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    I feel like AfCs are somewhat flawed edit

    I have noticed this a few times where what I consider are decent quality articles getting repeatedly rejected. I know that reviewers are not supposed to take previous reviews into consideration when reviewing a new article, but it's hard to deny that seeing say 5 rejections must surely subconsciously or consciously affect the review of a new draft submission.

    Often the initial article definitely had reason to be rejected, but over time improvements get made and in my opinion become fairly good, well written and sourced, but I feel as if the previous rejections often influence or bias the latest AfC submission. I don't want to list examples, but has anyone else had this experience, if so, what are some alternatives to AfC - that perhaps works like an AfD where there is more community consensus. Mr Vili talk 12:06, 24 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

    I assume you mean declined NOT rejected, drafts are only rejected once, after which they are not considered again, when reviewing I always check to see if previous decline reasons have been addressed, if improvements have been made I will accept. Theroadislong (talk) 12:10, 24 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    @Mr vili: I think you should list examples, otherwise this is just ranting.
    Perhaps you could also enlighten us on what makes you more qualified than a reviewer to judge what is "decent quality"? I'm not for a moment suggesting that isn't possible, just wondering why you feel a number of reviewers are all wrong, and you alone are right.
    Also, a technical point: it is highly unlikely that a draft gets "repeatedly rejected", because rejection is meant to be the end of the road. You probably mean repeatedly declined. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 12:11, 24 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    You say you don't wish to give a specific example of a draft that has been repeatedly and incorrectly declined, but it is difficult to judge such a claim without one. AFC is almost always a voluntary process(except in cases of things like topic bans/COI). If an editor in good faith feels that the numerous, more experienced reviewers have gotten it wrong(not impossible, but seems unlikely), they should move the draft themselves and roll the dice that it won't be nominated for AfD or other forms of deletion. 331dot (talk) 12:29, 24 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    @331dot @DoubleGrazing Was probably this version of Draft:Tristan Tate. It was moved into mainspace anyway after Mr vili took me to dispute resolution for declining it. PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:53, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    If you are confident a draft should be accepted, just accept it (if you're an AFC reviewer) or move it to mainspace (if you're not an AFC reviewer). Draftspace is optional. However I hope you are well-calibrated to the norms of AFD if you are accepting marginal drafts, else a bunch of drafts you accept may end up getting deleted at AFD. There is probably a reason that these drafts are getting declined, and that reason might not be "AFC is broken/biased". I would encourage you to post examples if you want to discuss this in more detail. –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:40, 24 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    This is likely the result of me declining Draft:Tristan Tate (which was dragged into mainspace anyway after he took me to dispute resolution for declining the draft. Thanks!). Even if it was unrelated to notability, that article cited several unreliable sources and bringing it to mainspace forced other editors to clean it up for you. BLPs especially are a contentious topic and need to cite only reliable sources. That draft did not. PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:50, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    The AFD related to that Tristan Tate article (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tristan Tate (2nd nomination)) is quite messy. There are several newer editors who aren't familiar with the nuances of WP:GNG claiming that various non-GNG sources are GNG. –Novem Linguae (talk) 02:38, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    And then accusing me of bludgeoning for pointing it out! Argh. PARAKANYAA (talk) 02:39, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    good heavens. this whole discussion is a mess, and I don't want to be part of it. Speaking for us all. -- asilvering (talk) 11:46, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    @Mr vili I think I get what you mean. Personally, I saw that Dexerto was in the draftspace and had been declined a couple times due to not great sourcing. Probably discouraged the original creator. I improved it myself, added some WP:RELIABLE sources here and there and decided to move it to the main space. Notability was met for me. The fact that Dexerto is used as a source in many articles on Wikipedia also affirmed notability.
    I think Tristan Tate should be kept, so I'm going to put in my two cents there. There is some iffy sourcing there though so I think cleanup is in place. TLAtlak 03:26, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    @I'm tla I don't want to bludgeon the discussion so I'm asking you here, but are you aware of WP:BLPCRIME and WP:PERPETRATOR? That's the secondary reason I declined the draft. While there are reliable sources that discuss him, it's all in reference to his and his brother's criminal case (almost exclusively his brother) and generally from a policy POV it is considered a very bad idea to make an article on a living person known for committing a crime when they have not been convicted yet. The sourcing exclusively backs up the crime conviction notability, even ignoring the fact that it's a duplicate of his brother info wise. PARAKANYAA (talk) 03:40, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Yeah, we'll have to be careful. But Tristan Tate is certainly not known only in connection with a criminal event or trial. I'm sure there are other reliable sources but requires a deep dig-up that don't hone in on the criminal case. TLAtlak 03:51, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    @I'm tla As far as I can see, no reliable ones discuss him outside of the court case, unlike his brother. A lot of sources have been presented to try to justify it and none have been reliable. PARAKANYAA (talk) 03:52, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I wouldn't say completely non-reliable. Yeah there's a bunch of rando blogs and tabloid stuff, but from a quick search I see stuff from Hindustan Times and Dexerto outside of the criminal cases. These are WP:MREL, but they still somewhat contribute. TLAtlak 04:08, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    You can't really partially contribute to notability. It's either there or it isn't. PARAKANYAA (talk) 16:03, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Sorry, I just want to mention, this was not specifically about Tristan Tate, I have noticed it in a few other articles in the past but anyways I didn't want to distract this discussion with the controversial nature of Tristan Tate. I was merely curious as to whether others have also experienced this issue. Mr Vili talk 03:56, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    @Mr vili Your statement makes sense. I think AfC reviewers wouldn't want to take a big risk accepting a possibly non-notable subject, especially BLPs. TLAtlak 04:11, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    In the context of BLPs I think it certainly makes sense to be a bit more cautious, which to me also highlights the need for a way to gain greater community consensus to avoid the issue of being overly cautious and just flat out rejecting an article which would otherwise be considered notable. Mr Vili talk 04:17, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    A dedicated additional process like that would be nice, but it would probably very annoying and just make it all complicated. Also I think where we are discuss right now is a fine place to discuss on-the-verge drafts. I don't think the issue is that serious either, if a topic is notable it's most likely that one day an editor will come across, ensure it's properly cited, and get it accepted. TLAtlak 04:25, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    The way to gain community consensus is usually AfD. By itself, that wouldn't be a problem: AfC reviewers are encouraged (I hope) to accept borderline drafts even if they run the risk of being nominated for deletion, as this provides a way to get a large number of eyes on a new article and source editor opinions. However, this can be a stressful process sometimes for both the reviewer and submitter, which is why some reviewers might hesitate to accept some drafts without more solid groundwork. I'm not opinionated one way or another in this discussion, just sharing my perspective on why you may be seeing what you're seeing. TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 04:28, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    @I'm tla @TechnoSquirrel69 Perhaps in the AfC process, there should be an "official" mechanism in the workflow for an experienced editor (maybe uninvolved or 100+ edits) to nominate a declined request for dispute, perhaps within here. I may possibly be over-complicating it, but I much prefer the AfD process to gain community consensus over singular reviewers which may or may not have their own biases, or be influenced by previously declined reviews - anyways just an opinion Mr Vili talk 05:34, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I can already see UPE editors would want to take advantage of a process like that. Maybe something like 250+ edits could be okay. I wouldn't mind a process like that, though, you could take it to WP:Village pump (idea lab)? TLAtlak 05:38, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Not to shoot down your ideas out of hand, but I'm not immediately seeing the need for a new discussion venue in this case. As you mentioned, AfD is an option, as is asking at the help desk or the Teahouse. That's about it for official processes (I believe), but reviewers will often discuss possibly contentious or difficult reviews on this talk page or in the NPP Discord server. What additional benefit or opportunity for discussion would be provided with a new venue? TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 05:46, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    It already exists. WP:DRAFTOBJECT. You can just move it to mainspace. Draftspace is optional and anyone (within reason) can switch a draft to mainspace and the AFD process at any time. –Novem Linguae (talk) 06:34, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Adding to what Novem Linguae said, there's also an in-AfC process at WP:AFCHD. -- asilvering (talk) 11:54, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    @Mr vili: Also, if we're discussing the relationship of AfC reviewers to demonstrating notability, there was also a recent discussion at § Ettrick and Northern that you might be interested in. TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 04:34, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I can't speak for anyone else, but when I see a draft that has been declined a few times already it's either a) an open-shut obvious fail being repeatedly resubmitted by an editor who doesn't understand or doesn't care about the feedback or b) something an editor has been putting a lot of effort into, so previous declines are barely relevant because they were stamped on a draft that was so significantly different from the one I then end up reviewing. Rarely anything in the middle. If your article has 5 declines on it and you're still resubmitting, it's probably the former, sorry. You can always start a thread at WP:AFCHD if you want to object. -- asilvering (talk) 11:53, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

    To make a long story short, IMO in practice, on average, passing AFC is a higher standard than passing NPP/AFD. I've done a lot of NPP and later a small amount of AFC review. When starting the latter it was explained that theoretically, the criteria for passing AFC is having a good chance at passing AFD. In reality, the criteria for passing at NPP/AFD is "should this topic have an article?" (and 95% of the time that is "Does the topic pass wp:notability?") and not other article quality issues. I think that the de facto requirements for passing AFC is that the article does not have any other significant quality issues. I think that this is simply human nature.....what reviewer is going to want to put their stamp of approval on an article which has significant problems even if it would pass NPP/AFD? I'm not implying that this is good or bad, I'm just noting it and noting that I think that this phenomena is relevant to some of the types of discussions that often come up. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 15:28, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

    I know I said this when you made similar comments before, but for anyone reading this, if you see this happening - ie, someone declining an article that would pass NPP/AfD - please bring it up with the reviewer, because that should not be happening. -- asilvering (talk) 15:55, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Agreed. I saw a rejected draft today that 22 references, and most of them looked reasonable. Resubmitted it because that's just silly to reject (didn't have time to formally do a full review). Primefac (talk) 19:45, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    and I just accepted it. Theroadislong (talk) 19:52, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I think that it's a bit ingrained. Often when people talk about "article improvement before it's ready for mainspace" (vs. the narrower topic of just including references to establish wp:notability) they are often talking about article quality issues which would not be a cause for rejection at NPP/AFD. Also, it's human nature to be cautious about passing something, doubly so if they are concerned that someone might critique them for passing an edge case article which would be 90% sure of passing AFD (and NPP) Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:07, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Sure, and the way to deal with that is to bring it up with the reviewer, because that should not be happening. I'm not saying you have to go yell at them. It's perfectly fine to have sympathy. But we shouldn't be sitting on our hands saying "alas, it's just human nature to decline drafts without good reason" and acting as though there is nothing to be done. Reviewers who decline drafts incorrectly aren't going to get any better at it if no one tells them they've messed up. -- asilvering (talk) 21:42, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I took a look at a bunch of the ones at the help desk. There's another common situation, perhaps the most common one there. That is where the actual problem is wp:notability and a wp:ver type rejection reason is given. Then the author really doesn't understand what the problem is and exactly what needs to be done to fix it, or why fixing it will be impossible if the needed GNG sources don't exist. I might try helping a bit on some of those at the help desk to do what you say and to get more of an understanding. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 22:53, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Agreed. Some of the decline template reasons aren't that great – either vague or some editors may not use the appropriate one. It might be worth striking up more specific decline reason templates for AfC revewiers too?
    I think declining can also have something to do with potential WP:COI in regards to WP:BLP and WP:CORP drafts. Sometimes I look at Draft submissions at New Pages Feed that could meet notability but there is a hint of advertising or conflict of interest, judging by the username or the article's tone. I might take a stab at some declined drafts to see if I can bring them up to Wikipedia's requirements.
    Also @Primefac I noticed on Sunday you replied to all AfC participant requests other than mine – are you still reviewing my case? I'm keen to get involved in this process via a probationary period of some sort. Thaks. TLAtlak 02:09, 27 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Yes, I am still reviewing. Your participation in various discussions here is helping that process. Primefac (talk) 07:31, 27 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Thanks for the update! TLAtlak 07:46, 27 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    In regards to the 22-source decline draft, same thing. Reviewer had posted a COI notice on the creator's other draft that was interconnected (person & association). It's possible that caused a decline for the 22-source draft. TLAtlak 02:24, 27 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    A COI is not a reason to decline a draft; a promotional page is a reason to decline a page, but COI editors can (admittedly rarely) write neutral articles. Primefac (talk) 07:31, 27 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I guess it depends on how promotional it is. And fax, I see so many clearly use ChatGPT or an WP:CORP draft completely rely on the company's own website and press releases. TLAtlak 07:48, 27 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    fyi, if you see that a draft or article is mostly citing the company's own website and various press releases, this is a strong hint that running it through earwig might show obvious copyvio. -- asilvering (talk) 18:09, 27 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

    So, if the wp:afc passage standard is intended to be a reasonable chance of passage at AFD, why are there "decline" templates for reasons which are not a reason for deletion of an article? Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:34, 27 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

    I guess an example WP:NPOV. I think people just have higher standards with an AfC submission (it's like decline or accept) but at AfD people are lenient as it would "already" be in the mainspace which = opportunity for other editors to "fix" TLAtlak 03:15, 28 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Because AFC reviewers individually and collectively have requirements beyond WP:LIKELY to survive WP:AFD. WP:NPOV is the only one in the reviewer instructions but certainly not the only one in play. Reviewers seem to appreciate additional latitude to decline because you do risk the scorn of other editors for accepting a marginal draft. ~Kvng (talk) 22:04, 17 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    @Kvng: (and to others) I think that you have accurately described the situation. Noting, you have described a situation which conflicts with the official AFC passage criteria. I'm not implying which one is a better idea, but wouldn't it be a good idea to reconcile the two? North8000 (talk) 17:28, 22 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    If it means changing the acceptance criteria to include a quality component, no, that takes us further from the Wikipedia way. Changing reviewer behavior to more closely match reviewing instructions will require a cultural change at AfC. I'm not sure where to start with that. ~Kvng (talk) 14:20, 23 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    @Kvng: I think that the latter would be easier than you realize. I think that most reviewers doing non-AFC criteria rejections do it out of fear / obligation including for the reason described in your 22:04, 17 March 2024 post. AFC also gives mixed signals on this, including by having rejection templates for criteria which are not AFC rejection criteria. And easy start would be to get rid of non-AFC criteria rejection templates. And n the instruction directly say that it is OK to pass articles (and they should pass articles) with quality problems if the AFC criteria have been met. North8000 (talk) 20:07, 24 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I concur with North8000 on his first point. I was also in the "apply quality criteria to avoid criticism" camp when I started reviewing, but after a short discussion with an experienced reviewer, I quickly switched my priorities to be more in line with meeting core policies than assessing things like prose quality or formatting. TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 20:32, 24 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Primefac set up a workshop several years ago to review decline reasons and messaging available in AFCH. I suggested removing many of these. IIRC, my suggestions were not well received also the whole workshop project stalled. ~Kvng (talk) 23:42, 24 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    @Kvng: We should work out a specific proposal and propose it. I'd be happy to help but I'm not very fluent in the AFC mechanics/message/template details so this would other folks to work on development. I'm pretty strong on article existence criteria (a few thousand NPP reviews over a few years) so I could help in the article existence respect. North8000 (talk) 18:12, 27 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I'm afraid all I'm up for at this point is beating my head against this wall on occasion. ~Kvng (talk) 01:11, 28 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Just a snippet. Ive been involved in training hundreds of new Wikipedia editors for years and we tell them all about the five pillars and then caution them never to use the AFC process. Everyone here knows why. I'm not keen to join this debate. I look through the articles that we have on Wikipedia that are completely unreferenced and then I look at a stalled AFC where I see editors who I m sure think they they are helping with "Articles for Creation" and its all too frequently "Articles for continued continuation". The unreferenced articles are nowhere near AfC tick standard. The articles that are rejected at AfC are of much higher standard. It takes an hour to create a perfectly valid Wikipedia article that can add to the project just as long as the editor doesnt press the AfC button.... in whiich case the same article can take months before its abandoned. I see in this thread then you want to discuss examples .... umm the issue I'm afraid is not about a specific article. I get the impression that some members of the AfC crew are valued if they keep the backlog down by repeatedly rejecting articles that no one would think needed deleting. Good luck with addressing this problem. Victuallers (talk) 09:38, 7 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Avoiding AfC seems like good advice for editors that have been given some training. Thanks for your work here! ~Kvng (talk) 00:36, 9 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    IMO, at least at the macro level, the solution is simple. Align everything "pass/fail" related at AFC with it's stated pass/fail criteria. (e.g. instructions to reviewers, failure templates etc.) North8000 (talk) 15:20, 7 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    Also say that it's OK to pass "edge cases" regarding wp:notability. We can handle those out at NPP based on AFD norms which is a harder-to-learn criteria. North8000 (talk) 15:26, 7 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    Tristan Tate edit

    Since we are discussing the Tristan Tate article, I would like feedback on whether what I did with that page was reasonable. As has been mentioned, the article was submitted to AFC, reasonably, and declined, reasonably. The originator then requested discussion at DRN. The author said that they wanted the draft moved into article space so that there could be a deletion discussion to obtain a rough consensus on individual notability.

    DRN has not in the past been a forum for a discussion of draft declines, which are discussed at the AFC Help Desk or the Teahouse. Also, I had previously declined an earlier version of the draft, and so had become involved and would not be a neutral mediator. However, I was willing to ignore the rule that a reviewer should only accept a draft if they thought that there was a greater than 50% chance that it would be kept after AFD. I had no idea what the likelihood was that it would be kept at AFD, but I thought that it was in the interests of the encyclopedia to resolve the question of the biographical notability of Tristan Tate with an AFD. So I said that if the draft was resubmitted to AFC again, I would accept it for the purpose of enabling a deletion discussion. The originator resubmitted, and I accepted, and there was a seven-day AFD, which has now been non-admin closed as Keep. So my question is: Do other reviewers think that I reasonably applied Ignore All Rules? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:38, 29 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

    I will also comment that I think that the non-administrative close was questionable because the AFD had been contentious, and the guideline says that contentious closes should be left to admins. But that is a matter either for discussion with the closer or for Deletion Review. It would have been a valid admin close, and I am very seldom inclined to criticize a non-admin close simply for being a non-admin close. But if it comes to Deletion Review, I will !vote to Overturn to Relist to allow an admin to close after another week, but that is only my opinion. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:38, 29 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

    I have accepted drafts knowing that they would probably be sent to AFD, so I don't think there's anything wrong with what you did here. Primefac (talk) 18:32, 29 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
    The close was self reverted. But the afd is still leaning keep. I think that's your answer right there, Robert. You accepted a draft that is so far surviving a deletion discussion. Looks like a good accept to me. –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:02, 29 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

    Templated response to draft bios being placed at wp:AFC/R ? edit

    It would be good to have a subst'able response template to place on users' talk pages, when they make this mistake. It seems to be a daily occurrence that some person from India places a draft biography into WP:Articles for creation/Redirects instead of using a sandbox or draftspace. That in itself is very weird, why are so many people from India are writing bios at AFC/R? There should be a standardized response to these people to tell them to use the article wizard, draft space, or a user sandbox, instead of making an illegal request at AFC/R. Considering how common this has become recently, there should be a template response to this situation, just as we have template rejection closures at AFC/R for closing requests. -- (talk) 07:31, 14 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

    I'd be in support of this. It has slowed down a little bit but for a good while we were getting at least one draft attempt at really weird AFC-related redirect talk pages (like... in places where I am literally the only page watcher... who finds these things?). A note about the "right place" might help over simply reverting them with "wrong location" as the edit summary. Primefac (talk) 12:15, 15 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I will note that we have {{Uw-draftfirst}} which theoretically could be used in these sorts of circumstances, though it's not perfect. Primefac (talk) 12:16, 15 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    {{AfC redirect error}} suits this purpose quite well. ~ Eejit43 (talk) 13:26, 28 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I knew we had something better-suited. Thanks! Primefac (talk) 14:45, 28 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Can this be documented somewhere? Other than this discussion, nothing links to it. Single-level user information (WP:SLT) templates would seem to be a location. As would AfC reviewer instructions. It also might do with a rename, to add "category" to the cannonical template name, with redirects from "redirect" and "category" individually. -- (talk) 03:03, 9 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I've renamed the page to {{Improper AfC redirect or category request}}, and will add the page to SLT! ~ Eejit43 (talk) 11:58, 9 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    Requesting review limit removal edit

    Hi, it has been about a month since I was added to the AfC reviewer list. I have done a couple reviews over this month and would be happy to do more. Pinging @Primefac for review, thanks. TLAtlak 15:24, 27 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

    It has been three weeks and three days, but I welcome feedback on their performance nonetheless. Primefac (talk) 15:39, 27 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    @I'm tla why did you not wait a full month before requesting a review as Primefac instucted? Also, why did you not wait to get feedback before requesting the NPP perm, now for the 3rd time in less than three months? You've been advised time and again not to rush be yet you still do which is one of the reasons an admin brought you to ANI and the reason an ANI you filed was dismissed, not to mention the advise you have been given on your talk page another other venues. S0091 (talk) 18:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    @S0091 I wasn't aware it was a hard, 30-day month, sorry. I requested NPP because I truly think I'm ready, maybe I am over zealous but I hope that my competence has shown in the 40+ pages, 50+ reviews. I haven't been in issues in a long while, as the ANIs you mentioned have all been important learning opportunities.
    However, given that both you and @DreamRimmer think it's best that I wait before applying for NPR, I have withdrawn my request.
    As per the message you gave on my talk page, I really do not quite understand why that was a problem when all I wanted to do was move my draft to the mainspace because I believed it was ready. TLAtlak 14:24, 28 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    You're right in that Primefac didn't say "30 days", he said "a month" which is not 3 weeks and as for the ANI's, those were in the last couple months so not that long ago. The reason I mention them at all is because it demonstrates an ongoing pattern. As for you accepting your own pending draft, I haven't mentioned it because it is not prohibited, nor should it be. As I stated, given you are on probation with restrictions I didn't think it was a good idea.
    I think you have potential, TLA but you still have a lot to learn. For example, your source assessments at AfDs have issues as demonstrated at WP:Articles for deletion/INVNT, WP:Articles for deletion/Saidullah Karimi (some were identical articles) and WP:Articles for deletion/Justin Jin where experienced engaged editors have disagreed with your analysis. These are all recent. S0091 (talk) 16:42, 28 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Got it, I'm not quite understanding why accepting my own draft wasn't a good idea, it was just procedural. As per the AfDs, I'm not perfect in my source analyses but I hope my 87% match rate can show I have an understanding. Thank you for thinking I have potential, that is very encouraging.
    P.S. I don't think you should link those two on-going AfDs as that can be interpreted as canvassing TLAtlak 16:51, 28 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I don't think you should link those two on-going AfDs... False; S0091 is not asking for anyone else to participate. Primefac (talk) 17:01, 28 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Just to add to this for the benefit of TLA/anyone else reading, it's perfectly fine even to invite others to participate in an AfD directly, provided that you aren't trying to prejudice the result in some way. Pinging a handful of people who have historically voted keep in similar AfDs is canvassing. Going to someone who has access to, say, a database of 20th century Lithuanian newspapers, and asking for their help finding sources for a bio article up for AfD is fine. Every so often I take a handful of AfDs to WP:WIRED for the latter reason, since a lot of people there are newspaper wizards. If they say they can't find anything, I believe them! It's much better to have a conclusive delete/keep than something that fizzles out in no consensus for lack of input, which just wastes the time of the few who participated. -- asilvering (talk) 17:16, 28 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Whoops. I was once warned when linking to an on-going AfD, I may have interpreted it wrong. Sorry S0091. TLAtlak 16:02, 29 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    No apology needed. It's a valid concern and have no issue with you bringing it up. S0091 (talk) 16:13, 29 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I personally do not take a whole lot of stock in the AfD match rate. It can be a good indicator of someone being totally out of whack with PAGs/consensus/norms but what really matters is the quality of participation/analysis. Anyone can do a drive-by !vote, which is pretty much what you did in January with !votes being cast within seconds of each other, and the stats can be gamed. What I look for is when someone !voted and overall engagement (i.e..did they review the sources, explain their reasoning, convince others who are experienced and engaged, etc.). Certainly not that !votes need to be accompanied by a full source assessment or anything like that but enough to tell they have a grasp, can determine a good source from bad one and understand the relevant PAGs. (Side note, for some reason your AfD stats stop on February 26th though you have participated since that time).
    I think you have you some work to do which includes taking seriously the feedback you are given directly, in AfDs, etc. as its not clear you do and in some instances, clear you haven't. I've blathered on enough so will step aside. S0091 (talk) 18:40, 28 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Yeah, maybe my AfD counter is broken? You are right that I rushed in January, but quite sure my votes in March/February have depth and not drive-by at all though. Sometimes I used a source assessment table. TLAtlak 16:46, 29 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I suggest posting a note at WP:VPT about the counter. It is odd. ? Yes, you have done sources assessment tables but your sources assessments are poor as demonstrated in the AfDs I noted above. S0091 (talk) 18:38, 29 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Linking AFDs on WikiProject talk pages is usually fine. It's pings and user talk pages that can run afoul of canvassing. –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:27, 28 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    There was a time yesterday I was thinking of speaking to an editor, who voted the same as me, on their talk page about an AfD. Is that fine? TLAtlak 16:49, 29 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Probably. No one's going to be able to give you a clear "always fine" or "always not fine" on this kind of hypothetical because it's going to come down to perceived intent. If you develop a habit of always voting keep or always voting delete on a particular class of articles, people will be less likely to give you the benefit of the doubt. Same goes for if you do it constantly, if you do it when it looks like you have a particular interest in the outcome, etc. -- asilvering (talk) 17:29, 29 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    As a concrete example, from Usedtobecool's comment below: The first in light of the second suggests to me an editor who had already decided they were not going to allow yet another young person biography to get deleted by the "passionate" others who were "targeting" it. This suggests to me that you will be extended considerably less benefit of the doubt when it comes to bio articles on young people. -- asilvering (talk) 17:34, 29 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Agree with asilvering. It depends because you don't want to come across as colluding. If the AfD is already close though, colluding would be a big stretch for obvious reasons. However, I think you would benefit more from reaching out to editors who have disagreed with you. S0091 (talk) 17:41, 29 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    S0091, you meant Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Justin Jin (entrepreneur), right? I am too close to it but I have a couple concerns which I wish to make known for independent evaluation. First, I disagree with their analysis almost completely. They were the largest contributor to that page in both size and frequency. I do not think someone who's unsure about what they're doing should be overwhelming a discussion like that. There was so much to challenge that I gave up on it completely. I saw strawmanning (As well, Spanish language should not be considered per WP:GNG), misapplication of WP:ENT (the second criteria of WP:ENTERTAINER may potentially apply here ... My small point with WP:ENTERTAINER relates to comedians, vaguely, with the fact that the subject seems to make comedy videos and that the company itself posts a lot of memes) and a failure to correct the entry on Billboard Argentina in their source analysis table when pointed out to them. When I said the source highlighting script doesn't necessarily represent consensus, they said, A good amount of them do. There is 6, and to me, 5 of them meet our requirements for significant coverage and independence. If it were up to me, that article would be deleted as spam, so naturally, I am wary when I see someone who saw no problem with it trying to join AFC/NPP but that's just my perspective. The second concern relates to this: The nominator's peculiar passion to delete this page and the imprecise G4 rationale by an administrator (having been deleted over a year ago, with strong changes and a massive increase in sourcing, and no hoaxes) seem to reflect a common trend I've seen on Wikipedia. Young, relatively notable subjects such as Rishab Jain, Avi Schiffmann, Jenk Oz, Kevin Leyes (which has since been recreated under Leyes (singer) due to new sourcing, which is evidently the case here as well, are often a target of editors. The first in light of the second suggests to me an editor who had already decided they were not going to allow yet another young person biography to get deleted by the "passionate" others who were "targeting" it. Other AFDs mentioned indicate the same to me: an editor who has a very hard time accepting a deletion outcome, which is fine except if you intend to work AFC/NPP, where we have to put our personal philosophies second to community given inclusion guidelines. They need to consider carefully whether this was the case, and if they need to sort out their priorities.
    I checked a few of their reviews. And I think they should have brought Draft:Jasmin Champagne to admin attention immediately, even if they weren't sure what to do with it (which I wasn't either, but I contacted OS and it was promptly suppressed). It's hard to explain why now because TLA likely doesn't remember what it was, and I couldn't bring it up until I heard back from OS. But Primefac is an OS. I trust they will review and advise accordingly. I do not mean to recommend they should not be a reviewer, as I am unsure as to the expectations that are realistic for this project. I am sharing feedback because it looks like that's what's happening here. I am sure TLA will do fine with more experience. — Usedtobecool ☎️ 14:57, 29 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Yes, I did mean Justin Jin (entrepreneur). Thanks for catching my error, @Usedtobecool. S0091 (talk) 15:10, 29 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I'm tla, sorry for using the third person. It's only because I was replying to S0091. I hope you'll consider my feedback—which, sorry again, is mostly criticism as I reread it—even if you end up ultimately not agreeing with all of it. Regards! — Usedtobecool ☎️ 16:30, 29 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    That was definitely a contentious AfD. Most of my comments there were with Jeraxmoira (we had disagreements of the relationship between interviews and independence), I decided to stop replying after a while because it got heated and I stopped caring to be honest. I also just noticed that it's at a deletion review, and it looks like it'll likely be relisted in a few days. Well this is not a place to argue again, but I'd like to justify my statements (admittedly went overboard at that one and some others):
    1. The language and origin of the sourcing isn't a technical policy, and the African origin sourcing was obviously reasonable.
    2. I disagreed with your reasoning to change Billboard to unreliable. Don't know why it's the Argentina edition, but I wanted to stick to policy and not speculate.
    3. I feel WP:ENT should apply (comedic elements), but even if it doesn't, WP:GNG was met with my source assessment. I remain by that, though some of it is borderline.
    4. I think the draft was previously deleted as G11? If I recall correctly I don't think it qualified as that.
    As I've already commented a lot there, if it does go back to AfD I won't participate. Unless I change my vote to Draftify because this (imo) only be a WP:TOOSOON case.
    I don't recall what Draft:Jasmin Champagne was, I'm guessing it was some diary entry? Perhaps I only read half of it and declined, I see that you marked it for G11 so was there some advertising content at the bottom that I missed?
    I have no problem with the criticism. Lots of experienced and respected editors have shown up here to look at my work and that's great. I disagree with some of it and it admittedly can get tough, but it is helpful in the long run. TLAtlak 16:43, 29 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    TLA, can you expand upon "I wanted to stick to policy and not speculate." in #2? S0091 (talk) 17:02, 29 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I'm tla,
    1. I think you're hung up on how foreign language sources are as good as English language sources for use on Wikipedia, whereas my point wasn't language. My point was that a notable Canadian should have coverage in Canada and maybe the USA if they're already getting covered in Argentina, Nigeria and Holland. Because stuff like that happens when, for the express purpose of using on Wikipedia, they shop around the world for legitimate-looking and sounding websites and magazines that you can buy coverage in.
    2. You need to explain this further.
    3. ENT applies for people whose claim to notability stems for ENT activities, not everyone who's ever done anything ENT in their life. Businesspeople involved in producing art and entertainment are not themselves artists or entertainers, they're businesspeople. You said ENT#2 might apply, which says the contributions need to unique, prolific or innovative. Which attribute would you apply to Jin's comedy?
    4. Not sure what draft you're talking about.
    I will leave it to Primefac to speak about Draft:Jasmin Champagne, or not. — Usedtobecool ☎️ 19:51, 29 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    An unsourced draft about a minor should always be sent to oversight to be dealt with privately. Primefac (talk) 20:21, 29 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    This is about Draft:Jasmin Champagne? It looks like I said Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a "passion project" or "digital journal", sorry. so I'm guessing it was written by a minor with some personal content. Can't quite recall. If I come across something like that in the future I'll make sure to SD nom it and go to oversight. TLAtlak 15:20, 30 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    @Usedtobecool should we take this to a talk page? I don't want this to be a reiteration of an AfD. TLAtlak 15:21, 30 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    We don't have to, for my benefit. If you want to, I'm game too. Either way, we can stop discussing the AFD here, sure. If you'd like to add a final response, feel free. Best, — Usedtobecool ☎️ 16:24, 30 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I would like an answer to #2 from a source/AfD agnostic perspective. Which policy and what is meant by "speculate". S0091 (talk) 20:55, 30 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    What I mean is Usedtobecool mentioned in the AfD that Billboard AR shouldn't be reliable because it calls an obscure 17-year-old Canadian a "mogul". TLAtlak 14:40, 1 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I think what you are calling speculation is the standard evaluation and analysis that should occur with any source, even if "green lit" because context matters and exceptional claims require exceptional sources. You might find Talk:Arrests of Ulysses S. Grant an enlightening example of the evaluation of several reputable sources by some of Wikipedia's most experienced editors. S0091 (talk) 18:51, 1 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Speaking of Billboard AR, @Novem Linguae how did Billboard AR become a green lit source in your script? It wasn't a couple weeks or so ago and as far as I can tell, while their charts meet the WP:CHART criteria there's been no discussion about their articles/reviews. WP:WikiProject Albums/Sources is specific that Billboard US is generally reliable but makes no claim for other countries. Other countries are under different ownership and not the same editorial body as US. S0091 (talk) 19:50, 1 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Just FYI, TLA added Billboard AR and many other Nigerian/Non-Nigerian URLs to this script. See Special:Diff/1211746164 and Special:Diff/1214639619. – DreamRimmer (talk) 00:00, 2 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Usually I would think it is safe to assume that the same brand in different languages is the same content and editorial process. But to play it safe, I'll go ahead and remove the non-US Billboards here. –Novem Linguae (talk) 01:28, 2 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    The reviews seem promising, and I think it's time to remove the review limit restriction. Nonetheless, I concur with S0091; it's important not to rush through things and request NPR until you've spent another month or two reviewing AfC submissions and participating in AfDs. – DreamRimmer (talk) 13:20, 28 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Thanks, DreamRimmer. TLAtlak 16:49, 29 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    • TLA has been CU blocked. Even if they become the exception and manage to return anytime soon, they should not be doing AFC/NPP for a while. Too many red flags, and they had some work to do in understanding PAGs and norms too. Usedtobecool ☎️ 17:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
      And not for being the sock, but for being a new sockmaster. Sigh. -- asilvering (talk) 23:41, 7 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
      I did not have that on my AFCP bingo card... Primefac (talk) 11:45, 8 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    Australian/Tasmanian flora edit

    I noticed a number of Australian/Tasmanian flora articles recently, however I just noticed that they add all single article accounts, and all make the same weird format error of periods after the references, or missing. They are also all quite reasonable submissions. So now I'm wondering is this a sock, or some organised project with the similarities maybe coming from some example? Anyone remember any blocked user being involved with this type of subject before or aware of any project running this? Examples: Poa clivicola, Diplaspis cordifolia, Schoenus tesquorum and Euchiton traversii. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 13:33, 3 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    I would suspect a class assignment to create flora articles; it would be a bit odd for one person to create four accounts just to create four articles. As you say, any formatting error similarities are likely because they were going off a standard template or similar.
    That being said, I could be completely wrong, so if folk do remember anything about a sockmaster that fits this bill, I'm happy to run checks. Primefac (talk) 19:16, 3 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I agree that a class assignment, editathon, or some kind of benign explanation is more likely than sockpuppetry here. Luckily, species is not a topic area that usually attracts sockpuppets. –Novem Linguae (talk) 06:21, 4 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    Colpo grosso a Berlino edit

    Caught the draft creator moving their own AfC draft to mainspace after it was declined (see diff). Can somebody from AfC decide the best course of action on this? Does this break any guideline or policy? Pilaz (talk) 06:08, 4 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    Per WP:DRAFTOBJECT, no, there's nothing wrong with their actions. For someone on AFCH as a probationary member though... maybe. Primefac (talk) 06:13, 4 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Draftspace is optional so that's allowed. WP:NPP will check it and determine the next course of action. It could end up at WP:AFD, or it might be fine. That's the risk folks take when they decide to skip draftspace.
    In regards to them being a probationary AFC reviewer, I think it's good that they moved it rather than using the AFC helper script to do an official AFC accept. If they had done the latter and put an official AFC stamp of approval on it, that would look WP:INVOLVED. But using move makes it an action unrelated to AFC, in my opinion. –Novem Linguae (talk) 06:19, 4 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    P.S. Looks like the move is two months old, and predates their AFC reviewer application and approval. –Novem Linguae (talk) 06:25, 4 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Blargh... really need to check timestamps on these sorts of things. Thanks. Primefac (talk) 06:32, 4 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    User:CandyCola4444 edit

    This user is making some genuine efforts to write content but is just getting knocked back on Draft:Gauda conquest of Kamarup. I'm not saying this was the wrong decision but is there any way we can we be more encouraging and supportive rather than just declining the good faith submissions? I've left some suggestions on Draft talk:Gauda conquest of Kamarup — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:49, 6 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    I used to add more custom comments but I found it took a lot of effort with little indication it helped (like in this case they took no actions from your helpful input). I find the bullet point list of the basics (in-depth, reliable, secondary, independent) on that decline is clear indication of what they need to consider. I also welcome users if they are new, add a Teahouse link, and answer 99% of questions asked on my talk page. I decided (IMHO) it was better to spend my time reviewing/improving other submissions so more submitters got help/feedback quicker than fewer getting more custom advice that was mostly ignored. In an ideal world of enough reviewers and a minimal !queue yes I agree custom help is preferable, but we are far from that place. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 14:45, 9 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    Have AFCH add Template:Uncategorized to drafts with no categories? edit

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    There's a software patch written and ready to go for this but there's some objections in the ticket. Let's hash it out here and get this patch un-stuck. How should the AFC helper script handle uncategorized drafts?

    • Option A - don't do anything (status quo)
    • Option B - offer a check box. if ticked by the reviewer during acceptance, add an {{Uncategorized}} template
    • Option C - automatically count categories and add {{Uncategorized}} if 0 categories

    Novem Linguae (talk) 13:21, 9 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    I said this on the patch, but I find zero reason a reviewer cannot add at least one category. I am fine being overruled, but there is a minimum amount of effort I would expect from a reviewer and "thinking of the most obvious category to place a draft in" is one of those efforts. If the consensus is that the option should at least be available, then I would rather a check box to at least force the reviewer to think about it before just clicking "accept". Primefac (talk) 13:28, 9 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Same, I don't find adding adding 1+ category difficult and think people should. There are some odd topics I have struggled a bit, but for 99% I don't find it hard. My preference would be that a reviewer has to either add a category (if not already one) or check the box to tag uncategorized to make it a positive decision and thus encourage adding some. Option A is a terrible option; Option B I think should only be taken if you can't accept without at least one cat or checking the box; Option C is the most sensible if you don't want to force reviewers to do anything; Option D make it mandatory to have at least one would also be fine with me. I also think adding {{Improve categories}} if only 1 is also sensible. KylieTastic (talk) 14:22, 9 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I always add at least a couple of cats, but I don't always add them using the helper script, sometimes I accept the draft first and then do the cats, projects, general CE, etc. So from my point of view it makes little difference which of those options you go with.
    I do agree with Primefac, though, that adding at least one cat really isn't too much to ask, and should be seen as part of the job. So whatever we do, let's at least not encourage ignoring cats. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 14:23, 9 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I'll note that NPP made the "gnoming" steps of the flowchart (categories, WikiProjects, maintenance tags, stub tags) optional a year or two ago. The idea is that we already ask patrollers to do a ton of work including checking copyright, checking for CSD, checking for notability, verifying title, verifying it isn't a duplicate article, etc. Complex workflows have disadvantages. Tags like {{Uncategorized}} and {{Improve categories}} call in reinforcements to assist with this rather specialized work. –Novem Linguae (talk) 14:29, 9 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    My current read of this discussion is that folks prefer Option A. That is, AFC helper script to not provide any support for adding {{Uncategorized}} or {{Improve categories}}, because we do not want to make it easy to skip adding categories. Will close the patch and ticket as declined on Monday unless there are further comments over the weekend. –Novem Linguae (talk) 22:52, 12 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Have AFCH allow quick CSD tagging? edit

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Another stuck patch. Right now, AFCH will provide a "Nominate the submission for speedy deletion" check box for G12 copyright only. Would we like to expand this to include any other CSDs?

    • CSD G3 when selecting "van" (vandalism)
    • CSD G10 when selecting "attack" (attack page)
    • CSD G11 when selecting "adv" (advertisement)

    If G3 and G10 support is added, we will need to split "attack" and "van" into separate decline reasons. (Currently, "attack" is just an alias/redirect to "van". This split would be easy to do.). –Novem Linguae (talk) 14:23, 9 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    Assuming these are like the existing cv one (just offing an option that you have to tick) I see no reason not to add them or require things to be split for this to be valid and helpful. It is just offing a possible useful action that you can also just ignore. However, I think for other reasons the attack should be split with a much stronger worded message and should be a reject reason anyway. KylieTastic (talk) 14:57, 9 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    To be honest, I'm not sure AFCH strictly needs this, as it's essentially duplicating functionality that I expect most people would already be using Twinkle for. (I certainly don't bother with an AfC decline when I tag a draft for G3 deletion.) However, if a dev feels like it would be an easy addition, and is willing to take it on, I see no reason not to support — I'm sure someone else could find it useful. TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 23:09, 9 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I'm on the fence. I am slightly concerned that if we add a G11 option it will encourage its use too much. Draft space can have some heavily-promotional content in it, because after all that's why it's a draft and not publicly visible. I guess another way of putting it is that we don't have quite the "need" to nuke a promotional page, and now that I type this out I'm not sure we really should be anyway; much easier to try to help someone improve a promo draft than tell them they have to start from scratch. Primefac (talk) 11:28, 10 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I've pondered this for a bit, but do you think the community might be overzealous in G11 tagging draft pages? I've considered the same thing as you, that it's easier to improve a promo draft than start from scratch. I find it tough sometimes to make this decision when processing CSD tags in draft space. Sometimes I think it'd be better if we were more patient with drafts that start out promotionally. Writing in an encyclopedic tone isn't easy for everybody right off the bat. But it's a difficult balance, so I'd be interested in hearing any more thoughts you have on the matter. Hey man im josh (talk) 11:38, 10 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I don't have any hard data, just anecdotal evidence, but I would say probably 3-4 times a week we have someone come in to WP:IRCHELP asking why their draft was deleted, and almost always it's because of a G11 tag. Some are genuine UPE and a lot are in the GARAGEBAND category, but a non-negligible number have a not-unreasonable number of sources. It's a lot easier to tell someone how to clean up the language when there's still text on the page! Primefac (talk) 11:44, 10 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I usually leave most 'adv' non G11 tagged as they are still just non public drafts so I usually just WP:AGF. However, I would say in most cases someone else will tag G11 anyway. I do think they are overused in draft space, but I assumed I was just the exception as most are deleted if tagged so at least two people are in agreement. KylieTastic (talk) 12:45, 10 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    With comments like To be honest, I'm not sure AFCH strictly needs this and I'm on the fence being mixed with I see no reason not to add them, my current read of this discussion is "no consensus". Will close the patch and ticket as declined on Monday unless there are further comments over the weekend. –Novem Linguae (talk) 22:56, 12 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    help with reference edit

    This submission is not adequately supported by reliable sources. Reliable sources are required so that information can be verified. If you need help with referencing, please see Referencing for beginners and Citing sources. GeorgeBergerson (talk) 00:52, 11 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    This board is for discussion about the operation of the AFC process. Please ask for assistance at the AFC help desk. 331dot (talk) 00:55, 11 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    Query edit

    Hello, AFC folks,

    I just noticed that Shewasafairy was reecently blocked and on their talk page they have discussions with editors whose drafts they reviewed. They even kept a log, User:Shewasafairy/AfC log. But I can't find their name on the AFC Participants list. Was their name recently removed or were they never an accepted AFC reviewer? I was wondering if the drafts they looked at should be re=reviewed. However, I can see that I'm tla was recently removed from the Participants list so they were an approved reviewer but they also had a log, User:I'm tla/AfC log that I thought might be reviewed in case there was any paid editing occurring. Thanks. Liz Read! Talk! 04:59, 11 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    I failed to scroll up to see this discussion with I'm tla above this one. But, honestly even though you all know about the block/sock issuesfor a few days now, my concerns remain. Thank you. Liz Read! Talk! 05:03, 11 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    As I just said elsewhere, Shewasafairy got AFC rights automatically when they were granted NPR here.
    Yes, we've not really got around to discussing rechecking their usage of advanced rights, that I am aware of. There are multiple editors involved, so everyone may be individually doing spot checks, which I have done a few of myself. Best, — Usedtobecool ☎️ 06:39, 11 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I've quickly gone through Shewasafairy's acceptances. A bit of a mixed bag, a few borderline cases, a couple of solid ones, and some that have either been approved by NPP or are awaiting patrol (most were autopatrolled by Shewasafairy). One I moved back to drafts, as it seemed like the subject might be notable, but the sources just weren't there. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 07:05, 11 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I just went through and unpatrolled any suspicious Shewasafairy NPP patrols (NCORP, BLPs). I'm tla was not an NPP. I think this is sufficient to make sure that all of the articles get scrutiny. AFC accepts will get checked again by a random NPP so should be safe to leave alone. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:34, 11 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    AFC helper script update edit

    I deployed a small update to the AFC helper script tonight. The two main things in this deploy are 1) there is now a check box to copy over comments to the talk page, and 2) better autofill of a person's name in the DEFAULTSORT box on the accept screen. I have a bunch more in the pipeline. Will keep you posted. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:41, 11 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    I have been following via the storm of git emails recently. Good work at getting some progress on these outstanding issues. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 09:13, 11 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    There's an issue where AFCH is adding the section header without a line break. I've opened a ticket. TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 00:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Sorry, that come off as a bit curt, didn't it? Thanks to the AFCH maintainers who implemented the copying of comments to the talk page; I think a lot of reviewers, including me, will be pleased to hear it! TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 00:11, 12 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Your message was fine. Thanks for quickly reporting on GitHub. I think I got the fix out in 13 minutes from when I got the GitHub email :) –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:39, 12 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    Upcoming features edit

    Howdy folks. I'm excited to announce I've written AFC helper script patches for several frequently requested tickets. You can visit the patches and check out the screenshots to make sure you like them. If you're a techie (cc SD0001), you can click on the "Files changed" tab to see the code I wrote and review it. I plan to merge and deploy these patches on Monday.

    So far I've cleared out the queue of other people's patches, cleared out the queue of tickets marked easy, and am about halfway through clearing out the high priority (frequently requested) queue. Will probably work on AFCH for another week to finish clearing out the high priority queue, then switch to a new project. There is no shortage of programming stuff to work on in the movement.

    Anyway, I hope y'all like these patches. If you want me to adjust anything, let me know before Monday. Thank you. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:47, 19 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    Thanks so much for doing these, NL. I know a lot of reviewers have been wanting these features for years. — Ingenuity (talk • contribs) 00:56, 19 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Seconding Ingenuity — thank you so much! TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 01:23, 19 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Good work, sorry but real-life issues mean I probably won't get time to review the code. KylieTastic (talk) 07:28, 19 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Been a delight to see this getting processed. Primefac (talk) 11:59, 19 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Thanks all. The new features are live. Please keep an eye out for bugs. P.S. An additional feature not mentioned above is the TurnItIn copyright detection warning will now show (it was broken before). –Novem Linguae (talk) 08:19, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    Newsletter? edit

    Cheers Novem Linguae. As the subscribe feature is a new preference we really could do with a way to tell people that it is now an option especially as we know from past discussions that a lot don't even notice the preferences. I'm not sure how many reviewers even watch this page. KylieTastic (talk) 09:17, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Cool stuff @Novem Linguae! @KylieTastic and others, what you think about a newsletter? S0091 (talk) 16:22, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    @S0091 by newsletter I assume you mean a mass message? Why not, we've never sent many. A short post highlighting the tool improvements and maybe a general poke about the backlog growing and any other news? KylieTastic (talk) 17:24, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Yes, mass message. I don't mind trying to do one but will need some help. Is there an example of one from the past somewhere? S0091 (talk) 17:35, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Wikipedia:New pages patrol/Newsletter#Newsletter archive may provide some ideas, templates, etc. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:50, 24 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    Double signature bug edit

    • Possible minor issue Novem Linguae... I just noticed on a couple of declines an extra signature on the user talk page messages (this and this) however the first I did after your announcement this morning this does not have the issue, so it appeared after changing my preferences (I enabled 'Do not add pages to watchlist' and 'Receive a notification....'). I played in my sandbox with different settings but it didn't happen so maybe it's only on new pages or something? Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 20:58, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
      That's probably the discussiontools API (which I use for subscriptions) auto adding a signature. Definitely a bug. Will work on fixing. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:51, 24 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    New page patrol May 2024 Backlog drive edit

    New Page Patrol | May 2024 Articles Backlog Drive
    • On 1 May 2024, a one-month backlog drive for New Page Patrol will begin.
    • Barnstars will be awarded based on the number of articles patrolled.
    • Barnstars will also be granted for re-reviewing articles previously reviewed by other patrollers during the drive.
    • Each review will earn 1 point.
    • Interested in taking part? Sign up here.
    You're receiving this message because you are a new page patroller. To opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself here.

    DreamRimmer (talk) 16:18, 17 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    Note: If you are an AfC reviewer and don't have NPP rights but believe you can help out, please check out the granting requirements for NPP. If you meet the criteria, you are welcome to apply at WP:PERM/NPP. Thanks :) – DreamRimmer (talk) 16:32, 17 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    Using Db-afc-move for articles edit

    Does anyone ever use {{Db-afc-move}} on articles rather than redirects? For example if there is a really good draft and a really poor article and you want to replace the mainspace article with the draft? The answer to this will determine how I write the documentation at Template:Db-afc-move/doc (which I recently edited), and may also affect the current patch I'm writing for WP:AFCH. At the moment my patch is only for tagging redirects. My concern is {{Db-afc-move}} is a type of WP:G6, which I think is normally only used on redirects. But the "non-controversial maintenance" clause is broad enough that it could arguably be applied to articles if the deletion were completely non-controversial. If {{Db-afc-move}} cannot be used on articles, then I guess the alternatives could be anything from a copy-paste move with attribution, to a page swap, to asking an admin to G6 it for you. Thanks. –Novem Linguae (talk) 22:35, 18 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    No never! Surely that should never happen, if someone wants to improve an existing "really poor article" they should do so in place. KylieTastic (talk) 07:25, 19 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Wouldn't have even crossed my mind to do so. I would decline that 'really good draft' on the basis that a published article exists, directing the author to edit that. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 07:29, 19 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    We have exists as a decline reason; I don't think we should be G6'ing articles just to move a draft over them, since as you say there are a half-dozen alternate options. Primefac (talk) 11:58, 19 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Thanks all. I'm glad I asked. Will fix the template documentation to say redirects only. –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:39, 19 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    Are History Merges necessary? edit

    I posted a question at VPM about copy-pastes, and am now asking here about an unexpected answer that I got. I have from time to time complained that the message that the history merge template suggests be given to the user who did the copy-paste is mealy. It doesn't say not to do copy-pastes, only that move is better. I still think that there should be a Level 2 caution, at least in cases where the reviewer thinks that the editor should have known better. However, I said that we would like to minimize the amount of work done by admins in doing history-merges. I got an answer that is, essentially, that history merges are not needed, and no admin work is needed, because either a talk page template, or a note in an edit summary, is sufficient. So my question is: Are history merges no longer required? It was always my understanding that if a reviewer encounters a draft and an article that are the same, they should check whether they have the same authors, and, if not, request a history merge. I hope that this is not considered a stupid question. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:46, 19 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    It's not a stupid question, and not to be too rude to the individual in question but saying "I don't know anything about this but..." and then proceeding to give an opinion is... problematic. Yes, there are many options for attribution, but histmerge is the easiest and leaves the least amount of room for ambiguity and screwing things up. Request histmerges... I don't mind! ^_^ Primefac (talk) 19:20, 19 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Thank you. And I still think that copy-pasting of drafts into article space should be discouraged. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:54, 19 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Not that I handle a ton of histmerges (apparently I'm 8th for the year?) but I also never mind them. If anything, I think we don't see as many of them as we should. I have no issue processing the less complicated histmerges and I'm interested in the opportunity to do more and get good at the harder ones. Hey man im josh (talk) 20:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    And histmerges are an admin task that very seldom makes other editors angry. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:04, 19 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    Suggestion after watching the help page and AFC article conversations for a while edit

    I've been watching the help page and some AFC conversations a while... one recurrent theme is that for a common type of article that they are creating (=aren't given presumed notability by an SNG) the creators don't understand that for their article the wp:notability requirement is not about the common meaning of notability, it's about having two published independent sources (sometimes one) which cover the topic of their article in depth. For somebody new to Wikipedia I don't think that they understand this from the explanations given, doubly so because the explanations are usually complicated by the (irrelevant-for-them) SNG possibilities. Would it be good to add something like this to explanations?:

    Thanks for working on your article. The subject of separate articles needs to meet Wikipedia's WP:Notability requirement which can be confusing. To meet this it needs to meet either meet the requirements of an applicable special notability guideline (which IMO is not an option for your subject) or meet WP:GNG, Wikipedia's sourcing-based General Notability Guideline. So, roughly speaking, to meet that requirement you need to include two independent published sources which cover the topic of your article in depth. So it's not about notability by the common meaning of the term, it's about finding two sources each of which meets all of those criteria. My suggestion is to look for and include those sources. If you are unable to find sources which meet all of those criteria, IMO it's best not to pursue creating a separate article for this subject. Happy editing!

    North8000 (talk) 00:27, 22 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    Where exactly are you proposing to add this? TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 00:30, 22 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I was more bringing it up for general discussion and am not sure I know the mechanics/tools well enough to formulate it well. But something that would be included in relevant decline messages and maybe boilerplate that can be pasted into relevant help page responses. Or a "if your subject does not meet a special notability guideline" section that can be linked to Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 00:37, 22 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    CSD tagging edit

    Hi. If a draft meets the criteria for CSD (for example, for G5), should the draft be tagged and declined, or can the submission templates be removed altogether? Thanks. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk|contribs) 01:43, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    Hey CanonNi, I'd recommend simply tagging the page without any further action. Declining the draft tends to cause template bloat on the page creator's talk page, which I like to avoid. If an administrator declines the CSD tag for whatever reason, the draft will simply remain in the queue for review as usual. TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 02:39, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I understand. Thank you! '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk|contribs) 02:43, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I would say that an exception would be for G12/copyvio, since AFCH has the option to tag the page along with the decline. Primefac (talk) 07:00, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Thank you for the clarification. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk|contribs) 07:26, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Actually, I do the opposite (and I'm not saying it's right, just what I do): I decline or reject the submission as I think fit, and then request speedy if it seems necessary. If the speedy gets declined for any reason, that means the draft has at least been removed from the pool. Yes, this does result in a decline notice on the submitter's talk page, but so be it. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 07:26, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Yeah, in thinking about it more, I don't think there's a single "best" way to deal with it. A decline probably has better information about why the draft itself wasn't sufficient (with tips to improve) while a CSD notice will simply tell them that the page fails one of our deletion criteria. On the other hand, G5 and G10 should not be declined, as those types of pages just need to be nuked outright per DENY etc. Primefac (talk) 07:38, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Fair. Although your mention of G5 raises a point: certain admins (without naming any names) don't like to action G5 requests unless the author has already been confirmed as a sock at SPI (or otherwise as a block evader), even if the case is pretty obvious (FanBeatles333 recreating a draft that the blocked BeatlesFan333 had previously created, that sort of thing). This is part of the reason why I treat the review and CSD separately, because I can never be 100% sure that the speedy will go through. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 07:51, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I'll name myself, because I'm one of these admins. I believe that's how it should be though. We shouldn't be performing G5 deletions unless we're sure the accounts are related. Admins unfamiliar with the LTAs wouldn't be familiar with all the signs and wouldn't feel comfortable acting without being sure. Side note, you'd be surprised how many G5 tags get added before a user has even been blocked as a sock. Hey man im josh (talk) 08:05, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I didn't have you in mind, but thanks for volunteering! :)
    Above my pay grade to suggest whether it's right or wrong to accept the type of G5 I'm referring to, all I know is that some admins readily accept, others consistently decline, which means it's a bit of a gamble to see which admin attends to it first.
    FWIW, my motivation in requesting G5 in cases which to me seem obvious is to avoid putting them through SPI which is often congested enough already. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 08:43, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I always decline/reject for two reasons: Apart for G5 the notices tend to give better information and I find it cuts down on the "why did you delete my article?"; Second to get it out of the !queue. Sometimes it takes hours to be deleted so just wastes peoples time. If people are submitting drafts that require a speedy then they clearly need more information so I'm not concerned at all with 'template bloat'. KylieTastic (talk) 08:36, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

    AFC history tool edit

    Sounds like Enterprisey is retiring or semi-retiring. Before he left, he gave me access to the AFC history tool, and I went ahead and made some updates. So far I've modernized the code, added a feature where the URL always contains the username now (for easier linking), and the browser forward and back buttons now keep a proper history. I'm open to more suggestions if y'all think of anything else. –Novem Linguae (talk) 10:54, 24 April 2024 (UTC)Reply