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June 4

Source for story recorded in "The Future of the Past" by Alexander Stille

The book The Future of the Past by Alexander Stille contains the following anecdote in the conclusion:

In one sense, traditional societies are more burdened by the past. Much of their mental energy—as in Kitawa (chapter 6)—must be taken up by learning and memorizing the traditions, oral poetry, and incantations of their ancestors. But oral cultures are often wrongly thought to be entirely tradition bound and unchanging. The fact that nothing is written down actually allows them a certain freedom from tradition that written cultures lack. British colonial officials dutifully recorded that in the foundation myth of a certain region of Africa the kingdom's founder had seven sons, which corresponded to the seven territories of the land. When the British came back sixty years later, they were surprised to learn that the local people now insisted that the mythic founder of their kingdom had had five rather than seven sons. When the British pulled out the written document to prove their point, the locals insisted that it was simply mistaken. In the intervening decades, the political situation had changed and the area was now divided into five and not seven territories. The oral tradition responded by changing the myth, while nonetheless maintaining (and no doubt believing) that it was immutable and unchanging.

— Alexander Stille, The Future of the Past

Does anyone know where I can find a source for this anecdote, or more information about the specific region or culture being referenced in this story? I thought it might be from Jan Vansina's Oral Tradition as History, but I haven't been able to find it there so far. Puzzledvegetable^{Is it teatime already?} 02:19, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

"The Gonja nation of Africa was studied by anthropologists as early as the beginning of the twentieth century. The land of the Gonja then consisted of seven main regions. Anthropologists recorded a story of origin of the Gonja nation according to which once upon a time there was a great and famous chief who conquered the country and divided it among his seven sons. Later the British colonial administrative authority reduced the number of regions to five. After a few decades the Gonja people still told the same story of conquest with unbroken pride, with the slight difference that the great chief had five rather than seven sons (Goody and Watt 1963, quoted by Hilton et al. 1996). This sort of ‘rewriting’ is quite common in the history of European nations too, and can be observed at a time of rapid social changes." From The Science of Stories by János László. Routledge, 2006. pp 162-163. "Goody and Watt 1963" is Jack Goody and Ian Watt (1963) ‘The consequences of literacy’, Comparative Studies in Society and History 5: 304–326., and "Hilton et al 1996" is Hilton, D.J., Erb, H.-P., Dermot, M. and Molian, D.J. (1996) ‘Social representations of history and attitudes to European unification in Britain, France and Germany’, in G.M. Breakwell and E. Lyons (eds) Changing European Identities. Oxford: Butterworth Heinemann. DuncanHill (talk) 03:47, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

See our articles Gonja people and Gonja (kingdom). DuncanHill (talk) 03:49, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

The relevant passage from Goody and Watt is:

Organisational changes lead to similar adjustments. The state of Gonja in Northern Ghana is divided into a number of divisional chiefdoms, certain of which are recognised as providing in turn the ruler of the whole nation, When asked to explain their system the Gonja recount how the founder of the state, Ndewura Jakpa, came down from the Niger Bend in search of gold, conquered the indigenous inhabitants of the area and enthroned himself as chief of the state and his sons as rulers of its territorial divisions. At his death the divisional chiefs succeeded to the paramountcy in turn. When the details of this story were first recorded at the turn of the present century, at the time the British were extending their control over the area, Jakpa was said to have begotten seven sons, this corresponding to the number of divisions whose heads were eligible for the supreme office by virtue of their descent from the founder of the particular chiefdom. But at the same time as the British had arrived, two of the seven divisions disappeared, one being deliberately incorporated in a neighboring division because its rulers had supported a Mandingo invader, Samori, and another because of some boundary changes introduced by the British administration. Sixty years later, when the myths of state were again recorded, Jakpa was credited with only five sons and no mention was made of the founders of the two divisions which had since disappeared from the political map.

That was a lot more fun than if Mr Stille had bothered to give references in his book. DuncanHill (talk) 04:14, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

Stille's book is a fun read, but passages like this really frustrated me. Writing something like "the foundation myth of a certain region of Africa" really puzzles me. Did he not actually remember which region it was, and if he did, did he just decide it fit the tone of the book better not to mention it?

Out of curiosity, were you already familiar with this story, or do you have some kind of workflow for finding sources like these, because I really struggle when I encounter these kinds of readings. Thanks. Puzzledvegetable^{Is it teatime already?} 04:54, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

To be perfectly honest my initial reaction was that it was going to be one of those "bees can't fly" or "Pepsi had the world's sixth most powerful navy" kind of facts, and "a certain region in Africa" was the phrase that made me most suspicious, as both precise and meaningless. But I wouldn't be able to call it out unless I had tried to find the original. I tried googling odd phrases from the passage you supplied. Most of my efforts came up with variations on the Tribes of Israel, and the English Heptarchy. Then I tried "five rather than seven sons", and that gave me exactly two hits - this page, and a site which had the János László book. That book as you saw had proper refs so there we were! So my workflow is just to use google, but I have years of experience trying to find answers to questions on these desks, and I seem to be able to come up with the right questions or phrases to ask it. I don't really know how to explain it, other than to say you need to boil down the passage into a few key ideas and work away at variations of them. I knew from experience that pretty much everything under the sun has been ascribed to some "tribe in Africa" or other over the years, either from outright racism or an over-developed sense of the exotic, so I concentrated on the numbers and brothers as being more essential. But there's an awful lot of luck involved. DuncanHill (talk) 09:49, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

June 5

Odin's eye

Was there any historical work or source that mentions or specifies which of Odin's eyes was removed and sacrificed to the Well of Urd/Mimir in exchange for a drink of knowledge? A lot of artwork and popular culture depictions I've seen of the Allfather seems to be wildly back-and-forth about this detail (for example, the video-games Age of Mythology, Odin Sphere, Assassin's Creed: Valhalla, and the film Son of the Mask depict his left eye as missing, while Marvel comics and films, Disney's Gargoyles, the video-games SMITE and God of War Ragnarök, and the televised series Vikings and American Gods, depict his right as the missing eye), and I don't recall any of the Eddas specify which eye he tore out; only that he sacrifices "an eye" to the Well. Which I suppose is evidence that there is no definitive or consistent answer, and that it is left up to interpretation; perhaps the Norse/Germanic peoples (or Snorri himself) really didn't care that hard about which eye it was...

But a part of me feels that wouldn't make much sense, as for comparison, it is very clearly specified that it is Týr's right hand that was bitten off by Fenrir, because from what I understood, there is a cultural symbolism behind that; the right side is the dominant hand for most people in the world, so it was seen by the Norse/Germanic peoples as the weapon-holding hand, the oath-swearing hand; the loss of which was meant to be a profound loss for a war deity who was also associated with loyalty, pledges, laws, and promises between fellow men.

I have heard of a suggestion that Odin gave up a metaphorical or esoteric "mind's eye" instead, but I don't think that the Norse/Germanic peoples held an understanding of aphantasia, considering how expansive and colourful their own mythology is; I don't even know if they understood the concept of a mind's eye to begin with. I have also heard of the argument that the right eye is more likely to be portrayed as missing, as that is processed by the left side of the brain dedicated to logical thought, while the brain's right side is dedicated to abstract and emotional thought; thus, the missing right eye would amplify Odin's powers of creativity and foresight by retaining his left eye. However, I don't think that the Norse/Germanic peoples would know of all that either, and honestly, it feels like a grasping-at-straws effort to use modern knowledge to explain something from mythology, instead of contemporary knowledge that the peoples of the time would know.

What do you guys think of this? 72.234.12.37 (talk) 13:52, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

The question is dicussed here, and the discussion implies that the answer is not part of the mythological canon.  ​‑‑Lambiam 15:44, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

This carving, maybe 1100s, Old Town, Oslo

What I found was: the Finnestorp buckle shows (presumed) Odin with his right eye closed and his left eye open. The Torslunda plates are somewhat too old but (doubtful) Odin, top left, has his right eye damaged. This figure from Lindby is viking-age but the text doesn't specify right or left eye; to me it looks like his right eye. The Funen bracteate has Odin in profile such that only his left eye is visible, as does this other bracteate. This carving is about 100 years post-viking, but it's the right eye again. Score is right eye 6, left eye 0. (Sorry Age of Mythology, I still love you.) By the way, the creative function of the right side of the brain is dubious, and so is the implication that vikings studied brain damage and established the location of Brocca's area eight centuries early, as well as homonymous hemianopsia - and note that it's half the visual field, in both eyes, that's linked to a brain hemisphere; it's not as simple as right eye goes to left brain.  Card Zero  (talk) 19:04, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

What price, Odin asks, must he pay for a drink from the Well of Wisdom that Mimir's head guards? The answer: Your right eye

— Doll, M.A (2011). "The Eye in the Well of Memory". The More of Myth. Sense Publishers. p. 9. wplibrary link

which goes on to discuss some left/right brain symbolism. This would seem to be a good answer from an RS, but i would expect here a citation to a particular translation of a source document. What we get is one to Padraic Colum's Myths of the World. fiveby(zero) 20:36, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

No text specifies which eye was surrendered.

— Price, Neil; Mortimer, Paul (2014). "An Eye for Odin? Divine Role-Playing in the Age of Sutton Hoo". European Journal of Archaeology. 17 (3): 532. wplibrary link

fiveby(zero) 20:52, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

If there was a consistent tradition in contemporary artistic depictions, with every artist having seen older ones, everyone would 'know' it was the right eye (and might refer to the 'fact' orally) without any written text (a rare thing) needing to specify it.

There might also have been an awareness of Ocular dominance (which is self-observable), with an implicit reason within the myth for the likely (70%) dominant eye being the one sacrificed. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.81.243 (talk) 06:22, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

Hey! I am working on a rewrite of the current article and have a little material on this. You can find the sections at the section on Sacrifice and possibly the section on Wisdom. — ImaginesTigers (talk) 06:35, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

When is a book an "autobiography"?

Yesterday's Doctor: An Autobiography was published by the Prairie Press of Winnipeg, MB in 1980, two years after the death of its author, Dr. Samuel Peikoff, who practiced medicine in Winnipeg for a long time and earlier, for a shorter time, in rural Rossburn, MB. It is an account of events of the author's professional life as a physician and surgeon, and only of his professional life. Personal connections not bearing on his professional life are not there. Perhaps the most extreme example is that when he decided for professional reasons to spend a few months in Scotland, he tells us he took his wife and son with him, but never before that in the book did he mention that he had a wife or a son.

Is it normal to call a book like that an "autobiography"? Michael Hardy (talk) 20:27, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

IIRC, Carton de Wiart didn't mention his wife or his VC, and the latter surely had some relevance to his life as a soldier. A biographer, auto or otherwise, has to decide what to leave out. I had a conversation with a historian at a conference a few months ago on similar lines. He gave an example on the lines of "A fly circled the lampshade. The curtains were a faded red velvet, complementing the worn Persian carpeting, on which the Syldavian ambassador lay dead, stabbed by his Ruritanian counterpart." Most of that isn't history, only "the Syldavian ambassador lay dead, stabbed by his Ruritanian counterpart" is. Your good doctor must have felt personal matters were a circling fly or faded curtain. One does read "political biographies", which emphasise the political doings of their subjects, and tend to regard the private lives as little more than Persian carpets, I suppose you could call "Yesterday's Doctor" a medical auto-biography. DuncanHill (talk) 21:16, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

Barry Jones (Australian politician) published an autobiography titled A Thinking Reed: The extraordinary life of Barry Jones, in 2006. He drops a lot of famous names, but their inclusion is inversely proportional to the depth of his personal involvement with them. If he met a celebrity once at a cocktail party, they're in the book. But most of his close political colleagues, with whom he worked for decades, and his first wife, Rosemary, to whom he was married for 45 years and who died shortly before the book was published, rate hardly any mention at all. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:13, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

• I suppose you could argue this closer to a memoir - a collection of one's memories, usually with a limited scope - than an autobiography - a study of a person's life, written by the person themselves - but there's no clear definition of these genres. Smurrayinchester 08:37, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

In my perennial search for the perfect way to organise my home library, this issue has always loomed large. If an autobiography is about their whole life (so far), is that essentially any different from their specific memories of their time at Oxford, or their dissolute decade on the Greek islands? A memoir is a limited type of autobiography, but a more extensive autobiography is not normally called a memoir. There's no one-size-fits-all solution to this intractable problem. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:37, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

Someone with too much money (and ample space) can buy multiple copies of a multi-classifiable title, so as to have a copy for each classification.  ​‑‑Lambiam 13:29, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

Tram tracks ownership in Melbourne

From VicTrack:

VicTrack...owns all railway and tram lines, associated rail lands, track corridors and other infrastructure in the state of Victoria, Australia.

Since much (maybe most?) of our tram network is embedded in the bitumen of major streets, how does the ownership situation work out? Do they own the physical rails whilst the roads themselves are owned by another entity (either VicRoads or local councils), or are the centres of these thoroughfares co-owned by the roads ownership and VicTrack, or something else? (I'm just doubtful that they'd own the entire roadway in the same manner that they own tracks on land where cars aren't allowed.) Obviously everything's owned by the Crown one way or another, and I assume the roads ownership and VicTrack have to cooperate on major maintenance projects regardless of ownership, but I'm specifically interested in the nitty-gritty details. Nyttend (talk) 23:31, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

The articles Street running train and Reserved track are relevant to your questions, but do not go into the geographical and legal details you seek; however, the terms might aid your searching. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.81.243 (talk) 06:35, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

VicTrack has a map of all their land ownership. The full map isn't public, but there's a limited version you can download for Google Earth (or other GIS) in KMZ format here, which might have the info you need. Smurrayinchester 08:25, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

June 8

10 U.S.C. § 12406 to federalize the National Guard

Hello. Donald J. Trump invoked 10 U.S.C. § 12406 to federalize the California National Guard a few hours ago[1][2].

1. I was reading the List of invocations of the Insurrection Act article. Does today's event qualify to be added to this list?

2. Is this the first time in history that 10 U.S.C. § 12406 has been invoked? A quick google search shows no previous historcal events.

Thank you.Epideurus (talk) Epideurus (talk) 03:24, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

From an article published yesterday in The New York Times, updated today:^[3]

It is the first time since 1965 that a president has activated a state’s National Guard force without a request from that state’s governor, according to Elizabeth Goitein, senior director of the Liberty and National Security Program at the Brennan Center for Justice, an independent law and policy organization. The last time was when President Lyndon B. Johnson sent troops to Alabama to protect civil rights demonstrators in 1965, she said.

and

The National Guard was last federalized in 1992, Ms. Goitein said, when President George H.W. Bush sent troops to Los Angeles to control riots after police officers were acquitted in the beating of Rodney King. That deployment was requested by the California’s governor at the time, Pete Wilson.

 ​‑‑Lambiam 06:06, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

What does "federalize" mean? I ask as someone from Australia, another federated nation, where I have never heard or seen the word before. HiLo48 (talk) 23:50, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

The National Guard (United States) is normally operated by the individual states, but the federal government has the power to call on them to perform federal missions. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:57, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

HiLo48, when the US was formed, the original states retained their militias, and each new state formed a militia, but since the militia was under state control, it obviously couldn't go outside state boundaries. (This ensured that states couldn't fight each other with their militias, although an 1830s boundary dispute would have led to militia-militia conflict if the weather hadn't obstructed everything.) In the US Constitution, the states granted Congress an enumerated power over the militia whilst reserving normal control to themselves.) The US historically relied on its state militias for most military purposes and had a tiny regular army, so the enumerated power in question provides for the federal government to assume control over state militia(s) to act under federal control "to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions". Conversely, when our Constitution was enacted, Chapter II Section 69 provided for each state's naval and military departments to be transferred to the Commonwealth (with no exceptions, seemingly?) as soon as proclaimed by Earl Hope, so we don't encounter this concept here. Nyttend (talk) 00:09, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for that detailed explanation. The British colonies that federated to became Australia's states did previously have their own military forces, but it seems that upon federation they happily merged to become the Australian Navy and Army. So the American model is quite unfamiliar to me and most Australians. Just another example of American exceptionalism I guess. HiLo48 (talk) 01:42, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

This is, to some degree, where the Second Amendment came from: To allow "well-regulated" militias the right to keep and bear arms. The implication being an inherent distrust of the central government. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:08, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

Less to allow than to enable. —Tamfang (talk) 13:59, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

I don't think it's really that different. The modern US military is mostly the Army, Navy, and Air Force, all of which are under full-time federal control. People tend to forget about the National Guard except in unusual circumstances. A lot of their role is disaster management rather than military per se. (I was surprised to find there were Guard troops in the first Iraq war; if you'd asked me to guess I would have said they hadn't participated in foreign wars since at least the 19th century, but apparently that isn't true.) --Trovatore (talk) 06:05, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

Actually, US National Guard units were deployed heavily to Iraq for many years. Here is an account. They were also deployed to Afghanistan and Syria, and to various support bases in the Middle East. Over 300,000 National Guard troops were deployed to Iraq. Cullen328 (talk) 06:19, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

I did not know that. Thanks. --Trovatore (talk) 06:39, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

The National Guard also served overseas in both World Wars. See History of the United States Army National Guard. Alansplodge (talk) 14:00, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

Then there is the US Coast Guard, which operates under the authority of the Treasury Department most of the time, but often gets transferred over to the Department of War/Defense during major wars (I think the last time that happened was during Vietnam… but I would have to check). Blueboar (talk) 20:42, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

Isn't the Alabama National Guard still federalized today. —Fortuna, imperatrix 17:41, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

If so, there is no mention of it at Alabama National Guard. That said, their website does use the word "federal" a lot and has a USDOD seal at the bottom, which the corresponding California website does not. --Trovatore (talk) 18:50, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands as a commercial pilot

We have a few details in Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands#Other activities:

Willem-Alexander is an avid pilot and has said that if he had not been a royal, he would have liked to be an airline pilot so he could fly internationally on large-sized aircraft such as the Boeing 747. During the reign of his mother, he regularly flew the Dutch royal aircraft on trips. However, in May 2017, Willem-Alexander revealed that he had served as a first officer on KLM flights for 21 years, flying KLM Cityhopper's Fokker 70s twice a month, even after his accession to the throne. Following KLM's phased retirement of the Fokker 70, he began training to fly Boeing 737s. Willem-Alexander was rarely recognized while in the KLM uniform and wearing the KLM cap, though a few passengers recognized his voice, even though he never gave his name and only welcomed passengers on behalf of the captain and crew.

References

but I would like to know more about his commercial flying activities, both before and after becoming King:

• Did he only pilot internal flights, or overseas? Where?
• Was his identity known to the authorities of those other countries?
• Did he use a regular passport? In what name?
• What name and titles did he use professionally, and how did he introduce himself to passengers?
• If some passengers recognised him, how did this not become a media circus?
• Was he ever involved in a reportable flying incident?
• Is he still flying commercially, or when did he stop?

I suspect Dutch-language sources may have more than those in English, and I'm a monoglot. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:48, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

Details in Dutch sources are scarce.

As of 2017 he had been flying twice a month, for 21 years, for KLM subsidiaries like Martinair and Cityhopper. all short distances.^[4] Destinations were (or included) the UK, Germany and Norway.^[5] As of now, he is looking forward to being retrained for an Airbus A321neo, currently making about three flight a momth as co-pilot in a Boeing 737.^[6][7]  ​‑‑Lambiam 14:19, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

Thanks; are those his destinations, or Cityhopper's? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:21, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

Lambiam's source, auto-translated, says Willem Alexander reportedly works mainly during short flights through Europe (the United Kingdom, Germany, Norway) and avoids long flights that would require him to fly at night. This way he is never too far away from the Netherlands, he should have to be at home in a crisis situation and he can just fly back. This can be lazily verified by looking at it, it's only Dutch, werkt = works and korte = short and lange = long, probably. Which makes vluchten "flights". I expect the last phrase could be better written and should he have to be at home in a crisis situation, he can just fly back.  Card Zero  (talk) 17:57, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

I remember a news report, not too long ago, about the king flying a KLM 737 with football supporters from Amsterdam to Prague. It wasn't publicly announced, but some people recognised him. It's generally known that the king does so regularly, so it isn't really newsworthy and usually not mentioned at all. The gossip press in the Netherlands are better behaved than in the UK.

I suppose Willem-Alexander flies just wherever KLM flies its 737s, provided the destination isn't too sensitive. That would be exclusively abroad, as the only "domestic" route of KLM is to the Caribbean part of the country, which is too far for a 737. PiusImpavidus (talk) 11:12, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

How would all of this work from a passport perspective if he flies to a non-Schengen country? As the King, can he have a diplomatic passport (and if so, does he need it), or can he do everything himself? Our Dutch passport article notes that the passport is formally issued by the Minister of Foreign Affairs on behalf of the King; can he self-certify? The idea of a head of state travelling privately-yet-openly, rather than incognito or as part of a group of dignitaries, seems very unusual. Nyttend (talk) 23:45, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

June 9

Tea-drinking culture

Anthropologists use the term "foodways" to cover social customs and practices related to the consumption of food, ranging from recipes to dining etiquette. Many people use the term "drinking culture" to cover social customs and practices related to the consumption of alcoholic beverages. What about the consumption of non-alcoholic beverages, e.g. tea? I recently read a novel in which a short chapter is called "A Short Chapter About Tea", discussing the characters' tea-drinking habits and preferences, and I'm trying to think how to describe it. Nyttend (talk) 09:52, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

Tea culture has a profound impact on society, influencing social customs, traditions, and even political movements. In different eras and regions, tea is not only a drink, but also a catalyst for communication, hospitality, and meditation. While Japan focuses on precision and beauty, and tea is often tasted in a quiet environment, India values ​​rich flavors and spices, and tea drinking is a communal experience as well as a symbol of refinement and social status. From a philosophical perspective, Japanese and Indian tea cultures are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Japanese tea culture focuses on meditation and ritual, while Indian tea culture focuses on socializing and daily life. Chinese and British tea cultures are somewhere in between, with Chinese tea culture being closer to Japanese and British tea culture being closer to Indian. Stanleykswong (talk) 11:40, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

We have articles on Tea culture (see also Chado aka "Teaism"), Coffee culture, and on Yerba mate. If there is not a word embracing all of these (and other) non-alcoholic beverage-related cultural phenomena, perhaps there ought to be. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.81.243 (talk) 14:37, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

Coffee, tea and yerba mate are the world's three most popular naturally caffeinated drinks.^[8] What seems to be missing from our lexicon is a brief generic term for "naturally caffeinated drink".  ​‑‑Lambiam 15:59, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

Yes, there is no common name for caffeinated beverages. But generally, people would classify tea, coffee, and sometimes yerba mate as caffeinated beverages. In fact, other plant seeds, such as guarana and kola nuts, have higher caffeine content. Why are they not widely accepted as caffeinated beverages by most people? Stanleykswong (talk) 16:39, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

Japanese "high culture" of tea focuses on ritual, but in everyday life "precision and beauty" aren't a large factor in tea drinking in Japan, where it is simply the most common unsweetened drink. Likewise the idea of a matcha latte is unthinkable in high culture but relatively common in daily life. I'm not sure whether the original question intends to limit the conversation to high culture or not, but we are more likely to have articles about ritualized practices than everyday uses. Dekimasuよ! 06:00, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

Yes, you are right, everyday drinks are different from Tea Ceremony (Chado). Busy urbanites may not have time to practice Chado, and all they need is a simple cup of tea or coffee to wake them up in the morning or help digest lunch. In this case, bottled tea or coffee sold in street corner vending machines can meet their needs well. Stanleykswong (talk) 07:16, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

Apropos of nothing in particular, I'll place a general reminder here to review WP:LLMTALK. Dekimasuよ! 08:07, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

So, what I was meaning: is there a term that includes tea culture, coffee culture, alcohol culture, and everything else, including V8 and the cola wars? Looking for the word suggested or wished-for by the IP response, if it exists. Nyttend (talk) 23:39, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

A term in (relatively rare^[9]) use is beverage culture:

• Coffee, with its rich aroma and stimulating qualities, is a cornerstone of beverage culture worldwide.^[10]
• Japan's beverage culture is deeply intertwined with its culinary traditions.^[11]
• To understand the place of tea drinking in the Buddhist monastery and in society more generally, we need to widen our scope from looking at monastic tea rituals so as to understand Song–dynasty beverage culture as a whole.^[12]

 ​‑‑Lambiam 12:59, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

Colonel Durnford's accent

In the film Zulu Dawn, Burt Lancaster portrays Anthony Durnford with what he probably thought was an Irish accent. Do we know what sort of accent Durnford actually had? He was, it is true, born in Co. Leitrim, but his family were not Irish and he was brought up largely in Germany. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 21:39, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

If it's documented, the best place to look would be in the two books by his *ahem* close friend Frances Colenso in which he is apparently central. Being also a British 'army brat', I think it most likely that it would be generic educated southern English, with an overlay of RP (such as it was in the mid-19th century), as would be expected of a Commissioned Officer and which his Father General E. W. Durnford likely also spoke. There are several other British Military Durnfords listed at Durnford; they seem to be generally from the Southern portion of England, and some may be related in ways absent from our articles, and related to Anthony Durnford. This is of course all speculation. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.81.243 (talk) 10:06, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

Our article might be better describing him as Anglo-Irish rather than just plain Irish. Alansplodge (talk) 12:41, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

I don't think he was even that. There doesn't seem to be any family connexion with Ireland, except being posted there in pursuit of their duties. DuncanHill (talk) 21:15, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

June 10

Peter Matthiessen

What was Matthiessen's later opinion of the CIA? Did he ever stop working for the CIA, or claim to stop working for it? Did he regret working for them, have remorse for deceiving people about the Partisan Review? I realize he was a reporter, probably not involved in counterintelligence, but did he assassinate anyone while working for it, or know about assassinations because he worked for the cia? In any case, what happened to his reputation? Are his nonfiction books still trusted?Rich (talk) 12:47, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

Given the nature of Intelligence agencies, I think it's unlikely that most of these questions will have answers that have ever been revealed.

Most intelligence work, to the extent of my knowledge, boils down to information gathering and analysis; I suspect only a very few employees (of whom there have been many) of any Intelligence Agencies have been called upon to assassinate anyone, and such operations would not be routinely known to most of their more humdrum colleagues.

I don't see why his having worked for the CIA would have any bearing on his non-fiction books, except where (if at all) they might have impinged on matters related to US intelligence; about those he might have chosen to, or been obliged to, be less than open, but the same would apply to almost any writer whether a former IA employee or not, and readers should always be aware of this factor. See, perhaps, Covert operation. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.81.243 (talk) 18:32, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

I asked that because the CIA was newer and smaller back then. Could have been much more casual, based on relationships. If we want to know what the CIA was willing to stoop to back then, we should examine the lives of wellknown agents.Rich (talk) 02:07, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

You would need to discover a nexus between his work in one area with another. For example, what does The Snow Leopard have to do with the CIA? If there a pattern of nexuses then OK. But making aspersion-like questions "Are his nonfiction books still trusted?" and "Did he assassinate anyone" without evidence is odd. Simply working for the CIA doesn't make him a bad person who broadly can't be trusted. -- GreenC 19:51, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

I somewhat disagree. A journalist with an agenda is ok to me, but a journalist with a hidden agenda isn't right. And if a book of his like The Snow Leappard had something to do with his cia work, it would make me distrust what he wrote in it. But even if it didn't have anything to udo with his cia work, I would keep in mind he wasn't completely trustworthy about his reporting as a cia agent before, for reasons. How do I know if different reasons won't make him dishonest in The Snow Leopard? Rich (talk) 23:46, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

Also Matthiessen misled some sincere journalists and philosophers who contributed to Partisan Review, not knowing what was up. That's a lot of work they put in.Rich (talk) 23:50, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

Two magazines are being conflated here. Paris Review (the magazine that Matthiessen co-founded and worked at briefly) and the Partisan Review are entirely different publications although both had CIA connections at points during their long histories. Cullen328 (talk) 06:37, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

And the Paris Review was (and is) a perfectly legitimate literary magazine, otherwise it would not have worked as a cover, so the work of other contributors was not 'wasted': the fact that one of its several founders was a CIA agent does not invalidate it or what it published then.

You seem to think that someone who was at one point a CIA (or other IA) operative forever contaminates everything they touch – the World is not like that. Nor is covert activity in the service and interests of one's country necessarily a bad thing. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.81.243 (talk) 10:33, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

Yeah I do think that. Just as I think the CIA putting undercover agents in the Peace Corp, and the FBI putting undercover agents in protest groups is an awful contamination. That's how the world is. Also, look below for some of the information that I requested about Matthiesen's remorse, or at least regret. Rich (talk) 12:13, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

Peter Matthiessen was recruited into the CIA while in college (B.A. Yale 1950).[13] His main assignment was to monitor and report on communist activities in France, particularly among American expatriates and the French left. He stated that he was tasked with “keeping an eye on communist ‘enemies,’ who were… out on the street corners peddling L’Humanité,” the French Communist Party newspaper.[14] In interviews, Matthiessen described his work as “running errands and carrying messages and false passports between agents in Paris”.[15] Matthiessen's life as a writer and spy ended in 1953, after two years. He became disillusioned with the CIA, particularly due to its elitist culture and the anticommunist witch hunts in the U.S., which he found repellent.[16][17] He later described his CIA stint as the only adventure in his life that he regretted, calling it “youthful folly” and explaining that he was motivated by a mix of patriotism and the opportunity to write in Paris.[18] — GreenC 01:14, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

That's a good answer, thank you.Rich (talk) 12:08, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

Academic endowment

The last sentence in Wayne Rosing reads:

In 2010, he partially endowed a professor in theoretical astrophysics at the University of California, Santa Barbara held by Lars Bildsten.

References

This sentence doesn't make sense, to me, and I am not familiar enough with academic credentials to try and clarify it. -- GreenC 19:44, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

I'd read that to mean "he partially endowed a chair in theoretical astrophysics". But US-speak often goes to incomprehensible places, so I dunno. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:31, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

I'd interpret this as a typo for he partially endowed a professorate. The cited source speaks of the "Wayne Rosing, Simon and Diana Raab Chair in Theoretical Astrophysics", so the endowment was made by Rosing and the Raabs. See endowed chair if this isn't familiar to you. Nyttend (talk) 00:13, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

Curiously, the edit adding this info had the edit summary "(endowed a chair) ".

I have changed the wording to, "he co-endowed a chair".  ​‑‑Lambiam 10:18, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

June 11

Al Scates DoB

An IP editor says that Al Scates, an American former volleyball player and coach, was born on June 13, not June 9 as we currently have it. I have asked for a source, but can anyone here find one, please? It would be nice to fix this for the gentleman's upcoming 86th birthday. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:55, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

The video from UCLA's YouTube account, used as a reference in the article, states that he was born on June 13. 68.187.174.155 (talk) 00:07, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

Two sources:

• “I was playing 18 holes of golf by my birthday on June 13, 2011,” he said.^[19]
• Al Scates' page at the International Volleyball Hall of Fame.

‑‑Lambiam 01:06, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

A user named Decafpenguin posted that June 9 date a couple of decades ago,[20] without a source, and the penguin left Wikipedia a year later. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:03, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

Take note. This is what coffee does to a person penguin. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:44, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

Nay, that is what decaffeinated beverages do to a penguin. They're the deoxygenated air or wordless novels of our culinary cornucopia. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 03:56, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

 This section is resolved and can be archived. If you disagree, replace this template with your comment. Thanks, all. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:07, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

June 13

Disputed Sovereignity

Are North and South Korea the only UN member states that dispute the sovereignty of another UN member? Rojomoke (talk) 07:38, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

No, there are quite a few others. See List of states with limited recognition for a comprehensive list. Daveosaurus (talk) 07:51, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

I don't see any other mutual non-recognition like North and South Korea in there. Both have to be member states. Aaron Liu (talk) 11:56, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

Yeah, unless I'm missing something, that article seems to confirm that the Koreas are the only nations with that particular relationship. It's the UN membership that makes it tough; pretty well any breakaway state would qualify otherwise. Matt Deres (talk) 13:36, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

A good number of UN member states dispute the sovereignty of the People's Republic of China, but none of them considers itself the rightful government of China. Nyttend (talk) 21:04, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

Nor have China dispute their sovereignty. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:09, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

June 14

McLaren F1 GTR in 1995

This image and source state that the car was driven by Pierre-Henri Raphanel & Lindsay Owen-Jones at Donington 1995. However, per Racing Sports Cars database, the model under racing number 1 in that livery was driven by Ray Bellm and Maurizio Sandro at that race. Could Raphanel and Owen-Jones be an error? Brandmeister^talk 22:06, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

It could well be: the racingsportscars.com link also shows Raphanel & Owen-Jones as driving the identically liveried #08R, racing No. 16 in that race. Further, that during that season Ray Bellm and Baurizio Sandro Sala (note full name) always drove the #02R car (racing number 1 or 24), while Raphanel and Owen-Jones drove the #04R (Racing No. 3, damaged at Monza) followed by the #08R (racing No. 16 or 25). A mistake by the uploader to Commons seems more likely that one by the site. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.137.14 (talk) 13:23, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

June 15

Looking for joke books and books of common phrases

I finished reading Leil Lowndes' How to Talk to Anyone: 92 Little Tricks for Big Success in Relationships, which points out that as of its publication in 2003, publishers sold books of famous one-liners that businessmen could adapt to build rapport with other businessmen. I would like to ask if anyone here can recommend books like that, but also books of English idioms to rework for rhetorical effect, especially from Shakespeare and the King James Bible. Shushimnotrealstooge (talk) 04:58, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

If you're looking for quotes, we have an entire project devoted to that called Wikiquote, linked here. There you can find many, many quotes related to Shakespeare and the Bible. Speaking more broadly, the topic here is rhetoric. Our article on that is pretty decent and it contains links to modern theorists that may be useful to you. If you want to master rhetoric, you'll need to also study the other portions of discourse: grammar and logic. Searching for business rhetoric yields a lot of promising leads, including a course from Harvard's continuing education program here. Matt Deres (talk) 13:22, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

Thank you, Matt, for pointing this out to me. It's a bad joke, but considering the way even political candidates speak, I thought rhetoric was a dead art. I will look into this! Shushimnotrealstooge (talk) 22:54, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

T. H. McAllister, photographer, NY

Further to c:Commons:Village pump#T. H. McAllister what can we find about the life of T. H. McAllister, photographer and manufacturing optician of 49 Nassau Street, New York, United States?

[21] has "Established 1865 Closed 1917", presumably referring to the studio; was it continued after his death? By whom? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:31, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

There are pictures dated ca. 1890 and others dated 1900. Yann (talk) 12:04, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

What was a "wet jacket"?

From an American document published around 1844:

We calculate to defend the suits to the utmost; and if he gets judgments, the next thing is to collect them [forgiven back rents] — that’s all. They served notice upon George Cipperly, Esq., treasurer of the Anti-Rent Association, to remove the dam of his factory [built against the terms of a non-negotiable, perpetual lease] out of the creek within thirty days, and now they are up. Now let them come. The man that undertakes the job will get a wet jacket, for we are determined to buck the bull off the bridge, and no mistake. Shushimnotrealstooge (talk) 23:00, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

I think the implication is that anyone who tries to remove Cipperly or his dam will end up being thrown in the creek. Zacwill (talk) 23:30, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

Agreed. It sounds like a weird idiom at first, but the tail end of the sentence makes it clear. Matt Deres (talk) 19:37, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

@Zacwill @Matt Deres I see it now. Thank you! Shushimnotrealstooge (talk) 14:58, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

June 16

TV archiving

I read every now and then about lost films and make the assumption that beyond a certain date everything is preserved somewhere. But in research about the phrase "fallen angels" I encountered, for example, a 1997 Australian TV series called Fallen Angels which doesn't appear to have made much of a splash in the public memory. I also recently learned that The Caine Mutiny was adapted early on in the 1950s to an Australian TV film. I don't expect to be able to dial these things up on YouTube or any commercial streaming service, but I guess my question is: to what extent can we expect that TV movies/shows that may not have been considered noteworthy at the time have been preserved in an archive somewhere? And further to that - while I don't have a burning desire to watch a forgotten 1997 drama or a 1959 Australian adaptation of an American novel - to what extent can the public access such archives? Appreciate that the answer will differ from country to country, but I'm kind of interested in all examples. Dr-ziego (talk) 11:28, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

You might be interested in reading Doctor Who missing episodes — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.221.58.22 (talk) 13:04, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

It's an interesting question. There's three big classes of considerations: is the item preserved anywhere, can it be identified/retrieved, and can it be shared? If any of those are "no", then you're out of luck, to varying degrees. You can read an interesting story that touches on all that at Marion Stokes. She was a TV archivist that recorded many thousands of hours of television that have subsequently been donated to the Internet Archive. It's virtually a certainty that some material in her collection is not available anywhere else, but even her collection is not yet digitized/available, so it has passed the first hurdle, but is stuck on the second. Matt Deres (talk) 14:25, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

Lost television broadcast is a good start, and you've already mentioned Lost film. A bit more general is Lost media.-Gadfium (talk) 19:15, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

How far out did the Mayans travel at sea?

Just watched Apocalypto the other day. Just thinking about the ending (the villains chase the hero onto the beach to kill him but then run away when they see Spanish ships in the bay - then the hero and his wife decide that those guys coming ashore look like bad news and decide to get the hell away). I've read that the Mayans had some ships, but did they ever set sail to see what was out there at sea? Or did they just stick to fishing distances and figure that there was nothing out there (all the way to the edge? water all the way around the back - sorry, but I don't know what they believed about the shape of the earth), so there was no point? 146.200.107.90 (talk) 20:05, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

It seems they contented themselves with coastal trade. From The Ancient Maya and the Rise of Maritime Trade: "Throughout the Terminal and Postclassic Maya periods, precious goods and commodities – including jade, pottery, cotton, obsidian, cacao, and salt – made their way along a coastline stretching from modern Veracruz to Honduras. The vessel of choice was the dugout canoe. These were not humble watercraft, but massive affairs." Clarityfiend (talk) 23:01, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

See also Maritime trade in the Maya civilization. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:06, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

Valley of Strathmore redirects

Strathmore, Angus and East Perthshire and Strathmore, Angus and Perth & Kinross are redirects to Valley of Strathmore. What do these names "mean"? Are these merely geographic indicators for a place that's located in two entities (to take a US example, comparable to "Ray, Indiana and Michigan" in the US), or is there some other meaning? Neither Angus and East Perthshire nor Angus and Perth & Kinross exists, so I assume they aren't single entities, and the title isn't comparable to "Stranraer", "Dumfries and Galloway". But on the other hand, the components aren't all on the same level; Angus, Scotland and Perth and Kinross are local government areas, but East Perthshire is a seat in the House of Commons. Nyttend (talk) 21:03, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

They are artefacts of previous attempts to disambiguate things or places with Strathmore as their name, and in particular this place which does not have the good manners to confine itself to a single local government area. This is a common problem with the natural world, it refuses to conform itself to administrative convenience. As far as I can see the sequence is 1) 16 December 2005, article created at Strathmore, Angus and East Perthshire, 2) 28 December 2005, article moved to Strathmore, Angus and Perth & Kinross because "local authority areas are std dab tool", 3) 11 September 2011, article moved to Strathmore, Angus because "angus will do", 4) 25 September 2022, article moved to Valley of Strathmore because "Per RM discussion. See talk page". East Perthshire is indeed a seat in the House of Commons, but East Perthshire is also in everyday speech the eastern part of Perthshire. So, yes, your Ray example would appear to be a similar case. DuncanHill (talk) 23:45, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

June 17

Which kinds of sources exist for contemporary South Korean politics?

If I want to know Kevin Rudd's thoughts, I can find an e-book on Amazon and run it through a machine translator if I don't speak English. If I want to read about the K-Belt Initiative, a Korean system of grants and tax policy to encourage semiconductor production, do they have a political culture of ministers publishing books on their pet projects? Shushimnotrealstooge (talk) 15:29, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

Confused, how is Rudd relevant, either in his role as PM or his role as ambassador to the US? Nyttend (talk) 21:31, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

They's using a random contemporary Australian politician as an example. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:03, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

Probably just the news. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:04, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

Read the paper: The Korea Herald. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 23:29, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

Let me say this differently: if I go to the National Assembly's website, can I ask to see the sponsors and co-sponsors of this bill? I would like to know what Korean political participation beyond reading the newspaper looks like. Shushimnotrealstooge (talk) 01:03, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

if I go to the National Assembly's website, can I ask to see the sponsors and co-sponsors of this bill?

Yes. You don't even need to ask anyone, just click on (Google-translated) "pending bills" and then click on the one whose sponsors ("proposers") you want to see. Aaron Liu (talk) 04:26, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

June 18

Nagasaki oopsie?

A sentence in "This Earth of Hours" (1959) by James Blish:

Getting along with these people on the first contact would be vital, and yet the language barrier might well provoke a tragedy wanted by neither side, as the obliteration of Nagasaki in World War II had been provoked by the mistranslation of a single word.

This is new to me. Is there any truth to it? —Tamfang (talk) 05:10, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

None whatsoever. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:41, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

There is a claim that a misinterpretation of the Japanese verb 黙殺する (mokusatsu suru) contributed to the decision to bomb Hiroshima; see here. I have not tried to evaluate this, but note that Wiktionary gives both the sense "to withhold comment" and "to treat with silent contempt".  ​‑‑Lambiam 06:50, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

WHAAOE: Mokusatsu.  ​‑‑Lambiam 06:58, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Mentioned at Potsdam Declaration#Aftermath. DuncanHill (talk) 07:00, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

There was also miscommunication over the meaning of "unconditional surrender", described in various histories of the bombings and probably in Wikipedia. 2601:644:8581:75B0:9C2D:563:979D:9458 (talk) 20:57, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Looking for article

I saw an article a month or two ago, that I think was a blurb about an academic paper, and might have been in one of the "science daily" type of pop-science sites. It talked about non-literate societies (indigenous cultures etc.) that had contact with the outside world, and decided that widespread literacy was something they didn't want or need, since literate societies developed text-based (I remember the term "text-based") rule and legal systems that were then subject to manipulation and whatever the real-world equivalent of wikilawyering is called. That in turn led to inequities developing that a face-to-face culture did a better job of avoiding. Does this sound familiar to anyone? I'm not having any luck with search engines. Thanks. 2601:644:8581:75B0:9C2D:563:979D:9458 (talk) 21:02, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Total shot in the dark: Coomaraswamy, Ananda K., Bugbear of Literacy (1945) seem to be along the lines of what you're looking for. MediaKyle (talk) 21:12, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Nothing to fear...

We are told "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself—nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror...".