responding to the objections of the user who removed the content under the pretext of a lack of sources), and not out of bad faith.
After another five months of trouble-free editing, I would ask that the sanction be removed or reduced.
This is the second attempt to process this issue, the previous one (Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive360#1RR appeal by Marcelus (restored)) did not attract the attention of any admin, and was also spammed by users who do not like me.Marcelus (talk) 18:24, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Fixed your discussion link. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:21, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- In what way, exactly, is this 1RR a problem? I basically act like I'm under 1RR most of the time myself. If I revert somebody and they revert back, I take it up on the talk page. That's all 1RR requires you to do. So, if I can manage to work productively with that kind of self-imposed restriction, what do you want to be doing but are unable to because the same restriction has been externally imposed? RoySmith (talk) 18:16, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with RoySmith. After many years of editing, I now voluntarily try very hard to restrict myself to 1RR. If I have made an edit, and someone reverts, unless there is a violation of policy involved, I let it go. I've expressed my opinion of the edit, and if no one else thinks I'm right, I have other things to do. Donald Albury 19:38, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
unless there is a violation of policy involved
is a pretty big "unless." Levivich (talk) 14:28, 21 May 2024 (UTC)- @RoySmith, @Donald Albury: I also try not to revert, and plan to continue doing so. It's just uncomfortable to be under 1RR which acts blindly, even good will and policy-based revert can result with a complete ban for me. I think I'm proven myself to be a trustworthy editor who avoids conflicts, and don't think there should be any special restrictions imposed on me. Marcelus (talk) 12:28, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
I also personally try to stick to 1RR. But restrictions are not free: they take community time to monitor. If you (generic you) feel that editors in general would be better off only reverting once, WT:EW is the place to have that discussion—not by restricting individual editors one-by-one. There are places in Wikipedia where being "unrestricted" matters, such eligibility for a WP:Clean start or participating in certain (voluntary) admin recall procedures. And finally, wanting to be unrestricted is a perfectly valid reason to appeal a sanction even if you don't want to engage in the behavior your are restricted from. There is a big difference between being forced (not) to do X and choosing (not) to do X.
That being said, I am not familiar with this editor's case, so I am not going to leave a !vote on the sanction appeal itself. But I oppose using any reasoning not specific to this editor's case to deny the appeal (such as
1RR is a good thing in general
,it is not a massive burden
, etc.). HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 14:08, 21 May 2024 (UTC)- @HouseBlaster you make a valid point. But I think on any request to have a sanction lifted, the onus is on the sanctionee to explain why it will be to the benefit of the project to do so. We're all WP:HERE to build an encyclopedia. If the sanction is impairing their ability to further that goal, then lifting it makes sense. All I'm asking is that they explain how it is an imposition, and how lifting it will help them further our joint goal. RoySmith (talk) 14:19, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- While it might be good that many editors abide by a 1RR guideline themselves, the difference here is that living under a mandatory 1RR restriction means that an editor can be brought to ANI or an admin's attention if mistakes or errors happen as described by the editor. I think that is what is being appealed here, not the ability to do multiple reversions but the burden of feeling like any misstep could mean further restrictions or a return to a noticeboard that I'm positive no editor likes being summoned to. Liz Read! Talk! 15:13, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
A case of archiving edit
It seems like a discussion section at AN, Are these "/current_consensus" pages even real?, was prematurely archived diff. I'm bringing this up because me an some others responded to an invitation to comment here and I was waiting to see what administrators would say to these comments. Thanks. Bob K31416 (talk) 15:46, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
quero criar minha conta edit
conta 2804:58B0:153:8C00:B052:268F:B45B:18F1 (talk) 19:24, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
Por favor não contribua com textos em português na Wikipedia em inglês. Entretanto, suas contribuições serão muito bem-vindas na Wikipédia em português.
Please do not contribute text in Portuguese to English Wikipedia. Your contributions are more than welcome at the Portuguese Wikipedia. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 19:31, 27 May 2024 (UTC)