Due to the COVID-19 pandemic, this user asks you to take precautions:

1. Maintain social distancing by starting new posts in new sections, to avoid contaminating other users.

2. Follow the one-way system by putting new posts at the bottom.

3. Sign your comments to facilitate contact tracing.

Sunflower sky backdrop.jpg

It's summer!

Note: When emailing me, please also post a {{You've got mail}} template to this page.
I check my Wikipedia email account infrequently.

Wise words given to a blocked editor: This absolute adherence to the idea that your interpretation of the rules is paramount
and everyone else's input is merely an obstacle to overcome is an accurate summary of how you ended up in this position.

Basalisk inspect damageberate 4 August 2013
Well said!Liz Read! Talk!
No matter how cute you are, expect no quarter in the cruel world of Wikipedia.

While Wikipedia's written policies and guidelines should be taken seriously, they can be misused.
Do not follow an overly strict interpretation of the letter of policy without consideration for the principles of policies.
If the rules truly prevent you from improving the encyclopedia, ignore them.
Disagreements are resolved through consensus-based discussion, not by tightly sticking to rules and procedures.
Furthermore, policies and guidelines themselves may be changed to reflect evolving consensus. (WP:NOT)

Recommended reading for editors who are upset RIGHT NOW!:
Tips for the angry new user - Gamaliel
Staying cool when the editing gets hot!

If you came here just to insult me, I will delete your comments without a reply.
And if I wasn't involved, personal attacks clearly warrant a block.

POTD categoriesEdit

We're creating a terrible feedback loop here: Categories are getting removed for not existing yet, e.g. [1], and then getting deleted for not having something in them. This is a Wikipedia process that eventually should have an entry for every single day of 2023. It's important categories exist for them. I'm going to try to sort out this mess. Please hold on. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.9% of all FPs 01:21, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Adam Cuerden,
  • First, let me apologize for overwhelming your talk page with notices. I should have left a personal note discussing this instead of individual deletion notices.
  • Second, empty categories sit for a week, they are not deleted immediately unless there are other issues like they were created by a sockpuppet or there is BLP-violating content on it. So, there is always some time to sort things out with empty categories. It often happens that categories are only temporarily empty and in those cases, we just remove the tag before the 7 days are up.
  • Finally, there is something you can do with categories like these, where you want to create categories that will be periodically empty. It's not mentioned much because it should not be misused in order to retain empty categories that should not be kept. But for maintenance categories like these, put {{emptycat}} tag on the page and there will be a notice not to delete the category even if it is empty and, more importantly for folks like me, these categories will stop showing up on the nightly Wikipedia:Database reports/Empty categories list which is how we are informed about empty categories.
Please do not remove CSD tags from any pages you have created, that shouldn't be done but there are other ways we can address this. If you just remove the tag without placing an empty category tag on the page, it'll just show up on tomorrow's list of "Empty categories" and we'll go through all this again which I'm sure you don't want. I hope this helps. Liz Read! Talk! 01:31, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
Well, they should all be unempty now. I've just gone through and sorted everything by creating the month archives for each category. Sorry about that. It was kind of an awkward situation, and I just started trying to maintain POTD. I have a suspicion there should be an easy way to make these pages, but I instead did search and replaces on the extant day listings while chanting "30 days hath September..." Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.9% of all FPs 01:39, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
And I've added {{#ifexpr:{{PAGESINCATEGORY:{{BASENAME}}}} <1|{{empty cat}}}} to the header that gets autoadded to the category pages, and set them up to... well, frankly, to the point of the most distant POTD that was already set up, so that categories won't mistakenly get deleted by accident. At least not for a while. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.9% of all FPs 01:55, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Bassano VaccariniEdit

I know some Wiki politics- destruction, vandalizing.Xx236 (talk) 06:30, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Xx236,
I'm not sure what your comment is all about. If you would like Draft:Bassano Vaccarini restored, you can ask me or go to WP:REFUND. Liz Read! Talk! 06:34, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Books & Bytes – Issue 50Edit

  The Wikipedia Library

Books & Bytes
Issue 50, March – April 2022

  • New library partner - SPIE
  • 1Lib1Ref May 2022 underway

Read the full newsletter

Sent by MediaWiki message delivery on behalf of The Wikipedia Library team --12:52, 1 June 2022 (UTC) (UTC)

Deletion of Romanian Brazilians articleEdit

Hello, Liz. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

Hello! I would like to know why the Romanian Brazilians article got deleted, it had nothing to do with the previously deleted article and my article used sources presented in other articles such as the Romania-Brazil relations. the page citing the recreation of a page that was deleted per a deletion discussion speedy criterion when the content was different enough for it to not apply. Also take a look at the pages about European diaspora in Brazil, basically only the Romanian one is missing even though having a substantial diaspora of more than 40k people. Thank you for your time if you ever see this :)

Okay, I'll look into this. Please sign all of your talk page posts with 4 tildes ("~~~~") so I'll know who is talking to me. Thank you. Liz Read! Talk! 19:41, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
Hello, Liz. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.
Thanks for your reply, so can i remake the same page if it's ok?
Vladdy Daddy Silly (talk) 23:34, 2 June 2022 (UTC)Vladdy Daddy Sillly
  • I think a good solution would be restoring the page under draft or userspace so that this editor is able to further work on it if necessary. Super Ψ Dro 13:05, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
Hello, Vladdy Daddy Silly,
I thought the two articles were similar and the new version didn't overcome the objections in the AFD that caused the article to be deleted. But I'm willing to restore the page to Draft space. Read over the AFD and when you think the article is in better shape, submit it to Articles for Creation for review. If you move it directly back into main space, it will just be tagged for speedy deletion CSD G4 again but if it meets AFC approval, it is less likely to be deleted. Does that sound okay to you? Liz Read! Talk! 03:13, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
Yes, sure. Give me the link of the Draft page if you have it because i can't find it, thanks a lot. Vladdy Daddy Silly (talk) 16:23, 4 June 2022 (UTC)Vladdy Daddy Silly
Hello, Liz. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.
sorry i forgot to mail notify you about the draft page, i'm ok with it of course, i'll edit it more and add sources that i found. Vladdy Daddy Silly (talk) 15:44, 5 June 2022 (UTC)


Hi Liz. You blocked two users who created Draft:Julian Lawrence Hall (Julian Lawrence Hall and Md ruhin ahmed) for socking. Now there is a 3rd, Arzubayer03 - possibly another sock? --Drm310 🍁 (talk) 19:29, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Drm310,
Thanks for the notification. I'm going to be on and off Wikipedia for the next couple of hours but I'll look into this. Socks are nothing if not persistent. But some, it seems, eventually get tired of all of the games and move on. Liz Read! Talk! 19:43, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
Another one has cropped up at User:Olviha/sandbox. I've opened a case at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Julian Lawrence Hall requesting CU. --Drm310 🍁 (talk) 16:14, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – June 2022Edit

News and updates for administrators from the past month (May 2022).

  Guideline and policy news

  Technical news

  • Administrators using the mobile web interface can now access Special:Block directly from user pages. (T307341)
  • The IP Info feature has been deployed to all wikis as a Beta Feature. Any autoconfirmed user may enable the feature using the "IP info" checkbox under Preferences → Beta features. Autoconfirmed users will be able to access basic information about an IP address that includes the country and connection method. Those with advanced privileges (admin, bureaucrat, checkuser) will have access to extra information that includes the Internet Service Provider and more specific location.


Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 17:55, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm SorryEdit

Hello Liz,

I am very sorry for mindlessly tagging drafts for speedy deletion and MFD. I'll try not do it again and actually look in the page history to see if it will be eligible for G13. I have learned my lesson and please forgive me. I will also not submit anymore speedy deletions or MFDs on drafts unless it is really problematic. THE Pizzaplayer!TALK TO MEE!! contribs 18:46, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Pizzaplayer219,
I'm sorry if I sounded harsh. It was at the end of a long day and I think I was exasperated. Once you know about the CSD G13 status, you don't need to be told twice. If you look at User:SDZeroBot/G13 soon, you'll see that we have hundreds of drafts expiring every day that are evaluated so most times, an MFD isn't warranted unless there are severe problems with the content that can't be dealt with by speedy deletion. Any way, thank you for your contributions to the project! Liz Read! Talk! 00:43, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Refund request 2Edit

Draft:Boeing F-15EX Eagle II. It's being discussed at Talk:McDonnell_Douglas F-15E Strike Eagle#F-15EX split, and having it visible would be useful to the discussion. Thanks. BilCat (talk) 21:18, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, BilCat,
  Done Liz Read! Talk! 21:20, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
That was fast! Thanks. Btw, what does "ME" in the edit summary, "ME after draft restoration", mean? BilCat (talk) 21:22, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
Hello, BilCat,
I guess that is an abbreviation that only I use but it stands for "minor edit". After a draft has been restored, unless you make an edit to the page, it becomes immediately eligible for CSD G13 deletion again. The page restoration doesn't affect the page history which will show that the last non-bot edit to the page was over 6 months ago. So, to prevent the page from getting tagged for speedy deletion again, I, and good folks at WP:REFUND, typically make a minor edit to the page like adding a space or adding a line between AFC comments. It also resets the 6 month clock for drafts. Liz Read! Talk! 21:27, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
Ah, OK. We should have a decision on whether or not to move it to mainspace in a few weeks. I may work on it in the meantime. It's not a notability question but an editorial one of whether or not the F-15EX content is better covered in its own article, or should remain at McDonnell Douglas F-15E Strike Eagle. As a Page Mover, I can move it to mainspace myself if we decide to do that. Thanks again. BilCat (talk) 21:39, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Draft:Gehad HamdyEdit

Hi Liz. I think the only reason the IP isn't blocked is because the CU can't actually confirm. Any other suggestions? It's clearly someone from Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Salem_Imam/Archive#02_June_2022 logged out given the verbatim creation. Thoughts on SALTing? I asked the same at the SPI, but no issue if it's also used as sock catcher. Star Mississippi 02:41, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Hey, Star Mississippi,
I have this "thing" about CSD G5s because, in my experience, many editors tag pages for speedy deletion based on suspicions before there are any conclusions at an SPI or before an SPI is even filed. So, I have this, "I have to see that the page creator is a confirmed sockpuppet, I have to know who the sockmaster is, the page creator has to have been blocked for sockpuppetry not for another reason and there can't be any substantial contributions from other editors" G5 rationale which, I admit, some folks have found to be rigid. I've been challenged on this before but I just ask them to wait until the SPI confirms sockpuppetry (sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't). I had gotten in hot water years ago about G5s that were deleted that shouldn't have been deleted but never for removing a CSD tag that I thought was placed prematurely. And it also can be difficult because sometimes, the checkusers will not identify a sockmaster, they just know that the account is a multiple account. I've asked them to try and be more specific about this but I've been brushed off before so it must have something to do with privacy or their certainty about the results.
You could try CSD G4, due to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gehad Hamdy, but some admins believe G4 doesn't apply to Draft space, others believe it does while other admins decide this on a case-by-case basis. I (and others) have brought up this contradiction at WT:CSD without any firm consensus arising. The references, regarding the organization Speak Up look decent, less so for Gehad Hamdy but she did win this Women SME Leaders Awards 2022 which looks notable that probably happened after the AFD discussion. I guess I have mixed feelings about this draft because even though sockpuppets were involved, it looks like exactly the kind of article Wikipedia should have, about a recognized and effective community activist in a developing country. It's unfortunate that sockpuppetry is involved. But I want to add that this "feeling" didn't affect my decision to untag this draft, it was my understanding of how CSD G5 is to be interpreted.
You could always wait until the draft goes stale and goes CSD G13. And I have seen some admins stretch CSD G11 all out of shape to apply to almost any kind of article but I don't think that is a good practice. That can happen with CSD G7 but G7 has more built-in limitations to it than G11 does. My only other suggestion is to retag it and see if another admin comes to a different conclusion than I did. That action is discouraged but I've seen it happen before. These are the only possibilities that occur to me right now. Liz Read! Talk! 18:47, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
It would be helpful if you would leave the G5 CSDs to another admin to review if your requirements are so stringent. There are many socking cases that don't have an SPI and drafts are articles are routinely deleted as CSD G5 without an SPI. As a checkuser there are many reasons why a specific master is not identified, especially when dealing with IPs. If you're not comfortable with deleting on that basis, is there any harm in just letting another admin review the request? Asking someone to retag the CSDs as you've done here, and below at "tagging a test page" (which I also think most admins would have deleted as a valid CSD), is less than ideal as the majority of admins won't CSD a page if another admin has declined it. You do a ton of heavy lifting with speedy deletions (thank you!!!), is there any harm in leaving a few for another admin to review if you know you're out of step with common practice?-- Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 19:06, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
It's not G4 eligible as it's substantively different, but the same one the sock farm has been copy/pasting so there's no doubt that this is the same editor. @TheSandDoctor has blocked per the SPI so hopefully concerns are resolved? If not, I hope they get bored for six months or realize that this isn't going to result in an article for what I presume is their client. Someone can definitely write an article SpeakUp and discuss Hamdy within it, but that's not what this group is interested in doing, sadly. Thanks! Star Mississippi 12:54, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
@Star Mississippi and Ponyo: Liz hasn't responded to this thread, so I gather they are busy. I've gone ahead and G5'd since it now meets the criteria, as discussed and per my blocking of the IPs. If there is any objection to this, please discuss and ping me. --TheSandDoctor Talk 15:54, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Speedy Deletion - Mayor of FrankfurtEdit

Hello, I see that you have declined my page move. Just to clarify, Frankfurt and Frankfurt am Main are the same place. Wikipedia generally uses just "Frankfurt" to refer to "Frankfurt am Main", as seen on the Frankfurt page. The Mayor of Frankfurt-am-Main article refers to the city as "Frankfurt am Main" in the lede but elsewhere in the article it is refered to as "Frankfurt". Thus I don't think that moving the page would make the title not agree with the content. But also this is my first time moving a page so maybe I'm doing it wrong. Medarduss (talk) 07:43, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Medarduss,
You could very well be right here, Medarduss. It looks like the page used to be titled List of mayors of Frankfurt until this edit in 2018 when it was changed from a list to an article with its current title. It's just that this is an established article that has existed since 2005 and so page moves and retitling has to be done with a bit more care than if it was a page about a new film or video game. Typically, although this didn't happen in 2018, for a longstanding article, there is a proposal and discussion on the article talk page first. After that is concluded, or if there is little response to a proposal after a week or so, then an editor can take a bold action and either move an article or request a page move. But first, the article is rewritten so that, at least in the lede paragraph, the new title is how the article subject is identified. This doesn't have to involve a lot of editing. But an article shouldn't be titled "Mayor of Frankfurt" if that is not how the mayor is identified in the first sentence of the article and any infobox. If there are several titles that can be used, then they can all be mentioned there but "Mayor of Frankfurt" should be the primary one if that is the new article title.
But I suggest you start a talk page discussion first and see if other page watchers agree with you. You might be surprised at how controversial some page moves can be so it's best to get a feeling if there is general agreement before moving an article. Oh, and you really didn't do anything wrong by making the request, I probably should have not just declined the page move but should have also gone to your talk page and explained all this, too. Good luck! Liz Read! Talk! 19:13, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

A CSD G11Edit

Hi Liz. I had nominated Draft:Abdolrahman Sarraei for G11 deletion, which has already been deleted multiple number of times. Also Abdolrahman Sarraei was deleted multiple number of times, and then recreated again and again. There is also this SPI case regarding the matter. Considering all these, why did you remove my CSD tag? Could you please explain me I had gone wrong somewhere. At least, I can tell you, all the time, I had nominated this for CSD, always it got deleted. It was I who first discovered this article and put a CSD tag on it. Were those deletions wrong? What do you say? Itcouldbepossible Talk 15:22, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Itcouldbepossible,
First, I think you need to consider all of the pages that you tag for speedy deletion where I agree with you and not just focus on the handful where I come to a different conclusion. But you ask a valid question here. Editors and admins can disagree on whether or not a tagging rationale is valid, I work with Proposed deletions and articles get de-PRODed every day when another editor disagrees with a tagging. You look at a day's AFD discussions and probably at least half of the deletion nominations are contested by other editors who believe an article should be kept. Regarding page deletions, good, thoughtful editors can disagree.
As for this particular draft, I didn't investigate the page history, I just looked at the current page content and I didn't think it was overly promotional, at least not by my standards for CSD G11. I made my judgment based on the content of the draft and we usually allow more leeway in the Draft world than in the project main space. Now, if I had looked more carefully at the page history and seen how many of the latest edits were done by User:Sarraei Team, then I probably would have seen what you had seen and deleted the page. You are clearly more aware of the history of the article subject than I was at the time I was evaluating the page. But it's interesting that the admin who did delete the page after I untagged it (see Draft:Abdolrahman Sarraei) did so for CSD G5 reasons and he removed the CSD G11 deletion rationale so it wasn't deleted for being advertising but because of sockpuppetry activity.
If I made a mistake here it's that I shouldn't have simply reverted your edit, I should have brought up the subject on your talk page. But, unfortunately, sometimes admins get busy, the CSD categories are full of pages that need to be reviewed and taken care of and having discussions like this can take up time that folks would rather spend on other tasks. I do think that you have been doing quite a bit of deletion tagging that I have had questions about but if a situation like this comes up again, I'll come to your talk page instead of simply reverting your edit. Does this help explain things a bit better? Liz Read! Talk! 19:34, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
First, I think you need to consider all of the pages that you tag for speedy deletion where I agree with you and not just focus on the handful where I come to a different conclusion. Sorry, but I didn't want to mean that. It is not about disagreeing and agreeing. You have deleted many pages that I had CSDed. I was quite amazed when you removed the CSD tag from that promotional article which has already been deleted multiple number of times, and the editors blocked as sockpuppets. I thought this might be a mistake from Liz's side, so I thought of bringing this up to you.
As for this particular draft, I didn't investigate the page history, I just looked at the current page content and I didn't think it was overly promotional, at least not by my standards for CSD G11. Well that must be up to you, but to me it looked like promotional, so I CSDed it. And I got this strong, when I saw other 2 administrators had agreed with me. So the third time, I, you can say, alomost blindly tagged the page for CSD. But I check my CSD log daily to see which articles are still kept even after I CSDed them. Like that I improve my knowledge on deletion situations. I see when administrator agree with me and when they don't. That day when I saw my CSD log, I found out that the page was still 'blue linked'. I saw the page history and found out that you had removed the tag.
Now, if I had looked more carefully at the page history and seen how many of the latest edits were done by Sarraei Team, then I probably would have seen what you had seen and deleted the page. Yes, but a draft promotional to that extent should be deleted (though you didn't think it was promotional). There are many instances by which we know that the draft or article is actually promotional. The user KIIFF is creating an article in a 'promotional tone about the KIIFF film festival itself. And then this Abdolrahman, who as far as I remember is associated with this film festival in some way. So overall, as per what we see, it was promotional, according to me.
Now, if I had looked more carefully at the page history and seen how many of the latest edits were done by User:Sarraei Team, then I probably would have seen what you had seen and deleted the page. Probably, but administrators like you, who are involved with so many things on this wiki, are way busy to go and inspect the page histories of the articles that turn up in the category. But, if you won't block me, then I would just suggest you something. You can install this script, to find past deletions and AFDs. This is a really helpful script for new page reviewers and also administrators who perform deletions. This Writ Keeper man, oh what a user! This script helps you to find out if the article or draft has been deleted in the past, or if there was any AFD of the article. Would you please use that script from now on to see if the article or draft has been deleted previously? And when you see the page has been deleted previously, then you can have a look at the page history also (to detect anomalies like this one). In this way you won't have to check the page history always. Now please please don't mind this suggestion from a new and unexperienced user like me. I am no one to suggest to users or rather administrators like you, who has been working for the community for so many years, and has so many peoples support. Please take this as a friendly suggestion from a newbie.
But it's interesting that the admin who did delete the page after I untagged it (see Draft:Abdolrahman Sarraei) did so for CSD G5 reasons and he removed the CSD G11 deletion rationale so it wasn't deleted for being advertising but because of sockpuppetry activity. Well, I am not sure (you can check it once more, I don't remember it, for I have been tagging tens of articles for CSD everyday, and it is hard to recall what the article or draft looked like, or how many CSD tags were there, unless there are special problems with the article, like obvious vandalism, creation by LTAs, or promotional articles that are being repeatedly created using different article naming schemes), but I myself had tagged the draft first for CSD G11, and then included a G5 too, since it would also be applicable. But the deletion administrator took the latter CSD criteria and deleted it accordingly. It has happened quite a few number of times. I nominate an article for deletion using multiple CSD criteria (obviously those which can be applied), and sometimes, the deletion admin chooses the best out of it. So maybe this is what had happened this time.
If I made a mistake here it's that I shouldn't have simply reverted your edit, I should have brought up the subject on your talk page. But, unfortunately, sometimes admins get busy, the CSD categories are full of pages that need to be reviewed and taken care of and having discussions like this can take up time that folks would rather spend on other tasks. I understand that. That is why I thought of bringing this up to you as nicely my English let me to do. Alas, I hate to say this again and again, but being an Indian, and English being my 3rd language (not applicable for every Indian), I am struggling to learn to phrase sentences correctly, so that they don't mean bad to English speaking people like you. And I even ran into a problem once. You can see my talk page archive to know how my problematic English made by good intention look bizarre.
I do think that you have been doing quite a bit of deletion tagging that I have had questions about but if a situation like this comes up again, I'll come to your talk page instead of simply reverting your edit. I would be pleased if you do that. But no need to take this as a burden. You are free to decline my CSDs. Just be careful about the past deletion histories. We want Wikipedia to be a clean place, isn't it? If you want to contact me, then you are free to, my talk page is always open to everyone.
Does this help explain things a bit better? Well it explains a lot how good and very forbearing you are. Thanks for putting up such a nice and kind explanation. Many administrator have forgot to behave in a civil manner. At times, I understand, due to the huge stress, administrators look like harsh, but actually, in the end it looks like you people are good. That is why you are an admin and not me.  
PS: This is not to make you go unhappy, but just a note. This draft was CSDed by me, but you reverted the edit saying that "it could become potentially notable", but I re-tagged it, and then it was deleted by Jimfbleak. I should have brought that up to you, but didn't know that. Always thought that you people develop a 'grudge' suddenly out of nowhere and then start acting in your own way. But then someone(better not to bring the person into this), changed my idea about administrators completely. Then I understood the facts, and I brought this Abdolrahaman Sarrei deletion related problem up to you.
I apologize for this wall of text, but I couldn't help myself other than write this much. I as a distant speaker of English have to spend a lot of words to convey something. Thanks again for your extreme patience in handling this matter, even though you have dozens of cases like this. Wikipedia needs administrators like you. Thanks for your service here, and I also want to follow you footsteps, and reach a place so great as you. Sincerest regards, Itcouldbepossible Talk 16:13, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Tagging a test pageEdit

Why was the CSD tag removed on Draft:My Test Draft? It was clearly a test page and the creator of the article probably did not intend to ever move it to the mainspace or even submit it. (talk) 16:40, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Because it was a Draft page where editors are allowed to test things out. Re-tag it if you want, I won't untag it again. That was just my opinion. Liz Read! Talk! 17:35, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

William HelfandEdit

Hello! I haven't heard from you in sometime. Next week, I plan on recreating the page on William Helfand. There will be similar content, but of course, nothing will be a direct copy. I apologize for the past copy, which was not meant to be a final draft. I removed that directly copied part shortly after I was notified about it, but the page was still deleted. William Helfand deserves a Wikipedia page and I believe I am in a good position to create one for him. Thank you for your help and support! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cczollo (talkcontribs) 19:56, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Category:Danish–Romanian translatorsEdit

This category did have any entry. Now, it does. Thank you for signalizing it. :-))) When I created it, I had in mind the translator, writer and poet Barbu Nemțeanu. Something happened then and I was unable to add the category to the aforementioned article. Therefore, I have just done it, some minutes ago. Thank you, again. Yours, Wars (talk) 09:32, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

In the still of the night (Whitesnake song)‎Edit

Hello Liz, my apologizes, as soon as I saw your edit summary, it dawned on me, one of the main reason for redirects is for search purposes. Thanks for reminding me. Cheers, - FlightTime (open channel) 02:57, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, FlightTime,
To be honest, we have a lot of, what I think, are dumb redirects. I have nominated redirects that are wordy and long to WP:RFD and editors who frequent that deletion discussion board have found value in them...long, extended titles, misspellings, phrases that you think would never be a search term, and they have decided, "Keep". So, what seems "uncontroversial" to you and me, is not to others. Also, being brought to Wikipedia:Deletion review can result in an admin hewing closely to the speedy deletion criteria. Please do not take an untagging personally as some editors are wont to do, it just meant that I saw things differently based on my experience patrolling CSD categories. Thank you. Liz Read! Talk! 03:04, 6 June 2022 (UTC)


hi liz this is musical Artist page you can search Google and check this official musical Artist dj music producer check in Spotify amazon music apple music search on Google Ali Nawaz Channa and check result — Preceding unsigned comment added by Channa Ali Nawaz (talkcontribs) 03:43, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

He's doing it againEdit

Hello, Liz. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

Smasongarrison (talk) 23:08, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Hey Liz,
Unfortunately, he's escalated. I have reached out to an additional admin @Hammersoft: who knows about Mathsci's long history of problematic behavior.
But anything here's the current mess. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch#Wheelchair_bound Smasongarrison (talk) 03:55, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Please help me stop harassment from datalounge.com users Vandalizing and now trying to have my article deletedEdit

Please help me stop harassment from datalounge.com users Who have not only posted that they’re actively trying to have my article removed that has been up for almost 10 years but the user who has just today put it up for deletion has a long history of causing problems according to his talk page. My page has also been vandalized extensively since October which is all visible in the edit history. You’ll also see where it links to postings on datalounge.com about some fanatics attempt at having my page removed all culminate in one direction, vengeance or a vendetta. My page might need some sort of polish from somebody who is editing skills understand the format but everything is properly referenced and I’ve had five top 40 billboard records, I’ve starred in the TV series, I’ve been a member of the Out 100 list I’ve won the Los Angeles drama critics Circle award I’m on TMZ‘s 10 funniest drunk celebrities. (That’s not listed on my Wikipedia obviously) and all of this is due two months of harassment from the online troll community at datalounge.com which a quick search will show you is the most vile disgusting cesspool on the Internet. Any help you can offer would be incredibly appreciated. Please forgive any weird typos I have a recovering injured right arm and hand therefore I’m relying on voice to text. Huge thanks, Jason Dottley Jasondottleyofficial (talk) 05:45, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

He would help if I told you a bit more information. My article is “Jason Dottley” and even though you can see this information on the talk page here is a link to a thread about having my article removed as a group effort https://www.datalounge.com/thread/30947120-miss-dottley-thinks-she-is-a-god-and-must-be-stopped! This user has suggested it for deletion but he also has a very bad reputation reading his talk page and he just blanked his talk page if you read what he removed it’s atrocious User:MisterWizzy also see User:AugustusBuzby who vandalized in November.
Hopefully this is enough to get you started considering all the information is available on the talk page for my article. Thank you again Jasondottleyofficial (talk) 05:55, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
Hello, Jasondottleyofficial,
Can you provide me with a link to the page you are concerned about? We don't consider articles anyone's property so the article isn't yours or mine or anyone else's, all pages, including this talk page, belong to the project. If it's been deleted, I have to see why it was deleted to know if anything can be done about it or whether the deletion was justified. If it hasn't been deleted, I need to see if there has been vandalism which you seem to think happened. Thank you. Liz Read! Talk! 06:06, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
Of course absolutely. And yes I understand the page/article doesn’t belong to anybody it’s just an adjustment to make which is easy. Here is a link to the article Jason Dottley And the vandalism has occurred in the past 6 to 9 months and you can see that in the edit history and you can see how the editors have had to revert things that they called “vandalism” like someone added the word “allegedly” in front of nearly every word in the article.
The upsetting part is this collective troll effort from datalounge.com users who are posting and trying to gather people together to help get this page deleted, as well as doing other things that are very disruptive in my life. Thanks for the help and prompt response Also the page is not deleted, that was just added today by the user I mentioned, and so far no one agrees with him. Jasondottleyofficial (talk) 06:16, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Weird new account around WP pagesEdit


Saw that you've been recently active via the Recently Active Users tool, and I know that you've been around AfD a lot, so I kind of want to ask for some help.

This concerns Jim Bobs Doo Doo, created a few hours ago. I first noticed them when they voted keep on my AfD nom; this isn't about that specific vote, but associated behavior. They didn't sign their comment, but apparently knew enough to cite WP:NEXIST, albeit incorrectly, which I find as a bit of a contradiction. Maybe they edited before via an IP, because new users who know enough to go to AfD on their third edit while not having pages nominated for AfD themselves are few and far between. Even fewer are those who know to cite policy. They've also commented on ANI, again citing policy here. All (excluding my AfD nom because of my COI) of their comments or votes go against recent consensus/contradict the user they are replying to.

I know to WP:AGF, but this fact pattern seems awfully strange to me. Do you mind recommending courses of action? Iseult Δx parlez moi 06:48, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Teahouse invitesEdit

Hi Liz. Any idea why your tool would generate the teahouse invite when he already had been? Not a major issue, just trying to figure out why it didn't detect the earlier one? I'll delete mine but leaving for the evening in case you want to trouubleshoot. Star Mississippi 02:37, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Hey, Star Mississippi,
You are very observant! I sometimes go ahead with Teahouse invites if the previous one was accompanying an AFC evaluation. I think those ones might be missed by the editor rather than a stand-alone invitation. But in the future, I'll look at the date of the AFC invite and only place them on the Talk page if the previous invite was long ago, say a year ago. Liz Read! Talk! 02:43, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
Oh that makes total sense. I don't always tick it to generate an invite, but sometimes I think it might be helpful. I may be overly optimistic in this case but we'll see. Thanks for checking so quickly. Star Mississippi 02:53, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
Liz is great at remembering Teahouse invites. Several times I've seen her follow up with it when I've forgotten. Much appreciated. ––FormalDude talk 05:48, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
I went to Wikipedia:Request a query to see if I could find out how many Teahouse invitations I've posted, using the standard template (I also invite in personal messages) and found I'd posted that message 7,142 times. I actually thought it was more! If I see an contributing editor has no User talk page, I post a Welcome and Teahouse invitation out of habit. I'm sure many of those editors never come back to Wikipedia but in case they do, there's some information they can use. I just know that if the Teahouse hadn't been there when I first started regularly editing in 2013, I would have quit the first month, I was so confused and frustrated. It's a great resource for those who know about it. Liz Read! Talk! 06:01, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
7 thousand. Wow. That's wonderfully insane. I agree about welcoming being an encouraging tool. We need all the editor help we can get. Star Mississippi 15:12, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!Edit

  Teahouse Barnstar
Thank you for your work promoting the Teahouse. ––FormalDude talk 06:35, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Özlem Sarıkaya Yurt pageEdit

Hii Mrs. Liz I am not in this language who opened the article, but you know how correct it is to delete the article with just one vote? Shouldn't there be a more participatory vote, so I ask you to bring back the article and ensure a more comprehensive voting, if not, you know?-- (talk) 09:15, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Regarding soft deletionEdit

At Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/V-Man - would you mind converting this into a redirect with a non-deleted history? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:45, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Piotrus,
I'm not sure I am fully understanding your request. I created a redirect to Fox Feature Syndicate#Fox characters. You nominated the page for deletion so I'm not sure why you would want the deleted history restored as a contested Soft Deletion. Let me know if you wanted more than a simple redirect created. Thank you. Liz Read! Talk! 19:44, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
@Liz In general, I think that in such cases soft delete means redirecting while preserving history. If the topic becomes notable one day, it can be restored then, and more importantly, if we hide the revisions, the (re)creator may not realize there is some content to work with. I'd prefer to pre-emptively save time of that future editor, even if all they get is the lead/infobox/categories/some plot summary. And it also should save the closing admins's time, too - there's no need to delete anything, just close the Afd and redirect the entry (non-admins can do this too). PS. Also, the same applies to the talk page (Which I prefer to preserve whenever possible, as an archive of some old discussions that who knows what may be relavant for). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:12, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Managed Extensibility FrameworkEdit

Liz, you deleted the article (as expected). However, there is an ongoing report on the ANI against an crosswiki LTA. Please restore the article In order to improve them, as it is my current campaign. Thanks. --Amitie 10g (talk) 17:33, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Amitie 10g,
  Done As a contested PROD, it's been restored. Liz Read! Talk! 19:40, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Newt ScamanderEdit

Thanks for declining that speedy on Newt Scamander, I've been looking at it for 3 days and hesitating to do anything with it.

You said in your edit summary though that, "This page has sat at CSD for over 3 days with no admin taking action. They obviously don't think this draft article is ready for main space." I can only speak for myself, but it wasn't so much that I didn't think the draft was ready for mainspace, as that this redirect has history from before the article was merged, and I found the instructions at Wikipedia:Requested_moves/Closing_instructions#Moving_procedures confusing, so I was leaving it for someone with more understanding of the round-robin procedure, but apparently such a person did not come by.

Anyway, at least now I don't have to see it in the speedy queue. ~ ONUnicorn(Talk|Contribs)problem solving 18:36, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, ONUnicorn,
If a page has sat for 3 or more days in a CSD category with no one taking action on it, I typically remove the tag. We don't have as many admins patrolling CSD as we used to but I assume at least a few admins see each request and if no one takes action on it after a few days, then there is some disagreement about the validity of the tagging. The only exception I make is for copyright violations and I think that is because there is some confusion among admins about the degree of copyright violation that would require deletion, rather than rewriting. At least, I see articles linger in that category for days and that's my best guess for why that might be the case.
I didn't know about the merger and page history, I should have looked more closely at that. My point of view is that to be moved from Draft space to main space, the draft should look like a main space articles, all of the AFC tags and comments need to be removed first. It should be camera-ready for readers. That is usually done in most cases but some editors request a move while the draft is still in the submission phase, before anyone has reviewed the draft. Or a page creator says that the draft has been AFC approved and needs to be moved when you can clearly see a page full of declines and maybe even a rejection. I know that some admins disagree with my position, some will delete the main space page before a draft is ready to be moved so I typically don't untag CSD G6 move request pages unless they have been sitting there for days. Liz Read! Talk! 19:54, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Good morningEdit

Good morning, ma'am! In fact, I want to change my username too. And I want my talk page to be deleted. Now, please tell me what I could do. I want to take your suggestions! Regards! --Haoreima (talk) 02:29, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Haoreima,
To change your username, just make a request at Wikipedia:Changing username. Then, after your name has been changed, request that any redirects, from your old account to your new one, are deleted. I recommend reading Wikipedia:Clean start. If you want to leave Wikipedia completely, you could request a Courtesy vanishing but that is only intended for those editors who want to leave and never come back. It is awkward if you do a courtesy vanishing and then come back to edit because then the vanishing has to be undone and you're back to your old account. And it sounded like you really wanted a new account so follow the advice on the Clean Start page. Good luck! Liz Read! Talk! 21:44, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Deletion of Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/Archive 1Edit

Hi Liz, it appears you may have accidentally deleted this page, which I think contained conversations spanning the first half decade of the Signpost (2005-2010) and is still linked from various other pages. Note also that G8, the quoted rationale, does not apply to such talk page archives. Regards, HaeB (talk) 08:52, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, HaeB,
First, thanks for recognizaing that it was an accident! There was a deletion tag on Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Archive 1 and I use Twinkle for page deletions that have been tagged for speedy deletion. When you delete an article, Template, Category or Project page, Twinkle typically deletes the talk page and any redirects to the main page which was what happened. Of course, this shouldn't occur with talk page archives so thanks for bringing it to my attention so I could fix it. Liz Read! Talk! 19:50, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
Thank you! Regards, HaeB (talk) 01:35, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Translated Arabic articlesEdit

Hello Liz,

I've only recently started monitoring Recent changes, specifically newly created pages. In the past two or three days, I've come across at least 20 problematic articles created by the same few users.

The articles are all translations of articles from the Arabic-language Wikipedia. All concerning relatively well-known books in Arabic. The contributors do not change a single thing. No translation template either. The article is machine translated, word-for-word, and the result is a badly worded, poorly referenced article that does not conform to English-language Wikipedia's guidelines on notability, referencing, and layout/style. I recognize many of these books, and I believe a large percentage of them clear the notability bar. It could be a great iniative, but this is not how it's done.

What should be done about this?

@Hanan Wadi, @Farah Afana, @Sanabagh, @Reyami.Alsalman, @Fatimah Al Ani Mooonswimmer 12:46, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Mooonswimmer,
A couple of questions. Do the editors provide attribution to the Arabic version of these articles? That's an important step with any translated article. Secondly, have you tried communicating with any of these editors, do they utilize talk pages? Something this complex, involving translated works and multiple editors is more than I usually handle as an individual administrator. If you are worried about any copyright violations, I'd go to Moneytrees as I consider them the admin most involved in the nuances of copyright. If it's a matter of editing the articles, I'd look over Wikipedia:WikiProject Arab world/Members and see if there are any members who are still active editors on Wikipedia. For example, User:Faycal.09 still is active although they focus on sports, they might know an Arabic speaker who works in the area of literature.
I'd only go to ANI if the generation of newly created articles goes into overdrive and is more than our review processes can handle, like if dozens of low quality articles are being created daily. ANI tends to be a blunt instrument and the go-to solutions there are topic bans and blocks, neither of which sounds like the correct solution to potentially productive but inexperienced editors. Let me know your thoughts about these ideas. Liz Read! Talk! 19:41, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Requesting revdelEdit

[2] per WP:RD2. Thanks. Dr.Pinsky (talk) 19:09, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Dr.Pinsky,
I typically revision delete edits that violate our rules about biographies of living people so I had to think about this as it involves a work of fiction and could be just a different understanding of the narrative. But the edits could be considered disruptive so I honored your request. Liz Read! Talk! 19:29, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

June GOCE newsletterEdit

Guild of Copy Editors June 2022 Newsletter

Hello and welcome to the June 2022 newsletter, a quarterly digest of Guild activities since April 2022. Don't forget you can unsubscribe at any time; see below.

Blitz: of the 16 editors who signed up for our April Copy Editing Blitz, 12 completed at least one copy-edit, and between them removed 21 articles from the copy-editing backlog. Barnstars awarded are here.

Drive: 27 editors signed up for our May Backlog Elimination Drive; of these, 20 copy-edited at least one article. 144 articles were copy-edited, and 88 articles from our target months August and September 2021 were removed from the backlog. Barnstars awarded are here.

Blitz: our June Copy Editing Blitz, starting at 00:01, 19 June and closing at 00:59, 25 June (UTC), will focus on articles tagged for copy edit in September and October 2021, and requests from March, April and May 2022. Barnstars awarded will be posted here.

Progress report: As of 07:12, 14 June 2022 (UTC), GOCE copyeditors have completed 209 requests since 1 January and the backlog stands at 1,404 articles.

Election news: Nominations for our half-yearly Election of Coordinators continues until 23:50 on 15 June (UTC), after which, voting will commence until 23:59, 30 June (UTC). All Wikipedians in good standing (active and not blocked, banned, or under ArbCom or community sanctions) are eligible and self-nominations are welcomed.

Thank you all again for your participation; we wouldn't be able to achieve what we have without you! Cheers from your GOCE coordinators Reidgreg, Baffle gab1978, Dhtwiki, Miniapolis and Tenryuu

To discontinue receiving GOCE newsletters, please remove your name from our mailing list.

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:39, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

AMU Henry SmallsEdit

I don't know why my page was deleted, actually, let me rephrase that. I don't know why I can't make a page about myself. I just want people to know about more about me. I'm asking you to please, undelete my article, or send me a copy of my article. I worked hard on this and it hurts to let it go. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HenrySmalls17 (talkcontribs) 23:56, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Henry,
I answered your second query, below. Liz Read! Talk! 23:02, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Contested page deleted Draft:E. L. P. EdirisingheEdit

Hi Liz, may I know why my draft was deleted when I had laid down my reason, contested it and no one had responded yet? I just received the notification that it was up for CSD. Delta fiver (talk) (UTC) 06:30, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for undeleting it. Delta fiver (talk) (UTC) 06:34, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Delta fiver,
I think the editor who tagged the page was looking for blank draft pages and your page turned up on the list. I have restored it. But to prevent it from getting tagged again, you might post some kind of content on the page to show that it is an actual draft and not a test page. We have a lot of editors who create pages and never return to edit them and I think that is what the page tagger was looking for when they were going through blank draft pages. Sorry for the mixup. Liz Read! Talk! 06:36, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
Oh I see, now worries as at all and thank you for informing me. I've just added some content, couldn't get to editing it as I'm having my finals now, but thank you again. Delta fiver (talk) (UTC) 06:40, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Deletion of Daniel Fisher (composer) articleEdit

Hello, Liz. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

Hello Liz! I would like to discuss the deletion of the Daniel Fisher (composer) article. I wrote the text to be in the "style" of an encyclopedic Wikipedia article and Copyvio detected 0% similarity so there should be no copyright infringement. This is a notable musician who will appear in Billboard. Would you be willing to let me know what I should do or rewrite to have the page reinstated? MusicWizard7 (talk) 09:02, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, MusicWizard7,
Well, according to a very experienced editor, there was content on the article taken from https://danielfishermusic.com/bio webpage. There were not many edits to this page so I think the best solution for you is to write a new article from scratch in your own words in Draft space. The main space of the project is carefully patrolled by editors who tag pages for deletion for promotional language, copyright violations, advertising, for lack of notability and other unacceptable aspects. The atmosphere in Draft space is more forgiving and we allow for imperfect articles to improve over time and become better articles. It would help if you would submit a draft for review with our Articles for Creation who will review the draft and let you know if there are any problems that might lead to deletion. But please, do not borrow any content from any sources or closely paraphrase content either (just changing a word here and there). Good luck. Liz Read! Talk! 23:01, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
There was one paraphrased paragraph, so upon the editor's concerns, I deleted it right away. What was left was fully original and written from scratch. Would you be willing to reinstate the article? MusicWizard7 (talk) 12:56, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Santadas Kathiababa's editing is important.Edit

Why are you repeatedly deleting the important edit of Santadas Kathiababa. He was one of the important saints of Hinduism. He is the leader of the Nimbarka community of Hinduism around the world and the spiritual leader of the Hare Krishna movement. This edit is important to Wikipedia. His life was discussed in various media. So please make an edit of Santadas Kathiababa on Wikipedia. Srabanta Deb (talk) 10:37, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Srabanta Deb,
I don't know why you are coming to talk to me. I have never edited Santadas Kathiababa. I have never deleted Santadas Kathiababa. I didn't comment or close either Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Santadas Kathiababa or Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Santadas Kathiababa (2nd nomination). So, I don't know what you think I'm responsible for.
I have only two suggestions. If you want an article on Santadas Kathiababa on Wikipedia, write a draft article and submit it for review to Articles for Creation. An experienced AFC reviewer can asses your draft and advise you on where you need to improve it. Read the comments on both AFDs and you can see what problems editors had with the article that was deleted. Try to address these issues in your next draft so that there is no reason to nominate it for deletion again. You can't just claim that someone is important, you have to demonstrate why they are important by citing reliable, secondary sources that state this is so.
If you want a place to complain about Wikipedia policies, then, go to the Teahouse with your questions and perhaps someone there can better explain Wikipedia policy about deletion and AFD discussions. Good luck. Liz Read! Talk! 22:51, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of songs recorded by Armaan MalikEdit

Hi! Re Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of songs recorded by Armaan Malik, I think your deletion of the article was closed too early given that the nominination relied on one single argument for deletion. Recent nominations of similar pages of songs recorded by singers (some opened on the same day) are getting wide support to be kept (this one, to name one), and this one would probably have gotten the same response had it not been deleted then.

Can you help us by restoring it or the nomination? Thank you, ShahidTalk2me 13:53, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Shahid
Well, this discussion ran for 7 days so it wasn't closed too early. But since you requested it, I'll revert my closure, restore the article and relist it for another week. Please know that even with a relist, an AFD discussion that runs over 7 days can be closed at any time, it doesn't guarantee that it will be discussed for another 7 days. But I'll let another administrator close this. Liz Read! Talk! 21:42, 15 June 2022 (UTC)


Hi can you take a look at this user https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/ . This user reverts my edits (that I provided sources) for no reason at all. S.G ReDark (talk) 15:28, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, S.G ReDark,
I've been out most of the day and it looks like admin discospinster already go to this and blocked this editor. If you believe vandalism is being done, first, post a warning notice on the editor's talk page (this is easy using Twinkle) and if they continue, report them at WP:AIV. Liz Read! Talk! 21:38, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Draft:AMU Henry SmallsEdit

I don't know why my page was deleted, actually, let me rephrase that. I don't know why I can't make a page about myself. I just want people to know about more about me. I'm asking you to please, undelete my article, or send me a copy of my article. I worked hard on this and it hurts to let it go. I don't have this anywhere else and I can't remember what I wrote. I was offline the whole time and it hurts that this would happen without me knowing. Can you please send me the data? HenrySmalls17 (talk) 18:27, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, HenrySmalls17,
You can write your autobiography but I can guarantee that it will be deleted. You need to meet Wikipedia's standards for notability to have an article. There are film & TV actors, politicians, scientists, authors, artists & performers, professional athletes, professors, musicians, CEOs, attorneys, etc., people who have a high public profile, who don't meet Wikipedia's notability requirements. Notability is something that is debated endlessly all day on Wikipedia at Articles for Deletion. Look over some of the discussions there and you can see there are lots of articles that exist on Wikipedia that are subsequently deleted because the individuals lack notability. Every day, I must delete over a dozen articles on different rappers. We get hundreds of drafts about rappers from all over the world, not just rappers in the U.S. but from all over Europe, Asia and Africa. I'm sure you are a good person, doing great work, but you must be exceptional and you must have your accomplishments verified by reliable, secondary sources to warrant an article on Wikipedia.
If you enable email on your account (set this up in your Preferences), then I can send you the content that was deleted. And please do not feel offended that you don't have an article about yourself on Wikipedia....yet. Now if you are ever discussed in the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal, Science, Billboard, Rolling Stone or any other major publication, then probably someone else will write an article about you.
I hope you stick around and do what the rest of us do, work on improving articles about subjects other than ourselves! Liz Read! Talk! 21:35, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
I just confirmed my e-mail address HenrySmalls17 (talk) 22:47, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
  Done. Sorry for the delay, HenrySmalls17. I get caught up in my work here and off-line activities. I wish you luck in your music career. Hopefully, if you have some success, you'll find an article about you on Wikipedia! Liz Read! Talk! 22:42, 16 June 2022 (UTC)


Hy, hope you are well, could you please semi protect this page [[3]], this new ip [[4]] made so many changes on it (removed sourced material, made dead links etc. in short term vandalized it) that it took me several edits to restore back to previous version and to remove all the dead links. Thank you. Theonewithreason (talk) 06:29 16.June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Theonewithreason,
I see that you reverted their primary edit and they came back on a different IP address to make minor edits today. Vandalism has a very specific meaning on Wikipedia, policy staes that it deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose, which is to create a free encyclopedia, in a variety of languages, presenting the sum of all human knowledge. While their edits might not have improved the article, I don't see repeated attempts to knowingly damage the article, it looks like they have a very specific POV that might not be neutral. It's not effective to block an editor who jumps from one IP address to another quite easily and I don't see repeated efforts to damage this article. But it's impossible to talk with an IP editor who changes addresses with every edit, otherwise I'd say start a talk page discussion.
I'm not going to protect the article today but you continue to see major edits that you believe falsify information or reflect a nationalistic POV, then come back to me or go to Wikipedia:Requests for page protection and ask for page protection. The admins who patrol RPP will want to see persistent edits that are clearly vandalism before they will issue protection and it will like be short-term, just for a day or two. Thank you for your vigilance and your efforts to keep the article accurate. Liz Read! Talk! 22:31, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
Hello @Liz thank you for noticing that the ip uses different addresses for vandalising, I did ask for page protection but still no answer, meanwhile, there is another ip who actually reverted the rest of edits that me and another editor did not manage to do before, restoring it back to the WP:stable but still it is a bit strange so many ip in few days. That is why i am asking for page protection. Theonewithreason (talk) 04:16 17.June 2022 (UTC)

Liz, did you delete my comment at Talk:Bernard Lewis bibliography#Use of table vs. list?Edit

I'm pretty sure I left a reply to 2A00:7C40:C210:221:E009:BC7A:345E:62C1's there. I understand the result of the AfD was keep, but surely that wouldn't be grounds for deleting wp:civil comments, would it? Guarapiranga  06:51, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Guarapiranga,
I looked through the page history of Talk:Bernard Lewis bibliography and don't see any comments by you on that page. I looked to see if there are any deleted comments for that page but there aren't any. Then I went through both your contributions and deleted contributions and can't see where you made any edits to that page at all, saved or deleted. I'm guessing you wrote out a response and didn't publish it. This can happen to me sometimes when I navigate out of a page to check a policy page or another article to get a reference or find a link I want to add to my comment. Since nothing had been saved, there is no way to recover whatever your comment was. I wish I could help you out and if I had accidentally deleted your words I would immediately restore them but I can't find anything. Sorry. Liz Read! Talk! 22:19, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
I'm guessing you wrote out a response and didn't publish it.
It's quite possible. I only asked you bc I saw you closed the AfD. Thanks for following it up, Liz. Guarapiranga  01:15, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
Terribly sorry, Liz, just found I had replied here, not there. Guarapiranga  02:57, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
Well, Guarapiranga, I'm glad you figured that out. Those little things ("I know I commented SOMEWHERE!") can drive you mad! It happens to me with certain points of policy I need to refer to and I know I've read the reference many times but I can't find the exact page where that content is. Liz Read! Talk! 03:04, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Deleted EdUBudgie Linux draft - no idea whyEdit

Liz - it appears you deleted th EdUBudgie Linux DRAFT page. I created this page, bookmarked it, and intended to come back to fill it in as soon as the webpage was updated. Then I received an email that this was deleted. It was a draft - my understanding was that draft pages can exist for some time - I thought that I had read something like 6 months before they were deleted. Is that incorrect? What is the timeframe then for drafts to exist before they are deleted? It has been one month. Can you please explain why this draft was deleted as it is something that I had intended to add to and do not understand why this has happened? "Deletion of old drafts Drafts that have not been edited in six months may be deleted under criterion for speedy deletion G13. Most G13 nominations for deletion are done by bots or users using Twinkle or AFCH, processes that inform the draft creator on their talk page. Pages deleted under G13 may be restored upon request at WP:REFUND (see Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion/G13)."

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Teacheradamodix (talkcontribs) 08:14, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Teacheradamodix,
I have restored Draft:EdUBudgie Linux. It was tagged for deletion as a "test page" because it had no content. Many editors create pages as test edits and never come back to them so I assume that's what the tagging editor thought. You might put some content on the page so that this mistake won't happen again. As for your question about draft, drafts are considered "stale" if it has been at least 6 months since a human being has edited them (bot edits don't count). But, as in this case, they can be deleted sooner if the page is blank. If you could just put some content on the page, hopefully relevant to the article you plan on writing, that would demonstrate to our page patrollers that someone is working on a draft on this subject, that would help. Sorry about the unexpected deletion and good luck with your article. Liz Read! Talk! 22:11, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
OK, I understand. Sorry, I freaked out for a moment there thinking that perhaps it meant that I couldn't re-open the page with that name at all and that it was gone forever etc etc etc.
I am new to this and joined specifically for this article, but I may edit others as you do in the future if this goes well.
I will add something to the page soon so that it isn't blank as you recommended. Thank you for the help and sorry for the extra efforts. Have a great weekend! Teacheradamodix (talk) 08:21, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
Teacheradamodix, you're completely justified in freaking out. We really leave drafts alone, for the most part, unless there are copyright violations or if they are promotional or advertising, until they hit that "6 months of inactivity" mark. I'd also question an admin if a draft I was working on was unexpectedly deleted. I'm glad you came to me and I hope your work turns out to be a great article once you get all of the content and refernces that you need. Liz Read! Talk! 21:19, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Racism in Myanmar (June 17)Edit

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reasons left by TipsyElephant were:  The comment the reviewer left was: Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.
TipsyElephant (talk) 13:36, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

AfC and G6Edit

Hi Liz! I hope you are doing well. I noticed you have left notes to AfC reviewers asking them to cleanup drafts to make them "mainspace ready" before requesting a redirect be deleted. However, that is not how AfC works. The cleanup does not occur until the draft is accepted and moved to mainspace. This is done essentially all in one click: cleanup (removes previous declines, AfC comments, the pending submission template, etc.), moves it, adds WikiProjects, categories, etc.). We cannot accept a draft/move it, until the redirect is deleted. Does that make sense? S0091 (talk) 21:13, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, S0091,
Thanks for the information but I don't really understand. It is only a minority of draft space page move requests that I encounter that still contain all of the AFC content on them. Most of the time, they are "clean", they look exactly like main space articles so it is no problem to move them. Why are some drafts polished and ready to be moved while others look like they haven't even been reviewed yet?
If there is still a "review in process" template at the top of the page, how do I know that the draft has been accepted? I encounter new editors all of the time that say their drafts have been AFC approved and want them moved into main space when the drafts often haven't even been reviewed yet, much less approved. Is there a way that an editor can "approve" a draft and later move it to main space? This would be very helpful.
If this is not possible, then I think the solution is just for me to leave these pages alone and not untag them. I'll let an admin who is more familiar with the AFC process to take action on them. There really should be a way that the AFC reviewer can say the draft is approved and is in process of being finalized so patrolling admins can identify an approved draft from one that hasn't been approved. But, like I said, I'll just let them be. Liz Read! Talk! 21:27, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
Without seeing examples, I cannot say why some are clean other than maybe they are not AfC submissions. There was actually a new CSD template created back in February to address your concerns (at least in part), {{db-afc-move}} which should make it clear it is a request from an AfC reviewer. However, absent that, you can check to see if they are an AfC reviewer at WP:WikiProject Articles for creation/Participants. I generally state in my CSD edit summary why I am requesting the deletion (to accept such-and-such draft), then I add an AfC comment on the draft stating I waiting for a redirect to be deleted in order to accept but not sure what other AfC reviewers do.
There is no way for an AfC reviewer accept a draft without actually moving it because that is part of the accept, unless they choose to do all the things the script does automatically manually, which is not desirable of course. Yeah, if you are not comfortable doing the deletion then probably best to skip them unless you want to go through the extra steps to verify it is an AfC reviewer request, which is also not desirable. Its one of those situation where I wish you could see what I see and you wish I could see what you see. I think we both would have an "oh yeah...makes total sense" moment for our different perspectives. S0091 (talk) 22:08, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
Okay, S0091. This is helpful, I'll look at the template. Two things occur to me. With the "clean" page moves I'm referring to, the admin is being asked to delete the redirect (it usually is a redirect) and move the draft in one click. But what you are talking about is the admin deleting the page and then the AFC reviewer doing the page move. Secondly, I can also see who is tagging the redirect page for deletion and see if it is an AFC reviewer vs. a regular editor. But, mostly, I think I'll just pass on taking action if things are unclear to me and just not tell anyone want they should or shouldn't be doing which I think was your original complaint! I'm sorry if I was offering advice to any AFC reviewers that was contradictory to the best practices you all follow. Liz Read! Talk! 22:14, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
Liz, you are a very conscientious admin and were giving correct advice based on your experience with the vast majority of situations you deal with, which I now understand from your comments. No need to apologize! Thanks for taking the time to discuss. :) S0091 (talk) 22:28, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

excessive vandalismEdit

excessive vandalism in List of most-streamed songs on Spotify Tirso Gutiérrez (talk) 22:52, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Tirso Gutiérrez,
You have made the most edits to that page in recent days (by far the most), and I don't see a lot of vandalism that has been reverted. Remember, except for a small group of protected pages, anyone can edit Wikipedia and can contribute to this article in ways that you disagree with. That's why we have talk pages, so editors can discuss changes where there is disagreement. Don't be reluctant to start a talk page discussion if you find an edit of yours reverted and you what to discuss it. Thank you. Liz Read! Talk! 22:35, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Olympian closuresEdit

Hi Liz,

Regarding your closures of those discussions as "redirect", can I ask why you closed them as "redirect" rather than "delete"? I am not seeing a consensus there for redirection - for example, at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kurt Reichenbach I say a redirect is not supported due to WP:R#DELETE #1 (three other Kurt Reichenbach's are mentioned on Wikipedia, any one of which it would be reasonable for a reader to be searching for, and the first two are probably more likely to be searched for than the Olympian - the commander of various U-Boats, the Swiss Mixed curling champion, or the singer). This argument was not addressed by the sole editor who supported redirection, while it was convincing to the other responding editor. BilledMammal (talk) 02:24, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

(talk page stalker): I think BilledMammal has a valid point here and I don't believe the closure was appropriate, especially considering the two participating editors are now subject to an arbcom case in relation to deletion discussions. I'd suggest self-reverting and relisting as it isn't a clear consensus. Bungle (talkcontribs) 08:54, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
Hello, BilledMammal & Bungle,
You make some valid points. I'll revert and relist this discussion. Liz Read! Talk! 22:18, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
  Done Liz Read! Talk! 22:29, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

DeaconShotFire unblockEdit

  There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 17:40, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Deepfriedokra,
Thanks for letting me know. I'll have to refresh my memory on this case. I'm sure glad that you are handling so many unblock requests these days, you seem to have a better BS detector than I have. Not talking about this specific case but in general. Liz Read! Talk! 22:31, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Thank youEdit

Hello Liz, I hope you are well. I just wanted to thank you for the help you gave me back in August 2020 when I set this account up but wanted to delete it. You helped me understand that whilst deleting accounts is impossible on MediaWiki, I could do stuff like delete my user page and blank my talk. In the end, I decided to stick around and now I am a pending changes reviewer, patrolling recent changes with RedWarn and hopefully soon I will be a roll backer. I have completely got to grips with the Wikipedia community and policies and I have really enjoyed contributing. I will be continuing to improve Wikipedia for a long time, it is good. Thank you again. Kind regards, Blanchey (talk) 17:05, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Deleting ‘The Spoof.com’ draft pageEdit

I received your message regarding deletion of my draft article. I have nothing to add to make the article meet publication requirements (it was my first attempt at writing a Wikipedia article.) Go ahead and delete it.

MvT (talk) 19:41, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Undeletion requestEdit

I am requesting undeletion of Negus Nurse article. No consensus reached.Capture2015 (talk) 05:34, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Capture2015,
This AFD closed as a Soft Deletion which means that the article can be restored upon request. So, I have done this. Please consider the criticisms of the article in the AFD and work on improving it. The article can easily be nominated for 2nd AFD and, in that case, there will be no second Soft Deletion. Liz Read! Talk! 05:46, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
Hi Liz. I've got a question about this just out of personal curiosity. Should {{Old prod}} or {{Old XfD multi}} be added to the talk pages of articles which are soft-deleted (like in this case) via AFD, but then are subsequently restored. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:13, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
Hello, Marchjuly,
What a good question. I think {{Old XfD multi}} would be more appropriate. Are you very adept with templates? Liz Read! Talk! 06:17, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
I don't think I'd consider myself adept, but I gave it go and added the "Old XfD multi" template to Talk:Negus Nurse. -- Marchjuly (talk) 03:24, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Fifteenth anniversary on Wikipedia!Edit

Invitation to join the Fifteen Year SocietyEdit

Dear Liz,

I'd like to extend a cordial invitation to you to join the Fifteen Year Society, an informal group for editors who've been participating in the Wikipedia project for fifteen years or more. ​

Best regards, Chris Troutman (talk) 14:10, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Follow up: undeletion requestEdit

Hello, Liz. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

Hello Liz, my reply to you above, regarding article Daniel Fisher (composer), may have gotten lost in the shuffle. When you have a moment, would you have a look at my undeletion request? Everything should be in order. MusicWizard7 (talk) 12:47, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, MusicWizard7,
Well, I asked you if you'd be willing to submit it to AFC because of previous copyright problems and you didn't answer that question. I don't want to restore a page that you'l move back to main space and it will just get deleted again for any number of reasons. Then someone comes to my talk page asking me why I restored a bad article!
I'm sorry for the delay in my reply though. Liz Read! Talk! 16:02, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
Hello Liz, Apologies that you were waiting for my answer to that question. I would prefer to avoid AFC because (after my edit) 100% of the article was written from scratch and there are no copyright issues. Thus, if you could restore the page, that would be appreciated and I think most efficient. Thank you! MusicWizard7 (talk) 16:59, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
Hello, MusicWizard7,
You're not telling me what I was hoping to hear. And, I'm going to tell you something that you probably don't want to hear: I've restored the article to Draft space, you can find it at Draft:Daniel Fisher (composer).
I advise you to submit it for review to AFC. I can almost guarantee you that if you don't improve the article, if you move it directly back into main space of the project, it will likely to be tagged for deletion again. We have very vigilant page patrollers. And it will be more difficult to restore the page a second time if it gets deleted again. I can't force you to take my advice, I'm just telling you what I've seen over the past 9 years I've been editing here when I've seen this situation happen. Articles that are deleted and restored, get deleted again if the reason for the first deletion aren't addressed and the article improved. Good luck! Liz Read! Talk! 19:05, 25 June 2022 (UTC)


Hi @Liz, if you get some time, please can you help me in checking the articles that I've listed at WP:CCI#Turkupt13. The user shared a document on VRTS that says a number of over 55 articles published on turkistantravel website are freely licensed and could be used on Wikipedia. The articles that I've listed have been deleted for copyright violation of this website. I'd be glad if you assist me in this. Thanks. ─ The Aafī (talk) 06:22, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, TheAafi,
I've never done any work at WP:CCI so I'm afraid I really wouldn't know what I'm doing. As far as copyright violations go, I just check pages that have been tagged as CSD G12 to make sure the tag is appropriate. I work a lot with draft pages so if I see something that looks copied, I'll check that but I don't know how you look at past, partial edits for copyright violations and how you resolve them. Liz Read! Talk! 16:08, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
Perhaps the best person I should seek help from would be Diannaa from whom I've learnt a lot about copyright. ─ The Aafī on Mobile (talk) 20:05, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
I just see C.Fred has restored one article that they had deleted. ─ The Aafī (talk) 20:09, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
The best thing to do is to ask the admin who deleted each article to restore it. Also, a {{ticket confirmation}} template will need to be added to the talk page of each restored article. — Diannaa (talk) 21:14, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
This is best. I've reached to all the deleting admins. I'd definitely be adding permissions on the talk pages. Thanks for the idea! ─ The Aafī (talk) 21:35, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

New Page Patrol newsletter June 2022Edit

New Page Review queue June 2022

Hello Liz,

Backlog status

At the time of the last newsletter (No.27, May 2022), the backlog was approaching 16,000, having shot up rapidly from 6,000 over the prior two months. The attention the newsletter brought to the backlog sparked a flurry of activity. There was new discussion on process improvements, efforts to invite new editors to participate in NPP increased and more editors requested the NPP user right so they could help, and most importantly, the number of reviews picked up and the backlog decreased, dipping below 14,000[a] at the end of May.

Since then, the news has not been so good. The backlog is basically flat, hovering around 14,200. I wish I could report the number of reviews done and the number of new articles added to the queue. But the available statistics we have are woefully inadequate. The only real number we have is the net queue size.[b]

In the last 30 days, the top 100 reviewers have all made more than 16 patrols (up from 8 last month), and about 70 have averaged one review a day (up from 50 last month).

While there are more people doing more reviews, many of the ~730 with the NPP right are doing little. Most of the reviews are being done by the top 50 or 100 reviewers. They need your help. We appreciate every review done, but please aim to do one a day (on average, or 30 a month).

Backlog drive

A backlog reduction drive, coordinated by buidhe and Zippybonzo, will be held from July 1 to July 31. Sign up here.   Barnstars will be awarded.

TIP – New school articles

Many new articles on schools are being created by new users in developing and/or non-English-speaking countries. The authors are probably not even aware of Wikipedia's projects and policy pages. WP:WPSCH/AG has some excellent advice and resources specifically written for these users. Reviewers could consider providing such first-time article creators with a link to it while also mentioning that not all schools pass the GNG and that elementary schools are almost certainly not notable.


There is a new template available, {{NPP backlog}}, to show the current backlog. You can place it on your user or talk page as a reminder:

Very high unreviewed pages backlog: 9830 pages according to DatBot as of 18:00, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

There has been significant discussion at WP:VPP recently on NPP-related matters (Draftification, Deletion, Notability, Verifiability, Burden). Proposals that would somewhat ease the burden on NPP aren't gaining much traction, although there are suggestions that the role of NPP be fundamentally changed to focus only on major CSD-type issues.

  • Consider staying informed on project issues by putting the project discussion page on your watchlist.
  • If you have noticed a user with a good understanding of Wikipedia notability and deletion, suggest they help the effort by placing {{subst:NPR invite}} on their talk page.
  • If you are no longer very active on Wikipedia or you no longer wish to be part of the New Page Reviewer user group, please consider asking any admin to remove you from the list. This will enable NPP to have a better overview of its performance and what improvements need to be made to the process and its software.
  • To opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself here.
  1. ^ not including another ~6,000 redirects
  2. ^ The number of weekly reviews reported in the NPP feed includes redirects, which are not included in the backlog we primarily track.

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 10:01, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Soumendu Lahiri (2nd nomination)Edit

Respected Madam, I created an article on Soumendu Lahiri(Bengali Poet & Guitarist) which has been nominated for deletion, but I was not notified by the editor who tagged the page. Madam I have read wiki guidelines on notability and after that I created this article on this poet who got honor from The Hon'ble Governor of West Bengal, India. Soumendu Lahiri has some independent books which have ISBN. He has also been the subject of some news articles & his literary works have been published on renowned newspapers. But this page has been nominated for deletion and please permit me to mention that the person who tagged the page for deletion is not giving any satisfactory answer. You please see the afd debate as I'm not getting satisfactory answer from the person who tagged for deletion. Point to be noted that he is an Administrator of Bengali Wikipedia where from the page of Soumendu Lahiri has been deleted very recently. But the page had enough references to be remained. Respected Madam, I beg to you to please check the article Soumendu Lahiri on English Wikipedia and solve the matter. With Best Regards --- Tbengalieditor > Talk 12:58, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Tbengalieditor,
I'm not going to go into personal matters or a feud between you and another editor. But the problem that I see in this AFD nomination is that it is an argument between you, the article creator, and the AFD nominator. It needs feedback from other editors who can also evaluate the sources. So, I've relisted the AFD discussion for another week and hopefully more editors will weigh in.
I'm not a content creator but my suggestion to you, besides only providing high quality sources (a few reliable sources are better than many unreliable ones) is to reduce the Honors section to just the primary, prestigious awards he might have received. You don't need to mention every acknowledgment he has gotten and that section is generally only included for the most well-known authors. Good luck! Liz Read! Talk! 21:50, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Ma'am may I delete or reduce the honor section? Regards --- Tbengalieditor > Talk 03:06, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Well, in my experience, Tbengalieditor, it's better to have a short, to-the-point article, listing the most prominent, well sourced aspects of someone's career than to have a longer article with a reference from every time they were ever mentioned in the media. Concise is better than too long and padded with bad citations. You can save all of those other honors for when you write a book about them. Unless they won a Nobel prize, were elected Prime Minister or cured cancer, the top 2-3 honors is sufficient to show that they might have had a distinguished career. Liz Read! Talk! 18:54, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Ok Ma'am I will reduce extra details from recognition section and will only keep the most important parts. Regards - Tbengalieditor > Talk 19:00, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

CSD G4 candidateEdit

Thought you might be interested: I tagged Draft:Las Cruces Academy with CSD G4 template. Don't know why I didn't think of it before... Cheers! ─ Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 18:12, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Grand'mere Eugene,
Well, actually, there is disagreement among administrators whether or not CSD G4 applies to Draft space. Some admins say, "Absolutely not!" while other admins are less strict about it. The idea here is that the only way an AFD deletion decision can be overcome is to write a superior draft and submit it for review to WP:AFC. Since many AFDs were years ago and might have had few participants, there must be a way for new editors to address problems that were brought up in an AFD discussion and write a better article and Draft space is where this can be done. This situation is not true for the draft you tagged for deletion as it looks like the page creator had one copy of the article in main space and one copy in Draft space. Sometimes in these cases the admin closing the AFD discussion will delete the draft at the same time but not in this instance.
My own inclination is, as long as there is no problematic content, leave drafts alone if it looks like the page creator has stopped their work on it and let them "age out" as CSD G13s in six months. Then, if the editor returns one day, the page can be restored and the editor can try to write a stronger article. But that's just my point of view and I always hope that editors can learn from their unsuccessful efforts and write better articles with fewer problems...but the reality though is that most people facing the deletion of their articles just leave Wikipedia and do something else with their time. While I'm with most Wikipedia editors and want more, high quality articles added to the project, I can understand their frustration with meeting all of the requirements of our system. Liz Read! Talk! 22:03, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
Thanks, that's helpful. — Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 22:11, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Band of Pride AfDEdit

Hey, not sure how I missed this AfD. I haven't had time to do a full search yet, but just a quick search of newspapers.com revealed potential sources like this, this, this, this, this, and this that really should have been brought forward at the AfD. Thanks!! Ejgreen77 (talk) 04:25, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Ejgreen77,
The AFD closed as Soft Delete so I've restored it for you. Please feel free to add some superior sources to the article. Liz Read! Talk! 04:42, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
Thank you!!! Ejgreen77 (talk) 17:06, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Pringle and BardawilEdit

Hi Liz. I see you deleted the article on Qasr Bardawil, and I guess also the ones on Denys Pringle and Paul Deschamps, because the one who created them is blocked. Technically more than correct, but I do miss the material on the two researchers. I would happily recreate those two articles, based on the pre-existing but deleted work, but I don't know how to access it. Can you please help out? The blocked editor was in no way someone I could agree with on many topics, the Qasr Bardawil article had no merit (a mere spin-off of the al-'Al Castle material), but I was indeed very happy for having the other two, stubs as they were. Thank you! Arminden (talk) 05:07, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Arminden,
I think I'm a little slow this morning but it's not clear to me exactly what you are asking for. Were you seeking restoration of the articles? Did you want me to pull out the references from the deleted pages, put them on a new draft page so you could write a new article from scratch? I did look at one of the pages and see that yuo had edited the page so if you made a substantial contribution (which is difficult to judge on a deleted page), then that would be grounds for restoring it.
If you could be a bit more specific then I could tell you whether or not it is possible. Remember, all I can do is say "No" so it doesn't hurt to ask. Thank you. Liz Read! Talk! 18:48, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
Hi Liz, and thanks. Yes, I would appreciate having access to the Bardawil, Pringle and Deschamps material as it was before deletion, if possible. Sorry, I don't know what the rules are, but I felt the principle were to offer information rather than punish wrongdoers, especially if articles created by them went on being edited by legit editors. I miss the 2 articles on Pringle and Deschamps, and I'd be happy to rewrite them (and salvage a small bit from Bardawil and move it to al-'Al), but starting from scratch after they'd already been there and taken time and work feels Sisyphean and cuts down my enthusiasm to zero. If you had pinged me before they were gone, I'd have done it while they were still there. What can be done now please? Thank you and have a great Sunday! Arminden (talk) 10:03, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
Hi User:Arminden, yeah, I have the same problem as you. After I asked over here, the Pringle article thankfully got undeleted. I would wish for those other articles mentioned also be undeleted, perhaps moved to Draft-space? cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:24, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
Hello, Arminden and Huldra,
I'm sorry for the delay in responding but I find if I don't respond immediately to talk page messages, the messages move up the page and I lose track of them.
I have restored Qasr Bardawil and moved it to Draft:Qasr Bardawil. I'm afraid if the article is in main space, it will just be tagged for deletion again unless more substantial contributions are made to the draft. I'm reluctant to restore Paul Deschamps because the page was only edited by the sockpuppet and it was deleted by another administrator. Thank you for taking an extra step, Huldra, to help Arminden out with Denys Pringle. Liz Read! Talk! 00:14, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
Hi, and thanks to you both. I'm on a holiday, but will be back soon.
Regarding Deschamps: whatever means of not starting from scratch would do. I never knew about draft space, it's as good as any other method. If you place the deleted material here at the bottom for a while until I copy it, or send it by email, or in any other way: thank you Liz, and I'll take it from there. Cheers, Arminden (talk) 07:07, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
thanks, Liz, for moving Qasr Bardawil to draft. Is it possible to do the same for:
Hi Liz. Thanks for taking the time. Draft:Qasr Bardawil: I only wanted to save whatever can be used for al-'Al Castle, which is where practically all of the material comes from anyway. The talk-page is of more interest to me than the draft article itself.
In contrast to that, the Paul Deschamps stump is certainly worth quarrying for a new start - French Wiki has a nice article on him. Could you please dump whatever Alas2022 had already written onto my talk-page, and I'll take it from there, together with Huldra? I promise not to start anew without substantial changes to Alas's material, so as to justify a new article.
I also fully support Huldra's other proposals, these are worthy topics constantly popping up. Thanks again! Arminden (talk) 14:48, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

A hand please?Edit

Hello @Liz. I've seen you around at AFD, so your familiar name and recently active status means I have reached out to you for an admin perspective. I do a little 'lite' new page patrolling, tagging really low hanging fruit with CSD11 tags. Today I tagged Draft: Govind Dholakia, which by the way, has already been deleted thrice. The author, @Brakshit23 has left a polite but misguided note on my talk page about it's tagging. Normally I'd just respond, but last time someone tagged the article (an admin named JBW), immediately complained to JBW here, then before JBW could resolve it escalated to ANI. So, hoping you would please have a word with this user and see if we cannot end this salting>complain>delete cycle. Thanks, Max. MaxnaCarta (talk) 06:36, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Hie Max.. Appreciate your words and thanks once again to provide your inputs. I wrote that way harsh because it was my 1st proper contribution. But this time i have tried my bit as per the shared guidelines and shared knowledge. Please spare a bit time. read the article once and please share your views. this time its way simpler, neutral and without any biasness. please Brakshit23 (talk) 07:05, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
Hello, MaxnaCarta (and Brakshit23),
Although articles on this subject have been deleted before, and the main space page, Govind Dholakia, is protected from recreation of the article, your CSD tagging was reviewed and removed by an administrator as you know by their comment on your User talk page. Do not retag the draft unless you find it meets a different criteria for deletion such as copyright infringment. Even though past versions of this article have been deleted before, we don't normally prevent future, different versions from being created unless they are blatant advertising, which an admin decided this was not.
I don't see any threats or escalations made in their talk page comment to you so I don't see any misconduct occurring except an editor reaching out to discuss your deletion tagging of a page they created. While articles on this subject have been deleted in the past, unless recreation of a draft is prevented by page protection, editors have a right to try again. Brakshit23 will have to receive AFC reviewer approval to move this draft into main space after the page protection is lifted so I don't think you need to be concerned about this draft any longer.
I would advise you to let this one go and continue your good work and move on to reviewing some main space pages. We allow a lot of experimentation and article development in Draft space, more than is permitted in main space, so I think your efforts are better spent tagging promotional or copyright-violating content in main space than in reviewing drafts. We don't expect drafts to be perfect and meet Wikipedia standards which is why about half of the speedy deletion criteria (the CSD "A" ones) are only for main space articles, they don't apply to Draft space pages. I hope this has alleviated some of your concerns. Liz Read! Talk! 18:23, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
Thanks @Liz. MaxnaCarta (talk) 23:28, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
Thanks @Liz. Thanks MaxnaCarta.
Liz Currently i am trying to improve draft in draft space and get approval in review. please refer this one and suggest me if something to correct. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Govind_Dholakia Brakshit23 (talk) 08:56, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Yamata Amasung Keibu KeioibaEdit

I had pinged you at WP:Requests for undeletion#Yamata Amasung Keibu Keioiba. Jay (talk) 07:15, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Jay,
Thanks for letting me know. I've taken care for it. Have a great weekend. Liz Read! Talk! 18:00, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/SMP Negeri 1 KemangkonEdit

Hi Liz, thanks for the closure there, but I actually nominated two articles for deletion in that AFD ... did I not make that clear enough? I've gone and deleted the second one, SD Negeri 1 Pegandekan, myself ... I don't think that's a problem even if I nominated it because (a) you closed the AFD and (b) it's the worst of the two articles in that deletion discussion ... it's just about an elementary school. If you want to undelete/redelete it or something, be my guest. Graham87 15:11, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Graham,
Thanks for letting me know. I think it was a combination of relying too much on XfDCloser to do all of the work and having on-and-off computer problems for most of yesterday evening. I'll look more carefully in the future for additional pages proposed for deletion that are mentioned within the nomination statement. And maybe you can list them all together at the top of the nomination statement? Sorry for the mix-up. Liz Read! Talk! 17:53, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Tetea HmarEdit

The page I created was deleted though I explained the purpose as: "This page should not be speedily deleted because it is meant for a redirect to Lalnghinglova Hmar, who in the media is popularly known by the name Tetea Hmar." I don't know what exactly went wrong with mu editing, but it had todo with the tool. In fact, the person is more popular as Tetea in his native community, and a redirect may be useful. Chhandama (talk) 06:03, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Chhandama,
Are you talking about Tetea Hmar? This page was blank with just a broken redirect. Feel free to recreate a new redirect page but please, target it to an existing article, do not have a broken redirect as that will just get deleted. Liz Read! Talk! 00:44, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
Yes, and thanks. Chhandama (talk) 04:02, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

You've got mailEdit

Hello, Liz. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.Wneg345 (talk) 12:25, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

The Signpost: 26 June 2022Edit

Clayola BrownEdit

This article was written by me. However, it does not appear here. I'd appreciate, if you could spare some time to look into this matter. Regards. Dr.Pinsky (talk) 17:37, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Dr.Pinsky,
I'm no expert on https://xtools.wmflabs.org/! But if looks like Nathan2055 made the first edit on this page so he is given credit as the page creator...it isn't who added the most content to the article but who created or started the page who is given credit as article creator as far as I can tell.
If you have further questions, I recommend going to Wikipedia:Help desk or Wikipedia:Village pump (technical) where someone with technical knowledge about Wikipedia features and tools might be able to offer you some advice. Good luck! Liz Read! Talk! 18:20, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
Why did I get this notification if Nathan2055 was credited as the author of the article? I'm perplexed. Thanks. Dr.Pinsky (talk) 18:51, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
Hello, Dr.Pinsky,
Because the system is counter intuitive? For example, I look at expiring drafts all day and if I see one that looks promising, I submit it for review to AFC. So, when it gets declined or accepted, AFC notifies me, the person who submitted the draft, not the article creator. I've asked them about this but this is how the system is set up so I just accept that I get credit or rejection for draft articles I didn't write simply because I added an AFC submit tag to the page. I know this isn't a great explanation for why things work the way they do around here but I hope it does explain why you received a notification.
What I run into often is, Editor A writes an article. It is not in good shape. So, Editor B moves the article to Draft space and tags the original page for CSD R2 deletion. But, before an admin can delete the page, Editor A removes the speedy deletion tag and cuts and pastes the article back on to the main space page. Now, if this page gets deleted later, Editor B will receive the notification even though they didn't write the article but they created the page when they made it into a redirect to Draft space. So, I get get questions from page patrollers all of the time, "Why are you notifying me of this article tagged for deletion, I didn't write it!" But, as helpful as it is, Twinkle is also a little dumb and just looks for who made the first edit to the page. It looks like that is what happened with Clayola Brown, Nathan2055 moved the page from your User space to Draft space, creating a redirect and then an article was built on top of that redirect page.
I don't know if you keep count of these things on your User page but I think you can still list yourself as the article creator on your User page as it does look like you were the main contributor to the article (even if xtools doesn't recognize this fact!). Liz Read! Talk! 19:14, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
Thanks Liz. Much appreciated. Dr.Pinsky (talk) 19:20, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
(talk page watcher) @Dr.Pinsky: This happened because Nathan2055 moved a previous sandbox you had developed to Draft space before accepting, which "created" a redirect for navigational purposes. Dr.Pinsky created an article from this newly created history, so it is not showing in xtools, which is merely going by the first edit in the history. The AFC acceptance notification went to Dr.Pinsky because of who actually submits the article to be accepted. A history split for the first two revisions can be requested using {{History split}} at the top of Clayola Brown, or posting at WP:Requests for history merge (specifying you actually want a split, not merge). Or Liz (or any admin), could just delete the first two revisions from the history... I don't think you really need to split the history to preserve two revisions of a redirect in your own sandbox that were only helping with navigation (essentially a missed WP:U1 prior to new sandboxing). -2pou (talk) 19:22, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
@2pou: Much obliged. Dr.Pinsky (talk) 07:57, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Your AfC queryEdit

You might not check back at the AfC talk and I know your ping notifications are out of control so posting my comment here as well:

The acceptance notice is part of the AfC script and as far as I know not an option. The editors are not "purposefully" posting it their talk page like you do with most other notices. The more you and I discuss AfC the more I am recognizing how different it is from other processes. S0091 (talk) 23:42, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, S0091,
You are right on the money, I don't look at my ping notifications. It gets up to 99+, I try to clear it and soon it is back up to 99+ again. Doing this means that I miss out a lot on discussions but I just don't want to spend my time on Wikipedia following pings around to different pages when there is so much work to keep me busy.
I appreciate your explanation and that of other AFC reviewers. It kind of leaves the question of why an AFC reviewer would submit a draft (their own or someone else's) for review in order to give it approval when they could just move the page to main space. But maybe receiving that note of approval means a lot to people even when you are giving it to yourself! I know I think twice about tagging a page for deletion if I see in the page history that the article has gotten a positive AFC review so it can matter. Liz Read! Talk! 01:57, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Deletion Review: Pauline PreterismEdit

Hi! I would like to request for the undeletion of Pauline Preterism page and change its title to Pauline Eschatology since it's not a neologism. Also, it won't appear as an original work and it can be properly sourced. Please restore the page so that I can make edits to it. Thank you. Transformium (talk) 07:37, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Transformium,
I closed Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pauline Preterism as "Delete" based on the discussion I reviewed. I can't overturn this decision based on my own opinion. If you believe that my assessment was incorrect, you can file a notice at Wikipedia:Deletion review and ask for my decision to be reviewed.
The only way I know to overcome an AFD deletion decision is to write a draft article, which addresses the problems editors found with the original article, and submit it for review with Articles for Creation. However, if you write a new version of this article and put it back in the main space of the project, it will be tagged for speedy deletion CSD G4 as the recreation of an article deleted in an AFD discussion. Going through AFC would give you a better chance at creating a better version of this article. Good luck. Liz Read! Talk! 01:23, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for the very useful info. Keep up the good work. Transformium (talk) 17:58, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Anthonie Palamedesz.Edit

Hi Liz. The situation in the Anthonie Palamedesz. article is a little more complex than first appears, and you are not the only one who assumed (quite understandably) that the full stop at the end was a typo. However, as reliable sources indicate, his name does end with a full stop. Because we now have an open RfD which people, including myself, have commented on, it is not easy to sort this out. However, as the page mover, and the one who opened the RfD, you can resolve this quite quickly by reverting your page move, and withdrawing the RfD: Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2022_June_23#Anthonie_Palamedesz.. (Be aware, the most recent comment shows some frustration with your action, and your delay in responding to my earlier pings. I think the comment is out of order, though I understand the frustration that engendered the comment.) If you prefer, you could just indicate here that you agree that the RfD should be withdrawn, and I'll do the paper work. Regards. SilkTork (talk) 13:48, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, SilkTork,
I have withdrawn my RFD proposal and closed the discussion. I don't check my pings since it always looks like I have over 100 and I'd rather spend my time doing work than checking every time my username is mentioned. As for my talk page, I check it at the end of the day and respond to messages then.
There was an unexpected period at the end of a person's name. It seemed like a typo. I see mistakes like this occasionally and the pages are typically deleted at CSD as incorrect titles. It happens all of the time with category titles which seem to be misspelled frequently. I don't understand why a simple RFD proposal would elicit this kind of intense emotional reaction and backlash at the nominator. The discussion was obviously going to be closed at Keep on Thursday so I don't understand the urgency of all this and the bewildering claim that by initiating a discussion, I had caused "damage". At AFD, terrible comments are made about the subject of articles being proposed for deletion, that they are unimportant, that they are forgettable, that they are academics or athletes who had meaningless careers...this was a proposal about what I thought was a misplaced period! I didn't realize that this happens with some languages and proper names but the reaction to this RFD was completely over-the-top and I clearly hit a nerve that is bigger than my simple proposal. Liz Read! Talk! 23:59, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
I also do not know why I was singled out on this subject. Both Primefac and Praxidicae moved this article to a title without the period because they also thought it was a typo. I think insisting on having a period at the end of his name on the main article title will cause continued move-warring. Best to keep that page as a redirect. Liz Read! Talk! 00:32, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
I understand what you're saying Liz. However, as we name articles after what reliable sources say, then the article should be Anthonie Palamedesz. while Anthonie Palamedesz should be the redirect; the way to avoid future inappropriate page moves is to lock the page at that name, so only admins can move it. And, faced with a lock, admins will think twice before doing the move, realising that the name is not a typo as it first appears. Thanks for closing the RfD. I'll do the page move and lock. SilkTork (talk) 10:58, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Can you take a look at...?Edit

Hello Liz. I hope you are having a good day. While I was patrolling Special:NewPages, I came across Draft:Notabot. The edit summary for when it was created contained racist material. I thought it would be an attack page, but it was a declined blank submission to AfC. I was wondering if there was anything you, as an administrator, can do about it, such as edit summary removal. Thanks. --LPS and MLP Fan (Littlest Pet Shop and My Little Pony Fan) 16:53, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, LPS and MLP Fan,
You are absolutely right, I have revision deleted that edit summary and warned the editor. Sorry it took me a while to get to this today. Liz Read! Talk! 23:38, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Malacates, Mexico CityEdit

Hello, I just saw that you deleted an article I created for Malacates, Mexico City. While there is an article for Colonia Malacates Ampliación, this is actually a different neighborhood than Malacates. I am guessing the reason it was deleted is that it seemed a duplicate. Is there another reason?

Thanks! Matthew MatthewMMcM (talk) 18:24, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, MatthewMMcM,
Well, you are partially wrong and partially right. I did delete a page but it wasn't an article. It was a redirect and it was deleted because we don't allow redirects that point from main space to Draft space. The article that was at Malacates, Mexico City was moved to Draft:Malacates, Mexico City (by you, in fact) and I deleted the main space page that had a redirect from main space to a Draft space target. It looks like Draft:Malacates, Mexico City was then turned into another redirect pointing to Colonia Malacates Ampliación. If you want to continue to work on this draft, I believe you can undo the edit that changed it into a redirect if you believe you have content that would eventually be enough for a stand-alone article on this subject. But no article on this subject was ever deleted...it was just moved and later changed into a redirect page. You can find all of the content in the page history. I hope this explanation helps you understand what happened.
If you have further questions about article creation or redirects, please bring them to the Teahouse. Thank you. Liz Read! Talk! 18:37, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Raft of unreferenced/orphan human settlement articlesEdit

Hi Liz, I hope you are doing well. I have a somewhat odd question. I have been clearing out unreferenced articles and have noticed a number of 1-3 line pages of human settlements, a good number of which don't appear on Google Maps, even if the coordinates are listed, all created by user MIDI who seems have created literally hundreds of articles on Kenyan settlements, among other locations, using AWB. Some of these are substantial/notable and cited according but many have no indication of importance (importance for human settlements by virtue of being a human settlement) and some I cannot find proof that they even exist. I don't want to spam the good people of AFD but I think this is a serious issue to address, given the sheer volume and the amount of potentially inaccurate and erroneous information these articles may contain. As an admin, do you have any suggestions for a way of addressing these issues as a batch, or do I just keep chipping away one PROD tag at a time? Thanks for any help you can offer! Kazamzam (talk) 20:28, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Kazamzam,
Sorry for the delay in replying to you. I have deleted quite a few PRODs about unincorporated settlements but I haven't done much work on evaluating the sources that verify them (or the lack of sources). We have several editors/admins who I consider pros in this subject but the only names that come to mind right now are Hog Farm and Mongoe. Maybe if they watch their pings, they can come over and offer you some guidance. I know Hog Farm has dealt with hundreds of poorly sourced geo articles before and PROD can be pretty effective as long as you don't tag them all on the same day! Please, no! Liz Read! Talk! 20:34, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
The one thing to watch here will be that coverage may not be easily findable on the internet - for African places in general sources often aren't digitized or aren't in English. But honestly, the ones I've tabbed through are mainly one-liners yanked from a database. (maybe GEOnet Names Server which is a problematic source for non-US places for a variety of reasons) A note on Google maps - any descriptions found on there are often pulled from Wikipedia or similar sources. Coordinates on there not matching may be a rounding/precision mistake (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Acodale, Virginia). I'd say if you're reasonably confident that there's nothing significant for a certain location, just to PROD it, although I wouldn't do more than 4 or 5 or so a day to start with (I've done more than that at times but I've also done that sort of thing for USA places long enough I can get away with a little more). Not necessary to bring a bunch to AFD unless the PRODs are contested or you're unsure on one; I do know of one case where a WP:AN discussion nuked a thousand or so but that was a very special case that also led to a desysopping. Hog Farm Talk 20:53, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
Many thanks for sharing your expertise, Hog Farm! Liz Read! Talk! 20:56, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
I would check some of the coordinates given against GEONAMES; if they are the same, then it is likely they were created by scraping it, and that's not good. In some countries we have matched up census and geographic data. Unfortunately the Kenyan census site is at present being forwarded to some hacking site, so it's unusable.
The real question here is the amount of effort you should be putting into this. Having done this in two countries and a number of US states, my patience for looking at each and very article is wearing very thin. And my experience with GEONAMES and third world counties is especially poor. Finding sources beyond government databases for anything much short of a pretty large city or a regional capital has always been next to impossible. When I did Somalia the best we could do was look at GMaps to see if there was a sign of habitation there, which is a lot of work and dubious at that. My feeling is that if you find a lot of problems, we need to talk about deleting the lot en masse, as there doesn't seem to be much hope of verifying or expanding these articles as it stands. Mangoe (talk) 05:16, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
Woof. I think the creator has, since this has been brought to his attention, gone through and redirected a lot of these stubs, which kind of helps but doesn't fully resolve the issue. Given the number of articles that were created simultaneously and the fact that they were done in alphabetical order, I assume this is from a scrapping of GEONAMES. I have already tried to cite/expand a few dozen myself but, yes, it's been a slog and my patience is not infinite. I'm open to waiting to see if/how the creator address them but this might become a larger issue of a mass deletion. Definitely feels out of my depth as a relatively new editor - thank you all so much for your advice and assistance! Kazamzam (talk) 19:26, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for deleting my error!Edit

And thanks for the kind note explaining it. I made a mistake in forming the title; I set up another with the correct title, and I meant to go back and try to figure out what to do with the bad one. You saved me the trouble. Uporządnicki (talk) 01:29, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

No problem! Liz Read! Talk! 20:24, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Categories for discussionEdit

Back in January 2022, you promised that it's on my "To Do" list to try to take on some more simple closures next month, but don't appear to have followed up on that. Since the instructions for closing discussions have recently been rewritten again, and CfD is still badly backlogged, I figured I should remind you. * Pppery * it has begun... 20:14, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, * Pppery *,
Sigh. I really dread dealing with CFD. But it's hard to argue with oneself when someone else points out to you what you once said six months ago (I don't know if I'd call it a "promise" though). I'll read over the confusing CFD instructions again and see if they sink in.
By the way, have you noticed we have some very competent non-admins closing CFD discussions now? I delete category pages they have tagged and it looks like they are doing a good job. But I need to go farther so I'll try to teach myself all about User:JJMC89 bot III and how it functions. Liz Read! Talk! 20:23, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

NPP July 2022 backlog drive is on!Edit

New Page Patrol | July 2022 Backlog Drive
  • On 1 July, a one-month backlog drive for New Page Patrol will begin.
  • Barnstars will be awarded based on the number of articles patrolled.
  • Barnstars will also be granted for re-reviewing articles previously reviewed by other patrollers during the drive.
  • Redirect patrolling is not part of the drive.
  • Interested in taking part? Sign up here.
You're receiving this message because you are a new page patroller. To opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself here.

(t · c) buidhe 20:25, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Some data you may be interested inEdit

...based on your evidence at arbitration. I'm not submitting it myself, since I don't think it really shows anything (other than, perhaps, the effect the introductions of A7, prod, and G11 have had on afd).

Total number of afds, average different users per afd, and total distinct users on June 20 of each year and in May of each year. (Not June of each year, so as to avoid the still-open afds from the past few week.) —Cryptic 21:22, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Cryptic,
I find this fascinating! Thanks for drawing this up. Boy, 2005 was a crazy time on Wikipedia, they needed all of those extra editors they had 17 years ago. Imagine having 15-19 editors weighing in on most AFD nominations! I bet things were very contentious.
I started editing regularly in 2013 so I don't remember a time before A7, PROD and G11. But I wonder what can account for the boost in AFD participants last year? More people working at home? I remember back in 2020 people predicting we would have more active editors because of COVID-19 restrictions but I don't think the number of editors curve really bumped up that much.
I don't think I would call my commenta "evidence", I just can see both sides in this dispute and I think it's important to consider the context of the AFD area now and what the frequent nominators are trying to accomplish vs. those who see their behavior as rash. I'm not sure if your stats would influence the consideration of this case but I think they add a lot to understanding the current decrease that the AFD area is seeing in editor participation. I think a lot of people who use to participate there are just tired of making the same arguments over and over again and have moved on to other activities. Thanks again for your work on Quarry! Liz Read! Talk! 21:39, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
I think the increase on June 20 last year is probably a blip - the number of afds nominated varies from day to day, and the more afds you have the more total users you're likely to have. There's a much less-pronounced increase specifically in 2021 in the per-month data; and though there's an overall increase in number of users for the past three years of the pandemic, it too corresponds to an increase in the number of afds.
VFD in 2005 was plain awful. We didn't have the GNG or anything else approximating objective criteria, other than CSD (then much shorter than now) on the one hand and various often-edited and bitterly-disputed SNGs (then much longer); so when people were talking about whether subjects were notable or not, we meant it in the plain English sense of the word. And that wasn't just accepted, but expected. —Cryptic 22:11, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Question about foraEdit

Hello Liz,

I've been around for a while, and although I help admin over at EN Wikt, I've not engaged here on EN WP with regard to the inner workings quite so much. I have some growing concerns about poor-quality machine-translated articles, mostly those coming out of Japanese as I can read the source (and which MT systems commonly butcher), and which the currently active new-article reviewers appear to be passing right through, including marking as "B-Class" despite grave issues with the content (such as at Talk:Yamato_Kingship).

I would like to bring up this issue in one of the discussion fora here, but I'm a bit at a loss as to which would be the most appropriate for striking up a thread with regard to getting a better handle on what review criteria actually are (since apparently the Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Grading scheme isn't really being used), and how to improve the review process. From our limited interactions so far, I think you're more knowledgeable about reviewing and WP processes than I am. Could you offer any advice about where I could post such a thread?

TIA! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:20, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Eirikr,
Wow, I don't know much about this subject. I do know that machine translation recently became an issue on WP:ANI with some Arabic students writing a lot of articles about poets that some editors thought were machine translations. You could bring this case to ANI if you have clear-cut evidence that would seem obvious to others or you could nominate the articles for deletion at WP:AFD. I don't know of a policy page or a central place to discuss this subject, resolving problems on Wikipedia usually either focuses on problematic editors or problematic content/articles, not the underlying issue. Wherever you raise this issue, I think you will find some sympathetic editors as machine translations have been recently acknowledged to be an unaddressed problem on the project. I'm sorry I couldn't be more help to you. Liz Read! Talk! 01:32, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
Might get some luck asking at WT:PNT. —Cryptic 01:35, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Nicholas AlahverdianEdit

When you say former Wikipedia editor what are you referring to? I hate that I'm so invested in the article's subject and everything that's ongoing, but that was a bit of information I did not know about, and I can't find any mention of it in the article or the talk page. Like I know he (likely) edited his own Wikipedia page, but was he like an established editor before that or something? - Aoidh (talk) 00:48, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Not Liz but Alahverdian has edited extensively (about himself) for years, and even as recently as the last few months. He was never quite an established editor. PRAXIDICAE🌈 00:52, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
(ec)Hello, Aoidh,
He had a number of sockpuppets and actively edited his articles which were under several different names as well as AFDs that involved them. It goes back to 2007, I believe. It was all very self-promotional, inflating his credentials, I can look into it but I don't think he edited articles that weren't about him. I'll try to track down some links if you are curious but most of the details will be buried in deleted contributions.
But that's how the fact he faked his death became obvious to some of us and that folks at Wikipediocracy who first publicized it months ago...one of his sockpuppets started editing again. Kind of a sign that he wasn't deceased! But I was reluctant to add information to his article because at the time it was all speculation until he was arrested. I wouldn't consider him an editor in good standing here but I don't know if there was ever a formal SPI case opened. It is a compelling case and it looks like the British papers are more on top of it than U.S. ones. They want him out of their country!
By the way, there is an even more notorious former Wikipedia editor who is in current legal trouble but this can be a dreary rabbithole to fall into. Liz Read! Talk! 00:59, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
Thank you for that context, I don't know why Alahverdian's page was on my watchlist initially but I do the remember the "oh he's dead" then suddenly "is he?" back and forth. I'm all about rabbitholes lately, who is the other editor? - Aoidh (talk) 01:02, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
Luka Magnotta? :P PRAXIDICAE🌈 01:04, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
Oh goodness I hope not I thought all that was said and done. - Aoidh (talk) 01:06, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
Okay, don't say I didn't warn you...Nathan Larson (politician). I see that the editors working on it decided to use the most unflattering image possible on his article. User:Nathan Larson~enwiki was his first account but his extensive SPI case is at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Sarsaparilla/Archive. He mostly edited political articles, his extreme views on social issues like on race, gender and sexuality he mostly kept on his own blog/website. Truly predatory, creepy, abhorrent stuff. He makes faking your deah and fraud look like a standard conman stuff, not evil incarnate. Liz Read! Talk! 01:20, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
Wow. Well that's certainly something. I have no words. - Aoidh (talk) 02:11, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
Aoidh, I was wrong, we do have an SPI on Nicholas Alahverdian's socks at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Dr42/Archive and I see 5 related AFD discussions on articles about him that are listed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nicholas E. Alahverdian (honestly, there could be more than 5 articles but this is what I found in a five minute search). Two of the AFDs actually closed as "Keep". Interesting now to look at who voted to "Keep" these articles and see if they were sockpuppets. More rabbitholes for you to waste time on this weekend! Liz Read! Talk! 01:38, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
Looking more closely at the SPI, it shows that articles on this guy were deleted, either through AFD or CSD THIRTEEN TIMES! At least 13 times over the years this guy tried to have an article on himself on Wikipedia. That is dogged persistence. Well, he won out eventually, he does have an article on himself on Wikipedia, just not a very flattering one. Liz Read! Talk! 01:47, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
ARS went ahead and ruined the deletion streak for us when they overwhelmingly voted to keep in one of the last ones because "he's an author" and "went to Harvard" (both of which were demonstrably true then and now.) PRAXIDICAE🌈 01:52, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
From what I've read, he attended some Harvard Extension classes but claimed he graduated from Harvard University but he was dismissed after some legal problems emerged. Liz Read! Talk! 01:55, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
He attended a community college course basically (I can't divulge some of this because of ~reasons~) but none of it was real, for lack of a better word. His books are pretty terrible if you're into self-aggrandizing jack-offs who barely have a grasp of their own native language (and they're free on google books.) PRAXIDICAE🌈 01:57, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
Yes, I'm wondering now if I need to cite RS on some of this info and if they could be seen as BLP violations. Some of these details are in his own article though. Liz Read! Talk! 01:59, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
hey, he still claims he's dead, so BLP doesn't apply! ;) PRAXIDICAE🌈 02:04, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
Yeah the irony is that he really wanted an article on himself. Now I'm sure he really wishes he didn't. - Aoidh (talk) 02:11, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
Well that's easily evidenced by his multiple failed takedown notices PRAXIDICAE🌈 02:16, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
Wow, Praxidicae, that's a new rabbithole for me to go down. I know, for some reason, he (I mean, his estate), wanted his photo with Pence removed. There was a phony image of someone else on his article for a while, his estate seems to want to eliminate all images of himself from the public internet. Liz Read! Talk! 02:23, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
Looks like you can add Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Fred newman/Archive to the related sockpuppets too. Rabbithole indeed. - Aoidh (talk) 02:26, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
It gets even more bizarre. Arthur Knight, "the Irish-born man" who was arrested, and his wife both aren't keeping a low profile. They are pleading their case on social media, according to the British press. Liz Read! Talk! 02:42, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
It does bring up a unique BLP dilemma...can one violate the privacy of a person who is claimed to have died 2 1/2 years ago when there is no evidence that he actually died? Liz Read! Talk! 02:47, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
They are simultaneously trying to keep a low profile while also being as loud about it as possible. I think just because he's a (bad) liar doesn't mean that the lie invalidates something like WP:BLP. - Aoidh (talk) 02:56, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
Then whose privacy are we protecting, Nicholas Alahverdian, who has died, or Arthur Knight who is definitely alive? Until it's decided in court who is who, through DNA, it's a toss-up despite whatever we believe on our own. But the court cases keep getting delayed for one reason or another. Liz Read! Talk! 03:02, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
After rereading his article, which I hadn't done lately, I realize that it goes much farther than the discussion here, in terms of its substantiated claims. As far as the courts go, it's come down to a final hearing, he either has to face up to the truth or flee again. This article was interesting. Liz Read! Talk! 03:57, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
I was going to comment on the article's talk page but this isn't really about the article. I didn't see any paywalls on the links that were posted on the talk page, but whenever I run into a paywall I can go to translate.google.com and input the URL in the "website" field and it will "translate it" from English to English and remove the paywall (for most paywalls). 12ft.io works similarly but also doesn't work on all websites. You may already know about that trick but I just thought I'd offer it in case you don't. I find it really helpful when trying to verify references and such. - Aoidh (talk) 03:59, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
I've tried that with Google with the Wall Street Journal but it hasn't worked. Some of the Providence Journal articles were only available to subscribers. I'll try this and see if it works. Thanks for the suggestion! I never thought about trying the translation page. Liz Read! Talk! 04:02, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
Yeah the WSJ is absolutely the one that doesn't play along with that trick, or any trick that I've found. I've even tried installing Chrome which I don't use and turning off Javascript to see if that would work and it doesn't. If you find a way to get around WSJ please let me know. - Aoidh (talk) 04:07, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
I got curious and went digging and found a way around WSJ's paywall (on Firefox at least). This addon worked perfectly. - Aoidh (talk) 04:15, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
Cool, Aoidh! Thanks for the suggestion. Liz Read! Talk! 04:19, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
I subscribe to ProJo just for this. If you want copies of anything I can email them. PRAXIDICAE🌈 18:19, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Vsevolod Valentinovich Konstantinov (July 2)Edit

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by S0091 was:  The comment the reviewer left was: Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.
S0091 (talk) 23:16, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
Hello, S0091,
I knew that this article wouldn't be accepted (although I didn't expect it to be reviewed so quickly!) but it was clear that the draft creator meant to submit it for review and didn't get the "submit" code correctly on the page so I fixed their edit. I might cut and paste this refusal on to their talk page so they can see why it was declined. Thank you for your prompt review. Liz Read! Talk! 23:19, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
I will take care of moving the message. If you want the messages to go to the creator, I can provide instructions (I think). Give me a few to put that together. S0091 (talk) 23:22, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
Ok,I copied the decline message over to the creator's talk page. I didn't want to mess up your talk page so left it as is so you can amend as you see fit. So to change the submitter, after you have submitted a draft edit the draft in source mode, then change the "u=" parameter from your user name to theirs:
{{AfC submission|||ts=20220702224304|u=Ghz91|ns=118}}
I copied the above from a currently submitted draft, Draft:Bioenergy economy. In this example had you submitted it, it would be u=Liz so you would change it to u=Ghz91. S0091 (talk) 23:40, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
The version for human editors is {{subst:submit|username}}, or (to put the afc template there without immediately submitting it) {{subst:afc draft|username}}. The documentation's at Template:AfC submission, where you'd expect it. —Cryptic 23:48, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
Hello, S0091 and Cryptic,
Oh, this is very helpful! I've been getting unearned congratulations and rejections for years for promising drafts I've seen and submitted while going through the daily expiring CSD G13 drafts that I had nothing else to do with! Now I know how to properly tag them. Many thanks! Liz Read! Talk! 23:53, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
Thanks @Cryptic, this was helpful for me as well. When did we become human? (ha!) S0091 (talk) 23:56, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Question, please, about a draft article Zoe EmpowersEdit

{{You've got mail}}

Hi, Liz, I hope I did the "You've got mail" template correctly.

I want to rewrite an article that was deleted. This is the first article I have tried to write and it was deleted, so I want to redo it. It is called Zoe Empowers. I am following the AFC template, and I saw the following (See below), so I am asking you what I need to do. I don't know why, but I am following instructions. Here is what I read.. Please tell me if it is OK to go ahead with writing the draft. Thank you so much! Namamacs


A page with this title has previously been moved or deleted.

If you are creating a new page with different content, please continue. If you are recreating a page similar to the previously deleted page, or are unsure, please first contact the user(s) who performed the action(s) listed below.

Namamacs (talk) 23:26, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Namamacs,
I deleted Draft:Zoe Empowers which was just a page redirect. You wrote the draft and moved it to main space, Zoe Empowers, where it was deleted by a different admin than myself (look at the deletion note at the top of the page). The redirect was just a page that had a link from the draft page to the main space page. Once Zoe Empowers was deleted, it became a "broken redirect" and they are deleted.
If you want to try again, I suggest that you submit the draft for review by an Articles for Creation reviewer who can help you avoid having the article deleted by telling you if there are any problems with the draft. Moving pages prematurely to main space often can result in their deletion if they are written by new editors who are not familiar with Wikipedia's standards.
If you contact the admin who deleted Zoe Empowers and ask him to move the page to Draft or User space (like your Sandbox), you may not have to start from scratch but that would be his judgment call. Good luck. Liz Read! Talk! 02:59, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
(talk page stalker) @Namamacs, Liz and I agree with regard to the AFC process. I suspect they may also agree that once an article is deleted it is far better to start from the basics rather than to try to modify what proved successfully how not to do it. I linked to a useful essay on your talk page. Inside it is a process which works, provided the topic is inherently notable, It's vital to start by finding references and creating a storyboard from what they say. Doing it the other way around forces references to fit your text. That often fails. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 15:37, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
Thank you so much, Liz, for your explanation and information. I so much appreciate all the help I am receiving from Wikipedia folks. Yes, I contacted the admin who removed the page, and he sent very helpful advice. I am finding Wikipedia to be a very encouraging place with people like you and Timtrent so helpful to newcomers. Also, I agree with you and Timtrent that starting from scratch is a good idea. However, I am not sure the organization is "notable' enough yet to be on Wikipedia. So, I'll probably move on to my other causes for awhile. Namamacs Namamacs (talk) 22:45, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

NCAA Season 97 volleyball tournamentsEdit

Hi Liz, Good day, for context, the on-going season for NCAA Philippines is Season 97 (2022). The NCAA Season 98 (2023) is yet to be held; I also noticed that User:Chris 0411F has included the list of teams that are in another Philippine collegiate league, UAAP, instead of the local NCAA. They have done it in NCAA Season 97 volleyball tournaments page as well. My apologies, it should have been disruptive editing, and not necessarily vandalism. Thank you.   Linsanity   02:48, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Linsanity,
Thank you for the explanation. I didn't understand why the article that was tagged for speedy deletion was "invented" as it just looked like another season page. Right now, Chris 0411F has been briefly blocked for disruptive editing. Thanks again, I appreciate the context. Liz Read! Talk! 02:52, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Tausch - article for deletion?Edit

Cesar, Circus Maximus, Thumb up, Thumb down? User Randykitty seems to push for a quick deletion of the Tausch article, which she proposed already three times for deletion before.

But more neutrality, please. This morning, I visited the website of one of the best libraries of political science in the world, the Dudley Knox Library of the United States Navy Postgraduate School in Monterey in California. Any Wikipedia decision maker now deciding in this deletion Circus Maximus process is kindly invited to look at the Tausch entries in the Monterey library system, [1].

User Randykitty stated in her present contribution in a sentence that could imply a lack of the necessary neutrality and a rather sweeping value judgement about the curriculum vitae of a living person stating that:

"The way it is written, it's rather shocking to see that such an incredibly successful and influential researcher has only ever held adjunct and visiting positions...". But Wikipedia is not the personnel service office of a University.

This non-neutral statement, together with the other non-neutral statement:

„In my opinion, albeit not too convincingly, this academic meets WP:ACADEMIC


„I tagged this for WP:CSD#G11, but that was denied by Liz given the AfD history“.

Well, if user Randykitty were more familiar with the academic system in Continental Europe, she would realize that it is quite normal that "Privatdozenten" [2], i.e. "adjunct professors" are working nowadays for hundreds of institutions, like government bureaucracies, think tanks, etc, and not only for the Universities. Arno Tausch, at age 71, joined the ranks of the Austrian diplomatic service in 1992, became Counsellor for Labour and Migration at the Austrian Embassy in Warsaw, and then, from 1999 onwards, worked for the Austrian Ministry of Social Affairs in Vienna until his retirement in 2016. [3]

In the framework of improving Wikipedia coverage of Austrian debates and Austrian political science, I will certainly do my best to improve the article over the coming weeks, and especially to shorten it and to free it from citation overload.

As to independent sources from the world press, I will refer to an interesting and very lengthy article published by Al Jazeera on Tausch, it's in Arabic, and I will certainly refer to it in the improved version which I will present. The reference is:

Springer, one of the world’s biggest and most important publishing houses, now lists none the less than 70 entries with Arno Tausch as author, from 1980 onwards to the present day. [4]

At the end of the day, there are not too many Austrian political scientists, who have made it to the pages Le Monde and Al Jazeera and of think tanks like the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, and the Institute for National Security Studies in Tel Aviv. His regular contributions to Wiener Zeitung are a proof that this author also contributes to the defense of the values of the open society in Austria, so Wikipedia should handle this “thumbs up thumbs down” issue with great care.

Austrian political observer (talk)Austrian political observer (talk) 05:14, 4 July 2022 (UTC) Austrian political observer (talk) 05:19, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Austrian political observer,
You have posted a wall of content that I'm not going to read. What are you asking of me exactly? Please be brief, do not go into any more detail. I'm about to delete your excessive comments from my talk page. Liz Read! Talk! 05:24, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Deleted Draft - SOTIEdit

Hello, Liz. Thank you for taking the time to read my question. I'm hoping you can help me. I had been trying to create an article for the company I work for, SOTI. It had been a while since I had actually created a new article (2009) and had not been aware of disclosure rules which are now in place and the draft I had created was not approved and eventually deleted by you (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:SOTI). It appears that Wikipedia also deleted my old account (Special:Contributions/Adaś), so here I am with a new account complete with a paid contribution disclosure in my user profile per the rules, as I understand them.

For the article draft itself, I have reviewed the requirements for notability (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(organizations_and_companies)) to check that this topic meets all requirements.

The following links which I included on the topic in the draft appear meet the criteria of being stand-alone and receiving significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. Also, they seem to show “verifiable evidence that the organization or product has attracted the notice of reliable sources unrelated to the organization or product”: - https://www.bbc.com/news/business-40504764 - https://financialpost.com/entrepreneur/growth-strategies/soti-builds-on-its-early-lead-in-mobile-enterprise-market - https://www.itworldcanada.com/article/soti-launches-soti-aerospace-in-collaboration-with-ryerson-university/438339 - https://news.bloomberglaw.com/ip-law/case-patents-attorneys-fees-e-d-tex-2 o https://outline.com/LvGzeS - https://www.law360.com/articles/1385360 o https://outline.com/gTW5aK

Another reason for notability is the topic's significant or demonstrable effects on culture, society, entertainment, athletics, economies, history, literature, science, or education. I believe this article regarding drone research conducted by the company shows evidence of this: https://www.itworldcanada.com/article/soti-launches-soti-aerospace-in-collaboration-with-ryerson-university/438339

Also, the notability requirements for organizations note significant, independent, and reliable product reviews. Here are two examples: - https://www.techradar.com/reviews/soti-mobicontrol-mdm - https://www.pcmag.com/reviews/soti-mobicontrol

I would like to ask if it would be possible to retrieve the draft and allow me to submit for publication again now that I have ensured that I am properly following the paid contribution disclosure rules. I am happy to also add the Connected contributor (paid) template to the draft. I wanted to follow the recommendations and not resubmit a brand new submission but see if you would be willing to bring back the draft, given the background on the situation. Thanks in advance, it's taken me some time to wrap my head around this and I hope I haven't missed anything. Fab Colab (talk) 02:14, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Fab Colab,
First, Wikipedia doesn't delete accounts, we can delete User pages that are inappropriate but that is not the case with User:Adaś.
Second, thank you for posting the disclosure. Editors can be blocked for undisclosed paid editing so disclosure is the way to go.
Finally, Draft:SOTI was deleted because, as a policy, we delete draft pages which are considered to be "abandoned" which means no editing activity on them for six months or longer (what is what we call CSD G13 criteria). These drafts can be restored upon request either to the deleting administrator or by going to WP:REFUND and requesting it there. You don't have to demonstrate notability for this. But if you could incorporate any reliable sources you have located into the draft content, it is more likely to get approval from an Articles for Creation reviewer. This draft has gotten declined many times so, honestly, it might be best if you took the best parts of the article and started from scratch.
I hope this addresses some of your concerns. Liz Read! Talk! 01:36, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
Thank you, Liz. I appreciate your helpful reply. Have a great day :) Fab Colab (talk) 13:59, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Soft deletion followupEdit

Hi Liz. Hope all is well. I saw your relisting comment at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cavaliers–Celtics rivalry (2nd nomination) of "Not eligible for a Soft Deletion". Did you mean the page is not eligible at all for soft deletion, or that it should go through at least one relist first?—Bagumba (talk) 09:16, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) The article is ineligible. For a soft deletion the closing administrator should treat the XfD nomination as an expired PROD. Articles that have previously been to AfD are not eligible to be deleted under a PROD. Happy Editing--IAmChaos 00:32, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
@IAmChaos You seem to be referring to WP:NOQUORUM: If a nomination has received few or no comments from any editor with no one opposing deletion, and the article hasn't been declined for proposed deletion in the past, the closing administrator should treat the XfD nomination as an expired PROD and follow the instructions listed at Wikipedia:Proposed deletion#Procedure for administrators. If so, that wording explicitly mentions declined PRODs, but not past AfDs, which seems ambiguous, given your interpretation. —Bagumba (talk) 01:12, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
If you click through to the link you provided (procedures), see step 4. an article is only eligible for prod if it was never subject to a deletion discussion.. Happy Editing--IAmChaos 01:17, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
If the intention was to have prior AfDs be a disqualifier, my suggestion for improvement would be that it be explicitly mentioned at NOQUORUM, along with the existing verbiage for declined PRODs. —Bagumba (talk) 01:38, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
Hello, Bagumba,
Well, this is confusing. I have been told, adamently, that Soft Deletion was not available for articles that had been PROD'd before or been through a previous AFD. I was told this when I used Soft Deletion for articles that I was told weren't eligible for it. So, this was my understanding and also what I had seen since I started patrolling AFD a few months ago. I will say that most of the admins I see who regularly patrol AFDs only use straight "Delete" and don't use the option of "Soft Deletion".
Since this article had been deleted via Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cavaliers–Celtics rivalry, I thought it was ineligible for Soft Deletion. It has nothing to do with relisting the discussion. Personally, I'm a fan of relisting discussions with little participation and only the nominator's statement but other admins will simply close these discussions as "Delete". But right now, when I went to review policy on this subject, at WP:NOQUORUM, it doesn't say anything about previous AFDs it only talks about previous PRODs! So, either this has been a misunderstanding among admins reviewing AFDs, or I misunderstood the warning I was given on my talk page or I am missing some nuances in the policy about Soft Deletion that might be on another policy page. Since I know I'm not the only admin who has this understanding of Soft Deletion, this might warrant a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Deletion process.
If I (or we) have had an incorrect understanding of this policy, it likely means that some articles were deleted that might have been eligible for Soft Deletion. But since this deletion option is only used by a few admins who patrol AFDs (most admins just use "Delete"), then I'm not sure how much this misunderstanding has affected the results of past AFDs. But I really appreciate you raising this question and prompting me to review the policy once again. I hope for some future clarity on this subject and will avoid making statements about the eligibility of articles at AFD for Soft Deletion unless I can see they have been PROD'd before. Liz Read! Talk! 01:20, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
Bagumba, I was writing and rewriting my statement (above) before I saw your recent comment which echoes what I saw when I read through the WP:NOQUORUM policy. The policy doesn't mention XFDs, only declined PRODs. Liz Read! Talk! 01:22, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for the background. I'm not pushing for a soft delete (at this point), and wasnt that familiar with the process either, so my question was merely to educate myself. Regards. —Bagumba (talk) 01:30, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
I looked at the previous feedback that you mentioned. Perphaps they were referring to a previous AfD that was a "Keep" precluding a subsequent soft delete. That seems fair, though it doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere. In the case of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cavaliers–Celtics rivalry (2nd nomination), the earlier AfD was closed as "delete". Thanks again for the explanation. Regards. —Bagumba (talk) 05:58, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
Hello, again, Bagumba,
Two things. I've removed all of my comments about Soft Deletion that I've come across where I made that recommendation based on a previous AFD. I won't write that again until this gets straightened out.
Second, I kept thinking, "This isn't just me! I've seen other admins in similar situations leave this comment." But it's just that most admins do not bother to relist discussions so it's those few of us who do relist who would put that recommendation in there in the relisting statement. Also, this understanding might have come from the the policy saying to treat the article of a the poorly attended AFD discussion AS IF it were a PROD and a PROD would not be valid if there had been a previous AFD on the article. In this way, with a previous AFD on an article, you couldn't treat it as a PROD, so Soft Deletion is not possible. But while I think this is how this conclusion was arrived at, the policy should spell it out more clearly and I think it warrants bringing it up at Wikipedia talk:Deletion process. Does this make some sense to you? Liz Read! Talk! 06:06, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
Yeah, I can see how we all got here. If prior AfDs are a consideration, I do think it would be clearer to mention at NOQUORUM, along with the existing declined PROD verbiage. And I do appreciate the rare times a fellow admin leaves any explanation at an XfD, so hopefully I havent discourage you. Best. —Bagumba (talk) 06:35, 7 July 2022 (UTC)



Draft:Bitay Can you review the page? Captain388 (talk) 09:59, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Captain388,
I'm not an AFC reviewer, I don't review drafts. If you have questions about the AFC review process, either contact the editor who previously reviewed your draft or bring your questions to the AFC Help Desk. If you have questions about article creation or editing on Wikipedia, you are welcome to come to the the Teahouse where experienced editors can offer you advice and support. Good luck! Liz Read! Talk! 00:41, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

St. Vincent Grammar SchoolEdit

Hi Liz, could you undelete this article to my userspace? It was an expired PROD. Joofjoof (talk) 00:21, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Joofjoof,
  Done I've restored it to User:Joofjoof/St. Vincent Grammar School. Liz Read! Talk! 00:36, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Sini Sadanand Shetty was moved to mainspaceEdit

Just thought you might want to know Sini Sadanand Shetty, which you draftified yesterday, was moved to mainspace today. Honestly I'm not sure whether it was ready. It's pretty hard on the eyes, but at least it has some references now. However you did tell the editor who moved it to use AFC. ☆ Bri (talk) 05:19, 6 July 2022 (UTC)v

Hello, Bri,
Thanks for letting me know. This article was actually moved to Draft space 3 times. I think articles about beauty show contestants are not valuable content for Wikipedia but there are others who think they do have some notability. I tell all new editors to use AFC but most don't take my advice when they can just move their articles right into main space. They don't realize how active our page patrollers are and how vulnerable new articles are to speedy deletion tagging. I'd say PROD this article but the page creator is likely to just remove the tag. Sigh. Liz Read! Talk! 05:24, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
Sometimes established editors de-PROD BLP1E beauty queen articles, too [6]. Double sigh. ☆ Bri (talk) 05:30, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Sutlej Reformed Church of PakistanEdit

Hello @Liz ! You quickly deleted the article Sutlej Reformed Church of Pakistan as it was marked as similar to the article previously created about this denomination. However, the article I created is completely different from the previous one. I showed independent sources, wrote impartially and showed the notoriety of the religious denomination, even mentioning news about it on various websites. Therefore, I would like to ask you to reconsider and compare the article I created with the previous one (which I don't know who created it) and you will see that, although on the same topic, they are completely different. Thank you very much in advance! Daniel Silva Mendanha (talk) 16:29, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Daniel Silva Mendanha,
Sorry for my delay in seeing your message and responding. I think the best strategy now is if I restore the article to Draft space and you submit it for review by Articles for Creation. Even if the articles are dissimilar, if you were to put it directly back into main space, it will be tagged for deletion again. Approval by an AFC reviewer is the only way I know to overcome a previous AFD delete decision. Does this sound acceptable to you? Liz Read! Talk! 02:37, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
Hello @Liz! OK. I will do it this way. Thank you for your help. Daniel Silva Mendanha (talk) 22:00, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Peter Jüni article, page protectionEdit

Days after the page protection you provided expired, IP vandalism is back. Considering the extent to which COVID-19 themed articles seem to be a vandalism magnet, I wonder if you'd consider re-adding a protection and for a longer amount of time? I've seen this with another article and it's always IP addresses. All the best, CT55555 (talk) 20:36, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, CT55555,
Well, protection ended on June 27th and there has been one IP edit over the past 12 days. I think I'd need to see more active vandalism before protecting the article again. Please let me know if vandalism resumes. Liz Read! Talk! 02:34, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
That is understood. I'll give you a ping if the rate increases. Thanks. CT55555 (talk) 05:52, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
I don't want to overstate it, but two more incidences of vandalism at this COVID19 related BLP Peter Jüni by an IP today. Of course, it's not overwhelming, I only mentioned this because I assume COVID19 related vandalism will be around for a while and it's a BLP. CT55555 (talk) 18:04, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – July 2022Edit

News and updates for administrators from the past month (June 2022).

  Technical news

  • user_global_editcount is a new variable that can be used in abuse filters to avoid affecting globally active users. (T130439)



  • The New Pages Patrol queue has around 10,000 articles to be reviewed. As all administrators have the patrol right, please consider helping out. The queue is here. For further information on the state of the project, see the latest NPP newsletter.

Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:29, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Deschamps, Guillaume-Rey, Hauran SanjakEdit

Hi Liz!

As you have warned us, old messages move up the page and you lose track of them - so here are Huldra's and my own issues left over from above.

Paul Deschamps, Emmanuel Guillaume-Rey, and Hauran Sanjak are notable topics, deserving articles.

Any way of allowing us to access again the deleted material, to use for a fresh restart, would be welcome. I was offering for instance for you to dump onto my talk-page whatever Alas2022 had already written, and I'll take it from there, together with Huldra. She was very interested in redoing Guillaume-Rey and the Hauran Sanjak, I fully support her on those and I'll try to lend a hand if needed. You offered as an option to pull out the references from the deleted pages, put them on a new draft page and we would write a new article from scratch. Also fine. Scavanging already made formulations is easier, but the references are also a start.

Thank you!

PS: Paul Deschamps has a nice Wiki article in French, and shorter ones in Polish, Arabic, and Azeri.
Emmanuel Guillaume-Rey - a large one in French and one in Hebrew.
Hauran Sanjak - it has red links at Hauran, and mentions at Sanjak of Damascus and another 43 (!) articles. Arminden (talk) 20:21, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

  • Support, Support, Support User:Arminden's request! Also, far more than 43 articles point to Hauran Sanjak, when we also include the different re-dirs (I think there were at least a dozen re-dirs), cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:22, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
Hello, Arminden and Huldra,
Thanking you for bringing my attention to messages that have climbed up my user talk page. Before I consider taking action, have you tried contacting, Sir Sputnik, the administrator who actually deleted these articles? Most admins are reluctant to contradict another admin's decisions unless, for some reason, they are unresponsive. I know of a couple of admins who have a personal policy of not restoring deleted content or providing it to editors via email but the first step in these cases is always to contact the admin involved in a deletion or block. Maybe Sir Sputnik will see the ping and respond here. Liz Read! Talk! 01:57, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
Hi Liz,
I wouldn't even know how to figure out who deleted what (no article => no edit history, so...). Thank you therefore for pinging Sir Sputnik and pointing him out to us! I'm confident that Wikipedia's only raison d'être is to inform the user, everything else is important but secondary, so done work by blocked editors, especially when they're not guilty of major transgressions (hate, vandalism, verbal violence, you name it) or of being utterly brainless, but rather of technical misdemeanors, should be available to be carefully "quarried" by experienced colleagues. What if I did have the idea of copying the content while it was still posted? Maybe it's even out there, via the WayBackMachine? This shouldn't be a contest over who has the better material recovery skills, or is pedantic enough as to store on his hard disk all articles he cares for. It's a bit like putting the cookie jar on the highest shelf in the kindergarten kitchen :) Just my opinion on it, sorry for clogging your page with it. Have a great day! Arminden (talk) 09:31, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
Please be mindful of the rules on WP:FORUMSHOPPING, given that Huldra has already made this same request to User:Ponyo, who declined to restore the pages in question. I see no reason to overturn that decision. WP:G5 unambiguously applies to all of them. If you think the subjects are notable, you're more than welcome to recreate them in your own words, but restoring them would not be appropriate. Sir Sputnik (talk) 18:53, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
Sir Sputnik, hi. First, I've asked for access to the Paul Deschamps material on my own behalf. I have often come across the name Emmanuel Guillaume-Rey and the term Hauran Sanjak in my work, so when I saw them mentioned here, I supported Huldra's call for receiving access to the removed material. Again, on my own behalf.
Second, as I have written here-above, Wikipedia's only raison d'être is to inform the user, everything else might sometimes be important, but is always secondary. There's too much bureaucracy out there, why introduce it here too? The removal is based, as far as I can tell, on technicalities, not on the quality of the work itself or on anyone's serious moral transgressions.
Third, of course we can play Sisyphus and start everything from scratch, but that's ridiculous, given the above. We're perfectly capable to reword the material, but there's quite some research & other effort that went into putting it together - why waste what's good in it?
I'm often "escaping" onto Wikipedia from a more boring, scaringly irrational, stiff and bureaucratic "real" world. Let's not let that world spill into this one and spoil it. Not more than it already has. Your chosen name speaks of aristocracy and respect, the skies, and of a "fellow traveller"; that gives me hope. Thank you, Arminden (talk) 20:17, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
As regards to WP:FORUMSHOPPING, I asked Ponyo, as they were the blocking admin. After that, I happened to see that Armiden (who edits in the same area as I do), had asked here, wrt some other articles (Bardawil, Deschamps), and supported him. Here I agree with Armiden (and we two do not always agree!); please don't let bureaucracy come in the way of improving Wikipedia, thanks, Huldra (talk) 22:29, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
You've seen this request declined twice now. Making the same arguments again is not going to change anything. In case I didn't make my position clear in my previous comment, I will not be restoring these pages. Sir Sputnik (talk) 16:49, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Need some clarity..Edit

Hi, Liz i am newbie here.

My article again moved to draft space. In the article talk page i added Class=Start [7] Part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Assessment According to WikiProject_Film/Assessment Quality_scale [8] it should be in main space right. why the article move to draft space Redirect also criteria for speedy deletion CSD R2 Process. This is happening because I add Class=Start instead of Class=stub. Neu84321(talk) 18:07, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Neu84321,
I'm almost absolutely sure that the move of the article to Draft space has absolutely nothing to do with whatever the content is on the article talk page. Experienced editors will move recently created articles to Draft space if they think they are likely to be tagged for speedy deletion. They are actually trying to preserve the article by allowing you to work on it in Draft space where it is much less likely to be deleted.
You are free to move the page back to main space but I think you should consider the chances that it might then tagged for speedy deletion after it's moved back. Ordinarily, I encourage editors to work on drafts in Draft or User space and submit them to AFC reviewers. AFC reviews are supposed to point out any potential problems in the draft that could lead to its deletion. Approval by an AFC reviewer greatly lessens the chance that the page will be deleted.
Whatever you choose to do, it would be smart to make a copy of the article in case it does get tagged for deletion, so you don't have start again from scratch. Good luck. Liz Read! Talk! 04:54, 11 July 2022 (UTC)


Kindly rescue my userpage. --Abdullah(Talk) 05:15, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, MdaNoman,
You requested that this page be deleted! If you have changed your mind, I recommend requesting its restoration at WP:REFUND. Liz Read! Talk! 05:18, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Draft:Mohan Babu G NEdit

Hi! I noticed that you removed the speedy delete tag from Draft:Mohan Babu G N. Please see User:CANIGET. Thanks! VV 18:12, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, VV,
I look at the reason for their block and whether they are blocked for sockpuppetry and if there is a linked SPI case. In this case, neither of those is present. However, their User page now indicates that they are a sockpuppet so I wouldn't remove that tag now. But I look for confirmation of sockpuppetry. If an editor has been blocked for being disruptive or for CIR reasons, that doesn't mean that their page creations should be deleted. CSD G5 is specifically for block evading editors so even just being a recently discovered multiple account doesn't matter if the sockpuppeteer wasn't evading a block at the time. I've had many discussions about this speedy deletion criteria on this user talk page and asked Checkusers to confirm my understanding which they have. But it often happens that the checkusers know an editor is a sockpuppet by their style of editing but can't identify the sockmaster. These are more complicated situations. Liz Read! Talk! 22:53, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Technical question(s)Edit

Hi Liz, and sorry for bothering again.

A last attempt. Sir Sputnik seems impervious to my arguments, nor does he bother to read what I'm saying or even answer on a minimal level - I'm not Huldra, duh; and I don't want anything restored, just access to that material in order to quarry it for new articles. Lost case, basta. Now it's a strictly technical question, and I'm generally not interested in putting much time and effort into studying "Wiki sciences" beyond what's strictly needed for posting useful info for the user. So, is there a straightforward way of accessing material from deleted articles? Who has that privilege? I'm strictly not interested in being a Wiki "clerk" of any kind, but if accepting the invitation to join some lofty "ranks" offers me that tool, I'll take it (I'm old enough around here to get all kinds of invitations I'm otherwise discarding). The long march through the institutions, needed once they go bureaucratic and ego-driven. Thank you for your huge patience and advice, Arminden (talk) 07:55, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Arminden,
I need to respond with everyone's least favorite answer: It depends. It depends on a) the reason for deletion, b) the attitude of the administrator who did the page deletion and c) the attitude of the administrator you ask for help. Some administrators will restore a deleted article to Draft space or User space like your Sandbox. Or they will agree to email you the content or at least the references used in the article.
What admins you might go to for help don't want to see is if they restore the content elsewhere on Wikipedia or through an email, copied and pasted back into main space. It can get the admin and the editor in hot water if the new article is just a copy of a deleted article, especially the deleted work of a sockpuppet.
Does this answer your question? I'll also say that once Sir Sputnik started replying to the discussion, I took a step back so if you could let me know, again, which article(s) you are interested in, I'll look into the deleted content and see what's there. Liz Read! Talk! 16:26, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
I see I didn't answer your fundamental question about who can see deleted content. Unfortunately, that is only administrators. If I could change one thing about Wikipedia, it would be to allow all editors to view their deleted contributions because editors are not always notified when pages/articles they created are deleted and I think they should be able to see what pages that they have worked on have been deleted and why. But a) I don't know if this is even technically possible and b) I'm now sure this idea would have enough widespread support to change current policy. Liz Read! Talk! 16:30, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Deletion - Reinhold O. SchmidtEdit

I added a 3rd-party source (Jerome Clark's UFO Encyclopedia) to this source, and came back to add another (James R. Lewis's UFOs and Popular Culture) but found it had already been deleted. Can it be restored so I can continue cleaning it up? SecretTerrorAmongUs (talk) 11:45, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, SecretTerrorAmongUs,
Reinhold O. Schmidt was deleted as a Proposed deletion and can be restored upon request. Is this what you are asking for?
Just as a head's up, many PRODs that are restored are then nominated for AFD deletion later. If the article gets deleted through an AFD, it can not be easily restored after that. But it would give you time to improve the content and make a copy of any reference sources that exist so you could work on a future version of an article. Of course, it might not be nominated for an AFD but I just want to let you know that it can happen. Liz Read! Talk! 16:16, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
Yes, that's what I'm asking for-- thank you, and thanks also for the information on the AFD process. SecretTerrorAmongUs (talk) 20:55, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
Hello, SecretTerrorAmongUs,
  Done Some requests are easier than others! Liz Read! Talk! 01:51, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
Excellent-- Thanks! SecretTerrorAmongUs (talk) 17:36, 18 July 2022 (UTC)


Hello Liz, I hope you are well. I wanted to thank you again for the message you left on my talk page, I am really looking forward to emailing other editors! One question I wanted to ask, if I email another user, will my email address be visible? The one I have linked to this account is my personal one and it includes my full name, which I don’t want people on here knowing. Many thanks, Blanchey 💬📝 15:36, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Blanchey,
Here's how I understand the system: If you use the "Email this user" link on the left-side menu, your email address isn't visible. But if the person you emailed responds directly to your email, then their email address will be visible to you. And if you directly reply to their email, instead of going through Wikipedia's email links, then your address will be visible to them. So, if you don't have email chain messages and only use Wikipedia's "Email this user" links, your email address won't be visible to the receiver. It's a little clumsy but unless you trust the editor who emailed you, I wouldn't respond directly to any email you get from another Wikipedia editor, especially editors you don't know well or unexpected email messages. I hope this makes things a bit clearer. Liz Read! Talk! 16:10, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
Thank you, Liz.   Blanchey 💬📝 16:18, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Merge HelpEdit

Since no content will be merged, just the sources... same rules to provide attribution as normal copying from one wiki page to another and then set redirect with history? Slywriter (talk) 23:06, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Slywriter,
I think I know which AFD you are talking about. Who does this merging? It seems like some solutions proposed in a few AFDs go beyond what should be expected of discussion closers. Liz Read! Talk! 23:18, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
Agree on unreasonable expectations for closers and not looking for you to do so. Ill take ownership since I started the AfD on Wii streaming, just want to make sure I do it right. Slywriter (talk) 23:29, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Illusion (Aespa song)Edit

You moved the article on this song from draft space to article space. I have two questions. First, the article was previously deleted and cut down to a redirect. Did you verify that the current version of the article establishes song notability? I am assuming that the answer is yes. Second, however, the draft had been submitted to AFC for review. You moved the draft to article space with the Move command, leaving it tagged as submitted for review in article space, and I am cleaning it up. Was there a specific reason why you chose to move it to article space rather than waiting for a reviewer to use the script to move it to article space, or rather than asking a reviewer to use the script to move it to article space and perform related cleanup? If there was a reason why you decided to move it immediately to article space, then we thank you and are glad to finish the cleanup. If you forgot that the AFC script performs various cleanup tasks, then we all make mistakes. Was there a reason why you moved it to article space rather than letting a reviewer do that? Robert McClenon (talk) 04:15, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Robert McClenon,
You ask a lot of questions. The simple answer is that this move was requested by User:VersaceSpace, an editor who I have worked with in the past and who I trust, and they were making what I saw as a valid request. I move a lot of drafts to main space that are requested as CSD G6 page deletions and page moves, there are requests to do this every day. Not every editor who works in AFC has the complicated move system like you did, where you, for some reason, move drafts to your User space before moving them to main space. Why do you do this, by the way? You're the only editor I've encountered who works like that.
Any way, I respond to requests like this every day and base my decision on who is requesting the page move and whether or not I think they are an experienced editor making a legitimate request. If I made a mistake, I'm happy to move it back to Draft space right now and restore the redirect. Liz Read! Talk! 04:27, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
Liz, I really appreciate your validation. You're an editor who I have extremely high levels of respect for, so the fact that you hold a degree of trust in me means the utmost. Thanks —VersaceSpace 🌃 04:36, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
User:Liz - I am satisfied that User:VersaceSpace reviewed the draft and found that the issues in the AFD had been satisfied. It looked to me as though they probably had been satisfied, but I wasn't reviewing, but relying first on your judgment, then on VersaceSpace. It now belongs in article space, where it is. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:50, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
User:VersaceSpace - On the one hand, I invite you to become an AFC reviewer, even if you only seldom plan to use the script. On the other hand, if you want a draft moved to article space that is in review, we will be glad to respond to a request at the AFC talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:50, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
@Robert McClenon: I do have the reviewer script, but I'll take your second piece of advice into account the next time I face a similar dilemma. —VersaceSpace 🌃 05:57, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
User:Liz - I don't think that I have ever moved a draft to my user space and then accepted it. What I have done and do is to use my user space as the temporary location in a round-robin move or page swap. A page swap necessarily involves a third location, and those often cause confusion; there is no right way to do page swaps. I also previously used user space in the case where a redirect with minor history blocked draft acceptance. I moved the redirect into my user space and tagged it for G6. Because this caused confusion, I now instead move the redirect into draft space with a number after it, and tag it as {{moved}}. I can explain this further the next time that I do one of these moves. But I only accept a draft from draft space. The complicated moves involve moving redirects and things into user space and out into draft space. Thank you. I hope that this either answers your questions or can be followed up with another question. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:32, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
User:VersaceSpace - If the problem was that the title was occupied by a redirect, then you can tag the title with {{db-afc-move}}, which requests that a reviewer delete the redirect so that you can use the acceptance script. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:36, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
@Liz: I am Hatto, who also contributed to User talk:Liz#Draft:Illusion (Aespa song). I am Japanese and not a native English speaker, so I am struggling with the English correspondence from you, @Robert McClenon: and @VersaceSpace: while using DeepL Translator. However, after reading the Japanese translation by DeepL, I'm not sure what the reason is for not being able to move the draft article to mainspace. I'm so sorry, can you please explain to me why it cannot be moved to mainspace in a way that is more understandable even to a non-native English speaker like myself? --Hatto (talk) 13:42, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ruth JoffreEdit

Hi Liz, I'm writing to follow up on your close of this AfD, because based on the revisions to the article that happened during the discussion, I am wondering about the policy basis for your close. I am also requesting a relist so discussion can continue, based on how much the circumstances changed during the discussion, e.g. the creation of the book article for the debut collection of short stories by the author, and the author article now being mostly based on primary and nonindepedent sources. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 14:09, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Beccaynr,
I didn't see this as a controversial decision but will reverse my action and relist this discussion and let another admin handle the closure. Liz Read! Talk! 00:46, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
Thank you Liz - my concern is with how WP:NOT policy applies, and specifically WP:PROMO, based on the existence of the book article and the sources currently available to support a BLP per WP:NAUTHOR or WP:BASIC. Thanks again, Beccaynr (talk) 01:15, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

SPI queryEdit

Hello Liz, I was doing a bit of sleuthing regarding possible sockpuppetry/UPE when I came across some comments you made about User:Gingie11 roughly a month ago, now in a talk archive here. Due to deleted articles/contribs I'm not able to glean much about what happened back there; do you remember what that was about?

I'm asking because we've got Mandla Lamba right now which was first created by User:Lamieni55 and then expanded and moved back to mainspace by User:Lamini12 after a draftification. L55 and L12 have similar names and edit summary wording tics; the accounts were created around the same time, then did just barely enough to attain autoconfirmed before creating/moving Mandla Lamba. Gingie11 showed up to defend the article when it got AfD'd and also made a small edit. The article was a whitewashing of the subject (see this rev) so I rewrote it using sources uncovered in the AfD discussion; this triggered G11 to try to restore the article to some "desired" version by undoing edits individually (as opposed to making a single revert). After G11 got a 31hr block for disruptive editing, L12 took over and performed 3 more undos before stopping.

Do you think that's sufficient evidence for SPI? I'm also curious about the Ginginie11 connection you mentioned and wonder if these could be undetected sleepers from then.

Thanks, 2406:3003:2077:1E60:C998:20C6:8CCF:5730 (talk) 21:49, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, 2406:3003:2077:1E60:C998:20C6:8CCF:5730 ,
Actually, the way today is going, I don't feel like diving back into a new SPI investigation. I just filed another case this morning about some other sockpuppets. I'm sorry not to be of more help but I would encourage you, if there is an existing SPI case, to file a new report. The checkusers can only tell you "No" so I don't see it as a big risk. Just be sure that you are talking about registered accounts, not IP accounts, because they won't link IP accounts to existing sockpuppets accounts. I can see why you are suspicious about this situation but, right now, it's not something I want to take on myself. Checkusers are usually great about being direct about what they can and what they can't do. The only frustration is that there are always so many open SPI cases that it can take a while to get attention on the one you have opened. Good luck! Liz Read! Talk! 00:53, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
No worries, I'll take care of it — sorry if it came across like I was expecting you to take action. Was just hoping for any additional info that might help strengthen the case. Regardless, those remarks you made back in June are already helpful to suggest a connection with previous cases rather than a fresh case, so thanks for leaving that trail. Appreciate the advice and encouragement too. Oh, and thanks also for interrupting a G13 streak to check things out and weigh in on that AfD, I really appreciate that! — 2406:3003:2077:1E60:C998:20C6:8CCF:5730 (talk) 12:31, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
Hello again, just a courtesy status update: the SPI went smoothly and your suspicions about the user being associated with the previous case turned out to be correct. — 2406:3003:2077:1E60:C998:20C6:8CCF:5730 (talk) 03:42, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!Edit

  The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
Thank you for your good work! Andrevan@ 05:11, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
Hello, Andrevan,
Thanks. Any appreciation really gets you through the day. Many thanks. Liz Read! Talk! 00:37, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

"Attack article"Edit

The article I wrote on Dan Nainan was in no way an "attack article" - everything in it was properly sourced and it shouldn't have been speedily deleted. If there was a problem with the tone or whatever of the article, that could have easily been adjusted, but I didn't add anything that wasn't written about in reliable sources. Wasn't the problem really that everything was actually perfectly sourced and that it therefore was nothing to improve on? R2-tango (talk) 05:23, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

I would like to request the article as I wrote it is reinstated - if there was any part that was indeed problematic, it can be removed. But you would owe me an explanation of why any specific part (all supported by reliable sources) should be removed.R2-tango (talk) 05:31, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
Hello, R2-tango,
I have never deleted Dan Nainan so I don't know why you have come to my talk page, I just handled the draft version. This article was deleted via Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dan Nainan so would be unlikely to have survived in main space of the project. Liz Read! Talk! 00:35, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Indeed you did, or at least that's what you claimed on my Talk page.R2-tango (talk) 17:56, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Song of the Cane FieldsEdit

Hello. I really hate to ask this (so just tell me it's too late if it is), but is there any way I could still submit further sourcing for [[Song of the Cane Fields]]? Following extensive searching, I was just about to vote "delete" in line with the others, when I realized that one of the sources already cited on the page was a Japanese American newspaper review which might count toward notability (which was very poorly formatted as a reference): The North American Post. I then changed my search parameters and found the TV movie cited in this book: [2]. It caused me to want to search some more, but I had to leave for dinner and came back and the article has been deleted. Thanks in advance for your consideration and for all your ongoing work with AfDs. Cielquiparle (talk) 20:50, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Cielquiparle,
You didn't link to the AFD discussion you are concerned about so I'm not sure how to evaluate your comment. If the discussion was a Soft Deletion, you can request a restoration at WP:REFUND. It the discussion closed as "Delete" you can recreate a Draft version of the article and submit it to AFC, this is the only way I know to overcome an AFD deletion decision. After an AFD discussion has closed, there is really no point in presenting additional arguments, the discussion has been closed and few of them are reopened to hear additional arguments. You just have to start an article knowing that the article has been deleted in the main space of the project and any recreation will be tagged for CSD G4 deletion. That's why we encourage editors to create new versions in Draft space where they are unlikely to be tagged for speedy deletion. Liz Read! Talk! 00:30, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for the explanation. Here it is: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Song of the Canefields and I see now it is a soft delete so it could be reversed or refunded. Is there a time limit on reversing or refunding, or is it indefinite? Cielquiparle (talk) 04:01, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
Also... Is there any way to find out the name of the page creator, so I could just leave them a message with the coverage found so far, and what they would probably need to find and demonstrate in order to have the page accepted and kept in the future? (Actually I know who the nominator is, so I guess I could ask them.) Cielquiparle (talk) 04:12, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
Hello, Cielquiparle,
There is no expiration date for requesting a REFUND although I don't think that is stated anywhere. I've regularly seen editors come back for drafts that were deleted in 2019 or 2017. I don't spend as much time there as I used to since there is a great group of admins now who regularly respond to requests but I think the oldest draft I saw requested was from 2012. The page creator and primary contributor to Song of the Canefields is editor CyannaLocke. I hope this helps. Liz Read! Talk! 22:00, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

ISO 15706-2 merge questionEdit

Hi Liz! Hope you are doing well. I had a question about the reverted edits on ISO 15706-2 - saw that the consensus of the AfD was to merge with the larger International Standard Audiovisual Number article, which I had done. I'm confused about what the process would be for the ISO 15706-2 article then - would we not remove it and/or add a redirect to the ISAN page? I haven't done many of them so I apologize if I've missed something. I'm just confused about the combination of reverting a merged page but then adding a tag that it needs to be merged because, at least as well as I know how to (which is no guarantee of quality), this has already happened. I tried to follow the 'so you're going to merge these pages' guidelines in context but if I messed something up, please let me know and I'll fix it for this page! I'd really like this to be a learning experience for the future. All the best, Kazamzam (talk) 23:19, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Kazamzam,
I'm no expert on merging articles. I just closed the AFD discusion after reading through the comments in the discussion. I can just point you to Wikipedia:Merging as a resource. I'm not happy with AFD results that leave the outcome to anyone who wants to follow through and take action but that's what I summarized people wanted. You might also find some help at the Teahouse. Liz Read! Talk! 00:24, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Deletion review for Market WatchEdit

An editor has asked for a deletion review of Market Watch. Because you closed the deletion discussion for this page, speedily deleted it, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the deletion review. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:00, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Muboshgu,
Thanks, kind of, for letting me know. That is my least favorite page on the entire project. It's where I am typically told I'm a terrible admin....but I think I made the right call in this AFD since no one was advocating "Keep". I appreciate the notice. Liz Read! Talk! 19:28, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
Gotta love the anonymity that the Internet provides to trolls. I agree with your decision as well. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:08, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Deleted article Tariq Hilal Al BarwaniEdit

Hello Liz, I've noticed you deleted the article from Wikipedia which was available for about 3 years ago. How can we review and enhance the same ? Kindly advise TerryWiki12 (talk) 02:20, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, TerryWiki12,
The deletion was based on this AFD discussion, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tariq Hilal Al Barwani. It has been deleted. You are free to start a new version of this article in Draft space, addressing the problems brought up in the AFD, and submitting it to AFC for review and approval.
If you have questions about Wikipedia's policies or its deletion processes, please bring them to the Teahouse. Good luck! Liz Read! Talk! 02:25, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello Liz, I respect your kind response. The bases shared on the article are weak especially the notability. Could you please share the archive of the content in order to review and enhance? TerryWiki12 (talk) 02:31, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm sorry but the article, and its content, have been deleted. However, I don't do this often but I will reopen the AFD discussion and relist it for another week. Maybe another admin will come to a different decision than I did. Liz Read! Talk! 02:36, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello Liz, I respect your professionalism and action. Thank you. What I found a bit strange is how come an article with notability of over 3 years was deleted now. Would you kindly assist on what can be done to ensure it remains? Thanks once again TerryWiki12 (talk) 02:45, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, TerryWiki12,
Unfortunately, I can't guarantee that about any article on the project and we have some articles that are 21 years old. Any article can be tagged for deletion. We have three forms of deletion, Speedy deletion for obvious cases, Proposed deletion for cases that are seen as uncontroversial and Articles for Deletion where the merits or flaws of an article are discussed for at least a week. It was the last form of deletion that involved the article you are concerned about. I'd read over the comments made in the AFD discussion and try to address them. I think the general feeling was that the article was promotional and looked like a LinkedIn page. So, if you could make it more balanced and less like personal branding, that might help. Liz Read! Talk! 02:51, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Big thank you. Your feedback is valuable and will be action. I appreciate your support. TerryWiki12 (talk) 02:59, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello Liz, may I kindly ask you to review the page again? It seems despite votes for keeping it & working on enhancing the page, there are trolls that want it removed. It is notable personality and you may personally do a search online in both English & other languages where you will find legitimate sources. I kindly request you review as number of delete may bypass keep without proper consensus. Sorry to trouble you TerryWiki12 (talk) 17:04, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Check article.Edit

Hello @Liz.

according to your message on Randykitty's talk page (here "I'm cleaning up all of the broken redirects to this article and it doesn't look like your typical promotional article. He seems to have done a lot of newsworthy stuff in his life. Liz 22:57, 16 July 2022 (UTC)",

I think the article's subject is notable enough (according to references). I can improve and re-write it to solve the problems to serve as an encyclopedia article.
He was on the front page of 2 newspapers in Iran (Shargh &...) just 2days ago (16 July) because of his activity against Internet censorship in Iran.
(link is here: one of 4 people on the left side).
He also has interviews with the Los angles times, Deutsche Welle, and many Iranian newspapers and news agencies and presents more than 100 episodes of the Charkh talk show on Iran's national tv.
(additional info: This article was created and reviewed by the AFC process.).

Randykitty (the admin who deletes this article), wrote you this message:

"Hi Liz, if you think deletion as G11 was not warranted then feel free to restore the article. --Randykitty 06:19, 17 July 2022 (UTC)"

could you please review this article again and restore it if possible? I'll try to add more references and re-write the main sections to improve them. KidsOnTheMoon (talk) 03:38, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, KidsOnTheMoon,
Well, I guess I got myself involved in this by expressing an opinion. Yes, I'll restore this article but move it to Draft space. I know you say it's been approved by an AFC reviewer already but I think you should submit it again. I think if you move it directly into main space again, I think it will get tagged for deletion again. This article apparently has been deleted repeatedly so you have that to overcome. Continue to work on it, improving the draft, try to make it less like advertising, submit it to AFC and do not be in a hurry to move it into main space. That's my advice to you. Liz Read! Talk! 03:46, 19 July 2022 (UTC)


Hi, no worries on that. Ideally at least a dozen people would turn out at an AFD and give a strong consensus. I can't fault you for wanting more editorial input, but I thought it was clear the way it was headed. Hope you're enjoying the summer! ♦ Dr. Blofeld 06:27, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Dr. Blofeld,
You know, I thought I had gone through the worst of it with my RfA 7 years ago but I had my first visit to Deletion Review in January and have found trips there to be equally unpleasant. And to think, when I was a new editor back in 2013, I used to hang out a lot on noticeboards, what was I thinking? They are frequently forums where people go to attack each other. So, I try to focus on the work, follow policy and if I'm unsure about my decisions, I leave it for another admin to weigh in. Sometimes they agree with what I was going to do, sometimes they don't, in either case, I think a second opinion (or sometimes a little more time) is useful to determining consensus.
I try to stay out of these delete vs. keep ideological battles but I must say that the folks advocating for deletion are much more persistent and dogged than those requesting that articles be kept. I wonder where that passion comes from, to wipe Wikipedia clean of whole categories of articles deemed unworthy. Aside from copyright violations, those that violate BLP guidelines and those that are blatant advertising, I guess I have a more "Live and let live" attitude. It's a big project, big enough to have articles on all types of subjects from 9th century French monks to Arabic poetry to villages in Vietnam to Roman battles to rivers in Brazil to World War II tanks to little seen silent movies. I think the amazing thing is that in 21 years, we've had volunteers interested enough in subjects like these to compose referenced articles on them. And this has benefitted the whole world, or, at least, anyone who has an internet connection. And while there are still plenty of mistakes that need correcting, that is pretty damn amazing. Thank you for the big part you have played in Wikipedia's development. Liz Read! Talk! 18:21, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Why relist this article?Edit

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Modo (software) (2nd nomination) has the nominator wanting to delete it, and all three of the others participating saying it passes the general notability guidelines, listing references to prove that, and saying to keep it. No one has posted in a week now. Why extend the discussion another week when consensus is clear and there is no ongoing discussions? Dream Focus 21:44, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Dream Focus,
I don't remember exactly what I was thinking when I decided to relist this AFD discussion. Maybe I didn't find the Keep opinions very convincing, I'll have to reexamine that discussion. And I have an appointment starting in 3 minutes so I'll look it over when I'm out of that and back on Wikipedia. Sound good? Liz Read! Talk! 21:57, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
Hello, Dream Focus,
Okay, I've reviewed the AFD again. I think I relisted this discussion because there had been no improvement in the article since the day it was nominated and the deletion rationale presented by MrsSnoozyTurtle still seemed valid. Almost the entire article is unsourced and, honestly, it reads like the company's website page on how this product was developed, not an encyclopedia article.
I realize my own opinion isn't relevant to closing an AFD discussion but I thought I'd share it with you any way. Perhaps I should have left this discussion alone and not relisted it for another week but I was hoping to gain more participation from interested editors. At this point, I will leave this discussion for another administrator to close. If it is any consolation, some admins go look for relisted discussions to close before another week passes so you might get your preferred outcome sooner rather than later. I'm sorry you are disappointed in the decision I made to relist the discussion. Liz Read! Talk! 00:50, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Deleted article "Apache AGE"Edit

Hello Liz, I found my article was deleted and I don't understand reason due to I am new. I just would like to know what was wrong or what I needed to fix about it. Could you please let me know what was problem and what I could do to restore it if possible? Thank you Sellme4001 (talk) 00:14, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Sellme4001,
This article deletion shouldn't have been a surprise to you. You were informed about the AFD discussion, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Apache age, on your User talk page back on June 20th. I saw you participated there so you were aware that the article was nominated for deletion but you didn't really offer an argument on why the article should be kept.
Fortunately for you, there was little participation in this AFD discussion so I closed it as "Soft Delete". That means that you can request a restoration of the page if you go to WP:REFUND so you are able to get your article back and continue to work on it. Be aware that it can always be tagged for deletion again so you'd be smart to review the AFD discussion again to see why it was nominated in the first place and address those concerns. Good luck. Liz Read! Talk! 00:33, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Hello, Sellme4001. Like Liz, I am an administrator, and so I was able to read the deleted article. An acceptable Wikipedia article summarizes what reliable independent sources say about the topic. The deleted article had no references to independent sources. All the sources were directly connected to the topic of the article. Deletion was correct. If you want to try again, then you must use truly independent sources as the basis for writing the article. Cullen328 (talk) 00:51, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for offering your opinion, Cullen328. Liz Read! Talk! 01:05, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Hello, Cullen328. I appreciate for your explain about my question. If you don't mind I would like to ask an advice from you. I believe 'Global Newswire' was an independent source while all other references were managed by Apache software Foundation in my article. Please advice more specificcally what was independent source and what was not. I really don't want to make problem about article. Please give an advice. Thank you. Sellme4001 (talk) 00:33, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
Hello, Liz, Really appreciate for your answer. Now I got reason why my article was deleted from you and Cullen328's reply. I hope chance would be given to review again restored article looking forward once exactly I get how fix problems. Thanks again for your answers. Sellme4001 (talk) 00:37, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
Hello, Sellme4001,
I think you'll get a better response if you move this discussion to Cullen328's User talk page. I'm not sure how often they come by here. Liz Read! Talk! 00:38, 21 July 2022 (UTC)


I don't know if you had a look at my significantly cleaned up version before deleting. I see that the timeline of my edit and your deletion are same. Jay (talk) 02:04, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Jay,
No, I didn't see your edit. I have a habit of opening up pages in tabs and gradually going through them. It usually doesn't pose any problems but in this case, I restored the page. I thought the article was in pretty bad shape when I looked at it so I didn't remove the CSD tag. Liz Read! Talk! 02:08, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Thanks. It is still bad enough to be deleted, but I had just wanted to confirm if it was my version that you checked before deleting. Jay (talk) 02:12, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Ziaul Hoque PolashEdit

Hi Liz, just a note that Ziaul Hoque Polash has been created again under Ziaul Hoque Polash (Actor). Given it was created by a new user + all the COI, paid editing, block history, i tagged the article for speedy deletion. Thanks. -- আফতাবুজ্জামান (talk) 19:51, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, আফতাবুজ্জামান,
It looks like Star Mississippi already got to this page before I could. Thanks for tagging it. Liz Read! Talk! 00:36, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Regarding speedy deletion and transclusionsEdit

Thanks for the notice [9], I'll take extra care with this in the future. I do, however, have two questions.

One, could another workaround for cases like this be wrapping the speedy deletion tag in <noinclude>? And two, should I consider your message a declined speedy, so as not to go admin shopping? That malformed AfD is quite harmless; I only tagged it because it appeared to be obviously created in error, but otherwise I'm content to let it be. ComplexRational (talk) 01:53, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, ComplexRational,
Honestly, I don't know of a way to avoid a deletion tag being transcluded on a transcluded page. But you know, I always go to Village Pump - Technical when I have questions like this and it seems like there is always a person who can provide an answer. And people generally respond pretty fast so I'd give it a shot.
As for "admin-shopping", I don't think this would apply. Typically admin-shopping refers to going to one admin for special privileges or to restore a deleted article after another admin had refused requests like these. What I meant was, frequently, editors will have an admin or two who they go to with questions or problems and if you had an admin you had that kind of relationship with, it can be easier to ask them directly for help rather than going through regular channels when those channels are problematic. That's all. I didn't delete the page myself because I'm unsure if we delete project pages like this one when they are just mistakes. I hope this clarifies things. Liz Read! Talk! 02:02, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
(talk page stalker) Yes, wrapping in <noinclude> is exactly how to do it. Twinkle automatically does it in Template namespace actually (Cf. Diff/1099490774) Happy Editing--IAmChaos 02:06, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
Thanks so much, IAmChaos, I appreciate you sharing your technical knowledge. Liz Read! Talk! 02:10, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
Thanks Liz and IAmChaos for the quick and informative replies. I'll keep these points in mind, and in this specific case, I'll go ahead and re-tag as described. Cheers, ComplexRational (talk) 02:23, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Toilet talkEdit

I had pinged you at WP:Requests for undeletion#Toilet talk yesterday. Jay   07:02, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Indian Predator: The Butcher of DelhiEdit

Liz, would it make sense to move Indian Predator: The Butcher of Delhi to draft space for further work. Despite the abrasive tone, Morgankarki has done some improvements and I think it's close to acceptable. They pretty obviously copy-pasted sentences from sources (see my comment here) but it's a good starting point. Thanks. Ravensfire (talk) 16:48, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Ravensfire,
Well, I have a couple of concerns. You moved Indian Predator: The Butcher of Delhi to Draft space once and it was almost immediately moved back to main space. I also doubt that Morgankarki would work on a draft, with their attitude, they won't work in Draft space but will move the page back to main space where it could get tagged CSD G4. If they would just dial down their response, we could work something out but I'm not sure if they can compromise here. Liz Read! Talk! 17:00, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm right with you on that. I'm trying to think of a good option. It's probably overkill, but moving it to draft and move-protecting the draft, plus create the redirect again, and protect that. The draft can't be moved and the article title is protected. A blunt warning to Morgankari they need to work on the draft and go through the review process or they will be blocked and anything created at other titles deleted under G4. Annoying to have to do that much, I know. I'll spend some time working on the article. I know nothing about the topic, but my wife's gotten hooked on true-crime podcasts, so this is interesting to me. I guess an alternate would be to create a sandbox page with the version, work on it and if it looks good, use that for a DRV and then a history merge if accepted. That may be easier. Ravensfire (talk) 17:06, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
Oh boy, this gets more complicated as I look. The production section is individual sentences copy-pasted from various sources (but usually not from the source given for that sentence!). While the subject is notable, I don't think there's any chance this would have been accepted as a draft with what I've found. There's a lot of TLC needed here. I have started something in a sandbox User:Ravensfire/sandbox/Indian Predator: The Butcher of Delhi, but whichever route you think may be easier long-term works. Thanks for the help with the drama, appeciate it. Ravensfire (talk) 17:58, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
Hello, Ravensfire,
No need to thank me, you're doing all of the work with the content here! I just hope Morgankari will allow you to try to get the a draft version into an acceptable condition. I'm not sure if that means we have to lay some protection down on the redirect page in main space for a while. Liz Read! Talk! 18:03, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Morgankarki here! I am responding in concern with the draft page which I work.yesterday I revisited the article section (draft) and I find the content on the production heading probably copy pasted by another user(name I don't know because the page has been severe edited by me and the creator) he has just copied from the Indian news portal website The Hindu or The Indian express... That need to be cut. Other than that the article looks find. And, about the title I have already mentioned yesterday with you guys. Thanks Morgankarki (talk) 01:42, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

"Category:Taxa named by Barbara Gillian Briggs"Edit

Something wrong here - my head is spinning from going around in circles. Gderrin (talk) 01:42, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Civic SardiniaEdit

Hi Liz! I had CSD tagged Civic Sardinia because the author and sole editor of the page is topic-banned from Italian politics and I believe was banned prior to the page creation: User_talk:Scia_Della_Cometa#Topic_ban_and_partial_block. I agree the user is not a sock puppet (or at least hasn't been shown to be one). Apologies if a topic ban is not a valid CSD reason. Thanks for the heads up on the revert as to your thinking.49ersBelongInSanFrancisco (talk) 05:06, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Draft and article both existEdit

Hi Liz,

Sorry to bother you but I was hoping you could give me a bit of guidance. I've run into this a few times in the past week and I'm not quite sure what to do. Often times a user will submit their draft via the AfC wizard, it will get declined, and then they'll copy and paste the content to the article space anyways. Should I apply a deletion tag to either page? If so, which one would I apply and to which version? Hey man im josh (talk) 18:40, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Hey man im josh,
Actually, we have a nightly list of pages that have been moved from main space to Draft space (or the other way around) that is the "Draftification list" and I run into this a couple of times a night. I simply leave a Twinkle warning about cut & paste articles..use TW menu>Warn>Single issue notices>Cut & paste moves, Linked page field=Name of main space page. It's a pretty stern message and I think it makes an impression on new editors that we prefer them to move pages out of Draft space rather than cutting and pasting content back into main space. I don't tag the main space pages for deletion, although some page patrollers occasionally do this, because, typically, both the draft version and main version have only been edited by the page creator so the problem of attribution isn't present. As long as the same editor has been the sole contributor to both Draft space and main space articles (except for the editor who moved the page), it's not an attribution problem. The main thing we want to get across to them is to not do any future cut & paste jobs, not to get into any "Move wars" where pages are being moved back and forth between namespaces.
If the article is really in unacceptable shape, use one of standard forms of deletion tagging (CSD, PROD, AFD), I typically see AFD used when cases like this arise. That can seem a little heavy-handed to me because in most cases, these are very new editors who are just unfamiliar with our rules. If they do a cut & paste job, they generally don't do it twice after a warning which is the result I like to see. I think they are generally surprised to see that any other editor has even noticed the articles they are working on! I also frequently leave an invitation to visit the Teahouse because editor talk like "cut & paste jobs", "page moves" and "attribution" can result in them having questions about what that all means. I've found that often new editors don't even know about Draft space and what it is for and just think that their articles have been exiled. They don't realize that experienced editors moving bad, newly created articles to Draft space is actually a way of saving them from being quickly deleted, so that they can be improved over time.
So, that's my approach. It's a different matter if the original version, now in Draft space, has a few different editors who have made contributions to the page, that is the version we need to keep and in those cases, it's okay to tag the newly created main space version for CSD deletion (I think most times when this happens, editors use CSD G6 and leave an explanation). So, it kind of a case-by-case situation, it happens on a daily basis with very new editors and what our goal is is to educate these editors rather than getting in move wars or such which will just confuse and frustrate them (and you).
I also wanted to thank you for tagging expired drafts CSD G13. It's a task I try to keep up with throughout the day but I often get busy with other daily jobs I take on or monitor and fall behind. It's not a very exciting task but the drafts can pile up over a course of hours and it's nice to keep things current. I'm not sure what time zone you are in but this is something that can be done over the course of a 24 hour day/night if you find that they lingered too long past their expiration date/time. And I REALLY appreciate it that you leave a notification on the talk page of the draft creator when you tag an article for deletion, that's not always done by everyone and it is so important with CSD G13s that editors know they can return to work on their draft by going to WP:REFUND and getting it restored. Thank you for doing that.
I hope this loooong explanation is helpful and not too complicated. Liz Read! Talk! 19:06, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
Oh, and, if you want, you can always turn the Draft version into a redirect to the main space page, I see that done many times when this happens if there are no issues over editor attribution. Draft redirects do not need to be deleted. Liz Read! Talk! 19:09, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
Helpful is definitely the word I'd choose for this long explanation. It's a lot of information and relevant context, so I'll definitely be re-reading it a few times to properly absorb and digest it all. I appreciate the thoroughness of it and the guidance, thanks so much :) Hey man im josh (talk) 19:21, 22 July 2022 (UTC)


Thank you for deleting and moving Black Coffee! Utfor (talk) 19:59, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Utfor,
No problem, glad I could help. Liz Read! Talk! 04:35, 23 July 2022 (UTC)


I appreciate you being formal[1], however my name is not Ron nor am I male. Atac2 (talk) . 04:24, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Atac2 or Grayerjohn,
Well, you keep creating sockpuppets named Ron and create pages named after Ron, I just assumed you were talking about yourself. Liz Read! Talk! 04:34, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
I suppose that is a fair point. Atac2 (talk) . 04:39, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

Reverting incorrect closeEdit

Hey Liz. I just want to check I didn't goof with this here action. Article was nominated for deletion, nominator turns out to be a sock of the author and is now blocked. Nominator didn't like the way the convo was going and closed the nomination as speedy keep. I've reverted that non-admin closure. I just wondered a) if I haven't over-reached myself here and b) if all logs etc are correctly preserved/reinstated. Sometimes Twinkle scares me to death... Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 10:07, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

You've got mailEdit

Hello, Liz. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.TheSandDoctor Talk 16:20, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

The Heat is OnEdit

Hey Liz, Would you be willing to undelete The Heat is On (TV series) and move it (without redirect) to WP:HOAXLIST? WP:DENY and all that, sure... but this case is quite instructive on how hoaxes can permeate sources of low reliability like The Express, and that such sources should be scrutinized heavily when establishing existence. Ovinus (talk) 01:02, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Ovinus,
I have no objections but I have to look into exactly what is done. I handled one other long-term hoax a couple years ago before but I kind of mishandled it, I created an archive page that I linked to. It's probably not complicated but I've been very busy today, it seems like we have a lot of admins who take off the weekends so I closed most of the AFDs for Saturday. Give me a bit of time. Since the article has been around so long, I guess it's not really an urgent matter! Liz Read! Talk! 01:07, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
Of course! Take your time and thank you for your tireless work at AfD.   Ovinus (talk) 01:09, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Message on my wall.Edit

I am almost 100% percent sure you did not mean for the message on my wall to sound condescending, and I am sorry that I couldn't help but receive it as such. Anyways, There has been NO human changes to Draft:Sumer Singh Yadav when it was declined on 12 Jan 2022. please explain to me why that is not WP:G13. KSAWikipedian (talk) 05:42, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, KSAWikipedian,
The non-bot edit to Draft:Sumer Singh Yadav was on March 12th so it would have been eligible for a CSD G13 on September 12. But now that we have both edited the draft, it will next be eligible for CSD G13 deletion on January 25, 2023 (unless someone edits the page in those six months). It's six months since the last human edit to the page, any edit counts. Editors often postpone CSD G13 deletion by making a minor edit to the page to give it another six months time.
If it's any consolation, new page taggers sometimes misunderstand CSD G13 and also tag other pages in User space that just haven't been edited in years but that are not eligible for CSD G13 (see WP:G13 for the exact requirements). The criteria for speedy deletion are very specific and limited but once you are familiar with them, it's easy to make the right call. Liz Read! Talk! 05:50, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Category:Card games introduced in 1901Edit

Hi there. I noticed that you tagged this category for speedy deletion; note that the category isn't actually empty, despite nothing appearing in the category page. For example, the redirects Neo Revelation and Southern Islands (Pokémon Trading Card Game) both have that category in their article page. I tried making a null edit to the former to force its appearance in the category, but that didn't work.

Note that this has also happened with a few categories that have already been deleted. Mindmatrix 23:45, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Gah. I was looking at the wrong year... Mindmatrix 23:46, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
Hello, Mindmatrix,
Well, CSD C1 isn't exactly "speedy". Categories sit for 7 days before deletion is implemented because sometimes categories are temporarily empty (this often happens when templates are responsible for filling up categories and the templates change) or when categories are emptied "out of process"...this happens when, instead of making a deletion proposal at Categories for Discussion, an editor will remove all of the pages from a category so that it will be tagged for speedy deletion as an empty category. This is not an appropriate action to take but it is very common, even among editors who do a lot of work with categories.
But having this week-long delay does allow category creators and others to take action if there are any problems with the tagging or with the category. It is not uncommon for categories that are tagged CSD C1 to have the CSD tag removed before the end of the 7 day period. I wish other forms of speedy deletion allowed for this time to respond to a page tagging but, unfortunately, pages are often quickly deleted before the page creator even seens the deletion notification. Liz Read! Talk! 23:57, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Belated ninth anniversary on WikipediaEdit

Thanks, Chris troutman! I actually started editing Wikipedia in 2007 but it was with a different account and then I edited as an IP editor for years. But it still has been 9 years with this account so I will celebrate that! Can't wait to join the 10 Year Society! Liz Read! Talk! 17:36, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Speedy deletion declined: Category:Wyoming suffrageEdit

Hello Liz. I am just letting you know that I declined the speedy deletion of Category:Wyoming suffrage, a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: Category is populated or is otherwise allowed to be empty. Thank you. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 18:09, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Megalibrarygirl,
Thanks for letting me know but this is not uncommon. I'd say 8-10% of categories tagged CSD C1 are only temporarily empty. That's why they sit around for a week before deletion is implemented. As soon as a tagged category has pages in them and is no longer empty, the tag is removed so thank you for doing that. Stay cool! Liz Read! Talk! 20:24, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
I appreciate your work! I probably made the category and meant to add the article to it and just forgot! FacePalm! Megalibrarygirl (talk) 00:04, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Coordinates missing categoriesEdit

Hi Liz, you've recently nominated a few of the "coordinates missing" tracker categories for speedy deletion. This is entirely my fault for not properly marking these as tracker categories, and I apologise. Sometime in the next couple of weeks, I intend to tag the entire coordinates-missing category tree with {{articles-missing-coordinates category}}, but cannot do it right at the moment. In the interim, could you please hold off nominating these for deletion? — The Anome (talk) 19:47, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, The Anome,
Of course! Also, if you tag them {{emptycat}}, they will stop appearing on our nightly Empty Categories list. Thanks for letting me know. Liz Read! Talk! 20:26, 26 July 2022 (UTC)


Thanks again for your guidance regarding RfU. I have restored 1000+ pages since that time. Jay   04:36, 27 July 2022 (UTC)


Was this deleted on accident? --Minorax«¦talk¦» 12:33, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Question regarding AfD closingEdit

Hi, came here after seeing your comment on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Faraz Haider (musician). Was wondering why pages in AfD with no opposition to deletion, aren't soft deleted after a week like WP:PROD. Can we consider AfD with no opposition and support as PROD? Thanks. AHatd (talk) 13:22, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

That's already a thing, Liz may have had other reasons for not doing so. See WP:SOFTDELETE. —VersaceSpace 🌃 13:25, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
@VersaceSpace Quite swift reply. Yeah, got my answer after looking a few past AfDs in the archive (every AfD has two relisting before soft deletion). BTW Thanks for being helpful. AHatd (talk) 13:40, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
Hello, AHatd,
I have an answer that no one ever likes..."it depends". There are administrators who will close AFDs that have no participation other than the nominator with a "Soft Delete" or even a straight "Delete". I prefer to relist discussions in the hope of soliciting more feedback from other editors who frequent AFD discussions. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. An editor/admin is supposed to have a good reason to relist a third time but I've done it before and I have even seen 4 relistings...in those cases, I think the relister hasn't noticed that the discussion has already been relisted several times before. In these seemingly unresolvable AFDs, our deletion guidelines say that it's better to close with "No conesnsus".
Personally, I like to see at least two editors recommending Deletion before deleting a main space article through AFD. I don't mind deleting pages, in fact, I have deleted more pages than only a few other administrators. But, in my view, aside from pure junk, which is best handled through CSD Speedy Deletion, so much effort is expended to create articles that I prefer not to delete them on the basis of one editor's opinion or assessment. This is a personal point of view and other admins who close AFDs do not have my reluctance. Luckily there about 4-8 admins I regularly see closing AFD discussions and I think you can expect Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Faraz Haider (musician) to close sooner rather than later. Sorry if my relisting caused any frustration, I would certainly not expect to see another relist for this partciular discussion.
I think VersaceSpace was alluding to the fact that "Soft Deletion" is not always possible with some AFD closures but, in this case, it is a discussion that is eligible for a Soft Deletion and I expect that to be how it is closed, if not by me than by another admin. Liz Read! Talk! 21:23, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
Hi, I really appreciate you writing me back. Was just curious to know more about AfD closing process. No, there wasn't any frustration at all :-) Thanks for such a insightful response. AHatd (talk) 08:27, 30 July 2022 (UTC)


Hello Liz, as you are an administrator, I'm approaching you to have both the extra rights i.e. Autopatrolled and Extended-confirmed to be removed from my account, as I do not intend to work any further in this project. Thankyou. zoglophie 21:08, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Zoglophie,
  Done I'm sorry to see you go. I'm not sure what has prompted your departure but I, myself, have left editing for two prolonged periods, once for 6 months when I was a new editor and once for 2 years a year after I became an administrator, and I hope if the desire to edit returns one day, you'll come back as a valued contributor. Good luck! Liz Read! Talk! 21:28, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Validity of “fail” claimEdit

Hi Liz, In Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Teppei Miwa, there’s one delete vote claiming the article fails WP:GNG, but the reason is because the source that meets every criteria, particularly in from Yahoo News Japan, is not available in his region, even though it is elsewhere. Is it valid for someone to claim a source fails WP:GNG just because they can’t access to the website & don’t know what is written there? I hope you can give a say in the discussion, whatever opinion you agree to, to prevent pointless argument. Thank you very much. NguyenDuyAnh1995 (talk) 18:50, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, NguyenDuyAnh1995,
Unfortunately, you have been blocked for sockpuppetry for a week and the AFD will probably be closed by the time you are able to edit. It is unwise to edit logged out as you can see. I looked over the AFD and it seems like it has a healthy discussion going on although you may not be happy with the result when it is closed. Liz Read! Talk! 01:06, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi! I am requesting your help, please.Edit

As per Wikipedia’s dispute resolution process, I was directed to administrators who have updated recently to help solve an editing dispute, before escalating the issue. I am kindly asking for your assistance.

There is an administrator https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ohnoitsjamie who has been rejecting credible information, due to their personal dislike of an artist, and therefore they have been threatening to block me. I really do not want to argue with them, I just want the information to be updated correctly. They are continuously deleting the edited content, without properly reviewing the information and they are refusing to engage in a civilized discussion. This is why I am seeking your help.

The information I am trying to update is “the List of people with absolute pitch”. The current sources for this list are also just articles claiming these artists have this ability. My sources match the current list of sources for the other artists. The artist that should be added is Jungkook, the Main Vocalist, from BTS. He showed this ability of “absolute pitch” on camera on the variety show “RUN BTS”, it has been comfirmed and written in a book by a music critic and by a music producer who worked with him, and it has also been most recently confirmed by another artist on the list of people with absolute pitch, Charlie Puth. This artist just confirmed this information on camera in multiple interviews in June 2022. These are all reliable sources, especially Jungkook himself, proving this ability to identify notes without any reference point on camera (which is the current Wikipedia description of absolute pitch).

I can provide credible articles and links if needed. I would be so thankful if you could help on this issue! Thank you! Moniinicole (talk) 00:55, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Moniinicole,
Can you provide one or two specific citations to suppor this claim? It is not unusual for any editor or admin to remove unsupported claims from a Wikipedia article and Wikipedia can not be used as a reference or any other user-generated source of information. Have you posted an query about this on Ohnoitsjamie's talk page or on the article talk page? Liz Read! Talk! 01:00, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi! Thank you so much for your response. This specific source demonstrates that Jungkook has absolute pitch. Absolute pitch is defined on Wikipedia as “the ability to identify or re-create a given musical note, without the benefit of a reference tone.” Jungkook does this on camera in episode 150 of the variety show, “RUN BTS”. This take place within the first 5 minutes of the show and there is an option for English subtitles. Jungkook demonstrates absolute pitch at about 3 minutes and 10 seconds into the video. This is a source of him demonstrating this ability. Thank you for helping to look into this! Moniinicole (talk) 04:54, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

There have also been many articles written about this. Multiple producers and music industry professionals who have worked with Jungkook have confirmed that he has absolute pitch. However, the best source is Jungkook proving this ability himself on camera, which is in the link I provided. Thank you. Moniinicole (talk) 04:59, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

https://m.vlive.tv/post/1-25128890 Moniinicole (talk) 04:59, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Moniinicole,
Do you have any written sources? Editors evaluating these matters won't sit through a video. The written sources don't have to be in English. If this is a notable characteristic, I'm sure that some magazine or mainstream website has written about it. Liz Read! Talk! 05:04, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

The link posted above is to the video source. This administrator immediately dismissed and shut down any conversations and rejected all sources related to this artist. However, they approved sources that were less credible for other artists. When I confronted them, they blocked me. I really don’t want to dispute or have an issue with this person. All I want is for the correct facts to be updated and for someone professional to just take a little bit of time to look into this so that Wikipedia page can have accurate information. Thank you. Moniinicole (talk) 05:07, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi! I will collect the sources and send soon. Thank you! Moniinicole (talk) 05:08, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

These are some articles that have written about Jungkook having “perfect pitch” or absolute pitch. Thank you again for your time to help!





Moniinicole (talk) 05:17, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
I'll look over these when I have some time. Although I realize this matter is very important to you, I have a lot of tasks I need to complete on Wikipedia on a daily basis that keep me pretty busy. I'll try to get to evaluating these over the next day. Liz Read! Talk! 05:20, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your kindness! This truly means a lot to me. I completely understand and I will be thankful for you to look over the information whenever you have the time. Thank you again! Moniinicole (talk) 05:33, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

I haven't forgotten about you, Moniinicole, today has just been very busy. I'll get to looking at the sources you provided. Liz Read! Talk! 23:06, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much! I really appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedule! Moniinicole (talk) 23:10, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi Liz; you are one of several people this user has canvassed. Please see the discussion here. I've also asked this user to stop making unfounded allegations against me as they've done repeatedly on their talk page and elsewhere. OhNoitsJamie Talk 23:16, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
Well, that's not good, Ohnoitsjamie. There are very few places an editor can go when they have an editing dispute with an administrator so I thought I'd evaluate their argument. As you know, it often comes down to having reliable sources to back up your claims. But I'll also look at the article talk page discussion now that you have referred me to it. Liz Read! Talk! 23:29, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

This administrator has been attacking me and other users personally and stalking us. That is our issue with this person. As you can see, they even found my personal discussion with you. Please recognize that this behavior is not normal for an administrator to try and interfere when I went to someone else for help. It is unfortunate that they are letting their persona dislike of me interfere with the facts of this situation. This is not about winning or losing but about having someone take the time to look at the facts to do the best job to keep the information accurate. As per Wikipedia’s dispute resolution process, we are encouraged to seek help from a third party, before escalating the situation, which is exactly what I have done here. Moniinicole (talk) 23:58, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

@Liz. Can I just drop in and say that @Moniinicole has also canvassed me. I did not find their sources and video for their claim especially sound or convincing. But when I went to their talk page I found that (perhaps in their fervour to see their favourite artist fully lauded), they had engaged in some quite escalatory language and accusations against Ohnoitsjamie. See this I find that level of angst, accusation and suspicion of another's motives somewhat unacceptable, and have left them an 'Only Warning', as I don't want to see them dealing with any other editor in the same way. I note they've now responded to me rather sharply there, too. I don't feel that this is going to pan out too well. Nick Moyes (talk) 00:45, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Healthy discussionEdit

Hi Liz! As you mention a healthy discussion of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Teppei Miwa, I think I should give some of my opinions on the matter, because I have seen you as decision makers in recent gymnastics AfD discussions.

  • The first comment (by user who nominated this for deletion) claimed that Teppei Miwa didn’t win any medal at the 2018 Voronin Cup & cited the women’s results. This might due to the source in the article, but even after it was fixed & announced in the comment below, the user still remained the claim.
  • The 2nd delete vote said that None of the articles linked count towards GNG with listing what types they are. But in the article Teppei Miwa, there’s no source as scoring error, press release or his profiles from his school or team.
  • The 3rd delete vote claimed that the article failed WP:GNG but he also said that he couldn’t read the Yahoo News Japan source as it blocked users from UK & EEA. This fails WP:SOURCEACCESS.

I know this edit violates WP:STRAWSOCK so I’m willing to take the consequences. 2405:4802:11C:EBC0:40FA:4A3:A548:8DE1 (talk) 03:35, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, 2405:4802:11C:EBC0:40FA:4A3:A548:8DE1,
Right now, you are blocked for a week. Is this one AFD so important that you are willing to be blocked indefinitely? I don't think you realize how lucky you are to only be blocked for one week. Please stop socking. I don't want to extend your block. After your block is over, we can discuss the situation with gymnastics articles on the project. Please take the long-turn view here. Liz Read! Talk! 03:41, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Asking for AdviceEdit

Hi Liz, hope you well. First and foremost, the sockpuppet at the AFD, as you previously noticed, has been blocked for using sockpuppet accounts. Hopefully the user in question can use this time to learn and reflect upon his mistakes, and I want to confirm this will not deter me from this AFD.

However, I would like you to offer some advice. In your opinion, did I handle this situation correctly at the AFD or could I have handled it better? I believe that I was acting in a respectful manner within the discussion as this is what I always like to do, and that my point was valid, although perhaps it was unwise for me and another user to raise suspicions on a sockpuppet explicitly. However, I think, in a way, this is useful for whoever is closing the AFD to see. I would like a second opinion on this, so if there is a next time, I could improve the way I deal with a sockpuppet if you believe I didn’t handle this situation correctly