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April 20

Replacing LVM drives with larger drives on Linux

My question here is rather complicated.

My current computer has three internal SATA drive bays, all of which are filled. Two of them have a 6 TB drive each, running the EXT4 file system and combined with LVM into a single logical 12 TB volume. One of the partitions on the logical drive alone spans 11 TB, i.e. more than one of the physical drives. The remaining drive bay has a 1 TB drive running the NTFS file system with Windows 10 installed, which I rarely if ever use.

I am running out of space on the LVM EXT4 drives in a couple of years. I'd like to replace them with larger ones, but how do I go about this? I'd like a similar set-up as I currently have but with bigger drives, such as two 16 TB drives combined into one 32 TB logical volume. I don't have enough drive bays to connect four physical drives at once, and I think to be able to use a LVM volume at all, I need to have both of the physical drives it consists of connected at the same time. Is it somehow possible to put the old drives into some sort of USB cases and connect them as external drives via my computer's USB ports or something? JIP | Talk 16:23, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

I've used SABRENT 2.5" drive enclosures with great success. They are about £10 (or 13.7 USD/11.24 EUR) from Amazon. SABRENT also do multi-disk docking station and 3.5" cases, but obviously that is a little more expensive. I've no connection with either Amazon or SABRENT other than as a satisfied customer. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 18:05, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

What I did both times I upgraded my LVM was remove the drives completely. Put in new drives. Upgrade to the latest version of Redhat, which is what I was using on the server. Connected the old drives using a USB adapter. There are many options. The one I use plugs into the SATA connector on the drive and has both power and USB coming out of it. It is not enclosed. The drive sits on my desk and hums. Once connected, I used pvscan to check the drives to make sure they were OK. They were. My plan was to swap the drives back if not. Then, I used vgs to see the volume ID on the old drives. Then, with lvs, I could see the mounting point for the logical volumne and mount it to a directory on my new drives. I pulled over the files I wanted to keep where I wanted them (and a lot went into a temporary "old junk" directory). When finished, I unmounted and unplugged the old drives and put them in my file cabinet in case I ever need them in the future. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 16:02, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Good Open Source CMS with Open Source Themes/Templates?

I'm still writing HTML and CSS by hand (and by Python script), but a friend is "just trying to build a website", and is shopping around for a content management system. They are aplenty, and most are Open Source. But it seems to be quite hard to find decent free themes and templates - a far as I can tell not because they don't exist, but because the internet is flooded with commercial subscription offers (of various and often dubious quality). Are there some good community sites to find good free stuff? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:16, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

You haven't specified for which CMS. I would recommend Wordpress. Free themes can be found over at https://wordpress.org/themes/ Polygnotus (talk) 08:27, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, the availability of good themes one of the criteria to choosing a CMS. He has settled on Joomla now, and has found out how to hack it himself to some degree. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:58, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

@Stephan Schulz: You can use Google Trends to get an idea of the relative popularity of Wordpress vs Joomla. Or you can look at something like w3techs. I would not recommend learning or using Joomla in 2024. Note that this contains 12,118 free themes. Polygnotus (talk) 15:11, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll pass it on! --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:15, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Interesting detail on the Google Trends page: The vast majority of frequent Joomla queries is German (7 of the top 10, with the others hard to determine). It may be much more popular on this side of the pond.--Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:22, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

@Stephan Schulz: Here are the results for Germany. But if you go further back in time you see that around 2011 Wordpress overtook Joomla in Germany. Joomla used to be pretty popular in Germany, 14 years ago. Polygnotus (talk) 15:24, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

April 21

Photoshop

Hi, what is Photoshop? HovigTheEditor 17:50, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not only a community Q&A site but also an encyclopedia. See Photoshop and your question will be answered.  --Lambiam 18:58, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. HovigTheEditor 19:07, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Resolved

April 26

Tik Tok

I don't use or care about Tik Tok but for some reason I thought it was like a cross between Youtube and Twitter, where people could post and view videos using either an app or a web browser. But some of the stuff in the news about banning it depicts it as accessed purely by an app, not a browser. Is that correct? Thanks. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:6CE6 (talk) 21:02, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

About two years ago I uploaded a few videos to TikTok on a desktop web browser and it worked just fine. I haven't opened TikTok since then, so it might've changed. —Panamitsu (talk) 21:31, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia has an article about TikTok that should tell you all you need to know. Shantavira|^{feed me} 13:51, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it should, it's a pity. Is TikTok mainly used as the app version rather than the browser version? Does the browser version lack the tools for video recording and adding sound effects and music? Do web users face other annoyances such as all their videos being automatically cropped and letterboxed? Is there an issue around compatibility with Apple? When our article says "app", does it sometimes really mean "the app and the web version" and sometimes not?

I don't know of good references to cite for any of these questions, but searching around gave me hints.  Card Zero  (talk) 23:36, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

I have never used TikTok but it sounds like the web version lacked a mobile version originally [1]. It was only perhaps on 2021 or 2022 that they began to introduce a decent PWA with mobile support and bring the UI etc over to their PWA plus also supporting larger screens with a decent UI [2] [3]. Also although I don't have a source for this, while some like the Chrome Unboxed writer might like TikTok on a larger screen device, TikTok somewhat akin to Instagram is extremely mobile centric with their weird aspect ratio etc intended to be viewed on mobile devices. (Somewhat similar to Instagram.) Note that while the screenshots might have been in landscape, I can't help wondering if they mostly watch TikTok with the screen portrait even on their ChromeBook, something which might be possible there and with some laptops but definitely difficult on many desktops. In any case, mobile targeted seems to fit with the demographic they've had success with. And while plenty of people hate the often fairly app centric mobile ecosystem where everything seems to want to be an app, and I mean an actual app rather than a PWA, even if the app is only a glorified web front-end; I'm not sure this the case for most of their audience who might prefer an actual app. (Also decent video apps are often a little better than just glorified web frontends.) In other words while TikTok web might be a real thing including possibly a decent PWA, there's a good chance this is something only a tiny portion of their audience use. Also while TikTok might potentially have a decent PWA nowadays I suspect it's still the case that content creation features on the web are still much more limited [4]. And AFAIK TikTok is still a place where a lot of the popular content is just something someone quickly shot on their phone and did some basic editing via the TikTok app. Not a place like Youtube etc where a lot of the popular content nowadays may be edited to a high degree in Adobe Premier or other professional video editing programs, often even by professional editors. So the probably more limited creation features on the web is probably a big deal for many creators. (To be clear, both exist on both platforms, we're talking matters of degrees. Remember also that TikTok videos tend to be short, so while there may be major creators who do such editing elsewhere, there might not be enough of them producing enough content. Plus even if they were it might get repetitive or boring if that's all people see. One thing many media sources do report on is TikTok's algorithms being extremely effective at serving people content they enjoy. This BBC article on TikTok in India is possibly illustrative of wider trends in TikTok content [5].) Nil Einne (talk) 06:22, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

April 30

Cursor hovering over the thumbnail at YouTube

On my YouTube subscription list, if the cursor hovers over the thumbnail of a video, the video starts playing (without audio) inside the thumbnail. When I click on the video, it then starts playing at the point where the thumbnail got to. That means if I don't notice that the cursor is hovering over a video, when I open it, it might start 15 minutes in, and I have to stop and restart the video to watch from the beginning. This has got to be one of the most useless and annoying features I've ever seen on a website. Is there any way to turn it off? Can I go to Settings and click something so it stops doing that? —Mahāgaja · talk 11:36, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Go into your settings (click on your icon), go into Playback and Performance, turn off Video Previews. It will turn it off for 30-60 days. Then, it tends to turn back on. I believe that it turns back on because Youtube counts those previews as views, increasing viewership counts. Similarly, I turn off the shorts. They turn off for 30 days and turn back on again. I also turn off autoplay. That stays off for longer, usually, but turns back on eventually. Again, having it autoplay increases view counts. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 12:01, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! I turned off video previews. I had no option for turning off shorts, but they annoy me less now that they're segregated into their own section of the subscription page rather than being lumped in with the full-length videos, like they used to be. I've had autoplay switched off for years and it's never turned back on. —Mahāgaja · talk 12:12, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

April 20

Xia's five-body configuration

One of my favorite webcomics, Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal, once made a joke about Xia's five-body configuration (comic here). I went looking for what it was talking about and found our article on the Painlevé conjecture, to which I added a redirect-with-possibilities. As an aside, the article could use some TLC; the most glaring problem is that it introduces variables without saying what they represent.

Anyway I was trying to figure out where this infinite energy was supposed to be coming from. My best guess so far is that the five bodies are idealized as point masses, which means that the gravitational energy released as you let two of them approach one another grows without bound. This of course would make them black holes in our actual universe, so that energy wouldn't be available, but in the universe of the comic, I guess this wouldn't be a problem (I've never thought very deeply about what happens to general relativity as c approaches ∞, so I'm not sure about that). But in any case there's no new energy appearing that wasn't there before, so the comic's claim that "the universe collapses" seems wrong.

No, really, I actually do have a sense of humor. I just want to know if I've understood this correctly. Does anyone have a different understanding? --Trovatore (talk) 19:50, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

O/T That article rather overeggs the pudding. The various proofs are for the 2d case ie planar. Perhaps it is obvious that if it works in 2d it'll work in 3d. Greglocock (talk) 21:22, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not too sure what it means to "overegg the pudding" but I was not interpreting the configuration as planar; if that's correct then I've misunderstood the drawing. Can you point me to why you say that? --Trovatore (talk) 21:43, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

It means exaggerating the utility of . The repeated use of the word planar is what I was getting at.Greglocock (talk) 05:45, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

The last section of the AMS article by Saari and Xia has this: "While we now know that noncollision singularities exist, several mysteries remain. Any partial listing has to include whether n = 5 is the cut-off for this surprising behavior, or whether the four-body problem can propel particles to infinity in a finite time. Can, for instance, Anosov’s suggestion be carried out? Are there planar examples with small n values?" This implies IMO that Xia's construction is non-planar. I think the sketch of the construction also implies this: the orbits of the pair of point masses m₁ and m₂ are said to be parallel to the x-y plane and highly elliptical, while m₃ moves along the z-axis. The orbits of the pair m₄ and m₅ are also orthogonal to the z-axis, with their major axes shown at an angle to those of m₁ and m₂ in the accompanying figure.  --Lambiam 12:52, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Energy borrowed from the potential energy shed by point masses approaching each other closely but not, in the finite time, "arbitrarily closely", can only be finite. To reach infinity their distance has to become less than any positive number, which means it is zero. Doesn't that qualify as a collision? What is worse, in Jinxin Xue's 4-body solution all four bodies are said to escape to infinity in a finite time. Do they scoot off in four different directions?  --Lambiam 13:18, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I believe the idea is this: as you approach the time of the singularity, the separation between some pairs of masses approaches zero, but the positions of those masses diverge to infinity. If you consider a collision to be when two masses have identical, finite coordinates, then that never happens in this scenario. --Amble (talk) 22:59, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

How hard would it be to construct it from satelitees? Zarnivop (talk) 22:41, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

You could put satellites in the right pattern at some starting time, but they wouldn’t actually behave as predicted by Xia’s model. That’s because the model requires perfect point masses in a Newtonian universe affected only by one another’s gravitational pull. Real satellites have other forces acting on them, have negligible influence from each other’s gravity, and are not point masses. And of course, real satellites aren’t in a Newtonian universe. —Amble (talk) 02:25, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

April 23

Fulgurite: vandalism or proper fixings?

While adding a brief historical context section to that lemma I noticed some former changes of another IP which I doubt to be correct. Please could somebody countercheck, since I have no access to the referenced Elsevier source documents from which the data has been obviously originally taken. Here the difflinks in question:

• Special:Diff/1218613828 Section or not a section?
• Special:Diff/1218613911 Greater or less than 100.000 Volts? Grounding or grounding substrate?
• Special:Diff/1218614055 Second half of a sentence was removed. Does that make sense?
• Special:Diff/1218614423 Negative or positive? Discharge or charge?
• Special:Diff/1218614559 100 million volts or only 100 volts?

I would tend to revert these unverified changes, they look illogicaly to me, but wanted to ask here first.

Many thanks! --92.117.130.94 (talk) 05:06, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

P.S.: Maybe there is a need to improve my wording or grammar in the historical section I have added, since I'm not an English language native speaker, sorry if I've used unusual or strange wording. --92.117.130.94 (talk) 05:12, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing. I've reverted these edits because they look like vandalism to me. HansVonStuttgart (talk) 08:13, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

April 26

Mass-radius relations of stars and mean molecular weight

Are there analytical expressions that describe how the radii of white dwarfs change with mean molecular weight? JoJo Eumerus mobile (main talk) 19:06, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

See White dwarf#Mass–radius relationship. The radius goes down fairly quickly as the mass increases. NadVolum (talk) 20:13, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

The radius depends on the mean molecular weight through the number of electrons per unit mass N. Ruslik_Zero 20:27, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Thx. Is there a similar approximation for nondegenerate matter like brown dwarfs? JoJo Eumerus mobile (main talk) 13:56, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Brown dwarfs don't really change in radius as their mass changes. Radius stays nearly constant as mass increases from the onset of significant self-compression (about Saturn's mass) to the onset of hydrogen burning (turning into a red dwarf at about 75 Jupiter masses). So they'd all more or less be one Jupiter in radius – you already see the low end of this in the Solar System, with Jupiter not being much larger in radius than Saturn. Double sharp (talk) 18:10, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

@Double sharp: Does the radius change with mean molecular mass, though? JoJo Eumerus mobile (main talk) 13:07, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

In terms of their major components, wouldn't brown dwarfs all resemble Jupiter in composition? Particularly so since many would have depleted their deuterium through fusion by the time we observed them. So I kind of doubt mean molecular mass would vary that much between them to produce noticeable changes. But admittedly I'm guessing here. Double sharp (talk) 05:46, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Nope - brown dwarfs around Black Widow Pulsar-like pulsars may be stripped down remains of stars and thus consist mainly of helium (or carbon, oxygen etc.). Brown dwarfs formed from white dwarf debris (around black holes) or kilonova ejecta may also contain other elements. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:08, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Interesting: you learn something new every day, I suppose! OTOH, I guess most brown dwarfs would still be directly produced and thus indeed resemble Jupiter in composition. Anyway, it doesn't seem like the companion to the Black Widow Pulsar has a known radius, so the question may be unanswerable for now. Double sharp (talk) 10:14, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

April 29

Origin of a formula constant

I have discovered by an accurate empirical method that a constant needed in a predictive mathematical formula is 0.986093(7). In the SI metric system, the constants generally turn out to have simple origins, e.g., 2, pi, 4/3 times pi and the like, or fundamental constants such as the speed of light c, which I believe is not relevant here. Can anybody spot the components of 0.9860937 ? I have not been able to deduce it. ```` Dionne Court (talk) 14:35, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

$2^{-0.{\overline {02}}}$, or, if you like, $1/{\sqrt[{99}]{4}}$. —Amble (talk) 16:37, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

OK, I'll bite. How did you get that? Greglocock (talk) 00:36, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Nothing too clever — I just guessed there should be good matches with $n^{-1/p}$ for some integer n and p. I tested n by brute force, and for each n, used $p=-\log(n)/\log(x)$, rounded to the nearest whole number. There are many possible answers, with n=4 as the first one. Although I took the (7) at the end to be an uncertainty level, and looking again, that may not be what OP intended. —Amble (talk) 03:51, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I included brackets around the 7 to indicate that due to random experimental error, the value is centred around 7 but could be anything. Thus you could infer that the 3 before it is accurate (if I made no error in procedure).

The n^-p form doesn't help much because I cannot imagine any reason why it should be so. Its a bit like how we were taught in school to use 22/7 as pi - there is no reason for it, it is just a coincidence that 22/7 evaluates to equal pi to 3 places. It gives no insight into WHY pi equals 3.1416..... ```` Dionne Court (talk) 11:30, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Right. The n^-p form is a silly example. The point is that you can produce a matching value in an infinity of ways. Without more information about the underlying process, there's no possible way to know which (if any) may be relevant. The notation I'm familiar with uses parentheses to indicate the standard uncertainty in the final digit (or digits), as shown in the NIST page here: [6]. --Amble (talk) 17:18, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

You may be interested in this inverse symbolic calculator, though it doesn't seem to recognize your constant. Staecker (talk) 23:31, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I love that calculator. I wish I had known about it before. Thanks. ```` Dionne Court (talk) 00:56, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I used to work with a lot of predictive formulas and nearly all of them had constants. They were calculated by using large populations and working out a best fit regression formula. The resulting constants were not based on pi or the speed of light or anything recognizable. They were based on average biological processes of humans, such as how many creatinine is cleared by the bladder on average. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 12:40, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

The problem I have been working on is not a biological process, as you may realise from the six-digit precision of the constant. It is within the realm of physics. In physics one seeks to discover why the constants are what they are and thus understand the process.

In complex biological process, the constants could be any weird thing, as dozens or hundreds of sub-processes are involved. In physics, the constants are usually very simple combinations of integers, pi, squared or rooted, trig identities, whatever. ```` Dionne Court (talk) 02:29, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

That formula above uses less symbols when printed than the given constant, I think that's pretty impressive. Too many of these approximations are worse 22/7 = 3.1428 with four symbols is only just about shorter if one says the 28 is close to 16. NadVolum (talk) 17:15, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

355/113 gets pi to six figures past the decimal point, which is eight symbols if you count the 3 and the period. The fraction is only seven characters if you write it without spaces. --Trovatore (talk) 23:23, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Of course π itself is just one symbol.... --Trovatore (talk) 23:29, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I think they told us in high school to use 22/7 so that we could more easily spot where algebraic cancellation could be used by dumping unnecessary precision. If it was about saving digits, they could have just told us to memorise 3.142. ```` Dionne Court (talk) 02:36, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I remember problems were often rigged to have a factor of 7 that you could cancel upon approximating pi as 22/7. With 3.14 that would be much harder. Double sharp (talk) 05:48, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

April 30

Tokyo Toilet smart glass defect

Hi all! I was looking through a machine translation of this press release PDF, which seems to indicate that the smart glass used for the walls of one of the toilet designs for the Tokyo Toilet project is locked into the opaque state during months where there's a drop in temperature. This document includes the word "Defects" in the URL, which I assume refers to this design only being operational during certain times of the year as a solution to some unspecified problem, but I'm struggling to find out why/how exactly the temperature affects this toilet's smart glass functionality. It's specifically tricky because trying to perform a cursory search on how temperature affects smart glass seems to mainly pull up info about passive thermochromic smart glass, but other articles and footage of the switch toggle have led me to believe that this is an active and electrically switchable smart glass setup, so unless I'm mistaken, that thermochromic info wouldn't be relevant here. Basically, I'm just looking for any leads as to what's going on here lol thanks! ~Helicopter Llama~ 16:14, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Sounds like it's a cholesteric liquid crystal panel or something similar. These were briefly fashionable for electrically switchable opaque/transparent wall panels back in the 1990's. The company I worked for had it on one floor of their high rise head office. They were notorious for not working at low temperatures (< 10 C) and failing completely at high temperatures (> 35 C)

Another possibility is the method used in auto-switching variable darkening welding helmets - I don't know how they work, other than knowing they are battery powered and are controlled by a light sensor. ```` Dionne Court (talk) 02:12, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

May 1

Sub-brown dwarf detection (in a way)

If a copy of Jupiter (with a copy of all the moons) was a rogue planet freely floating in space, how close would it have to be to the Solar System for us to be able to detect it? And how close would it have to be for us to be able to detect the Galilean moons? Double sharp (talk) 05:58, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

There was one such search using WISE satellite. Its conclusion is that there is no Jupiter-like body closer than 82,000 au to Sun, no Saturn-like body closer than 28,000 au. Ruslik_Zero 20:40, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

It is possible of course to use a bigger telescope but they are usually have quite a narrow field of view. Ruslik_Zero 20:42, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Exoplanets are being detected throughout our Milky Way galaxy whose center is about 27,000 lightyears distant and potentially in other galaxies using Gravitational microlensing. Some physical parameters of exoplanets can be estimated but not whether they have moons. Philvoids (talk) 23:50, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Dinosaurs and the future

Did dinosaurs know the future? In particular, did they know that they will eventually be killed millions of years later? They probably did not know that there will be humans in the future. But perhaps, they could already know what will happen to them in the next few million years. GTrang (talk) 16:22, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

There's no evidence that dinosaurs ever developed human-like intelligence and intellect, to the point of being able to go beyond the mere needs of immediate survival (find food, hunt prey, escape from predators) and make more existential questions like that. Cambalachero (talk) 17:24, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Gary Larson postulated the possibility:[7] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:30, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Humans do not know what will happen to humankind in the next one hundred years.  --Lambiam 06:13, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Lemmings do. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 14:30, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

In a thousand years we might have Idiocracy or might be starting to expand to the stars. Who can say. I think this comes under crystal ball speculation. NadVolum (talk) 17:15, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

May 3

Why Bronze Age and not Brass Age?

Why was bronze so much more widely used by the ancients than brass? Was it because zinc was so much harder to come by than tin, or was it because it was so much harder to make high-quality brass than bronze, or was it because bronze had more desirable material properties than brass? 2601:646:8082:BA0:F13B:E84E:494B:CA04 (talk) 04:40, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

The principal reason is probably that stated in the lede of Brass,

"Brass is not as hard as bronze, and so is not suitable for most weapons and tools [my italics]. Nor is it suitable for marine uses, because the zinc reacts with minerals in salt water, leaving porous copper behind; marine brass, with added tin, avoids this, as does bronze."

Zinc seems to have been less familiar (and available?) than tin in the Western ancient world, but more widely used further East. However, its use even there seems to have been more often 'ornamental' that practical, probably because of its poorer mechanical properties.

My suspicion is that the fabled metal Orichalcum (Greek oreikhalkos, "mountain copper", but in Latin Aurichalcum, "gold copper") was a form of what we would now classify as brass. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.144.58 (talk) 06:10, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

There was no 'Brass Age' because, for many years, it was not easy to make brass. Before the 18th century, zinc metal could not be made since it melts at 420ºC and boils at about 950ºC, below the temperature needed to reduce zinc oxide with charcoal. In the absence of native zinc it was necessary to make brass by mixing ground smithsonite ore (calamine) with copper and heating the mixture in a crucible. The heat was sufficient to reduce the ore to metallic state but not melt the copper. The vapor from the zinc permeated the copper to form brass, which could then be melted to give a uniform alloy.

Brief Early History of Brass. Alansplodge (talk) 16:51, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

13 year old me melted a zinc coin in a stainless spoon in a gas flame. I removed the iron the pot or pan lies on, tried to find the flame part of max spoon glow-in-the-dark (spoon incandesced orange) and waited to ensure getting very close to thermal equilibrium. Could I have boiled zinc? The copper electroplate probably didn't melt (post-'82 US pennies are this composition) so I stirred with a straightened paper clip and tried to heat a glob on the clip for a less heat-robbing zinc holder but didn't reach max temp as I didn't want it to drip on the gas holes. A whole penny in the gas ring's bowl didn't seem to boil but did puddle. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 22:37, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Reflex to prevent food falling

Sometimes when a piece of food falls from my hands during eating, I have a sort of rapid reflex to prevent it from falling on floor - either by catching or deflecting it to stay on the table. Is it a sort of catching reflex in physiology? 212.180.235.46 (talk) 18:49, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

It's more than just food (as you'll find if you ever find yourself responsible for a small child), though I'm not sure it's a reflex in the technical sense. We have a List of reflexes and the closest thing I can find there is the palmar grasp reflex, which is about how babies and other infant primates grab onto things in an automatic way. This isn't quite the same thing, though. Reflex or not, the human urge to grab things that are falling can be very strong, even when the cause is hopeless or harmful; there's no shortage of videos online of people attempting to right tipping vehicles or catch falling objects they really ought not attempt. I haven't found an appropriate article on this yet, though. Matt Deres (talk) 20:10, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I think that this does not qualify as a physiological reflex, since the pathway is not a reflex arc but involves the whole kaboodle of the visual or tactile perception of a valuable item slipping away, the ensuing cognitive recognition of impending disaster, and finally an appropriate response of fine-tuned firing of motor neurons to (hopefully) save the day, all processed in the neocortex.  --Lambiam 20:32, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

takeoff/landing distance graphs

1. I understand that weather stations don't give density as often and runway air's always close to 29g/mol but wouldn't density altitude be more accurate? A drone could fly much easier in a xenon balloon than a hydrogen balloon but a kg/m³ in Earth gravity is a kg/m³ in Earth gravity. So can I just calculate the density altitude from common weather station things like meteorological pressure/altimeter setting and geometric altitude and use that on the ISA+0°C graph? There are formulae and calculators for that online. Maybe they don't want to make the generic jetliner owners manual even longer (they're hundreds of pages) with a graph for every plausible Fahrenheit when it says it's unofficial but I don't know where to read official manual(s). It says each airline gets customized manuals. With the generic manual most temperatures don't have a graph and it doesn't have colder than standard atmosphere or very hot.

2. How do I adjust airport weather station temperature to the temperature that affects runway length used? The thermometers are in a white wood louver a bit lower than large plane wings, they're probably on grass, not significantly heated by jet engines, it should be hotter when it's hot and possibly colder when it's cold. If it's 40 or 50°C in the airport weather station in the local all-time high at 4 meters ground altitude and 40°N and 30°N respectively what's the best estimate and worst case density altitude for concrete runways and asphalt?

3. How do they make these graphs? Do they test fly them, measure the rear gear touch length (plus wheelbase if landing) and add safety factor(s)? How much? Or is it the entire distance from first penetration of a few tens of feet above ground (some precise value) with the lowest part of the plane to foremost front wheel ground touch and rearmost rear wheel ground touch to last penetration of a few tens of feet above ground (another precise value) with the lowest part of the plane or some part of the plane when a certain climb rate or slope is reached if that's later? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 22:39, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

April 20

Imagine one tinder gender has a max 100 right swipes per day and the other have X max right swipes per day. Would it be possible to find the value of X needed to make them have equal amount of matches with just that information?

Imagine one tinder gender has a max 100 right swipes per day and the other have X max right swipes per day. Would it be possible to find the value of X that would be needed to make sure they have equal amount of matches per day at average with just that information I am presenting here or you would need internal data to solve this mathematical problem?

75% of tinder is male, 25% is female.

Woman swipe right 7% of time while man swipe 40%

Woman match with 33% of man they swiped right while men match with 2.5% of person they swiped right.

Woman vote at 200 profiles per day while man do with 137. 179.134.97.227 (talk) 17:34, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with tinder, but it seems that the question is about a selection process for strictly binary and straight users, in which each of the two genders is only presented candidates of the other gender. Each candidate presented is a match for female users with probability 0.07 × 0.33 = 0.0231 and for male users with probability 0.40 × 0.025 = 0.0100 .

Then the expected number of matches for a female user when presented 200 candidates equals 200 × 0.0231 = 4.62, while that for a male user when presented 137 candidates equals 137 × 0.0100 = 1.37 .

So far so good, but where does the maximum of 100 come in if a woman can do 200 swipes per day?

Given match rates p_f and p_m for the two genders, the expected numbers of matches for users of these genders equal n_f × p_f and n_m × p_m, in which n_f and n_m stand for the numbers of candidates presented to the respectively gendered users. To make these expected numbers equal requires achieving a ratio between these numbers of candidates such that

n_f : n_m = p_m : p_f.

For the data supplied, this means,

n_f : n_m = 0.0100 : 0.0231 = 100 : 231 .

So if female users are presented 100 candidates, male users need to get presented 231 candidates to achieve the same number of matches, to wit:

100 × 0.0231 = 231 × 0.0100 = 2.31 .

 --Lambiam 20:33, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

At tinder, people are presented with a "random" (not exactly), person, they can swipe left (not like) or swipe right (like), if male A like female B and female B like male A they match and can start to talk. The 200 swipes means at average, the woman rates at this an day (like OR dislike) 200 people. Max amount of right swipes would be the amount of likes they would be able to give before not being able to give likes for that day. Woman receive way more matches than man at this apps for various reasons, the question here is if that information presented at the question, would be possible to find what would need to be the limit at the amount of likes a man can do (assuming woman can do 100 per day) to make sure the amount of matches is the same per day at average.179.134.97.227 (talk) 21:09, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

A question about your terminology. If male A likes female B and female B likes male A, which of the two "receives" the match? It seems to me that if every match is between two users of different genders, then each gender will always have the same number of matches as the other gender. A difference, if any, can only be in who initiated the process that led to the match being established.  --Lambiam 21:18, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

"If male A likes female B and female B likes male A, which of the two "receives" the match? It seems to me that if every match is between two users of different genders, then each gender will always have the same number of matches as the other gender."

Man A and female B receive the match. A gender can have different numbers of matches at average, one example, if man 1 likes woman 1 and 2, man 2 likes woman 1 and 2, man 3 likes no one and woman 1 likes man 1 and woman 2 likes man 1. Thats man 1 having 2 matches and other man having no matches, thats 0.66 matches at male side and 1 match at average at the woman side.179.134.97.227 (talk) 21:30, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Let M stand for the number of matches under some procedure. In your example M = 2, since we have the two matches man 1 ⇆ woman 1 and man 1 ⇆ woman 2. Let, furthermore, u_f and u_m denote the number of female and male users. In the example, u_f = 2 and u_m = 3. Then the average number of matches for the two genders are M⁄u_f and M⁄u_m. In the example, we get 2⁄2 and 2⁄3. One way to get the two averages equal is to make sure that M = 0, for example by not allowing any right swaps at all. The only other way does not involve the process for indicating preferences: make sure that u_f = u_m.  --Lambiam 18:22, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

April 22

How are arbitrary hemispheres defined on theWGS84 ellipsoid?

With spheres there's only 1 right answer, there's also formulas that can be used to find points 0.5π radians from another point, is there a formula for the line with half the ellipsoid surface area on each side? Is there a formula for the line where an infinitely far Star of Bethlehem and an anti-Star of Bethlehem at the other end of the ellipsoid normal line would have equal zenith distances ignoring refraction and geoids? Are these lines the same? How far apart can they be? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:30, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Unless an ellipsoid is a sphere (which the WGS 84 reference ellipsoid is not), no portion of it is a mathematical hemisphere. Any plane through its centre divides it though into two equal (congruent) parts. Usually the plane will be a meridional or the equatorial plane. In more general geodetic systems the equator and meridians, although not ellipses, also lie in a plane and can be used for a fairly fair cutting into two parts, which however will normally not be congruent. Calling the two parts "hemispheres", although not correct in a strictly mathematical sense, is nevertheless conventional.  --Lambiam 19:11, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes but that's the easy way out, hemispheres centered on the equator or pole are exactly zero percent of all possible centers. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:56, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Is division by any plane through the centre not general enough?

The sight lines to a point on the celestial sphere and to its celestial opposite are parallel. So are the directions to the respective zeniths from a given place on the ellipsoid and its antipodal place. Therefore the angular distances are the same.  --Lambiam 11:03, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't know how to do the center plane. Either finding points of surface tangency from the point of surface perpendicularity or the point of surface perpendicularity from 2 surface points on the plane. There seems to be a u and a v involved I keep seeing u and v but don't know what that is, or if that's needed when the plane is not arbitrary but has 1 of 3 defining points fixed to the ellipsoid center. I stupidly dropped out before learning u, v and pseudo-delta swirl. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 22:31, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

If they are boldfaced u and v, these variables probably stand for some 3D-vector (x, y, z).  --Lambiam 16:51, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Likely two such vectors orthogonal to each other. —Tamfang (talk) 02:57, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I must admit to being intrigued by the idea that the Star of Bethlehem might have been arranged by angels using WGS 84! However as far as I can see there's just ocean at the antipodal point for the birth of Damien Thorn. Pehaps we're safe for a while yet ;) NadVolum (talk) 19:42, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

If one wanted to start a rival franchise, one could look for holy sites (holy to some cult) in the dark patches of this map. —Tamfang (talk) 02:52, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I just want to make orthographic projections, not start a religion. Or equivalently, find star of Bethlehem umbras for anywhere like a lone star over Texas. I'm not sure I didn't make a mistake interpreting the orthographic projection formulae I found. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 04:58, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

The normal on the ellipsoidal through Bethlehem won't go through the center of the Earth and so won't go though the antipodal point. NadVolum (talk) 20:04, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter though cause the idealized celestial sphere/astronomical coordinate system is infinitely far, the lines to the star from anywhere on Earth would be parallel. It would matter for the "ranking all points by distance and picking the nearer half" way as an extremely flattened ellipse could have the (geographic, not geocentric) latitude minus 90 be only a few miles away (plus 90 in the southern hemisphere) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 22:15, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

April 23

Fibonacci numbers and pineapples

The article on Fibonacci numbers mentions the pineapple, but I am unable to discover when, in the literature, this was first discussed. Later in the aforementioned article it states, "In 1830, K. F. Schimper and A. Braun discovered that the parastichies (spiral phyllotaxis) of plants were frequently expressed as fractions involving Fibonacci numbers." Given that the discussion of pineapples was extremely popular at this time in the early 19th century, one would expect it to be found within that time frame. However, I cannot find anything until the mid to late 20th century, possibly starting with Onderdonk 1970. Does anyone know when Fibonacci numbers were first discussed in reference to the pineapple, and if it was before the 20th century? As it stands, 1830 would fit absolutely perfectly into the pineapple timeline I'm working on, but I can find no supporting evidence for this idea. Viriditas (talk) 23:17, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Pineapples are mentioned as an example in a long list of diverse plant species. In other words there's nothing specifically notable about pineapples in relation to Fibonacci numbers. Further on the article also mentions daises and the image shows a chamomile. I think the reason pineapples are mentioned is because someone was able to find a citation for them, and perhaps also because many people can find them in their local supermarket. I remember counting rows on a teasel flower head and coming up with Fibonacci related numbers, but I doubt it's mentioned a lot in the literature. It seems to be a general property of Phyllotaxis, or the way plants grow, though there are exceptions, and the "Repeating spiral" section of that article mentions more about Fibonacci numbers. The article mentions Kepler having pointed out the presence of Fibonacci numbers in nature; that was 400 years ago. I don't know if Kepler ever saw a pineapple though. --RDBury (talk) 02:02, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I’m aware of that. What’s notable in this context is that pineapples were introduced to Europe and it led to a great deal of interest. I’m tying to trace the discussion of pineapples throughout each discipline as it arose within a specific 150 year time frame of interest before cultivation and mechanization led to wider availability of the fruit. One of the reasons so many different disciplines discussed pineapples is because they were considered new, difficult to impossible to grow in cold climates, and didn’t have a previous known history in Europe, giving rise to people in different fields using them as examples in their domain-specific literature. It would be kind of like talking about the Internet in your field of expertise in the 1990s. It was somewhat new and different for the general public and people were trying to apply it to their knowledge base. For example, both Leibniz and Locke wrote about pineapples in the context of philosophy because it was considered unique in taste and unobtainable to the common person due to cost, so it represented an idealized version of an idea that they could use in their work and would attract attention. My post on this topic pertains to pineapple within this timeframe, of which the year 1830 fits. It was at the time, coincidentally, that discussion about Fibonacci numbers and plants arose. My question is whether pineapples were discussed in this context at this time and used as an example, not whether it is of any importance to the math itself. Viriditas (talk) 02:17, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

The botanists credited with the discovery were Karl Friedrich Schimper and Alexander Braun. Schimper appears to have been the first (in 1830) to describe an observed phyllotactic pattern in term of the Fibonacci sequence (to wit, for the rotational angle between leaves in a stem) and his friend Braun described the next year a Fibonacci pattern in pine cones. I found no evidence these gentlemen or any other 19th-century scientists ever studied the patterns of pineapples. As reported here, the number of spiral rows of fruitlets in pineapples was studied "as early as 1933" by Linford, however, without referencing the Fibonacci sequence.  --Lambiam 16:45, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Do you know where I can read their original work? I assume it is in German somewhere? It turns out that the history of the word "pineapple" has a lot of of confusion. "Pineapple" once referred to pine cones in English, while other languages used variations on "ananas" for pineapple, such as German. Viriditas (talk) 20:36, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

@Lambiam: I just found something interesting. This is unlikely to be true, but there is an implausible chance that Schimper & Braun were mistranslated: "Two names will exist side by side, and only after a time will one gain the upper hand of the other. Thus when the pineapple was introduced into England, it brought with it the name of 'ananas,' erroneously 'anana,' under which last form it is celebrated by Thomson in his Seasons. This name has been nearly or quite superseded by 'pineapple,' manifestly suggested by the likeness of the new fruit to the cone of the pine. It is not a very happy formation; for it is not likeness, but identity, which 'pineapple' suggests, and it gives some excuse to an error, which up to a very late day ran through all German-English and French-English dictionaries; I know not whether even now it has even disappeared. In all of these 'pineapple' is rendered though it signified not the anana, but this cone of the pine; and not very long ago, the Journal des Débats made some uncomplimentary observations on the voracity of the English, who could wind up a Lord Mayor's banquet with fir-cones for dessert." (On the Study of Words, Richard Chenevix Trench, 1893, p. 254.) Viriditas (talk) 20:51, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Schimper 1830 and Braun 1831 are independently written articles. I have not looked at Schimper's article, but as described he only discusses the placement of leaves. Braun being an accomplished botanist, he would not have used the term Tannenzapfen (pine cone) as an ambiguous name for the fruit of Ananas comosus, and his article furthermore identifies specific species or at least genera of conifers (Weisstanne = Abies alba; Lerchen = Larix; Rothtanne = Picea abies) whose cones he studied.  --Lambiam 05:42, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. This is even more confusing given that pine cones were also called pineapples. Viriditas (talk) 20:24, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

top of a pine cone

• I just uploaded this photo of the top of a pine cone. Can anyone get the Fibonacci numbers from it? I've seen drawings were they show the Fibonacci numbers, but they may be a little idealized, or maybe they had a better example. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 06:36, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

The photo looks good to me. The two numbers in the sequence are 8 (spirals going right), 13 (spirals going left), from 0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55... Viriditas (talk) 07:12, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

It is really hard for me to count around the spirals. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 23:55, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

I understand. What I do to help me focus is to open the image in full screen mode. Then, I place the index finger of my left hand on whatever spiral I designate as #1. Keeping my left finger on the screen on the location of the first spiral, I then take the index finger of my right, and use that as a pointer, so when I eventually end up back at the first position, I don't lose the count, which is how I get 8. Then I do it backwards, resulting in 13. My vision is very poor, so this is the only way I can keep track of the spirals. Viriditas (talk) 00:06, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

References

April 26

duality vs. conjugacy

I noticed that Isbell conjugacy and Isbell duality have the same meaning. So, I would like to know the difference in meaning between duality and conjugacy in mathematics. Also, I found Category:Duality theories, but what is the field of mathematics called Duality theory? However, since Baez (2022) said that the Isbell conjugacy is an adjoints rather than a duality of the category, so I changed the category to Category:Adjoint functors. Thank you, SilverMatsu (talk) 03:54, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

The original duality occurs in projective geometry, see Duality (projective geometry). At some point people noticed that the axioms of the projective plane where the same (or equivalent) if you swapped the undefined terms "point" and "line". So any theorem in projective geometry can be transformed to a dual theorem by changing the roles of points and lines. The new theorem may simply be a restatement of the original theorem as in Desargues's theorem, but sometimes it's not as in Pappus's hexagon theorem. The result is that you often get two theorems for the price of one proof. You can define a dual category for a given category by reversing the arrows, but category theory was invented long after projective geometry so that's not the original meaning. You can also define the dual curve of a plane curve, the dual space of a vector space, the dual polytope of a polytope, etc. As far as I know there is no all-encompassing "theory of duality", just the custom of using "dual" to describe when mathematical objects seem to occur in pairs in some way. Calling something a dual usually implies that the dual of the dual is in some way identifiable with the original object, but this is not always required. For example the dual of a dual vector space is not identifiable with the original vector space unless it's finite dimensional. Duality does not always exist, for example there doesn't seem to be a useful concept for the dual of a finite group, though you can define one for abelian groups. And sometimes there is a duality that's not called that, for example cohomology can be viewed as the dual of homology. I don't think there is a formal distinction between a "dual" and a "conjugate", but usually a conjugate is the the result of applying an automorphism of order two. For example a complex conjugate is the result of applying the automorphism a+bi → a-bi. Again, this is more of a naming custom than a formal mathematical concept, and there is (apparently) some overlap. I'd say a "conjugate" is usually used when the two objects live inside the same structure, and "dual" is used when you're talking about two different structures. For example the dual of a plane curve lives in the dual of the plane in which the original curve lives. Category theory blurs the distinction between an object and a structure so I can see how the distinction is rather meaningless there. --RDBury (talk) 07:12, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for teaching me so kindly. I'm going to re-read some of the references, keeping in mind what you've taught me. --SilverMatsu (talk) 16:02, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Oblate spheroid

I thought of Googling orthographic projection ellipsoid and found these, did I interpret everything right?:

ν=a/(1-e²*(sinΦ)²)^1/2 (why not square root?) x=(ν+h)*cosΦ*cosλ y=(ν+h)*cosΦ*sinλ z=(ν*(1-e²)+h)*sinΦ This seems to be a simple spherical to Cartesian converter with latitudes (Φ) "massaged" so it's not slightly wrong (eccentricity²=0.00669437999014 so not much massaging). Then they convert that to topocentric Cartesian with a matrix I can't solve (now I know why galactic Cartesian's UVW!) but it seems like they also say surface points are U=ν*cosφ*sin(λ-λ_O) V=ν*(sinφ*cosφ_O-cosφ*sinφ_O*cos(λ-λ_O))+e²*(ν_O*sinφ_O-ν*sinφ)cosφ_O where _O means "of the topocentric origin". Did I get that right? If so then I can set an initial guess point at or about 0.25 circumference from the W-axis, use the formulae to find its U and V in "W-axis place"-centered coordinates and the test point is of course √(U²+V²) meters from the W-axis and the part of the ellipsoid with the most meters without being too far from the W-axis-test point plane is the limb of the Earth from infinite distance. The worst-case scenario for how spindly a pie the test points have to be in would be looking at ~the 45th parallel limb with the W-axis in the equator plane. The geocenter depth increases roughly quarter mile from 45.5N to 44.5N so ~56 meters poleward shortens the limb to W-axis line segment by 8 inches which is how much Earth curves in a mile. Azimuth accuracy needed increases "exponentially" with limb coordinate accuracy desired though so 10 miles accuracy would be a lot more than 10x easier than 1 mile. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 06:24, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

April 27

"Distribution diagrams"

Distribution of (term node) sharing factor for a population of theorem proving runs

I'm trying to show the distribution characteristics of a numerical value in a (finite) population. To do so, I sort the values in ascending order, and then plot the feature values over the position of the value in the sorted sequence, as per the attached example. I'm probably not the first with that idea - is there a standard name for this kind of diagram? And/or is there a better way to visualise such data? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:36, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

If you switch axes (or turn your head sideways) this is the graph of a typical Cumulative distribution function. Perhaps it's better to call it a cumulative frequency instead of a distribution since you're plotting values observed and not the theoretical probability density, but the idea is the same. In particular, your graph resembles the second image shown in the article only turned sideways. The (usual) probability density is simply the derivative of the cumulative distribution function, so if you can estimate the derivative in your diagram that may give a better visual representation. The usual technique is to divide the range in to intervals, and then graph the number of occurrences in each interval. It seems to me that there might be a name in economics for the "sideways" version (enonomists seem to do a lot of things sideways), but I don't know what it would be. --RDBury (talk) 14:41, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

It is also customary, when plotting a cumulative distribution, to let the (now vertical) axis mark relative values in the range from 0 to 1 (or, equivalently and perhaps more commonly, from 0% to 100%) instead of an absolute ranking like from 1 to 7794 or whatever the sample size may be.  --Lambiam 15:06, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

See also Empirical distribution function and Quantile function. —Amble (talk) 00:13, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

May 3

Can Carmichael number be Lucas-Carmichael number?

Can Carmichael number be Lucas-Carmichael number?

Also, varying the signs, there are four different sequences for similar numbers:

1. squarefree composite numbers k such that p | k => p-1 | k-1
2. squarefree composite numbers k such that p | k => p-1 | k+1
3. squarefree composite numbers k such that p | k => p+1 | k-1
4. squarefree composite numbers k such that p | k => p+1 | k+1

the 1st sequence is Carmichael numbers, and the 4th sequence is Lucas-Carmichael numbers, but what are the 2nd sequence and the 3rd sequence? Are there any number in at least two of these four sequences? If so, are there any number in at least three of these four sequences? 61.224.150.139 (talk) 05:07, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

According to Lucas–Carmichael number, it is unknown whether there are any Lucas–Carmichael numbers that are also Carmichael numbers. GalacticShoe (talk) 05:52, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

2. The sequence is OEIS:A208728, and it starts $15,35,255,455,1295,2703,4355,6479,9215,\ldots$

3. The sequence is OEIS:A225711, and it starts $385,2737,6061,6721,17641,24769,25201,\ldots$

GalacticShoe (talk) 06:21, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Do all numbers in any of these four sequences except 15 and 35 have at least three prime factors? 61.224.150.139 (talk) 06:41, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes. You can show that:

1. If $p-1,q-1|pq-1$, then $p-1|q-1$ and $q-1|p-1$, implying $p-1=q-1\Rightarrow p=q$, which is disallowed.
2. If $p-1,q-1|pq+1$, then $p-1|q+1$ and $q-1|p+1$, implying either $p=q-2$ or $p=q+2$ (since they can't be equal.) The rest of this proof is left to the reader since I don't feel like writing it down, but based on the fact that $n|(n+2)^{2}\Leftrightarrow n|4$, it can be shown that $pq=15,35$ only.
3. If $p+1,q+1|pq-1$, then $p+1|q+1$ and $q+1|p+1$, implying $p+1=q+1\Rightarrow p=q$, which is disallowed.
4. If $p+1,q+1|pq+1$, then $p+1|q-1$ and $q+1|p-1$, implying $p\leq q-2$ and $p\geq q+2$, which is not possible.

GalacticShoe (talk) 07:52, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

In order for a sequence to be in both 1. and 2., this would require that all prime factors $p|k$ satisfy both $p-1|k-1,p-1|k+1\Rightarrow p-1|2\Rightarrow p=2,3$. The only squarefree composite number that is only composed of $2,3$ is $6$ which can easily be seen to not be in either sequence. Similarly, 3. and 4. would require all prime factors $p|k$ to satisfy both $p+1|k-1,p+1|k+1\Rightarrow p+1|2$ which does not hold for any primes $p$. Since 1. and 2. cannot coexist, nor can 3. and 4., this means that no number occupies three or more of the four sequences. GalacticShoe (talk) 06:25, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Factorial & primorial on wikipedia

I know the factorial notation n!. Recently I cam across 5# which I was unfamiliar with. Not knowing its name, (primorial), it proved hard to track down. I searched in wikipedia and Google for "n#" which seemed like the best bet. Both converted it to "n" and reported stuff about the 14th letter of the alphabet. I then thought maybe it is related to factorial, so I looked at wikipedia factorial (n! redirects to factorial on wikipedia, so that works if/when you don't know the term "factorial".)

So is there a way of making n# findable on wikipedia? If so how? -- SGBailey (talk) 21:21, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Search for "#" and find Number sign#Mathematics. —Kusma (talk) 22:25, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

April 19

FRF and USD exchange rate, 1922

According to Michelin Guide:

Michelin decided to charge a price for the guide, which was about 750 francs or US$2.15 in 1922.

(The source is dead, and the archive page didn't work for some reason.) What was the exchange rate during this period? I highly doubt the almost-350-per-$1 rate claimed here, since the highest denomination of current French postage stamps was 2F — that's ½¢ US if the exchange rate is right, which would make the lower denominations of stamps (all the way down to 1c) utterly impractical. Would it perhaps be 7,50F = $2.15, or about 3,50F = $1? Nyttend (talk) 04:53, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

The Federal Reserve Bulletin from 1914 to the modern day can be found online at FRASER, and may be of interest (pun only semi-intended.) Here's the section for the 1920s. While all the economic jargon escapes me, I imagine there might be something related to exchange rates with the franc in there. GalacticShoe (talk) 05:11, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Of especial relevance methinks, there are sections on foreign exchange rates in each of the 1922 bulletins I've looked through. The December 1922 bulletin in particular has a graph indicating that the exchange rate with the franc hovered between 30-50% of par, which is listed above as 19.3. I am unsure as to what units these are. If it's F/$, then at 30-50% that's between 5-10 F/$, which is off from 3.5. If the units are $/F then that's between 0.1-0.2 F/$ which still is off from any number resembling 3.5. GalacticShoe (talk) 05:34, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

From our article French franc: "After two centuries of inflation, it was redenominated in 1960, with each new franc (NF) being worth 100 old francs." So a 2 NF postage stamp would have been a 200 F stamp before redenomination. The article has a graph of the value of the old French franc in 2007 Euros for the period from 1907 to 1960, equating the value of the 1922 franc with 1 euro. Charging the equivalent of 750 euro for the guide would have been excessive also in 1922. A chart here equates one franc in 1922 with 8 to 9 US dollar cents, which makes US$2.15 in 1922 more like 25 francs.  --Lambiam 06:32, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Here we have a reliable contemporary source giving the price as 7 francs.  --Lambiam 09:49, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Bookmark this website which gives you everything [8]. 2A02:C7B:100:AA00:D9ED:5C02:4C7B:F3D7 (talk) 10:55, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

I just checked the Federal Reserve Bulletin for January 1922. On page 114 the "Par of exchange" is given as "19.30" (confirming Lambiam) and the "Average for December" is 7.8416. On the next page is the graph Lambiam describes, which shows that in December the French franc traded at 40% of par. 2A02:C7B:100:AA00:D9ED:5C02:4C7B:F3D7 (talk) 11:12, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

The French Franc lost nearly 35% of its value against the US dollar during 1922 (from highest monthly average rate to lowest), from 10.8 per US$1 in April to 14.6 in November. That should be reason enough to adjust a dollar price. <https://canvasresources-prod.le.unimelb.edu.au/projects/CURRENCY_CALC/>DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 19:33, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

April 20

"The Paris disaster"

It is mentioned in a poem of the same name by Annie Curwen, published in 1899 (on wikisource, on s:Page:Poems_Curwen.djvu/133 and s:Page:Poems_Curwen.djvu/134).

I have no idea what it is, and was not able to make it correspond to anything.

If it helps, the "Ushant" in the poem is a reference to the SS Drummond Castle and its sinking off that island (also a poem about that in the same collection, s:Page:Poems_Curwen.djvu/63 and s:Page:Poems_Curwen.djvu/64)

Could someone find what it is? — Alien333 (talk) 17:51, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

"fiery cross" and "blackened ashes" suggest a fire. I've found Bazar_de_la_Charité#Fire_of_1897 with 126 dead. Not sure whether we can prove that this is the one that the poem is about. --Wrongfilter (talk) 18:14, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Seems the most likely candidate - it was widely reported in the Anglophone press as "The Paris Disaster" - see this Australian example, but I found the same usage in newspapers from New York, Hong Kong, New Zealand and Wales. I couldn't find any other event remotely comparable in that timeframe. Alansplodge (talk) 21:33, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

The Bazar de la Charité fire was the first thing that popped in my mind as well when I read the question. It was a huge story at the time, not just because of the number of dead, but also because the majority were well-to-do society ladies. Xuxl (talk) 13:48, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, appears to be solved. Thanks to everyone! — Alien333 (what I did & why I did it wrong) 12:13, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

April 21

Early human migration

a simple reference for human migration 180.150.255.58 (talk) 14:28, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

You could start with Early human migrations. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:15, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

There is also simple:Early human migrations.  --Lambiam 18:48, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Whatsit

Somewhat common in the 13th century, Christian churches had an attached bin for human bones of village ancestors. I think it was called "char-something". Anybody know what it is (not an ossuary)? -- 136.54.106.120 (talk) 19:07, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Charnel house --Viennese Waltz 19:10, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

That's it -- thanks! --136.54.106.120 (talk) 19:18, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

April 23

Saint George's body rediscovered!

The following passage comes from Robert Graves' Lars Porsena, or the Future of Swearing and Improper Language (1927) pp. 6–7:

It has been stated with detail and persistence that in the late summer of 1918 an Australian mounted unit sensationally rediscovered the actual bones of St George – not George of Cappadocia but the other one who slew the Dragon: they were brought to light by the explosion of a shell in the vault of a ruined church. The officer in command sent a cable to the Dean and Chapter of Westminster inviting them to house the holy relics. After some delay, the Dean and Chapter formally regretted the serious over-crowding of their columns; for, of course, though they could not very well mention it, St George was a bloody German. So the saint was lost again by the disgusted Australians, this time beyond rescue. Or so one version of the story has it. The other version, more attractive if less authenticated, suggests that the Dean relented later and permitted the relics to be smuggled into the Abbey under the thin disguise of The Unknown Warrior, thereby avoiding offence to anti-Popish feeling.

Can anyone find any evidence that this bizarre story really was going the rounds in 1918, a symptom perhaps of war hysteria like the Angels of Mons, or did Graves make the whole thing up? He had a very lively sense of humour in his earlier days, as the whole of Lars Porsena shows. Also, why was St George a bloody German? --Antiquary (talk) 10:09, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

The version Graves tells in Occupation Writer has the grave being discovered in Palestine, and the reason for his non-translation being that it would require ceremonies too Popish for the century, and tacit admission of the dragon myth. He doesn't mention the Unknown Warrior. See here. DuncanHill (talk) 10:54, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't know if you're aware, but Australians have long a reputation for, um, making up stories; pulling your leg; telling porkies. I suspect those bloody Australians were just telling a Furphy. HiLo48 (talk) 11:06, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't believe that. They were probably often wrongly understood by unattentive listeners, who would have been the ones writing down the anecdote. --Askedonty (talk) 11:13, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I think I've found it, Palestine Exploration Quarterly October 1917, 'Notes and News', page 150 has the following:

The Daily Telegraph of the 23rd August contained a lengthy description by Mr. W. T. Massey of the discovery by the British forces of a richly-paved Christian church. The discovery was made by the Australians at Shellal, between Beersheba and Khan Yunus, and therefore on the main road from Jerusalem to Egypt. The keenest interest was aroused among the men themselves, and the utmost care was taken to safeguard it. The work was done under the direction of the Rev. W. Maitland Woods, senior chaplain (Church of England) of the Anzac and Mounted Division, and the party were often subject to the unwelcome attentions of the enemy's guns and suspicious aeroplanes. A fragmentary inscription relates that "this temple with spacious--(? foundations) was built by our most holy--(? bishop) and most pious George--in the year 622 according to--(? the era of) Gaza." Under the inscription were found the bones of the saint; his identity is uncertain, and the original suggestion that the founder was St. George himself does not bear investigation. The whole mosaic consisted of some 8,000 pieces of mosaic, of which not one stone was lost; and one of the features of Mr. Massey's account is the description of the careful and ingenious methods by which, in the midst of all the military preparations, this piece of archaeological labour was effectively completed. Some further account of the discovery may be anticipated later. It may be added that a letter in the following issue of The Daily Telegraph recalled the fact that George is among the commonest and most beloved of names in Eastern Christendom, thus adding to the other objections against the identity of the buried saint; but "when our troops have advanced another forty miles northwards towards Lydda they may come, perhaps, within the very patrimony of the soldier patron of England and of many other countries."

Which I rather think would be the genesis of Graves's yarn. DuncanHill (talk) 11:20, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

And more info here, here, and here. Search for Shellal + St George, or Shellal Mosaic and you'll find lots more. DuncanHill (talk) 11:37, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that has to be it, you've solved a mystery I've vaguely wondered about for decades. It's a shame that the body turns out not to have been St George's, but hardly unexpected. I'm still wondering what Graves' German reference means though. --Antiquary (talk) 12:10, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

George is one of the Fourteen Holy Helpers, popular amongst German RCs, and is sometimes claimed as Germany's patron saint. There's a gert statue of him in Berlin. DuncanHill (talk) 12:20, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

And Robert von Ranke Graves would have known that. Thanks, and happy St George's Day! --Antiquary (talk) 12:40, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

It might have been more interesting if they had found the bones of the dragon alongside. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:01, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

What evidence can establish that a find is of the remains of the one and only true George of Lydda? Some dragon bones buried alongside the holy man?  --Lambiam 13:49, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

April 24

Ottoman Armenian flag

The article on Ottoman flags shows distinct civil ensigns for Latins, Jews, Muslims and Greeks (with black, yellow, green and blue stripes, respectively) used through the 18th century; is there any record of one for Armenians or other Oriental Orthodox? 71.126.57.87 (talk) 05:32, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Not on the Flag of Armenia article. If there was no significant Armenian nautical commerce, then the Ottomans would not have perceived a need for such a flag. AnonMoos (talk) 09:47, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Note that all our coverage of these flags is entirely unsourced at the moment (on the image files themselves as well as on all the pages where they are used), so we can't really safely assume there even was such a thing as these ensigns in the first place. A pointer can be found on the fotw.info website to some 19th-century flag compendium listing some of them (though not the Jewish one), and I've seen a few contemporary 18th-century illustrations that seem to confirm the use of the Greek (red-and-blue) one at least. No information on how far back the existence of these flags can be traced - the claim that they are valid for the entire time of the Ottoman Empire since 1452 seems quite dubious. I haven't seen anything about other Ottoman nationalities such as the Armenians either. Fut.Perf. su 10:19, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Some info on these two FOTW pages (which don't 100% agree with each other): Greece under the Ottomans, Ottoman empire... -- AnonMoos (talk) 17:09, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

If Tesla shareholders re-approve Elon Musk's compensation package will he pay the original California taxes or now the 0% Texas tax?

Title Tikaboo (talk) 14:48, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

We din’t offer legal opinions. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 20:15, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

What makes you think he'll pay any taxes? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:41, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Info on statistical research papers / essays about blocking of Wikipedia users?

Looking for information on statistical research papers / essays about blocking of Wikipedia users in general, category wise and in polarized / contentious topic areas.

Just contemplating to include such information, while mentoring, to convince users to encourage them in learning constructive editing practices and deter them from attraction of destructive editing practices. Bookku (talk) 15:01, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

You could look through the archives of the Wikipedia Signpost's "Recent Research" summaries. There doesn't seem to be an overall listing of all "Recent Research" articles, that I can find... AnonMoos (talk) 17:16, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

COMPETES Act and negative news about China

A questions to everybody who is educated about the American law:
Is there any fact which preclude that a bill like the COMPETES Act allowed the gouverment to spend 500 million dollars on media. Would it be allowed by the US constitution that the gouverment spends money on media which makes the a certain news?
I think, maybe it would be unconstitutional or something.
I just look for information how debunk the claim and starts to ask myself. 2A02:8071:60A0:92E0:410D:99D9:F99:A812 (talk) 21:10, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

There's very little about it on Wikipedia (and of course it has nothing to do with China), but during much of the 19th century, U.S. administrations subsidized newspapers they favored (i.e. with a congenial political tendency in their coverage) by awarding them government printing contracts. At various times Francis Preston Blair and John Weiss Forney ran newspapers with lucrative federal printing contracts. AnonMoos (talk) 01:24, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

The United States directly operates a news network from the federal budget, the Voice of America. —Amble (talk) 04:00, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

From that article: "As of 2022, VOA had a weekly worldwide audience of approximately 326 million (up from 237 million in 2016) and employed 961 staff with an annual budget of $267.5 million", so that accounts for about half the $500m on its own.

Of course, we have no way of knowing how much is spent by the CIA and other 'black operations' for similar purposes, but it won't be negligible.

The fact that these expenditures are known or reasonably presumed suggests (though does not prove) that there can't be a Constitutional reason preventing them, or someone would have called "foul" before now. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.144.58 (talk) 04:44, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

April 25

Outfit associated with voters of British parties

Hello,

what kind of outfit is typical with voters of specific British poltical parties respectively?

Kind regards Sarcelles (talk) 05:16, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Derby hats and canes? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:39, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I mean the general unconspicuous outfit. Sarcelles (talk) 07:06, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

There isn't really one, unless you want to get into correlated stereotypes (someone dressed for a shooting party is more likely to vote tory; someone in their nurse's/train driver's uniform is less likely to), or a suit with a tie in the party colour, which politicians will often wear. We don't go in for MUKGA caps. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 09:23, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Rosettes are worn mainly by politicians seeking to be elected and their campaign staff and volunteers, but I don't know any reason why an enthusiastic supporter of a political party couldn't wear one. Up through the 1930s, there were clothing items that mostly proclaimed a specific class identity (flat cap for workers, top hat for upper and upper-middle classes), but I'm a little skeptical that there's any simple and reliable correlation between clothes and politics today... AnonMoos (talk) 17:01, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

The Public Order Act 1936 prohibits political uniforms. DuncanHill (talk) 18:08, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

The question was not about uniforms. --Viennese Waltz 18:50, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

It was about outfits associated with political parties. A political uniform is an outfit associated with a political party. DuncanHill (talk) 18:55, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

And… if enough of those in a particular political party all wear the same outfit, then that outfit becomes a party uniform (even if that “uniform” consists of nothing more than wearing khakis and a red polo shirt). Blueboar (talk) 20:56, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I always liked the idea of "Black Shorts" in a PG Wodehouse novel... AnonMoos (talk) 01:45, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

shooting party is more likely to vote tory; someone in their nurse's/train driver's uniform is less likely to), or a suit with a tie in the party colour, which politicians will often wear. We don't go in for MUKGA caps. This is the minority, who does so. I wanted to know about the majority of voters. Sarcelles (talk) 05:08, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

The majority of voters don’t vote. Blueboar (talk) 12:39, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

"The majority of voters don’t vote", Not true for national elections in the UK, but correct for local elections. See here. Xuxl (talk) 13:34, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

If they don't vote, are they voters? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:46, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

I think we're talking about eligible voters. (As distinct from the illegible kind.) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:55, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

In my opinion, there is no such thing as a "typical outfit" relating to a particular political party in the United Kingdom. Voting along the lines of social class has not bee clearly defined since the 1980s (see Essex man, Islington set and Red wall for example). British people tend to dress rather similarly to everyone else in Western Europe. Alansplodge (talk) 12:44, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

No, of course there isn't! I don't know where the questioner comes from, but he may be asking if at election time we all go round in gaudy clothes featuring screenprints of the blown-up heads of party leaders, as in sub-Saharan Africa and elsewhere. We don't. I suppose a study might be done of lapel badges, and tie or dress colours worn by the policians themselves, but this rarely extends to the voters; at the moment the Ukrainian flag seems the most popular for badges. Johnbod (talk) 13:28, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your answers. Screenprints of the blown-up heads of party leaders are typical examples of such outfits, but not the general pattern. Sarcelles (talk) 22:45, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

April 26

Lockheed D-21 Operational History

The article for the Lockheed D-21 supersonic drone, along with most other sources I have read, states that only four operational missions were flown by this aircraft over China as part of a program called Senior Bowl, and none of the four were successful. Two crashed, one was lost when its parachute failed, and the fourth was destroyed when the Navy ship tasked with recovering the film capsule accidentally ran over it.

However, I have recently come across a book which claims that two of the operational D-21 missions were successfully recovered. The book contains an excerpt of an interview with a Lt. Col Alfred Crane, who worked with classified spy satellites and drones during the Cold War, in which Crane described processing two D-21 film capsules that had been recovered after missions over China.

I have been able to independently affirm through other sources that the book's author, Lloyd Spanberger, was involved with developing film from spy planes and satellites at Westover Air Reserve Base during the Cold War, so his accounts are likely genuine. If this information is true, it would require a major re-write of the D-21's Wikipedia article, but without anything more to go on I do not want to make any changes yet. So what should I-- and Wikipedia as a whole-- do? 135.135.227.26 (talk) 02:04, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

If the book were regarded as a Reliable source, you could at least include text to the effect that "According to the book . . . [etc.]"

However, the ISBN (as indicated here) shows that it is published through XLIBRIS, a self-publishing platform, and therefore by the author with no editorial control. Even if other sources seem to confirm that Lloyd R. Spanberger was indeed involved in affairs as you state, and that the other (admittedly copious) details of the book's co-contributors check out, a self-published work is going to be hard to affirm as 'Reliable'.

Spanberger's accounts may be genuine, but an individual's value judgement is not good enough for Wikipedia. To what extent have you considered that intelligence operations notoriously surround themselves with false information to cover up secrets (such as real sources of information being still-undiscovered foreign agents), and that the book, or even Spanberger's or Crane's existence, may be a manufactured part of such an effort? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.144.58 (talk) 03:35, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what purpose fabricating such information would serve, though. The book was published in 2014, and all official US government records pertaining to the D-21's operational history were declassified in 1994. While I stress that this is only my personal assessment, I don't see what the author would have to gain from falsifying such information 20 years after it was already made public and anyone could look it up and a coverup would no longer be necessary.

I am aware of Wikipedia's policy regarding reliable sources, and that this book currently does not meet the standards of one. However, all of the other information contained in the book is factual, covering such things as the failed tests of the digital photography system on the SAMOS satellite and the development of an infrared camera for the SR-71. For this one piece of information to be the exception would be unusual to say the least. While I will refrain from adding it to the article for the time being, I feel like there is no reason not to take this information at face value. 135.135.227.26 (talk) 05:05, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

On the one hand, Spanberger – who I'm sure does exist! My caveat was a hypothetical regarding the inherent unreliability of information defense and espionage spheres – might be considered a subject expert; on the other, the self-published nature of the book throws up caution signals – why did a mainstream publisher not take it up?

On reflection, I suggest you do use and cite it, but ensure you hedge the material with "according to Spanberger", "Crane states" and the like, and make the self-published nature of the source explicit. At worst, some other editor will revert and you can discuss it further, per WP:BRD. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.144.58 (talk) 16:45, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I reached out to the Seattle Museum of Flight, which has a D-21 on display, and asked them for their opinion on the material. They considered it to be potentially reliable. 135.135.227.26 (talk) 21:03, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

What is Pierre Poilievre's stance on VIA HFR?

Did Poilievre state whether or not he would continue to support VIA HFR? Félix An (talk) 02:45, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

According to the Conservative Party of Canada's official policy platform (see here): "We support rail infrastructure across Canada, including innovative high-speed passenger rail where warranted. This would ease conflicts between passenger and freight trains, reduce highway congestion and GHG emissions, and promote national unity and inter-provincial trade." and "The Conservative Party supports the capacity expansion of existing rail-based transportation infrastructure across Canada in order to secure tidewater port access and increase international market access for Canadian manufacturing, processing, agricultural, and natural resource exports." These can be found in paragraphs 66 and 67 of the linked document. Xuxl (talk) 13:39, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Of course, a non-specific statement like that does not necessarily mean they would support this particular project. --142.112.220.50 (talk) 03:47, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Columbus

Our articles on Columbus say little is known about his early life and that his original voyaging journals have been lost. This seems odd to me, considering his oversized role in history. What are the current explanations for these two missing components of his life? Viriditas (talk) 20:46, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

No one bothered to write it down at the time? Blueboar (talk) 20:54, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't really add up. We have extensive historical records going back thousands of years. But suddenly, the biography and journals of one of the most influential explorers in European history goes missing. Viriditas (talk) 20:59, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

But he was only widely understood to have been influential some time after the fact. At the time, he was just another adventurer, with a murky past, operating with a degree of secrecy to protect both his own and his patrons' benefit, in an era where everybody from personal to State level was trying to steal their rivals' trade secrets.

Historical records may be extensive, but they are very, very far from being comprehensive. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.144.58 (talk) 21:10, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. I think the secrecy component explains the missing journals and biographical backstory. Can you recommend any good sources that go deeper into this? Viriditas (talk) 21:11, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Nevermind, I see it is discussed at origin theories of Christopher Columbus. Viriditas (talk) 21:16, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Almost nothing is known of Verrazzano's early life, who discovered New York Harbor April 27th, 1524 (April 17th as Gregorian calendar not invented yet). It's not even known if he really was eaten by tropical cannibals or not. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 04:49, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

But suddenly, the biography and journals of one of the most influential explorers in European history goes missing. What do you mean by "suddenly"? I don't think this is a case of important historical documents "suddenly" "going missing". More likely they weren't considered important enough at the time to preserve. Young Columbus wasn't an important person at all, and the importance of older Columbus (and his voyages) wasn't understood until later. Iapetus (talk) 09:18, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Giving legal advice

Legal advice says the following:

In the common law systems it is usually received from a solicitor, barrister or lawyer; in civil law systems it is given by advocates, lawyers or other professionals (such as tax experts, professional advisors, etc.).

Does this mean that in your typical common-law jurisdiction, advice from a tax expert (or other non-lawyer expert in a field touching on the law) is not considered legal advice, while comparable advice from a comparable expert in a civil-law jurisdiction is considered legal advice? Is it a matter of definition of "legal advice"? I would expect professional advice from such experts to be comparable from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, regardless of a jurisdiction's legal system. Nyttend (talk) 21:39, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

In general, only qualified lawyers (who may locally be known by another term), admitted to practice in a given jurisdiction, can represent a client in a court case in that jurisdiction, whether the system is common law or civil law. Based on the cited references, giving legal advice (as defined in our article) while not a legal professional (a "nonlawyer") is considered "unauthorized practice of law" in many or perhaps all US jurisdictions. I don't know to what extent this is the case in other jurisdictions. Advice on how to file one's tax return is not by itself legal advice.  --Lambiam 16:52, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Also, I think the terminology used is a bit clunky. Here in the UK there are "solicitors" and "barristers" which are roles you attain after a specified amount of study and experience: whereas "lawyer" is a generic term for anyone practicing law. So it's wrong to say "solicitors, barristers or lawyers" because solicitors and barristers are lawyers. And there is no mention of notaries public, nor of legal executives. Conversely, the USA is also a common law jurisdiction* - probably the world's biggest - and there they do not (so far as I know) have solicitors, but the favoured term is "attorneys", a word which doesn't appear in the quote at all. AndyJones (talk) 12:42, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

*Correcting my comment, the USA is - of course - a collection of jurisdictions most of which are classified as common law. AndyJones (talk) 12:45, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

April 27

Types of Religions

I am looking for a list of types of religion. Along the lines of: monotheism, polytheism, animism, natrualism, etc. I'm trying to find a good starting point for looking into these lesser known types of religion. However, all I can find are lists of specific religions or disconnected pages of types with no single page that lists all of them. I remember there used to be such a page, years ago, when I previously looked this information up, but for the life of me, I cannot find it. Phoenix-Inanis (talk) 15:29, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Check the category called Philosophy of religion. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:34, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

The category Religious faiths, traditions, and movements and its subcategories may also be helpful.  --Lambiam 17:04, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, I'll look into these! Sorry for the late reply, I thought I would've gotten an email notification. Phoenix-Inanis (talk) 01:52, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not send email notifications. --Viennese Waltz 11:56, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

You can subscribe to a page section, and/or add the page to your watchlist, and then set your Preferences to get an email notification. Mitch Ames (talk) 11:59, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. The last time I checked, that functionality wasn't available. Mind you, that was over 10 years ago. --Viennese Waltz 06:50, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

April 29

Understanding Foreign funding of US universities

Recently came across conflicting mentions about Foreign funding of US universities in some media reports. Didn't find enough info this WP article section. Wish to understand foreign funding issues in brief. Bookku (talk) 04:59, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

That's about funding by U.S. government entities. What you want is Qatari involvement in higher education in the United States... AnonMoos (talk) 17:04, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I came across some news reports about students protesting against University funding by Israel too. Idk verifiability. But seems various overseas countries interested in influencing US academics. Bookku (talk) 03:19, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

The Israel-relevant articles will have titles such as "Academic boycott of Israel" (I'm really not interested in looking them up), and will not be about funding in the same sense as Qatar. A movement headed by people such as Mona Baker, who received the rare distinction (for a pure academic) of being condemned by the UK Prime Minister and Parliament, yet who some people on Wikipedia still claim is a reliable source... AnonMoos (talk) 06:55, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

White House Correspondents' dinner by both POTUS and VP

Hi. I was watching the White House Correspondents' dinner[9] and noticed that both the POTUS and VP were there.

I've only watched a few of these dinners, and to my (very poor) recollection, none of them both the POTUS and VP attend. It was explained to me that this is due to security concerns.

1. Were there another White House Correspondents' dinner in the past 30 years where both the POTUS and VP attended?

2. Were there some sort of past security policy (albeit a flexible one) where both the POTUS and VP attending was discouraged?

3. Does the entertainer get advanced notice of the VP's attendance? In a few of the previous dinners, some of the jokes were based on the VP not present. For example: "Is [VP's name] still Vice President? Cuz' if not, I'm down to like: 'Good night and God bless America.'" Some of these joke wouldn't work if the VP was there. OptoFidelty (talk) 17:13, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

See article Designated survivor... AnonMoos (talk) 18:22, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

• 1) This article (not sure how reliable) says: "it'll be the first time in seven years that a president, vice president and both spouses are each present at the star-studded event". That can't have been 2017 because Donald Trump chose not to attend, but this article has a picture of VP Joe Biden arriving at the 2016 dinner, when President Obama was also present and spoke. Alansplodge (talk) 21:12, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

• 3) Don't know, but a good comedian can improvise. Alansplodge (talk) 21:12, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Nixon leaving White House

Nixon leaving the White House

This might be a bit of a stupid question, but I have to ask it anyway. Here is the famous photograph of Richard Nixon leaving the White House after the Watergate scandal.

Which one is Richard Nixon? JIP | Talk 19:13, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

On the right with hand stretched out. Look for the famous nose. Johnbod (talk) 19:26, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

User:JIP, are you familiar with the annotation feature on Commons? I've now annotated both presidents and their wives. Nyttend (talk) 19:32, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your replies. Yes, I am familiar with the annotation feature. Thanks for the annotations. JIP | Talk 20:15, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't see the anotations. However, Johnbod has it right, and facing him is Gerald Ford. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:33, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Look the image up directly in Commons. The annotations don't show on Wikipedia. JIP | Talk 19:48, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not seeing them on Commons either. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:26, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I am. When my mouse pointer is on the picture, yellow boxes appear around some of the heads. Move the mouse pointer into a yellow box and the name of the owner of the head appears. DuncanHill (talk) 14:33, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Aha! So that's the trick. Thank you! ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:05, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I guess those beyond them are the Nixon daughters and their husbands (Cox, Eisenhower)? —Tamfang (talk) 23:26, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

• The fact that there are people who don’t instantly recognize Nixon makes me realize… God, I’m getting old! Blueboar (talk) 15:46, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

It beats the alternative! DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 23:08, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Fifty years, you know … (I was a bit startled when I first found myself saying “I haven't … in fifty years”!) —Tamfang (talk) 23:28, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

But why is he trying to shake hands with Lenin? --Trovatore (talk) 23:38, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

There must be a joke in there somewhere. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:02, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I think it's that Lenin and Ford had similar hairlines. —Tamfang (talk) 23:29, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

April 30

Volunteer (naval rank)

The Master's mate article says:

In 1824 two further grades were also introduced, consisting of master's assistants and second-class volunteers. These corresponded to midshipmen and first-class volunteers respectively in the executive line. These corresponded to midshipmen and first-class volunteers respectively in the executive line.

I tried to find *any* mention on-wiki regarding the "First Class Volunteer" and "Second Class Volunteer" ranks. The nearest I could come up with was Volunteer-per-order. But that article suggests that the rank was phased out in 1732, which is *long* before 1824.

Does anyone know more about the First-Class and Second-Class Volunteer ranks, or have a decent (ideally less than book-length) source with more information? I'd also be grateful for information about the "Master's Assistant" rank mentioned in the Master's Mate article, fwiw. -- Avocado (talk) 01:11, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

If anyone finds information that can be added to Master's mate, it should also be added to Passed midshipman, which mentions the first- and second-class volunteers. Nyttend (talk) 06:48, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

There were the Royal Naval Coast Volunteers and the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve. -- AnonMoos (talk) 07:02, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! Those articles say those orgs were instituted in 1853 and 1859, though. What would a first-class/second-class volunteer be between 1824 and 1853? -- Avocado (talk) 12:19, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I have asked for assistance from the sages at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history. Alansplodge (talk) 14:50, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Ooh, good call -- thank you! -- Avocado (talk) 16:59, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I came across these volunteer ranks myself just a few days ago. I am still trying to understand them. However, if you search in en:s:A Naval Biographical Dictionary for "Fst.-Cl. Vol" and "Sec-Cl. Vol" you will find entries for many officers that started at these ranks. From Hill To Shore (talk) 17:04, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I found some sources on First Class Volunteers! Most of them even look reliable:

• https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help/trafalgarancestors/glossary.htm: "This was the rating that replaced boy first class and was given to 'young gentlemen' training to become officers."

My reaction: "boy first class" looks like it'll be a difficult term to research online!

• https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095548366: glossary entry for "captain's servant"

The name that used to be given to boys entering the Royal Navy at about the age of 12, before they became midshipmen. The custom of allowing post-captains to take such ‘servants’ into their ships derived from the older apprenticeship system. Such servants or followers did no menial work since they were aspiring officers. They were accommodated in the gunroom under the general supervision of the gunner before graduating to the midshipmen's mess in the cockpit, and thence on promotion to the lieutenants' wardroom. The name was changed in 1796 to volunteer, first class, boys of the second and third classes not aspiring to the rank of commissioned officers. Unlike King's Letter boys, who were nominated by the Admiralty, a captain's servant was a personal follower of a post-captain, taken on board to oblige relatives or friends.

• https://repository.lsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3355&context=gradschool_theses: an entire master's thesis on the topic that I haven't yet dug into besides a keyword search and skimming a couple paras, but will probably be an excellent source and might help turn up further sources
• https://academic.oup.com/histres/article/94/266/806/6375003?login=false on a tangentially related topic turns up this footnote:

On young gentlemen, see S. A. Cavell, Midshipmen and Quarterdeck Boys in the British Navy, 1771–1831 (Woodbridge, 2012); S. Cavell, ‘A social history of midshipmen and quarterdeck boys in the Royal Navy, 1761–1831’ (2 vols., unpublished University of Exeter Ph.D. thesis, 2010); and Wilson, Social History, ch. 1.

"Wilson, Social History" appears to refer to: E. Wilson, A Social History of British Naval Officers, 1775–1815 (Woodbridge, 2017)

I'll plan to read that thesis and start mining these for a little more info for our articles. And would of course appreciate any collaboration if others are also interested.

I may also be back with more questions later about Second Class Volunteers, and ... Third Class, which that Oxford source suggests also existed.

Maybe someone else can access the sources that aren't online?

Also ... opinions on where this info should live? Maybe expand Young gentlemen and add some cross-links with the other articles already mentioned? -- Avocado (talk) 21:34, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Bazar de la Charité fire again

I'd never heard of the Bazar de la Charité fire before seeing the thread above. In the article's list of victims, we see:

Marie du Quesne (1857–1897), Viscountess Bonneval, whose husband had been a member of the Chamber of Deputies of the Third French Republic from 1885 to 1889

What was her husband's name, and do we have an article about him? (Obviously he passes WP:POLITICIAN.) There's nothing at Bonneval, Bonneval (surname), Quesne, or Duquesne, and I couldn't find anything with a Google search. Nyttend (talk) 06:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Likely fr:Anatole-Fernand de Bonneval, see also the official data sheet. His main achievement in the chamber was to never step on the podium... [10] --Wrongfilter (talk) 08:33, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

heck, I can do that. —Tamfang (talk) 23:33, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

And while we're at it, here's the marriage licence (the page on the right, signatures overleaf). --Wrongfilter (talk) 08:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

This looks to be the main source for the French article: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k83707p/f414.item Chuntuk (talk) 14:39, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Marie was the daughter of Rear-Admiral Joseph Marie Lazare Duquesne (1804-1854) and a descendant of the more famous Admiral Abraham Duquesne (1610-1688). She had two children, a son Bernard and a daughter Aliette, the latter dying in the fire with her mother.

From Bulletin de la Société héraldique etʹgenéalogique de France: Volume 10 (1897), p. 287.

This genealogy page about Marie gives her date of birth as 30 May 1852, rather than 1857 quoted in our article, which would be three years after her father's death and rather a long pregnancy. It also gives her father's middle name as Balthazar instead of Marie Lazare - perhaps due to inscrutable French handwriting.

Alansplodge (talk) 15:11, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

"Ce grand bébé qu'on appelle le Français" [11], making him hard to work properly the pen and ink --Askedonty (talk) 21:42, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

May 1

"The Tay Bridge Disaster" really that bad of a poem?

People say "The Tay Bridge Disaster" by William McGonagall is a bad poem, but is there any explanation as to why? Our article just says in a conclusary fashion that it has been "lampooned by critics as one of the worst poems in the English language." The source that supports the claim just calls McGonagall a writer of "juvenile, arrhythmic poems", but there's nothing on the poem itself, and the source isn't really a poetry analysis source anyways. I was able to find one source that says "parallelism must be seen to have arisen accidentally. Rhyme that appears forced runs the risk of being subject to negative evaluation." Any help? I don't think we have an article on parallelism. Therapyisgood (talk) 01:36, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Well for starters, most of it doesn't scan; where is the metre? Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:06, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

For continuation, even this defence of McGonagall admits that bathetic rhymes are characteristic of his style. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 10:22, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Also see the Poetry Foundation's definition of doggerel, which describes it as "traditionally characterized by clichés, clumsiness, and irregular meter", and illustrates this with an excerpt from the Tay Bridge Disaster. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 10:55, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

This biographical introduction to McGonagall's works says:

He shared many of the faults of Mr Pooter, being pompous, self-important, humourless and the butt of jokes he didn't understand...

From the day divine inspiration to write poetry descended upon McGonagall, he was addicted to rhyme and the same rhyme pairs would often appear in his writing - if a poem involved the queen, she'd be somewhere "green" or "wondrous to be seen”. Although rhyming was a compulsion with McGonagall, scansion was completely alien to him. The long rambling lines, ending with that vital rhyme, are the most recognisable feature of his work and sometimes reach prodigious proportions...

The third element in McGonagall's poetic technique - or lack of it - is his extraordinary ability to puncture whatever pathos he may have been able to create by the addition of some extraneous fact or an inappropriate phrase...

Hunt, Chris (2007). "Introduction". William McGonagall: Collected Poems. Edinburgh: Birlinn Limited. ISBN 978-1841584775.

Alansplodge (talk) 11:03, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Alan's quote is addressing the same point as the one about "parallelism", in the source you found. Parallelism being apparently used as a general term for rhyme, alliteration, consonance, assonance etc. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 11:11, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

In McGonagall's defence:

There is little meaningful distinction between McGonagall's style and content and that of a hawker of street verse in 1830s or 1860s Scotland... other than McGonagall's far greater reputation and longevity.

Blair, Kirstie (2019). Working Verse in Victorian Scotland: Poetry, Press, Community. Oxford University Press. p. 178. ISBN 978-0198843795.

Alansplodge (talk) 11:35, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

"being...the butt of jokes he didn't understand." Ah yes, the "fault" of every bullied child. Anyway, writing any poetry is hard, even "bad" poetry is better than most of us will ever achieve, and memorable poetry is beyond even most professional poets. DuncanHill (talk) 11:45, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

The fact that he's included in a global encyclopedia would undoubtedly please him no end. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:02, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Having read the poem, I'd say the obvious reasons would be that it's really inconsistent in structure: inconsistent line length, inconsistent verse length, and inconsistent rhyming pattern. It also has a lot of repetition (for example "on the last Sabbath day of 1879" is used four times), but even that repetition isn't consistent enough to be part of the structure of the poem. Iapetus (talk) 09:31, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Given the question is inherently subjective, I'm treating as such to whatever extent my heart desires: it's very bad. It's not bad for its use of stock poetic conventions without demonstrating any understanding of why they're used, while simultaneously just, failing, to actually use them successfully. It's bad because it's boring and says nothing. Given it's longer than a few stanzas, I would expect a poem either to "tell a story" in the most abstract sense through elements like mood, perhaps by varying or elaborating upon said elements. Here, no connections are made that run deeper than the lines on which the words themselves appear. It just sounds like someone boring is talking to me about the boat, and there's no attempt to explore anything at any depth or breadth. Boat. Boat!

Boat. Remsense诉 23:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I've always particularly enjoyed that branch of literary criticism which involves displaying the critic's complete failure to read the criticised work. There ain't a boat in it. DuncanHill (talk) 23:54, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

If I said I meant to type "bridge" four times in a row but failed all four times because I was distracted, that sounds like an obvious lie and you wouldn't believe me. So, I'll just take the L on this one. Remsense诉 23:59, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't know what "take the L" means. In your defence, boats and bridges do perform the same function, so your confusion could be excused. DuncanHill (talk) 00:04, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

"Take the loss". The silver lining here is that my claimed QWERTial aphasia was probably as interesting as "The Tay Boat Disaster". Remsense诉 00:08, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I did that writing in my Dad's Filofax the other day. I said "I'll visit on Friday", and in the Friday section I wrote "Friday", instead of "Duncan". DuncanHill (talk) 00:16, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I've just read the poem for the first time. Is he trying to rhyme Edinburgh with sorrow? And if so, how is he expecting each to be pronounced? Iapetus (talk) 09:18, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

It seems to mostly work, assuming both end with [rə] like I'd expect. Remsense诉 10:18, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Having past connections with Dundee, I'm very familiar with McGonagall (who remains a local celebrity there) and his 3-volume Poetic Gems collection is almost within arms' reach as I type.

One of McGonagall's positive features is that he documented (in appallingly bad verse) many events that were at the time locally newsworthy but which otherwise have faded from memory. Generally, he is faithful to facts as reported in the local press at the time, and the incongruity of poetising often mundane events is one source of the amusement his works afford.

In latter years it has been suggested that his apparent poetic ineptitude may have been deliberate, but more likely he genuinely lacked any literary discernment, something of a handicap in a Shakespearian actor and a self-proclaimed 'poet and tragedian.' {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.144.58 (talk) 05:45, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

See, that's neat. To be clear, even bad boring art is worth an awful lot sometimes. :) Remsense诉 06:30, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Declaration of interest here - I am the Chris Hunt who's introduction to McGonagall's collected works is quoted above! The wiki answer to the question is that it's a bad poem because reliable sources say it is. Having read this poem in public on several occasions, I can tell you it's a great poem to perform live - but only if you do it for laughs, which I'm sure was not the intention of the original author. Chuntuk (talk) 14:54, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you Chuntuk, I have used your learned text as a reference for a new section; The Tay Bridge Disaster#Criticism. I hope this satisfies Therapyisgood's original inquiry. Thanks all and feel free to edit if my modest efforts are lacking in any respect. Alansplodge (talk) 16:05, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Why ♭ seems be more popular than ♯ ?

e.g. in the circle of fifths:

• D
• A & G
• E & C
• B & F
• F♯ & B♭
• C♯ & E♭
• G♯/A♭ (they are the same note, but why called A♭ more often than G♯?)

also, in the diatonic scales:

• C major/a minor (0)
• G major/e minor (1♯) & F major/d minor (1♭)
• D major/b minor (2♯) & B♭ major/g minor (2♭)
• A major/f♯ minor (3♯) & E♭ major/c minor (3♭)
• E major/c♯ minor (4♯) & A♭ major/f minor (4♭)
• B major/g♯ minor (5♯) & D♭ major/b♭ minor (5♭)
• F♯ major/d♯ minor/G♭ major/e♭ minor (6♯/6♭) (they are the same diatonic scale, but why G♭ major/e♭ minor (6♭) is used more often than F♯ major/d♯ minor (6♯)?

125.230.0.219 (talk) 03:48, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

G♯ and A♭ are the same key on most current keyboards, but they are not the same note in all tuning systems. In Pythagorean tuning, they are separated by a Pythagorean comma.  --Lambiam 06:38, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I assume that the OP is mostly interested in Western common practice—12TET, normative music theory etc.

Let's look at the notes of F♯ major alongside those of G♭ major:

F♯, G♯, A♯, B, C♯, D♯, E♯

G♭, A♭, B♭, C♭, D♭, E♭, F

They're both equally pesky if E♯ or C♭ make you uncomfortable, of course. No double-sharps or double-flats which disqualify key signatures like G-flat minor, which requires B𝄫, E𝄫, as well as F♭. So that's not why.

I would surmise part of the reason why is that G♭ major is simply closer to other keys with which it may relate in a given piece, suite, etc. It's much more common to play around in the darkness of A♭ and D♭ major than worry about B major being annoying for everyone but the guitarist. B♭ minor is also a rather common key, because many instruments are tuned to B♭. Remsense诉 11:50, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

This means in the circle of fifths, the 7 “normal” white keys (A, B, C, D, E, F, G), and the black keys, the two black keys which are “next to” the white keys in the circle of fifths, we use F# and Bb instead of Gb and A#, since F# and Bb are “next to” the white keys in the circle of fifths, i.e, they have distance of 1 to the “normal” white keys (B and F, respectively), but Gb and A# have distance of 5 to the “normal” white keys in the circle of fifths, similarly, C# and Eb both have distance of 2 to the “normal” white keys in the circle of fifths, but Db and D# have distance of 4 to the “normal” white keys in the circle of fifths, thus we use C# and Eb instead of Db and D#, but for the black key G#/Ab, this key is the “farest” key to the white keys in the circle of fifths, both G# and Ab have distance of 3 to the “normal” white keys in the circle of fifths, but why Ab is used more often than G#? 61.224.150.139 (talk) 03:31, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

This question looks like the reverse of a question on this same reference desk that I asked on February 21, 2022. It was about why some people think it's okay to avoid flats and just use sharps in place of their flat enharmonics. Please check it out. Georgia guy (talk) 11:59, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Link: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 February 21 § Rules for how to name black keys in music.  --Lambiam 14:30, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

You've missed out mentioning C♯ major/A♯ minor, and C♭ major/A♭ minor (7♯/7♭). Three of these keys are well represented in the musical canon (including examples by Bach and Beethoven; see Overview of compositions with 7 accidentals), although for reasons I've never quite understood, A♯ minor is disfavoured almost to the point of invisibility. But not quite, as I've found a few examples in my travels (more than are shown in the linked list). Maybe your omission of these 7-accidental keys was a sort of mental bridge too far for you, and maybe that also explains why many people prefer flat keys over sharps. The physical shape of a battalion of ♯ signs might seem too brutal and threatening, compared with the softer, rounder, more swan-like ♭ signs. That's my theory. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:02, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

7# and 7b are rarely used, we usually use 5b in place of 7# and use 5# in place of 7b, since they are the same note, but 6# and 6b are also the same note. 61.224.150.139 (talk) 03:46, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Also, for the theoretical keys (8# and 8b), all of F-flat major, G-sharp major, D-flat minor have their own articles, but why E-sharp minor is only a redirect? (♭ seems be more popular than ♯) 61.224.150.139 (talk) 03:48, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

This thread suffers from the fact that nobody has bothered to verify that the premise of the question is actually correct. What makes you believe flats are more frequently used than sharps? Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:46, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

There are two meanings of "popular", the word the OP used in his question. In the sense of liked or preferred, I can vouch that many people in my experience report a greater ease when playing pieces in flat keys compared with sharp keys. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:45, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

The bit at the very end is definitely correct - Eb minor is more common than D# minor as a key signature because the accidentals are simpler (the raised 6th and 7th are C-natural and D-natural, as opposed to B-sharp and C-double-sharp). Gb major might be preferred by analogy, as any piece in a major key from the classical and romantic periods tends to spend some time in the relative minor. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 21:03, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, both of the natural major and the natural minor have no additional sharp/flat, i.e. the natural F# major and the natural D# minor have “just” this 6 sharps, and the natural Gb major and the natural Eb minor have “just” this 6 flats, but if you use the harmonic scale or the melodic scale, you will have additional sharps/flats, harmonic major has an additional flat in the 6th note, harmonic minor has an additional sharp in the 7th note, melodic major (descending) has two additional flats in the 6th and 7th notes, melodic minor (ascending) has two additional sharps in the 6th and 7th notes, thus:

	natural	harmonic	melodic
F# major	6#	5#	6# (ascending) / 4# (descending)
D# minor	6#	5#, 1##	7#, 1## (ascending) / 6# (descending)
Gb major	6b	5b, 1bb	6b (ascending) / 7b, 1bb (descending)
Eb minor	6b	5b	4b (ascending) / 6b (descending)

and the F# major together with the D# minor, and the Gb major together with the Eb minor, will use the same number of sharps/flats. 61.224.150.139 (talk) 03:43, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

• Fortunately, IMSLP uses software like Wikipedia, so that entries can be categorised in many ways, including by key signature. Like WP, it depends on volunteers actually doing the work, so who knows whether the results of any analysis are mathematically meaningful. But, fwiw, here's what I found:

  There are 50,618 pieces in flat keys, compared with only 39,190 in sharp keys. Also, 17,701 in neutral keys (predominantly C major, 73%).

  80,554 pieces in major keys, compared with only 26,955 in minor keys.

• Looking at numbers of accidentals in key signatures, there's an unsurprising preference for fewer as compared to more:

  Neutral: keys 17,701

  1 accidental: 33,276

  2 accidentals: 24,391

  3 accidentals: 19,205

  4 accidentals: 9,027

  5 accidentals: 2,688

  6 accidentals: 796

  7 accidentals: 161

• That trend also applies when applied only to major keys, or only to minor keys.
• Looking at preference of major over minor within the above split, there's a very stable trend up to 5 accidentals:

  Neutral keys: 73.2% major

  1 accidental: 74.7% major

  2 accidentals: 74.9% major

  3 accidentals: 78.8% major

  4 accidentals: 72.9% major

  5 accidentals: 74.4% major

• But for the keys with 6 or 7 accidentals, it's roughly equal:

  6 accidentals: 52.9% major

  7 accidentals: 52.8% major.

• I surmise that that's because these keys are predominantly found in exercises and studies for advanced pianists, and are not even taught to beginners.
• None of above are terribly surprising, but they do perhaps serve to confirm the OP's premise, inter alia. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:13, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

  JackofOz, that site is for old (pre-1929 for the time being; it will go up by one year every year) music. In modern popular music sharp keys appear to be more popular. Georgia guy (talk) 22:29, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

  Are you talking about score music or recorded popular music? The latter generally has much less notational or metatextual reason to strongly favor one enharmonic spelling over another. While B♭ vs. A♯ matters rather more for woodwind players reading from a score, it matters potentially not at all to a guitarist in a context where notation itself was largely optional and there generally wasn't expected to be a tonal relationship between discrete pieces. In any case, I wouldn't say it's "more popular" because it's simply not a choice that matters, so what the sticker on the fretboard (etc. etc.) says is perfectly serviceable as a label. Plus, of course, the most useful analysis of pop songs deriving in some way from the common practice would likely prefer one over the other regardless, but the distinction is often not prioritized by people entering the data. Remsense诉 22:49, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

  I found a formula, x+y gives the number of sharps/flats in this key (positive number means sharps, negative number means flats), if x+y is > +7 or < -7, then this key is only a theoretical key):

  x:

  B#: +10

  E#: +9

  A#: +8

  D#: +7

  G#: +6

  C#: +5

  F#: +4

  B: +3

  E: +2

  A: +1

  D: 0

  G: -1

  C: -2

  F: -3

  Bb: -4

  Eb: -5

  Ab: -6

  Db: -7

  Gb: -8

  Cb: -9

  Fb: -10

  y:

  Lydian: +3

  Ionian: +2

  Mixolydian: +1

  Dorian: 0

  Aeolian: -1

  Phrygian: -2

  Locrian: -3

  not count the theoretical keys (i.e. the keys with more than 7 sharps/flats), there are 15*7 = 105 possible keys (from B# Locrian (7#) to Fb Lydian (7b)). 61.224.150.139 (talk) 04:11, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

  So Fb Locrian is the most theoretical key? With 13 flat symbols and you can't even remove some of them with the star=## symbol? I suppose you could have Bbbbbbbbbbbb Locrian but that's just ridiculous. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:11, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Hitler's employment

What did Adolf Hitler do for a living between his military service and 1933? Adolf Hitler's rise to power mentions him holding a minor government position in Braunschweig, starting c. 1932, and I assume he was provided for by Bavaria when in prison, but otherwise I don't have an idea how he lived. Did he earn enough royalties from Mein Kampf to live on? Was he paid by the Party? Nyttend (talk) 21:03, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

More detail at Adolf Hitler's rise to power#From Armistice (November 1918) to party membership (September 1919). On discharge from the army, he was an intelligence agent for the miltary, spying on political extremists, where he came into contact with the DAP - German Workers' Party (later the National Socialists), By early 1920, he was the party's head of propaganda, presumably a paid role. Alansplodge (talk) 21:26, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

To the Threshold of Power, 1922/33: Origins and Dynamics of the Fascist and National Socialist Dictatorships (pp. 331-333) clarifies that he was an agent while still an army NCO and agreed to join the DAP leadership in January 1920 because of impending military cutbacks (which implies that it was indeed a paid post, although I couldn't find anything that specifically says so). Alansplodge (talk) 21:45, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

"You were supposed to investigate the DAP! Not join them!" JIP | Talk 06:43, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Ian Kershaw has a couple of bits about this in Hubris. In the early 20s he had various well-to-do supporters who gave support in a variety of ways, accommodation, transport, hosting dinners, and cash. Later, as we enter the 30s Kershaw says "Hitler had from the earliest years of his 'career', as we have seen, been supported by generous donations from benefactors. But by the early 1930s he was less dependent on financial support from private patrons, even if his celebrity status now unquestionably brought him many unsolicited donations. His sources of income have remained largely in the dark". He didn't receive a salary or speaking fees from the party, but instead received "hidden fees" - expenses based on the size of the audience, again accommodation, transport, uniforms, etc. By '32 he was earning a lot from his book, articles for newspapers and magazines, interview fees, etc. DuncanHill (talk) 12:47, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I've not yet read it, but Pool, James; Pool, Suzanne (1979). Who Financed Hitler; The Secret Funding Of Hitler's Rise To Power, 1919-1933. Macdonald and Jane's. ISBN 0-354-04395-1. looks well-worth a go. DuncanHill (talk) 13:02, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Which points out, that in 1919, "Hitler was still on the full-time payroll of the Reichswehr as a political agent." Modocc (talk) 21:49, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, but it was after he left the military that is the mystery. Alansplodge (talk) 22:09, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, I was unaware that he'd remained in the military after the war (I didn't read the earlier section of the article, and figured he'd left the army soon after the Armistice, if not sooner), so I didn't know that he remained in the Army after the war's end. Thus "he remained in the military" actually answers part of what I was looking for, even though it doesn't exactly answer the question. Nyttend (talk) 03:19, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Nyttend, I have added a brief note to the article directly after the text which states that he was discharged from the army in March 1920 and began full-time work for the Nazi Party:

Although the NSDAP claimed that Hitler received no income from them and lived on the fees he received from public speaking at non-party events, he was actually supported financially by several wealthy patrons and party sympathisers.

I have referenced it to Hitler 1889-1936: Hubris (pp. 159-160) by Ian Kershaw, which you can read on archive.org if you want more detail. Trust this is adequate. My thanks to DuncanHill for the reference. Alansplodge (talk) 15:30, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

We have an article Adolf Hitler's wealth and income which is particularly lacking for the period of this question. DuncanHill (talk) 22:24, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

May 2

Profile painting of a man wearing a turban or similar in a blue background

Hello, I've seen a lot of time ago a picture of man, facing left or right, possibly with a beard, eyes closed, wearing a peculiar hat in a blue backgound. Could be a painting or a colored photo, can't really say. I've looking for painting of doges, sultans, popes with no results. Could you please help me? Thanks in advance. Carnby (talk) 10:13, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

@Carnby, would you happen to remember any details of where you saw this picture, or roughly what the hat may have looked like? No worries if not, just wanted to see if I could narrow it down. GalacticShoe (talk) 16:35, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Maybe have a look through Category:Portraits of sultans of the Ottoman Empire? You're not giving us much to go on. Alansplodge (talk) 22:07, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I know you've mentioned paintings of doges already, but it wouldn't happen to be File:Marco Barbarigo.jpg, would it? Man in profile, peculiar hat, on a blue background, only missing the optional beard and closed eyes (although it's somewhat difficult to discern whether his eyes are open or closed from a distance.) GalacticShoe (talk) 23:22, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

@Alansplodge@GalacticShoe Thanks for your efforts. I meant something like this. Hope it helps.-- Carnby (talk) 21:28, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

May 3

Women trafficked to the harems in the 20th-century

Hello, I have read about slavery in Saudi Arabia and the Trucial states, which ended in the 1960s. One aspect of this was the use of female slaves as concubines in harems, which ocurred until the 1960s. What I wonder about is: were there any European women who fell victims to this slave trade in the 20th-century? That is the period of 1900 until the 1960s, when slavery was abolished.

The text books I read were not very clear: it was noted that European women were the most expensive in the 19th-century, but in the 20th-century the only slave trade described were the Red Sea slave trade. It was briefly mentioned that a small minority of the slaves were European, but only in passing.

Is it known if there were any trafficking of European female slaves to the Arabian Peninsula in the 1930s, 1940s or 1950s? Perhaps reports of trafficking in European women at the time? Thanks--92.35.238.97 (talk) 00:16, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

From the late 19th century through the 1960s, that would have been called "White Slavery" and was a perennial topic of sensationalistic newpaper headlines and highly fictionalized accounts in pulp men's adventure magazines. Around 1980, I actually read parts of a book (probably published in the 1960s or early 1970s) about "white slavery" in the Arab world, but I have no idea now of the title or author, and it focused more on North Africa than the Gulf. As far as I can remember, many of the cases were about young Western European women who were kind of blackmailed into sex-trafficking. Their situations were sad, but according to the author (who had a definite personality in his writing), many of them had made stupid decisions along the way and/or been cast aside by their families. A big thing in the book was "photo slavery", which has resemblances to today's manipulations of getting someone to send a nude selfie, and using that one to blackmail her into sending even more, but of course without smartphones, and the women didn't take their own photos. I don't think there's anything about it on Wikipedia, and I can't find any way to search for it specifically on Google. AnonMoos (talk) 12:25, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I am aware of that term, and that trafficking was sensationalized, but that was more about victims of the sex trafficking to brothels. I was specifically asking about European women trafficked to harems in the Arabian Peninsula in 1900-1960s, where slavery was in fact still legal at the time, and women were indeed concubines (sex slaves) in the harems at that time period. Slavery was abolished in Saudi Arabia and Yemen in 1962, in the Trucial States/United Arab Emirates in 1963, in Oman in 1970, and female sex slaves/concubines were a reality in that region. I am aware that European women were trafficked there historically, but did that still hapen in the 20th-century? --92.35.238.97 (talk) 14:27, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

There was domestic "white slavery" and international "white slavery"; the International Agreement for the suppression of the White Slave Traffic was aimed at the latter... AnonMoos (talk) 15:52, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I expect that law could be used against it. But it still speak mainly of the illegal sex trafficking to brothels, rather than the chattel slavery to the harems which were still legal in the Arabian Peninsula at the time. Are there any cases known in the 1930s-1960s were it is confirmed that European women were sold to the harems in this time period? --92.35.238.97 (talk) 18:57, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Declining numbers of US lawyers

Since 2020, and for the first time in 100 years, the number of active lawyers in the U.S. has been decreasing: ABA National Lawyer Population Survey. Do we know why? Do we have articles addressing this trend? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 10:15, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I would think the pandemic might have something to do with it. 2A00:23C4:79CD:B301:65BA:2E7F:4E84:886 (talk) 11:53, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Why would the number of lawyers decrease during the pandemic? Still, to support your assumption, "from 2022 to 2023, the number of active lawyers counted by the survey rose slightly, by just over 4,000, or three-tenths of one percent" (Source). So it's growing again but:

• The number of lawyers in 2023 is still 1.6% below 2019 (1,352,077),
• It only grew by +0.3% in 2023, which is the second lowest growth rate since 1955 (after +0.1% in 2002 and excluding the 3 years of decline)

I also found that the median real incomes of lawyers have been declining and "Between 2008 and 2019, lawyers’ income share of the national gross domestic product fell from 1.64% to 1.32% because clients purchased lawyers’ services less often.". a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 12:08, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

This may be more related to demographics than anything else. For example, [12] shows that in the UK the number of practising solicitors and barristers over the nine quarters from Q4 2021 to Q4 2023 went down>up>up>down>up>down>up>down. There was a drop of 11,500 (about 1/2 per cent) between Q4 2021 and Q1 2022, and from Q1 2022 to Q4 2023 the number rose by 21,900. 2A00:23C4:79CD:B301:65BA:2E7F:4E84:886 (talk) 12:38, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Data since August 2011 shows a linear growth of practising solicitors in England and Wales. However, the process to become a solicitor was reformed and simplified in 2021. Without this reform, what would be the numbers? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 12:48, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think you can pin this down specifically. For example, this [13] shows that the number of practising barristers in England and Wales has risen continuously between 2019 and 2023, but this increase represents only 800 individuals. There's an in-depth discussion at [14]. 2A00:23C4:79CD:B301:65BA:2E7F:4E84:886 (talk) 13:05, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Barristers are less than 10% of all UK lawyers (including also trademark & patent attorneys and CILEX lawyers). a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 13:37, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Maybe they keep working for a certain ex-president and get disbarred as a result? Chuntuk (talk) 14:42, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Chuntuk, I doubt it; per the ABA, just 2,791 lawyers were publicly disciplined in 2021, and just 479 of them were disbarred. Nyttend (talk) 21:09, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Danish Islands

Is there a collective name, modern or historical, for the Danish Islands between Schleswig and Scania? I'm referring to Zealand, Funen, Lolland, Falster and othe minor islands. Thank you! 195.62.160.60 (talk) 11:54, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Not in English as far as I can tell. Alansplodge (talk) 14:22, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

We got these here: Sydhavsøerne (informal) and South Funen Archipelago. Abductive (reasoning) 20:18, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

The articles on these islands in the Danish Wikipedia do not reveal some collective name that covers all these islands. The article on Denmark itself mentions "the Danish islands" (de danske øer) lying between Kattegat and the Baltic Sea, but this descriptive name is IMO not meant to be a proper noun. Clearly, North Jutlandic Island, not lying between these sea areas, is also a Danish island.  --Lambiam 20:57, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

April 19

"Sitzfleisch" (German)

Aspiring pilots train their seat flesh (sit-flesh, or sit-meat) as a 6th or 7th sense for the flight attitude of their aircraft in the (real) flight simulator (on three pairs of hydraulic stilts). (I had the flight simulator to maintain and debug.) What do American or English pilots call this sensory organ? --Virtualiter (talk) 13:41, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Organ? It's an ability. As a capacity to endure long periods of sitting, Wiktionary claims it's become an English loanword. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 14:31, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

I know the ability to sit for long periods of time from Leo.org. I mean the 6th sense.

Is that sense in actual usage? It's not mentioned at German Wiktionary. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 20:58, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

In (German) flight simulators for instrumental flight. Elsewhere this usually means Popo. --Virtualiter (talk) 14:54, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Not a matter of endurance, but one can fly by the seat of one's pants. DuncanHill (talk) 14:43, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

The idiom is already heading in the right direction (flying with your butt). But do pilots actually say that? German interpreters don't know this meaning at all:https://dict.leo.org/forum/viewUnsolvedquery.php?idForum=2&idThread=838577&lp=ende&lang=de (Following your intuition and hoping that something will come out of it. But targeted training is different.) --Virtualiter (talk) 16:44, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

When flying or driving, the moment-by-moment variable forces (both lateral and horizontal) seemingly sensed by the posterior give useful feedback. There may also (my speculation) be an element of psychologically induced proprioceptive sensation, since particularly risky vehicle movements (such as nearly skidding in a car) induce an enhanced feeling in that area (see also "half-crown tanner", a piece of British slang I cannot for the moment find any formal reference for).

@151.227: Sixpence is "a tanner" and two shillings and sixpence is "half a crown". In what circumstances did you encounter the phrase "half-crown tanner"? 2A02:C7B:100:AA00:D9ED:5C02:4C7B:F3D7 (talk) 10:29, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

www.trucknetuk.com/t/foden-park-brake/107528#:~:text=tanner and www.dartsnutz.net/forum/thread-36170-post-580324.html#:~:text=tanner suggest the phrase "half-crown tanner" is used to signify an alarming experience. Bazza 7 (talk) 12:10, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Presumably because a half-crown tanner is five times the worth of an ordinary tanner, and thereby really off the charts.  --Lambiam 18:45, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

It is actually a description of the supposed variation in the diameter of one's anus in frightening moments, as the half-crown was the largest-diameter coin in common circulation and the 'tanner' (sixpenny piece) the smallest. I should strictly have written it as "half-crown–tanner".

As for the 'circumstance[s] of [my] encountering the phrase', it has been a lifelong part of my ideolect, being in widespread use both in The East End of London whence my family hails, and in the British Army within which I grew up as an 'Army brat'. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.134.31 (talk) 16:04, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

I seem to recall that a current Formula One driver recently(?) said words to the effect that the posterior is one of the most important sensory organs when racing. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.134.31 (talk) 17:28, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

If we need a term for this fundamental ability to sense attitude, I propose posterioception.  --Lambiam 09:35, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Did you mean Proprioception? --Virtualiter (talk) 16:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

A Google search didn't find much, bur in the comments section of this article, a contributor uses the term "butt sensors" (presumably American, but the use of "butt" over "bum" is gaining ground in Britain too). Alansplodge (talk) 12:04, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Is this the right place to ask for IPA transcriptions?

Hello, is this the right place to ask for IPA transcriptions? I have two doubts. Stephen was reported to have a minority pronunciation [ˈstɛfən] (Philippines?) but there were no sources and so I deleted it. Karkade Arabic pronunciation (كركديه) is [karkaˈdiːh], right?-- Carnby (talk) 18:55, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Some questions about Japanese

1: Are there some morae or syllables that occur either primarily or only in kango? (Gairaigo is ignored for the sake of this question.)

2: For kanji that are phono-semantic compounds, is the idea that two characters with the same phonetic component would have the same or similar pronunciation only applicable to the Chinese-derived on'yomi, or is it also applicable to the native reading as well?

3: Did Old Japanese have long vowels or were they a later development? If the latter, is it known which specific developments resulted in their emergence? Primal Groudon (talk) 22:07, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

2. Since kanji were borrowed from Chinese hanzi, native correspondences seem unlikely on any level higher than pure chance. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:10, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Primal_Groudon -- For an interesting discussion of the Japanese writing system which won't necessarily answer your specific questions, but is very illuminating as to the details of the ways that Chinese characters are used in it, see chapter 9 of "Writing Systems" by Geoffrey Sampson. -- AnonMoos (talk) 23:20, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Which is a good read anyway. —Tamfang (talk) 23:55, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

According to the WP article, Old Japanese did not have long vowels. The following should be double checked as it's about a topic I haven't looked at for a very long time, but if it can be useful to you here it is: Long vowels in Modern Japanese appear mostly in onyomi. The northern Chinese language, Mandarin Chinese, at the time of the earliest borrowings at least, still had syllables ending in -p, -t, -k. When borrowed into Japanese those ending in -t and -k became disyllables ending in -tsu and -ku (sometimes -chi and -ki), for example "koku" the onyomi of the kanji that means "country" 国 (the kunyomi is "kuni"). But those ending in -p became words ending in long vowels (not words ending in -hu or -hi for some reason, which I do not remember, even though dissyllables ending in -hu or -hi do exist in Japanese). Chinese syllables ending in -ng also produced long vowels in Japanese ("mei" or "myou" from 明 "ming"). However not all long vowels in Japanese are in onyomi. For example long a "aa" cannot be produced this way and I don't think it ever occurs in onyomi. You'll have to look for another development. Maybe a consonant falling off between two syllables. Also there's long o and long e in kunyomi (mostly long o). Sometimes the spelling is different. Long o in onyomi is always written "ou" whereas in kunyomi it may be written "oo", e.g. 遠に hiragana とおい "tooi" "be far away". Note also there's "ou" that is not the long vowel o but simply o + u, e.g. 思う "omou" "think", but then the "u" is written separately as hiragana, it is native, and is never part of the reading of a kanji. I've ignored modern borrowings where long vowels can also occur as in コーヒー "koohii" from English "coffee", etc. In katakana long vowels are not written by adding a kana to the short vowel but with a dash. I do hope this proves useful but like I said double check everything. 178.51.93.5 (talk) 13:39, 20 April 2024 (UTC) PS: Article On'yomi or Kun'yomi claim all onyomi are monosyllabic. Not true (as I show above): "koku" and hundreds of others!

Apparently Old Japanese is hypothetized to have had three more basic vowels than Modern Japanese, so I guess it might have been more like Korean in that aspect. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 23:26, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Actually it's complicated. The analysis of the manyogana used in the verse parts of the Kojiki (the prose is in Chinese) shows 88 distinct syllables (89 in Miyake 2003). But only three or four columns of the syllabary (k-, g-, m-, and in Miyake 2003 p-, but not b-) have all 8 variants. How those 88 or 89 distinct syllables map to distinct vowels is not at all clear. There are several systems and as you can see some add 1 vowel, some 2 vowels and some 3 vowels to the 5 vowels of modern Japanese, and some add no vowel at all and work with the 5 vowels of modern Japanese. Incidentally I have no special knowledge in this matter, I'm simply quoting from the article. One thing I don't understand is how the various variants of the syllabary are correlated: on what basis Bi1 goes with Pi1 and Bi2 with Pi2 and not Bi1 with Pi2 and Bi2 with Pi1. The article doesn't explain but I'm sure there is an explanation. Maybe the Chinese vowels (this is not modern Chinese) or the tones? However the article also quotes Miyake 2003 on the danger of circularity because the values of the vowels in ancient Chinese are themselves in part based on Japanese (and other) data. So it's more complicated than saying that Old Japanese had 8 vowels. It'd be more accurate to say that Old Japanese is a headache. 178.51.93.5 (talk) 10:00, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

April 20

Emblazoned for emblazed: how common is that?

CNN's Laura Coates says: "A man has emblazoned himself in front of the courthouse". Strictly speaking she should have said "emblazed". How common has that switch become? Is there a name for the process where longer forms (sometimes even incorrect ones) replace shorter ones (for example "notice" for "note", etc.)? 178.51.93.5 (talk) 11:00, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

It's a malapropism, "emblazoned" refers to the heraldic blazon, not a blaze of fire. A quick Google search failed to find any similar misuse of the word, although the CNN quote has been widely reported. Alansplodge (talk) 11:10, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

I was not asking for the meanings. I knew them: "Strictly speaking she should have said emblazed". My question was about how widespread it had become. Sometimes malapropisms become widespread, through false etymologies, or sometimes (perhaps) the pedantic attraction of longer forms. Incidentally, I wonder if it can nevertheless happen in the other direction: do people really use "emblaze" to mean "emblazoned" (as Wiktionary claims)? 178.51.93.5 (talk) 12:30, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Do people really use "emblaze" at all? I've never encountered it before. Traditionally one immolates oneself, in an act of self-immolation. DuncanHill (talk) 15:05, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think I have ever (in over 60 years of literacy) previously encountered "emblazed", though it has a very brief entry in my 1,690-page Collins dictionary. Emblazoned for me only takes the heraldic meaning (usually "to describe [a coat of] arms in heraldic terminology"), as it's a subject I've long been interested in. It can be used poetically: there is a Thomas Hardy poem 'The Self-Unseeing' that includes the line "Blessings emblazoned that day" – I remember arguing with an English teacher over whether Hardy had used it appropriately; I thought not.

I think anyone familiar enough with heraldry to be mentioning the action at all would know that it's "emblazon", not "emblaze". {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.134.31 (talk) 20:16, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

ASP wrote: "A quick Google search failed to find any similar misuse of the word". That was clearly a response to your question about how widespread it had become. Apparently not widespread at all.  --Lambiam 21:01, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

April 22

Greek letters and origin

Are there any Greek letters or letter combinations that are more prevalent in some of these types of words than in others?

1: Native words.

2: Older loans, which refers to loans borrowed into Greek back when each letter and diphthong still had its Ancient Greek pronunciation.

3: Newer loans, which refers to loans borrowed into Greek after each letter and letter combination had already shifted to its modern Greek pronunciation. Primal Groudon (talk) 13:18, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Generally, letters and letter combinations like ⟨ω, η, υ, ει, οι, αι, αυ, ευ, γγ⟩ are indicators for a native word, because the sounds they represent have more 'straightforward' spellings, which loanwords generally use. To an extent the same goes for ⟨δ, θ, γ, ψ⟩, as their sounds are rare in the vocabulary that Greek borrows. On the other hand, ⟨τζ⟩ and, especially if initial, ⟨μπ, ντ, γκ⟩, are indicators for a loanword. --Theurgist (talk) 15:45, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

English ⟨ee⟩ tends to be transcribed in proper nouns as ⟨η⟩, though (for example Ληντς for Leeds and Στηλ for Steele), but neither this nor other conventions are set rules. And occasionally, for unclear reasons, the conventional Greek transcription of a name does not suggest its original pronunciation.  --Lambiam 16:55, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

The Greek Wikipedia's article about the city is at Λιντς, while bearers of the surname are given as both Στιλ and Στηλ, the latter article also citing Στιλ as an alternative. I did not say those are absolute rules; variations exist especially for languages such as English and French which themselves spell those sounds variously, and less for others. --Theurgist (talk) 18:19, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

By “the sounds they represent” and “their sounds”, do you mean their current or original/ancient sounds? Primal Groudon (talk) 17:56, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Current. --Theurgist (talk) 18:19, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

@Theurgist: Now I'm curious: are there native Greek words with the loanword-indicating combinations you mentioned? Double sharp (talk) 18:20, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Initial μπ, ντ, γκ indicate voiced stops [b],[d], [g], but initial Ancient Greek stops became fricatives. AnonMoos (talk) 20:28, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

There are a number of native Modern Greek words with initial μπ, ντ, γκ; I believe most of them are the result of fusion of Ancient Greek initial "εν-" with a following plosive, as in μπαίνω < ἐμπαίνω < ἐμ-βαίνω 'enter'. Other examples are μπάζω, μπερδεύω, μπήγω, μπλέκω, μπορώ, μπροστά; ντόπιος, ντρέπομαι, ντροπή, ντύνω; γκαμήλα, γκαρδιακός, γκαστρώνω, γκρεμός and others. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:52, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. I should have thought of these common words μπορώ and ντύνω/ντύνομαι – although sometimes the most common things are not representative because they are also the most irregular ones. And is there anything native with ⟨τζ⟩? Even τζατζίκι is in fact a loan from Turkish, and the cluster wasn't used in Ancient Greek. --Theurgist (talk) 12:11, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this corresponds to your 1: or 2:, but some combinations are thought to be characteristic of the Pre-Greek substrate. I have previously read somewhere that this includes the 'νθ' ['nth'] combination found in place names of pre-Greek origin such as 'Κορινθος' ['Corinth']. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.134.31 (talk) 15:48, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

The onsets κτ-, χτ-, πτ-, φτ-, χθ- and φθ- signal that a modern Greek word is inherited from Ancient Greek.  --Lambiam 13:38, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Do initial χτ φτ exist? (None in my dictionary.) In all such sequences I know of, they match in voice and aspiration. (There are also a few words beginning βδ and one rare γδ!) I imagine that χθ φθ exist because the aspiration was considered to apply to the cluster as a whole. —Tamfang (talk) 03:29, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

χτ- and φτ- onsets are frequent in Modern Greek, but they are typically derived from either κτ-/πτ- or χθ-/φθ- respectively in Ancient Greek. There was a general rule of dissimilation where clusters of either two aspirates or two plain voiceless plosives were changed to these fricative+plosive pairs. Examples with χτ- in Modern Greek: χτες 'yesterday', χτενίζω 'comb', χτίζω 'build' etc (some of these have alternative spellings with either χθ- or κτ- reflecting the etymology); examples with φτ-: φτιάχνω 'make', φτάνω 'arrive', φτερό 'wing', etc. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:52, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Interesting, thanks! (Likewise for your remarks on μπ, ντ, γκ.) —Tamfang (talk) 20:01, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Medial geminates do not match in aspiration -- see Bartholomae's law... AnonMoos (talk) 22:16, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

New Deal protest sign

hello, on this sign, why is a word ("government") written that way? (reverse N/Cyrillic И (?)) ? Thank you everyone in advance Aecho6Ee (talk) 13:55, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Substituting in a few similar looking Cyrillic characters is sometimes used in graphic design to give a Russian flavour; e.g. the cover of "Superman: Red Son", about an alternate comic book world where baby Superman lands in the USSR and is raised by Russian peasants. Perhaps in the context of not accepting "government relief", the suggestion is that government relief is a Russian or (in 1940) Communist concept.

Or it's a typo. 91.194.221.225 (talk) 14:43, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Not in a literal sense, since the sign is evidently hand-written. Semi-literacy is possible, but unlikely since the short statement contains 4 correctly-written 'Ns' preceding the one in question. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.134.31 (talk) 15:43, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

They missed the obvious chance, though, to write GOVEЯИMEИT. Mistakenly copying the letter in a mirrored form seems more likely.  --Lambiam 15:51, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

For the low-point of pseudo-Cyrillic, see the name of the Paul McCartney album CHOBA B CCCP as released in the U.S. and U.K., where they fake-Cyrillic'ed an actual Cyrillic phrase! AnonMoos (talk) 17:14, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I think the letters are stenciled: if you look closely, you'll see that the "S"s of THIS and IS are completely identical, including slight serifs that would be quite unlikely in freehand lettering. It's therefore possible that the stencil for the second N in GOVERNMENT got turned around by accident and by the time the sign-painter noticed, it was too late and/or the sign-painter didn't care enough to fix it. —Mahāgaja · talk 15:57, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Good solution! --142.112.220.50 (talk) 02:50, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

April 24

O dialeto fluminense

O dialeto fluminense - please see pt:Dialeto fluminense and en Fluminense dialect and https://web.archive.org/web/20071030034105/http://www.instituto-camoes.pt/cvc/hlp/geografia/som90.html

Hello all, I would appreciate your assistance with this.

Also: what the actual firetruck is going on with this "cancel / Add topic" firetruckery nonsense when I simply want to ask a WP:RD/L question? (Self-answer, I guess: take it up somewhere else.)

Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 09:51, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Each question is a new topic, by the terminology of this page. Hence, to start a question you click on 'Add topic' (at the top of the page), and while typing it in, you may change your mind and 'Cancel' (and we will see nothing) or go ahead and 'Add topic', whereupon we will see it. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 12:51, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

As to your request for help, en-Wikipedia has no article for the Fluminense dialect (yet), and I suspect few regular respondants here speak Portugese, Brazilian or otherwise, hence the lack so far of a substantive response. I for one have no idea what it is that you actually want. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.144.58 (talk) 18:01, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Brazilian Portuguese#Dialects is as close as we get. Alansplodge (talk) 12:48, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

April 27

Of or In

Hello if an article is focused on highlighting a country's or city's attractions or venues or landmarks is it of or in? For example, Landmarks of Zambia or Landmarks in Zambia? Attractions of Seattle or Attractions in Seattle?

Wikipedia seems to be inconsistent. Classicwiki (talk) If you reply here, please ping me. 21:37, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't suppose it matters much, but in seems more neutral, while of implies that the people or government of the region are responsible for the thing in question. So we have Slums in Chennai and Abandoned mine drainages in Colorado, not of in either case, whereas Castles of Albania says "these castles are a great asset to the Albanian nation".  Card Zero  (talk) 00:04, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Both are clearly correct. "Of" indicates association, as in prepositinal sense 8 here, "belonging or connected to"; "in" indicates location, as in prepositional sense 1 here, "within the limits, bounds, or area of". So it's a matter of preference. --142.112.220.50 (talk) 00:08, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

I would tend to see "landmarks of" as more natural than "landmarks in". Native British English speaker. DuncanHill (talk) 00:10, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

@Card Zero - that was the same line of logic I had. Take for example, Pueblo Bonito which was built before the state of New Mexico even existed. To me it would feel more neutral to say it is a landmark in New Mexico. Thanks for the reply. Classicwiki (talk) If you reply here, please ping me. 00:20, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

April 28

Questions

1. Are there any English dialects with short front rounded vowels, like /ʏ/ or /œ/?
2. Are there any words in English where checked vowels occur before /r/?
3. Are there any words in English where short full vowels occur in end of word?
4. Is there any language where epenthetic vowels or clitics can be stressed?
5. Are there any words in English where short vowels occur in stressed open syllables?
6. In Spanish, word país is pronounced [pa.ˈis]. The hypothetical word pais would be pronounced as [pajs], with a diphthong. But how would [ˈpa.is] be spelled, with a hiatus and stress on first syllable?
7. Can in English the OVS word order be used on emphasis?

--40bus (talk) 20:46, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

As for no. 2, checked vowels occur before intervocalic "r" in all quasi-standard dialects of English that I'm aware of. In the trio of "marry, merry, and Mary", short "a" [æ] traditionally occured in the first word and short "e" [ɛ] in the second. AnonMoos (talk) 02:14, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

New Yorkers, at least, tend to pronounce "marry" and "Mary" with a short a. In the midwest at least, marry, merry and Mary are generally pronounced identically, i.e. to sound like "merry". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:49, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

See Mary–marry–merry merger. In British English, this merger does not exist, the three words are pronounced with different vowels. Alansplodge (talk) 21:30, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Regardless of merging or not, checked/short vowels occur before intervocalic "r" in all quasi-standard dialects of English that I'm aware of. AnonMoos (talk) 23:17, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Is there an article on the Belvoir / Beaver merger? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:19, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

What is that supposed to mean? AnonMoos (talk) 23:21, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Belvoir and Beaver are pronounced the same. DuncanHill (talk) 23:48, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Learning this has just given me the same level of whiplash I felt when I learned that Cholmondeley is pronounced "Chum-lee." GalacticShoe (talk) 00:07, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

That's nice -- it has absolutely nothing whatever to do with checked vowels before "r", and so is exactly as relevant here as "Saturn has rings"... AnonMoos (talk) 00:41, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

As for no. 3, I already pointed out "yeah" and "baaah" (bleating of a sheep) previously. If you mean stressed short or checked vowels ending full lexical words (non-interjections), the answer is "no". AnonMoos (talk) 02:14, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

There is pho. Nardog (talk) 23:56, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Only if it's pronounced in a foreign way. AnonMoos (talk) 00:41, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

As for no. 5, there are many many English words where a stressed short/checked vowel occurs before a single intervocalic consonant (river, rubber, better, sinner etc. etc, where the orthographic double consonant letters do not indicate distinctive phonological geminate consonant sounds), but whether such a syllable is considered "open" depends on your theory of syllabification. AnonMoos (talk) 02:22, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

As for no. 4, there are a few forms in Tiberian Hebrew where an originally epenthetic vowel ends up stressed. The noun חדר "room" is Heder in the absolute state. It's a Segolate, so the first vowel is stressed, while the second vowel is originally epenthetic, but sometimes in the construct state the stress shifts to the second syllable... AnonMoos (talk) 02:44, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

See the first two pronunciations at Wiktionary (though not strictly Biblical). AnonMoos (talk) 23:20, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

As for no. 7, it's easy to get OSV with topicalization (focus fronting): "Him I don't like". OVS would be difficult outside of tortured poetry... AnonMoos (talk) 02:56, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

If an example of tortured poetry is needed, "Jawbone And The Air-Rifle" by The Fall contains the line "No bottle has he anymore". --Wrongfilter (talk) 10:39, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

V2 word order mentions some vestiges in Modern English. The section on direct quotations is relevant, as the quote can be seen as the direct object of the verb in the dialogue tag. So, ‘“Don't let us go too far!” said Frodo,’ is in OVS order. PiusImpavidus (talk) 19:52, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

It's kind of stretching the meanings to call a full sentence an "object". If by object we mean something which is typically given an accusative ending in case-inflected languages (due to its relationship with a verb), then OVS is quite marginal in modern English. (Notice that in the V2 word order article you linked to, the things that can cause V2 are listed as "topic adverbs and adverbial phrases" and quotatives -- not objects...) AnonMoos (talk) 22:15, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

4: Bulgarian has both. After the negative particle, pronominal and reflexive clitics are normally stressed: не те видях /nɛ ˈtɛ viˈdjax/ 'I didn't see you' (cf. днес те видях /ˈdnɛs tɛ viˈdjax/ 'today I saw you'), не се знае /nɛ ˈsɛ ˈzna.ɛ/ 'it is not known' (cf. това се знае /toˈva sɛ ˈzna.ɛ/ 'this is (well-)known'). Also the epenthetic vowel is stressed in добър /doˈbɤr/ 'good' (cf. the plural form добри /doˈbri/). Besides, in Arabic imperative verb forms, initial clusters are prevented by epenthesis of preceding vowels (themselves preceded by /ʔ-/ because a vowel cannot begin a syllable either), and compliant to the stress patterns of the language, such vowels can be stressed: اكتب /ˈʔuk.tub/ 'write!', اذهب /ˈʔið.hab/ 'go!'. --Theurgist (talk) 21:37, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

April 29

Deliberate misspellings

Is there a term for the deliberate misspellings used in advertising such as "nite" ad "kwik"? I couldn't find one in the extensive -onym article, though such crimes probably don't deserve to be listed there. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:48, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Sensational spelling. Nardog (talk) 09:17, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Ah, thank you! That's not a description I would have used myself. Shantavira|^{feed me} 10:25, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Shantavira, the term doesn't specify which sensation is evoked :-) Alansplodge (talk) 11:55, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

TV Tropes uses the term Xtreme Kool Letterz Iapetus (talk) 12:02, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

April 30

Latin alphabet

Why Bulgarian has not switched to Latin alphabet like Romanian did in 1860, and why Serbian can also be written in Latin alphabet in addition to Cyrillic, but Macedonian cannot? --40bus (talk) 21:28, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that it's been explained before that the basic correlation is with religion: Predominantly Catholic and/or Protestant in population means a strong likelihood of being written with the Latin alphabet, while predominantly Eastern Orthodox means a strong likelihood of being written with the Greek or Cyrillic alphabets (and of course, in the 19th century and earlier, predominantly Muslim meant a strong likelihood of being written with the Arabic alphabet). A deliberate decision was made to switch Romanian from Cyrillic to Latin to affiliate Romanian with French and the other Romance languages (and also because many Romanians disliked Russia). Bulgarian had no such reasons to shift. Serbo-Croatian was spoken by large numbers of both Catholics and Orthodox, so basically from the beginning of its significant use as a literary language, it was written in both the Latin and Cyrillic alphabets. For complicated and specific reasons, the Latin alphabet had more use in Serbia than the Cyrillic alphabet had in Croatia. Macedonian (which was codified a century after Serbo-Croatian) was unaffected by this... AnonMoos (talk) 23:05, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Additionally, the Early Cyrillic alphabet was devised in Bulgaria in the 9th-century, so there's probably an element of national pride involved in its retention there. Alansplodge (talk) 12:00, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Sunless Sea - Original Game Soundtrack

Am i correct in assuming that the title of track 3, 4, 5, 10, 15 and 20 is Latin? Trade (talk) 22:53, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

"Elegiac" and "Benthic" are derived from Greek through Latin, but do not have the endings to be actual Latin words. And "Zombius" is not traditional Latin. -- AnonMoos (talk) 23:13, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Though it's implied in your answer, I think it's worth making explicit for OP that elegiac and benthic are English words. GalacticShoe (talk) 06:54, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Only #20, Undulata, is proper Latin. Other titles that look like Latin are dog Latin. The first word of #15, Vox, is a good Latin word, but while the term Zombius by itself could be a Latin adjective formed from a proper noun, the combination should then have been Vox Zombia, since vox is a feminine noun.  --Lambiam 06:23, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Out of interest, it seems likely that the term "Sunless Sea" is taken from Kubla Khan, a poem written by Samuel Taylor Coleridge in 1797:

In Xanadu did Kubla Khan

A stately pleasure-dome decree:

Where Alph, the sacred river, ran

Through caverns measureless to man

Down to a sunless sea.

Alansplodge (talk) 11:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

You are correct. Sunless Sea and its originating/companion game Fallen London are set in an alternative version of Victorian London, and thus make the occasional literary reference apt for the time. GalacticShoe (talk) 16:04, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

May 1

Tank legend

A Soviet M4A2 at Grabow in eastern Germany, May 1945.

Could someone kindly translate the Russian slogan chalked on the side of this Lend-Lease Sherman tank please? Alansplodge (talk) 13:19, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

"Forward to victory", although победе is misspelled as поведе for some reason. Xuxl (talk) 13:40, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, it appears to be a Б, the majuscule form of the б, with a long serif descending from the upper horizontal stroke. Вперед literally means "in the lead", "in the front".  --Lambiam 14:06, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

It's 'v' followed by 'p', but yeah. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 15:38, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Marvelous - thanks all. Google finds that it's a well-used phrase and alliterative to boot.

File:Аввакумов. По вражьей земле. Вперед к победе!.jpg Alansplodge (talk) 18:39, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Resolved

Vpered k pobede is arguably not alliterative, considering Russian consonant clusters. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:19, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I stand corrected, I was getting my Cyrillic characters muddled. Alansplodge (talk) 16:42, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Deventer pronunciation

Does anyone here know why our article on the Hanseatic city of Deventer says Dutch: [ˈdeːvəntər], when everyone in the city as well as those driving and marshalling intercity trains to it seem to pronounce it more like [ˈdæjvəntər]? Is that pronunciation in brackets when it should actually be in slashes or am I just tone deaf? Thanks! – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 19:45, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I guess the local pronunciation might be considered dialectal and not official in Standard Dutch. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:18, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Wiktionary gives the pronunciation /ˈdeː.vən.tər/, between slashes. In Northern Standard Dutch as commonly spoken today by e.g. TV anchors, the /eː/ is realized as a diphthong [eɪ̯]. The Dutch Low Saxon spelling is Daeventer, in which ⟨ae⟩ presumably reflects the local pronunciation.  --Lambiam 06:42, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

It would be best to put it in slashes, not brackets.

I find Dutch phonetic transcriptions here often overly narrow, as if attempting to pinpoint the exact town the speaker comes from. There is a dialect continuum, ranging from Low Saxon, as spoken in Twente on the eastern border of the Netherlands, to Northern Standard Dutch, as spoken on the west coast and used by most TV anchors (and, somewhat derogatory, called Randstad Dutch by those not coming from the west). Sallands, spoken around Deventer, is near, but not at, the east end of that continuum. The east has monophthongs, the west diphthongises the tense vowels; in the east, the vowels tend to be a bit more closed than in the west. City dialects are often a bit different from the surrounding countryside; less conservative and sounding more western. I don't know any people originating from Deventer, although I've a cousin currently living there. [æ] for the the first vowel sounds a bit too open to me, but I don't know the local city dialect. There are places where /e/ can be realised as such.

The standard announcements on trains are pre-recorded, by a small sample of voice actors. The pronunciation is usually non-local, sometimes completely wrong. Live announcements are spoken by the guard of the train, who can come from anywhere in the country and is usually not familiar with the local dialect. They are supposed to use reasonably standard Dutch, but there's no official standard and only the guards originating from the Randstad are likely to use Randstad Dutch. PiusImpavidus (talk) 11:20, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

May 2

Why is Tresckow pronounced like -cow and and not -coff

• Henning Hermann Karl Robert von Tresckow (German: [ˈhɛ.nɪŋ fɔn ˈtʁeːs.ko] ^ⓘ ...

That's how I've always heard his name spoken in movies etc, but I thought maybe they were pandering to ignorant Englishers who don't know that -ow in German is normally said like -off. Not so in this case, apparently.

So why is Tresckow spoken that way? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 11:26, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I can't tell you why this is so, but the pronunciation is actually standard for German names, in particular in the North East, see for instance the Berlin borough of Pankow. Russian names, by contrast, are usually transcribed as -ow (e.g. Gorbatschow) and pronounced -off. It's confusing, but there is a pattern. --Wrongfilter (talk) 11:48, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

de:-ow has some info about these names. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:31, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Word-final ow in German is always pronounced [o(ː)]. There are a million examples, particularly place names, but also surnames. The former GDR is full of places ending in ow; in Rostock (district) alone, we find the municipalities Güstrow, Neubukow, Satow, Teterow, Retschow, Bützow, Tarnow, Warnow, Groß Schwiesow, Gülzow-Prüzen, Gutow, Lüssow, Dobbin-Linstow, Krakow am See, Wardow, Alt Sührkow, Schorssow, Sukow-Levitzow, Thürkow, Alt Bukow, Bröbberow, Kassow, Grammow, Nustrow, Thelkow, Kritzmow, Pölchow, and Stäbelow. The only German word ending with ow pronounced [ɔf] that I am aware of is Kromow, and that is the name of a fictional character in The Merry Widow who is supposed to be a Slav. In fact, the only other German word I can think of where word-final w is pronounced [f] is the name of the city of Calw.

There is something unexpected about the pronunciation of Tresckow, though: the spelling would have you expect [ˈtʁɛsko(ː)] with a short e. 2001:4646:2494:0:C6D:BAD6:4C79:F92E (talk) 18:08, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Not to be confused with Trescowe, by Tre, Pol and Pen shall ye know Cornishmen... Alansplodge (talk) 19:33, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Chandrabindu

(I'm not sure if this belongs in RDL or RDC, because I don't know if it something real in the notation, or an artifact of the Google keyboard. But I thought I'd ask here first). These two look different (and Duolingo treats them as different) but I'm not sure if they are different things, or if the second is Google keyboard getting it wrong:

अँ 
अंँ

I created them both on the Hindi Google keyboard on my phone: the first by entering अ and then holding on the anusvara button. I get the second by completing the word including the anusvara, and then separately holding the anusvara button. Does anybody know if these reflect a real distinction in Devanagari? ColinFine (talk) 18:24, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

The bottom character is actually अं with an extra chandrabindu on top. I'm not a Devanagari expert (disclaimer: I know essentially nothing about South Asian languages), but a friend of mine who speaks Hindi pointed out that nasalizing अं would probably be redundant. GalacticShoe (talk) 19:04, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I see. So it's generating something that it shouldn't. (The reason this is happening is that the predictive text on the Hindi keyboard puts the visarga in, but never puts the chandrabindu, and Duolingo objects; so I either have to enter the word sound by sound, or I have to go back and add the chandrabindu - and I see now that it's adding without removing the visarga, which is plain wrong. That's not the only problem with its Hindi predictive text: it often uses a short ु when it should be a long ू ). Thank you for clarifying. ColinFine (talk) 19:54, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

May 3

invisible word breaks in Chinese

When I double-click on text, a word is selected. But Chinese is written sans spaces. If I double-click on a string of three or more Chinese characters, one or two characters are selected; and I cannot get overlapping pairs by double-clicking on different characters. Many modern Chinese words are two characters … but how does my browser (or OS) know which pairs are words? I have not found evidence of hidden zero-width breaks. —(If it is the sense of the assembly that this belongs in Computing, I will of course move it there.) —Tamfang (talk) 00:09, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Probably from a word list; there's nothing in the writing system itself which would indicate this as far as I know... AnonMoos (talk) 00:31, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

You don't say which OS but this is the sort of thing modern OSes have built in. MacOS e.g. the OS can translate any text you can select – including text in images – so it makes sense it helps you select blocks of text which makes sense to translate, by e.g. treating 'words' of two characters as single blocks. To do so it probably has to parse not just one or two characters but those surrounding it, however much is needed. --217.23.224.20 (talk) 11:03, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

This was really exciting actually! Firefox recently pushed an update allowing the selection of text by word in unspaced languages. If I had to guess, you either use Firefox or another app where this was recently implemented, As someone who's only been learning Chinese for a few years, I will soon be shocked that people used software for so long that didn't have this ability. Remsense诉 11:21, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

WHAAOE: Text segmentation Aecho6Ee (talk) 22:21, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Building upon the Firefox thing above, apparently, the relevant update was 122.0, where they call it "language-aware word selection." It is controlled by the flag intl.icu4x.segmenter.enabled, which means the feature is apparently using the ICU4X Unicode library and of that, the segmenter module. Looking at the code (or reading the comments, rather), the segmenter is apparently "using the LSTM model when available and the dictionary model for Chinese and Japanese." Aecho6Ee (talk) 22:21, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Neat, thanks for explicating! Remsense诉 22:55, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Russian sentence?

Dear hive-mind. I came across this sentence "[...] Павла Григорьевича Г. (род. около 1861), привлекавшегося в 1885 Варшавским губ. жанд. управлением к дознанию по второму делу «Пролетариата»." (https://imwerden.de/pdf/minuvshee_02_1986__ocr.pdf). Does this mean that Pavel Grigorevich was recruited by Warsaw Gendarmerie to intervene in the Proletariat case, or that he could have been arrested or accused in the case? -- Soman (talk) 11:44, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

[15] indicates that he was investigated. --Soman (talk) 11:59, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Entertainment

April 24

Star Wars arms buildup

As of around 25 BBY (Before the Battle of Yavin), the Galactic Republic's Judicial Forces (it didn't have an actual Navy at the time) had a very small and poorly armed fleet and had to get assistance from private corporations even to deal with nuisance enemies like space pirates. But at the time of the Battle of Yavin, the Imperial Navy apparently had around 25,000 Star Destroyers. Those are huge ships with huge crews. Does the Star Wars literature record how that buildup took place? To what extent was Kuat Drive Yards (the shipbuilder) under Imperial control? It apparently predated the Empire and the predecessor Republic by many millenia. I'm not all that familiar with the Star Wars universe but have been reading some fiction set in it, and this question came up. Thanks. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:6CE6 (talk) 16:26, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

The Star Destroyers were probably built by the Empire over a 19-year period by the great shipyards of Badcon Tinuity and Plotre Quirements. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.15} 188.220.144.58 (talk) 04:34, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

How many planets are there in the Galactic Republic? What's their population? I mean, astronomically speaking, a galaxy could very well have a population of 10²⁰, in which case I wouldn't be impressed by any galactic fleet of fewer than 10¹⁰ star destroyers. And they would be built by a billion different shipyards and all be slightly different due to ambiguities in the specs.

In other words: they just pulled some number out of their hat and hoped the viewers/readers wouldn't pay too much attention. PiusImpavidus (talk) 08:48, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the responses. I get the impression though (e.g.from Wookieepedia) that the SW backstory is very detailed about the cost of different types of ships, their armaments, etc. I'm not sure about the galactic economy as a whole. The premise of the movie series though, is that the Republic was quite thinly spread and strapped for resources, helped along by corruption and Sith influence at the top that were trying to make it fail on purpose. Then it collapsed and the Empire emerged in its place after some wars. So it seems reasonable to hope that the Empire's rise (including where its resources came from) is documented somewhere. Oh well. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:6CE6 (talk) 19:15, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

April 25

Songs With Swung Beats

I'm trying to make a playlist of songs which are NOT in the jazz or swing genres, but which DO have a swung beat. My criteria are:

• Massive hits (or TV/film themes) everyone will have heard of preferred to obscure tracks.
• Nothing from before about 1960.
• Nothing in the jazz or swing genres.
• Very obviously swung beats, closer to a pure shuffle, and consistent through the song, are preferred to anything more complex. (An example of this is that I rejected The Lion Sleeps Tonight because it seems to me the rhythm varies between verse and chorus.)
• Where an artist has embraced swing as a genre (Rod Stewart or Robbie Williams for example) their other works are still good for my list.
• Within those criteria, the more eclectic the list the better.
• I appreciate there are squillions of potential answers. But I only need 30 or so.

So, does anyone have any suggestions for a list that begins:

• The Beatles - Revolution
• The Beatles - With a Little Help from My Friends
• Madonna - Cherish
• Queen - Killer Queen
• Murray Gold's version of the Theme from Doctor Who?

AndyJones (talk) 12:40, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

How do you feel about David Bowie's Rebel Rebel? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.144.58 (talk) 17:48, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

If you can tolerate "The Hustle" by Van McCoy, it would probably qualify; as would "Wake Me Up Before You Go-Go" by Wham!. --136.54.106.120 (talk) 02:15, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Would this qualify?[16] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:53, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Wow, some amazing music there, thank you! I especially loved the Bowie and the ELO. However I don't think any of the suggestions made so far belong on my playlist because, so far as I can count, I don't think any of them has a swung beat, which is my primary criterion. I'm not doing anything clever to assess them - just looking them up on YouTube then playing them while tapping out the rhythm with my finger on the corner of the desk. But I'm pretty confident none of them qualify. To verify I wasn't going mad I googled the sheet music for Rebel Rebel, and that shows it as not swung. AndyJones (talk) 18:27, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Or "swing". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:35, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

I have thought of a strategy for generating suggestions for my playlist. A foxtrot is generally danced to a swing beat, so if I go to the Wikipedia page for any season of Strictly Come Dancing (or presumably, by extension, of Dancing with the Stars) then check out what songs were used for foxtrots, rejecting any that don't fit my criteria, then that throws up some which are exactly what I'm looking for, and are not already on my radar. The first few I found by that method were:

• All About You by McFly
• Perfect by Fairground Attraction
• Love Really Hurts Without You by Billy Ocean
• Everywhere by Fleetwood Mac (which I won't be using)

And I'm still open to more suggestions from here. AndyJones (talk) 10:03, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Taers For Fears- Everybody Wants To Rule The World

Toto- Hold The Line

Alannah Myles- Black Velvet

George Thorogood and the Destroyers- Bad To The Bone

Robert Johnson- Cross Road Blues

Billy Ocean- When The Going Gets Tough, The Tough Get Going

Huey Lewis & The News- Stuck With You

Sara Bareilles- Love Song

Mariah Carey- Vision Of Love

Dropkick Murphys- I'm Shipping Up To Boston

The "Chili's baby back ribs" jingle

Brownsville Station- Smokin' In The Boys' Room

MC Hammer- Addams Groove

America- A Horse With No Name

Stevie Wonder- Higher Ground

Booker T & The MG's- Green Onions

Billy Joel- Tell Her About It

To name a few. 68.97.179.23 (talk) 14:55, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Brilliant! Thank you. AndyJones (talk) 12:28, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Wow, that's an amazing list, and really eclectic. If you care (although why should you?) the only ones from there that I rejected were Billy Joel (because I couldn't count it), Robert Johnson (really difficult to count, and failed my date parameters), and the Toto and the Mariah Carey because they both seem to me (who is no expert) to be more a slow blues than a swing, which is to say that the rhythm hits all 12 of the notes in a bar of 4 triplets (although the Toto one clearly more complicated than that). But I want them for when I make my slow blues playlist! AndyJones (talk) 17:04, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm still trying to understand what a swung beat is. You mentioned that between the verse and chorus of The Lion Sleeps Tonight, one is swung and the other is not. Can you say which is which? And for some reason I thought of the rhythm of Big Bad Voodoo Daddy's eponymous song, but the article about them says they are a swing band, so I guess that doesn't count. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:6CE6 (talk) 23:32, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

In swing, you leave a gap between the main beat and the offbeat. There is a range of complexity, but at its simplest (sometimes called a "shuffle") start by imagining an 8-beat, which simply divides each of the four beats of the bar into two quavers, so there would be eight notes in each bar, evenly spaced:

1&2&3&4&

To swing it, instead divide each beat into triplets:

1&a2&a3&a4&a

But then only play eight of those, the "a" and the main beat:

1 a2 a3 a4 a

And then repeat that again and again throughout the song:

1 a2 a3 a4 a1 a2 a3 a4 a1 a2 a3 a4 a1 a2 a3 a4 a

...and you've got a swing beat. Imagine that's what the drummer is playing on the hi-hat all the way through while she and the other musicians do their stuff. AndyJones (talk) 12:36, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

• We have articles about the related genres, but the one about the rhythm is Swing time. AndyJones (talk) 12:45, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
• It has this diagram to show what I was just trying to explain, in notation (and with audio):

Basic shuffle rhythm play^ⓘ

AndyJones (talk) 12:55, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

• Ihe Beatles' "I've Just Seen A Face" —136.54.106.120 (talk) 13:53, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
  • Good one! AndyJones (talk) 12:31, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

April 29

Rare book message board

Other than Reddit, which I have been using, does anyone here use any rare book message boards? I want to discuss some very specific issues with rare books that I do not expect anyone here to know. For example, Ben Hur first edition had a star cover and a flower cover. Which came first? Why two covers? Is one preferred over the other? 75.136.148.8 (talk) 13:50, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

There was rec.books.collecting way back but it is probably dead by now. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:6CE6 (talk) 10:10, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

https://www.i2pn2.org (a free usenet server) lists rec.collecting.books among groups available. TrogWoolley (talk) 10:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

April 30

Where can a person find what Simpsons characters appeared in a scene for no reason?

I have this memory of a book or web site telling us all the things we might have missed in episodes of The Simpsons. With the ability to record and freeze, we can see a lot more than we used to. For example, many scenes have characters from the show who don't have any reason for being there. They don't have lines but they're just there. I have no idea how to do a search for such a thing.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 22:04, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

The Simpsons Wiki over at Fandom perhaps? --Ouro (blah blah) 06:16, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Your criteria "for no reason" makes this impossible to answer. As an example, Larry showed up in many scenes in Moes bar with no obvious reason. No lines. Just sitting at the bar and drinking beer. But, it wasn't for NO reason. In a recent episode, the entire point of his character is that he was always in the bar, but was not interacted with. Then, he died and the remaining bar regulars pondered their relationship with him. So, it was all a build-up for that episode. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 16:19, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

When I say "for no reason" the big example that comes to mind is when the family is in church. Nearly everyone on the show is shown in that church at the Sunday service. Even people we wouldn't think of as religious. Dr. Hibbert has a different and more lively church, and yet he is sometimes shown at the Simpsons' church. There are numerous examples. Before there was the Internet as we know it, I recall someone listing all the stuff we might not have noticed if we didn't record and freeze. I was hopping someone still did that.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 20:49, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

May 1

Monk-related question

In an episode of Monk, there's this church where T.K. and Stottlemeyer were going to get married. In that scene, an explosion occurs among a pile of gifts right after Randy finishes playing the steel pan. Where was this filmed? TWOrantula^TM (enter the web) 21:39, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Looking at screenshots posted online, I see St. Brendan Church in many of them. It is at 310 South Van Ness Avenue in San Francisco. Does that look correct to you? 75.136.148.8 (talk) 16:16, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Yep! That's the one. I even looked up the Wikipedia page for it. TWOrantula^TM (enter the web) 01:09, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

At that address in San Francisco, Google Maps shows a car-repair place. But at the same street address in Los Angeles is St. Brendan Catholic Church, Los Angeles. That would be the one. I believe that Monk, like many TV shows, often filmed scenes in Los Angeles although it was set elsewhere, in this case San Francisco. --142.112.220.50 (talk) 22:04, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

May 2

Witch of the Phantom

Hello! I wonder if anyone can identify a particular figure of the classic Phantom cartoon. I remember having a copy of the Phantom once were the Phantom became involved in a witch trial: a woman was being persecuted for sorcery as a witch, and falsely accused of eating children. This album would have been from the 1980s or 1990s: the strips were still black-and-white. I expect it would have been an adventure of the 3th-5th Phantom, considering the time period. I lost that album as a child and have tried to find it, but I don't know which number it was and what the episode was called. Can anyone help? Thanks!--92.35.238.97 (talk) 23:57, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

May 3

Miscellaneous

April 19

Smoking on an airplane in the 1960s

Do we have to stop smoking during take-off₤ and landing? -- Toytoy (talk) 01:09, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes.

You have a time machine? Clarityfiend (talk) 09:59, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, myself (I was there at the time). DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 19:36, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Smoking is not allowed during take-off or landing or when the illuminated signs read "No Smoking", nor at any time in the toilets. Ash trays are provided in the arms of the chairs. On leaving the aircraft, do NOT smoke until you are inside the terminal building.

SAFETY ON BOARD - early 1960s passenger safety instructions, AustAir Jet Services. Alansplodge (talk) 10:33, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

There was reasoning behind it. The materials used in planes and airports were flammable. It was a lot of wood and glue. Even if it didn't catch fire, they didn't want little burn holes in everything. Smaller planes are affected more by turbulence. So, having smokers dropping cigarrets during takeoff and landing was an issue. Further, having them toss their cigarette on the floor and stamp it out, burning the carpet in the airport, was a problem. One solution is an ashtray. If we assume most smokers are willing to use an ashtray instead of just tossing the butt on the floor, the burns will be reduced. Because there is no way to truly stop smokers from smoking on flights, ashtrays are still required on many flights. Some people ask why we have them if you aren't allowed to smoke. They are there because some people are not capable of survining a flight without smoking and need the ashtray to avoid burning things by doing something stupid like dropping a lit butt in the trash full of paper towels and tissues. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 12:14, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Have you been on a flight in the last couple of years on which smoking, while not allowed, was condoned? You can get arrested for that and be put on a no-fly list.^[17] There are ashtrays on the lavatory doors, but not elsewhere.  --Lambiam 13:26, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

I can't afford to fly around, but my brother works with international doctor programs and does experience smoking on flights. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 14:19, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

I suppose that if somebody DOES illegally light-up, there needs to be a place where it can be safely extinguished. Alansplodge (talk) 11:16, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

That's why there are ashtrays on the lavatory doors.  --Lambiam 18:33, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

And airliners may sometimes be sold or leased out or chartered to organisations which will permit smoking? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.134.31 (talk) 19:36, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

I would be very surprised if that were the case. The no-smoking rules are set by a country's ministry's of transportation (or equivalent agency) and apply to all aircraft operating on its territory, privately-chartered ones included. Xuxl (talk) 13:52, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

But, Xuxl, unless all such national ministries worldwide enforced non-smoking when an aircraft's cabin was last fitted out, there would have remained the possibility of it being (e.g.) chartered to operate in a territory where smoking was permitted, in which case one would have wanted the ashtrays to be available. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.134.31 (talk) 15:36, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Try to find a territory where smoking on an airplane is allowed. ICAO bans smoking on all flights between member countries indirectly, by treating smoking as an act against the safety of the aircraft, which is already banned. The same resolution (from 1993) that put forward this interpretation urges all member countries to ban smoking on domestic flights as well. See here for a summary. Xuxl (talk) 17:24, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

My favorite memory of sitting in the non-smoking section on a TWA flight is that the smoking section was the next row over. Never made any sense. Back then, smoking was so common that it was dangerous to wear short-sleeved shirts and shorts, because if you ever waited in any kind of line (queue to others), there was a very high chance someone in front of you or in back of you would be smoking and could accidentally burn you with the red hot cherry of their lit cigarette. By the time I was ten years of age, I had several burn scars on my legs and arms from this exact situation. Viriditas (talk) 23:01, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

April 20

Random booming sound outside?

So yesterday, I heard this booming noise that kinda sounded like a firework after it exploded. It was 10:30 PM, clear skies, just another regular day. After I heard the noise, I went to Google and searched "what's that booming noise I heard outside" and pulled up a video saying it was because of snow pushing against the road. I was like, "Bro, what? We don't have snow where I'm from." (which is California.) Have any of you experienced the same thing? Thanks, TWOrantula^TM (enter the web) 14:38, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Kyiv? ——Serial Number 54129 14:42, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Nope, I'm from California. Also, we don't have any bombs (as far as I know). TWOrantula^TM (enter the web) 14:44, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Dang it. I think I misinterpreted your response. TWOrantula^TM (enter the web) 14:44, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

I've heard that sort of thing in the Northeast US. Don't know what it was. Jc3s5h (talk) 15:11, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Sonic boom? DuncanHill (talk) 15:14, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Older Wikipedia editors finally going out more...? Martinevans123 (talk) 17:20, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Sonic boom sounds likely. I was woken up by a loud bang in the middle of the night a few years ago, it turned out to be two RAF fighter jets that had been scrambled to investigate an unresponsive airliner (nowhere near a military airbase). Alansplodge (talk) 21:22, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

It could be an earthquake that was too small to feel. Presumably there is a web site where you could check for that. --142.112.220.50 (talk) 19:20, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Where I was yesterday here in south-eastern Australian there were a lot of booms, but we knew they were from bird-scaring "cannons" (usually propane based) to keep birds away from grape and other fruit crops. But I suspect it's not the season for ripe fruit in your area. Maybe something similar though. HiLo48 (talk) 23:44, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

If it sounded like a firework what makes you think it wasn't just a firework? And why do you think a worldwide web search engine would know what's happening at that instant at some unspecified location? Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:06, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, for one, I didn't see any bright lights in the sky. Also, it's not Fourth of July. I used Google because... well, it was the only idea I had xd TWOrantula^TM (enter the web) 19:07, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Many things can boom and be audible from quite far away. Hail cannons (no reason to believe that they work, but enough farmers believe it anyway), boulders tumbling down a mountain, mining, demolition work (not that likely at 22:30, but they may have waited for good weather), criminals blowing up each other's property (or, accidentally, innocent people's property), fireworks (illegally set off) to celebrate a victory of one's favourite sports team, accidental gas explosions, labs making ecstasy or crystal meth blowing up, military exercises ... Endless possibilities. Maybe you can look around to see any damage in your area, check the local news or poll the local gossip. PiusImpavidus (talk) 09:23, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

A transformer explosion is quite loud and not uncommon. See [18] for some information. —Amble (talk) 04:09, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

TrademarkedTWOrantula, I too live in California and the state gets tremendous amounts of snow in its many high mountain ranges. I live in the Northern Sierra Nevada and snow is commonplace in my county. Cullen328 (talk) 18:16, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

You'll have to write it off as a USP (Unidentified Sonic Phenomenon). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.144.58 (talk) 20:58, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

I hear these things all the time. They always turn out to be the echoing reverberation of garbage trucks dumping or picking up their loads, or some kind of construction equipment. One of the reasons people get obsessed with this is because when the conditions are right, the sound can travel a long distance, making it seem like the boom is nearby, when it could be a mile or a kilometer away. Viriditas (talk) 21:21, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

April 23

Are these actual gold bars or what?

The Toronto Pearson International Airport heist of 2023 has been in the news again recently because a number of people have been arrested for the crime. A large part of what was stolen consisted of bars of gold, which have not been recovered (police believe the gold was melted down so it could not be traced). Since it would be impossible to photograph the actual gold that was stolen, news reports have often illustrated the theft with other bars of gold—for example, these photos: [19] [20] [21] [22] [23]

My question is about this photo [24] which I saw used in that way. It caught my eye because I've never seen a depiction of bars of gold shaped like that: for one thing, they would not stack together well. The color also looks a bit odd, but as the other photos show, that could be a matter of lighting. What the shape of those objects does remind me of is cases for eyeglasses. Is it possible that they are actually gold-colored cases of plastic or something, intended to hold small bars of gold? Or are there actual gold bars that shape, or what? Just curious. --142.112.220.50 (talk) 16:20, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

The article gold bar discusses minted bars (which are very finely made, by cutting and pressing a flat gold sheet) and cast bars, which is what you get when you pour metal into a mold - and are thus rather irregular. The bars in your photo look, broadly, like the latter. Gold is sold (at retail) in some pretty small sizes, such as 1 or 5 gm, so that might very well be what that photo shows. Gold bars for sale (legitimately) will almost always be stamped with the originating mint's name, the mass and purity, and often a serial number - those in that last photo don't. So it's certainly not impossible that the photo (which is surely either a file photo or a stock photo) is of actual small-mass cast gold ingots. But (as with all stock photos) it's certainly possible that it's just any old thing shown as an illustration. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 20:34, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Good point about the absence of stamped text. It occurred to me to see where the earliest instance tineye.com could find of that same image was: it turned out to be yahoo.com, and using the Wayback Machine to read it, I found that it was a Bloomberg news item from 2022. And it showed the image without a caption, so I'm still none the wiser as to what it actually shows. --142.112.220.50 (talk) 07:39, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

At first I thought it was an image from Stable Diffusion, but then I looked at reverse image search. The caption is clearly available in the Bloomberg news item and is credited to professional photographer Anindito Mukherjee. The article was published in March 2024, not 2022.[25] As it turns out, your suspicion that this was just a matter of lighting is correct. This image of gold from 2014 demonstrates the same lighting, albeit from a different angle. I seem to recall a photo of silver bars demonstrating similar lighting properties. Viriditas (talk) 03:22, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm glad you found a photo credit, but the caption does not actually say what the objects in the photo are, and that's clearly a reuse of the image since one image here is the one from 2022 that I was talking about. And the lighting might explain the color, but not the non-stackable shape of the things. --142.112.220.50 (talk) 05:52, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Take a look at the second image I linked to above. To me, they are the same kind of gold. Viriditas (talk) 20:00, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

It might be, but I don't think it's clear. Anyway, thanks for thinking about it. --142.112.220.50 (talk) 07:57, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Take another look! I spent about ten minutes comparing the two images. Look closely at the rounded edges. I'm convinced they are the same. The lighting is super deceptive, and if I hadn't seen things like this before, I would have been thrown off. Although most people notice these things in photographs, I've seen this kind of thing in real time with just my eyes. In the 1980s, I was exposed to the work of M. C. Escher for the first time, and this is the kind of thing he would play around with. Viriditas (talk) 08:31, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

April 24

NorCal or SoCal?

Question: Are any of these cities NorCal or SoCal?

• San Jose
• Morgan Hill
• Aptos
• Redwood City
• Crescent City
• Watsonville

Follow-up question: Where/what divides California into two? TWOrantula^TM (enter the web) 04:44, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

See SoCal and NorCal. 41.23.55.195 (talk) 06:27, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Few people seem to be able to agree on where the dividing line between Northern and Southern California lies, or if it exists at all.

From Does this curious spot mark the dividing line between Northern and Southern California? Alansplodge (talk) 11:04, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

What about East California? DuncanHill (talk) 18:25, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

The coastal elites have a one-dimensional view of California, in the sense that they really only consider moving along one axis, which is called North/South but is really more Northwest/Southeast. That said, there is indeed an Eastern California, and it's lovely, particularly along Highway 395. --Trovatore (talk) 20:10, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

In reality, there's no such thing as "coastal elites". The term was, ironically enough, invented by conservative elites to divide and conquer voting districts. Although the term has been around for a while and has a long political history, Rush Limbaugh was primarily responsible for popularizing the term to the public. And as with most things traced to Limbaugh, it is mostly fictional. Viriditas (talk) 02:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

While I think you and I have sharply different politics, still, in this case I was using the term a bit tongue-in-cheek. --Trovatore (talk) 22:00, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

I knew you were. Just wanted to point out the obvious. I can still hear Limbaugh's booming voice yelling about "coastal elites" into his EIB microphone, circa 1993. Viriditas (talk) 22:17, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

As a direct response, I would consider all of those cities to be NorCal, with the possible exception of Watsonville, which is arguably Central Coast. --Trovatore (talk) 20:11, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree with this. Accepting that the boundary between Northern California and Southern California is fuzzy, there is no possible definition that would put any of the first five in Southern California. Crescent City is only 20 miles south of the California-Oregon border, so is definitely NorCal. San Jose and Redwood City are part of the San Francisco Bay Area, which is also definitely NorCal. Depending on your definition, Morgan Hill is also part of the Bay Area or very close to it. Watsonville is the only one that is arguable, but if I had to choose between NorCal and SoCal, I'd call it NorCal. CodeTalker (talk) 18:07, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

I have lived in Northern California for 52 years and readily agree that there is no clear boundary line between Northern California and Southern California. But Watsonville is in Santa Cruz County, universally considered to be part of Northern California. Watsonville is only 55 miles from San Jose, the biggest city in Northern California. Cullen328 (talk) 18:29, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

If Herb Caen was still around, he would have a snappy answer for this conundrum. For me personally, you know you're over the Northern border and into central territory when you start seeing the "I miss Reagan" and "Hunting is not a crime" stickers on pickup trucks. Viriditas (talk) 20:16, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Let's put it this way — if you insist on dividing the whole state into Northern and Southern with no Central, then sure, Watsonville is Northern, no doubt. But if you include the Central Coast and Central Valley as separate regions, then I think Watsonville is Central Coast, whereas Santa Cruz might still be Northern. --Trovatore (talk) 21:54, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

I used to get all my strawberries from Watsonville, and at one time, I think all of the commercial strawberries in NoCal were from Watsonville (that changed a long time ago, most are from Mexico now, thanks NAFTA). I personally always thought of Monterey Bay as the border of the central coast, with Watsonville having its roots in the northern part of the state for various historical reasons. Viriditas (talk) 22:25, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

It's a close call. On reflection I think I agree. If I wanted to cut out a "Central California" that conflated the coast with the Central Valley, I'd probably draw its northern border from Monterey to Mammoth Lakes, and its southern border from, oh I don't know, Santa Maria to Ridgecrest or something.

If I'm forced into a two-region model, I'd draw a line from San Luis Obispo to, maybe, Bishop. --Trovatore (talk) 00:05, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

April 26

Competitive gardening

I am reading here and there about a tradition of competitive gardening in Britain, but I suspect it traces farther back to other countries. We have no article on competitive gardening so there's nothing for me to refer back to on Wikipedia. My question is this: how did this "sport" arise, and why were (or are) the British so keen on it? Viriditas (talk) 02:45, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

See The Big Allotment Challenge and [26].2A00:23C5:E12F:5300:686F:8285:5E66:FB1B (talk) 11:26, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Also Britain in Bloom, which I see was based on the French Concours des villes et villages fleuris, so the UK has competition in that area, so to speak. There are also horticultural aspects of the County show, as well as more local shows and festivals in towns and villages. The Chelsea Flower Show (referenced in the previous answer) is the pinnacle of quite a large pyramid. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 12:52, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

And for the 'Formula One' of competitive gardening, you might consider Chatsworth House § Park and landscape, and its peers (pun intended). -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 12:56, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 19:43, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Note, if anyone is interested in this topic, I have been referred to Roderick Floud, the author of An Economic History of the English Garden (2019). Viriditas (talk) 19:27, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

(Lack of) mustard for New Yorkers?

Per our article on McDonald's stuff, how come their hamburger, cheeseburger +varients, and ¼pounder are al served without mustard, as the article tells us three or four times, 'in all or a large portion of the New York City region'? ——Serial Number 54129 13:08, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Every article I found chalked it up to customer preference from customer surveys in the 70s. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 15:06, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

This is one of those absurd takes that I will never, ever get. The taste preferences, demographics, and food choices of the New York metropolitan area have changed drastically in the last 50 years. If you were to take someone, let's say in their mid-20s, put them in a time machine, and take them back to 1970s New York and tell them to spend a day trying food all over town, virtually none of their current, 2024-taste preferences would share anything remotely similar with the 1970s. Even the pizza would taste different. Food science, additives, tastes, flavor profiles, and choices have changed so much over the intervening years, that it would be like visiting a different country. There's also the fact that while there were exceptions, food choices were extremely limited up until that point. I remember walking around the city at that time, and your choices basically amounted to steak dinner, Chinese (which bears very little resemblance to west coast Asian cuisine today), Italian, Greek, American (burgers, hot dogs, deli), and well, that was about it. Viriditas (talk) 20:06, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Chacun a youse gout. Clarityfiend (talk) 13:20, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

April 28

Anglo American Plc Shareholding

On your website, Wikipedia, it states that Anglo American Plc is owned by Vedanta Resources with 20% of the shares. Have the Oppenheimer's relinquished control of Anglo American? 197.90.65.132 (talk) 14:53, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

What is Anglo American Plc? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:03, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia it is "a British multinational mining company with headquarters in London, England. It is the world's largest producer of platinum, with around 40% of world output, as well as being a major producer of diamonds, copper, nickel, iron ore, polyhalite and steelmaking coal. The company has operations in Africa, Asia, Australia, Europe, North America and South America. Anglo American has a primary listing on the London Stock Exchange and is a constituent of the FTSE 100 Index. The company has a secondary listing on the Johannesburg Stock Exchange. In the 2020 Forbes Global 2000, Anglo American was ranked as the 274th largest public company in the world". It is very famous. DuncanHill (talk) 15:06, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Anyway, It looks like they were down to under 2% of Anglo in 2010. DuncanHill (talk) 15:22, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

April 29

is there a list of seamounts of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge?

I can't find one. 115.188.127.196 (talk) 115.188.127.196 (talk) 05:05, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

We have Category:Seamounts of the Atlantic Ocean but presumably they are not all on the MAR. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:01, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

May 1

Do the IBM Watson videos with the different robots still exist, or are they gone?

Over a decade ago, I once saw some videos that featured several fictional robots that were each interested in doing something that Watson could already do. In each video, one of the robots was interviewed. For example, one video showed a robot talking about how it wants to help improve air quality in Beijing, to which the interviewer responds that Beijing's smog problem is "a bit more complicated than that". In another video, another robot talks about how "Back in my day, vacuum tubes were" and I forget the rest of what it said, but I hope you get the idea. – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 15:36, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

May 2

What is the most notable Chinese knockoff of Lucky Charms?

I mean specifically something that originated from China which is very similar to Lucky Charms, and is as of 2024 not illegal to trade in China. Oh and if that cereal has a wikipedia article on the English wikipedia I would appreciate it if you link it to me so I can read about it. Thank you. Blaze The Movie Fan (talk) 19:01, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Courtesy link: Lucky Charms —Tamfang (talk) 23:53, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

This is an odd question because China is not known for cereal or for a culture of eating cereal. Do you mean a different Asian country perhaps? Viriditas (talk) 23:57, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

No I mean China specifically. Blaze The Movie Fan (talk) 01:20, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm trying to picture a Chinese leprechaun. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:29, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

The reactionary running dogs are after me Lucky Charms! They're communistically delicious. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:06, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

What is the term for conscious awareness of the body?

I'm asking this question because I keep reading and hearing about this topic, yet I've never once seen anyone describe it with an appropriate clinical name, although I'm sure one exists, and I would be curious if we have an article about it here on Wikipedia. To backup a bit with an example of what I'm talking about, I was just reading about the untimely death of film editor Sally Menke in 2010. She unknowingly decided to go hiking on the warmest day of the year in September, in Los Angeles, and sadly died from complications related to hyperthermia. She had a hiking buddy at the time who realized that the weather was too warm and turned back, but Menke decided to keep going, which is thought to have led to her death.

I bring this up as an example because it's apparently quite common, in the sense that you have two people in the same environment, one who doesn't seem to be aware of the interaction between the outside climatic conditions and their body, and the existential risk this poses, and yet another person, who recognizes the risk and makes adjustments and changes to mitigate the problem and improve one's health. In this respect, I recently heard an interview with someone who survived a close brush with death, and they told the interviewer a variation on this theme that changed their perspective, and I paraphrase: "I finally became cognizant of the relationship between my mind and body." In other words, they were forced to change the way they understood their relationship with the world, as not just a mind in a body, but the synthesis of the two, allowing them to function better in the world.

My understanding is that many people have this disconnect between their minds and bodies, whether it is being aware of the dangers of hiking in high temperatures, swimming in the ocean during rough conditions, or simply not wearing sunscreen on a sunny day. One of the more common examples is someone who has a very intellectually-demanding career that eats poorly, or drinks and smokes to the point of harming themselves. What is this conscious awareness called, one that tells people "hey, don't do x, because it could harm you", that some people simply don't have or don't develop until much later? Viriditas (talk) 20:03, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I think a mindset of personal Exceptionalism can be in play. I sometimes detect this in myself in less-than-life-threatening circumstances – "Hey, this situation does X to most people, but I can probably get away with it this once."

Another factor may be that some people are just not good at interpreting internal physical sensations and relating them to their own well- (or ill-) being.

There may be established terms for these factors. Anyone? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.144.58 (talk) 05:27, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Another factor may be that some people are just not good at interpreting internal physical sensations and relating them to their own well- (or ill-) being.

Yes! That’s exactly what I’m getting at. Viriditas (talk) 06:33, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Eating poorly, drinking, and smoking give people direct, almost immediate pleasure, so they experience positive internal physical sensations. Donuts do taste good, even while they're killing you. There is (a kind of) logic in doing those things. Can't really say the same thing for continuing hiking in what must have been unpleasant conditions. I'm not sure that eating poorly, drinking, and smoking are good analogies. And no, I don't have a name for that behaviour. Sorry. HiLo48 (talk) 07:43, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Some health-impairing conditions, including hyperthermia, may cloud one's judgement. Someone in a sound mind may furthermore not be fully aware of the gravity of the situation because they do not know or do not recognize the risks.  --Lambiam 14:31, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

"hey, don't do x, because it could harm you" is often called situation awareness. Modocc (talk) 16:50, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

The definition given in our article Situation awareness is in a sense more general, but is about knowledge. While important for effective decision making, the objective of the decisions need not be the avoidance of harm to oneself.  --Lambiam 20:17, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Of course and per the article there are plenty of examples of the term being used regarding rational objectives like combat and survival situations. YMMV. Modocc (talk) 21:14, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I can see some overlap, but one major difference I see is that SA is often used in the context of achieving conflict supremacy over the enemy. I think what I'm talking about is much more personal and in terms of the survival of the individual. Although HiLo48 says I'm having a bad analogy day, I've seen this kind of thing also play out when I talk to people about climate change, specifically people who are on the far right. For example, it is well established that the regions in the US that are most at risk for sea level rise have the highest number of climate deniers (Galveston, Grande Isle, Mobile, Myrtle Beach, Savannah, Daytona Beach, Miami). I would assume that given the threat, these areas would have the lowest number of climate deniers, but it appears that they are more engaged in denying reality than in accepting and mitigating it. I'm sure HiLo48 is pulling his hair out over this tortured analogy (rightfully so), but I see something similar with people who go hiking in 113°F (45°C) weather, decide to swim in an ocean during a hurricane, or don't wear sunscreen on the summer solstice. My question is given two people, why does one person accept the reality while another denies it? Viriditas (talk) 21:25, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

If a medal, on both sides will be able to be read as > Chain of Fools! (per Conformity but heat is not in itself a symptom for when Sally Menke's buddy decided returning ) My first thought was we would have to be looking for a derivate of wikt:quale ( with the first quotation there, so nice ) following Self-Awareness possibly a Social construct. Wiktionary, however is also giving access to sensitivity. Sensibility? --Askedonty (talk) 17:51, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I think you're on to something. I myself have been accused of being an HSP, to often extreme levels. I will pursue this line of inquiry. Viriditas (talk) 22:10, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I have been called similar to that, true. I think it was merely coincidental or I prefer to think about it this way. But how do you wonder the why one person agrees and the other doesn't? If they are interacting, they need to singularize most often don't they? The one who knows is the cause for the other keeping on trying the other way. Remove one, the second will be looking for an other potential challenger, well kept fresh in the back of his/her mind. Sometimes that last might not exist - it would reveal itself to be only an ugly name, death, maybe, deception. --Askedonty (talk) 22:59, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, excellent point. I will spend time thinking about this. My first thought is that given the above, they are processing the same experience differently. For example, I dislike being in loud, crowded environments like a busy restaurant because I can’t hear the person next to me, and I can’t carry on a conversation. There is some research (?) that indicates this is a function of age. Younger people may not mind loud, noisy dinner environments as much as older ones. What if, in the original example, Menke and her hiking buddy were of different ages? Viriditas (talk) 23:02, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Certainly good point as well. I just can say I do not see in town the case the who knows also knows he knows and is interested to be usefull to me. I read about it in the literature. --Askedonty (talk) 23:14, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Note, I wonder if anything about the cocktail party effect is applicable here. Viriditas (talk) 23:10, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

May 3

Trump’s fake electors

Hi. Could Trump's indicted fake electors, be part of the next electoral College in their respective states, in the next election? Thank you very much. 151.57.137.28 (talk) 15:31, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

First I've heard of this. I'll have a read now Trump fake electors plot. 2A02:C7B:12B:6B00:6550:C89:C5B8:F933 (talk) 16:29, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Probably. See United_States_Electoral_College#Modern_mechanics for more details EvergreenFir (talk) 16:43, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

It is up to the individual states. Theoretically, they could enact laws barring people indicted or convicted of certain crimes to serve as electors. Other than that, I don't think any formalized rule stands in the way.  --Lambiam 19:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)