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Case Created Last volunteer edit Last modified
Title Status User Time User Time User Time
Kamrupi Prakrit and Kamrupi dialect In Progress Bhaskarbhagawati (t) 43 days, 22 hours Robert McClenon (t) 18 days, 11 hours Robert McClenon (t) 18 days, 11 hours
Talk:Iraqi Turkmen#Language In Progress John Francis Templeson (t) 15 days, 19 hours MrClog (t) 2 days, 14 hours Selçuk Denizli (t) 15 hours
Talk:Håkon Wium Lie New Elmats (t) 2 days, 8 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 days, 22 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 days, 22 hours
Talk:Timeline of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections New JFG (t) 12 hours None n/a Slatersteven (t) 36 minutes

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Last updated by DRN clerk bot (talk) at 09:00, 19 May 2019 (UTC)



Contents

Current disputesEdit

Kamrupi Prakrit and Kamrupi dialectEdit

  – Discussion in progress.
Filed by Bhaskarbhagawati on 11:02, 5 April 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

The dispute is whether Kamrupi dialect/Kamrupi Prakrit/Kamrupi language/Western Assamese/Western Asamiya/Western Assam dialect/Undivided Kamrup district speech is a modern speech which lacks history or a old language with literature.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have discussed the issue extensively with them at:

How do you think we can help?

The issue started back in 2012, when original old article Kamrupi was divided into Kamrupi Prakrit and Kamrupi dialect by Chaipau and other uninvolved editors including Aeusoes, "citing lack of sources". Their chief argument was modern languages/dialects cannot have history. Since then i have added numerous sources but they dismisses and persistently deletes them, even though wp:rsn said they are reliable to use on the subject. I need wp:drn advice on the dispute.

Summary of dispute by ChaipauEdit

The dispute is not about whether Kamrupi dialect is a "modern speech which lacks history", but whether Kamrupi dialect and Kamarupi Prakrit are synonymous and equivalent.

That they are different was first pointed out by Kwamikagami around June/July 2012 and he tried to split the article in two 501823544. There was a brief tussle between Bhaskarbhagawati and Kwamikagami over moves, with Bhaskarbhagawati trying to move it to Kamrupi Language, which was eventually deleted. I agreed with Kwamikagami, and backed it up with two references (Sharma 1978 and Goswami 1970). Both these works are seminal and comprehensive enough and they name the two articles as they stand today. Bhaskarbhagawati at first tried to move the article, and then attempted a merge that failed. And since then his attempt has been to either insert "Kamrupi language" through citations in the lede or templates above it; or dig up references whose wordings seemingly implied that the modern dialect and the pre-1250 language are the same. Bhaskarbhagawati continues his attempt to merge the two, as he admitted here 890529414.

The phrasing "modern speech which lacks history" is very recent, just a few days old. Even if this was the issue, then all the modern dialects in the dialectal continuum included in the Kamatapuri lects and the Assamese language too deserve their share of history.

Chaipau (talk) 01:43, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Aeusoes1Edit

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I was brought to the issue in 2012 by a request for a third opinion regarding whether Kamrupi dialect and Kamarupi Prakrit are referentially equivalent. I teased out the mutual claims that Bhaskarbhagawati and Chaipau made, and realized that the former editor had relied on cherry picked, misunderstood, or unauthoritative quotes to claim that the two were the same. Reliable sourcing instead indicates that the 12th century Prakrit was likely a precursor language to what amounts to a modern-day dialect continuum. As is typical for dialect continua, a few language divisions have been made that are linguistically arbitrary, but still recognized as valid for sociohistorical reasons. In the same way that we don't consider Latin and Italian to be the same language, we wouldn't consider the Kamrupi dialect and Kamarupi Prakrit to be the same, even though they are clearly related, because of the political, cultural, and linguistic changes that have happened since the 12th century.

I explained this to Bhaskarbhagawati, but he disagrees with this assessment. He has so far not provided any convincing evidence that we should change the presentation in the article to reflect his belief that the two are referentially equivalent. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 17:22, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Talk:Kamrupi Prakrit, Talk:Kamrupi dialect discussionEdit

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

To support the statement that Kamrupi language do have history, i have provided references with full quotes from eminent local linguist, which are at [1] and [2].भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 11:36, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Sources by me (Bhaskarbhagawati)Edit

Keep discussion concise until moderated discussion begins. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:24, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Upendranath Goswami (1970), A Study on Kamrupi: A dialect of Assamese, Department of Historical Antiquarian Studies, Assam, p.4 Assam from ancient times, was known as Kamarupa till the end of the Koch rule (17th century) and ancient Kamarupa comprised the whole of North Bengal including Cooch-Behar, and the Rangpur and Jalpaiguri districts of Bengal. Its permanent western boundary is said to have been the river Karatoya in North Bengal according to the Kalika Purana and Yoginitantra, both devoted to geographical accounts of ancient Kamarupa. So the Aryan language spoken first in Assam was the Kamrupi language spoken in Rangpur, Cooch-Behar, Goalpara, Kamrup district and some parts of Nowgong and Darrang districts. As also put by K.L. Barua "the Kamrupi dialect was originally a variety of eastern Maithili and it was no doubt the spoken Aryan language throughout the kingdom which then included the whole of the Assam Valley and the whole of Northern Bengal with the addition of the Purnea district of Bihar”. It is in this Kamrupi language that the early Assamese literature was mainly written. Up to the seventeenth century as the centre of art, literature and culture were confined within western Assam and the poets and the writers hailed from this part, the language of this part also acquired prestige. The earliest Assamese writer is Hema Saraswati, the author of a small poem, Prahrada Caritra, who composed his verses under his patron, King Durlabhnarayana of Kamatapur who is said to have ruled in the latter part of the 13th century. Rudra Kandali translated Drone Parva under the patronage of King Tamradhvaja of Rangpur. The most considerable poet of the pre-vaisnavite period is Madhava Kandali, who belonged to the present district of Nowgong and rendered the entire Ramayana into Assamese verse under the patronage of king Mahamanikya, a Kachari King of Jayantapura. The golden age in Assamese literature opened with the reign of Naranarayana, the Koch King. He gathered round him at his court at Cooch-Behar a galaxy of learned man. Sankaradeva real founder of Assamese literature and his favourite disciple Madhavadeva worked under his patronage. The other-best known poets and writers of this vaisnavite period namely Rama Sarasvati, Ananta Kandali, Sridhar Kandali, Sarvabhauma Bhattacharyya, Dvija Kalapachandra and Bhattadeva, the founder of the Assamese prose, all hailed from the present district of Kamarupa. During Naranaryana's reign "the Koch power reached its zenith. His kingdom included practically the whole of Kamarupa of the kings of Brahmapala's dynasty with the exception of the eastern portion known as Saumara which formed the Ahom kingdom. Towards the west the kingdom appears to have extended beyond the Karatoya, for according to Abul Fasal, the author of the Akbarnamah, the western boundary of the Koch kingdom was Tirhut. On the south-west the kingdom included the Rangpur district and part of Mymensingh to the east of the river Brahmaputra which then flowed through that district," The Kamrupi language lost its prestige due to reasons mentioned below and has now become a dialect which has been termed as Kamrupi dialect as spoken in the present district of Kamrup.
  • Sukumar Sen, Ramesh Chandra Nigam (1975), Grammatical sketches of Indian languages with comparative vocabulary and texts, Volume 1, p.33 Assam from ancient times, was known as Kamarupa till the end of the Koch rule (17th century) and ancient Kamarupa comprised the whole of North Bengal including Cooch-Behar, and the Rangpur and Jalpaiguri districts of Bengal. Its permanent western boundary is said to have been the river Karatoya in North Bengal according to the Kalika Purana and Yoginitantra, both devoted to geographical accounts of ancient Kamarupa. So the Aryan language spoken first in Assam was the Kamrupi language spoken in Rangpur, Cooch-Behar, Goalpara, Kamrup district and some parts of Nowgong and Darrang districts. As also put by K.L. Barua "the Kamrupi dialect was originally a variety of eastern Maithili and it was no doubt the spoken Aryan language throughout the kingdom which then included the whole of the Assam Valley and the whole of Northern Bengal with the addition of the Purnea district of Bihar”. It is in this Kamrupi language that the early Assamese literature was mainly written. Up to the seventeenth century as the centre of art, literature and culture were confined within western Assam and the poets and the writers hailed from this part, the language of this part also acquired prestige. The earliest Assamese writer is Hema Saraswati, the author of a small poem, Prahrada Caritra, who composed his verses under his patron, King Durlabhnarayana of Kamatapur who is said to have ruled in the latter part of the 13th century. Rudra Kandali translated Drone Parva under the patronage of King Tamradhvaja of Rangpur. The most considerable poet of the pre-vaisnavite period is Madhava Kandali, who belonged to the present district of Nowgong and rendered the entire Ramayana into Assamese verse under the patronage of king Mahamanikya, a Kachari King of Jayantapura. The golden age in Assamese literature opened with the reign of Naranarayana, the Koch King. He gathered round him at his court at Cooch-Behar a galaxy of learned man. Sankaradeva real founder of Assamese literature and his favourite disciple Madhavadeva worked under his patronage. The other-best known poets and writers of this vaisnavite period namely Rama Sarasvati, Ananta Kandali, Sridhar Kandali, Sarvabhauma Bhattacharyya, Dvija Kalapachandra and Bhattadeva, the founder of the Assamese prose, all hailed from the present district of Kamarupa. During Naranaryana's reign "the Koch power reached its zenith. His kingdom included practically the whole of Kamarupa of the kings of Brahmapala's dynasty with the exception of the eastern portion known as Saumara which formed the Ahom kingdom. Towards the west the kingdom appears to have extended beyond the Karatoya, for according to Abul Fasal, the author of the Akbarnamah, the western boundary of the Koch kingdom was Tirhut. On the south-west the kingdom included the Rangpur district and part of Mymensingh to the east of the river Brahmaputra which then flowed through that district," The Kamrupi language lost its prestige due to reasons mentioned below and has now become a dialect which has been termed as Kamrupi dialect as spoken in the present district of Kamrup.
  • Kaliram Medhi (1936). Assamese Grammar and Origin of the Assamese Language. Sri Gouranga Press. p. 66. The language of the pre-Vaisnava and Vaisnava was the dialect of Western Assam while the language of the modern literature is that of Eastern Assam. This latter has been accepted by the common consent as the literary language of the country. Political power thus determined the centre of literary activity and also of the form of literary language.
  • Golockchandra Goswami (1982). Structure of Assamese. Department of Publication, Gauhati University. p. 11. The Eastern and Central dialects may be regarded as uniform to a certain extent in their respective areas, while Western Asamiya is heterogeneous in character, with large regional variations in the east, west, north and south. There must have been in early times as well, diverse dialects and dialect groups as at present. But then, there seems to be only one dominant literary language prevailing over the whole area; and that was Western Asamiya, the sole medium of all ancient Asamiya literature including the Buranjis written in the Ahom courts. This was because the centre of all literary activities in early times was in western Assam; and the writers were patronized by the kings and local potentates of that region. In the later period, however, even though the centre of literary activities moved to eastern Assam in the Ahom period, the writers continued to accept and use the existing model of the literary style of that time.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 18:56, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Volunteer Note - There has been extensive discussion, but not in the last three days. The editors should resume discussion on an article talk page. If discussion continues to be inconclusive, it can be resumed here. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:26, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but that's not going to work, Robert. There hasn't been discussion in the last three days because we've been discussing at ANI, where I had brought up the dispute because Chaipau and I believe that the real problem is disruptive practices on Bhaskarbhagawati's part. We have been tasked with using DRN as a gesture of good faith. Bhaskarbhagawati specifically has been explicitly instructed not to discuss the matter in the talk pages[3][4] until we go through the DRN process. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 21:42, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
@Robert McClenon: I agree with user:aeusoes1, for the exacting requirements set on us at ANI. Also, over the years, since 2012, we have been stuck with the central question because of the different incarnations it takes (the latest is the "lack of history" phrasing). DRN should probably avoid falling into this trap of never ending cycles of discussions. Chaipau (talk) 12:21, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
Robert McClenon and others, consider opening this thread, there are editing restrictions on article and talk, until issue is resolved here.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 11:33, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Ninth statement by moderatorEdit

I am about to create a talk page for this discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:33, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Discussion will be at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Kamrupi discussion. The usual rules apply. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. Do not reply to each other; address your discussion to me. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:40, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Please continue discussion at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Kamrupi discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:38, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Talk:Iraqi Turkmen#LanguageEdit

  – Discussion in progress.
Filed by John Francis Templeson on 13:25, 3 May 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

I have brought several sources that claim Iraqi Turkmani to be dialect Azeri to the article. That was reverted by user Selçuk Denizli, who claimed that these sources are not good enough. Then I gave an extensive information on the sources and showed that all of them are academic and written by well-known specialists. My colleague ignored this information and kept asserting that these sources lack credibility. The 3O, that basically supported me, didn't persuade him neither. The discussion reached the stalemate, Selçuk Denizli just repeats the same.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Discussion on the talk page, 3O

How do you think we can help?

Consider both point of views and explain who is right and who is wrong.

Summary of dispute by Selçuk DenizliEdit

Unfortunately User:JFT has one aim: to label the Iraqi Turkmen as "Azeri". Whilst I acknowledge that there are similarities with the Iraqi Turkmen dialect(S) and Azeri (after all, both are Turkic), this user refuses to understand that they are not one language. Officially, the Iraqi Turkic dialectS (which vary region to region) are collectively recognized as Turkmen not "South Azeri". They show traces of both Ottoman Turkish and Azeri Turkic (as well as additional influence from Arabic and Kurdish), as the majority of linguistic studies on the Iraqi Turkmen dialects show. Just because this user has found some sources (most of which are not peer-reviewed) saying that they speak "South Azeri" does not make it true, for I have found over 20 sources that do the same for "Turkish" (which I have not included in the article nor the talk page). The article already acknowledges that there are traces of Azeri Turkic, but this user will not stop until they portray the Iraqi Turkmen as Azeris. They have not contributed positively to the article at all; to repeat, their only action has been to add "Azeri" in the article whilst dismissing the realities of the past-to-present Iraqi Turkmen dialects and its legal status. Selçuk Denizli (talk) 13:14, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by ReconditeRodentEdit

I was responding to a WP:3O request. JFT had presented nearly a dozen reliable sources which classify the dialects spoken by the Iraqi Turkmen as "South Azeri", together with those spoken over the border in Iran. One researcher (Christiane Bulut) who has written extensively on the topic argues that the Iraqi Turkmen dialects are instead a transitional group between South Azeri and modern Turkish, which has imparted influence as a prestige language. Most Iraqi Turkmen, including Selçuk, do not see themselves as "Azeri" (Azerbaijani), and feel a far greater affinity to Turkey and the Turkish language, which is also the Iraqi Turkmen's official written language. (North Azeri (Azerbaijani), Turkish and the dialects spoken in Iraq and Iran all have degrees of mutual comprehensibility with one another.)

As I see it, my proposed phrasing for the start of the 'Language' section, which JFT seemed happy with, tried to account for all these viewpoints, while still making clear that the dialects are "generally referred to as South Azeri".

In any case, the article previously described the dialects as Turkish, which I can find no academic support for, so, while the discussion was still ongoing, I corrected that and some smaller things which I thought we'd agreed upon, while trying not to take a hard stance on the classification. Selçuk clearly didn't agree with part of this, and has since re-written the entire section, strongly emphasising the connection to Turkish (though most of the new content I would be happy to keep if better contextualised), almost exclusively citing Bulut (who they claim is more or less the only usable source), and removing any mention of South Azeri from the introduction. I was going to call an RfC but Selçuk had changed everything so much it would've taken a while to prepare and then this happened. ─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 17:33, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Talk:Iraqi Turkmen#Language discussionEdit

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
  • Volunteer Note - There has been discussion on the article talk page. The filing editor has not notified the other editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:24, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
I did, I have written them on the talk page of the article. If I had to write them in their own talk pages — sorry, I just didn't know. It is first time I make an appeal here. John Francis Templeson (talk) 11:11, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
Keep the discussion to a minimum before a volunteer has opened the resolution proces. --MrClog (talk) 18:46, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
  • Selçuk Denizli, I have repeatedly said that I acknowledge that there is no consensus on the Azeri-Iraqi Turkmani dialectical relation. And I asked you to bring any source you want (there is already a one), that show Iraqi Turkmani as independent language, so we could attribute both opinions and present them in the article. Actually this is what we did (see the variant of the colleague that represented the 3O). But your only concern is to avoid using the sources that describes Iraqi Turkmani as a dialect of Azeri. And you cannot, because all the sources that I brought are peer-reviewed and academic. Message to other users: If I didn't have to post this message here, please, excuse me and delete or move it. John Francis Templeson (talk) 15:39, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
You now say that you acknowledge there is no consensus; well, were you not seeking to describe the Iraqi Turkmen dialects as “Azeri” on 5 March 2019? If not, why are you seeking dispute resolution? The article already acknowledges that there are traces of Azeri Turkic, but you still continue. For over a month now, I have clearly shown (using studies on the Iraqi Turkic dialects) that it is influenced by several languages. Unfortunately, you have misused numerous sources by only quoting (or miss-quoting) parts of the studies that work in your favour; in addition, you seem to deceive users (perhaps unintentionally, I'm not quite sure yet) by describing these sources as "all peer-reviewed" – this simply is not true. You cannot fool us with an excessive number of footnotes which include non-linguistic sources or sources that are not peer-reviewed.
You incorrectly cited Hendrik Boeschoten as "Lars Johanson, Éva Ágnes Csató Johanson"; he lists the people/language as "Iraq Turkmens", not "Azerbaijanian" (as he does for Azerbaijan, Georgia and Iran), yet you failed to show this. Ethnologue is not peer-reviewed; even so, it lists "Turkmen" and "South Azeri" as two separate languages in Iraq (again you failed to show this). You have also taken Hidayet Kemal Bayatlı's work out of context; he calls the dialects Irak Türkmen Türkçesi ("Iraqi Turkmen Turkish") and says that Azeri is part of the eastern Oghuz branch of Turkic (p.329), but the Iraqi Turkmen dialects are of the western branch. Then you use non-linguistic sources e.g. Găzănfăr Pashai̐ev and ‎Mâhir Nakip which is about Iraqi Turkmen folklore.
So please be clear with your agenda. I have just looked at your edit history and can see that yesterday on the article Nader Shah you did something similar. You seem to keep pushing for Azerification; this is unacceptable. Selçuk Denizli (talk) 16:48, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
You have something to say about Gerhard Doerfer and Iranica also?) There are dozens of classifications of Oghuz group. Again, you chose the one, that you like, and presented it as only true. And let me repeat again. There are sources that classify Iraqi Turkmani as a dialect of Azeri. Whatever you do, there are. And the sources that don't accept this classification. What I try to do, is make both opinions present in the article. What you want to do, is present only opinions, that only talk about traces of Azeri in Iraqi Turkmani. I want the both opinions to be present, you want only one of them. Do you feel the difference? he lists the people/language as "Iraq Turkmens", not "Azerbaijanian" (as he does for Azerbaijan, Georgia and Iran), yet you failed to show this. I have always called the language of Iraqi Turkmens as Iraqi Turkmani. I know that and I didn't try to challenge this name. I don't know, what is strange for you here, the source clearly says that there is an Azerbaijanian-speaking group in Iraq that called Turkmens. And yes, the book comprises several articles on Turkic language, that are edited and compiled by Lars Johanson and Éva Ágnes Csató Johanson. While I had to mention the author of the article, but my mistake isn't that big. John Francis Templeson (talk) 17:31, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
The Iranica article is extremely vague about Iraq, only mentioning it by passing; in fact, you have not presented a single source which gives a detailed study on how Iraqi Turkmen dialects are part of Azerbaijani. I compromised by including Larry V. Clark and Hendrik Boeschoten, neither of which focus on Iraqi Turkmen and both of which give incorrect population estimates, for the 1957/58 census recorded 567,000 Turkmen whilst Clark mentions a figure of 200,000 and Boeschoten a figure of 400,000. I repeat again, none of these are a study on the Iraqi Turkmen dialects. Ironically, Christiane Bulut, who is by far the most important contemporary academic focusing on Iraqi Turkic, has been downplayed by you for sources that just happen to say "Azeri" in passing. This goes back to my initial concern with you: you do not seem to have an interest in the Iraqi Turkmen dialects; you simply want to brand it as "Azeri" and move on to the next article you wish to Azerify. Selçuk Denizli (talk) 17:51, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
Dostum, the talk goes more and more agressive. Let's stop here. Both of us expressed our opinions, so mediators will decide, who is right and who is wrong. If I'll be proven wrong, I won't continue and I hope you will do the same. OK? No need to get nervous. And I hope we will be friends, no matter the result is. I don't need enemies. John Francis Templeson (talk) 18:00, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
Sure, let's leave it there. If you were to provide detailed studies on the Iraqi Turkmen dialects that are peer-reviewed and support your arguments I would add them to the article.
Also, I must add, the reason why I decided to re-write the section was firstly because User:ReconditeRodent had edited the first paragraph without agreement on the talk page. In addition, discussions between the two of you regarding other sources, such as one published by Radio Free Europe, was just adding more unreliable sources to the discussion. We must stick to academic/linguistic sources that have been peer-reviewed and, where possible, the main focus should be on the Iraqi Turkmen dialects, not just studies mentioning Iraq in passing with one short sentence or phrase. Selçuk Denizli (talk) 18:24, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
  •   Volunteer note: I will open this resolution if no other volunteer has done so on Saturday. --MrClog (talk) 15:52, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
@MrClog, Selçuk Denizli, and ReconditeRodent: John Francis Templeson has received a 6 month community topic ban which will preclude further participation in the dispute, including this discussion User talk:John Francis Templeson#Topic banned from the Middle East, Caucasus region, Iranian peoples and Turkic peoples, broadly construed Nil Einne (talk) 21:09, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

First statement by moderatorEdit

@John Francis Templeson, Selçuk Denizli, and ReconditeRodent: I hereby open the resolution process. Before I dive into the content, please allow me to set up a few rules:

  1. Do not directly respond to each other. You are here because that apparently does not work.
  2. Comment only on content, not user conduct. So, this also means no personal attacks.
  3. Do not engage in edit wars. If you do engage in one, I'll have to make a report at WP:AN/EW.

Now, I have no extensive knowledge on the subject, but I do understand that the issue is whether or not the article should claim that Iraqi Turkmen are Azeri speakers. Both parties claim there are realiable sources that claim their side to be correct. Therefore, please briefly explain what you want the article to read and list a maximum of 10 reliable sources that support your understanding of the subject. If there are more, list the 10 best sources you have. Thank you. --MrClog (talk) 12:41, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

I'm going to ping @ReconditeRodent: as a reminder. --MrClog (talk) 13:54, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

First statement by editorsEdit

Do not engage with each other!
John Francis Templeson: I want to add statement that according to some sources Iraqi Turkmeni is considered as Azeri. And also I don't mind if there will be added that some others classify Iraqi Turkmeni as separate language (I know that Christiane Bulute has such position, I'll be grateful if Selçuk Denizli will add some more). On the whole, I want both opinion to be present here. Some sources that classify Iraqi Turkmeni as Azeri:

  • Bilgehan Atsız Gökdağ, Irak Türkmen Türkçesinin şekil bilgisine dair notlar (International Journal of Turkish Literature Culture Education Volume 1/1 2012 p. 113-123, Turkey).
  • Lars Johanson, Éva Ágnes Csató Johanson, The Turkic Languages (Routledge, 2015) — The Speakers of Turkic Languages by Hendrik Boeschoten.
  • Encyclopedia Iranica, AZERBAIJAN viii. Azeri Turkish
  • Gerhard Doerfer, İran'da Türkler (Türk Dili, TDK Yay., Sayı: 431, Kasım 1987)
  • Several Soviet and Russian sources, including БСЭ 1970, Азербайджанский язык; Азербайджанцы. (Grand Soviet Encyclopedia)
  • Prof. Dr. Hidayet Kemal Bayatlı, Irak Türkmen Türkçesi (T.C. İstanbul Üniversitesi Sosyal Bilimler Enstitüsü Türk Dili ve Edebiyatı Ana Bilim Dalı Yüksek Lisan Tezi). John Francis Templeson (talk) 17:08, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Selçuk Denizli: First of all, I must stress that I am an Iraqi Turkmen and was brought up speaking an Iraqi dialect of Turkic. Unfortunately, there are many websites which write incorrect information on our community (some incorrectly call us Azeris whilst others incorrectly group us under the Turkmen people of Turkmenistan -- mostly in passing, suggesting lack of knowledge). It is for these reasons that I have stressed the need to use sources by academics who are not only peer-reviewed but who are also specialists on the Iraqi Turkmen dialects or who focus on the legal status of minority languages in Iraq.

I have used the following sources (as well as several others) in the current version of the Iraqi Turkmen article, therefore, I wont repeat myself here (unless it is required). The 10 sources providing the most in-depth information on the Iraqi Turkmen, including dialects, official status, education, and media and literature are:

Dialects:

  • Bulut, Christiane (2000), "Optative constructions in Iraqi Turkmen", in Göksel, Aslı; Kerslake, Celia (eds.), Studies on Turkish and Turkic Languages, Otto Harrassowitz Verlag, ISBN 3-447-04293-1
  • Johanson, Lars (2001), Discoveries on the Turkic Linguistic Map (PDF), Svenska Forskningsinstitutet i Istanbul
  • Johanson, Lars (2006), "Historical, cultural and linguistic aspects of Turkic-Iranian contiguity", in Johanson, Lars; Bulut, Christiane (eds.), Turkic-Iranian Contact Areas: Historical and Linguistic Aspects, Otto Harrassowitz Verlag
  • Bulut, Christiane (2007), "Iraqi Turkman", in Postgate, J.N. (ed.), Languages of Iraq: Ancient and Modern, British School of Archaeology in Iraq, ISBN 090347221X
  • Bulut, Christiane (2018b), "The Turkic varieties of Iran", in Haig, Geoffrey; Khan, Geoffrey (eds.), The Languages and Linguistics of Western Asia: An Areal Perspective, Walter de Gruyter, ISBN 3110421682

Legal/official status:

  • Karimi, Ali (2016), "Linguistic and Cultural Rights in the Arab Constitutions: From Arabism to Linguistic and Cultural Diversity", in Grote, Rainer; Röder, Tilmann J. (eds.), Constitutionalism, Human Rights, and Islam After the Arab Spring, Oxford University Press, ISBN 0190627646
  • Bammarny, Bawar (2016), "The Legal Status of the Kurds in Iraq and Syria", in Grote, Rainer; Röder, Tilmann J. (eds.), Constitutionalism, Human Rights, and Islam After the Arab Spring, Oxford University Press, ISBN 0190627646
  • Bulut, Christiane (2018), "Iraq-Turkic", in Haig, Geoffrey; Khan, Geoffrey (eds.), The Languages and Linguistics of Western Asia: An Areal Perspective, Walter de Gruyter, ISBN 3110421682

Education:

Media and Literature (I have not yet written a section on literature):

  • Saatçi, Suphi (2018), "The Turkman of Iraq", in Bulut, Christiane (ed.), Linguistic Minorities in Turkey and Turkic-Speaking Minorities of the Periphery, Harrassowitz Verlag, ISBN 3447107235

These sources are the most detailed peer-reviewed sources on the Iraqi Turkmen. None of these claim that the Iraqi Turkmen are Azeri or speak Azerbaijanian. These sources do not rely merely on one-liner sentences to "prove" the reality. Selçuk Denizli (talk) 16:40, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

ReconditeRodent: Besides everything already listed, I came across one source providing the following citation for the statement that Turkmeni “is closer to Azeri than Turkish”:

  • Овезов-Каджаров 1993: 141, 185–187; cf. [Sâdettin] Buluç 1966 [Kerkük hoyratlarına dair], 1979 [Teknik Resim Uygulamalari-macit], [Abdullatif] Benderoğlu 1976, Дурдысв-Кадыров 1991: 50–53

As a tertiary source I might also mention David Nissman, an expert in the history and politics of the region who is himself cited by Bulut, who seems comfortable calling the language of the Iraqi Turkmen "the same" as that of the Iranian Azeris:

  • Nissman, David (28 July 2001). "The Southern Azeri-Iraqi Turkmen Connection". RFE/RL. Retrieved 29 April 2019. The pressures on [the Iraqi Turkmen] are at least as great as those on the Iranian Azeris to conform to the demands of Iranian ethnic, political, and religious pressures. And yet this is not what unites the two peoples: it is that they share the same language and, in part, the same traditions.

Everything I've seen suggests this is at least currently the default view. It could be outdated, it could be wrong (although an argument about whether to put some dialects with one language or call them a "transitional group" between that language and another seems like it's unlikely to have a clean answer), but for now it's what most sources say. All I want is for this idea to be mentioned once (nearish the start) and not in a way that implies it's an errant or minority view. It doesn't have to imply that because it's widespread it must be right. ─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 19:58, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Second statement by moderatorEdit

Thank you for your replies. As far as I understand, there are at least eight sources that say sources Iraqi Turkmen are Azari speakers and at least ten sources that claim they are Turkic speakers. I would like to ask each of you a different question to continue the dispute resolution.

  • @Selçuk Denizli: Please briefly explain why you oppose mentioning that some sources call Iraqi Turkmen Azari speakers. You may discuss the quality of the other editors' sources if needed.
  • @ReconditeRodent: Please bring a proposed text in with which you would agree.

--MrClog (talk) 13:46, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

No one's disputing that their language is Turkic, since South Azeri is a subcategory of Turkic. Turkmeni has historically been called Turkish when listed as an official language but no one's arguing that from a linguistic perspective. ─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 16:58, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
ReconditeRodent, thank you for the clarification. --MrClog (talk) 19:00, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Second statement by editorsEdit

Do not engage with each other!
Selçuk Denizli:

I am opposed to three issues: the use of non-linguistic sources, the use of sources which are not peer-reviewed, and the use of studies which do not focus on the Iraqi Turkmen.
Unfortunately, the list provided by User:John Francis Templeson is full of contradictions and inaccuracies by the authors and have been taken out of context on Wikipedia. For example, although Professor Hendrik Boeschoten does say there is "a Turkish – or rather Azerbaijanian – speaking part of the population" he lists the language/people as "Iraq Turkmens" not Turkish nor Azerbaijianian and gives an incorrect population of 400,000 in 2015 (see page 5). (Please note that the Iraqi census of 1957/59 shows that there was 567,000 Iraqi Turkmen who listed their mother tongue as "Turkish", forming 9% of the population). Similarly, there are problems with Dr. Hidayet Kemal Bayatlı's work: he calls the Iraqi Turkmen dialects "Irak Türkmen Türkçesi" (Iraqi Turkmen Turkish) but then says: "The language spoken by the Iraqi Turkmen falls under Azeri (Eastern Oghuz)" (page 329); however, Azeri falls under Western Oghuz not Eastern Oghuz, which again shows incorrect information. The sources by Gerhard Doerfer focus on Iran not Iraq, these are not studies on the Iraqi Turkmen dialects.
I do appreciate User:ReconditeRodent's attempt to help us come to an agreement, but the footnotes he/she has listed from Dr Larry Clark's study does not provide evidence that Iraqi Turkmen are Azeri speakers, for the source says they "may number more than 200,000, who speak a western Oguz dialect closer to Azeri than to Turkish" (page 11). Whilst Clark says it is "closer to Azeri", he does not say it is Azeri, and an estimate of "more than 200,000" shows that the source is out of touch with the reality, for there was 567,000 Iraqi Turkmen speakers in 1957/59 (listed as "Turkish" at the time) and now there are over 3 million Iraqi Turkmen according to the Iraqi Ministry of Planning (2013).
We should avoid using random non-linguistic articles, such as the Radio Free Europe publication discussed above, because it will only open the floodgates in the future and cause further disputes. There are many websites which also claim that Iraqi Turkmen speak a Turkish dialect, such as the CIA World Factbook, Minority Rights Group International, and Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization (page 2). There are many scholars who have published books which say that Iraqi Turkmen is a Turkish dialect or that there are Turkish-speaking people in Iraq, such as Professor Charles Warren Hostler (page 12), Professor Yılmaz Çolak (page 16), Dr Henry Field (page 11)... the list is actually quite extensive... But I refrained from using these sources because, as I keep stressing, the language section should focus on linguistic, peer-reviewed, sources which focus on the Iraqi Turkmen dialect(s). Selçuk Denizli (talk) 17:52, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
Also, so far not a single linguistic source has been provided that claims Iraqi Turkmen speak "South Azeri" so I do not understand why this would be suggested for an introduction. Selçuk Denizli (talk) 18:22, 18 May 2019 (UTC)


ReconditeRodent:

For the introductory paragraph of the language section:

The Iraqi Turkmen speak a western Oghuz language variously known as Turkmen/Turkoman, Turkmeni, Iraqi Turkmen, or Iraqi Turkic (to distinguish it from the Turkmen language of Turkmenistan). In linguistic sources it is usually referred to as a dialect of South Azeri, grouping it with the dialects in neighbouring Iran, although Christiane Bulut argues that it constitutes a “transitional dialect group” between South Azeri and Turkish due to heavy influence from the latter. Iraqi Turkmen themselves tend to view their language as a dialect of Turkish, which is used as a prestige language and the official written language.

Other than that I'd be mostly happy to leave things as they are, with Selçuk's new introduction as the second paragraph and the "Classification of dialects" section removed since it's a mess. The line "Iraqi-Turkic is said to be particularly close to the Turkish dialects of Diyarbakır and Urfa in south-eastern Turkey." can probably be reincorporated somewhere, bearing in mind that the source itself says "[Bulut] concludes that the dialects originally display numerous features of the Afshar or Southern Oghuz group but also exhibit similarities with certain southeastern Anatolian dialects as those of Urfa and Diyarbekir." ─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 16:58, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Talk:Håkon Wium LieEdit

  – New discussion.
Filed by Elmats on 00:24, 17 May 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

Should the article contain information that the magazine this person cofounded is controversial and right-wing? The discussion contains arguments to and from, i will try to refrain from reciting them here in interest of being objective.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Talk about it on the talk page

How do you think we can help?

I think giving guidance on whether this information should not be included on the page.

Summary of dispute by permeneeEdit

The dispute is whether the term "controversial Norwegian right-wing" should be used on a BLP page, wrt. ownership in the Resett online newspaper. I believe the term is not fitting, for these reasons:

  1. information about a newspaper's bias should appear on the wikipedia page of the newspaper itself, rather than on bio pages of founders/owners. For example, one does not link to the "liberal Washington Post" on Jeff Bezos' page.
  2. the Resett online newspaper has a well-developed wikipedia page in Norwegian which does not use words like "controversial" or "right-wing"
  3. the term is possibly libelious unless one has very clear evidence about support for controversial right-wing causes. No such evidence has been provided.
  4. on the contrary, the two initial editors of Resett were an Utøya massacre survivor (Bjørn Ihler) and a researcher who was most famous for warning against bombing Libya (Helge Lurås). Supporting these is probably more left-wing than right-wing.
  5. the current editorial board of Resett is more diverse (in terms of skin color and sexual identity) than any other Norwegian newspaper, and articles by left-wing authors appear regularly (e.g. Lars Birkelund). Labelling the newspaper as "right-wing" is therefore simplistic at best, dangerous at worst. In any case, such labelling should not appear a bio page.
  6. According to Wikipedia's policies "Biographies of living persons must be written conservatively ... Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives".

The proposed use of the term seems to be just that: a tittilating claim, which should not appear on a BLP.

Summary of dispute by jon_harald_sobyEdit

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:Talk:Håkon Wium Lie discussionEdit

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
  • Volunteer Note - There has been discussion at the article talk page. The filing editor has notified the other editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 11:19, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Talk:Timeline of Russian interference in the 2016 United States electionsEdit

  – New discussion.
Filed by JFG on 21:19, 18 May 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

Over the lifetime of the article, there have been recurring disagreements about which items deserve to be included in the timeline, and which ones are off-topic. Some editors, including me, argue for a strict scope encompassing any activities by Russian entities to interfere in U.S. elections. Some others argue for a broad interpretation of "anything linked to this affair", which may encompass essentially any news item that includes the words "Trump" and "Russia", including stuff from 30 years ago.

Recently, the discussions have flared up again, and I have attempted to structure the discussion by theme. Several talk page threads are open, and there is active participation from various people, however most discussions are repeating prior arguments and people are entrenched in their positions. Despite the fact that we are now much better informed as to the real-world scope of Russian actions, and Trump associates' involvement or lack thereof, the article has fallen victim to statu quo stonewalling, which is in my opinion not the best way to inform readers.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

After some recent edit-warring between the two "sides" involving mass removals and restorations of content (because one side deems it irrelevant / off-topic and the other deems it important to keep), I have carefully segmented the discussion by subject matter, and summarised all timeline entries that are under dispute. See the various threads under Talk:Timeline of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections#Disputed pre-2015 content, by theme.

How do you think we can help?

  • Help editors agree on the appropriate scope of the timeline.
  • Collectively establish criteria for inclusion of any current or future entry.
  • Advise on other places where out-of-scope information for this article could be better suited.

I feel that a mediation process is more likely to break the deadlock and converge on a viable path for article improvement, than a series of RfCs which would probably reinforce the entrenched positions of participating editors.

Summary of dispute by BullRangiferEdit

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
  • The scope of this article isn't just Russia, but anything which RS relate to the Trump-Russia investigation, Mueller probe, and any back history which RS relate to Russia's efforts to cultivate Trump for possible later use. This all includes Trump's presidential campaign and Trump's history with Russia, because he and the Russians were already talking about him running for president way back in the 1980s. They knew in 2013, before Americans knew, that he would run in 2016, and they were publicly promising to help him. (Americans didn't notice this until later.) RS say this goes very far back, and RS see that as the origins of the current interference in our elections, and they tie kompromat collected over decades about Trump's behavior as a tool in Russian's interference efforts. That's why this is all on-topic. -- BullRangifer (talk) 03:48, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
  • The article is "unreadable"? Of course. This isn't a prose article, but a list article, which, by their very nature, are not read in the same way as a prose article. These are bits of information from RS which are added by date, often with no obvious "readable" connection with the entries before and after. This complaint is a red herring. -- BullRangifer (talk) 04:15, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by FoxyGrampa75Edit

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Jawz101Edit

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Summary of dispute by Mr ErnieEdit

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Summary of dispute by My very best wishesEdit

If something was described in RS as related to the subject of the page ("Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections"), this should be included to the timeline. For example, [5], [6]. Including or excluding something should be decided by sources. WP:NOR please. What happens? Some participants plainly deny whatever RS on this subject tell. Consider this reply [7] to this comment [8]. My very best wishes (talk) 00:01, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by OnetwothreeipEdit

JFG, The Four Deuces and Slatersteven have it right. There is overwhelming status quo stonewalling particular by two editors who have been very disruptive. There are parts of the article that really should be uncontroversial to remove. I might write more here later. Onetwothreeip (talk) 23:36, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

In response to My very best wishes, I will just say that our role is to summarise information, not to include everything that has ever been reported that could be construed as even tenuously related to the subject. I also agree with Starship.paint that content can be moved to other articles, new and existing. The massive article as it is now is simply unreadable, I think someone observed that it would be over 100 A4 pages if printed out. Onetwothreeip (talk) 00:07, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

My response to BullRangifer is simply that if this is a list article, the reader cannot sort through the list from most important to least important, in any way that may be defined. Call it a list article if you want, it's an unreadable list then, seemingly designed to make the reader give up on thinking there is any substance to the implication made by the title of the article. Onetwothreeip (talk) 06:35, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by PsantoraEdit

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Summary of dispute by SlaterstevenEdit

I have disagreed that this needs to cover anything other then the interference and the events linked directly to it. Its not about Donnies contacts (or links) with Russia (that is covered by another article), its not about the investigations (that is covered by another article). All I think this does is muddy the water and makes it hard to follow the actual events. It also makes it far to big, and thus adds to the above difficulty.Slatersteven (talk) 08:46, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

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Suggestion by Starship.paintEdit

Not summarizing because I’m not familiar. Would simply like to suggest splitting content into Timelime of links between Trump associates and Russian officials. Hopefully more people will be happy with that. starship.paint (talk) 00:04, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by The Four DeucesEdit

Agree with JFG's overview. Currently the article contains information that anyone who has worked for Trump who has had contact with Russians. That has all become moot since there is no evidence that any of these contacts related to the election. TFD (talk) 23:21, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Websurfer2Edit

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Summary of dispute by X1\Edit

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Talk:Timeline of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections discussionEdit

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.