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July 4

Using the free VPN feature of the Opera browser

Is there a way to choose a specific country (where the connection appears to come from) when one uses the free VPN feature of the Opera browser? I installed Opera and when I tried to choose the country it only gave me the option between several regions of the world (Europe, Asia, North America, ...) but not how to pick a specific country in those regions. The explanation of their Help Chatbot was either unintelligible or false. Has anyone here used Opera and their free VPN and can they tell me if what I want to do is possible? Or is that a feature of their pro VPN? How about other free VPNs (like ProtonVPN): do they allow the free choice of the country or is that a premium feature that only paying VPNs allow? 178.51.74.75 (talk) 06:51, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

According to the comparison chart at [1], the free Opera VPN has "3 general locations" and the paid version has "30+ unique locations" but doesn't say if you get to choose a country or if there are just more region choices. There is an Opera forum at [2] where you might be able to get more information. RudolfRed (talk) 18:46, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Fourier transform and eigenvalues

Did x raised to the n with n being an odd number most likely follow (come after) the Uxx operator and eigenvalues? Afrazer123 (talk) 22:05, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

There is going to have to be some clarification before an answer appears. By Uxx do you mean ${\partial ^{2} \over \partial x^{2}}$ ? And is your xⁿ supposed to be part of your Fourier transform calculation? Perhaps https://cuhkmath.wordpress.com/2013/05/10/fourier-coefficients-as-eigenvalues-spectrum/ is of interest to you. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 04:33, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, where x is a collection of spatial variables for u(x,t) and t is time. No. Afrazer123 (talk) 20:41, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

July 7

How to quiet certain pitches in an audio file?

I've got an audio file and I think that the lower pitches are too loud and I want to make them quiet. I don't want to remove them entirely, just make them quieter. I suspect that it is possible to do this with Audacity, but I can't figure out how. Any help would be greatly appreciated. ―Panamitsu (talk) 02:59, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Most media players have an equalizer of some kind you could play with first to test to see if that's the problem. In VLC media player, for example, the equalizer can be found by clicking on Tools - Effects and Filters and selecting "audio effects" from the pop-up window. Matt Deres (talk) 01:29, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

That's it, thanks. EQ is what I was after. ―Panamitsu (talk) 06:14, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

July 8

Solving heat equation using Fourier series

Do "the boundary conditions u(0,t)=0=u(L,t)" imply the use of instrumentation or mechanics? As part of the solution to u(x,t), D_subscript_n was solved using integration. Afrazer123 (talk) 06:21, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Boundary conditions would be a an assumption made to make a particular problem solvable and come up with a particular solution rather than just an equation. Perhaps you could assume that the value was measured at 0. But complete measurement time time=-infinity to +infinity will never happen. So you had better imagine it. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 06:55, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

These boundary conditions do not imply the use of either instrumentation or mechanics. They represent nothing but a simple special case for which the heat equation can be solved purely analytically, given also an initial condition of the form $u(x,0)=f(x),x\in [0,L].$  --Lambiam 10:29, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

July 9

Possible battery problem

I always use my laptop (a Dell Latitude) plugged in to the power supply. Every so often, apparently completely at random, the power indicator in the system tray starts strobing, as if the battery needs charging. Soon after the "Your battery level is very low" warning flashes up, and the computer goes into hibernation. When I restart it, battery level strobes for a few more seconds, but then stabilizes back at 100%. Can anyone suggest a reason for this behavior? Would a new battery help, or am I looking at replacing the whole power unit (if that's even possible)? Rojomoke (talk) 06:34, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

In our office setting, that tends to indicate a bad battery. We get about two years out of a Dell laptop battery on average. I'm sure if I ran the numbers, it would be somewhere between 2 and 3, but at 2, we plan ahead to replace the battery or the entire laptop. Batteries are not very expensive. We pay $60/battery buying in bulk, so I expect yours would be around $80. Then, you can know for certain if it is a battery issue or a driver issue or a charger issue, etc... 12.116.29.106 (talk) 11:40, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Area and Google Earth

This isn't really a computing problem, but I'll ask here. My cousin and I needed to get the area of a piece of land that is bounded by a hexagon. He used a planimeter and he sent me a printout from Google Earth, with the lines drawn and a line segment scale showing "1000 feet". I used a website that will give the area of quadrilaterals (with the hexagon broken into two quadrilaterals). I double-checked with county tax maps, which gives the area of a more inclusive area. My method gave a result that was inconsistent with the other two methods. The only way to reconcile the methods is if the 1000-foot scale on Google Earth is actually about 730 feet.

Can the scale on Google Earth be that far off? `Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 20:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

What was the planimeter used on? The same printout?  --Lambiam 20:37, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I believe so, but I'm, not sure. My cousin sent me the paper with the Google Earth map with his measurements of the area on it. But that raises the question - how did his planimeter get it right if it used the wrong legend from Google Earth? I used a ruler and protractor on the tax map, and it is consistent with his figures but not with mine. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 21:22, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

What I'm really getting at is if it is known that the scale given on Google Earth can be grossly in error? Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 04:55, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Google Earth gives a 3D rendering, which can result in distortions when a piece of terrain is viewed under an angle. If you have the geolocation, you can compare the printout with Google Maps satellite view.

Perhaps the website giving quadrilateral areas is broken. There is a relatively simple formula for determining the area of a simple polygon given the Cartesian coordinates of its vertices, called the shoelace formula.  --Lambiam 05:23, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

You could always check by repeating your exercise against something that you know the real-world distances for. For example, if there is a running track nearby or even a regulation football/baseball field, that kind of thing. Pitcher's rubber to home plate will be 60'6", etc. Matt Deres (talk) 14:53, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Good suggestion. I'll look for a football field. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 21:49, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Well, I measured a football field and it is within 2%. So that doesn't solve the mystery of the inconsistency. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 22:29, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

We do not have enough detailed information to point to a likely origin. Can the outcomes be divided into two groups, say group A and group B, such that the inconsistencies are only between outcomes in group A and outcomes in group B (so either group just by itself is not plagued by inconsistencies)? If so, is one group considerably smaller than the other one? Or do the measurements and procedures determining the various outcomes in one group have an element in common not shared with the other group?  --Lambiam 17:43, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

July 10

DNG patent

I want to know when Adobe's patent for DNG expires. The Wikipedia article has a section about it but no certain expiry date. I think patents expire after 20 years, but I searched the web and couldn't find the filing date, or anything really. Thanks for your help. Commander Keane (talk) 06:53, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Researching, it appears that there are questions about Adobe's claim of a patent. Adobe does have patents, but multiple websites, including the Library of Congress, point to Adobe's self-published "patent license" web page and do not include any information about the patent itself. Of those pages, many point out that there is no patent reference for the patent license. Searching for patents is easy. I can state that there is no patent by Adobe that includes "DNG" in any form. It is a specification for camera raw format files. I found no patents for adobe that include "camera" in the title or body of the text. Therefore, it is difficult to identify which patent, assuming there is a patent, is being referenced by Adobe's "patent license." 75.136.148.8 (talk) 12:50, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Interesting. Can you search "Digital Negative" to be thorough? Commander Keane (talk) 20:44, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

The closest I can find is patent 7636469, which I doubt is the patent Adobe is using for DNG. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 11:52, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Adobe's Digital Negative (DNG) Specification, Version 1.7.1.0, September 2023, opens with the statement: "The Digital Negative (DNG) Specification describes a non-proprietary file format for storing camera raw files that can be used by a wide range of hardware and software vendors."^[3] [my emphasis by underlining. --L.] So while Adobe states that the file format is non-proprietary, at the same time Adobe requires people distributing an implementation of that format to display a prominent notice: "This product includes DNG technology under license by Adobe." It does not make sense.  --Lambiam 17:59, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Well if you are not using the "license" then you would not have to display that message. But you should also look out for trademark restrictions. I suspect it is a variation of a paid license, but no pay is required to use this. Perhaps you could have a compatible product without a claim that it was. If you seriously want to develop a product, use the specification and not put on the notice, I suggest you consult a lawyer. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 02:04, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

I think only seasoned lawyers can interpret the language of Adobe's DNG Specification patent license. As I (but IANAL) interpret it, the text does not imply that this is a patent licence in the sense of a licence granted by a patent owner. The requirement of the prominent notice applies to all licensees who distribute a compatible product regardless of any claims they make (other than the notice itself). Again, IANAL, but I can't think of a legal argument why a vendor of a compatible implementation should avail themselves of this weird licence.  --Lambiam 06:59, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Although I was just generally curious an application would be phab:T21153. So WMF legal should be consulted? Commander Keane (talk) 02:49, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

June 29

Narwhal courtship

Hey, I would love to know the courtship behavior of this weird yet incredible creature. Wolverine XI ^{(talk to me)} 08:35, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

The article on Narwhal is assessed as a "Good Article", but it is rather weak on their courtship. Abductive (reasoning) 09:44, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I bought this book called "Sex in Cetaceans" from Amazon about a month ago; I'll let you know if I find anything. Wolverine XI ^{(talk to me)} 10:17, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

[T]he finer details of what goes on during this mating season are largely unknown due to the difficulties of observing the animals in their natural habitat, which is covered in dense ice that has just a few percent of open water [...and] researchers have yet to identify any noises specific to mating or courtship [...]

• Castro, Joseph (5 June 2017). "Animal Sex: How Narwhals Do It". livescience.com. Future US, Inc.

Although much of what we know about their courtship and mating habits is based on indirect evidence and speculation, perhaps size matters.

See:

• Hunt, Katie (18 March 2020). "We finally know why narwals have tusks (Hint: It has to do with sex)". CNN.
• Graham, Zackary A.; Garde, Eva; Heide-Jørgensen, Mads Peter; Palaoro, Alexandre V. (March 2020). "The longer the better: evidence that narwhal tusks are sexually selected". Biology Letters. p. 20190950. doi:10.1098/rsbl.2019.0950.

--136.54.106.120 (talk) 18:07, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Then that means the article is comprehensive, since we already mention the tusk stuff under description. Wolverine XI ^{(talk to me)} 21:31, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Safely moving a gas appliance

OK, it's getting close to that time again when I have to clean my dryer duct (which requires me to move my gas-powered dryer away from the wall, disconnect the duct, install a mesh guard and reconnect the duct prior to cleaning the duct from the outside in while running the dryer to blow the lint out (mostly all over my face and clothes until I end up looking like Dick Van Dyke the chimney sweep in the film Mary Poppins), and then perform the same operation in reverse and push the thing back into its normal position after completing the cleaning). Last time I did this, though, it caused a big problem: pulling the dryer out from the wall went without a hitch, and for the most part so did the cleaning (except that I got all dirty like I already said above, and I got blisters and cuts on my hands from forcing the brush in, because the lint was hard-packed in places) -- but when I pushed the dryer back in, the fitting connecting it to the (supposedly flexible) gas hose "popped" in a way I've never seen before (and hope to never see again), completely disconnecting the hose from the dryer, and causing gas to start pouring in full blast from the still-open hose (fortunately I managed to shut off the main gas valve before the gas could reach its lower ignition limit, or this could have been a real disaster!) So, for next time, are there any tips for me how to pull the dryer out and push it back in without risking this happening again? 2601:646:8082:BA0:DC11:A4D3:D067:7B8E (talk) 23:37, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Have you considered hiring a professional? Sometimes saving money can be expensive. --136.54.106.120 (talk) 00:27, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

This is a reference desk, not an instruction guide. In any case you should not take advice on maintaining gas appliances from random people on the internet. Get a professional to do it. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:59, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

I'd expect a shut-off valve between the fixed pipe coming out of the wall and the supposedly flexible hose connecting it to the the dryer (there was one for the gas hob where I used to live; I now live gas free), but if there's none, there's only the main gas valve. I suggest closing it before moving the dryer, just to be sure. PiusImpavidus (talk) 09:14, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, there is indeed a shut-off valve for the dryer, which I will consider closing before moving the thing (hopefully it will run in "air fluff" mode even with the gas shut off?) My question, though, was about how to move the appliance in such a way as to avoid the risk of rupturing the gas connection??? 2601:646:8082:BA0:DC11:A4D3:D067:7B8E (talk) 23:28, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

You obtain from the hardware store these little discs called "furniture sliders", some are felt and some are hard plastic, and put them under the feet of the dryer. Have a potato ready to jam in the gas line should it rupture. Abductive (reasoning) 06:40, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! Or maybe I'll put a rug under it, and use that to pull it out and back in -- would that help reduce the risk of rupture? And maybe I'll pull out the washing machine as well, to make it easier to reach the valve in case the hose lets go again! 2601:646:8082:BA0:DC11:A4D3:D067:7B8E (talk) 21:49, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

My guess is that the hose was already halfway off after the first part of the procedure (moving the dryer away from the wall); being unaware of the risk of it slipping off you didn't notice it. Was the hose secured to the fitting with a tight hose clamp? This reduces the risk of accidental unintended disconnection.  --Lambiam 08:50, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

No, it was not secured, and it still isn't (the person who installed the new hose didn't bother with a clamp) -- I'll make sure to fix that before attempting to clean the duct! Also, FYI, the old hose was at least 10 years old (and probably at least a couple years older than that -- God knows how long the previous owners lived in my house before I bought it from them, and from all the signs they didn't bother to do any maintenance to any of the appliances, they didn't even bother to flush the water heater, whereas I flush it every fall) -- so I think corrosion might have been a factor too! 2601:646:8082:BA0:DC11:A4D3:D067:7B8E (talk) 21:49, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Everywhere I've seen in the US, the "gas connector"--the segment of gas-line from the permanent house infrastructure (near appliance shut-off valve) and the appliance itself is flexible metal with flared threaded connectors, or occasionally rigid metal like the house piping itself. I haven't seen anything that would have a hose clamp in decades. There is an older vs newer style of flexible metal tubing, with the newer ones (CSST: "corrugated stainless steel tubing") apparently designed to overcome how easily the older ones broke (older ones do not meet current code if I recall). So first order of business is make sure what you now have is up to code as far as type of connector and material. I'm not a plumber though, so best to check with one, or at least read product literature carefully at your local supply store. DMacks (talk) 16:07, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Right -- and to clarify, last time it was actually the connector (presumably of the flared threaded type as you describe) which "popped", i.e. separated circumferentially into 2 unequal parts, thereby completely disconnecting the tubing from the appliance -- not the tubing itself! (Which is why I think corrosion probably played a part -- there's no way I can see such a fitting doing this unless the threads were rusted through, and with the thing having spent well over 10 years exposed to high humidity, car exhaust, chemicals, etc., this does sound plausible!) 2601:646:8082:BA0:DC11:A4D3:D067:7B8E (talk) 23:51, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

There are a gazillion instructional videos on youtube about stuff like this, if it helps. I've used them to fix various issues on cars, computers, and more recently a washing machine. Anyway, this is Wikipedia and I like to think that taking knowledge into our own hands (with some common sense precautions) is a good thing. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:9BB0 (talk) 03:23, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

June 30

Where does USA show its non-lawsuit certified 30yr station pressure averages?

I know at least 1 free commercial site lets you find hourly pressure since long enough ago but 30yrs would be manually averaging many thousands of numbers on 10,958 webpages one per day. I just want the regular $0 version not the paid certificated version for lawyers, bridge engineers etc Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 15:26, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

By "station" do you mean "weather station" and by "pressure" do you mean "atmospheric pressure"? (If so, I don't know the answer, but I was struggling to understand the question, so perhaps others were also.)

Is the mention of bridge engineers pertinent to your reason for asking, or an inadvertent red herring? 151.227.226.178 (talk) 09:57, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Weather station, atmospheric pressure. On one of the government weather/climate websites I saw a link to certified super-duper extra-checked data intended for lawsuits etc but presumably anyone can pay. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 12:50, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

And a specific weather station, not all of them averaged together (the only weather textbook I was lucky enough to have read (an undergraduate weather 101-level covering all meteorology) just called them stations) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:00, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Is there any difference between, what "no rest-mass" means, and what "zero rest-mass" means?

1. Some authors write "light has no rest-mass", whereas others write "light has zero rest-mass".

2. There are some arguments against ascribing any rest-mass, even a zero rest-mass, to the light, e.g.

First, The formula of relativistic momentum may collapse once any value, including any zero value, is substituted for the rest-mass in that formula.

Second, light cannot be at rest, hence - logically - it cannot carry any rest-mass. That said, and bearing in mind - that although (for example) the function $f(x)=1/x$ has no value at $x=0$ this does not mean that the value of the function $f(x)=1/x$ at $x=0$ is zero - and more generally: when we don't ascribe "any value" to a property we don't mean the value of the property is zero, the same must be true for what we (don't) mean by "light has no rest-mass".

Third, from a logical point of view: Any sentence, whether true or flase, may be substituted for A in the true sentence "If light is at rest then A". Hence, for any value X, we will always get it right saying "If light is at rest then its mass will then be X". Hence for any value X, we will always get it right saying "if light has a rest mass then its value is X". Hence we would collide with a contradiction, if we assumed light carried any rest mass - even a zero one only.

3. On the other hand, there is a well known argument in favor of ascribing a zero rest-mass, to the light: This is actually a direct consequence, of combining the formulas $E^{2}=m_{0}^{2}c^{4}+p^{2}c^{2}$, and $E_{light}=p_{light}c.$

4. To sum up: Bearing in mind the pros and cons for/against ascribing a zero rest-mass to the light, I wonder if light, has no rest-mass at all, even not a zero rest-mass, or it still has a zero rest-mass.

HOTmag (talk) 16:37, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

To me, this relates more to semantics than physics. "Zero rest-mass" implies a countable quantity, as if it could be measured; "no rest-mass" suggests that rest-mass is not necessarily measurable. My understanding (based on knowledge from c.1980s) is that photons do not have a defined mass in a stationary state; and, "zero" is useful as a construct. --136.54.106.120 (talk) 18:02, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

As to your last word: I suspect zero can't be a construct. For more details, see my previous response, in its section 2, against ascribing any rest mass to the light, even a zero rest mass only. HOTmag (talk) 10:43, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I was thinking of the noun "construct" referring to using "zero" as a logical placeholder for the absence of anything, nonexistence or "nothing" -- rather than a cardinal number. --136.54.106.120 (talk) 17:58, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

See my first response. Its section 3 gives an argument for ascribing a zero rest-mass to the light, zero being a cardinal number. On the other hand: section 2 gives three arguments against ascribing any rest mass - including a zero rest-mass - to the light, zero being a cardinal number. That's why I asked my question indicated in section 4. HOTmag (talk) 18:34, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

The concept of "zero" overlaps mathematics and philosophy. One could say that there are varying forms of nonexistence (?) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.54.106.120 (talk) 18:53, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

It seems you didn't get my point. I'm focusing on the contradiction between section 2 and section 3, both referring to zero as a cardinal number. The implicit question was: Can anyone remove the contradiction? HOTmag (talk) 20:32, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Okay, shifting focus from philosophy to physics: quantum electrodynamics and the Standard Model of particle physics treat photons as massless particles, providing theoretical support for zero rest mass.[4] [5] Nevertheless, a photon at rest is a non-entity. --136.54.106.120 (talk) 22:08, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

A. Re. your first source: It claims light has a non-zero rest mass.

B. Re. your second source: Why didn't you provide also my section 3 as an additional "theoretical support for zero rest mass?"

C. However, please notice my section 3 contradicts my section 2. Also your second source contradicts my section 2. The implicit question was: Can anyone remove the contradiction?

D. Re. your last sentence. From a logical point of view, saying that "a photon at rest is a non-entity", is the same as saying that "light cannot be at rest". So, not only do I know that a photon at rest is a non-entity, i.e that light cannot be at rest, I also use this fact for establishing my section 2 (in its "Second" and "Third" paragraphs).

HOTmag (talk) 22:47, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

The real numbers are a field, which implies it has both an additive and a multiplicative identity, traditionally denoted by 0 and 1. These elements are true real numbers, not cardinal numbers.

There is a traditional embedding of the finite cardinal numbers in the real numbers which sends the cardinal number 0 to the real number 0 and the cardinal number 1 to the real number 1, but this fact does not turn these real numbers into cardinal numbers.

Since 0 kg = 0 μg = 0 oz = 0 Da, there is no need to specify the unit; "zero mass" is unambiguous.  --Lambiam 23:43, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

As to cardinal numbers: Please notice I hadn't been the first to claim that zero was a "cardinal number". The anonymous user I responded to had, and I only followed them, adopting the term "cardinal number" they had already used, so your response should have responded to them rather than to me.

As to your last sentence: Did anyone claim there was a need to specify the unit? I only claimed there was a contradiction between sections 2,3 in my first post, and I asked if anyone could remove the contradiction. If you think there is anything wrong in my arguments in section 2 against attributing a zero rest-mass to a photon, please specify - both the wrong argument - and what's wrong in it. HOTmag (talk) 11:37, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Re:

A) First source: I only read the abstract and noted This review attempts to assess the status of our current knowledge and understanding of the photon rest mass, with particular emphasis on a discussion of the various experimental methods that have been used to set upper limits on it. [And, yet]: failure to find a finite photon mass in any one experiment or class of experiments is not proof that it is identically zero and, even as the experimental limits move more closely towards the fundamental bounds of measurement uncertainty, new conceptual approaches to the task continue to appear.

B) Your #3 section does indeed support zero rest mass; otherwise, particles with non-zero rest mass cannot travel at the speed of light, as it would require infinite energy. Since photons always travel at the speed of light in vacuum, they must have zero rest mass.

...To be continued? (gotta go now) --136.54.106.120 (talk) 00:03, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

It is (I think) conceivable that not all photons travel at exactly the same speed; if the slowest photons move at a fraction of 10⁻⁸⁰ slower than the fastest ones, we would not be able to detect that experimentally. Photons traveling in vacuum are traveling through quantum foam. It is presently unclear if that affects their speed; see Quantum foam § Experimental results  --Lambiam 10:51, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

A) See p. 81 in your first source: In section 2, we introduce the theoretical foundation for massive photons, via a discussion of the Proca equations... Using the Proca equations as a starting point, several possible observable effects associated with a nonzero rest mass of the photon are developed in section 3.

B) You are actually repeating what I'd claimed in section 3. However, my question, was not about section 3 you're repeating, nor about my section 2 whose consequence actually contradicts the opposite consequence of my section 3, but rather about whether this contradiction could be removed. For it to be removed, one should show what's wrong in my argument in section 2 or in section 3. For showing what's wrong in such an argument, one should quote the wrong step in that argument and then explain why this step is logically wrong. HOTmag (talk) 11:37, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

"Rest mass" is just another term for "invariant mass", a property of a physical object that is not dependent on the coordinate system of an observer – in contrast to its relativistic mass, which can be different for different observers. When no confusion is possible, physicists will use just "mass" instead of "invariant mass" and describe the photon as a massless particle. This has the same meaning as saying that photons have zero invariant mass, or equivalently that they have zero rest mass. It is pointless to seek more behind this expression.  --Lambiam 18:46, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Re. your first sentence: Yes, this is a well known fact.

Re. your second sentence. Those who use the term "massless" don't recognize the relativistic mass. But if you're among those who do, then you should avoid the confusing term "massless", because any particle (e.g. a photon) carrying no rest mass does carry a non-zero relativistic mass.

Re. your last two sentences: I guess you want to claim that the term "a photon's rest mass" doesn't mean "a photon's mass when at rest". But if so, then "a photon's rest mass" must mean "a photon relativistic mass", whereas this kind of mass is non-zero, so how does this interpretation of "rest mass" relate to my question about those authors who claim that a photon carries a zero rest mass? HOTmag (talk) 20:29, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

This thread reminds me of Codd's Null (SQL). A null indicates a lack of a value, which is not the same thing as a zero value. "No rest mass" seems pretty like the null case. Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:50, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, Just as the function $f(x)=1/x$ at $x=0$ is a null case.

So, combining the formulas $E^{2}=M_{0}^{2}C^{4}+P^{2}C^{2}$, and $E_{light}=P_{light}C,$ does not let us conclude that a photon carries a zero rest mass $M_{0},$ because the first formula $E^{2}=M_{0}^{2}C^{4}+P^{2}C^{2}$ only refers to bodies carrying a rest mass $M_{0},$ while a photon's rest mass is a null case - because a photon can't be at rest. HOTmag (talk) 19:07, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Maybe you overlooked the statement that "rest mass" is just another term for "invariant mass". So "a photon's rest mass" means "a photon's invariant mass". Maybe you also overlooked the mentioned restriction to cases when no confusion is possible. But I fear that for some people confusion is always a possibility.  --Lambiam 18:28, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I didn't overlook the statement that "rest mass" is just another term for "invariant mass". On the contrary, I explicitly pointed out in my last response: Re. your first sentence: Yes, this is a well known fact. So, I already agreed that "rest mass" was just another term for "invariant mass".

I also didn't overlook the mentioned restriction to cases when no confusion was possible. On the contrary, I explicitly pointed out in my last response: Those who use the term "massless" don't recognize the relativistic mass. But if you're among those who do, then you should avoid the confusing term "massless", because any particle (e.g. a photon) carrying no rest mass does carry a non-zero relativistic mass. In other words, those "cases when no confusion is possible" are only those cases when the relativistic mass is not recognized.

To sum up: there are only two kinds of a given body's mass:

A. The body's current relativistic mass. Please notice, the value of this kind of mass is always non-zero, even if the body is a photon.

B. The body's invariant mass, i.e. the body's rest mass, i.e. the relativistic mass the body would have carried if it had been at rest. Please notice, the very existence of this kind of mass depends on whether the body is a massive one or is a photon: If it's a photon, which actually can't have a rest, then it can't have a rest mass either, logically speaking.

My question was about those authors who claimed that a photon carried a zero rest mass, as opposed to B. HOTmag (talk) 18:56, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

From the formula relating relativistic mass to invariant mass, it follows that the invariant mass of a photon must be zero, but its relativistic mass need not be. The phrase "The rest mass of a photon is zero" might sound nonsensical because the photon can never be at rest; but this is just a side effect of the terminology, since by making this statement, we can bring photons into the same mathematical formalism as the everyday particles that do have rest mass.^[6]  --Lambiam 07:03, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

we can bring photons into the same mathematical formalism as the everyday particles that do have rest mass.

I have already referred to this kind of argument, in my first post, section 2, paragraphs "First" and "Third". HOTmag (talk) 20:04, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

I know, so I don't get why you don't think this solves the issue and get on with your life.  --Lambiam 07:39, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

What do you mean by "this"? Is "this", this kind of argument you've quoted, or "this" is how I had already refuted it? HOTmag (talk) 08:53, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

July 1

What are the defining characteristics of the bird clade “telluraves” + what distinguishes birds in its subclade “australaves” from the other subclade, “afroaves”?

Quickly saying, I asked here because the references are far too complex to understand, and the Wikipedia pages don’t list defining characteristics. 38.23.177.112 (talk) 03:09, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

This paper says, "No morphological apomorphies are known", which I guess means it's just molecular. Abductive (reasoning) 06:47, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

One reason with I hate phylogeny… without distinguishing traits, how can clades be properly defined?

Am I the only person who hates phylogeny for this particular reason? 38.23.177.112 (talk) 10:22, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm sure it bugs many people. But one can only hate phylogeny if one cares about phylogeny. And unless one is publishing scientific articles in the field, hating it will accomplish nothing. Abductive (reasoning) 21:04, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I suspect that hating phylogeny will accomplish very little also for people publishing scientific articles in the field.  --Lambiam 18:06, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

July 2

Does any company still make black and white TVs?

Just wondering. I had a black and white TV in my room as a kid in the late 80s, used a black and white TV that came with my flat in the early 2000s and (apparently) the TV license in the UK is still cheaper for black and white even now. Iloveparrots (talk) 01:56, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

It seems highly unlikely. Why would anybody continue to make a product for which there is no demand? And if, for some reason, you wanted to view the screen that way, you could just turn the color off on a regular, color TV. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:31, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Steady on there with the 'no demand'. According to this, there were "4,200 black and white TV licences in force in March 2022" in the UK, and I imagine some of those people are quite demanding. I was thinking about this recently, that families often didn't own TVs back in the black and white days in the UK, they rented them from DER. Maybe not owning things, appliances etc., will make a comeback one day if the price (no cost) and logistics (arrives instantaneously) work. Still waiting for that communist utopia I was promised as a child... Sean.hoyland (talk) 09:55, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

This 2008 BBC article says that new blank & white televisions can still be found in the UK, but I imagine that they would have been from old stock rather than newly manufactured. A reasonably thorough Google search failed to find any actual new ones. Alansplodge (talk) 15:26, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Blind people qualify for a 50% discount on their UK TV licence; a B&W licence is a third of the price of a colour one. So by going B&W (which they may not be able to see anyway) they pay about one sixth (£28.50) of the full price (£169.50). -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 17:32, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

It seems amazingly regressive that everyone has to pay hundreds of dollars or £169.99 a year to own a TV (more than throwing a basic TV in the Thames every year and almost as much as basic cable just for BBC). In the states they offered everyone a subsidy just to avoid the much cheaper one-time cost of the box to run analog TVs on digital signals. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:21, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

In the words of Frank Zappa, "Communism doesn't work, because people like to own stuff." Regarding old TV's in stock, I recall not too many decades ago reading that there were still after-market parts available for the Model A Ford, which hadn't been manufactured since the 1930s. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:38, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Baseball Bugs, this company says they have over 500,000 Model A parts in stock, and they have quite a few competitors. Cullen328 (talk) 20:11, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

All the better! And I would suspect there are still companies making tubes for old radios and televisions. Not to mention phonograph needles for antique Victrolas. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:31, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

I saw a YouTube video a while back where someone took a Model T to a Ford service centre. The people there had no problem with fixing it up, for what it's worth. Iloveparrots (talk) 02:27, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

I expanded the concept slightly, and found a bunch of suppliers of new monochrome monitors built with modern technology and wiring (LCD with DVI, etc.). Get a tuner for your favorite local broadcast mode and you're all set. Lots of medical and other imaging is intrinsically monochrome, so there's a market for monitors optimized for high resolution and other visual qualities rather than colors and their rendering properties. DMacks (talk) 16:19, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Many years ago I had what might be described as "television on the go". It was black and white and the screen was about two inches wide. 2A02:C7B:204:8E00:E0E4:8C0D:4571:6A6F (talk) 14:59, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Why didn't those very small TVs get more popular than they did? Small battery-powered radios got popular, Walkmen got popular, wireless boomboxes got popular, portable record players got popular. Did they ever reach battery-powered flatscreen color before streaming video crippled sales? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:55, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

One reason is that they soaked up battery power, and if mains was available why have a tiny TV? Martin of Sheffield (talk) 20:02, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Watching any sport involving fast activity (e.g. cricket or baseball) would be pointless on such a small screen. Golf would also be challenging. HiLo48 (talk) 01:29, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

If you could speedread 20/15 line with nearsighted glasses (which shrink everything) and focus 4 inches from cornea like the first few decades of my life then you could see pixels on 2 inch diagonal full HDs. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:20, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

I had a couple of pocket TVs back in the day. The reception on them was pretty poor. Like watching everything through snow. Maybe that was the reason? Yes, they also are batteries very fast too. Faster than the original Gameboy, which was notorious for consuming batteries. Iloveparrots (talk) 02:24, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

I found this 2007 article from the Denver Post which says: "The most dangerous inmates in isolated lockdown, such as those at the “Supermax” facility in Florence, have access to black-and-white TVs in their cells.". And this 2023 CNN article says that is still the case. 213.125.228.2 (talk) 12:49, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

July 6

wildlife and heat

I'm in suburban northern California and we've had a serious heat wave this week, like 100+F all day reaching 107F in the late afternoon. I've had to go outside a few times and it's tolerable (like a sauna) if I don't stay out too long or do anything strenous. I don't think I could stand being outside all day even under tree cover. I have a contingency plan to head for the ocean (where it is cooler) if the power and AC should happen to go out here.

There are deer and other wildlife in the area. Any idea how they cope? Will they be ok? I think this amount of heat is unusual. Last year it may have hit 103 on a few occasions but not for multi-day periods like this.

There are some natural water sources (creeks) nearby that weren't dried up as of a few weeks ago, but I don't know about now. They did dry up in the worse parts of the drought a few years ago. So that's not so great either. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:9BB0 (talk) 01:11, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

If they are anything like kangaroos they sleep in the forest or other shade during the day and graze at night. During the day you'll see all the sheep and alpacas crammed into whatever shade is available. We don't get deer locally so it may be they can't cope with our heatwaves, but I suspect prevalence of foxes and big feral cats has more to do with that. Greglocock (talk) 03:56, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

There's been some mention in the news that wildlife does suffer in the increased heat. Abductive (reasoning) 18:33, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

More than 1 billion sea creatures along the Vancouver coast were cooked to death during a record-breaking heat wave Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:21, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Why some wild animals are getting insomnia - Abductive (reasoning) 19:47, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Another Australian observation is that water unavailability is more likely kill than heat alone. On super hot days here in Melbourne (46 degrees C), I've been able to walk up to wild birds sheltering in the shade on the ground with a dish of fresh, cool water. They understand. We also have stories of animals who are normally enemies sharing a farm dam to survive. These stories have included humans and tiger snakes

Thanks all. I checked the two creeks around here. One is empty though the dirt on the bottom is not bone dry yet. The other has some running water though I think the level is lower than before. There are also some artificial ponds with signs saying "recycled water". No idea what contaminants that might have, but if I were a deer I guess I'd drink it if I had to. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:9BB0 (talk) 20:44, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

July 7

Average reading speed?

What is the average reading speed? Can you also say what the reading speed range is? In other words, words per minute. 2A02:8071:60A0:92E0:F986:A49B:556A:30A5 (talk) 16:06, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

"Based on the analysis of 190 studies (18,573 participants), we estimate that the average silent reading rate for adults in English is 238 words per minute (wpm) for non-fiction and 260 wpm for fiction. The difference can be predicted by taking into account the length of the words, with longer words in non-fiction than in fiction." Also: "For silent reading of English non-fiction most adults fall in the range of 175 to 300 wpm; for fiction the range is 200 to 320 wpm." from How many words do we read per minute? A review and meta-analysis of reading rate August 2019 Journal of Memory and Language [7] Modocc (talk) 16:44, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Bird in Madagascar that resembles a black chicken with webbed feet

As a child in Madagascar I once saw a bird. We were on a boat going through a slow-moving river, somewhere in the northwest, probably in Mahajanga. There was an emergent mass of reeds and in those reeds I saw what looked like a shiny black chicken with webbed feet like a duck. Looked just like a typical chicken besides the feet. It’s possible the reed mass was actually a shallow island, like a bar of sand or clay with some grasses. I need to know what it was! ꧁Zanahary꧂ 21:50, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

How about Fulica cristata? If not, try going through List of birds of Madagascar and clicking on the links. It's what I just did. Abductive (reasoning) 22:59, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! Unfortunately that’s not it (note the chicken/shorebird-like feet)—I looked through the list (which appears incomplete) and don’t see her anywhere. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 00:17, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

my first guess was also a coot, because the Eurasian coot (which I am familiar with) kinda looks like a floating chicken (but doesn't live in Madagascar according to the map). That's the Fulica Atra, so family of Abductive's guess. Note that they don't have fully webbed feet, but rather have wide flaps. Depending on angle and spread of the feet, these can look very much like webbed feet though (note: that's my OR). Rmvandijk (talk) 13:47, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

The Madagascar pochard?  --Lambiam 01:58, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

No, it was really like a chicken, with a little beak, not a bill. Thank you very much for looking! ꧁Zanahary꧂ 04:22, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

July 8

Japanese basal temperature unit OV

The dictionary definition of OV at Wiktionary (also ㍵) says:

• (ōbui)

1. unit of basal body temperature, 0 being 35.5 °C and 50 being 38 °C, used for fertility awareness

However Wiktionary has no references. I cannot find references elsewhere. Maybe they exist but searching for "OV", especially when including "ovulation" gives many false positives. Can you find a reference for the existence and meaning of this unit, preferably in a language I can understand, such as English or Spanish? I guess most references are in Japanese, that I don't understand. -- Error (talk) 10:44, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

"*Women's thermometers use the "OV value" so that slight changes in body temperature can be read."

"This is a value that divides the range of 35.5 to 38.0°C into 50 equal parts."

Original source: [8]

Translated source:[9] OptoFidelty (talk) 01:06, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

It was rejected as promotional material. --Error (talk) 23:46, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Hillock of His/Hiss

I learned of the "hillocks of Hiss" from the wikipedia article on Tubercle Tubercle#Ears

From looking at other sources, I see they're also spelt "hillocks of his" -- What I cannot find out, and what I'm asking y'all is, *why* they are called 'Hiss/His' are they named for a person?140.147.160.225 (talk) 12:02, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Presumably named for Wilhelm His Sr. or Wilhelm His Jr.. --Amble (talk) 16:47, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

In a book on the pathophysiology of orbital diseases I found this sentence:^[10]

In 1868, Hiss demonstrated that shortly after gastrulation, a different type of cell was formed between the ectoderm and the paraxial mesoderm on both sides of the neural tube.⁹

I bet this is the same His(s) as that of the hillocks. Given their bios, this would then be His Sr. The reference 9 is to the textbook Human Embryology, for which the restrictive snippet view fails to reveal more, but the 1868 publication is almost certainly Untersuchungen über die erste Anlage des Wirbelthierleibes.  --Lambiam 17:23, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

thanks so much Lambiam and Amble! -- any chance you could add a footnote or ref to the Tubercle article so future folks won't be as stymied as I was? 140.147.160.225 (talk) 12:04, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I found this further confirmation:

The most important theory arose in 1855 when Wilhelm His named six cartilaginous hillocks as the original auricular structures.

Source: Jack Davis (1997). Otoplasty. Springer, p. 24. ISBN 978-1-4612-7484-1.

You should be able to add a footnote (with ref) to the Tubercle article yourself.  --Lambiam 14:36, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Now done, also added to the His Sr article. Alansplodge (talk) 13:24, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

July 10

Kuiper Belt ice cube

If aliens took a spherical Kuiper belt object with the composition of Saturn's highest-water-content ring and the perihelion of Pluto, and reshaped it into a cube, how massive would it have to be for humans to detect the shape change before gravity reverted it? NeonMerlin 05:49, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Sounds like one for Randall Munroe. 41.23.55.195 (talk) 06:04, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

There are two sensible ways how the shape could be detected: a light curve or an occultation. A light curve uses the fact that for a non-spherical shape (or a spherical shape with non-uniform albedo) the brightness varies as the object spins on its axis. Professional telescopes have other things to do than collecting light curves of KBOs, but if this thing is at least around 500 km in size, it gets into range of bigger amateur telescopes. Some of those occasionally take light curves of some KBOs. But you can't really prove a cubical shape this way, as the light curve can also be explained with a funny albedo variation.

An occultation happens when this object passes in front of a background star. Multiple observers on the ground on Earth can detect the exact times when the star disappears behind the KBO and reappears later. With enough observations, one can see the silhouette of the KBO and confirm it's cubical. Around 10 observers in the occultation path, the width of which equals the diameter of the KBO, should be enough. The KBO doesn't have to be bigger than 50 km or so. Those observers are typically amateur astronomers, whose telescopes don't need to be big enough to see the KBO; seeing the background star with sufficiently short integration time (sub-second) is enough. The difficulty is knowing the orbit of the KBO accurately enough to predict the occultation and finding enough telescopes in the occultation path. PiusImpavidus (talk) 08:51, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Summation of alcoholic percentages

If I drank a 0,5 l bottle of 5,3% beer and another 0,5 l of a 4,9% beer, would it be correct to say that I drank 1 litre of 10,2% beer from physiological and chemical perspective? 212.180.235.46 (talk) 07:48, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

No, not from any perspective, physiological, chemical, or mathematical. You don't add the percentages, you take the mean. (5.3 + 4.9) / 2 = 5.1% by volume. AndyTheGrump (talk) 08:00, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

But, you can't exactly take the mean of the percentage-by-volume, because the mixture of ethanol and water causes a nonlinear volumetric change... For example, our article about alcohol by volume states: "The phenomenon of volume changes due to mixing dissimilar solutions..." is its partial molar property. The volume change is small, but non-zero... and it makes the ABV of the mixed drink non-equal to the arithmetic mean of its constituent ingredients. Our universe is amazingly complicated! Nimur (talk) 16:56, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

However, if the bottles are marked with their alcohol content in Alcohol units, you can add those. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.226.178 (talk) 14:47, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

The formulas given at Standard drink § Calculation of pure alcohol mass in a serving ignore the nonlinearity, though. They are equivalent to taking the average ABV percentage (weighted by volume) and using that for the sum of the volumes.  --Lambiam 20:31, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

But is the inaccuracy significant in the context of people drinking (say) beer in pints and halves and estimating their likely degree of insobriety? Personal physiological factors are likely (in my experience as a trained beer drinker (really!)) to outweigh the physical chemistry aspects. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.82.201 (talk) 06:56, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

I will ignore the mass/volume difference of alcohol and water. So assume that a liter is a kilogram, and alcohol by volume equals alcohol by mass.

0.5 liters of 5.3% alcohol contains 0.0265 liters of alcohol. 0.5 x 0.053 = 0.0265.

0.5 liters of 4.9% alcohol contains 0.0245 liters of alcohol. 0.5 x 0.049 = 0.0245.

So 0.0265 + 0.0245 = 0.051 liters of alcohol. You had three and a half tablespoons of alcohol.

If you drink one liter of 10.2% alcohol, you consume 0.1 liters of alcohol. Tenth of a liter is a deciliter, right? Which is twice the amount of your two pints above.

In practice, effects of alcohol intake will depend on things like how quickly you gulp the beer vs. hard spirits, how often you will need to drain the weasel, and such.

(Which is AndyTheGrump correctly said above; just showing the math.) 85.76.166.151 (talk) 16:34, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

July 11

Why is the universe not fractal?

The laws of gravity are presumably the same throughout the universe: the force is proportional to the product of the masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distances. So why do we observe very different structures at different scales? Solar systems involve a few discrete objects orbiting a sun, galaxies have various shapes but often spirals, and then over larger distances the distribution of galaxies is like a 3-D network of filaments. I believe that simulation models can produce all these different structures, but I am hoping for some intuitive explanation of why the different outcomes. One possibility might be that things happen relatively faster over small distances, and that the universe would also develop into something like a giant solar system given more time. Another possibility is that some processes happening only at the local scale (e.g. nuclear fusion in stars) interfere with what would happen if gravity alone were operating. Or is it something else entirely? Thanks. JMCHutchinson (talk) 12:01, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

The small-scale stuctures, such as the discrete objects in solar systems and the spiral structure of galaxies (even the disk itself) arise due to non-gravitational processes. When a cloud of ordinary (baryonic) gas collapses its density and temperature increase and it gives off an increasing amount of electromagnetic radiation, this leads to a loss of energy (radiative cooling) that speeds up the collapse and leads to the formation of small-scale structures. Dark matter, which is only subject to gravity, does not do that and there is no comparable small-scale structure in the dark-matter distribution. There are purely gravitational cooling mechanisms such as violent relaxation but they are much less effective than radiative cooling and operate on larger time scales. The time since the Big Band has been sufficient for galaxies and clusters of galaxies to form (less massive objects form first, more massive objects later), but not yet for objects on larger mass scales (superclusters exist but they are not bound objects yet). This is the reason why matter on the largest scales is organised in filaments but not in bound, more or less spherical objects. Finally, the presence of dark energy and the consequent accelerating expansion of the Universe set an upper limit to the mass of bound objects that will ever form — I don't know what that limit is but I guess it is in the supercluster range. --Wrongfilter (talk) 12:27, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

This is a very clear answer and exactly what I wanted. Thanks! JMCHutchinson (talk) 17:20, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Is nociplastic pain same as neuroplastic pain?

Hi. I've noticed that the term "neuroplastic pain" has 700 thousand hits on Bing search, but there is no article or redirect for it on Wikipedia. However, it seems similar to nociplastic pain, but I'm not completely sure. Is here anyone with medical background who could confirm/decline this? --Pek (talk) 16:35, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

It seems to be an incipient medical term, with 107 Google Scholar results. Just glancing down the squibs Google provides shows that it is listed separately, for instance, "Nociplastic pain is hypothesized to differ from nociceptive and neuroplastic pain...". Neuroplastic pain appears to be a sequela of neuropathic pain. The results from the Google Scholar and regular searches show a lot of scammy stuff, and I worry that creating a redirect (to neuropathic pain) may be a bad idea. Conversely, without good sourcing, an article may be impossible to create at this time. I would take this to WT:WikiProject Medicine. Abductive (reasoning) 21:36, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Does the velocity of an electromagnetic wavefront depend on the medium?

Our article Velocity factor states: The velocity factor...is the ratio, of the speed at which a wavefront (of an electromagnetic signal)...passes through the medium, to the speed of light in vacuum. So it seems that the velocity of an electromagnetic wavefront does depend on the medium.

However, our article Front velocity states: The earliest appearance of the front of an electromagnetic disturbance (the precursor) travels at the front velocity, which is c, no matter what the medium. Similarly, our article Wavefront states: Wavefronts travel with the speed of light in all directions in an isotropic medium. So it seems that the velocity of an electromagnetic wavefront does not depend on the medium.

I wonder whether this is a contradiction between our articles (if so then how should they be corrected?), or - probably - I miss something here (if so then what do I miss?)... HOTmag (talk) 21:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

I have corrected the sentence in wavefront — the article talks about waves in general, not specifically about electromagnetic waves (in which case it should have been the speed of light in the medium). The "front" discussed in front velocity is not the same thing as a wavefront (= a surface of constant phase) but, as in your quote, the earliest appearance of an electromagnetic disturbance (again one could talk about non-em disturbances but we won't). For instance, some switches on a lightbulb a distance $s$ from me. The question is "At what time can I know the lightbulb is on?" and the answer is $s/c_{\mathrm {vac} }$. The reasoning is that because this is a discontinuous signal (the mathematical formulation involves the Heaviside function) the spectrum of the signal includes all frequencies, in particular very high ones. In most (any?) media the refractive index approaches 1 for very high frequencies, i.e. the propagation speed approaches the vacuum speed of light for high frequencies. Therefore, the high-frequency part of the signal arrives first, and the bulk of the signal later. Due to this dispersion, the temporal/spatial shape of the wave signal changes as it propagates (think of what sound does on a frozen lake). --Wrongfilter (talk) 05:52, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for correcting our article Wave front.

Regarding our article Front velocity: As opposed to other readers (including me), you've understood that it refers to a beam of light containing the whole spectrum. However, if the beam of light contains, not the whole spectrum, but e.g. two types of waves only, e.g. red and blue, then the front velocity of this beam of light does depend on the medium, right?

Here is the full quote, from our article Front velocity: the wave discontinuity, called the front, propagates at a speed less than or equal to the speed of light c in any medium. In fact, the earliest appearance of the front of an electromagnetic disturbance (the precursor) travels at the front velocity, which is c, no matter what the medium.

Is the claim in this quote correct, as far as my red-blue example mentioned above is concerned? In my example, "the earliest appearance of the front" of this electromagnetic disturbance is the appearance of the blue wave, right? If it is, then shouldn't the paragraph be corrected, for all readers to understand that it only refers to a beam of light containing the whole spectrum? HOTmag (talk) 08:55, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

The spectrum is the Fourier transform of the disturbance. A discontinuous disturbance has signal at all frequencies, not just "red" and "blue". These things are not independent. --Wrongfilter (talk) 09:16, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Got it, thank you.

So, If I want the value of the speed of light to be independent of medium, I must refer to the front velocity of a beam of light containing the highest frequencies possible, right?

If your answer is positive, then how can the formula $p=\gamma mv$ be justified, when applied to a red light moving in water? In this case, $v<c,$ so $\gamma$ is a finite number, while $m=0,$ so according to this formula, we get $p=0,$ which is false...

I'm pretty confused now. Unless no mass is allowed to be attributed to the light, not even a zero-mass, so my last question will vanish. Am I right? HOTmag (talk) 10:14, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm not letting myself get drawn into the mass debate again. Light is complicated, light in matter is even more complicated. If you want the momentum of a photon, use $\hbar k$. --Wrongfilter (talk) 10:25, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. What about my only question still left, in my second sentence? "If I want the value of the speed of light to be independent of medium, I must refer to the front velocity of a beam of light containing the highest frequencies possible, right?" HOTmag (talk) 10:53, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't see the point of that sentence. Why would you "want the value of the speed of light to be independent of medium"? The front velocity looks like an interesting theoretical curiosity with little actual physical relevance. --Wrongfilter (talk) 11:13, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

I've only wanted to know if, the only way to define the well known speed of light - usually denoted by c - must rely on the vacuum, or the speed of light can also be defined without the concept of vacuum? Assuming we don't want to define it numerically (299,792,458 m/s), nor by ratios between other physical constants.

So according to your previous clarifications, I thought that perhaps the speed of light could be defined as the front velocity of a beam of light containing the highest frequencies possible... HOTmag (talk) 12:39, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

You are perhaps falling into the trap of thinking that the speed of light in a vacuum, c, is determined by a property of light (in the sense of e-m radiation). It is not: it is (as a limit) a fundamental property of Spacetime, to which light and everything else (though not spacetime itself) has to conform, including other massless 'particles' which must perforce travel at it in a vacuum. It just so happens that it is easiest to observe (and measure) using light, and was thus discovered and named. Or so I understand the matter. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.82.201 (talk) 07:37, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

July 12

Uncertainty principle & H atom

According to the uncertainty principle the electron has a momentum :
$\Delta p_{e}={\tfrac {h}{4\pi \Delta x_{e}}}{\text{ , }}$
$\Delta x_{e}=10^{-10}{\text{m (can be found from liquid hydrogen density)}}$ .

To conserve the atom momentum zero , the proton must have a momentum  :
$\Delta p_{p}=-\Delta p_{e}$.
So $\Delta x_{p}=\Delta x_{e}$ and the proton must also smear to atom's full size.

But Rutherford scattering experiment shows that a size of a nucleus is $10^{5}$ smaller. Why does the uncertainty principle fail? — Preceding unsigned comment added by U240700 (talk • contribs) 08:54, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

You seem to be confusing the (expectation) values of the momenta and their uncertainties. Conservation of momentum demands $\langle p_{p}\rangle =-\langle p_{e}\rangle$ and says nothing about the uncertainties. --Wrongfilter (talk) 09:24, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Uncertainty $\Delta p_{e}$ means that $p_{e}$ can take any value within $\Delta p_{e}$. So taking the intervals like $p_{e}=0{\text{ ... }}\Delta p_{e}$ or $p_{e}=0.5\Delta p_{e}{\text{ ... }}1.5\Delta p_{e}$ is suitable for the order of magnitude. U240700 (talk) 12:19, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

The total momentum in quantum mechanics is conserved meaning that

${\hat {\mathbf {p} }}_{e}+{\hat {\mathbf {p} }}_{p}=0$,

or

$<({\hat {\mathbf {p} }}_{e}+{\hat {\mathbf {p} }}_{p})^{2}>=(\Delta \mathbf {p} _{e})^{2}+(\Delta \mathbf {p} _{p})^{2}+2<\Delta {\hat {\mathbf {p} }}_{p}\Delta {\hat {\mathbf {p} }}_{e}>=0$.

This equality holds because electron and proton momentums are anticorrelated. Ruslik_Zero 21:00, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Last equation confirms only that $\Delta p_{p}=-\Delta p_{e}$. How does it prove or disprove $\Delta x_{p}=\Delta x_{e}$? U240700 (talk) 00:54, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Your value $\Delta x_{e}$ comes from a different experiment, not Rutherford's, and is therefore not relevant here. It applies, for instance, to a measurement of the average charge density in an atom. This would be a low-energy experiment, taking care not to disturb the electronic structure of the atom. The uncertainty principle does not stop you from setting up an experiment to measure the instantaneous position of an electron more precisely, but the concomitant momentum uncertainty would likely ionise the atom. Rutherford's alpha particles had energies in the MeV range, if I'm not mistaken, much higher than the binding energies of electrons in atoms. They could in principle — I don't know how, and Rutherford's experiment is certainly not set up to do so — be used to locate electrons to much smaller $\Delta x_{e}$ than the value you give. --Wrongfilter (talk) 03:53, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

I have no questions for $\Delta x_{e}$, I have a question for $\Delta x_{p}$. The proton is located in center of atom in very small boundaries ($10^{-15}{\text{ m}}$) . It violates the uncertainty principle. The proton must be smeared over $10^{-10}{\text{ m}}$ and (like the electron) be detected (materialized) everywhere , not just in center. U240700 (talk) 06:57, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Okay, like you I got too hung up on the location of protons and electrons. The Rutherford experiment does not actually measure the location of nuclei, it measures their size. The experiment does not tell you where the nuclei are (not even in relation to their electron shell). Putting them at the centre of atoms is subsequent model building. --Wrongfilter (talk) 09:14, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

July 13

On the discovery of tantalum

What procedure did Anders Gustaf Ekeberg use to isolate metallic tantalum? Double sharp (talk) 09:11, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

If you can read Swedish, I think this is the original publication in which Ekeberg announced his discovery of tantalum. If you can't, maybe someone who knows Swedish and has some familiarity with the terminology of analytical chemistry will be kind enough to summarize the procedure, which I think is described in the later half of the article; on p.78 I see Detta nya metallämnet ("this new metallic substance").  --Lambiam 11:26, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the Scandinavian languages are something I never looked deeply into. Though it's starting to seem clear that I'm going to need to look into Swedish to study this period of chemical history. :) Double sharp (talk) 12:19, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

July 2

Array of random values

Given a 2-dimensional array of random values (think of a noisy image) how do you construct an autocorrelation filter that will converge on a given point in the array starting anywhere in the array (or almost anywhere) Philvoids (talk) 15:41, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Does this answer your question?

1. Compute the two-dimensional discrete Fourier transform of the image (for which you can use the two-dimensional version of the fast Fourier transform algorithm).
2. Filter out the high spatial frequencies.
3. Compute the inverse transform.

 --Lambiam 17:54, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

A numerical test
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Below is an 8x8 array of numbers. Start from any one of 64 locations ranging from (x0,y0) = (0,0) bottom left to (7,7) top right. Can you show a formula whose input (x0,y0) always yields as output (X,Y) = (3,3) ? Y ^ | | 7 247 51 132 34 223 6 121 243 6 81 196 176 224 77 159 211 171 5 119 245 56 244 141 247 33 115 4 254 49 175 170 95 19 208 108 3 118 204 145 117 25 242 162 229 2 35 200 250 115 45 62 229 135 1 212 219 232 186 196 59 68 74 0 192 207 14 129 102 13 28 65 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 -->X

Philvoids (talk) 09:08, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I have a hard time understanding the question. What does it mean for a formula (or an algorithm) to "start from a location"? The constant function $(x_{0},y_{0})\mapsto (3,3)$ trivially meets the requirement, but this cannot be what you are looking for. If the output should be the same, regardless of $(x_{0},y_{0}),$ why is this location supplied as input? I assume that the matrix of values is also part of the input. What is it about these values that makes $(3,3)$ the desired output?  --Lambiam 12:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I have a hard time understanding it as well. I don't know what an "autocorrelation filter" is either, but maybe that's just me. I know what autocorrelation is, and I know what a filter is, but the two words together don't seem to have any special meaning and a Google search wasn't very enlightening. A filter would, according to my understanding of the meaning in this context, produce an array from a another array. The generic application of a filter would produce a sequence from another sequence. For example a noise filter would take, for example, an audio file, and remove the noise producing another file with just the speech or music or whatever. You can use the same idea with two dimensional arrays to clean up images, or three dimensional arrays to clean up video. (This is basically what Lambiam's original answer would do.) Such arrays are typically highly autocorrolated and the outputs of a noise filter would be more so, but I don't see how that translates to "autocorrelation filter". In any case, the question seems to want not an array as output, but a location within the array. In general you have to be more specific about what the function is supposed to do, not just give an example. If I ask for a function with f(2)=4, it could be f(x)=x² or x+2 or just 4; there's not enough information in the question to get a meaningful answer. --RDBury (talk) 16:06, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

"Given a 2-dimensional array" - it could be any array and in the test example I give an 8x8 array of integers. That is a given data.(It could be a different array, maybe larger.) "Start anywhere in the array" - there are 64 locations in the example array and you can start at (0,0) or (0,1) or (0,2) or...all the way up to (7,7). Whatever formula or procedure or algorithm you provide MUST ALWAYS yield as output the arbitrary (means I chose it) location x=3, y=3 i.e. (3,3) that happens to hold the value 117 in the example. I don't know whether you can manage it, and you may have difficulty with the corner or edge locations. But if you can't solve the question, maybe you can reword it for everyone better than I have managed. Philvoids (talk) 20:27, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Define function $f:\mathbb {Z} ^{2}\to \mathbb {Z} ^{2}$ by

$f(i,j)=(3,3).$

If that does not solve your problem, can you explain how this falls short?  --Lambiam 21:26, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

@Lambiam Your first response described how you would use an FFT and its inverse to remove high frequency "noise" from the array data. Your latest response abandons the reader to define a map conversion. Philvoids (talk) 14:55, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I do not understand what problem you are trying to solve. Given how you restated it, my latest response should – using my best effort in interpreting the restatement – be a solution (in fact, the only solution). Since I also understand that it can't be this simple, your pointing out in some detail in which respects it does not satisfy the requirements for being a solution might, perhaps, help me get some grip on what problem you are trying to solve. At the moment, I am totally clueless.  --Lambiam 17:31, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I do not understand these problem statements either. Is the intended output an input? If it's not an input then how is an independent oracle going about computing the output? Otherwise, "f(x,y) times zero plus i" and "f(x,y) minus f(x,y) plus j" are just a few of many arithmetic formula that take the values at any f(x,y) as inputs and are negated, and thus always return indexes i and j as input for some value at f(i,j). Modocc (talk) 21:02, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps it would help to give some context to the problem instead of trying to state it in the abstract. What does the array represent? What does a position on the array represent? If we had the real world situation you're trying to deal with then maybe the problem you're trying to solve would be self-evident. --RDBury (talk) 21:32, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

The context for my question is my interest in efficient software to perform Image stitching, Document mosaicing or extraction of unlimited large-area maps from multiple map patches screen dumped from sites such as Google Maps. In each case we begin with a pair of images (which are 2D arrays of pixel values) that are known to overlap partly, but the exact offset between them has to be found before we can join them seamlessly. Stitching map patches together seems relatively easy because with correct offset there will be 100% correlation between the images in their overlap area; this is an autocorrelation because the pixels come from one master map. Consider my 8x8 array example as part of a map overlap area; we make a rough guess of the x-y offset of the overlapping map. Allow that the guess is likely inaccurate, which becomes apparent if we look for the pixel value at position (x,y)=(3,3) on the second map, and are disapointed to find it is not 117. We know all the array values and its size suggests there is one correct offset and 63 wrong offsets.

Pseudocode for a clumsy stitching
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
define maparray(8,8) x=0 y=0 v=maparray(0,0) while v != maparray(3,3) {x++ if x==8 then x=0, y++ if y==8 then print "No match found." v=maparray(x,y) } print "Update offset by x:",-x," y:",-y Deficiencies of this code are - Up to 63 comparisons can be be needed before the correct offset is found - Noise causing false positive(s) or failure is not considered in my question but it arises when stitching photographs. The clumsy routine lacks noise tolerance because a 1 or 2 unit deviation at (3,3) disables the search, or causes a false positive at (3,2), (0,3), (0,5) or (7,5). That is regarding the array byte values that could represent 256 grey levels; I think that the error probabilities in hardware are independent of bit weightings and I find that there are 13 locations whose values have 2 or less [[Hamming distance]] from the value in (3,3) that was used for searching.

Ideas for an improved algorithm

- A larger array may be needed for a larger overlap area

- Sequential search costs time and computation effort but is only necessary where there is no gradient to follow towards the correct offset.

- False positives that arise from noise when searching for one pixel value may be reduced by searching for blocks of pixel values, such as the combination of (3,3), (4,3), (3,4) and (4,4). Philvoids (talk) 20:05, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

The commonly used methods for photo stitching and for document mosaicing involve feature detection, which can be seen as a (possible very rudimentary) way of interpreting the images. You appear to be seeking an approach that is, so to speak, interpretation-free.

In your pseudocode there is only one map, but a stitching algorithm needs two maps as input. Very abstractly, the general problem involves

• a set of domains,
• a group of transformations on domains, and
• a codomain.

A "map" is then a function from a domain to a codomain.

Moreover, there is

• a goodness of fit measure that expresses the similarity between two maps.

Given a map $m:D\to C$ and a domain transformation $\tau ,$ we can define

$\tau [\![m]\!]=m\circ \tau .$

The problem is now, given two maps $m_{1}$ and $m_{2},$ to determine a transformation $\tau$ that maximizes the goodness of fit between $m_{1}$ and $\tau [\![m_{2}]\!].$ Ideally, the latter is the same as the goodness of fit between $\tau ^{{-}1}[\![m_{!}]\!]$ and $m_{2},$ so that the problem is symmetric.

In your case the domains are rectangular subsets of $\mathbb {Z} ^{2}$ and the codomain is the set of integers or real numbers, but it could also be the set of values of some colour model. The domain transformations are translations of the elements of a domain. The measure for goodness of fit could be the correlation (not "autocorrelation") between $m_{1}$ and $\tau [\![m_{2}]\!].$ restricted to the intersection of their domains. Depending on the application, other measures may give better results.

I am not aware of efficient algorithms for your version of the general problem, but here is an approach that I expect to work well for certain types of images – but not so well on some other types.

The basic idea is to find the best shift for scaled-down versions of the images. The scaled-back-up shift should be close to the optimal one; simple hill climbing should quickly lead to an optimum. This can be applied recursively, but scaling down too much may turn the images into featureless blurs for which the goodness of fit is a meaningless measure.  --Lambiam 13:49, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

The only thing I'd add is that it seems to me that creating such an algorithm from scratch is reinventing the wheel. Hugin is open source, stable (or so they claim), and available for download. I can understand wanting to "roll your own" if you really want to understand the algorithms, but there is a lot of specialized knowledge involved and you should at least have a general idea what actually goes into the programs. There is more than you might think, such as adjusting for differences in lighting and perspective. "I hear, I forget. I see, I remember. I do, I understand," as the proverb goes, But we can't always the spare the man-years needed to skip the "I hear" and "I see" stages. --RDBury (talk) 03:02, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

July 7

Using sagemath or an other language, how to exactly find out what the order of the base point of an elliptic curve in Edwards Form is ?

This kind of code will do it for the usual Weirestrass form :

a = 1
b = 3141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307816406665
p = 2^251 + 17*2^192 +1

E = EllipticCurve(GF(p), [0,0,0,a,b])
print(E)
print(E.abelian_group())

card = E.cardinality()
print("cardinality =",card)
factor(card)

G = E(874739451078007766457464989774322083649278607533249481151382481072868806602,152666792071518830868575557812948353041420400780739481342941381225525861407)
print("Generator order q=", G.order())

But how to do it for a curve in the twisted Edwards form ? Because I suppose converting the curve and the point to the Weirestrass form would change the resulting order being computed right ? 2A01:E0A:401:A7C0:DD6F:EA1B:CCA4:2633 (talk) 21:12, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm not an expert, but I'd think that the group is isomorphic to the Weierstrass group by which it is induced.  --Lambiam 11:07, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

July 8

If 0 and 1 are counted as perfect powers, can every sufficiently large number be written as the sum of 3 perfect powers?

If 0 and 1 are counted as perfect powers, can every sufficiently large number be written as the sum of 3 perfect powers? 1.165.223.46 (talk) 12:09, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Are you including perfect powers of negative numbers?

example: the first problematic number is 7, which cannot be made from 3 powers of positive numbers, but using negative numbers, 7 = 2^3 + (-1)^3 + 0^3. Dhrm77 (talk) 14:40, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Every sufficiently large number, of course I know that 7 and 15 cannot be written as such. 220.132.216.52 (talk) 17:09, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

[edited: This comment addresses a different problem]: A necessary condition for an integer $n$ to equal such a sum a sum of three cubes is that $n$ does not equal 4 or 5 modulo 9, because the cubes modulo 9 are 0, 1, and −1, and no three of these numbers can sum to 4 or 5 modulo 9. For the remaining set of integers it is an open problem; see Sums of three cubes.  --Lambiam 16:10, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

No, I only consider nonnegative numbers. 220.132.216.52 (talk) 17:08, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

It would seem that no one knows, see OEIS:A113505. GalacticShoe (talk) 17:32, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm confused. 32 is congruent to 5 mod 9, but it's the sum of 1 perfect power. All numbers not congruent to 7 mod 8 are a sum of three squares so you only have to consider 7, 15, 23, 31, ... The OEIS entry does not cite a source, other than just letting the program run to 10⁸ (which seems feasible). But in general if OEIS doesn't know then it's probably unknown. --RDBury (talk) 01:28, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

There's also the slightly-more restrictive OEIS:A135393 that doesn't use 0 or 1 as perfect powers, and even then the list seems to probably be finite. This makes me wonder what would happen if you removed the nonnegativity constraint from the base of the power. Certainly many terms would disappear (like $335=3^{5}+10^{2}+(-2)^{3}$), and it seems likely that every number not congruent to $4$ or $5\!\!\!{\pmod {9}}$ would be erased as per the sums of three cubes, but the remaining terms might be interesting. GalacticShoe (talk) 04:26, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

335 is in fact 7^3 + (-2)^3 2402:7500:943:2AC:F4A8:5238:E22:338A (talk) 06:31, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but I wanted to give an example without using -1, 0, or 1. Although there are easy examples like $167=13^{2}+(-1)^{3}+(-1)^{3}$, I'd like to know if there are more without using the more trivial perfect powers. GalacticShoe (talk) 07:38, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Are there infinitely many positive integers that are not the sum of two perfect powers? (If 0 and 1 are counted as perfect powers) 2402:7500:943:2AC:F4A8:5238:E22:338A (talk) 06:31, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

The number of perfect powers up to $N$ is (if I'm not mistaken) asymptotically equal to ${\sqrt {N}}.$ Then there are $\Omega (N^{\frac {3}{2}})$ triples of perfect powers whose sum is at most $N.$ Thus, unless there is some number-theoretic conspiracy that makes many triple sums unexpectedly often have the same value, one expects, by a naive counting argument, saturation: not only can eventually all numbers be expected to be the sum of three perfect powers, but to be so in many ways.  --Lambiam 12:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

For N congruent to 7 mod 8 you need at least one odd power. So I think the number of triples you can use for these N is more like $\Omega (N^{\frac {4}{3}})$. The exponent is still greater than 1 though. The asymptotic density of numbers which are the sum of three squares is 7/8 and for two squares it's 0. In these cases your tuple counting argument would estimate densities of $\Omega (N^{\frac {3}{2}})$ and $\Omega (N)$ respectively, but there are indeed "number-theoretic conspiracies" in both cases. --RDBury (talk) 03:56, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

This additional question is “are there infinitely many positive integers that are not the sum of two perfect powers?” 49.217.131.145 (talk) 12:42, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I think Lambiam's tuple counting argument with a tweak or two settles this. If N is congruent to 3 mod four then there must be an odd power. The number of perfect powers less than N is asymptotically ${\sqrt {N}}$ and the number of odd powers is asymptotically ${\sqrt[{3}]{N}}.$ The number of combinations is then $\Omega (N^{\frac {5}{6}})$ which is asymptotically less than N. I didn't see an OEIS entry for this, but that may be because I was trying to work out the first few terms in my head. Sequence A075434 comes close, but they're not counting 0 as a perfect power so it includes 4, 27, ... . --RDBury (talk) 17:26, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I haven't proved this, but it seems that no number of the form $2^{n}-1,n\geq 18,$ can be written as the sum of two perfect powers. The largest base-2 repunit that is such a sum may be $2^{17}-1=3^{3}+362^{2}.$  --Lambiam 17:50, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

It seems to be true if Fermat–Catalan conjecture is true, since numbers == 3 mod 4 (as well as numbers divisible by 3 but not 9, numbers divisible by 7 but not 49, numbers divisible by 11 but not 121, etc.) are not sum of two squares. 220.132.216.52 (talk) 06:03, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

If $0$ is not considered a perfect power, truth of the Fermat–Catalan conjecture implies a positive answer to the additional question: only a finite number of prime powers of the form $p^{p}$ are the sum of two non-zero perfect powers. I don't see how to use it here. The relevance of non-expressibility as sums of squares escapes me.  --Lambiam 05:56, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

If p == 3 mod 4 and q is odd prime, then p^q is not the sum of two squares, and truth of the Fermat–Catalan conjecture implies that only a finite number of numbers of the form p^q are the sum of two perfect powers such that at least one of them is cube or higher power. 220.132.216.52 (talk) 06:44, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

This assumes not counting $0$ as a perfect power. The premise of the question is that $0$ and $1$ are both counted as perfect powers.  --Lambiam 10:13, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

July 10

Definition of proof

How does Gödel defined a proof in his version of Intermediate logic? 2A02:8071:60A0:92E0:78B6:4D3A:774B:E50C (talk) 18:34, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Can you give us a pointer to a source defining "Gödel's version" of intermediate logic? Also, is there evidence that Gödel defined the notion of proof for this logic?  --Lambiam 18:46, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

July 13

Given the powers of tau ; the verifying and the proving key, how can I find the point [f] resulting from the trusted setup in Groth16 ?

For each circuits, Groth16 requires to compute a point f such as f=s×G. While revealing the scalar s used for computing f would allow to produce fake proofs, f can be exposed to the public.

But how to retrieve the point f for a given circuit as a circuit user ? In which parameter ? The circuit in question is created using the circom prover. 2A01:E0A:401:A7C0:6867:6FFB:B9F6:EFF9 (talk) 11:10, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Can you give us a reference to a source defining Groth16?  --Lambiam 12:35, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

June 30

A Cato the Elder quote?

Does anyone know the source of the following quote: "Two augurs cannot walk past each other without smiling". (Since they both know what nonsense their predictions are.) It is associated in my mind with Cato the Elder but I'm not entirely confident. I've checked Wikiquote and it's not there. Leaving aside the attribution, does anyone recall a similar saying? 178.51.74.75 (talk) 19:50, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, attributed to one Cato or another by Cicero in Book 2 of De Divinatione: "But indeed, that was quite a clever remark which Cato made many years ago: 'I wonder,' said he, 'that a soothsayer doesn't laugh when he sees another soothsayer.'" [11]. (Vetus autem illud Catonis admodum scitum est, qui mirari se aiebat quod non rideret haruspex haruspicem cum vidisset.) [12]. --Antiquary (talk) 20:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Cicero refers to Cato the Younger earlier in the same book: "I have also recently thrown in that book On Old Age, which I sent my friend Atticus; and, since it is by philosophy that a man is made virtuous and strong, my Cato¹ is especially worthy of a place among the foregoing books." So it is likely he is referring to the great-grandson. Later he mentions Cato in the list "Cato, Varro,² Coponius or I?". Varro and Coponius were contemporaries of Cicero, so this also points to Cato the Younger.  --Lambiam 09:35, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Good points, but when I look on Google Books for attributions from modern Classics scholars I only find them naming Cato the Elder, either by name or as the author of De agri cultura: [13] [14] [15]. Is that solely because in that work Cato the Elder told his steward not to consult haruspices? But others were also rather sniffy about them [16]. I'm left in doubt which Cato Cicero meant. --Antiquary (talk) 18:26, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Cato the Younger was younger than Cicero. If "De Divinatione" is from around 44 BC (when Cato the Younger was about 50) what could "many years ago" mean and which of Cato the Younger's books (did he write any?) would have been written early enough in Cato's life and have given Cato an opportunity to say something about diviners? On the other hand is it possible that the "clever remark" may have been oral (either spoken directly or reported to Cicero)? Even if Cato's saying in Cicero's words feels like written Latin, is it possible that Cicero was parphrasing, not reporting it literally? Incidentally there's something intriguing about a deeply traditionalist guy (both Catos were) being skeptical of and even sarcastic about a matter of religion. A mix of pragmatic skepticism and traditionalism seems to fit Cato the Elder better, doesn't it? Traditionalism in Cato the Younger's time seems to have become too demonstrative and ideological for him to allow himself to mock a matter of religion, doesn't it? 178.51.74.75 (talk) 23:09, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

July 1

French president

[17] Macron is the guy with the white shirt, right? Who is the guy in the baseball cap shaking hands with randoms? Another politican? Do I have them confused? And is the PM of France kind of an irrelevant figure? In other countries with PM's I thought it was the other way around, the PM runs things and the president is a figurehead. Thanks. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:9BB0 (talk) 12:28, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Macron is the person in the leather jacket / the baseball cap, joining Brigitte Macron for part of the take. The guy in the white shirt, shown at the start of the video may be security. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 14:36, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

France is a semi-presidential republic, or dual executive republic in which a president exists alongside a prime minister (from Semi-presidential_republic). There are two competitive readings of the French Constitution, see Constitution_of_France. To me, except may be during "cohabitation periods", the usual interpretation is in favor of a "powerful president". — AldoSyrt (talk) 14:39, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Still, to add to what AlsoSyrt said, the Prime Minister is far from insignificant. Under the previous two Republics, from 1871 to 1958, however, it was the President who was largely a ceremonial figure. Xuxl (talk) 14:46, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

See also Prime Minister of France which says: "The extent to which... decisions lie with the prime minister or president often depends upon whether they are of the same political party. If so, the president may serve as both the head of state and de facto head of government, while the prime minister serves as his deputy". Alansplodge (talk) 16:33, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks all. The guy in the white shirt (starting at 0:11 in the video) resembles photos of Macron that I've seen, so I got confused. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:9BB0 (talk) 20:36, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Supreme Court reversing itself more than once

With the current Sup Ct reversing well known earlier decisions, I'm wondering if there are any that it reversed more than once. Like Lawrence v. Texas reversed some earlier decisions, but Justice Thomas proposed that the current court reverse Lawrence v. Texas, so the two reversals would cancel each other out. I'm wondering whether anything like that has actually happened. We have List of overruled United States Supreme Court decisions so maybe I try do a manual self-join, but I figure I'd miss some things, and that such incidents would be known to people into such things. I asked same question in the talk page for that list article before thinking of asking here. That's probably a better place to answer, but if necessary I can relay from here. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:9BB0 (talk) 20:51, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Guy de Maupassant

My question is fairly simple: did 19th-century French author Guy de Maupassant (1850–1893) ever write about or fictionalize a character in his work based upon Suzanne Valadon? I ask, because W. Somerset Maugham biographer Anthony Curtis (1926-2014), in his 1992 introduction to The Razor's Edge (1944), describes Maugham's character of "Suzanne Rouvier" as "straight out of Maupassant". (Curtis 1992). Prior to this, in the same introduction, Curtis describes her character using an almost identical description of the real-life Valadon, however, nowhere does he mention her name. Additionally, we know that Maupassant and Valadon were contemporaries and frequented the Chat Noir at the same time (Snow 1958). One year before Curtis wrote this new introduction, the World Wide Web went public in 1991. Mosaic popularized its usage greatly in 1993, and by 1995, Netscape unleashed the flood gates. Now, here's where things get murky: from what I can surmise, post-1995, an early website creator named "The Wanderling" read Curtis' 1992 introduction, and started promoting the idea on the web that "Suzanne Rouvier was based on Suzanne Valadon". Fast forward to 2024, and all iterations of this claim appear to trace back to "The Wanderling" and his early website. Which brings me back to my original question. What exactly did Curtis mean by Rouvier being "straight out of Maupassant"? Finally, is there any good evidence besides the website created by "The Wanderling", that Rouvier is based on Suzanne Valadon? Thank you. Viriditas (talk) 21:25, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Note, if anyone wants more intricate details and extended quotations from the above cited works, I have included them at Talk:Suzanne_Valadon#Re:_W._Somerset_Maugham. Viriditas (talk) 21:28, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

"Straight out of Maupassant" may not mean that Maupassant actually put the character in his works. It may also mean that she lives in a universe similar to that described by Maupassant (and Maupassant does describe 1880s French bourgeois society in great detail, including illicit love affairs and the demi-monde of Paris society to which Valadon belonged). It's almost certain that Maupassant would have been familiar with Valadon, as she frequented the same circles as he did, although she did not gain recognition for her art (as opposed to her modeling work) until after he was confined to an insane asylum in 1892. Given that Maupassant wrote over 300 short stories in addition to six novels, it's hard to say if Curtis is referring to a specific character. Xuxl (talk) 13:51, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, it means typical of the author's characters or plotlines; see also "straight from Kafka", "straight out of Dickens", "straight out of Steinbeck" and "straight out of Orwell". Alansplodge (talk) 15:13, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I concur, but I thought I would give it a shot.

Resolved

Viriditas (talk) 18:12, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Novelists commonly use aspects of people they know (including themselves) for modeling their fictional characters. It is very possible that Maupassant modeled some aspect of some of his characters with Valadon in mind. Independent of what Maupassant may have done, it is also possible, and definitely not per se unlikely, that Maugham used Valadon as a model for his Suzanne Rouvier.  --Lambiam 19:21, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Of course, but we are trying to source this on the Valadon page, and all I've been able to find are circular references to "The Wanderling" web site, which was published just a few years after Curtis' introduction, hence the connection. I'm curious if anyone tried to connect Valadon with Maugham's character prior to 1992. Viriditas (talk) 20:35, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

July 2

"Organization of Emerging African States"?

I'd like some decent independent WP:RS about what this org is.[18][19][20]. They have a website, but my browser don't think I should go there. Mentioned at List of active separatist movements in Africa. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:51, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

From a quick look it seems to be an initiative created by Ebenezer Akwanga, a separatist from Cameroon who has lived in exile in Nigeria, hence probably the mention in Nigerian sources you link. Whether it is much of a movement, or just an internet platform connecting activists, I am less able to tell. Newsweek reports it is operating from the US. CMD (talk) 10:28, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Found something:[21] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:45, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

What letter do use use for B on an upside down calculator??

The article Calculator spelling says 8. But this page http://www.hakank.org/upside_down_number_words says 9. Who is right?? Georgia guy (talk) 21:49, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Uppercase “B” is 8

Lowercase “b” is 9

Blueboar (talk) 22:04, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Blueboar, that's not what the Wikipedia article says. It says 9 is G. Georgia guy (talk) 23:07, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

You do understand that you are asking for definitive answers about what is basically modern folklore? You might as well ask whether the song is actually hokey-cokey or hokey-pokey. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 00:59, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

It may be that there is a “calculator generation” gap in play, between the blockier “font” of old calculators, and more modern ones that have a more rounded “font”. But ask anyone who was a child in the 1960s what 5319009 spelled when you turned your calculator upside down, and they knew the answer was “bOObIES”… it was the height of 6 year old humor! Blueboar (talk) 01:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

In the 1980s it was 5318008. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 01:28, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Looked at the diagram in our article… and realized that the 9 depicted there has a horizontal bar at the bottom… the calculator I had in the 60s did not. This may account for the difference in tradition. Blueboar (talk) 01:37, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Upside down, "9" turns into a "6', which in calculator spelling is a lowercase "b".  --Lambiam 08:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

A half rotation of a calculator 9 produces Б, at least on Casio and Texas Instruments models. At least in my memory, which is incredibly faulty. Folly Mox (talk) 11:10, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

July 4

History of pre-electricity lighting in India

I couldn't find any info on the History of pre-electricity lighting in India, Indoor Lighting, Outdoor Lighting, Street lighting, Commercial Building lighting, Royal Residence lighting, Residential lighting, the various equipment used, fuels used, historic records, illustrated historic references like engravings. 2405:201:F00B:3879:D464:2331:428A:6F4D (talk) 07:28, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Ordinary people often used Oil lamps, as was done in various parts of the world, though an Indian variation on the theme was that Ghee was often used in the lamp. See Diya (lamp), Nilavilakku, and Nachiarkoil lamp... AnonMoos (talk) 16:41, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Bombay Lights: Gas Light and the Transition to a Modern City (for access, ask at Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request or you may be able to access through the The Wikipedia Library)

Contested nightscapes: Illuminating colonial Bombay

Alansplodge (talk) 22:05, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

You may also be interested in the Journal of Gas Lighting (p. 139) which has a report of an 1855 proposal by the Oriental Gas Company to install the first gas lighting in Calcutta. It points out that "public and private" exterior oil lamps in the city cost over £65,000 annually. Alansplodge (talk) 22:18, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Did/does India have candles? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Are bears catholic? Does the pope... nah. Try "History of Wax-Candles in India (AD 1500–1900)" (ex-jstor) or our History of candle making. MinorProphet (talk) 22:59, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I just wondered, because no one had mentioned something so obvious as candles. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:35, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Death by jogging at a literary conference

In this interview, at the end of 1982, Anthony Burgess mentions having been to "a big magazine conference in Puerto Rico. I had to address the audience there, and being Americans they had to begin every morning with a jog. Two people died of heart failure on this jog who were younger than I. They tried to persuade me to go along on this jog. But in the tropics? In the tropics, even at 6.30 am? Oh no. A couple of people collapsed and apparently died, at least they disappeared. Whether they’re being artificially supported somewhere I don’t know." So what was the conference and who died, or was disappeared? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 19:08, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

The inventory of the Anthony Burgess Papers held at the Harry Ransom Center mentions, under "Index of Correspondents", "American Magazine Conference".^[22] Online sources mention an American Magazine Conference, held in October 2005 in Puerto Rico. These annual conferences were organized by the Magazine Publishers Association, founded in 1919. Perhaps an earlier installment was also held in Puerto Rico.  --Lambiam 07:17, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I just want to point out that "death by jogging" was a huge meme in the 1980s. I think it started way before that, but given the historical popularity of jogging as a cultural phenomenon, it was widespread. If you’re too young to know what I’m even talking about, then watch Forrest Gump. Viriditas (talk) 01:26, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

July 5

What label can be given to John Marshall's judicial review philosophy,

Can a label as used now, like constructionism or textualism or pragmatism or "living constitution"alism or originalism be applied to John Marshall's philosophy on the U.S. Constitution? From the article on John Marshall I copied this quotation, but I'm not sure how moden labels would apply:

"To say that the intention of the instrument must prevail; that this intention must be collected from its words; that its words are to be understood in that sense in which they are generally used by those for whom the instrument was intended; that its provisions are neither to be restricted into insignificance, nor extended to objects not comprehended in them, nor contemplated by its framers—is to repeat what has been already said more at large, and is all that can be necessary."

Rich (talk) 04:14, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

To me, this sounds like words spoken by an originalist. Marshall may at the same time have been a strict constructionist; the quotation does not speak to this question.  --Lambiam 06:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Has the goddess Saraswati ever been nicknamed Svati before?

Over a month ago, I came across a web series called Ghee Happy which portrayed characters based on Hindu deities. The theme song describes the four protagonists (who are depicted as schoolchildren) as follows:

Ganesha! He likes to eat!
Ganesha: Sweet!
Kali! She likes to scare!
Kali: [makes a roaring noise at a lion]
Krishna! He likes to play!
Krishna: All day!
Saraswati, super smart!
Saraswati: I like music, books and art. My friends call me Swati!

However, I've found out that in a Hindu context, Svati usually refers to either one of the wives of the Moon or the nakshatra associated with Arcturus, so I believe the "my friends call me Swati" part of the theme song may have just been one of the artistic liberties taken by the producers. (along with Kartikeya being Ganesha's big brother, Dvaraka being held up by balloons, and Ravana being 3 years old in Krishna's time, to name a few other examples) – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 12:58, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

"Saraswati gives better blessings in long run than Lakshmi..."--Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 02:31, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

July 6

Slave ship Lawrence

There's an article in today's Wall Street Journal regarding a controversy over the Clotilda, supposedly the last slave ship to reach the United States, in around 1859-60. A historian, Erik Calonius, claims that the slave voyage was a hoax, and the last slaver to reach the US was actually the Wanderer in 1858.

Our article on the Clotilda does not mention the controversy, which may be fair enough; Calonius himself seems to acknowledge that this is the standard narrative and it wasn't clear to me from the article how much traction the theory has gotten in the historian community.

But one point caught my eye: The article says that Booker T. Washington claimed that the last slave ship to reach Mobile, Alabama was the Lawrence, in 1862 (later than both the above dates). I can't find the Lawrence in our list of slave ships, and my Googling has not turned up much. Does anyone know anything about this Lawrence? --Trovatore (talk) 19:27, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

People exist today directly descended from both Clotilda slaves and Clotilda enslavers, so I don't really understand how anyone who's watched The Order of Myths could think it's a hoax... AnonMoos (talk) 20:26, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

The article goes into some detail (not a lot, but some) on Calonius's reasons for thinking it was a hoax. I'm not qualified to evaluate that aspect of it, at least not without a lot more work than I actually plan to put into it. --Trovatore (talk) 20:34, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

The Story of Slavery p. 17. It might be worth investigating Cornelia Lawrence 1854 New York for Lawrence, Giles & Co. She apparently hauled passengers Liverpool to New York but burned 2 Nov. 1858 in Mobile Bay under mysterious circumstance while carrying a cargo of hay? Pretty thin tho. fiveby(zero) 02:19, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Oops article is referring to Washington in ‘’The Story of the Negro’’ p. 104 Two different stories and each seems unlikely. fiveby(zero) 03:56, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, 5/0. While Washington makes an unqualified claim that slaves were landed in 1862, it's surrounded by various "It is said" and "I have been told" kind of anecdotes, so I agree this doesn't seem like much to go on. --Trovatore (talk) 05:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

It seems extremely unlikely. Mobile was under blockade in 1862, and the Confederate efforts to get cargo through it relied heavily on the British Empire both to build ships in the UK and harbour them in the Caribbean. Hard to see them risking winding up the Brits by trying to ship slaves, or using up valuable cargo space that could be used to ship military supplies. Chuntuk (talk) 08:38, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

July 8

Haruspex

The earlier discussion here about auguries from intestines brought back a vague memory of a haruspex finding an appalling sign (deformity/wormy) but the people pressing ahead with the significant project nonetheless, only to end in disaster. I've been Googling for it without luck, probably because I can't remember if it's the Romans or some other ancient people, and I can't remember if it was for a battle or something else. Does this ring a bell with anyone? It's also entirely possible I read it in fiction! --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 10:49, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

This book [23] seems to have a few pointers in that general direction (p. 112), maybe your episode is covered there? Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:57, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

We have articles on Omen (ancient Rome), Augury, and Augur, but only a relatively generic aticle on Haruspex. -- AnonMoos (talk) 16:24, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Sounds like Marcus Licinius Crassus and the Battle of Carrhae. There were said to be numerous omens against the undertaking; see Plutarch's Parallel Lives on Crassus [24]. A couple of examples:

• The seers, also, quietly let it become known that the omens for Crassus which came from their sacrifices were always bad and inauspicious. But Crassus paid no heed to them, nor to those who advised anything else except to press forward.
• And finally, when he p375 was making the customary sacrifice of purification for the army, and the seer placed the viscera in his hands, he let them fall to the ground; then, seeing that the bystanders were beyond measure distressed at the occurrence, he smiled and said: "Such is old age; but no weapon, you may be sure, shall fall from its hands."

There's also Publius Claudius Pulcher (consul 249 BC) throwing the sacred chickens into the sea, which is a memorable episode although it's not the one you're looking for. --Amble (talk) 16:39, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, Amble that's terrific and interesting, but I'm looking for an occasion when the entrails were disgusting in some way and plainly foretold disaster to everyone who saw them, rather than a procedural glitch like that. I might need to go backwards, looking at notable Roman calamities like the Varus disaster. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 07:28, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

July 9

A sudden shock, and London is changed to the Antipodes

I am reading "A Fragment of Life" by Arthur Machen. Darnell, who is (or thinks he is) a clerk in the City, "was indeed almost in the position of the man in the tale, who, by a sudden electric shock, lost the vision of the things about him in the London streets, and gazed instead upon the sea and shore of an island in the Antipodes". What is the tale that the man was in? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 00:07, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't know, but I hope it's not excessively pedantic to point out that the literal 180° antipodes of the great majority of land on earth (including London) is deep ocean, as can be seen in File:Antipodes LAEA.png etc... -- AnonMoos (talk) 01:24, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

The term the Antipodes (used as a proper noun, with a capital A) may refer rather loosely to the southern hemisphere. This corresponds to the sense of Ancient Greek ἀντίποδες, a plural, which did not have the restricted meaning of a precise location. Then there are the Antipodes Islands, often referred to as just "the Antipodes".^[25][26][27] Possibly, the gazed-upon island was one of the numerous islets of the Antipodes Islands.  --Lambiam 06:21, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes indeed, "a little rock to the south of Antipodes Island". I'm pretty sure the story Machen referred to must be H. G. Wells's "The Remarkable Case of Davidson's Eyes" (1895). --Antiquary (talk) 07:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, that looks like it must be it. DuncanHill (talk) 19:32, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Israel-Hamas War article

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Why doesn't the "Israel-Hamas War" article mention the estimated number of Palestinians who've fled Gaza to Egypt during the war? According to Reuters - it's around 100,000 people.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-embassy-seeks-temporary-status-gazans-who-entered-egypt-during-war-2024-05-02/

Also, the Wikipedia article doesn't mention the fact that Palestinian refugees are charged thousands of dollars by Egyptians to cross the border.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2024/jan/08/palestinians-flee-gaza-rafah-egypt-border-bribes-to-brokers

Thanks. 46.121.212.58 (talk) 01:41, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Feel like questions that should be asked of the editors on that article. --Golbez (talk) 02:02, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

The first is significant, the second not so much, but you yourself could add them to the article. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:35, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to change it. We encourage you to be bold in updating pages, because wikis like ours develop faster when everybody edits. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. You can always preview your edits before you publish them or test them out in the sandbox. If you need additional help, check out our getting started page or ask the friendly folks at the Teahouse. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 07:55, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

However, in this particular case, both article and talkpage have WP:BLUELOCK. 46.121, unless you register and stick around for awhile, Wikipedia:Requests for page protection/Edit may be of interest. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:21, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• See WP:CT/A-I and WP:ECR before telling IPs to go off and improve articles relating to Palestine and Israel. DuncanHill (talk) 12:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

The OP IP geolocates to the Middle East. What could go wrong? :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:09, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

People locating to Earth tend to have strong feelings in the matter. Tying the suggestion of a risk of non-NPOV edits to the Middle East is uncalled for.  --Lambiam 15:54, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I assume you're talking to Gråbergs Gråa Sång and/or DuncanHill, who issued warnings to the OP IP. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:26, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I was warning the long-established editors who were giving duff advice to an IP. I'll give you one too Bugs for being a typical ignorant American if you like. Or might it be unfair to assume that because you are from a particular locale, you share particular characteristics? DuncanHill (talk) 19:32, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

It's me that gave duff advice on this. As I try very hard not to edit in contentious topics, I wasn't aware of the scope of the restrictions. My apologies to the IP. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 12:41, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GEORGE WASHINGTON'S PROCLAMATION OF NEUTRALITY

What were some of the consequences from that formal announcement in 1793? Afrazer123 (talk) 20:50, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

See: Proclamation of Neutrality, which discusses it. Blueboar (talk) 21:00, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

New York City Civilian Heroism Award

I'm trying to put together a biography of Will Spens in my sandbox, but I don't have access to newspapers.com so it's slow going. One thing I'm still trying to track down is an award that was informally referred to as the "New York City Civilian Heroism Award", which he received. My guess is that it goes by another name, which is why I can't find any mention of it. I suspect there is some kind of coverage of Spens getting the award on newspapers.com through the Wikipedia Library, but I can't look. Viriditas (talk) 22:34, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

@Viriditas: Perhaps it is the Bronze Medallion? If you need access to sources, try WP:RX RudolfRed (talk) 01:58, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, that’s what I thought too, but I couldn’t find a historical list of all medal recipients. The subject would have won the award some time between 1970 and 1990. Viriditas (talk) 02:09, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

July 10

Animals in mouse stories

(For clarification, a mouse story is defined as a story with talking animals that is centered on mice.)

We know that cats are often associated with evil in mouse stories. I understand why this is standard. But dogs in mouse stories sometimes represent the need to save mice from cats. Is this logical?? Do dogs often save mice from cats in real life?? If not, then why is it standard in mouse stories for dogs to be used to save mice from cats?? (I want an answer from someone who is a real expert on mouse stories.) Georgia guy (talk) 15:36, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

If you wait for "a real expert on mouse stories" here you could be waiting a long time. Some examples would help. Recalling Tom and Jerry I would suggest that the dog is more interested in getting at the cat, and the consequent saving of the mouse is incidental to that. Shantavira|^{feed me} 15:44, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

The creators of the North Korean Squirrel and Hedgehog animated cartoon (semi-notorious among some anime fans) apparently worked out a whole elaborate theory of allegorically good and evil animals... AnonMoos (talk) 16:07, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

In the Krazy Kat stories, a dog tries to protect a cat from a mouse.  --Lambiam 20:52, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Indeed. That strip was a weird kind of love triangle. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:05, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Do dogs often save mice from cats in real life??

Surprisingly, this is a good question, it is easier for some breeds of pet dogs to be friends with pet rodents in the home than it is for cats, which appear to naturally want to hunt, torture, and consume them. Obviously, there are some breeds of dogs that will do this too, but there's lot of people who have dogs that don't kill mice, while cats are more prone to just freaking out and getting murder-ish. My guess is that the trope of dogs saving mice from cats arose from this, but is also a way to show that dogs are friendlier and more social with people, and by extension with other animals. Let's also remember the most important thing: in the last 9,000 years, cats were not domesticated like dogs, hence their wild predilection. Viriditas (talk) 21:28, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

The notion of "good" mice as victims of "evil" cats is opposite of reality: mice are pests, and cats help get rid of them. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:51, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Don't Panic! The Magratheans are intradimensional beings who take the physical form of mice. What you call "pests" are responsible for building and maintaining the Earth. Be nice to them, they are working on computuational problems of such complexity your puny human mind can't possibly comprehend. Viriditas (talk) 21:40, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Although not directly related to the question, altruism in animals may be of interest here. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:17, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

For an alternative view, see Ratter (dog). DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 18:39, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Nested Egyptian texts

Lepsius Neferhotep.jpg

This image, charmingly, has a hieroglyphic document within a hieroglyphic document. Are there any more examples like this? Temerarius (talk) 17:36, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Charming as the image may be, I question the characterization as being nested. The image is that of a scribe holding a document with a text. The image is accompanied by an image caption, a brief text explaining the image. As was then usual, such a caption was not placed above or below the image frame, but written inside it (like film subtitles today, but with a freer placement). In this case, the whole is a wall painting; classifying it as a document is stretching the concept.  --Lambiam 21:06, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Well they're at different scales, and it's interesting anyway. Why can't a wall painting be a document? Temerarius (talk) 04:47, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree that it can. The Wiktionary entry's definitions 2 and 4 do, I think, cover such wall paintings.

I am also not certain whether the 'caption' to which Lambiam refers actually is the black on white script, or the (more usual) coloured script below it. I would have interpreted the former as part of the illustration: however, not being conversant in heiroglyphics or ancient Egyptian, I cannot tell. Any Egyptologists present? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.82.201 (talk) 06:50, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

I meant the larger coloured hieroglyphs. The white object is part of the depicted scene: a scribe holding up a result of his labour.  --Lambiam 14:58, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

In which case, how is that depicted result, a document written in hieroglyphs, not nested within another document, the painting, also (partly) written in hieroglyphs, as Temerarius originally observed?

Tangentially, do you consider mediaeval illuminated manuscripts to be documents? Some of them also include illustrations of documents, which would also be 'nested'. The substrate of a document, whether parchment or wall, is surely unimportant. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.82.201 (talk) 08:38, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

終戦後の1949年に中国で製造が継続されていた6.5mm×50SR弾の包装。名称も三八式機関銃・小銃弾となっている

Consider the document shown here to the right. Is this an example of a document in Oriental characters within a document in Oriental characters?  --Lambiam 13:09, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Censored paragraph in Commentarii de Bello Civili

Hello, is there a paragraph about sex in Caesar's Commentarii de Bello Civili? My father told me it was censored at school in early '50s.-- Carnby (talk) 22:09, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I can only say that there was no such paragraph extant in the small section of the work I studied in the late '60s, but as it was about the Siege of Massilia, one wouldn't have expected it to.

Certainly Latin school textbooks could be censored in such a way. I recall our Latin master reading us one of Horace's Odes that was, along with a few others, excluded from the copies available to us impressionable lads. It mentioned a slave being forced to bugger his master and "meeting yesterday's dinner coming the other way." Possibly III.6? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.82.201 (talk) 08:54, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

His edition may have said something like "edited for the use of schools" which while it could mean "with any passages that might embarrass the masters removed" but could also mean "with an index and a gloss of the hard bits". DuncanHill (talk) 10:14, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Nothing to do with Caesar, but when I was taking an undergraduate Latin class about reading the poems of Catullus, there were only 3 or 4 students in the class, and we didn't all use the same book, and in the edition used by one of the students some lines of one of Catullus's poems was omitted! This was not a book intended for high school students, and not necessarily a textbook as such (probably more of scholarly edition), and likely published after the 1950s, but it was still censored to some degree... AnonMoos (talk) 12:24, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

July 11

Law about 'Maintenance for dependent'

There seems to be some important ruling/update from Supreme Court of India about 'Maintenance for dependent' (specially rights of divorcee women) including under section 125 of Indian CRPc code. (Ref)

My primary google search and understanding suggests, "Section 144" under new Bharatiya Nagarik Suraksha Sanhita (BNSS) replaces earlier section 125 of Indian CRPc code since July 1, 2024.

Help I am requesting is

1) Present WP article seems to provides this link to BNSS law

There may have been versions prior to Parliament passed the final bill, my wish is confirm the link WP article is accurate enough. Please help confirm accuracy of above given link as presently applicable BNSS law in India.

2) Please also give links of en WP articles related to 'Maintenance for dependent Law' (incl. Women) to confirm updates to the relevant articles.

3) I am just curious if en WP has any non-country specific general articles relating 'Maintenance for dependent'

Thanks Bookku (talk) 05:33, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

It's more commonly known as Alimony and/or Child support. In India in the 1980s, there was the infamous Shah Bano case (there doesn't seem to be much about it in Wikipedia), where Muslims held numerous protests and rallies against the idea that Muslim divorced wives were entitled to alimony... AnonMoos (talk) 08:13, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

In the States of America which first cousin with opposite sex cannot merry, can first cousin with same sex merry?

In the States of America which first cousin with opposite sex cannot merry, can first cousin with same sex merry? For first cousin with same sex, genetics isn't even an issue. I only know that for Illinois, the answer is “no”, see [28] and [29], but how about the other 30 States of America which first cousin with opposite sex cannot merry? 2402:7500:92C:19CD:A1F0:F846:FD54:2CEF (talk) 09:47, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

They can certainly "merry" if they're of a mind to. Whether they can marry is likely to vary by state - of which there are 50, not 30. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:55, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

See Mary-marry-merry merger. Alansplodge (talk) 13:38, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia has an article on that. See: Cousin marriage law in the United States. Blueboar (talk) 13:06, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

As far as I can see that article doesn't mention same-sex marriages at all, which is what they are asking about. Obviously not all the considerations are the same. Johnbod (talk) 13:35, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

It may not be explicitly mentioned in the laws of particular states. If one law states that first cousins cannot marry (without clarifying language on the sexes of the couple) and another law states that same-sex couples can marry (without clarifying language on the degree of relation of the couple), then it follows that same-sex first cousins cannot marry and it would require an explicit declaration in law to say otherwise. -- User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:49, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

But same sex first cousin marriage need not to consider eugenics. 220.132.216.52 (talk) 09:24, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

True, but unless that was specifically mentioned in the law against cousin marrige it would have no legal weight. To qualify for a legal marriage, the couple must meet all legal requirements and not fall under any prohibitions. One disqualification renders it illegal.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:53, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Could you add same-sex first cousin marriage to the table in this article? Thanks. 220.132.216.52 (talk) 09:26, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

The "30 states" in the question refers to those states (in addition to Illinois) where cousin marriage is largely or entirely illegal. From our article Cousin marriage law in the United States " It is illegal or largely illegal in 31 states and legal or largely legal in 19." -- User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:52, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Googling the subject, a sampling of states reveals that the laws about opposite-sex cousins marrying are not necessarily the same as same-sex cousins marrying, so we can't draw any inferences. They would have to be researched state-by-state. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:15, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

For a related question, see Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2024 February 22 § Are there any country which same-sex marriage is legal, sibling with the same sex can also marry?.  --Lambiam 14:54, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

July 12

Fulltext access to 1970s South African newspapers

Errol Musk is a former anti-apartheid member of the 1970s and 80s Pretoria city council. In 21st-century English-language sources, he has been covered in-depth for his controversial relationships with famous family members, but to create a BLP on him, we really need fulltext access to an archive of 1970s South Africans daily newspapers like Die Burger or Pretoria News.

Looked in The Wikipedia Library, but not seeing it. Did I happen to miss it? Feoffer (talk) 10:12, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

The place to ask is WP:REX... AnonMoos (talk) 12:15, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Parents of Andrew Jackson

> Was Andrew Jackson Senior a U.S. citizen? > Wikipedia does not mention whether the father, Andrew Jackson Senior, and mother, > Elizabeth Hutchinson Jackson, of President Andrew Jackson were U.S. citizens. 47.146.79.188 (talk) 15:13, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Andrew Jackson Senior died in 1767, so he could not have been a US citizen. I'm not aware of a source that goes into it, but Elizabeth could reasonably be considered a US citizen after 1777, since she was a free inhabitant of the states that joined in the Articles of Confederation. She died in 1981. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:39, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Probably 1781. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:27, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Andrew Jackson Junior was also not a natural born citizen, but was considered a US citizen in 1789 when the US Constitution took effect. Like his mother, he presumably formally became a citizen when South Carolina ratified the Articles of Confederation on February 5, 1778.  --Lambiam 19:51, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

July 1

"Pearl-clutching"

Where does the expression "pearl-clutching" come from? Lizardcreator (talk) 00:59, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Before looking it up: when one wears a pearl necklace. it rests in a prime position to be clutched if one brings their hand to their neck or clavicle area, which is a common gesture when flummoxed or offended.

After looking it up: yup. Remsense诉 01:01, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Wow, thanks for the quick reply! Consider me impressed. Lizardcreator (talk) 01:30, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

This could have been found on Wiktionary: Wiktionary:pearl-clutching#Etymology.  --Lambiam 08:53, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I find that it is most often used to describe people who would also be described as "busy-bodies" or "biddies". People whose shock and outrage is more for show than real and is often a hypocritical cover for their own bad behavior. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:57, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I suppose that this is inferred by the sort of person likely to wear a string of pearls; Hyacinth Bucket springs to mind. Alansplodge (talk) 16:38, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I also associate strings of pearls with rather vampy, femme fatale types. Hardly a description that applies to Hyacinth. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:39, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

That said, the stereotype is for ladies of a certain age and social standing, even though some vamps may occasionally wear pearls. That is who the saying applies to. Xuxl (talk) 14:48, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

For me it's Margaret Dumont. —Tamfang (talk) 21:16, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

"Marry me, and I'll never look at another horse!" MinorProphet (talk) 23:12, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

July 2

A super's banner

In The Inmost Light by Arthur Machen, Mr Salisbury is pondering his friend Dyson, a formerly-impoverished writer who has had a convenient inheritance. "As he walked he speculated on the probable fate of Dyson, relying on literature, unbefriended by a thoughtful relative, and could not help concluding that so much subtlety united to a too vivid imagination would in all likelihood have been rewarded with a pair of sandwich-boards or a super's banner." Now sandwich-boards I am familiar with, but a "super's banner" I am not. Does anyone know what it means? The story is from 1894. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 02:00, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Super is short for supernumerary, basically the stage equivalent of a film extra—someone hired to stand or move about in the background as needed. In some sorts of plays (Shakespeare comes to mind), a super might be a banner bearer. I myself was once a super standing absolutely still with a banner during a ball in a Stuttgart Ballet production of this.

Good story, isn't it? Deor (talk) 03:19, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

@Deor: Thank you, yes it is. We have an article Supernumerary actor. DuncanHill (talk) 10:48, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Also the related spear carrier, an actor given the most minor role. Alansplodge (talk) 15:17, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

It's sort of apropros that a decade later Machen himself, who might well have been described as having "subtlety united to a too vivid imagination", found himself employed as an actor, starting out in essentially supernumerary, nonspeaking roles before getting any lines. He seems to have found it somewhat more interesting than the fate he imagined for Dyson. Deor (talk) 15:57, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

The definition in this article is rather different from that of an "extra", and is moreover in no way supported by the cited source.  --Lambiam 19:06, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

OED has as one of the meanings of super "A person employed on a casual basis to perform a non-speaking or other minor part in the theatre, a film, or (now more usually) an opera or ballet; an extra", and one for supernumerary "A person outside a regular acting company who is employed to appear on stage in a non-speaking role; an extra". DuncanHill (talk) 09:39, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Translation issues

I'm reviewing Tamara Milashkina over at Talk:Tamara Milashkina/GA1 and there's one sticking point I've been unable to resolve. It revolves around whether Milashkina studied library science or worked as a librarian. We have four examples to choose from so far, one from a German dictionary, one from a recent Russian obituary, the Russian Wikipedia version, and the resulting version on the English Wiki. I will list them in that respective order:

• Sie ergriff zunächst den Beruf einer Bibliothekarin[30]
• После окончания школы-семилетки она поступила в астраханский библиотечный техникум, занималась в хоровом кружке[31]
• Окончила школу и библиотечный техникум. Пела в самодеятельности.[32]
• She first worked as a librarian[33]

Did Milashkina "work" as a librarian, or did she study to become a librarian? I am particularly interested in how the Russian obituary entry is translated. On my screen, it says "After graduating from school-semilet, she entered the Astrakhan Library College, studied in a choir circle", which doesn't make much sense, so maybe somebody can help? It looks like she attended library college, which is what we should write, but there's no indication she ever worked as a librarian. Viriditas (talk) 20:59, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

The two Russian sentences state that she studied to be a librarian, but do not address whether or not she worked as one. The German sentence says she worked as one. The English I figure you can make out. Xuxl (talk) 01:24, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Given the topic, the Russian reliable sources should carry the most weight. The TASS article states that at Astrakhan Library College she studied in a choir group and that she entered Astrakhan Music School in 1953. Her studying there is confirmed by the website of that school (now the Astrakhan Music College "M. P. Mussorgsky").^[34] Most likely, she was then on the cusp of turning 19. She left the Music School in 1954^[35] and was a third-year student at the Moscow Conservatory in 1957.^[36] This hardly leaves time for a stint as a librarian. By far the most plausible is is that she went straight from the Astrakhan Library College to the Astrakhan Music School to the Moscow Conservatory.  --Lambiam 09:30, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

This is exactly my position. There wasn’t enough time for her to work as a librarian. Can you take a look at the German source and figure out why they framed it the way they did? Viriditas (talk) 09:33, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

The German sentence can be translated as "She initially chose the profession of librarian" and interpreted as meaning that she studied so as to be able to later work as a librarian. It does not necessarily imply that she already worked in that capacity. --Wrongfilter (talk) 10:23, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, that’s exactly what I was looking for here. Viriditas (talk) 10:30, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

The German Wikipedia gets its info from the Großes Sängerlexikon. The latter cites two sources. For one source, in the journal Театр, 1961 issue 1, pp. 83ff, I find no more than a snippet view.^[37] The entry in the Großes Sängerlexikon got the name of the author of this source wrong ("Prokowsky" instead of "Pokrowsky"). I don't find any view of the other source, a book, whose title in Russian is a bit longer than suggested in the Großes Sängerlexikon's entry, to wit, Солистка Большого: Тамара Милашкина.  --Lambiam 10:42, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Resolved

July 3

Vote or votes?

Hi hi. I'm working a bit on Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Party_of_Revolutionary_Communism, a question here that I'm unsure of is the use of plural or singular on 'vote'. If there is a group of people, with each individual possessing one vote, is it correct to say 'ten delegates with decisive vote' or 'ten delegates with decisive votes'? I feel that in the latter case its implied that delegates could cast more than one vote each. -- Soman (talk) 13:18, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

"Ten delegates with decisive vote" is not standard English, at least for me. Votes are typically one per person per election; where that's not the case (such as when you can select multiple choices for things like city council or whatever), the details are usually described specifically. However, the full situation you're working on is already unusual; you're using "decisive" to (I think) only refer to those votes that were actually counted towards the result, in contrast with what you're calling "consultative votes". I don't know the details of what you're describing, but it sure seems odd: the whole point of voting is for it to count towards the result. It might be better to re-word the section to explicitly describe the situation. In standard English, all votes count towards the decision, so the term "decisive vote" means a special case where the results are tied and it's up to a small number of people (usually one) to cast the "decisive" vote that makes the decision. Matt Deres (talk) 14:21, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

In the context, some delegates only have an "advisory vote"; the regular votes of other delegates are called "decisive votes". I don't know how advisory votes are counted, if at all; in any case, the term "decisive vote" usually has a different meaning. ("Senator John McCain of Arizona, who just this week returned to the Senate after receiving a diagnosis of brain cancer, cast the decisive vote to defeat the proposal, joining two other Republicans, Susan Collins of Maine and Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, in opposing it."^[38])  --Lambiam 19:33, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Lenin allowed voting??? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:59, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I have the impression that it took some time for Lenin to fully consolidate his power. There weren't really any meaningful popular votes, but intra-Party votes might have been important for a while. It's not my field; maybe someone who knows more about it could weigh in. --Trovatore (talk) 21:10, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

What does Lenin have to do with the issue?  --Lambiam 22:42, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

The issues relate to the Party of Revolutionary Communism of 1918–20, which subsequently merged into Lenin's Bolshevik Party, the leading but far from only Party participating in governing Russia (soon to become the Soviet Union) at that time. Intra-party factions and splits, and inter-party disputes and merges were rife, and it was all done by committees, so votes in various contexts could be very important. Lenin was not an all-powerful dictator from the outset. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.226.178 (talk) 02:05, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I'd stress here that the words for 'vote'/'voice' are the same in many languages. And the terms 'decisive vote' and 'consultative vote' where used in the English-language materials of the Communist International. The statues of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union allowed candidate members to participate in party meetings with consultative vote, not decisive vote ([39]). And so forth. But my question was, should it be 'ten delegates with decisive vote' (vote in singular) or 'ten delegates with decisive votes' (votes in plural)? --Soman (talk) 12:22, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

@Soman: You're forgetting the articles; so is your question "should it be 'ten delegates with a decisive vote' (vote in singular) or 'ten delegates with decisive votes' (votes in plural)"? As a British English speaker, I'd go for the first (singular) version if you're treating the ten voters as a group (for example, they belong to a political grouping). If you're simply talking about ten unconnected people who each happen to have a decisive vote, then probably the second, although it looks a bit strange as I can't envisage how that would happen. Bazza 7 (talk) 12:58, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Note that "decisive vote" does not mean what it usually means. The meaning in this context is more like "first-class". Some delegates have first-class votes; these carry more weight than the votes of other delegates. So would you say, 'ten delegates with a first-class vote' or 'ten delegates with first-class votes'? I think the latter, also if these delegates belong to the same political faction.  --Lambiam 14:53, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

July 5

Japanese place names outside Japan

Assaí is a Brazilian municipality whose name is derived from the Japanese word 朝日 Asahi. Are there other instances of place names (villages, towns, cities, provinces etc..., not street names or restaurants) outside of Japan (modern and historical, thus excluding, for example, Karafuto] with a Japanese etymology or with an outright Japanese name? I'm particularly curious about South America, with its large Japanese diaspora. Thanks! 82.48.30.149 (talk) 14:13, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

There's Okinawa Uno, Bolivia. Nardog (talk) 12:50, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

July 6

Questions

1. Is there any Spanish dialect (other than Judaeo-Spanish) that has a phonemic contrast between close-mid and open-mid vowels?
2. Is there any dialect that pronounces the P in word psychology? Several other languages pronounce it.
3. Is there any Spanish dialect (other than Judaeo-Spanish) that has /z/ or /v/ phoneme?
4. Is there any Spanish dialect (other than Judaeo-Spanish) that has a /b/-/v/ distinction?
5. Is there any Spanish dialect (other than Judaeo-Spanish) where j / soft g is a coronal sound, rather than velar?
6. Is pronouncing the T in words tsunami and tsar more common that pronouncing P in psychology?
7. Why letter S is silent in viscount? Silent letters don't typically appear at the ends of non-initial syllables.
8. Are there any words in English with coda /sl/?
9. Are there any words in English that have a consonant cluster containing an affricate?
10. Are there any words in English that have affricates or /h/ in complex onsets?

--40bus (talk) 19:22, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

As for 8, "hassle" etc, if you're willing to accept syllabic L. AnonMoos (talk) 20:22, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

As for 6, many people pronounce "tsar" as if spelled "zar". I don't think there's much initial /ts/ except in Tsetse fly. AnonMoos (talk) 20:22, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

As for 7, presumably borrowed from French after the amount of silent consonants in French had increased... AnonMoos (talk) 20:22, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

I figured it might have been a later "etymological spelling", such as isle or debt. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 00:05, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Definitely from Old French.[40] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:11, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

As for 9, if medial clusters are allowed, there's "judgement". AnonMoos (talk) 20:22, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

There are accents where 'tree' is pronounced "chree" and (I think) 'dream' is "jream". And of course many people still pronounce 'which' as "hwich". Also 'hue'. — kwami (talk) 08:56, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

The /b/–/v/ contrast in Spanish is reported in the US, northern Mexico, and Puerto Rico (Exford 2018). Nardog (talk) 09:39, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Is there any Spanish dialect (other than Judaeo-Spanish) that has a phonemic contrast between close-mid and open-mid vowels?

Spanish phonology#Realization_of_/s/:

In Eastern Andalusian and Murcian Spanish, word-final /s/, /θ/ and /x/ regularly weaken, and the preceding vowel is lowered and lengthened:[157]

/is/ > [ɪː] e.g. mis [mɪː] ('my' pl)

/es/ > [ɛː] e.g. mes [mɛː] ('month')

/as/ > [æː] e.g. más [mæː] ('plus')

/os/ > [ɔː] e.g. tos [tɔː] ('cough')

/us/ > [ʊː] e.g. tus [tʊː] ('your' pl)

A subsequent process of vowel harmony takes place so lejos ('far') is [ˈlɛxɔ], tenéis ('you [plural] have') is [tɛˈnɛj] and tréboles ('clovers') is [ˈtɾɛβɔlɛ] or [ˈtɾɛβolɛ].[158]

I guess that is phonetic rather than phonemic. --Error (talk) 00:59, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Numerals

Do numerals constitute a distinct part of speech in English? --40bus (talk) 21:04, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

They're not usually considered to do so. AnonMoos (talk)

In general, cardinals would be nouns, and ordinals would be adjectives. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:06, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

In Finnish, it is a distinct part of speech. Even words like sata (100) and tuhat (1000) are definitely numerals, and not nouns. --40bus (talk) 06:16, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

(ec) Grammarians may label some word as a distinct part of speech, but is this reflected in its actual use in the language? The word sata can be inflected just like a common noun such as utu, so it can function as a noun, just like an English numeral such as hundred, which can be qualified with an adjective ("the happy hundred") and has a plural ("hundreds of people agree with me"). What makes cardinal numerals distinct from common nouns, though, at least in some languages, is that they can be used as determiners of nouns ("the first hundred years"). You can substitute the noun "lot" for "hundred" used as a noun ("the happy lot"; "lots of people agree with me"). You cannot do this with "hundred" used as a determiner (*"the first lot years"). That is IMO enough reason to assign cardinal numbers their own part of speech, but an alternative is to assign several parts of speech. Wiktionary classifies Finnish sata as only a numeral but English hundred as both a numeral and a noun. The English word some is classified as a pronoun, a determiner, and an adverb.

Rather in general, grammarians do not agree among themselves on which parts of speech there are and which ones should be assigned to given terms. The common assignments are also a matter of what is conventional, rather than theoretically sound.  --Lambiam 08:57, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Parts of speech are to some extent subjective. There are different kinds of noun that might be considered different parts of speech, and to some extent it's just tradition that they're not. English numerals, if you want to call them nouns, behave differently than other nouns. In "two [dogs] bark", "two" is not your typical noun. It doesn't take the plural, yet counts as a plural for the verb. (That's different than "I wrote four twos", where it does take the plural and does behave as a typical noun.) It's attributive ("two dogs bark"), yet can occur without the main noun ("two bark"), which is also odd. There's lots of behaviour like that that would be odd for a noun, so you could say that it's not a noun. — kwami (talk) 08:52, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Back in 2017, Zompist had a post on the syntax of mathematical sentences (e.g. "two plus two equals four"). Double sharp (talk) 09:14, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

NB (I don't know if this is the reason for your question, 40bus), if a numeral is not a part of speech, then the second bullet at Numeral needs to be corrected. I'm not bold enough to do it myself since I don't know what exactly is a "numeral" or a "part of speech". AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 13:22, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

July 7

Loans from Welsh in Old English

Were Welsh words with /ɬ/, /r̥/, and /n̥/ loaned into Old English (possibly also early Middle English) with /hl/, /hr/, and /hn/? What about loans in the other direction?

(Somewhat inspired by 40bus' question about h-clusters.) Double sharp (talk) 09:21, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't know if there were enough Celtic loans into Old English for us to know.

Welsh ll came in later as fl, at least in 'Floyd' and 'flummery'. — kwami (talk) 10:49, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

We have a List of English words of Welsh origin, which as — kwami says above, are remarkably few considering that the English and Welsh have lived together for more than a thousand years. Alansplodge (talk) 11:28, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Swedish words of Finnish origin are of a similar magnitude... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 18:20, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

I was afraid of that. :( But surely names of Welsh people and settlements must have been recorded by the English? Double sharp (talk) 11:44, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

They were and are recorded and used, since Welsh is a living language, but they did and do not generally give rise to words in the vocabulary of English. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.226.178 (talk) 15:24, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Well, yes of course. I was thinking of the period when Old English still had those consonant clusters.

So, just thinking of a prominent Welsh person from the medieval period whose name would've contained /ɬ/: surely Llywelyn the Great must've been mentioned in some contemporary English texts? How was his name spelled in those texts? Double sharp (talk) 15:31, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

400 years later, Shakespeare included a character in Henry V called Fluellen, which WP describes as "an Anglicised version of Llywelyn". Turner Street (talk) 12:10, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that's like kwami's examples of Floyd and flummery. By then /hl/ did not exist in English, so /fl/ was perceived as closest to /ɬ/. What I was wondering was whether /hl/ was ever used to borrow Welsh words when that consonant cluster existed in English – but as indicated by kwami's latest response in this thread, the question may not be answerable due to the small size of the Old English corpus. Double sharp (talk) 17:02, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Alansplodge's example of Latin "Lhein" below is suggestive. This was very early Middle English, so perhaps the sound still occurred, or was remembered. If hw had become MdE wh by this time, we might expect hl to have become lh as well. So perhaps this is indirect evidence for what you're looking for?

Note that Llanddewi didn't get the same treatment. Perhaps /hl/ was only maintained in stressed syllables? I'm just speculating here. How important would English phonotactics or orthography be (if there even was an English orthography at the time for hl to have become lh -- unless that happened at the end of the OE era?) to a Welshman writing in Latin when the court language was Norman? It's likely someone has analyzed this somewhere. — kwami (talk) 19:09, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Okay, Rhyl gives some examples of how Middle English writers tried to represent Welsh /r̥/ around 1300: Hulle, Hul, Ryhull. But I'm not sure if Middle English had already lost /hr/ by then. Those examples are referenced to Owen and Morgan's Dictionary of the Place-names of Wales (2007), so that might be a good place to start researching this question. Now if only I had a copy. Double sharp (talk) 15:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Gerald of Wales, writing in Latin in 1191 (for a French-speaking English audience) in Itinerarium Cambriae or Journey through Wales, for example has Llanddewi Brefi as "Landewi Brevi" and Llŷn as "Lhein". Not sure if this helps. Gerald was presumably able to speak Welsh, but English was not the language of geographers or historians at this time. Alansplodge (talk) 19:02, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

I think we're looking for something earlier. Presumably Old English would've maintained the distinctions that were available to it. The problem is attestation: the surviving Old English corpus is quite small (a single person can -- and does -- study the entire thing!), so it's possible that such names do not occur, or occur with such low frequency that we can't be sure if the surviving tokens are representative.

But Lhein is certainly suggestive. — kwami (talk) 21:21, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Nothing to do with Welsh, but proto-Germanic "hringaz" was borrowed into Finnish as "rengas"... AnonMoos (talk) 17:16, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Brittonic words for 18

And continuing the Celtic theme of my previous question: what's the history of the factor-names for 18? I'm referring to Breton triwec'h "three sixes" and Welsh deunaw "two nines". Cornish etek seems to be regular additive 8 + 10 instead, and English Wiktionary tells me that Breton and Welsh both have (presumably rarer? they're not on the main Wiktionary page listing translations of wikt:eighteen) regular alternatives (even if we restrict ourselves to the traditional vigesimal system for Welsh). Double sharp (talk) 16:00, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

The book "Lingo" by Gaston Dorren has a brief discussion of the irregularity of Breton number words, where 78 + 59 is three-six-and-three-twenty plus nine-and-half-hundred. He also says that Welsh (unlike Breton) has regular forms for calculating with, as opposed to the irregular forms for counting. Some modern languages of India also have a rather complicated system of sub-100 number words... AnonMoos (talk) 17:16, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Sino-Xenic toponyny

What are some factors that have traditionally played a part in determining whether places in Japan, Korea, and Vietnam use native toponyms or Chinese-derived toponyms? Primal Groudon (talk) 18:25, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Seoul traditionally had no Chinese characters corresponding to its name, unlike many other Korean placenames of any importance... AnonMoos (talk) 18:39, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Although the names of Japanese places like Fukuoka, Kumamoto and Nagasaki are written in Japanese with kanji (福岡; 熊本; 長崎), the names themselves are generally Japanese. The characters for Nagasaki are read in Chinese like Chángqí (Hanyu Pinyin romanization).  --Lambiam 09:58, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

In Hokkaido, we find place-names like Sapporo 札幌 or Furano 富良野 which are originally Ainu, but were adapted phonetically into Japanese and then given kanji with the appropriate sound. Double sharp (talk) 10:05, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

My focus for this question is on the etymology of the toponyms, not the script used to write them. Primal Groudon (talk) 19:15, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

This is a very interesting question! I was able to find online a text called “Standardisation of place names in countries influenced by the chinese writing system” by Hiroshi Tanabe. It goes into detail about it. I’m quoting it here: (Redacted) 82.48.30.149 (talk) 13:45, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

"Kanji" is the Japanese name for Chinese characters, in China it's "hanzi", in Korea "hanja" and in Vietnamese "chữ Hán". 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

It probably depends on the fact that the author is Japanese (it was a quote from him). Just a question: why was the quote redacted? --195.62.160.60 (talk) 15:20, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

The original PDF of Tanabe and Watanabe's document is here. (It's from the institution of one of the authors, so it should be fine.) Double sharp (talk) 15:41, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

It was perceived as a copyright violation, without giving credit to the original authors of the paper, I believe. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 16:41, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Unlike Wikipedia content, where attribution is sufficient, copyright may prevent reproduction unless permission is obtained. 92.29.246.121 (talk) 16:46, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Ah. When I said "it should be fine", I meant "it should be fine to link". Certainly not to quote at as much length as it had been quoted before redaction. Double sharp (talk) 06:41, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

July 8

Individual conjecture

Journalist Nesta Roberts wrote in 1971 about the later so-called 27 Club members: "In what proportion drink, drugs, and desperation respectively contributed to those deaths is a matter for individual conjecture." I'm not sure what exactly she means with "individual conjecture": Is it "We can assume the proportion was different for each of those individuals", or "Everybody may make his own assumptions on this topic."? --KnightMove (talk) 15:58, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Definitely the second option ("Everybody can do their own guessing")... AnonMoos (talk) 16:14, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree that that is what she did write, but is it what she actually meant to write? Why should anyone (including myself) care about what I think caused Jimi Hendrix's death? It seems to make more sense to state that each case must be assessed individually, and I suspect that she just formulated this poorly. Of course there's no way to know for certain. --Wrongfilter (talk) 16:29, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

It's the same thing as leaving it up to the reader, which was already a cliché centuries ago. Jane Austen ended Northanger Abbey with the following rather sarcastic final sentence: "I leave it to be settled by whomsoever it may concern, whether the tendency of this work be altogether to recommend parental tyranny or reward filial disobedience." AnonMoos (talk) 17:33, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

In mathematics, and possibly elsewhere, the phrase is "...left as an exercise for the reader". --Trovatore (talk) 20:33, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

I've read Northanger Abbey (twice) and I know a bit of mathematics and I'm still not convinced, although, it should be noted, I did agree about the literal meaning. The context of the sentence might help. --Wrongfilter (talk) 20:42, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

@Wrongfilter: "„Jim Morrison, vocalist of The Doors, who had lived in Paris since the beginning of this year, died here on July 3 in what has become almost the classic fashion of the folk hero of pop culture. Like Brian Jones, Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix: and at the same age, 27, he was found dead. In what proportion drink, drugs, and desperation respectively contributed to those deaths is a matter for individual conjecture.“ --KnightMove (talk) 10:12, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Here purely a matter for individual conjecture is given as a definition for the term anybody's guess. In this definition, individual corresponds with anybody's – it refers to those doing the guessing. The subtext is that such guessing is baseless, also expressed in the saying your guess is as good as mine – I can't know, and neither can you. Paraphrasing, she is saying that speculation how much each factor contributed to these deaths is meaningless; we don't know and we can't know.

If one shouldn't engage in speculation about specific cases, guessing group statistics for the 27 Club as a whole is even more pointless, so for that reason it is also unlikely that that is what she meant. As I understand the sentence she takes it for granted, though, that each death should be considered on a case-by-case basis; in some inebriety may have played a major role in the events leading to a person's death, while in other cases it perhaps did not. We just don't know more than what is known.  --Lambiam 22:18, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

June 30

A Poor Young Working Lady's Song

I need a song that has a young lady born in a poor family with many younger siblings. As the oldest one among them, she went to work at a very young age to help her parents feed the kids. Gotta be a loving family. -- Toytoy (talk) 12:32, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Are you looking for a pre-existing song?   If not, then that description could be used as a prompt for an AI music generator. Otherwise, try 53 Songs About Hard working woman (Pop, Rap & More) --136.54.106.120 (talk) 14:43, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

It was a discussion about peoples' shared experiences. People around the world may be facing the same problems and then I was asked if there's a country or rock and roll song like this where a young woman has to work to help her parents. I could not come up with a song like this. Most of these femm songs in the U.S. were very individual. I don't know if Loretta Lynn had a song themed this manner. -- Toytoy (talk) 20:06, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

"Coal Miner's Daughter" by Loretta Lynn and Dolly Parton's "Coat of Many Colors" come to mind; they don't directly satisfy your specifications, but do address the subject from a different perspective. "The House That Built Me" by Miranda Lambert is similar. "Family Portrait" by P!nk touches on the theme, but the family seems more dysfunctional than loving. --136.54.106.120 (talk) 21:18, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

"Fancy" by Bobbie Gentry (later covered by Reba McEntire) is about a young girl that her mom sends out to "work", but it doesn't really fit your question either. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:47, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

In particular, does the song mention any siblings? —Tamfang (talk) 00:34, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Tracy Chapman and Fast Car could fit. 41.23.55.195 (talk) 06:19, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Was Mrs. Which's height in the 2018 movie supposed to be a reference to Oprah's life experience?

When Mrs. Which (Oprah Winfrey) makes her appearance in A Wrinkle in Time, she is giant. One of the other astral beings tells her that she is "the wrong size", to which Mrs. Which responds "Is there such a thing as the wrong size?"

I recently watched a YouTube video of someone reading Brad Meltzer's I Am Oprah Winfrey. At one point, the book's literary prose (referring to Oprah in the first person, as is usually the case for Ordinary People Change the World books) states that some of the people who used to ridicule Oprah in the past considered her to be the wrong size, and the book's use of the phrase "the wrong size" there reminded me of the aforementioned moment in that movie.

P.S. Come to think of it, this looks like it may belong in the Humanities section. If you think Humanities seems more like the correct place for this than Entertainment, feel free to move it there. – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 15:47, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

The book was written in 1962, before Oprah was well known, so I doubt it refers to her life experience. RudolfRed (talk) 16:10, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm not referring to the book. The only time that size seems to have been brought up in the source material was when Mrs Whatsit told the human protagonists that there's no difference between the size of the smallest microbe and the largest galaxy. However, I'm pretty sure the book never described any character as being unnaturally gigantic, so the book is out of the question. (figuratively and literally) – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 20:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

The screenplay for A Wrinkle in Time was written after 2010, so dialogue in the film can easily have been inspired by Oprah's experience before she broke through. She herself wrote about the experience ("They told me I was the wrong color, the wrong size, and that I showed too much emotion."^[41]), so we may assume it stung.  --Lambiam 20:52, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

July 1

Paper flowers that grow when you put them in water

When I was little, there was a popular novelty item or toy made of colored paper that came as a little lump which unfolded to a pretty flower when you put it in water. Do we have an article about them? ◅ Sebastian Helm 🗨 14:25, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Blooming paper flowers is the most common name. Evidently, there is no article (yet). You are more than welcome to try creating one! --136.54.106.120 (talk) 17:37, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the name. Unfortunately, I don't know much more than what I wrote above. When I search for that name online, I find some how-to instructions, but no encyclopedic information. ◅ Sebastian Helm 🗨 12:28, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

In the 1996 book The Japanese Contributions to the English Language: An Historical Dictionary I find:^[42]

paper flower, n. (1935) Paper [Loose transl. of suichūka < suichū underwater + -ka flower, all < MChin)] JAPANESE FLOWER, an imitation paper flower that unfolds in water. O (at paper, sb. 12a) [2]

(Indeed a loose translation.) In Kanji, suichūka is 水中花, which appears to also be the Chinese orthography – it is the title of an album of Hong Kong singer Alan Tam.^[43] The Japanese Wikipedia has an article 水中花, which states (courtesy Google Translate):

They are thought to have been introduced to Japan from China during the Edo period. During the Enpo era, it became popular to float them in sake cups as a pastime at drinking parties, and so they were also called "sakechūka" (flowers in sake) or "haichūka" (flowers in a cup). During the Meiwa era, they became popular as souvenirs at toothpick shops in Asakusa, and were often sold at festivals.

In the past, they were made by compressing the stems of the Japanese laurel tree, the cores of the elm tree, and wood chips, but modern ones are made from synthetic fibers (silki). Corn stalks have also been used. It is also considered a summer seasonal word.

The article also reveals that they are mentioned in Marcel Proust's Swann's Way, the first volume of In Search of Lost Time, written in 1913:^[44]

And just as the Japanese amuse themselves by filling a porcelain bowl with water and steeping in it little crumbs of paper which until then are without character or form, but, the moment they become wet, stretch themselves and bend, take on colour and distinctive shape, become flowers or houses or people, permanent and recognisable, so in that moment all the flowers in our garden and in M. Swann's park, and the water-lilies on the Vivonne and the good folk of the village and their little dwellings and the parish church and the whole of Combray and of its surroundings, taking their proper shapes and growing solid, sprang into being, town and gardens alike, from my cup of tea.

 --Lambiam 10:30, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

July 2

New American Dad Season 21

When is this new season going to come out on TBS, August or September? 172.13.193.84 (talk) 02:42, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Funniest scene in Despicable Me 2

After El Macho drank the mutagen, it turns him into a Grimace-like monster, but bigger, fatter, more hairer, and probably meaner, as well as his clothes and medallion getting ripped off during the transformation. 172.13.193.84 (talk) 02:48, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

What's your question? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:20, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

"Funniest" is entirely subjective in this context. Cullen328 (talk) 03:25, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

From the description provided, the gag seems to be based on a trope that includes the Incredible Hulk and Mr. Hyde, if that is the point of the non-question. I haven't seen the movie, however. Xuxl (talk) 13:37, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I've not seen any of them, but since even the TV ads seem un-funny, it's possible to some viewers that all the scenes in those movies would be equally funny. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:56, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Old movie, can't remember the name

Hot springs pop up in a town, become a huge tourist attraction, but a doctor finds poison bacteria and there's plenty of drama over if he should blow the whistle or not. This also may have been a play with a recent/upcoming NYC production. Anyone remember what it's called? Thanks, Abeg92contribs 11:37, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I tried searching for movie poison hot springs, movie dangerous hot springs, and show dangerous hot springs, but the only film to come back was Dante's Peak, which is pretty clearly not your movie. Do you remember anything else about it? Matt Deres (talk) 15:26, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

The play is An Enemy of the People by Henrik Ibsen. Omidinist (talk) 04:31, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

According to our article, "A new adaptation by Amy Herzog on Broadway at the Circle in the Square Theatre previewed on February 27, 2024, with an opening night March 18."  --Lambiam 11:40, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

About the Minions

I was wondering who or what these Minions actually are: aliens of an unknown origin, toy robots with minds of their own, or failed by-products of a cloning experiment gone horribly wrong? 172.13.193.84 (talk) 15:44, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Minions (film) says: "Minions are small, yellow pill-shaped creatures which have existed since the beginning of time, evolving from single-celled organisms into beings which exist only to serve history's most evil masters, but they accidentally end up killing all their masters: rolling a Tyrannosaurus into a volcano, letting a caveman get mauled by a bear, crushing a Pharaoh and his subjects with a pyramid, and exposing Count Dracula to sunlight. They are driven into isolation after firing a cannon at Napoleon while in Russia and start a new life inside a cave, but after many years, the Minions become sad and unmotivated without a master to serve..." Alansplodge (talk) 15:51, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

That would explain everything and it makes perfect sense, now. 172.13.193.84 (talk) 16:15, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Police Academy cartoon complete series DVD

Are there any future plans to bring the complete Police Academy cartoon series on DVD, but this time all 65 episodes instead of 30? 172.13.193.84 (talk) 18:27, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

We can't answer requests for predictions. Only the producers would know that, so I suggest you contact them. Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:17, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Not really. The producers could have announced such plans. That would make it a legitimate question for the ref desk. --Viennese Waltz 22:02, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

July 6

Where's the deepest soccer pyramid on Earth?

The place or places where a team would need the most net promotions to go from rock bottom to where it can't be promoted anymore (if they never fail any promotion requirements and the pyramid stays how it is now in the future) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:57, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

I have never seen anything to suggest that a country has a pyramid with as many levels as the English football league system with it's 11 official levels and 9 additional notional levels giving 20 in all. Nanonic (talk) 20:13, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Would 11 random old mates in the part of London that has a 20 have to start at 20 or 11? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:28, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Why do you always ask follow up questions instead of just doing your own research? Are you just here because you're lonely or do you actually want answers for something you are doing? Nanonic (talk) 22:19, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Always remember to never say "always" or "never". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:15, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

English football league system#the system lists (and links to) 25 leagues in Tier 11, many (all?) of which have divisions below their top/Premier division, which takes the Tiers down to at least 13: you might be able to drill further down than this using the 'Relegation to' links in the Infoboxes, or other links in the articles about these leagues/divisions, or articles about their indivisual teams.

The same initial article lists many, and links to a few, leagues in the notional Tiers 12–20, including the Tier 20 Lancashire and Cheshire Amateur Football League. Have a look at that and at some of the higher-tier entries with articles, and decide where your "11 random old mates" might slot in. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.226.178 (talk) 15:00, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

July 7

Tie-break methods in soccer

I just wondered because this method isn't mentioned anywhere on our vast Wikipedia... a common criticism of penalty shootouts is that teams will play defensively, hoping for a win at penalties.

Has this method even found a serious treatment? (Yes, I'm looking for references to extend some articles.)

Let there be two teams, Acorn and Beetroot.

Acorn scores 1:0 in the 21st minute. Beetroot equalizes to 1:1 in the 40th minute, and scores another goal in the 47th minute. Acorn equalizes to 2:2 in the 50th minute.

After the regular playing time of 90 minutes, Acorn led the score for 19 minutes, and Beetroot for 3.

Acorn would be given the victory because it led for a longer time.

This method would have a very obvious advantage: It rewards scoring goals, and it rewards scoring goals early. Paragem (talk) 10:57, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

No, sorry but that's a terrible idea. The last-minute equaliser or winner to save or win the match is one of the most exciting moments in football. Just ask Jude Bellingham. --Viennese Waltz 11:22, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

One obvious way to exploit this would be for one team to score early and then play simply to keep possession of the ball rather than score any more goals; it can be very difficult for the opposition to win the ball if no risks are being taken with it – see Running out the clock#Association football. This would be very boring for all concerned, and is very unpopular with spectators when employed as a tactic. In the past, the Laws of the Game have been amended several times to try to minimise time-wasting during play.

Hoping for a win in a penalty shootout (rather than by playing better over 90 or 120 minutes) is a very unreliable tactic, as even the best players can miss penalties. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.226.178 (talk) 15:15, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, Cristiano Ronaldo, "the top goalscorer of all time", failed to score in a penalty shootout the other night, resulting in Portugal's elimintation from the Euro 2024. Alansplodge (talk) 18:29, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Not quite, he failed to score on a penalty in regular time in the previous round against Slovenia, but Portugal still won on penalties. They then lost to France on penalties in the quarter finals, but Ronaldo was successful on his shot in that shootout - two of his teammates missed to give France the win. Xuxl (talk) 19:14, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Ah yes, thanks. Alansplodge (talk)

Seton Academy: Join the Pack! & The Café Terrace and Its Goddesses English dub

Will there be any future plans to have both animes release in english dub? 172.13.193.84 (talk) 15:54, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

See the responses to your previous query above. If currently there are plans for such future releases, it might be possible to find published references to them (and maybe a reader of this might want to go and look for them), but nobody can know now if someone in the future is going to make plans, which is what you've asked. See Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a crystal ball.

Since both of these are Japanese properties, you might have more success asking at the Japanese-language Wikipedia, where everyone will be able to read Japanese sources – not many people who respond here at the English-language Wikipedia can do so. {The poster formerly known as 87/81.230.195} 151.227.226.178 (talk) 06:44, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

July 8

Reaction of Janis Joplin on Jimi Hendrix' death?

Jimi Hendrix and Janis Joplin were friends, and they died within 16 days. But is there any known reaction of Joplin on Hendrix' death? I don't find anything on the web, but I still hope that something may have been recorded. --KnightMove (talk) 07:37, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Presumably she was saddened by his death. What else might you expect as an answer? Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:40, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

I imagine he's expecting some referenced quotes from her on the matter, which seems like a reasonable question to me. --Viennese Waltz 08:51, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Indeed... or, as number-two choice, also third-person accounts reporting on her reaction. --KnightMove (talk) 09:12, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

A fairly thorough Google search found nothing useful. As she died shortly after Hendrix, it seems likely that nobody knows. Alansplodge (talk) 13:51, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

July 10

About the scene in Good Burger 2

In one scene of Good Burger 2, where Ed and Dexter found out that their old enemy, Kurt has a sister who wants revenge on them for ruining her family's legacy, Dexter should have said "Well your brother deserved it, because he's been adding dangerous, but illegal chemicals in the meat supply without knowing about the adverse side-effects it'll have on people." 172.13.193.84 (talk) 16:31, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

What's your question? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:37, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

And how would that have been funny? It is a comedy film (I gather). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.82.201 (talk) 15:06, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

There are more movies that could do with a script rewrite. In Austin Powers: International Man of Mystery, when Austin Powers finds out that Dr. Evil plans to to drill a nuclear warhead into the Earth's core and trigger volcanic eruptions worldwide, he should have told him, "Your plan is dangerous and unethical; people may get hurt."  --Lambiam 21:02, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

There is one practice of the analysis of artwork in which you would emphasize that the movie poster seems to be deliberately if technically blurring the word "Austin" into a possible "Austim", whatever the purpose of the trickery if there's one there must exist a theory explaining that unethical processes could not warned against in the course of the intrigue. --Askedonty (talk) 22:27, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

July 11

Don't Ever Talk to Clocks

I'm looking for information about the 1964 TV Movie titled Don't Ever Talk to Clocks because I'm wanting to creat a Wikipedia page for it but I can't find any sources that show this movie or any articles that show if the movie has survived. Matthew John Drummond (talk) 18:22, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

No sources -> no article. The great majority of TV movies aren't notable. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:02, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

so there's no information about this TV Play Matthew John Drummond (talk) 14:08, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't look like it. It's listed in the filmography of its main actor Peter Sallis, but no other information seems to be available. It may well be lost. --Viennese Waltz 14:42, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

The IMDb has some info, but very little: [45]. Since we don't recognize this as a reliable source, this is not immediately helpful. But perhaps it gives a handle on finding sources such as newspaper reviews.  --Lambiam 20:05, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Here is one reliable source, found by using IMDb info as search terms. No in-depth coverage, but it is a start. Using "Don't Ever Talk to Clocks" as a search term on the RTÉ Photographic Archive you get more hits, such as one revealing that Peter Collinson wrote an article about this TV movie for the RTV Guide of 14 February 1964.^[46] It will not be easy to dig up a copy, but perhaps the RTÉ keeps archived copies of their guide.  --Lambiam 20:18, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

When you say dig up a copy are you referring to an article about the tv play Matthew John Drummond (talk) 13:40, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

I found just one reference in Newspapers.com (pay site), just a TV listing with no description. On Feb 18, 1964, on a channel called Eire Television, at 8:50 (presumably P.M.) Liverpool Daily Post (Merseyside ed.), p.3. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:48, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

July 12

Rock concert

Behind the band, in the film of Roger Waters' In the Flesh – Live concert, is the usual back-projection screen. During the bitterly sardonic song "The Bravery of Being Out of Range", the view through a periscope, with azimuth graticule clearly visible, is thrown on the screen. I expected the General Belgrano to hove into view, Waters having been an outspoken critic of Thatcher and the Falklands War, but instead it's a (presumably manned) oil rig, which promptly (and spectacularly) explodes. Did this represent a real event? Doug butler (talk) 00:04, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

The actual clip from the concert film is here, but I don't see any back projections, just a still of some men sitting at a bar. --Viennese Waltz 07:19, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Could be a reference to the Piper Alpha explosion near Scotland, 1988. PiusImpavidus (talk) 07:54, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Isn't the submarine attack during Perfect Sense? DuncanHill (talk) 10:23, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

You're right, of course. Doug butler, you got the song wrong. That said, the clip from "Perfect Sense" is here (at about the 6'30" mark). An oil rig is shown, but it doesn't explode. --Viennese Waltz 10:44, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Mea culpa — jumping to conclusions based on faulty memory. Thanks for that. It was a mighty film though; have to drag it out again. Doug butler (talk) 11:13, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Aaarrggghhhh. Heave, blast ye. Clarityfiend (talk) 11:41, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Crying Down the Lane

I trying to find information about the 1962 TV Mini Series titled Crying Down the Lane. I'm also trying to find out weather if the tv show has survived or is now lost. Matthew John Drummond (talk) 14:59, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

There is an entry for it on IMDb, here.

Note that for the purposes of creating a Wikipedia Article, Wikipedia does not consider IMDb to be a Reliable source because (like Wikipedia) its contents are user-generated. Obviously this does not apply if you're merely pursuing an interest. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.82.201 (talk) 07:15, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

June 29

Which US city is closest to the Equator?

I can't find an answer to the question above. When Googling I get answers only to questions I didn’t ask, such as "Which city in the 50 states is closest to the Equator?" (which excludes territories and dependencies, which I don't want), "Which state capital is closest?" (not my question), and "Which state is closest?" (cut it out with the states already) but not just plain "Which city is closest?".

I think the answer is Charlotte Amalie, but I'm not sure if I'm missing a territory or dependency. Thanks for any help. 2604:3D09:A17E:7300:5DEA:D376:3AAD:571 (talk) 23:31, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Hmm, I think I'm not too surprised that you would get those Google results. I would intuitively interpret "US city" to mean "city in the fifty states plus the District". If you mean to broaden it beyond that you probably need to use different phrasing. --Trovatore (talk) 05:50, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Hagåtña, the capital of Guam, is closer than Pago Pago, but can hardly be called a city. However, it is labelled as such ("the City of Hagåtña") by the government of Guam. Dededo is also closer and considerably more populous than both Hagåtña and Charlotte Amalie.  --Lambiam 00:00, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Surely it's one of the Hawaiian cities? HiLo48 (talk) 01:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

That might depend on the definition of city. "The U.S. territory of Guam is comprised of 19 villages."^[47] However, the Virgin Islands are farther south than the Hawaiian Islands, so Charlotte Amalie, U.S. Virgin Islands could be correct. Still, according to our article, it is recognized as a town by the U.S. Census Bureau. American Samoa and Palmyra Atoll are even farther south, but might not have any "cities" (Pago Pago has the largest population at 3,656). Also note that "The Greater Pago Pago Metropolitan Area comprises several villages along Pago Pago Harbor",^[48] yet I haven't found any official source noting it as a "city". --136.54.106.120 (talk) 02:33, 30 June 2024 (UTC) . . . Edit:03:26, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

I like how in American Samoa, Pago Pago correctly comprises several villages; whilst in Guam, Hagåtña incorrectly "comprises of villages". Folly Mox (talk) 11:38, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

The U.S. Census Bureau might not have a rigorous definition of city. They do seem to have independent city and consolidated city, but mostly appear to employ the technical terms metropolitan and micropolitan statistical areas – which can contain a principal city.

I suspect the term city might be one of the things that varies by state, but one can only assume that at least for their unemancipated colonial toeholds minor outlying territories territories the federal government would have a single definition. Folly Mox (talk) 11:30, 30 June 2024 (UTC) edited 14:16, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

"I suspect the term city might be one of the things that varies by state" Yep. In my own state of North Carolina, a city is any municipality that chose to use that word when incorporating. In Massachussetts it is based on the form of government, with cities having a mayor-council or council-manager type of government. In Louisiana it is based on population, with a minimum of 5000 people needed. In North Dakota any incorporated community is a city. I could probably find many other definitions in the other states, but that should get the point across. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:29, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

PS: aside from some research stations and military installations the United States Minor Outlying Islands are uninhabited. I assume you are actually interested in the Territories of the United States.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:37, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Whoops, yes, thanks. Fixed. Folly Mox (talk) 14:16, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Is the government of Guam official enough?^[49] Reportedly,

"En la isla de Guam sólocabría hablar de ciudad en un caso: el deAgaña, que obtuvo tal título en 1686, trashaber ostentado el de villa con anterioridad."^{[50], p.433} — "On the island of Guam it is only possible to speak of a city in one case: that of Agaña, which obtained such title in 1686, after having previously held the title of town."

Being a Spanish possession at the time, the title would have been bestowed by a decree of the Spanish crown. In Europe, the traditional view is: once a city, forever a city.  --Lambiam 13:06, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Not always, see Rochester Martin of Sheffield (talk) 14:32, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Traditions are not invariably upheld. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.226.178 (talk) 19:12, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

My first job was in Cardiff which achieved city status in 1905, so I have a soft spot for Llandaff, the "city within a city"; it was never incorporated, but has its own cathedral. See also St Davids. MinorProphet (talk) 17:14, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I became intrigued by how the USA classifies cities when I discovered Soldier, Kansas, population 102. HiLo48 (talk) 05:57, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

I think it's state-by-state. In California, as far as I understand, there is no official distinction between "city" and "town"; incorporated municipalities may refer to themselves by either name. There is a distinction between a charter city and a general law city, which may bear some vague analogy to the notion of "city status" that MinorProphet references, but I think it's not a very close one. --Trovatore (talk) 06:26, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

(While our article does not describe it as a "city", you might also be interested in Monowi, Nebraska.) --Trovatore (talk) 06:43, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

June 30

Plant milk ratings

What is the highest rated type of plant milk for use as a creamer in coffee, in terms of taste tests? I'm not talking about brands, but rather the type of plant milk, such as soy, almond, oat, pea, etc. I've been wondering about this for a while, but I've never been able to find an answer. The other strange thing is that the answer appears to change over time, as if taste is a function of trends and market preference, maybe even culture? But surely, someone can point to a specific type of plant milk and say, "our overall taste tests show that people prefer this type in coffee over others". But what if this kind of result is the function of specific populations, where taste is determined by other factors? On the other hand, food science is fairly mature at this point, so it should be quite easy to say "x type of plant milk is preferred by most people in coffee", but not just as a function of sales (because people will often buy what is cheaper, not simply what tastes the best). Is this doable? Can one say which is both preferred and tastes the best? Viriditas (talk) 21:54, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Advances in food science will hardly be of help. One can imagine a study in which a panel of tasters, say regular cappuccino users, are asked to rank various plant milks. But designing such a study is not easy. There are many confounding issues, including personal preferences, cultural preferences, and significant differences in taste (e.g. sweetness) between brands for the same type of milk substitute. I have a hard time imagining a research council funding an independent study on ranking the suitability of milk substitutes for use as a creamer in coffee. If any such studies have been conducted, they were most likely of the type informally conducted by newspapers or magazines.  --Lambiam 07:22, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Some plant milks are not suitable for all consumers for medical reasons. Giving almond milk to someone with a nut allergy would not be clever! Martin of Sheffield (talk) 08:44, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

My own original research involving witnessing non-vegan friends opting for plantmilk upgrades at coffee shops would indicate that oatmilk is the preferred creamer for this purpose. I acknowledge the sample may not be representative and few coffee shops stock more than three or four species of non-dairy creamers. Folly Mox (talk) 10:51, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Which plant-based ‘milk’ is best? (BBC). Alansplodge (talk) 16:59, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

That's very helpful. Thank you everyone. Viriditas (talk) 20:17, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Resolved

Superfluous frappery

Wikipedia tells me milk comes from mammals. HiLo48 (talk) 00:39, 2 July 2024 (UTC) Milk does, but plant milk does not. I'm sure you're aware that this is far from the only case in the English language where modifying a term does not make the referent an instance of the unmodified term. --Trovatore (talk) 01:31, 2 July 2024 (UTC) Can't its supporters come up with an original name? HiLo48 (talk) 01:34, 2 July 2024 (UTC) Edible slurry. DuncanHill (talk) 01:40, 2 July 2024 (UTC) Samuel Johnson called it "milk" in 1755, so this is not exactly a novelty, as much as it may irritate the National Milk Producers sic for the missing apostrophe Federation and similar industry mouthpieces. --Trovatore (talk) 01:44, 2 July 2024 (UTC) "Ignorance, madam, pure ignorance" DuncanHill (talk) 01:46, 2 July 2024 (UTC) Nonsense. --Trovatore (talk) 01:50, 2 July 2024 (UTC) I'm trying to picture a milking machine attached to a plant. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:02, 2 July 2024 (UTC) That's an image the dairy industry put in your head. Look, I like milk and cheese. I have no particular animus against dairy farmers. But their behavior as an industry on this particular issue has been utterly loathsome and reprehensible. You shouldn't be doing their work for them. --Trovatore (talk) 16:35, 2 July 2024 (UTC) Which industry controls your head Trovatore? Or are you a special case, better than the rest of us? DuncanHill (talk) 16:51, 2 July 2024 (UTC) Bit of an overreact there? Everything ok? Folly Mox (talk) 11:24, 3 July 2024 (UTC) Not an over-reaction. DuncanHill (talk) 11:42, 3 July 2024 (UTC) No, that is the obvious first thought when you come across the term "plant milk" ( or any of the various types thereof). No matter how long the terms have been used, they are inherently silly. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:55, 2 July 2024 (UTC) Although EO has some info on "milk",[51] I'm not seeing anything about oats. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:09, 2 July 2024 (UTC) Meh, doesn't seem silly to me, calling a culinary substitute the same term as the product it substitutes. *Plant mammary gland secretions or *Teat-expressed baby plant nutrient colloid would be significantly sillier. Folly Mox (talk) 11:24, 3 July 2024 (UTC) So you're ok with calling chicory coffee, or margarine butter, or potato bread wheaten bread? DuncanHill (talk) 11:42, 3 July 2024 (UTC) There's plenty of precedent for naming things after other things that are similar in appearance or purpose, whether it be chicory coffee, herbal tea, laverbread, milk of magnesia, filter cake... AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 12:06, 3 July 2024 (UTC) *Apostrophe is not required. It could simply be a federation of producers; the producers don't necessarily possess the federation. 136.54.106.120 (talk) 02:16, 2 July 2024 (UTC) In that case the plural would not be needed; it would be the "National Milk Producer Federation". I know our British friends sometimes use plural noun adjuncts, but it sounds bad on this side of the Pond. --Trovatore (talk) 05:22, 2 July 2024 (UTC) Oh, and by the way the English genitive does not necessarily imply possession. That's the clamorous error, completely indefensible and I hope you won't try, made by the US Bureau of Geographic Names, when they imposed ridiculous forms like *Pikes Peak, luckily ignored by sensible people. --Trovatore (talk) 05:26, 2 July 2024 (UTC) Hmmm... I live in Kings Langley which has survived without any apostrophe since the 14th century when it was Kyngeslangley. Alansplodge (talk) 15:57, 2 July 2024 (UTC) The apostrophe was not introduced into English until the 16th century. Kings Langley is therefore too old to have used it. -- Verbarson  talkedits 17:21, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

July 2

Kenner Police Academy toys possible reissue

Are there future plans to reissue Kenner Police Academy toys, if its possible? 172.13.193.84 (talk) 15:53, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Is Kenner Products even still in business? And are there plans to produce another Police Academy movie? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:58, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm afraid not. But, there's still a chance that these toys could be reissued from a different toy company, such as Hasbro, even if its possible. 172.13.193.84 (talk) 16:01, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

The article says they were acquired by Hasbro. You could try contacting Hasbro and see if they have any such plans. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:08, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

July 3

Cambridge, Ontario

I'm trying to find historical population levels for this city. Searching has turned up sources like this, which is great, but only goes back ~20 years. The city was formed in 1973 from the amalgamation of nearby towns/villages; I'd like to know what the population was then (or thereabouts) and a decade later, say 1980-1985 or so. In an ideal situation, I'd like to see the historical population trend, but I'll take what I can get. :-) Matt Deres (talk) 13:27, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Looking back at past Canadian censuses, I find the following figures 101,429 for 1996; 92,772 for 1991; 79,920 for 1986; 76,300 for 1981; 64,794 for 1976 (needed to go through the PDF version of a poorly printed document for that one). All of these can be found online if you look for Canadian census and the year. More recent figures are in a table in the French version of the article, which I'm sure you have looked at already Xuxl (talk) 15:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you kindly. Matt Deres (talk) 20:20, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Cambridge was formed by the merger of the city of Galt with two significantly smaller places. Historical populations for Galt may be the appropriate thing to use, depending on your purpose. --142.112.148.225 (talk) 21:18, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

July 4

Publish type label on eBay?

I want to sell an appliance at eBay. Are there any concerns - privacy or otherwise - against posting a picture of the type label? ◅ Sebastian Helm 🗨 13:58, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I can't imagine any reason why you shouldn't do that, unless it reveals any personal information? You're simply supplying information about the appliance. Shantavira|^{feed me} 18:44, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Unless you take the photo with a device (eg phone) that embeds the GPS coordinates of where you took the photo in the EXIF. Then a savvy user could stalk you ;-) Commander Keane (talk) 06:38, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

@SebastianHelm: Actually ebay already thought of this and strips the exif, so nevermind. Commander Keane (talk) 06:45, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Cool! Thanks to both of you! ◅ Sebastian Helm 🗨 02:02, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

July 6

Winston Churchill cigars

Can you tell me which was the actual specific cigar that was named in tribute to Winston Churchill? I got a good friend's birthday coming up. Googling turns up with loads of spam. Iloveparrots (talk) 05:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

That would be Romeo y Julieta: The flagship vitola of the brand is named in his honour, a long 7" by 47 ring gauge cigar known as the Churchill. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 06:19, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

What happened?

If you're driving along Santa Teresa Boulevard, you'll see this along the way. It seems to be a memorial in memory of Nicole Sosa, who, if I'm not mistaken, died in a car crash. Who was she, and is there any more information on what happened? TWOrantula^TM (enter the web) 23:18, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm not finding anything in Newspapers.com. If you can find a nearby library, it's possible someone there will know. But these kinds of things will occasionally turn up for people who are otherwise not well known. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:23, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

It looks like there is something about her fatal accident at The Mercury Sun, if anyone has an online subscription. John M Baker (talk) 05:31, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Headline: "Woman killed when her SUV crashes into building in San Jose". Other than "a woman", the article does not provide further information about the victim.  --Lambiam 07:32, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

My link says she was 30 and the driver and that the accident was Nov. 18, 2022. John M Baker (talk) 13:33, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

There was a gofundme fundraiser for her son [52] and this instagram page[53] has pictures of her. Modocc (talk) 18:10, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

We have an article about this kind of thing, Roadside memorial. Cullen328 (talk) 18:26, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

July 10

Weird but totally reasonable question

How do I get my voice to sound like Hank Hill? Due to something called puberty, I think I can do a pretty good impression of him if I practice it long enough. also because I want more friends TWOrantula^TM (enter the web) 23:50, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Here is the secret:

If you want to be chill, like the King of the Hill,
Propane.
It's a flammable gas that's hard to surpass,
Propane.
Do the math, light your path, heat your bath,
Propane.

2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:9BB0 (talk) 10:12, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Hank Hill has a central Texas accent. It is very similar to the accent you will hear through central Oklahoma, Kansas, West Missouri, and up into Nebraska and Iowa. Speak from your chest, not your diaphram. It is very breathy. Then, lock your jaw. Don't use your jaw to form sounds. Use only your lips and tongue. It will make the words slur together a bit and words like "wash" and "here" become "wush" and "hur". That is the foundation of the "midwest" accent that the Taxes accent is part of. From there, you need to raise your pitch at the correct times by practicing phases he uses. Then, keep focusing on your jaw. Don't close it when saying anything ending with "ing". It is supposed to come out just "in". Don't try to enunciate your T's, they are supposed to sound like D's. If you get flustered, go into a Boomhowser accent, which is more like the Northmern Midwest and just run it all toghether. Of you REALLY want to learn to speak it correctly, just move to Texas. They'll learn you right. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 23:55, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

It may help to practice with headphones and a mike. You'll hear your voice as it sounds to others.  --Lambiam 06:03, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

July 11

Jeep engine swap

Any idea what is involved in an engine swap for a 2000-era Jeep Wrangler? No I'm not going to attempt it myself, I just want to be able to discuss it intelligently with mechanics. Other than a crane to hoist the motors and a lift to get under the car, is it basically within reach of a clueful backyard mechanic? Any idea what would make the old engine lose oil pressure when it gets hot? There is no blue smoke or anything like that, but out-of-town garage says a replacement engine is needed. Sounds drastic. A remanufactured crate engine is around $2500 which is doable (it's a fairly nice car without too many other problems) but I gotta wonder whether some simpler repair is eluding everyone. Car isn't mine, I'm asking for a friend as the saying goes. It runs fine as long as it's not under too much prolonged load. Oil pump has been replaced, which didn't help. Thanks. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:9BB0 (talk) 07:34, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

I think your chances of finding an experienced Jeep mechanic here are rather slim. You may be better off with a specialised forum like jeepgarage.org for example. Others are easliy found with a Google search/ Alansplodge (talk) 13:48, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, yeah, might try that. I'm asking more about the complexity of engine swaps in general though. Closest thing to that I've ever been involved with was a GM transmission swap, done in a friend's garage with the car up on ramps, plus multiple people muscling the stuff around. It has to be a lot easier with real shop tools. Maybe I'll check youtube. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:9BB0 (talk) 18:06, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

It is important to note if you are swapping the engine with the exact same model engine. If it isn't exactly the same, there is no telling what problems might arise that will end up costing more. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 23:48, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

July 12

Marie Van Brittan Brown

Apparently Marie Van Brittan Brown was presented with an award from the prestigious "National Scientists Committee". There are hundreds of references to support this. However I can find no trace of this body, except in said references.

• Does this body or did this body exist?
  • If so, what awards did it make? Is there a list I can consult?
  • If not:
    1. Was Marie Van Brittan Brown and/or her husband Albert L. Brown given any other award?
    2. How do we explain this in the article. "Numerous references claim ... but there is no trace of such an organisation.^{[Citation needed]}"

All the best: Rich Farmbrough 17:38, 12 July 2024 (UTC).

Perhaps the awarding organization was the National Safety Council, which issues a variety of awards, such as its "Distinguished Service to Safety Award".^[54] Someone may have made an incorrect guess what the initialism NSC stands for; others copied without checking.  --Lambiam 19:27, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Serious Facebook Issue

I can’t seem to get into a normal Facebook page. Is there anything you can do to help? The page is for Menchies Frozen Yogurt. Thank you. It just shows a generic page saying “this content isn’t available at the moment” even though I know for a fact the page is exactly as it normally is. Could you please have this checked for me? Thank you. Pablothepenguin (talk) 19:39, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

It works fine for me. This is not a problem that anyone here on the ref desk can help you with. Try again later, reboot your PC, try a different browser. And so on. --Viennese Waltz 19:53, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Do you know anyone who can help? Pablothepenguin (talk) 20:35, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

What's the URL? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:52, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Facebook page is here Pablothepenguin (talk) 21:16, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

It works for me, and I'm not even a Facebook user. It's a page full of ads about their products. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:35, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

What do I do to get access to this page again? I need to see it again. Pablothepenguin (talk) 21:52, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Did you try what Viennese Waltz recommended? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:14, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Tried on my phone. Still doesn’t work. Pablothepenguin (talk) 22:38, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

It works just fine on my Android smartphone. Cullen328 (talk) 22:57, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Is it possible they have blocked you from their page? If you log out of Facebook and can then view the page, that seems the most likely reason why you cannot view it when you are logged in.-Gadfium (talk) 23:02, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Tried it when logged out and it worked. How do I ask to have my account unblocked? I’m not sure what to do now. I also don’t understand why I am blocked, as I said nothing vulgar or offensive. I also don’t understand why Facebook can’t just tell me about a block. Pablothepenguin (talk) 23:42, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

For the record, my comments on that page were along the lines of “sounds wonderful”, and “we need you in the UK”. Pablothepenguin (talk) 23:43, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Does Facebook have a "contact us" kind of thing or a place you can go for customer support? It does seem odd they would block your user ID without telling you. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:12, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

The "owner/operator" of any individual Facebook page has the power to block anybody from that page, without any involvement by Facebook employees. I have blocked many people from my Facebook page for what I consider to be good reasons, but have no obligation to explain why. It is my page. Pablothepenguin, based on your edit history, you are highly focused on this frozen yogurt company, and are repeatedly lobbying them to expand the way that you want them to expand, as opposed to their own internal plans. If their employee responsible for their Facebook page has concluded that you are no longer a welcome presence on their Facebook page, then they have the power and the right to block you from it. Cullen328 (talk) 03:00, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Does the UK have a TV show analogous to Shark Tank? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:39, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Dragons' Den (British TV programme) Rojomoke (talk) 05:42, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

How do I reach out to them to get access back? Pablothepenguin (talk) 08:29, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Pablothepenguin, if the person or people running that Facebook page have decided that you are no longer welcome there, then there is literally nothing you can do about it, except to move on and find another hobby. Cullen328 (talk) 08:37, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Or start your own competing company, drive them out of business with your superior products, and get the last laugh. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:00, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

The problem is I did nothing wrong and they blocked me by mistake. They even liked and replied to some of my comments Pablothepenguin (talk) 09:02, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Personally, I find that hard to believe. Cullen328 has it right – if your history of contact with this company is anything like your history of comments about it on this ref desk, I'm not surprised they've blocked you. --Viennese Waltz 10:59, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

I can assure you it is true. I only ever leave short comments of a couple of words. I deserve a second change and I also believe the blocking system is unfair. I’ll explain why by reminding you of how blocks work on this very Wiki. As you may know, when a person is blocked here, they will receive a message on their talk page, and will have the ability to submit a block request. I don’t agree with the fact that this doesn’t happen on Facebook. At the very least there should be an official way to dispute a block. Pablothepenguin (talk) 11:05, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Whining about it here won't help you. Go and sort it out yourself. Nanonic (talk) 12:23, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

I will. I just need to work out what to do. I’m thinking of writing a polite letter, but am not sure what to say. Pablothepenguin (talk) 13:08, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Just dropping it...both here and there probably would be a healthy step at this point. Based on your edits on this topic here over the past several months, I'm sure you wore out their patience. People running Facebook pages don't have the same policies on assuming good faith and the like. They don't need a reason to block you. I'm starting to think a topic ban for you on discussing this company in any way on Wikipedia might be good for everyone involved. --Onorem (talk) 13:40, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

July 13

Meat preferences

Does it make sense for the same individual to prefer steaks rare and chops well-done? Is it logically rational? 102.33.34.102 (talk) 11:41, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes Nanonic (talk) 12:22, 13 July 2024 (UTC)