Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)

(Redirected from Wikipedia:VPT)
 Policy Technical Proposals Idea lab WMF Miscellaneous 
The technical section of the village pump is used to discuss technical issues about Wikipedia. Bug reports and feature requests should be made in Phabricator (see how to report a bug). Bugs with security implications should be reported differently (see how to report security bugs).

If you want to report a JavaScript error, please follow this guideline. Questions about MediaWiki in general should be posted at the MediaWiki support desk. Discussions are automatically archived after remaining inactive for five days.

Search totals capped at 10,000Edit

For over a year, I have used insource regex searching intensively. One of its most valuable features was that it gave a total number of matches.

My search for untagged, unbracketed bare URLs is insource:/\<ref( [^\>]*)?\>https?:\/\/[^ \<\>\{\}]+ *\<\/ref/i. Until this evening, it was reporting a total of ~44K hits. Now it always reports 10,000.

This is a real loss of utility. It deprives me of my main tool for monitoring progress in between the twice-monthly database downloads.

Why has this happened? BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:10, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

We are in the process of upgrading from Elasticsearch 6.8.23 to Elasticsearch 7.10.2. This behavior changed in ES7; now queries are early-stopped at a count of 10,000 to save CPU time.
Previously, while the number of actual documents returned would never be more than 10,000, it would still return the full count (the ~44k hits you were seeing).
It sounds like there's a setting we can flip to switch the count behavior back to how it was previously.
We'll have a phabricator task up for this in a bit so I'll circle back to edit this response with a link to that ticket in a little bit.
Thanks for reporting the behavior change, it's very helpful for us to get a feel for users' workflows. RKemper (WMF) (talk) 22:41, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
And that ticket is T317374. :) Legoktm (talk) 22:42, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
Thanks, @Legoktm & @RKemper (WMF).
The full count is really useful for many tasks. I use it many times a day for that search, but also as many times again for various other regex searches. It's great to be able to ask "how big is this issue" and get a prompt answer. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:09, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
I know we're not supposed to say "Me too" on Phab, so here it is in the right place: "Me too!" This feature is invaluable. – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:28, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
@Jonesey95. Might want to click "Award Token" on Phab and give it a thumbs up. That's an un-spammy way to support a ticket. Hope that helps. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:59, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
Yes, this is a feature I was using. I just found out that it was capped today so like @Jonesey95 and @BrownHairedGirl have said it would be helpful for the total count to show, even if it doesn't reutrn more than 10,000 results (like it did in the past). Rlink2 (talk) 13:28, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
Circling back here: we've merged a patch that should restore the previous count behavior. This patch won't go live until the next backport deploy or deployment train. Our current goal is to get it out during the Monday Sep 12 US backport window, so if you all haven't heard anything by Tuesday US time, feel free to ping me/us again here or on IRC (#wikimedia-search) for an update. RKemper (WMF) (talk) 18:57, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
Many thanks, @RKemper (WMF), both for your prompt action on this and for your courtesy throughout. I look fwd to the fix. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:11, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
Update: We've rolled out the new setting. I tried @BrownHairedGirl's query and can confirm I see the full 44k+ hits listed. RKemper (WMF) (talk) 07:26, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for the rollout, @RKemper (WMF).
The full count is indeed being listed, @RKemper (WMF). Thanks for you work on this.
However this has confirmed another problem which I had glimpsed in the past week: that the new search is much more susceptible to timeouts.
Before the switch to Elasticsearch 7, my bare URLs search timed out only very occasionally, and only at periods of peak load, i.e. 2100–0600
However, now my bare URLs search times out on nearly every attempt. Even at 1000 UTC, I still had to try three times to get a full set, without timeout.
The behaviour within AWB is even more annoying. Since May 2022, I have at least once every day (and more often 2-3 times) used exactly that same search within AWB, to generate lists to feed to @Citation bot. It always produced 1,000 hits the maximum permitted by AWB; never any less, in hundreds of uses. But since the arrival of Elasticsearch 7, about half of those with-AWB searches return less than 1,000 hits; only morning-time UTC and early afternoon is safe. I presume that is because the search has timed out.
Note that my current bare URLs search was adopted only when the number of unbracketed, untagged bare URLs dipped below about 110,000. Before that, it timed out, so I used a crude, less complete search which excludes named refs: insource:/\<ref\>https?:\/\/[^ \<\>\{\}+\s*\<\/ref/i]
So Elasticsearch 7 is causing my current search to timeout at less than half the hit count which caused the Elasticsearch 6 to timeout.
What exactly are the upsides of Elasticsearch 7? I see only significantly degraded performance, with no benefits. Have I missed something? BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:01, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
Using Elasticsearch 6 blocks the use of PHP 8 (see the task chain), which constitutes a security concern as PHP 7 goes out of support soon. Elasticsearch 6 is also not supported by today's and/or tomorrow's OS vendors, which constitutes its own separate security concern. Nearly all version bumps where the feature set is not advertised widely are due to security at the end of the day. Izno (talk) 15:22, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
Thanks, @Izno. I accept that security concerns will be a driving factor.
But the result of this security fix is a significant fall in performance. It would be helpful to know what processes are underway to identify and implement measures to offset the performance hit, so that users do not lose functionality. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:48, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
@RKemper (WMF): any chance of an comment on whether there is a process to offset the performance hit?
Some of my other work is badly hit by this. For example, I am cleaning up the remaining bare URLs on some top-level domains. I have already done .pk, .si, .ua, .int and .ie. Now I am back to working on .fr, but since the upgrade to Elasticsearch 7 my search insource:/\<ref( [^\>]*)?\>https?:\/\/[^\/ \<\>\{\}]+?\.fr\/[^ \<\>\{\}]+ *\<\/ref/i times out more often than not. Before the upgrade, it never timed out. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:41, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
Part of the upgrade requires switching traffic to a single cluster while we upgrade the other. At the moment, the search traffic is going to our secondary datacenter (codfw). This leads to higher load on the cluster and higher latency due to traffic between datacenters. I'm not confident that this is the only reason, there might well be use cases where Elasticsearch 7 has lower performances than Elasticsearch 6. But it make sense to wait until the migration is fully completed before investigating this further. You can check the progress on this Phab task: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T308676.
GLederrey (WMF) (talk) GLederrey (WMF) (talk) 14:58, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for that clarification, @GLederrey (WMF). That reduced capacity during switchover makes sense, and I am sure that it is at least part of the reason for the performance hit.
Thanks for the Phab link, but I don't have the headspace to learn all the complexities of managing a huge server system. I think its much better for me to leave that in the capable hands of those professionals like yourself and @RKemper (WMF) who specialise in such things.
May I assume from your reply that when the upgrade is complete someone (or some team) within WMF tech will remain "seized of the matter" (as diplomats say) and follow through on performance tests, and plan any necessary remedies? BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 05:12, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
Our metrics show that there is no significant performance degradation. That being said, our metrics are global and we don't track the performance of individual queries. If you see specific queries that are now performing worse than expected, please let us now! Ideally by opening a Phabricator ticket and tagging it with "Discovery-Search". GLederrey (WMF) (talk) 08:33, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
@GLederrey (WMF): I have already given you two specific examples, above. Both extensively tested, both with very serious performance degradation. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:19, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Elasticsearch 7 featuresEdit

After RKemper (WMF)'s helpful comments about the upgrade from Elasticsearch 6.8.23 to Elasticsearch 7.10.2, I did a quick google for docs on changes in functionality. However, all I found was a cluster of pages on the Elasticsearch website which extolled the software's virtues for sysops, such as more compact logfiles. Nothing about users.

Is there any documentation of any changes for users of the search?

For example, I would love the search to support Perl-style shorthand character classes such as \s, \S, \d, and \b. (I have a crush on \b). That would eliminate some tedious conversion and debugging when I take a regex from a Perl script or a C# AWB custom module to use in an insource search (or vice versa), as I often do for sanity checks.

Does the upgrade bring any such changes to the construction and/or reliability of regex searches? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 07:39, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

The regex support is actually provided by Lucene, which does not provide full regex support. Elasticsearch documents their regex support for v7 on this documentation page. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 08:21, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
Thanks, @TheDJ. That link is very helpful ... unlike the half-arsed version of regex which it implements. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:33, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

DiscussionTools Beta Feature updateEdit

 
Almost like this, but with no arrows by the new Reply link

The Beta Feature for DiscussionTools is supposed to get some updates this month. You can see "everything" at these links:

The bit that will actually reach the Beta Feature is what the team calls "topic containers". It's just the stuff around the ==Section heading==, not the stuff at the top of the page or the stuff in Vector 2022's new Table of Contents. You'll need to login if you want to see the new subscribe button.

I post this here so you'll know what's going on if someone asks you what caused the talk pages to look different. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:53, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Whatamidoing, put this in Tech News. @Klein Muçi already asked me about this redesign on 19 August, thinking my script was responsible for it.Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 04:33, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
This has been in Tech/News off and on for about two months already. This particular set of changes is already in the Beta Feature everywhere except enwiki, dewiki, and jawiki at this point. There are two more sets of changes coming up for desktop users.
(I'm in a scheduling meeting right now. It sounds like this change won't happen here until Wednesday, 21 September at the earliest, and the next set has just been delayed until mid-October except for arwiki, huwiki and cswiki.) Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:01, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
Whatamidoing, this is only tangentially related to the subject but I had a question that has been bothering me for a while now: Why do we have an inverted kebab menu on the notifications only for it to show the unsubscribe button? I have the impression these kinds of menus are saved for multi-entries dropdowns. There's plenty of room there, why not just have the unsubscribe button directly there instead of hiding it inserted in a cupboard? — Klein Muçi (talk) 09:34, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
If memory serves, when they made that decision, they were considering the possibility of a second item for the menu (a link to Echo/Notification preferences, maybe?). It hasn't been added, but they didn't go back to change it afterwards. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:02, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
Whatamidoing, I see... I wish that one of the two options you mention was provided already. Maybe when this update goes live. Taking the unsubscribe button out of the cupboard under the stairs looks straightforward and easy enough, even if that's only a temporary solution. — Klein Muçi (talk) 10:43, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
Sad that this is going to be out without making the headings more accessible, see the task on Phabricator. @Whatamidoing, can you confirm to me that projects that have enabled this by default would not receive this feature in its current state without their explicit approval? stjn 09:31, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Stjn, good to hear I'm not alone on this.. "Putting discussion activity inside the header, yet displaying it below it. Great job. Thanks DT."
Needless to say, my script inserts discussion activity after the header.Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 12:12, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
I've pinged the PM about that Phab task. I'm not sure that I understand the problem, but it sounded like something might need to be fixed on the mobile site before they could fix this.
(There are zero wikis that have enabled this by default.) Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:35, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Sorry, I wasn’t really clear, I was asking about wikis where DiscussionTools itself is enabled by default. stjn 23:02, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
DiscussionTools itself is not enabled by default at any wiki. You will find it in Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-betafeatures at all wikis.
Certain sub-features of DiscussionTools (e.g., the very popular Reply tool) are enabled by default at all wikis. The "whole package" is not enabled by default anywhere. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 23:07, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Thank you for offline ping @Whatamidoing (WMF).
...without making the headings more accessible, see the task on Phabricator.
hi @Stjn 👋🏼 I appreciate you raising this issue (T314714) here.
You doing so was the reminder I needed to prioritize better understanding the effort and complexity involved with addressing T13555, which seems to be the underlying issue which causes phab:T314714.
You can expect a ping from me here, or on T314714, in the next couple of weeks with what I was able to figure out.
In the meantime, I've asked a clarifying question about the impact of T314714 on the ticket.
Of course, please let me know if any of the above brings new thoughts/questions to mind. PPelberg (WMF) (talk) 00:31, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Wikilink markup being changed by MediaWikiEdit

  Resolved
 – Browser extension was interfering with editing. — xaosflux Talk 13:48, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

I've noticed in recent edits double square bracket notation has suddenly been changed to single square brackets, plus the suffix "-en" in the link text. For example [ [ foo | bar ] ] (without the spaces) changes to [foo|bar-en]. I type the double square brackets and when I click preview, it changes to this weird new markup. The contents of nowiki tags, transclusions of the {{brackets}} template, square brackets entered as HTML entities, and even old versions of pages (!) are not immune. This is very surprising and undesirable behaviour. What is going on? Hairy Dude (talk) 11:14, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

  • This change is not merely cosmetic. The weird markup doesn't work, so it is breaking many links on the page when I preview the page before publishing (i.e. every time, since I have the "show preview on first edit" preference enabled). It also makes pages flatly incorrect, for example Help:Link. Hairy Dude (talk) 12:24, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
    • Okay, this is really weird. I'm seeing this behaviour on my desktop computer (Firefox 104.0.2 on Windows 10) but not my phone (Firefox 104.2.0 on Android 13, similarly yesterday's nightly build). Hairy Dude (talk) 12:42, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
      • Tests:
        Test: bar (reply tool)
        Test 2: bar (wikieditor)
        Test 3: bar (visual editor)
@Hairy Dude: I haven't been able to reproduce this yet, can you please give exact step-by-step directions to do this (perhaps do it in a clean user sandbox as well). Please note which editor you are using as well. — xaosflux Talk 12:52, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
I don't think this is the issue, but you have User:Dr pda/prosesize.js imported in to your monobook.js file, which says not to load it, directing someone that wants to use it to use the Gadget version instead. — xaosflux Talk 12:55, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
I've turned some Firefox extensions off and on and it seems like it's caused by Consent-O-Matic. :( Hairy Dude (talk) 13:43, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
Thank you for the udpate, looks like we can say this isn't us. — xaosflux Talk 13:48, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
I saw another report at Wikipedia:Help desk#single-bracket wikilinks with '-en' suffix that can't be edited? I have added Consent-O-Matic to Wikipedia:Browser notes#Unwanted effects.[1] PrimeHunter (talk) 13:17, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Hairy Dude reported it to the extension at https://github.com/cavi-au/Consent-O-Matic/issues/95. They have released a fixed version v.1.0.10. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:23, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Check for uses of a template with several specified parameter valuesEdit

I want to know if there are any uses of Template:Infobox language with the following details:

  • Each of the creator and settings is either absent or blank
  • The signers parameter has a non-blank value
  • The familycolor is one of conlang, artificial, constructed or constructed language.

Animal lover |666| 17:24, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

You should add a language to the template that adds the template to a category depending on whether these conditions are met or not. Ruslik_Zero 19:21, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
A tracking category needs a good reason. The search hastemplate:"Infobox language" insource:/signers *=/ only gives two results so you can just examine them manually. PrimeHunter (talk) 20:36, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
Thanks. The answer to my original question is no, as I originally suspected. This is relevant because I'm trying to convert the template to Lua, and I saw what I thought was an optimization for wikicode which would have made the Lua more complicated if the answer to my question was yes; in short, a result from a boolean test done at one part of a template can't be used in an other part and the test must ne redone, while Lua functions don't have that issue. Animal lover |666| 08:04, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
Some templates call a core subtemplate with the result of oprations which would have to be redone otherwise. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:06, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
You might also find this external tool for template parameters useful. Dexxor (talk) 06:56, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Template:2022–23 National League 2 EastEdit

Unable to edit the league table for 2022–23 National League 2 East. When I attempt an edit, the league table for 2022–23 National League 2 North is in the template. Would appreciate some help as I am unable to work out where I have gone wrong. Jowaninpensans (talk) 20:57, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

@Jowaninpensans: I have fixed the page name in the watch/edit/discuss links made by the template.[2] I clicked the "Edit" tab to edit the template when the links didn't work. PrimeHunter (talk) 21:12, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
This is something that should be picked up by Wikipedia:Database reports/Invalid Navbar links, but it's not - I think because it uses manually-constructed links for edit etc., rather than a {{navbar}}. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 16:43, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
Yes, Wikipedia:Database reports/Invalid Navbar links is only for templates which use certain other templates to make the links. Template:2022–23 National League 2 East should be converted to use {{navbar}} or something similar but it follows a convention in Category:England rugby union standings templates (and apparently also some other countries). They should all be converted but at the same time for consistency. It's also problematic that they have a watch link instead of view when most readers are IP's with no watchlist. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:53, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
  Done. — Qwerfjkltalk 17:42, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Feedback requested concerning invisibility of Tmbox on mobile viewEdit

Of seven types of message box, all are visible both from desktop or mobile view, except for {{tmbox}}, which is invisible on mobile. Your feedback would be appreciated at Template talk:Mbox#Tmboxes not visible on mobile (all other mboxes are). Mathglot (talk) 06:46, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

xaoxflux responded (thanks!) at the link. Mathglot (talk) 08:46, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Note: I've created {{Tmboxw}} as a temporary workaround for this problem until T257394 is resolved. Please add bugs, concerns, or other comments at Template talk:Tmboxw. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 03:38, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

failed login attemptsEdit

This, like all on-wiki reports of failed login attempts, serves no purpose other than rewarding trolls for a low-effort, high-payoff tactic. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 10:38, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Hello. I saw a notification that (around two hours ago) "There have been multiple failed attempts to login to your account from a new device." Just wondering if it was only me, or were there attempts on some other accounts as well? —usernamekiran (talk) 20:25, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

a few seconds ago, received two more similar notifications. First it was one notification saying 6 failed attempts. Now there are two notifications a minute apart both saying "multiple failed attempts". So in total there are three notifications now. —usernamekiran (talk) 21:56, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
Ignore them if your account has a strong password. Likely a troll. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v a little blue Bori 22:09, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
yup. But just a minute ago, I got one more notification saying "12 attempts". I have strong password, so nothing to worry. —usernamekiran (talk) 22:32, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
  • Not concerned, nor complaining, but just an update: I opened up the browser, and there was a notification from two hours ago saying there were 90 failed attempts. —usernamekiran (talk) 04:52, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Wrong edit conflict after double clickingEdit

Hi, after editing of a talk page (e.g., the talk page at Talk:Affine_space#Definitely_not_right) and when we want to publish these edits, we should click the blue button "Publish changes". But if we double click that button instead of a single click, the edits will publish but we redirect to page Edit conflict: Talk:Affine space.

This scenario is not correct, i.e., double clicking should not cause any "edit conflict". So please correct that bug. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 04:25, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the idea. Feature request created: phab:T318146Novem Linguae (talk) 10:35, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Page views for non-existent pagesEdit

Is there any way to get page view statistics for redlinks? For context; Tai chee was recently created as a redirect to Tai Chi. I came across it tagged as WP:R3 (a recently created redirect from an implausible typo or misnomer). The same user also created several variations such as Tai Chee and Taichee. Before deciding whether or not to delete these, I am wondering how implausible that is. I can see people typing tai chee into the search field because they don't know how to spell Tai Chi. So I am wondering if there is any way of seeing how many page views the (until today) nonexistent Tai chee were getting over the past few months? The normal page view statistics in the left side bar give no information prior to page creation. ~ ONUnicorn(Talk|Contribs)problem solving 16:25, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

It still shows up in Page Information. Red link example (as linked from Wikipedia:Redlink) currently shows 1, for example. You can go back up to 60 days with the API, which shows a second hit for Red link example but still none for Tai chee. It's unclear whether Tai chee really had no hits in the last two months, or if redlink views become inaccessible after a page is created at that title. —Cryptic 17:16, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Yes. Pageviews Analysis and similar tools should show data for any title you give it, whether the page exists or not. It's a little confusing because with the way the Pageviews API works, a 404 (not found) is the same as zero pageviews, so keep that in mind. This example shows all-time data (since July 2015) for the three redirects you mention, and we see the "Not found" errors the Pageviews API gave us, which suggests no one has viewed these titles before. If you check back tomorrow there should be a number of pageviews, since they were all created today.
One important thing to note, however, is that for a pageview to be registered, someone must browse to an appropriate URL such as /wiki/Tai_chee or /w/index.php?title=Tai_chee. Typically this won't happen via search. When you do a search for a title that doesn't exist, you end up at Special:Search (example). Someone would then need to click on the red link (as if to create the article) in order for a pageview to be registered. What this means is the fact that were no pageviews shouldn't necessarily negate the plausible need for a redirect. MusikAnimal talk 17:21, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Eh, actually it looks like Pageviews Analysis does NOT let you enter in titles for nonexistent pages -- something I can fix, but regardless the second part about the likelihood of red links even getting pageviews still stands. The three pages you mention exist now, so this link is in fact hitting the pageviews API and not getting any data -- meaning zero pageviews. MusikAnimal talk 17:27, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for the response. ~ ONUnicorn(Talk|Contribs)problem solving 18:27, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

SWViewer mysteriously not functioningEdit

  Resolved
 – External tool is working again. — xaosflux Talk 15:42, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Hello! This probably isn't the right place to report this but SWViewer has suddenly stopped showing any edits in the queue. I've tried clearing my cache but that hasn't helped. It says I'm connected to the recent stream on the bottom, and I highly doubt all edits across all Wikis have just suddenly stopped. ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 19:43, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

@Blaze Wolf the "right place" is meta:Talk:SWViewer. — xaosflux Talk 21:03, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Alright. I figured that'd be the right place but I wasn't sure. Regardless it appears that the issue has been resolved now. ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 21:07, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Feeling really stupidEdit

Clicked on a damned banner by mistake, it messed up the appearance of pages here, trying but failing to restore the previous appearance. Can some kind soul tell me what this skin is called? I was using it until about ten minutes ago, but I'm not seeing how to return to it in my preferences. As I said, feeling really stupid. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:55, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

@Justlettersandnumbers: That looks like "Vector legacy (2010)", under Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rendering. DanCherek (talk) 20:57, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Thanks, DanCherek, that's what I thought it was too, but when I reset to that a load of stuff is in a serif font, while until fifteen minutes ago it was sans. Is there some other button I have to click to restore my settings, do you know? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:02, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
@Justlettersandnumbers: Is that load of stuff within editing areas? If so, the relevant place is Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-editing, section Editor. AddWittyNameHere 21:22, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Thanks, AddWittyNameHere, but no, it isn't that, the edit window is about the only thing that's OK. Page titles and section headers are in serif font where they were sans before, the size relationship between the page title and menu items (top bar, side bar etc) is absurdly exaggerated (looks like about 4:1). That damned banner should read "click here and screw up your interface for good". I'm not too pleased, WMF. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:50, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
@Justlettersandnumbers: Try going to Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets and selecting "Vector classic typography (use only sans-serif in Vector skin)". This is related to the update described at mw:Typography refresh. DanCherek (talk) 22:16, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Also try to bypass your cache. Use Ctrl+F5 in most Windows browsers, not just F5 or the reload icon. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:41, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
DanCherek, you've cracked it! – thank you so much! I knew there must be another box to check somewhere, but no idea where. Yes, PrimeHunter, that too, thank you – I have that clock that also acts a purge button, that usually seems to do the trick. This is resolved, many thanks. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 09:01, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
Is there a banner that can change preferences with one click? Without wishing to spill any beans, perhaps something should be done about that. Certes (talk) 15:29, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
Yes, some time in the last two years there was one reported on this page (it'll be in the archives) that, if clicked, did cause some changes to prefs, not all of which were easily reversible. WAID may recall it. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:15, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
Well, I wasn't going to comment on that, but yes, if a banner offers to show you what something will look like, you'd expect to be taken to a mock-up of it, not to have it instantly imposed on you with no clearly-identified pathway back to what you had before. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 18:18, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Watchlist featureEdit

Is there a script that will show on the watchlist page the number of edits in the prior 24hrs (relative when the last diff was made)? That way I don't have to check the history, leaving the watchlist page, when there was only a single edit. I check diffs with an in-line diff script, thus staying on the watchlist page, but you can only check the last diff and it's unknown if there were any more recently prior to it. Vandals knows this so they make 1 edit with the vandal and the 2nd edit is a normal minor change, hiding the tracks of the first edit unless someone opens the history tab. -- GreenC 21:44, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

@GreenC, have you tried the "Expand watchlist to show all changes, not just the most recent" option in Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-watchlist? Fair warning: I personally hate it. But perhaps even fairer: Lots of other editors prefer it. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:33, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for the suggestion. Ah yeah that's not good. Too much clicking and noise. All I really need is a simple low-noise indicator there were other edits made recently. I was thinking a number showing the count of diffs in past 24hrs, but it could be anything. -- GreenC 01:08, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
How about also enabling "Group changes by page in recent changes and watchlist" (Preferences -> Recent changes)? Nardog (talk) 01:11, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
WP:POPUPS let you see the most recent few entries in the history without navigating away from a watchlist. DMacks (talk) 21:19, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Tech News: 2022-38Edit

MediaWiki message delivery 22:13, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Commons categoryEdit

The {{commons category}} boxes have become full width for some reason. There appears to be no recent change to the template. Anyone know what has changed? Keith D (talk) 19:07, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Always always always link to an example. When I look at Achilles#External links, the box looks fine to me. – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:13, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
I was looking at Snaith originally, but appeared to be a general problem on others I checked out. It appears to have been fixed now. Keith D (talk) 20:20, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
So there's two possibilities:
  1. Your viewport resolution was < 720px.
  2. I have no idea how, but in the event that the CSS doesn't load correctly for whatever reason. Since TemplateStyles are inlined to the page, this shouldn't happen; there are no additional network requests to perform to get styles for such content, which is the dominant way this issue occurs.
At a higher level, good practice for "block" properties in CSS (float, margin, etc.) is that they be specified only above a certain resolution, allowing smaller resolutions to use the default CSS provided in a browser. This is because in the early days of media queries, web authors needed to deal with browsers that both did and did not support media queries. The ones that didn't would not render the CSS inside the media query. I think part of the reason that practice still exists is because for many kinds of content, mobile resolutions also want "full-width" content (or at least to have the choice to lay stuff out by default). I rewrote Module:Side box to use divs and such media queries a couple months ago, and the default display of a div is 100% width, so that's why in either of the two cases above, you might get 100% width. (An aside: 720px is a lot for a Thing that we perceive to be small on the desktop, but designing just for the default desktop skin (Vector), you need to take into account the 100-200px the sidebar consumes. That leaves 300-400px of words at that width. The solution to this problem at the end of the day is CSS container queries, but rolling those out will still be quite some time for us; Chrome and Safari just merged support for them, and TemplateStyles development lags a couple years behind even if we wanted to use these queries [since not everyone will be using a browser that supports them].) Izno (talk) 22:44, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
Just for information I use Firefox with Monobook skin. Keith D (talk) 23:12, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Unable to edit old revisions on mobileEdit

Using the regular editor on old versions of pages only brings up the "view source" version of the page, even if the page is not protected (e.g. [7]). I can get around this if I switch to the Visual Editor or the non-mobile site. This is happening both logged in and logged out on Chrome and Microsoft Edge on Android and Windows 11. Schierbecker (talk) 03:37, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

User talk page appearanceEdit

Probably an obvious question here but the appearance of User talk pages has radically changed even though I'm in the old Vector skin. Individual talk page comments are now enormous in size and have irrelevant notes like how many people are participating in a discussion (which is almost always 1 with a template talk page notice) and how many comments to a comment there have been (also, almost always 1). Lots of extra lines and whitespace and a larger than normal comment header.

I didn't change my Preferences and no one else has mentioned it here today so is this something that just rolled out? How can I get the normal look back? When I preview other skins, they just show me different versions of the Main Page, not a User Talk page. Oh, and I'm using a laptop, I'm not on mobile. Thanks for any information you can provide Liz Read! Talk! 21:27, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

I just noticed the same thing using the desktop site on mobile, and I'm also not too fond of it. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:29, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
Just FYI, you can turn this off in your preferences — it's an option titled "Show discussion activity" in the "Editing" tab — TheresNoTime (talk • they/them) 21:41, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
For me it was turning off Discussion tools in the beta features tab. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested transmissions °co-ords° 21:48, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
That'll do it too :) but "Show discussion activity" will turn off the new design without turning off the rest of the features — TheresNoTime (talk • they/them) 21:50, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
That's option doesn't exist for me, is it part of the new skin? I still have all the reply functions etc with the beta feature off. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested transmissions °co-ords° 21:53, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
Huh, you're quite right! My bad  TheresNoTime (talk • they/them) 21:56, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
@ActivelyDisinterested, if you have the Beta Feature on, then you will have an option for "Show discussion activity" at the very end of Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-editing-discussion. If you have the Beta Featured disabled, then that option should disappear. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:52, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
I checked and you quote correct, however both seem to result in the same functionality. Maybe because I'm using the 2010 skin. I'm going to leave the beta off, so as to avoid a repeat situation with something else. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested transmissions °co-ords° 11:27, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
I wonder if the [subscribe] button is visible to you on all talk page sections? CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {CX}) 14:09, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
@ActivelyDisinterested: forgot ping. CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {CX}) 14:10, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Yep, the subscribe button is still visable without the beta section being active. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested transmissions °co-ords° 14:17, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
To add, I'm also still getting notifications from subscribed talk page sections. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested transmissions °co-ords° 14:17, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
@ActivelyDisinterested, that's expected, because all that's "in" the Beta Feature at this moment, at this wiki, is the discussion activity stuff. The prior work has graduated "out" of the Beta Feature, and the future work isn't on the servers yet.
I'm going to make two recommendations, explain why, and then you can make your own choice.
First: It takes a week or two to get used to visual changes. The first day is always the worst/weirdest. I recommend trying to live with it for a while, and then making your decision. (I make the same recommendation all visual changes, e.g., Vector 2022. Try it out for a week or two, not just an hour or two.)
Second: If you decide to turn it off, then in this specific case I recommend that all experienced/long-time editors turn the Beta Feature back on, and then turn the discussion activity item off in the proper/permanent preferences at Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-editing-discussion. I recommend this because if you turn on the Beta Feature and turn off the real pref, you're done forever with this set of changes. OTOH, if you turn off the Beta Feature, but leave the real pref "on" (and, at the moment, invisible), then whenever it is deployed by default/graduates from the Beta Feature, it'll get flipped back on for you later (due to prefs database limitations). So if you decide this set of changes is not for you, that's perfectly fine, and the most stable way to get rid of it is to disable the regular pref item, rather than the Beta Feature. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:02, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
I'm using the desktop version on mobile, the additional white spaces and other deadspace is far problematic at this point. Maybe I'll take another look once improvements have been made to how things are formatted. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested transmissions °co-ords° 18:07, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Which skin are you using? You should be able to find the name at Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rendering-skin if you're using the desktop site. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:11, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Seven posts above, 2010. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested transmissions °co-ords° 18:32, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Previous feedback has been provided at mw:Talk:Talk pages project/Usability which describes the changes. Izno (talk) 21:48, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
  • @PPelberg (WMF): WP:ITSTHURSDAY? Was there a phab task to force this on here? — xaosflux Talk 22:04, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
    @Xaosflux: T315625 is the specific task about enabling it here (probably not the best location to raise concerns though) — TheresNoTime (talk • they/them) 22:07, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
    Thank you. It does helpfully outline who it was applied to. — xaosflux Talk 22:26, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
    Was there a phab task to force this on here?
    @Xaosflux: T315625 is the ticket I think you're looking for; thank you for linking it above, @TheresNoTime.
    There's also T317716 which we used to track the work around announcing this change. See: DiscussionTools Beta Feature update.
    Also, please know that it's important to us that you all:
    1. Expect the changes that we are planning to make
    2. Know who they will impact and
    3. Are clear about how you can disable them
    So, if there are improvements to how you think we can communicate the above, I'd value knowing. PPelberg (WMF) (talk) 22:30, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
    @PPelberg (WMF): although these changes were mentioned in Tech/News/2022/33 (15 August 2022) with a link to the roadmap, visibly obvious changes might be worth a touch of "over communicating" with repeated mentions in Tech News and/or "reminders" here? Tech/News/2022/34 did this quite well for "The new [subscribe] button [...]", and also gave guidance on how to disable the change. Just a thought!  TheresNoTime (talk • they/them) 23:10, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
    It's been on this page at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#DiscussionTools Beta Feature update for the last 11 days, in addition to other announcements, not to mention the CentralNotice banners a few weeks back. There is no level of announcement that will ever reach every affected person, though phab:T67191 (notification that a Beta Feature you personally enabled was updated). Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:07, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
    I think the confusion in T315625 is that the feature would only show for People who have the Show discussion activity setting within Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-editing enabled - but not that something was going to enable this (what I think previously didn't exist??) option for people, yet. — xaosflux Talk 00:28, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
@Liz, I'd particularly like to know more about the "enormous in size" problem. It shouldn't change the size of anything (except to the extent that adding more information means that the new information takes up some space). Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:53, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
The size of the section title is now three times as high based on looking inspect element on Firefox, which is explained by the extra information, but there is also now double the padding/margin underneath the horizontal line from my testing. Also the font of the section title is now bolded which may make it feel bigger too. Personally I like the new design, but it does add more whitespace which may be the intended effect. Dreamy Jazz talk to me | my contributions 23:02, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
@Dreamy Jazz, which skin are you using? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:08, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
@Whatamidoing (WMF), I'm using Vector 2022. Dreamy Jazz talk to me | my contributions 18:25, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
And compared it to using incognito mode (which was therefore comparing to Vector 2010). Dreamy Jazz talk to me | my contributions 18:26, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
 
Screenshot comparison
Here's a screenshot comparing the same talk page in three different versions:
  • Vector 2010 with the new information about the discussion activity,
  • Vector 2022 with the new information about the discussion activity, and
  • Vector 2010 again, but without the new information about the discussion activity (i.e., what it looked like last week, and what it looks like if you uncheck the pref now).
The font sizes all look the same to me. Obviously, though, if you're going to add a line saying how many people were in the conversation, etc., then that will take up some room. Is that approximately what you're seeing? Or are you seeing radically different font heights? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 02:40, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
I hate the big increase in vertical whitespace. It forces me to do extra scrolling, and it offers no benefit in terms of distinguishing the elements. This is a usability fail.
It may not be critical for users of huge desktop screens, but on a laptop vertical space is in short supply. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:22, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
I've removed the details, but would also back a whitespace reversion - it doesn't seem to be notable adding to section header readability Nosebagbear (talk) 23:23, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
(tldr) Is there a way to op out? - FlightTime (open channel) 01:10, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Special:Preferences → "Editing" → "Show discussion activity" (uncheck) — TheresNoTime (talk • they/them) 01:21, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
@TheresNoTime: Thank you   — Preceding unsigned comment added by FlightTime (talkcontribs) 01:29, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
That's an important point worth repeating, which applies to other proposed changes too. Many (perhaps most) "desktop" readers use a laptop display about 8" high, and would rather see more information on each screenful than extra white spacing. Certes (talk) 10:55, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
@BrownHairedGirl / @Dreamy Jazz we've tightened up the spacing around the headings slightly, and that'll be coming out next week. If you want a preview, it should be visible on the beta cluster now. DLynch (WMF) (talk) 15:39, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
There seems to be more padding between the bottom of a section and the start of the heading on the beta cluster than there does on enwiki currently? Dreamy Jazz talk to me | my contributions 18:33, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
That got adjusted too, yeah. It's more-compact inside a given section, but I think it's approximately a wash across the entire page. You can see the design decisions around it on T314449 if you're curious. DLynch (WMF) (talk) 14:47, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
I don't want to turn this off just yet, but it looks terrible because the headers on talk pages now no longer respect my font choices and use a different font family from the body. Could the headers be made to use the same font as the body? Or is there a CSS hack to fix this? —Kusma (talk) 08:52, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
You can override the font using the following selector:
.ext-discussiontools-visualenhancements-enabled .ext-discussiontools-init-section
In your specific case, change
body { ...
to
body, .ext-discussiontools-visualenhancements-enabled .ext-discussiontools-init-section { ... ESanders (WMF) (talk) 11:45, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
Thank you! Just one thing (the most visible one) was missing: the header font is .mw-headline and also needs to be added to the CSS rule. —Kusma (talk) 20:08, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm curious to know what is good (enough) about this feature for it to be turned on by default; the extra talk clutter and space is annoying (now gone, but how many editors are going to need to figure out how to turn it off now?). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:08, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia I don't think this is on "by default", but it has been turned on for people that have opted-in to the beta feature. — xaosflux Talk 13:43, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
That's correct: It is only visible to editors who have gone to Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-betafeatures and clicked the button to enable "Discussion Tools". If you don't have the Beta Feature, you won't see it. If you don't like it, then you can turn it off (very last item on the page) permanently. The prefs have been designed so that it should avoid any "Ooops, it automatically re-enabled during the next update" problems.
Discussion Tools has multiple components:
  • Reply tool
  • New Topic tool
  • Subscribe button
  • Discussion activity and appearance (three parts)
  • Mobile site (multiple parts, basically tweaks on the previous four)
At the English Wikipedia (but not quite all of the wikis), the first three are deployed by default to all editors, including logged-out/IPs.
At the English Wikipedia (but not quite all of the wikis), the first part of the fourth item is available only to people who have enabled the Beta Features. The other parts are much smaller (mostly a line at the top of the page, a change from [reply] to Reply, and comment count in the TOC iff you are using Vector 2022) and will happen later this year. If you want to see what that looks like in various skins, click on the PatchDemo links at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#DiscussionTools Beta Feature update (top of this page).
Either one or two parts of the mobile category are available at about 8 wikis (including the French Wikipedia). None of that is available here, no matter what you try to enable. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:45, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Well, fiddlesticks ... that means someone somewhere advised me to turn on Beta, and I did it, but I have no idea what I've done :( SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:16, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
I'd had it on, too - I suspect that I must have thought it provided a useful feature at some point, but have now clicked it off as I think it adds clutter and needless whitespace. Does the fact that it's a beta feature mean that there's consideration of ever moving it beyond beta and making it a permanent feature? Hog Farm Talk 21:22, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Yes of course… —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 10:36, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Fwiw - I just checked. Do not and never have had beta features enabled. Nonetheless I had to turn off the "new" features that were apparently checked by default. This is for Vector 2010. With Safari there aren't white space and font issues, but there is considerable page clutter. Victoria (tk) 21:41, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
 
These changes, not the [reply] button.
@Victoriaearle, the new changes are in the Beta Feature. Click on the picture and see the things that the arrows are pointing at. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 00:24, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

New topic with wrong section linkEdit

Does anyone know why the link in this summary points to the nonexistent section "‎Depricate the signers parameter" despite the subject Depricate the <code>signers</code> parameter?, omitting the question mark? Nardog (talk) 03:49, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

That was posted using Discussion Tool's ==New Topic== tool, but I wasn't able to replicate it. (I had wondered whether it just dropped the ?) Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:49, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
One issue that could have caused this is T315730 (where the summary is generated incorrectly after restoring from autosave sometimes), but it's impossible to know for sure. The user might also have changed the summary themself and forgot the question mark (perhaps if they weren't sure that the <code> tags would be stripped). Matma Rex talk 20:49, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

external links / weblinksEdit

Cheers from german wikipedia. I am wondering if you have any means to prevent external links with a pipe as the delimiter between the link and the link-text.

Just two examples: In Plutarch I find [https://books.google.com/books?id=aJQ9dvgh6BwC&dq=Plutarch+middle+platonist&source=gbs_navlinks_s|The Middle Platonists: 80 BC to AD 220] (Middle Platonists: 80 BC to AD 220), the pipe should be a space, otherwise "|The" gets part of the link. This example does not cause an error/nonfunctional link. However, in Bergen-Belsen concentration camp I see [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Liberating-Belsen-Concentration-Major-General-Nicholas/dp/1511541709|Liberating Belsen Concentration Camp - A Personal Account] (Belsen Concentration Camp - A Personal Account) and here the link does not work.

Any ideas to prevent such errors? Change the wiki-syntax to allow pipe or space as delimiter for external links? Write some filter which warns the user? Any other idea?

BTW: I used the search string insource:/\[http[^ <\]]*\|/ to find those examples. --Wurgl (talk) 08:59, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

? A space is already a delimiter. I suppose one can write a pipe-replacement script in situations like your example above (likely an expensive string-search-replace operation), but there may also be situations where a pipe may be intended to be visible, which complicates things. 71.247.146.98 (talk) 12:34, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
I strongly do not recommend a script doing automagic replacements. There are (a few) cases where the pipe is part of the url. In addition some of the urls may be dead and cannot be found in the internet archive without the pipe-part.
A script which lists such urls for manual fix would be okay. --Wurgl (talk) 12:55, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
We shouldn't prevent such links because they are sometimes correct, e.g. page views, where I really meant to display two graphs called page views, not a single graph for Cat called Dog page views. A search for this type of link might form the input to a useful run with AWB or similar. Certes (talk) 12:49, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
As I know, a filter can simple show some warning. This might help preventing some or a lot of such wrong links. --Wurgl (talk) 12:55, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Requiring the pipe to be followed by a word would cut down the false positives. As a sample, the 457,000 pages beginning with A have 131 cases. Certes (talk) 13:41, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Wikipedia:CHECKWIKI/WPC 543 dump may be helpful. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:42, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
If I remember correctly the pywikibot script replace.py has an automatic fix for this, under fixes.py? . — Qwerfjkltalk 21:30, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

RfC on the adoption of the Vector 2022 skin as the new default on desktopEdit

Hi everyone! The WMF Web team has been working on the Vector 2022 skin for three years.  Currently, the skin is the default on more than 30 projects of various sizes, accounting for a bit more than 1 billion pageviews per month.  

The goal of the new skin is to make the interface more welcoming and comfortable for readers and useful for advanced users. The project consists of a series of feature changes which, according to our testing, make it easier to read, navigate within the page, search, switch between languages, use page and user tools, and more.

Since July 2022, we have been discussing the process for potential deployment of the Vector 2022 skin as the new default skin for English Wikipedia. In that discussion, the community decided on the changes necessary before deployment, which the Web team is addressing and recommended an RfC as the next step.  

This RfC is available here and is now open for comments.  We would like to express our gratitude to everyone who helped in the process of drafting and giving feedback.  Thank you! OVasileva (WMF) (talk) 16:00, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Underline becomes overlineEdit

I have noticed that the underline text appears to be overlined when the wikilink is at the beginning of a section. This just started happening about a week ago. Any ideas for what's causing it? jps (talk) 16:44, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

 
From WP:FTN
See this discussion from three weeks ago. I'm not very good at understanding patch schedules, but from reading T317135, it appears that this bug may be fixed in the next version of MediaWiki (tech news link above), coming in the next 24 hours. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:53, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Thanks! I should have WP:RTFA. jps (talk) 17:06, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
I think that is a workaround, the bug seems to be from the browser. — xaosflux Talk 19:01, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

How to install CSS like we install JS?Edit

I know how to install JS in my global.js. I wonder how to install a CSS created by someone else at my global.css. Can someone help? CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {CX}) 17:10, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Assuming I understand the question correctly, if you don't want to just copy and paste it, you can use @import url("") CSS feature. So like:
@import url("https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:SMcCandlish/codefont.css&action=raw&bcache=1&maxage=86400&ctype=text/css");
from the instructions in m:User:SMcCandlish/codefont.css. (And MDN documentation). Skynxnex (talk) 18:37, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Thanks. This is what I was looking for. CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {CX}) 07:04, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Keep in mind that CSS loaded like this makes loading of every other CSS line slower, so a better idea might be to import CSS as JS like this:
mw.loader.load( 'https://ru.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Участник:Stjn/linter.css&action=raw&ctype=text/css', 'text/css' );
stjn 10:27, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Ah cool. I hadn't realized that loader could load CSS as well. Skynxnex (talk) 12:33, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Note loading CSS in a Javascript file will add to its processing time, and since I believe the Javascript executes after the page is visible, its appearance may then be altered after the load is complete. This might be an acceptable tradeoff depending on your specific circumstances, so you can try it out and see what works best for you. isaacl (talk) 07:03, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
The bcache=1 and maxage=86400 params in the URL do nothing. Index.php calls are never cached for logged-in users. – SD0001 (talk) 06:01, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
Thank you everyone. CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {CX}) 07:59, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Page unexpectedly seen on my watchlistEdit

Lately, I've seen a lot of pages on my watchlist which I cannot explain being there. Most (maybe all) of these are user talk pages for anonymous users. AFAICS, I don't have a user preference>watchlist set which might cause this. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 00:28, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I see that you're mainly using Huggle to post messages to IP talk pages. I'm not familiar with Huggle itself, but it probably has some setting somewhere about automatically watching a page if you edit it. Do you have that enabled? --rchard2scout (talk) 08:57, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
That may be it. I've had huggle related problems in the past and huggle options are more difficult for me to figure out that WP user preferences. I've got options I think might be related to this there turned off, but Huggle may be adding all the pages related to users I've looked at there to my watchlist. I dunno. Thanks. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 11:32, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Bots editing Village Pump ArchivesEdit

I was trying to sort by last edit date and I came across this Multiple bots seem to be updating archives. Archives are supposed to stay unchanged etc, but I think based on the history, they seem to fix one issue and leave.

Also a lot of it seems to do sigs having font's and colours, maybe the archive bots could strip those?

Or much bigger idea have the colours and fonts as the page is displayed, from the current sig, like the strikethrough for blocked users? Wakelamp d[@-@]b (talk) 12:00, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

@Wakelamp this is expected behavior. History stays the same forever, "archives" are just copy-paste to make it easy for readers to reference things - these updates are for the benefit of the readers. In many cases, they are restoring the content to look how it originally was intended - as the parser changed breaking certain old markups. — xaosflux Talk 12:39, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
I guess few users sort archives by last edit date so I wouldn't interfere with relevant bot edits to try to preserve an old date. You aren't supposed to make new posts to archives but fixing lint errors and formatting issues is perfectly fine whether bots or users do it. By the way, I have a script User:PrimeHunter/Search sort.js which can sort by all ten options at mw:Help:CirrusSearch#Explicit sort orders, not just the three at Special:Search. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:49, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
It's better to sort by creation date instead. That way the recently created archives always show up towards the top. – SD0001 (talk) 05:58, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Help me with this stupid formatting problemEdit

I've reformatted the "Support" section of Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Deployment of Vector (2022) to use automatic numbering (Special:Diff/1111910639)) but the complex formatting of the "Oppose" section has exceeded my ability. Could somebody who really understands how *, : and # really work in wiki-formatting please bail me out? Thanks. -- RoySmith (talk) 16:45, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

  Done * Pppery * it has begun... 16:59, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
@RoySmith: It's really quite easy. Consider a talk page discussion with various indent levels, and you want to reply to one of the posts: so you open up a fresh line, and copy all of the symbols (asterisk, colon or hash) from the line above, and add one more to their right. If you apply this principle to the RfC in question, it'll all fall into place. WP:COLAS has more, although it doesn't mention hashes, the principle is identical. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 23:40, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
RoySmith, see also a demonstration at Help:Talk pages/Example. —⁠andrybak (talk) 14:17, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

SelectRange doesn't scroll textareaEdit

See test script. (run it) This utilizes the selectRange() method from OO.ui.MultilineTextInputWidget which would "Focus the input and select a specified range within the text".
In Blink-based browsers (like Chrome) the textarea doesn't scroll at all. Ideally the selection would be centered. Is that even possible?Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 19:26, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I believe this is textarea ridiculousness. From memory, you need to set the cursor insertion point, then focus (which will then also scroll), and then select a range. It will scroll to the cursor insertion point, but not to a selection. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 09:05, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
Thanks, this seems to have worked.   For anyone else who might be interested, I used:
FTT.UITextInput.$input[0].blur();
FTT.UITextInput.$input[0].selectionEnd = RefStart; //move cursor to selection start
FTT.UITextInput.focus(); //scroll
FTT.UITextInput.$input[0].blur(); //blur so we can focus again
FTT.UITextInput.$input[0].selectionEnd = RefEnd; //move cursor to selection end
FTT.UITextInput.focus(); //scroll
FTT.UITextInput.selectRange(RefStart,RefEnd); //select
Edit: changed code to use $input which is easier to read, thx Nardog!Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 13:47, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
A jQuery object for the textarea element already exists as property $input. Nardog (talk) 13:52, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

IssueEdit

If I try to create a section on a talk page on mobile with a link (this was the link I was trying to use), it won’t save. Any help? 47.21.202.18 (talk) 20:02, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

47.21.202.18, Special:Captcha?Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 21:26, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Why didn't this ping work?Edit

In Special:Diff/1111826142, I should have gotten pinged, but I never received any notification. Why not? -- RoySmith (talk) 23:16, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

No signature.
Trappist the monk (talk) 23:19, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
See more at WP:MENTION. No signature is the most common cause. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:27, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Transcoding system unable to convert newer audiovisual uploads?Edit

I uploaded newer audio clips, but somehow there are error statuses, regardless of any original format. I tried purging and resetting without avail. George Ho (talk) 01:22, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

It's been broken for over 2 weeks. Please see phab:T317069. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 08:47, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

CIDR range tool doesn't appear to work with deleted contribsEdit

I can't find a previous mention of this. So, I was trying to find deleted contribs for an IP range. If I look at a single IP I can see their deleted contribs, no problem. However, if I extend that to a range, no deleted contributions appear at all, even if some exist. I have tried this on different ranges of random IPs and it seems to be standard.

Compare (Admin only, obviously):

Black Kite (talk) 06:12, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

phab:T183457. Izno (talk) 08:29, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
Mmm, that seems to have disappeared into a black hole, doesn't it? I'm surprised it wasn't actioned as part of phab:T163562. Black Kite (talk) 08:44, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
Yeah, MusikAnimal linked that in their comment as a "welp, we forgot a thing". Izno (talk) 09:13, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
In the ideal world, after the solution of something in the phab:T20493 direction, we wouldn't need two separate contribs pages. I think the reason it is like it is today is because one is looking at the revision table and one is looking at the revision archive table (it was an ancient decision that is effectively technical debt these days to have two tables). Izno (talk) 09:20, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
  • In addition to above, phab:T183457 has been hanging out since 2017 asking for this. — xaosflux Talk 10:12, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Bullets markup on mobile site are unintuitiveEdit

 
What it looks like
 
What the code actually is

On Wikipedia's mobile site, two consecutive lines with bullets look more spaced apart than two bullets with a line gap in between them, which is very unintuitive. As in the picture, bullets 2 & 3 are more spaced apart than bullets 1 & 2, despite the fact that bullets 2 & 3 are in consecutive lines, while there is an extra line between bullets 1 & 2. See example at Talk:Nijeder Mawte Nijeder Gaan. This is a very old issue, which I finally decided to report because it is breaking my brain. How can it be fixed? CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {CX}) 20:40, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

I found the code defining it this way here: https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/g/mediawiki/skins/MinervaNeue/+/6401472afb31690041d1a547fb8f7bc0fcd624eb/resources/skins.minerva.base.styles/content/lists.less#29
Some more digging revealed that it was originally added in 2015 in commit https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/c/mediawiki/extensions/MobileFrontend/+/199765 to fix https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T93784, which complained about poor readability of long lists, like references – it was difficult to distinguish where each item began and started, because the list items commonly take multiple lines, and at that time the list item "marker" wasn't visually indented like it is now (see screenshots in that task).
The markers were changed to be indented since then – it changed in 2019 in https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T150377 (see screenshots there for comparison), following a discussion that pointed out the exact same readability problems, and I actually worked on it myself (I honestly completely forgot). Looks like we didn't realize at the time that the weird margin was an attempt to fix the same thing.
So to summarize, there was a reason for it once, but it no longer makes much sense. I think people would be open to changing this if you filed a task describing the problem and/or submitted a patch. Matma Rex talk 21:10, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
@Matma Rex: Thank you for the detailed description. I've opened a task at phab:T318485. You may want to have a look at it. Also, I would've submitted a patch if I knew how to, but I don't know a thing about coding. CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {CX}) 21:38, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
CX Zoom, until a patch arrives you can add .content ul{padding-top:0.3em}.content li,.content li:last-child{margin-bottom:0.1em} to Special:MyPage/minerva.css.Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 21:48, 24 September 2022 (UTC)