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Linking in ledes for network-owned stations edit

This one has been annoying me for awhile, as it is likely that the need to follow established practices are unintentionally winding up with kludge in the introductory paragraphs of articles.

It has usually been general practice in the introductory paragraph for any article about a network-owned station to say, for example, "KTVU is owned and operated by the network's Fox Television Stations division alongside San Jose-licensed independent outlet KICU-TV (channel 36)". Shouldn't it already be intuitive that the station is already network-owned when listing the network-owned station group?

This also presents a more obvious problem for duopoly partners: for example, "[WPSG] is owned by the CBS News and Stations group alongside KYW-TV (channel 3), a CBS owned-and-operated station." My most recent edit to WPSG partially restored an earlier edit by Sammi Brie that addressed this problem; it should be acceptable at the very least to say "alongside CBS outlet KYW-TV" if not more grammatically appropriate. Nathan Obral • he/him • tc • 20:53, 22 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

James Morton (baker) nominated for deletion edit

Link: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/James Morton (baker). George Ho (talk) 23:50, 24 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Treatment of Display resolution, Graphics display resolution and Computer display standard edit

I've started a discussion about how to handle these seemingly overlapping articles. Input appreciated. —DIYeditor (talk) 11:50, 25 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Good article reassessment for Michael Larson edit

Michael Larson has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Ten Pound Hammer(What did I screw up now?) 19:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Requested move at Talk:Marvel Studios Animation#Requested move 27 February 2024 edit

 

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Marvel Studios Animation#Requested move 27 February 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:58, 27 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

RuPaul's Drag Race, season 7 episodes edit

Sharing a list of recently created entries for Drag Race, season 7 episodes:

Not sure if any qualify for appearance in the Did You Know section of the Main Page, but article improvements are welcome! Thanks ---Another Believer (Talk) 18:18, 27 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

As it stands, most of these don't pass WP:NTVEP and should be redirected back to the season article. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:28, 27 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'd take offense to indiscriminate redirecting, but welcome comments on individual article talk pages if there are notability concerns. Thanks! ---Another Believer (Talk) 20:14, 27 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
I agree with Favre, these articles need to be redirected. Outside of the lead, the last article consists of two two-line paragraphs. There is no reason why those four sentences cannot exist at RuPaul's Drag Race (season 7). -- Alex_21 TALK 20:16, 27 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
Again, then please state your concerns on a case-by-case basis, on respective pages, thanks. ---Another Believer (Talk) 20:19, 27 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
Why does it have to be case-by-case? You created this discussion that would summarize all discussion concerning these episodes. None of the above episodes meet notability standards. -- Alex_21 TALK 20:20, 27 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
I believe I'm creating valid stubs, and ask editors to assume good faith instead of trying to squash these immediately. I don't understand the rush, or the resistance to evaluating on a case by case basis. This is not an unreasonable ask. ---Another Believer (Talk) 20:24, 27 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
There's certainly no rush, which is why we have the draftspace to incubate stub articles such as these. No article in the above seems any different to the other, they all merit the same action, hence the centralized discussion. Editors telling you that they're too short isn't not acting in good faith, it's informing you of Wikipedia's article sizing guidelines. -- Alex_21 TALK 20:26, 27 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
I don't take issue with editors telling me the stubs are short. Stubs are indeed short by definition. I disagree with the assertion that the articles violate WP:NTVEP because the episodes have received sufficient secondary coverage. Each of these can and should be expanded further, not redirected. ---Another Believer (Talk) 20:39, 27 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
Several sentences is not significant coverage. And yes, they can be expanded further - in the draftspace. That's literally what the draftspace is for. -- Alex_21 TALK 08:01, 28 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
Per WP:NTVEP, Multiple reviews or other reliable, independent, non-trivial commentary demonstrate notability for a television episode. It looks like there are multiple reviews in these articles, from sources like The A.V. Club, Entertainment Weekly, Out, The Guardian and Vulture. To me this shows that standalone articles are appropriate. — Bilorv (talk) 22:32, 2 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
In that case, almost every episode of every show would be notable based on that alone. Just reviews for its airing does not a notable article make; where is the development, the production, anything relating to the actual episode outside of the articles being mostly just plot? -- Alex_21 TALK 23:22, 2 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
It's also generally worth noting that just because a topic is notable does not necessarily mean it warrants having its own page: WP:PAGEDECIDE. Sure, the episodes are notable pages just on reviews, but are they actually best covered as individual articles? Is the topic of the RPDG Season 7 best served by splitting the episodes into their own articles under the current coverage available? Are these episodes best covered as a group within the season article? ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 00:01, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
"... but are they actually best covered as individual articles?" Yes! I'm confident these episodes have received significant coverage, and frankly I'm a bit disappointed at the obstacles being placed in front of me as I try to address an obvious content gap, especially form the perspective of LGBT culture and history. Each of these articles can be expanded to include details about production, ratings, and reception, including commentary related to fashion, design inspirations, performance assessments, pop culture references, how the episode fits within the context of the series and Drag Race franchise overall, etc. If you aren't interested in collaborating and improving the entries, fine, but there's no need to kill these just because they are not GA quality from the start. Again, if you assess sourcing for a specific episode and are concerned about notability, then you're welcome to start a discussion on the respective talk page. I'd love to get an episode entry promoted to Good article status, if anyone's interested in collaborating. If so, hit me up! Thanks! ---Another Believer (Talk) 00:26, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Each of these articles can be expanded Fantastic, that's exactly what the draftspace is for! Do you oppose that? Nobody at all has suggested they be "killed", I'm not sure where you're assuming that bad faith from. -- Alex_21 TALK 00:40, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
There's no need to move these valid entries into the draft space. I'm done going in circles, going back to building the encyclopedia now. ---Another Believer (Talk) 00:44, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Very well. If there's no further objections from other editors, they can be moved into the space designed for expansion and creation. -- Alex_21 TALK 01:14, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
No, draftspace is not for topics that have demonstrated notability. Take a look at WP:DRAFTIFY. Improvements to such topics are made in mainspace (unless TNT level, which this isn't as all the content is usable). I object to moving to draftspace. — Bilorv (talk) 14:29, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
almost every episode of every show – I've always been skeptical of this argument. I'll use The A.V. Club as an example here since it has more episode reviews than most places. Let's use their reviews from March 23, 2015, around the time of the episodes listed above. There are 7 shows covered as individual episodes: House of Cards, Bloodline, RuPaul's Drag Race, Better Call Saul, Bates Motel, WWE Monday Night RAW, and The Price Is Right (which was a one-off review, but I'll count it anyways). Using The Futon Critic's listings for that day, I count 58 new episodes released, implying that, as a very rough estimate, only about 12% of shows were getting episode-level reviews. That's not "almost every episode".
Regarding PAGEDECIDE: I think there is value in episode-level coverage for two reasons. First, it's very easy for quality to vary between episodes, and that detail would likely disappear at the season level. Second, when television is reviewed episode-by-episode, it would be very hard to combine those reviews into a coherent, WP:NOR-compliant summary of the season. In fact, I'd argue that episodes, not seasons, are the better way to cover reception for shows not released all at once to critics, as most reviews of the "season" (such as those that Metacritic and Rotten Tomatoes mostly use to calculate their scores) cover only the first few episodes. I think American Horror Story: Murder House (a GA!) shows this problem pretty well, but it's present in most season articles I read. RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:23, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
It's worth also saying that this is a sample of U.S. shows, which have the highest (international) audiences and most attention. It should not be surprising that many U.S. TV shows that air week-by-week are notable on an episode-by-episode basis. This is very far from all episodes being notable. — Bilorv (talk) 14:38, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
I think for individual episodes, even if you can find two or three reviews, there still must be something fleshed out about the production to reasonably expand these to standalone articles. There are sources that routinely leave reviews (like AV Club) and while we don't necessarily dismiss those as applying to notability, that they are routine requires more than just those to justify the article. (To compare, film articles generally require a production section and do not rely solely on routine reviews from common critics).
Some TV shows get production info every epieose (like Better Call Saul), but when it comes to competitive reality shows, this rarely happens, typically with any production detail speaking to the entire season rather than any specific episode (for example, even with Survivor: Island of the Idols's infamous controversy, it was discussed in sources as a season factor rather than the specific episode). I have a difficult time accepting that these RuPaul Drag Race episodes really are notable individually because there is likely never going to be production info (everything being shot on a stage set) that doesn't apply to the season as a whole, and thus these should all be redirected and/or draftified until they can show reasonable means to expand production on an individual episode. Masem (t) 15:29, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
I like the idea of focusing on a single episode instead of just assuming these should be mass redirected. If someone wants to propose an individual article to be representative of others, I'd welcome a more thorough assessment and opportunity to put my money where my mouth is in terms of demonstrating notability of a single episode. ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:57, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • I concur that these should be merged to the main RuPaul's Drag Race (season 7) article. The episode summaries and viewership are already there and a couple generic lines on the letter grade one critic gave and a ranking another critic gave are not substantive enough to justify a standalone article. This sort of reception can also be included in the main page; without episode-specific production information, it's routine and not particularly informative. Reywas92Talk 16:33, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • I'm not going to reply to the above comment by an editor who I've asked to leave me alone many times. My offers stands: if someone will just pick an episode, I'll roll up my sleeves and do my best to demonstrate notability. What do you have to lose? ---Another Believer (Talk) 16:52, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    There's probably no issue for you yourself to pick an episode and demonstrate how well you can expand it to go beyond "routine reviews" for the episode. The issue raised is that you are just scraping the GNG (whereas the season clearly passes it), and thus why a standalone article is appropriate rather than containing the info within the main season page. Masem (t) 17:01, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    @Masem I was hoping someone else would select an episode, so I can't be accused of cherry-picking. ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:03, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Sigh. @Bgsu98: I see you've redirected. Would you be willing to revert for now, and select a single episode for me to work on? ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:07, 3 March 2024 (UTC) I've reverted your redirects, given this ongoing discussion and my offer to focus on a single episode of an editor's choosing. ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:17, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Seems you've selected And the Rest Is Drag. Thanks, I'll get to work! ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:31, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Why not work on all of them? Why did one in particular have to be picked? All nine barely scrape GNG. I therefore nominate they all be worked on - does that help? -- Alex_21 TALK 20:08, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

FYI, And the Rest Is Drag is currently up at AfD: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/And the Rest Is Drag - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:25, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Rotten Tomatoes: Are average scores no longer visible? edit

Now with the complete redesign for Rotten Tomatoes' website, it appears the average score/rating is no longer visible for TV seasons. See here for an example. It seems the average score is still visible for films (by clicking the RT percentage), but not TV. I've looked around to see if I was missing it, but cannot find it. I'm just looking for others to verify that it is indeed gone. If so, should we start scrubbing the average scores from reception sections since they can no longer be verified? Thanks. Drovethrughosts (talk) 13:17, 1 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

I'm confused. In the "Shogun" example you linked it shows the percentage next to the poster. I checked another. Here is "New Girl", and it shows a percentage of 95% approval. Now, I cannot access the individual reviews for "New Girl", but I can see that Shogun has 65 reviews and I can click them.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 14:59, 1 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Your New Girl link is for the show itself, but the Shogun link is for season 1, only the season pages have the individual reviews. The average score out of 10 is missing for TV pages now it seems, appears for films when click on the percentage, e.g. 3.4/10 here https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/madame_web. Indagate (talk) 15:54, 1 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
I've been a bit skeptical of RT's average ratings ever since "30 Rock: A One-Time Special" got a 31% score but an average rating of 7.33/10. Turns out that per their FAQs, the average rating only includes reviews that gave a specific score (stars, letter grade, etc.), as opposed to something like Metacritic where reviews without scores are rated by the site's staff. They only post average ratings if there are at least 5 reviews with scores*, but it doesn't say anything past that about how many reviews were used. I think it's slightly misleading to imply the total number of reviews were used to calculate the average rating, especially for smaller sample sizes (more common with TV seasons than films in my experience), so it may be best to discourage them. If RT is hiding the average ratings then that's just another reason to move away from them.
* ... at least, they claim this is what they do, but I'm not convinced. Example: Batman vs. Robin has 5 total reviews but only 3 reviews show scores, and yet an average rating is given. (The 30 Rock special also falls into this camp, as best as I can tell.) So I find these ratings even more dubious. RunningTiger123 (talk) 18:43, 1 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Good article reassessment for Gorilla (advertisement) edit

Gorilla (advertisement) has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 02:38, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Dexter (Dexter episode) edit

I was looking at Dexter (Dexter episode) and noticed a large amount of quotes in the Production section. Some using colored {{Quote box}} and some inside the caption of an image. While the article is at GA status, that was achieved back in 2009. Is this usage of quotes valid? Gonnym (talk) 17:15, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

No, this goes against MOS:QUOTE, and the large amount of quotes in prose is not good either. The information should almost all be rewritten in our own words, with the odd quote that can't be rewritten in neutral encyclopedic tone used inline (like "disgustingly huge" is currently). At a very quick glance the "Reception" section actually looks better at doing this: Wikipedia:Copyediting reception sections is the page to consult. — Bilorv (talk) 17:43, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Discussion at Template:Late night television in the United States edit

  You are invited to join the discussion at Template_talk:Late_night_television_in_the_United_States#Breadth_of_template, which is within the scope of this WikiProject. Spinixster (chat!) 07:26, 6 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Requested move at Talk:Hoshi no Kinka#Requested move 25 February 2024 edit

 

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Hoshi no Kinka#Requested move 25 February 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. – robertsky (talk) 14:14, 6 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Help with the clean-up of subtle vandalism on Asian TV shows coming from an IP range edit

Vandal(s) coming from an IP range (2405:4802:1800:0:0:0:0:0/37) have been conducting large amounts of subtle vandalism/incorrect information (including changing dates, times, number of episodes, etc.) on a number of television shows originating in Asia. TV shows are not my forte (especially Asian TV shows); however, it would be helpful if someone with this interest/experience could go through the recent edits this range has been making and clean them up. Thanks! (Link to edits from the range: Special:Contributions/2405:4802:1800:0:0:0:0:0/37) Wikipedialuva (talk) 00:30, 7 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Continuing Television programmes as a subsection edit

Were Looking for a WIDER range or views from people about the use of Continuing Television programmes strand in WIKI pages. A smaller discussion has started here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2024_in_British_television#Continuing_television_programmes but its clear were going to have to get a wider group of people since it may effect more than several hundred articles across several countries. Crazyseiko (talk) 18:31, 9 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Request for comment on reliability of entertainment coverage of the New York Post (including Decider and Page Six) edit

There is a request for comment on the reliability of entertainment coverage of the New York Post and its sub-publications Decider and Page Six. If you are interested, please participate at WP:RSN § RfC: Entertainment coverage of the New York Post (including Decider and Page Six). — Newslinger talk 22:09, 16 March 2024 (UTC) Edited to add Page Six — Newslinger talk 03:26, 17 March 2024 (UTC)Reply