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Butting heads with an IP over a template - mea culpaEdit

I suspect I'm being cantankerous/bloody-minded/adjective-of-your-choice in my interaction with an IP editor over Template:WWI_tanks. The IP has expanded the navbox with many WWI vehicles of which I was not aware and the also at the List of combat vehicles of World War I (prototype tanks, self-propelled guns, armoured cars et ) - which is good. And it throws up lots of things that possibly warrant articles of their own or covering in general articles of the "armoured vehicle development in X country" type. But to my mind while a list article can handle redlinks and supplementary comments this has resulted in a very big very redlinked navbox. (I note also that some of the vehicles are French and they have very long names). So far I've suggested a discussion but it's likely by now that they think I'm a bad faith actor. If anyone has ideas on how I can engage constructively that would be helpful. Working in Navbox space is tricky because it's unlike an article where you can add appropriate cites. And I'm out of practice editing on Wikipedia and policy. Of course if I'm being a complete ass and a fool do tell me. GraemeLeggett (talk) 18:38, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

That navbox is much longer than the ones before and after it in the navbox series (Templates Interwar tanks & WWII tanks). Also this is named Template:WWI tanks but the header lists "World War I armoured fighting vehicles" and includes many non-tank vehicles. The non-tanks sure looks to be out of scope to me. I see no recent discussion at Template talk:WWI tanks; in depth discussion on template specifics should be directed to there imo. -Fnlayson (talk) 19:16, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
Including armored trains? Seriously? SPGs are out of scope IMO, & I'd be disinclined to keep armored cars & trucks, either. TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 21:04, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Which are all non-tanks. ;) -Fnlayson (talk) 21:38, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
  • I didn't think I needed to say that. ;p Except that the header on the infobox was AFVs, so, broadly, they'd belong. However... TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 02:37, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
the IP expanded the scope. Perhaps hiving off the non-tanks to a new navbox would retain the intent without losing the effort or the new editor. GraemeLeggett (talk) 22:01, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
That sounds like a plan. TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 02:37, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Summer–Autumn Campaign of 1941Edit

Hello WP MilHist! I'm working through the backlog at Category:Orphaned articles from February 2009 and came across Summer–Autumn Campaign of 1941. It seems legit, but only has one source, and is orphaned. I was wondering if anyone could help answer some questions for me. Is it indeed a legitimate term? If so, is it really something that needs its own standalone article, or would it be better off merged elsewhere? And third, if it is legit and should stand alone, where can I link to it to de-orphan it? I'm happy to do any legwork, I just need to be pointed in the right direction. Thank you in advance! ♠PMC(talk) 01:16, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

It appears that a merge into Operation Barbarossa is in order, as the subject article presents an outline of the Soviet view of that campaign. RobDuch (talk) 01:33, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
Either that, or Al Stewart’s Roads to Moscow... Qwirkle (talk) 01:48, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
This was created by a now-banned editor as part of a large campaign of creating an often duplicative set of articles on World War II using Soviet/Russian terminology and historiography. Redirecting to the Operation Barbarossa article seems sensible, though it is a shame that there isn't an article on the first phase of the 1941 invasion of the USSR. Nick-D (talk) 10:13, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
Joking aside, and with due consideration for the damage a particular activist has caused by crusades on similar issues, using names only from the German POV (for only one example) creates a confirmation bias in research.

If you look up contemporaneous material on the “civil war”, you see a different picture from the “war between the states”; “Bull Run” gives a different picture from “Manassas”. This sort of thing sometimes shows up in unexpected places; American newsmen, for instance, were active in Germany until US entry in WWI, and often used different names for battles than did the British or French.

Obviously, this is something of preaching to the converted; the historiographical standards for military articles on Wiki are much, much higher than those for most of the rest of Wikipedia. Still worth keeping in mind, though. Qwirkle (talk) 14:05, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

I'm honestly a bit intimidated by the prospect of merging something like this into Operation Barbarossa, which is a lengthy GA on a topic I know little about. Would a redirect alone be reasonable, with perhaps a note at the talk page there? ♠PMC(talk) 14:35, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

"Panzer (disambiguation)" and "Panzer" page moves.Edit

Project members may want to give their input on the discussion about page moves at Talk:Panzer (disambiguation), which also concerns the Panzer article. (Hohum @) 19:01, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. I've just reverted some premature moves and redirects that attempted, probably inadvertently, to bypass the discussions. - BilCat (talk) 23:14, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Nomination of Portal:Cold War for deletionEdit

A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Cold War is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Cold War until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America1000 06:12, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Expeditionary energy economicsEdit

Hello, I am a new page reviewer and just added someone else's new article, Expeditionary energy economics, to your project. I am unsure about how to add this article to one of your specific Task Forces, so please proceed as you see fit. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (Talk|Contribs) 17:26, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Frigate EgyptienneEdit

What is the identity of the frigate Egyptienne wrecked in the Bosphorus in October/November 1854? - "Latest Intelligence". The Times (21902). London. 18 November 1854. col E, p. 6.. Mjroots (talk) 07:00, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Possibly one of the vessels listed at Égyptienne (ship), but very uncertain. RobDuch (talk) 21:28, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
None of those seem to fit the date. Mjroots (talk) 07:18, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
The wreck is also referred to in the London Standard and a budapest paper but I can't find any other record of the ship. Is it possible that it was an Egyptian frigate rather than the Frigate Egyptienne? According to List of shipwrecks in November 1854 the Egyptian Navy lost a couple of vessels that month but near Crimea rather than the Bosphorus - Dumelow (talk) 11:27, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
Barring a better identification, I'm leaving this one off the shipwreck list. Mjroots (talk) 18:21, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
It seems very likely it was one of the Egyptian vessels lost in the Crimean War, but positive ID will be difficult. RobDuch (talk) 05:32, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Field Marshal of Prussia , Field Marshal of Bavaria and Field Marshal of Hanover etc after 1871 = Field Marshal of German Empire !?Edit

Some Field Marshal of these live through after 1871 , the proclamation of the German Empire.

Since Prussia , Bavaria and Hanover became part of German Empire after 1871. Were those Field Marshal such as Prince Karl Theodor of Bavaria , William, Duke of Brunswick , Friedrich Graf von Wrangel , Prince Friedrich Karl of Prussia and Crown Prince Frederick (Frederick III) automatically become Field Marshal of German Empire ?

Thank you.-- Comrade John (talk) 15:15, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

No. Article 63 of the 1871 Constitution of the German Empire leaves every territory its own army (in peacetime). So they stayed "bavarian" officers. That ended only in 1919. Alexpl (talk) 15:29, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
So in other words , there's no Field Marshal of German Empire in fact ? Just a common saying ?-- Comrade John (talk) 15:35, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
No, but the original affiliation was kept. Wilhelm II for example declared Mehmed V Field Marshal of Prussia and of the German Empire. Alexpl (talk) 16:22, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
In this case , who should be consider as Field Marshal of German Empire ? Those who promoted after 1871 , proclamation of the German Empire ? Before that are not consider as Field Marshal of German Empire , even Prince Friedrich Karl of Prussia and Crown Prince Frederick (Frederick III) are not consider as well ?
Also , a off-topic but related question:
Some Austrian Empire field marshals live through after 1867 , when Austrian Empire became Austria-Hungary. Can we consider them as field marshals of Austria-Hungary ? -- Comrade John (talk) 16:36, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
I would say not, as they could be one thing but not the other. Unless RS say it we cannot.Slatersteven (talk) 17:09, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Since the current List of German field marshals and List of Austrian field marshals article make me puzzle , I need somebody to clarify. -- Comrade John (talk) 17:19, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

List of German field marshals is a strange list, the restriction on the state Prussia and its predecessors before 1870 as beeing "German" seems kind of random. Many contemporaries in other states would have also seen themselfs as beeing "German". For your list, the easiest solution would be to take out the pre 1870 Prussians and Saxons (1806–1918). Alexpl (talk) 06:12, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
This is problematic, and I agree. The solution is to retheme it to Prussian and then have anew list for Germany after "unification" under Bismark.Slatersteven (talk) 08:02, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
After 1871 it was the Imperial German Army so all of those marshals can de facto be considered to be of the German Empire. The army was a contingency army with each state having its own forces that were integrated into the hegemonic Prussians. However a few states were able to keep their armies as seperate entities with their own war ministries, lists and ranks (including Field Marshal). Those were, beside the obvious Prussia, the kingdoms of Bavaria, Saxony and Württemberg. Not Hanover though. ...GELongstreet (talk) 11:22, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
I know Bavaria and Saxony still have new field marshal after German Empire proclamation but they were field marshal of Prussia before or after that. Beside that , does that mean Field Marshal of Prussia after 1871 = Field Marshal of German Empire ?
Also , Prince Friedrich Karl of Prussia and Crown Prince Frederick (Frederick III)'s article both have Field marshals of the German Empire and Field marshals of Prussia in their category but both of them have been promoted before German Empire proclamation. Does that mean they all automatically become Field Marshal of German Empire after German Empire proclamation , it makes me puzzle. Anyway I also agree to have anew list for Germany after "unification" under Bismark-- Comrade John (talk) 15:27, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
Moreover , Some foreign country leaders and generals held this rank as well , all of them are honorary rank right ?-- Comrade John (talk) 10:45, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
No, there was no rank of Field Marshal of the German Empire, just of the respective armies. However many from other states were named field marshals of their own army and the Prussian Army at the same time. As for the categories of those princes, that is because the category Field marshals of Prussia is not a subcategory of the other category as there were indeed loads of Prussian marshals before that Empire was created. The current marshal list is somewhat subotmial as it lumps together the empire but e.g. doesn´t have independent Bavaria while having Prussia as its own before and Saxony on its own before and during the empire. And yes, all foreigner field marshals were honorary. A very common thing with royals, Wilhelm II was one himself in the British and Russian armies ... and of the Bavarian Army as well. ...GELongstreet (talk) 19:53, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
Other than that , As the people promoted to Generalfeldmarschall after German Empire proclamation , Can I called them Field Marshal of the German Empire ? -- Comrade John (talk) 11:23, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Flag icons in Section headers - does the project have a position?Edit

Some list articles eg List of common WWII infantry weapons, List of infantry weapons of World War I, List of combat vehicles of World War I have Flag icons in the section headers. The WP:MoS (not in MOS:FLAG where you might think it would be mentioned but in MOS:HEADINGS) says that's not a place for flag icons (or any icon). Equally there shouldn't be links, as in List of limited service World War II combat vehicles. And that as it's a technical issue it overrides local consensus or IAR. I'm assuming the MilHist project doesn't have a different view on this, only it could get a bit revert-y in applying (and enforcing the rule) and I wouldn't want to find myself without a policy to stand on. GraemeLeggett (talk) 21:15, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

MOS:FLAGCRUFT might be of use. Mjroots (talk) 04:44, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
I'm not aware of any significant view within the project that differs from MOS:HEADINGS, and in case, as a consensus-based Wikipedia-wide guideline, the MOS trumps any project consensus. MOS:HEADINGS is very clear in saying that icons should not be contained in section headings. I would just go ahead and remove them all, along with the links, which are also verboten. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:03, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
I've dealt with List of limited service World War II combat vehicles, it now meets MoS with respect to links in headings. And just found the flag-be-iconed WW2 infantry weapons by faction and cleaned that up. I note it has a merge notice on it but to my mind from the state of it is probably more AfD material. Anyone fancy processing it?GraemeLeggett (talk) 11:46, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Russian ship RostikoffEdit

What is the identity of the "Russian ship Rostikoff" wrecked before 20 December 1853. Apparently a ship of the line of 120 guns. - "Foreign Intelligence - Russia and Turkey". The Royal Cornwall Gazette, Falmouth Packet, and General Advertiser (2638). Truro. 13 January 1854. p. 2.. Mjroots (talk) 08:21, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

According to Russian Warships in the Age of Sail 1696-1860, the Russian Navy built eight first-rates for the Black Sea Fleet (none of which are your vessel) and five for the Baltic Sea Fleet (but I can't see those pages in google books to confirm) in the period between 1825 and the Crimean War. The index doesn't include a vessel by that name, however, though there was a Rostislav of 110 guns launched in 1813. Parsecboy (talk) 09:54, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
According to the List of ships of the line of Russia, the 1813 Rostislav was broken up in 1827. Three Decks says she was severely damaged in the Great Flood of 1824 and had been based in the Gulf of Finland. There is an 1844 Rostislav of 84 guns, stated to have been scuttled during the Siege of Sevastopol in 1855. Could this be the vessel? Was it subsequently repaired? Mjroots (talk) 10:14, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
Sozaev & Tredrea make no mention of any accident with that vessel - it carried troops in the Black Sea in October 1853 and was at Sinop in November, where it received 25 hits. It was repaired in 1854 and as you note, scuttled at Sevastopol in February 1855. Parsecboy (talk) 11:39, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
If anyone is interested, I've created an article on the Rostislav of 1844. Parsecboy (talk) 12:49, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Afghanistan/Iraq orders of battle: time to delete?Edit

Do the articles War in Afghanistan order of battle, 2012 and Iraq War order of battle, 2009 serve a purpose anymore? They used to be continuously updated lists, but ended up frozen in time because editors stopped updating them. I'm not sure what the point is of preserving these snapshots of troop deployments for those two years. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Archive 107#Future of Iraq War order of battle for previous discussion. --Cerebellum (talk) 00:09, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

I don't think they really serve an encyclopaedic purpose, as even within a given year period, the ORBAT will have changed with units rotating in and out at various stages. I also doubt there are high quality reliable sources for this material. ORBATs are more suited to battles and date-defined operations or campaigns. Some of this information (which countries participated, where and for how long) would be better captured in brief summary form in the parent articles. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:18, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
Delete, they tell little of value and they’re not even accurate. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 02:01, 23 May 2019 (UTC).
It would be nice to salvage something here as these, like all OOBs, are important topics. But as the articles aren't sourced and do look to have problems with accuracy, this might be easier said than done. @Buckshot06: are you aware of any reliably-sources which provide theatre-wide OOBs for these conflicts? Nick-D (talk) 07:43, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
Why are we even having this discussion? They are of unquestioned encyclopedic value as a guide and snapshot of what the forces looked like at at least one point during the war, and yes, probably they need to be improved, but almost every other article in the encyclopedia needs to be improved too.. Buckshot06 (talk) 08:46, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
Since there's disagreement I used AFD instead of PROD, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Iraq War order of battle, 2009 and War in Afghanistan order of battle, 2012. --Cerebellum (talk) 19:53, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Ottoman Empire's Mushir RankEdit

Hello everyone. This is somewhat related the one that I ask previously.

Four questions:

1. Except German Empire , does any other foreign country leaders or generals got this rank ?
2. Colmar Freiherr von der Goltz , Erich von Falkenhayn and Otto Liman von Sanders. Are these all German general got the Mushir rank ?
3. I also found Guido von Usedom in the unfinished list of "List of field marshals of the Ottoman Empire" , This people is the Admiral , but coludn't found he had Mushir Rank , is it true that he got Mushir rank ?
4. To above the question , Based on their carrier , they somewhat got the power to command Ottoman forces in WWI. Is it mean that their Mushir rank is the real one , not honorary ?

Thank you. --Comrade John (talk) 11:10, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

As far as I understand it Mushir is the equivalent of both Field Marshal and Fleet/Grand Admiral and loads of countries had that (some still have). Yes, all three of them were Mushirs and Admiral von Usedom as well (though several books name him field marshal instead of fleet admiral but as said it was the same title). I´d say those promotions were indeed substantial and confered command authority but they already had that as they were either seconded to, or commanded combined forces including, the Ottoman forces and were promoted after having commanded them. Of course the promotions also had an honorary character as they were no regular Ottoman officers and would return to serve within the German forces (in which they still were commissioned) after their assignments there ended. ...GELongstreet (talk) 16:33, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
Thanks to reply , maybe I didn't say the second question clearly. The meaning of the second question should be this:
Is it true that only Colmar Freiherr von der Goltz , Erich von Falkenhayn , Otto Liman von Sanders and Guido von Usedom are the German officers got the Mushir rank , no others ?
First question left unanswered , Can anybody solve this one ? -- Comrade John (talk) 20:08, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
There also is, and even included in the apparently incomplete List of field marshals of the Ottoman Empire, British Major-General Charles George Gordon. Most likely there are more, maybe some around the Crimean War. ...GELongstreet (talk) 21:08, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Elizabeth L. Gardner up for deletionEdit

Women Airforce Service Pilots. WW II pilot. 7&6=thirteen () 11:47, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

"Frisian Legion" and related editsEdit

Draft:Frisian Legion looks to me like an ill-prepared attempt to create a hoax. I see absolutely zero relevant English sources in a Google Book search, and that seems highly unlikely if the legion had existed. I have asked User:Olimpus344 for sources, but they have not replied.

"Logo of the Frisian legion."
The associated "logo", File:Frisian legion.png, does not have a credible source, is marked as "own work", and does indeed look exactly like that. Creation of fake files to support a hoax article is classic modus operandi. Adding a link to the article title in another article as was done in Special:Diff/862080187/863452484 is also classic. I'm inclined to think the draft should be tagged with {{db-hoax}}, but seek opinions from editors more acquainted with history in general.
This made me look further into what Olimpus344 has been doing:

Considering all of the above, I think all uploads to Commons by this user should be tagged for speedy deletion and sr:Друштво за уређење и улепшавање Карађорђевог шанца should be tagged for speedy deletion as a hoax. Would anybody here happen to speak Serbian and know the speedy deletion procedure there? Sam Sailor 12:25, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

@Sam Sailor: Speedy tag placed at Serbian article. There is one source about the Društvo (Society for Improvement of Karađorđe's Šanac) on GBooks, and it did exist between the world wars, but that's where the facts end. Good find – both articles are hoaxes indeed. No such user (talk) 13:10, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
Hi, it's deleted on Serbian Wikipedia. Is there something what should be deleted there too? Zoranzoki21 (talk) 22:26, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for your response and help both No such user and Zoranzoki21. Draft:Frisian Legion has been tagged for speedy deletion as a hoax, and the user's images on Commons are up for deletion at c:Commons:Deletion requests/Files uploaded by User:Olimpus344. I left a comment on sr:Разговор:Српски добровољачки корпус (Други светски рат). Sam Sailor 08:12, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Good article reassessment: Hans-Joachim MarseilleEdit

Hans-Joachim Marseille, an article that you or your project may be interested in, has been nominated for an individual good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. --K.e.coffman (talk) 23:22, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

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