Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard

"WP:DRN" redirects here. For the "Deny Recognition" essay, see WP:DNR.

Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN)

This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN. Do you need assistance? Would you like to help? Request dispute resolution If we can't help you, a volunteer will point you in the right direction. Discussions should be civil, calm, concise, neutral, objective and as nice as possible. This noticeboard is for content disputes only. Comment on the contributions, not the contributors. Off-topic or uncivil behavior may garner a warning, improper material may be struck-out, collapsed, or deleted, and a participant could be asked to step back from the discussion. We cannot accept disputes that are already under discussion at other content or conduct dispute resolution forums or in decision-making processes such as Requests for comments, Articles for deletion, or Requested moves. The dispute must have been recently discussed extensively on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to be eligible for help at DRN. The discussion should have been on the article talk page. Discussion on a user talk page is useful but not sufficient, because the article talk page may be watched by other editors who may be able to comment. Discussion normally should have taken at least two days, with more than one post by each editor. Ensure that you deliver a notice to each person you add to the case filing by leaving a notice on their user talk page. DRN has a notice template you can post to their user talk page by using the code shown here: {{subst:drn-notice}}. Be sure to sign and date each notice with four tildes (~~~~). Giving notice on the article talk page in dispute or relying on linking their names here will not suffice. Do not add your own formatting in the conversation. Let the moderators (DRN Volunteers) handle the formatting of the discussion as they may not be ready for the next session. Follow moderator instructions There will be times when the moderator may issue an instruction. It is expected of you to follow their instruction and you can always ask the volunteer on their talk page for clarification, if not already provided. Examples are about civility, don't bite the newcomers, etc. If you need help: If you need a helping hand just ask a volunteer, who will assist you. This is not a court with judges or arbitrators that issue binding decisions: we focus on resolving disputes through consensus, compromise, and advice about policy. For general questions relating to the dispute resolution process, please see our FAQ page. Become a volunteer We are always looking for new volunteers and everyone is welcome. Click the volunteer button above to join us, and read over the volunteer guide to learn how to get started. Being a volunteer on this page is not formal in any respect, and it is not necessary to have any previous dispute resolution experience. However, having a calm and patient demeanor and a good knowledge of Wikipedia policies and guidelines is very important. It's not mandatory to list yourself as a volunteer to help here, anyone is welcome to provide input. Volunteers should remember: Volunteers should gently and politely help the participant fix problems. Suggest alternative venues if needed. Try to be nice and engage the participants. Volunteers do not have any special powers, privileges, or authority in DRN or in Wikipedia, except as noted here. Volunteers who have had past dealings with the article, subject matter, or with the editors involved in a dispute which would bias their response must not act as a volunteer on that dispute. If any editor objects to a volunteer's participation in a dispute, the volunteer must either withdraw or take the objection to the DRN talk page to let the community comment upon whether or not the volunteer should continue in that dispute. Listed volunteers open a case by signing a comment in the new filing. When closing a dispute, please mark it as "closed" in the status template (see the volunteer guide for more information), remove the entire line about 'donotarchive' so that the bot will archive it after 48 hours with no other edits. Open/close quick reference To open, replace {{DR case status}} with {{DR case status|open}} To close, replace the "open" with "resolved", "failed", or "closed". Add {{DRN archive top|reason=(reason here) ~~~~}} beneath the case status template, and add {{DRN archive bottom}} at the bottom of the case. Remember to remove the DoNotArchive bit line (the entire line).

Case		Created		Last volunteer edit		Last modified
Title	Status	User	Time	User	Time	User	Time
Sales data dispute on Chris Brown article	In Progress	Instantwatym (t)	6 days, 2 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	4 days, 9 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	4 days, 9 hours
Peugeot 505, Peugeot 5CV	New	Avi8tor (t)	4 days, 8 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	22 hours	Avi8tor (t)	9 hours
Tulsa	Closed	Vectormapper (t)	3 days, 3 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	2 days, 20 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	2 days, 20 hours
Arecibo message	In Progress	67.149.172.22 (t)	1 days, 22 hours	Kovcszaln6 (t)	6 hours	67.149.172.22 (t)	1 hours
Killing of Laken Riley	Closed	Jonathan f1 (t)	1 days, 4 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	21 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	21 hours

If you would like a regularly-updated copy of this status box on your user page or talk page, put {{DRN case status}} on your page. Click on that link for more options.
Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 22:46, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Current disputes

Sales data dispute on Chris Brown article

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Instantwatym on 22:06, 20 June 2024 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Chris Brown (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Instantwatym (talk · contribs)
• theWikiholic (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Myself and another editor by the username theWikiholic have been involved in an ongoing dispute regarding total sales of artist Chris Brown on the following article: https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Brown. The issue has already been discussed on the article talk page and in an ANI discussion started by theWikiholic (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=1221291435#Usage_of_WP:Circular_sources_and_Disruptive_editing_to_promote_inflated_record_sales_on_Chris_Brown's_page). Our positions on this dispute are articulated well on the ANI discussion; as well as our reasons for disagreement. And there is no consensus either way.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

- Talk page discussion started by myself on the article page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chris_Brown

- ANI discussion started by theWikiholic: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=1221291435#Usage_of_WP:Circular_sources_and_Disruptive_editing_to_promote_inflated_record_sales_on_Chris_Brown's_page)

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Involve other neutral editors with familiarity of music certifications and sales to outline whether or not certifications equate to sales. If not, outline if total certified units (which in and of themselves are not a matter of dispute but rather a fact) can be simply be reported as certified units as opposed to sales in articles (e.g., Brown has certified ___ million units worldwide, as opposed to saying Brown has sold ___ million units worldwide based on his certifications).

Summary of dispute by Instantwatym

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by theWikiholic

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Sales data dispute on Chris Brown article

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer note: As suggested at ANI, I think you should consider an RfC. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 11:43, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Zeroth statement by volunteer (Chris Brown)

Various editors have said that a Request for Comments may be the best way to resolve this dispute. Preliminary discussion may determine whether an RFC will be used. Please read DRN Rule A. Do the editors agree to moderated discussion subject to these rules? The purpose of dispute resolution is to improve the encyclopedia. Will each editor please state, concisely, what they want to change in the encyclopedia, or what they want to leave the same that another editor wants to change? Robert McClenon (talk) 14:58, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Peugeot 505, Peugeot 5CV

– New discussion.

Filed by Avi8tor on 15:30, 22 June 2024 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Peugeot 505 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Peugeot 5CV (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Avi8tor (talk · contribs)
• Mr.choppers (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

When it was founded, Wikipedia had many discussions in the early years to figure out what units to include or not include in articles, A compromise resulted in the USA and the UK having different primary units from the rest of the world, which seemed like a reasonable compromise. see Wikipedia:Measurements Debate. Editor Mr.choppers seems to think the MOS does not apply because a certain unit was used when a vehicle was initially sold, regardless of the wording in the Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Primary Unit.

This problem goes back years, with Mr.choppers reverting every edit I make to do with which unit is primary. This time it stems from editing Peugeot 505, Peugeot 5CV, Mercedes-Benz Actros and numerous other vehicles going back years, I’d like a decision on what constitutes the primary unit.

The next disagreement.

The UK and the USA have received exemptions for strong national ties, which no other country has! But what is the criteria for “strong”, it seems to me that any ties to the USA or the UK are classed as strong national ties even if other editors say they may be weak or trivial. In the case of the Peugeot 505, it was exported to the USA and Australia so how do we get strong national ties to the USA? It is a French designed and manufactured car!

The Manual of Style is apparently interpreted differently by different editors and needs clarifying. Is a strong national tie 50% or more than 50%? Who decides? Let’s take Tesla, whose cars are made in the USA, China and Germany, all units used in design and manufacture are SI units, so which country has strong ties and which units are primary? Well it is a Company headquartered in the USA, so that would give strong national ties.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Peugeot_505 Units of Measurement.

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

The manual of style states three options: In non-scientific articles with strong ties to the United States and the UK. In all other articles, the primary units chosen will be SI units. Can an editor pick and choose something else because of the ambiguity of the remaining wording regardless of the statement "will be SI units"?

Summary of dispute by Mr.choppers

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

The issue is that there are two kinds of horsepower, metric and non-metric. Most of the world (Europe, Japan, Latin America) uses metric hp, US and UK and some other english-speaking countries uses imperial hp, and a few countries like New Zealand, Asutralia, and South Africa have switched over to SI. There is no recognized standard for how to distinguish metric and non-metric hp (some use the German abbreviation PS for metric hp, but this is somewhat inappropriate for French or Italian cars, for instance). The definitions of these units are very similar, which often makes it hard to tell which unit is being used - sometimes you can tell from context. Non-english sources are almost certainly using metric hp. Here are the conversions, showing how close these units are:

{{convert|100|hp-metric|kW|2}} 100 metric horsepower (73.55 kW)

{{convert|100|bhp|kW|2}} 100 brake horsepower (74.57 kW)

While many countries have officially switched to SI (kilowatts) over the last several decades, this process is by no means complete. Nearly all references, all magazines, all journals, and most manufacturers have held on to metric hp and it is still the primary unit in many situations and markets. I will be happy to provide links and examples if needed, but will limit myself to VW chairman Ferdinand Piëch laying down a target number of 1,001 metric horsepower (736 kW; 987 bhp) for the Bugatti Veyron in 2001. Metric hp is current, it is used industry wide, and I would argue that it remains the most commonly used unit worldwide outside of insurance companies and government offices.

Don't get me wrong, though - I do not want metric hp to be the prime unit across Wikipedia. Kilowatts are the default lead unit for most cars of the last two-three decades, while imperial horsepower are still dominant in UK and US.

What I recommend is that we always lead with the appropriate unit, instead of using a one-size-fits-all method. The appropriate unit is typically the one used in the car's home market when it was built, or the one used in the majority of reliable sources. It is rare that there is any conflict - the Peugeot 5CV, for instance, was built five decades before there was any thought to use kilowatts. Peugeot uses metric hp to describe it. The US-market Peugeot 505 is a bit less clear; for me, what matters is that the engines were heavily re-engineered for the US market, with federalized cars also receiving different sheet metal and a significant number of other technical changes. Again, all references for the US Peugeot 505 uses imperial hp to describe the car, from factory manuals to period articles to current writings about it.

I am not entirely sure what Avi8tor wants to have changed, but describing a French car from the 1920s using kilowatts is anachronistic and in contradiction to MOS since it contradicts the units used in all reliable sources. There are always edge cases, like the US-market Peugeot 505, but those situations can and should be discussed. Avi8tor also has a problem getting metric v imperial hp mixed up with horsepower ratings systems like DIN vs SAE, gross versus net, and often drags in tax horsepower (which does not directly relate to power outputs) as well. Avi8tor has introduced factual errors, like here, where he carelessly changed the output from 110hp/81kW to 109hp/81kW. Minor to some, but still a factual error. Sorry about dragging you all into the bewildering world of horsepower...  Mr.choppers | ✎  13:30, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Mr.choppers is quick to blame me for something I did not do. As you can see from his reversion, the stated value prior to my convert template inclusion was hp & kW, He was happy with those the day before with a previous edit until I got involved, I chose kW as the primary unit. You didn't like what I'd done and changed the convert template to metric-hp and kW. Neglecting to follow the manual of style for a European Vehicle which would be kW & PS or metric horsepower, whatever you want to call it. The difference between the two units is about 1 horse. Avi8tor (talk) 15:06, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I just realized that Avi8tor cherry-picked from the MOS above, so here is the relevant text as it applies to older automobiles:

In all other articles, the primary units chosen will be SI units (such as kilograms), non-SI units officially accepted for use with the SI, or such other units as are conventional in reliable-source discussions of the article topic (such as revolutions per minute (rpm) for rotational speed, hands for heights of horses, etc.) I have shared this sentence with them on numerous occasions but it remains unacknowledged.  Mr.choppers | ✎  13:34, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Peugeot 505, Peugeot 5CV discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer Note - The filing editor has not notified the other editor on the user talk page. A statement on the article talk page is not sufficient. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:18, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
• Volunteer Note - The template that opens a case does not automatically notify the other editor. It appears that the filing editor reasonably thought that it did, but it doesn't do that. The filing editor must do that manually. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:22, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

  Now done Avi8tor (talk) 10:32, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Zeroth statement by moderator (Peugeot)

Are the editors interested in moderated discussion, subject to DRN Rule A? If so, I will ask each of the editors to start off by stating what they want to change in the article, or what they want to change that another editor wants to leave the same. I understand that one issue has to do with the units of power. Are there any other content issues?

If you are citing the Manual of Style, please state exactly what section in the MOS you are citing, just so that we don't have confusion about what rulebook is being used. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:24, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

The reference is Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Units of measurement/Unit choice and order. Shortcut MOS:UNIT or MOS:UNITS about halfway down the page.

This debate in a nutshell is how we interpret the MOS. I see "In all other articles, the primary units chosen will be SI units", Mr.choppers sees "or such other units as are conventional in reliable-source discussions of the article topic (such as revolutions per minute (rpm) for rotational speed, hands for heights of horses, etc.". Sources can be cherry picked depending on what country they are from. USA all imperial, Australia all SI. I live in France, the owners manual for my two cars give power in kW only, as do owners manuals in the UK. Mr Choppers live in the USA so he'd prefer NON SI units worldwide. I follow the MOS and place SI units primary for countries outside the USA and UK. The MOS needs to be fixed to remove the ambiguity. Less than 50% of Wikipedia users are from the US or UK, all those other countries use SI. Wikipedia is for an international audience. All owners manuals for cars in Europe (including the UK) have kW for Power. I can send a copy of that page. Avi8tor (talk) 04:37, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Tulsa

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Vectormapper on 21:03, 23 June 2024 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Tulsa (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Vectormapper (talk · contribs) SounderBruce (talk · contribs) Dispute overview Hello. I published vector maps of cities created by me personally, the user SounderBruce https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SounderBruce deleted them under a fictitious pretext. He wrote me a notice (copy at the end) He didn’t like my nickname. Reason for removal - "Maps added by self-promotional account" However: My username VECTORMAPPER does not represent any brand, company or public organization. Also, this name does not represent any service, product, website, etc. This is my VERY old nickname, due to the fact that I have been working in the field of vector cartography for a very long time (more than 25 years). And of course, many people in many countries know me by this nickname - it simply reflects my profession. I am providing the Wikipedia community with free access to some of my vector maps without any restrictions on use. I really hope that my work on the Wiki will be useful to many people. Also. My vector files provide the ability to edit, embed in any designs of any scale, in any projects that involve subsequent printing, use in media, and others. Maps, which are usually presented in info box on the Wiki Pages, may be visually informative at the “just look” level - but they are completely impossible to use in any way. The city maps that I published provide users with the ability to easily edit maps in any vector editor and use maps in any media and printing projects, including cinema, television, interactive maps for Internet projects, and games. All maps I publish are fully CC-0 licensed and therefore can be used in any way. I am confident that the city maps I provide are necessary and useful to users. Message from SounderBruce:<br? Welcome to Wikipedia. I noticed that your username, "Vectormapper", may not comply with our username policy. Please note that you may not use a username that represents the name of a company, group, organization, product, service, or website. Examples of usernames that are not allowed include "XYZ Company", "MyWidgetsUS How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? [[1]] [2] [3] How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? I am sure that deleting my materials (city maps) for far-fetched reasons such as “bad username” and “self-promotion” is a type of vandalism. I ask you to take some measures so that I can continue to normally contribute to the development of Wikipedia. Tulsa discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Arecibo message

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by 67.149.172.22 on 01:41, 25 June 2024 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Arecibo message (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Ïvana (talk · contribs)
• VQuakr (talk · contribs)
• David J Johnson (talk · contribs)
• Opportunity Rover (talk · contribs)
• Walsh90210 (talk · contribs)
• Meters (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

There have been repeated requests from multiple users requesting the removal of a claim in the subtitle of the "crop circle" message. The referenced sources do not support the "hoax" claim sufficiently for it to be present in the subtitle of the section. A minority of editors are reverting any removal of the claim then using the removals as proof to have the article locked. They mock or ignore any users that try to have a discussion, and hide behind "consensus" to wait out anyone that's trying to improve the article.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Arecibo_message#Editors_continually_inserting_"hoax"_in_the_title_of_the_Arecibo_crop_circle_subsection

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

As it says at the top of the edit page: "Encyclopedic content must be verifiable through citations to reliable sources." I think the dispute would be resolved with a change to the subtitle or if better sources are added that support the current subtitle.

Summary of dispute by Ïvana

Multiple IPs does not necessarily means "multiple users". Not sure why only two editors are being singled out when, like VQuakr mentioned, more are involved and we all agree the current version of the page is the one that should be kept. We are not a "minority of editors", this has been consistently enforced judging by the article's history. Consensus is clear. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ïvana (talk • contribs) 03:09, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by VQuakr

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Multiple editors other than the two listed are involved in this dispute. Talk page consensus appears clear to me, but if the mediator here decides to clean up this case with all participants added and accept it I am willing to participate. VQuakr (talk) 02:13, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Arecibo message discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Zeroth statement by volunteer (Arecibo message)

After looking into this case, I am willing to moderate this dispute. I have included 4 other editors who have participated on the talk page but were not listed by the filing editor.

Consensus appears to be that reliable sources state that the circles being made by aliens is a hoax. So I'm asking the filing editor: can you provide reliable sources that state that (1) the circles were made by aliens, or (2) that there is reasonable doubt to believe that the circles were created by humans? Kovcszaln6 (talk) 10:12, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I have contributed on several occasions to this page. My experience is whilst resident at the SETI Institute as a Charter Asociate. All my views on this "hoax" are on the article Talk page. Thanks & regards, David J Johnson (talk) 10:19, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

1) is not my burden to prove, it's the burden of those that want to have "hoax" in the subtitle. The sources in the article do not sufficiently support having it. Two of them are news articles with no basis for the claim other than the third source, a statement from SETI saying that it is only "highly improbable" the source is anything other than human (2). We should be asking the editors that want to leave it it, can they provide reliable sources that prove the claim it's a hoax? By all means call it "most likely" a hoax in the article, but the sources aren't sufficient to have "hoax" in the subtitle.

@David J Johnson You like to mention you're a "Charter Associate" at SETI. There's no such thing. I put that phrase into Google and the only result is a wikipedia talk page you were mentioned in. Even if you did work at SETI, that doesn't give you any authority over the article. 67.149.172.22 (talk) 11:01, 25 June 2024 (UTC

Well, I'm sorry you could not get confirmation. I have many items of confirmation from the Institute. I have not stated I have any "authority" over the article, only my experience in being very close to the subject at the time. This is not the place to discuss anyway. Regards, David J Johnson (talk) 11:08, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

When considering what counts as a reliable source it should be noted that - "In an article on a fringe topic, if a notable fringe theory is primarily described by amateurs and self-published texts, verifiable and reliable criticism of the fringe theory need not be published in a peer-reviewed journal. For example, the Moon landing conspiracy theories article may include material from reliable websites, movies, television specials, and books that are not peer-reviewed." The standard of sources (and in my opinion evidence) is much lower here than usual, due to the fringe nature of crop circles and their general unreliability. Proving or disproving the reliability if the SETI seems like the best way to resolve this. Clubspike2 (talk) 11:41, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

"verifiable and reliable criticism of the fringe theory need not be published in a peer-reviewed journal"

Tell me, how is the referenced source The Independents that states nothing other than "It was of course a hoax" verifiable? The second source Universe Today misquotes and references the third source, a statement by SETI that only claims it is highly improbable that the source of the circle was anything other than humans. Calling it a hoax in the subtitle is way too strong a message for the given sources. Asking for the text of the page to reflect the sources shouldn't be controversial, but here we are.

Addition: In the talk page, I believe user Ïvana proposed changing the subtitle from "Arecibo Answer crop circle hoax" to "Chilbolton crop circle". I would support that change as well, it removes the unwarranted "hoax" and I think "Arecibo Answer crop circle" is a bit clunky of phasing anyways. The rest of the section sufficiently describes the facts and SETI's position. 67.149.172.22 (talk) 12:46, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm fine with the usage of hoax, since I believe the sources support it. I proposed another name just so deter people from edit warring. But again, consensus is clear, so my first option is to keep using hoax. If for some reason the section title is deemed unfit then we can go through alternate titles, but that doesn't seem to be the case. - Ïvana (talk) 16:00, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

You cannot claim consensus is clear if you have a repeated debate about the inclusion of "hoax" in the subtitle. That is the opposite of consensus. Getting N+1 users to counter any number of individuals in a discussion thread is not consensus. 67.149.172.22 (talk) 20:35, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Consensus is neither a vote nor a requirement for unanimity. The number of editors making an argument isn't directly relevant. There is consensus because inclusion of the descriptor is consistent with the relevant policies and guidelines. VQuakr (talk) 20:46, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

First statement by volunteer (Arecibo message)

SETI stated that it is "highly improbable" and listed many arguments. The other sources have made the logical conclusion that this must be a hoax. So – considering Wikipedia's verifiabiltiy policy – can the filing editor provide a source that states that aliens created these circles or there is reasonable doubt to believe that humans created them? Kovcszaln6 (talk) 12:01, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

An academic source would be better than a newspaper, of course:

The findings reported here lend further support to a decade of research which suggests that over 95% of worldwide crop formations involve organized ion plasma vortices that deliver lower atmosphere energy components of sufficient magnitude to produce significant bending, expansion and the formation of unique expulsion cavities in plant stem pulvini, as well as significant changes in seedling development. 67.149.172.22 (talk) 20:54, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Excuse the intrusion, but even if, arguendo, we were to accept this paper at face value and agree that ion vortices are responsible for some or all crop circles, that in no way explains a coherent design like the so-called "Arecibo reply." The question here is not about crop circles broadly, but about this one specifically. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 21:08, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

And so the goalposts move a foot further away 67.149.172.22 (talk) 10:18, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I think it would be more apt to say you were aiming at the wrong target. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 17:23, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

First statement by editors (Arecibo message)

The Independent is a generally reliable source. We don't need them to discuss in detail the methodology they used to arrive at the conclusion that a specific crop circle was a hoax, in order to use the information in the source. As an encyclopedia we do not perform original analysis in-house, but we are allowed to rely on the published analysis and critical thinking of others. VQuakr (talk) 18:09, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Second statement by volunteer (Arecibo message)

On the talk page multiple editors suggested the alternative "Chilbolton crop circle". Does anyone have any objections to that? Kovcszaln6 (talk) 07:21, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Please see comment below and on article Talk page. Thank you, David J Johnson (talk) 10:31, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Second statement by editors (Arecibo message)

"Hoax" remains the preferred option by long-term editors, in spite of attempted hijacking by WP:SPA's. This is a duplicate of my comment on the article Talk page. David J Johnson (talk) 10:30, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I mildly object to the alternative section header phrasing of "Chilbolton crop circle". I would take no issue with "Chilbolton crop circle hoax". The guideline section WP:ONEWAY reminds us to treat fringe theories in context, which in this case means making clear that the mainstream viewpoint is that this crop circle, like all crop circles, was created by humans. VQuakr (talk) 17:07, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Third statement by volunteer (Arecibo message)

Editors have stated that they prefer the original text (Arecibo Answer crop circle hoax). So considering that the IP hasn't made a great argument against it and guidelines also recommend it, I think we have consensus to keep the original text. If there are no objections against it within 24 hours, I will close this dispute. Thank you for your participation. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 17:25, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Feel free to close it, there's no counterargument to "I'm right, you're wrong". Despite the comments by [User:David J Johnson], this was no "hijacking". Multiple new users independently read the article, realize that "Hoax" in the title is improper, and try to change it. That should be a sign that it needs to be changed, not cause for celebration at bravely defending your precious article. 67.149.172.22 (talk) 22:21, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Killing of Laken Riley

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Jonathan f1 on 19:58, 25 June 2024 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Killing of Laken Riley (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Jonathan f1 (talk · contribs) TanRabbitry (talk · contribs) Masem (talk · contribs) Dispute overview The Laken Riley Killing is a politicized, sensationalized murder that's notable because it's being used as propaganda fodder by immigration activists and a former US president. It's one of a set of several sensationalized US murders in which 1. the suspect was an illegal immigrant; 2. activists latched themselves onto it to make broad, disputed claims about illegal immigrants and criminality; and 3. it got sucked into the middle of a political debate about immigration. When Reliable Sources cover these murders, they address how these crimes have been politicized, and they also cite research disputing the propaganda claims. The editor TanRabbitry, who's involved in the Laken Riley article, wants the article to say that the murder occurred during a "historic surge in border crossings," that the murder was "extensively referenced by proponents of stricter border security," who claimed that the murder and "similar violent crimes occurred due to the Biden administration's border policy." He's been highly resistant to including any statement about the fact that academic studies show no positive link between illegal immigration and violent crime (not even a single sentence will he agree to), despite the fact that I produced a dozen+ sources, and to say nothing of the fact that the sources they're currently using in the article also mention this. This issue has been talked out extensively on an NPOV noticeboard (linked in my report) and the article talk, but it's going in circles and getting nowhere. I would also add that the rationale for non-inclusion often involved erroneous interpretations of Wiki rules like "coatrack" (this isn't a tangent - the relevance is established in reliable sources) and "Right Great Wrongs" (again, irrelevant -this is verifiable information in RSes). How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Laken_Riley_Murder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Killing_of_Laken_Riley#NPOV How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? I'd like to come to an agreement that the relevance of the disputed information is, in fact, established in reliable sources, and that a sentence or two addressing this aspect is due for inclusion. Summary of dispute by TanRabbitry Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by Masem As the NPOV discussion is not closed, this seems awfully premature and unnecessary. Masem (t) 23:00, 25 June 2024 (UTC) Killing of Laken Riley discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. @Jonathan f1: -- you didn't specify which editor you're referring to with the edits above. Would save external observers a lot of time and confusion hunting for that info if you included it. ⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 20:24, 25 June 2024 (UTC) TanRabbitry is involved in the Laken Riley article and is the main editor involved in this dispute with me. Masem was involved in the NPOV noticeboard discussion, which has been going on for days and is currently at an impasse. Jonathan f1 (talk) 20:27, 25 June 2024 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.