Open main menu

Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard

  (Redirected from Wikipedia:DRN)
Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN)

This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button Button rediriger.png to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. "Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups.

Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN.
Do you need assistance? Would you like to help?

If we can't help you, a volunteer will point you in the right direction. Discussions should be civil, calm, concise, neutral, objective and as nice as possible.

  • This noticeboard is for content disputes only. Comment on the contributions, not the contributors. Off-topic or uncivil behavior may garner a warning, improper material may be struck-out, collapsed, or deleted, and a participant could be asked to step back from the discussion.
  • We cannot accept disputes that are already under discussion at other content or conduct dispute resolution forums or in decision-making processes such as Requests for comments, Articles for deletion, or Requested moves.
  • The dispute must have been recently discussed extensively on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to be eligible for help at DRN.
  • Ensure that you deliver a notice to each person you add to the case filing by leaving a notice on their user talk page. DRN has a notice template you can post to their user talk page by using the code shown here: {{subst:drn-notice}}. Be sure to sign and date each notice with four tildes (~~~~). Giving notice on the article talk page in dispute or relying on linking their names here will not suffice.
If you need help:

If you need a helping hand just ask a volunteer, who will assist you.

  • This is not a court with judges or arbitrators that issue binding decisions: we focus on resolving disputes through consensus, compromise, and advice about policy.
  • For general questions relating to the dispute resolution process, please see our FAQ page.

We are always looking for new volunteers and everyone is welcome. Click the volunteer button above to join us, and read over this page to learn how to get started. Being a volunteer on this page is not formal in any respect, and it is not necessary to have any previous dispute resolution experience. However, having a calm and patient demeanor and a good knowledge of Wikipedia policies and guidelines is very important. It's not mandatory to list yourself as a volunteer to help here, anyone is welcome to provide input.

Volunteers should remember:
  • Volunteers should gently and politely help the participant fix problems. Suggest alternative venues if needed. Try to be nice and engage the participants.
  • Volunteers do not have any special powers, privileges, or authority in DRN or in Wikipedia, except as noted here. Volunteers who have had past dealings with the article, subject matter, or with the editors involved in a dispute which would bias their response must not act as a volunteer on that dispute. If any editor objects to a volunteer's participation in a dispute, the volunteer must either withdraw or take the objection to the DRN talk page to let the community comment upon whether or not the volunteer should continue in that dispute.
  • Listed volunteers open a case by signing a comment in the new filing. When closing a dispute, please mark it as "closed" in the status template (see the volunteer guide for more information) and the bot will archive it soon after.
Open/close quick reference
  • To open, replace {{DR case status}} with {{DR case status|open}}
  • To close, replace the "open" with "resolved", "failed", or "closed". Add {{DRN archive top|reason=(reason here) ~~~~}} beneath the case status template, and add {{DRN archive bottom}} at the bottom of the case. Remember to remove the DoNotArchive bit.
Case Created Last volunteer edit Last modified
Title Status User Time User Time User Time
Talk:Pallava dynasty On hold LovSLif (t) 33 days, 10 hours Winged Blades of Godric (t) 18 days, 6 hours Winged Blades of Godric (t) 18 days, 6 hours
Talk:Cryonics#Quackery or_not Closed Theodorus75 (t) 14 days, 7 hours Robert McClenon (t) 11 days, 19 hours Robert McClenon (t) 11 days, 19 hours
Tenet (film) Closed Mclarenfan17 (t) 12 days, 12 hours Robert McClenon (t) 11 days, 18 hours Robert McClenon (t) 11 days, 18 hours
Scott Storch In Progress StorchBaby (t) 12 days, Robert McClenon (t) 20 hours StorchBaby (t) 2 hours
Talk:Mike Cernovich Closed MaximumIdeas (t) 9 days, 20 hours Robert McClenon (t) 6 days, 2 hours MaximumIdeas (t) 6 days,
Talk:Yonaguni Monument#Rough_cleanup New Melkov (t) 8 days, 22 hours Robert McClenon (t) 4 days, 1 hours Melkov (t) 3 days, 12 hours
Talk:2019 Dayton_shooting#Shooter's sibling's gender Closed Mjr162006 (t) 8 days, 15 hours Robert McClenon (t) 6 days, 2 hours Robert McClenon (t) 6 days, 2 hours
Talk:Common Sense (pamphlet) Closed Station1 (t) 5 days, 13 hours Robert McClenon (t) 2 days, 16 hours Robert McClenon (t) 2 days, 16 hours

If you would like a regularly-updated copy of this status box on your user page or talk page, put {{DRN case status}} on your page. Click on that link for more options.
Last updated by DRN clerk bot (talk) at 17:00, 18 August 2019 (UTC)



Contents

Current disputesEdit

Talk:Pallava dynastyEdit

  – This request has been placed on hold.
Filed by LovSLif on 09:13, 16 July 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

* Destroyer27 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

This discussion is bound to the Origination or On the 'Origins of Pallava Dynasty'. Very lengthy discussion happened on the Talk page.The discussion was initiated for the addition of Mythological origin. In the course of discussion, the core content of the initial discussion was sidelined and finally ended up pushing a new POV content into the article's Origins section under the term 'Kanchi Theory'.The content is purely based on WP:OR. I have verified both the edited versions as well as original sources and found the content is against my CONSENSUS.The actuality of 'Kanchi Theory' as an 'origination' is not supported by the sources. I believe the 'Possibility of a dynasty which was already existing/originated and later raising to the power in a particular region, post capturing it from other dynasty' cannot be assigned as an origination theory. During the discussion,A new etymology section was also created in the article which is again a POV content relying on poor sources. The discussion moderated was closed off without the acceptance of all participants. I trust DRN team would thoroughly review the sources and its corresponding content and that is why I am raising a dispute over here.I will bind by the final result.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have fully supported voluntary moderation by user Kautilya3 but no CONSENSUS arrived at.

How do you think we can help?

I request DRN team to review the sources and its corresponding content to decide on the actuality of the content written under 'kanchi theory'.

Summary of dispute by Destroyer27Edit

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by NittawinodaEdit

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

As Kautilya3 has mentioned below, the other editor LovSLif had a dispute with Destroyer27 regarding the origin section of Pallava dynasty. At this point I did my own research and requested that a few more theories regarding the origin of Pallavas be added. Kautilya3 volunteered to moderate the discussion and I must say that he/she did a pretty good job; was very patient and thorough when it came to hearing both sides and clarifying the references. During the discussion it became apparent that LovSLif wanted to keep only theories that were favorable to him/her, that is in this case the Andhra origin theories and the user rejected other theories proposed by other notable historians like for example:

1. As per historians Hermann Kulke and Dietmar Rothermund, the original nucleus and domain of the Pallavas was Tondaimandalam, which served as the base for their power. [1] [1]

2. Prof. R. Sathianathaier also maintains that the Pallavas originated from Tondaimandalam [2] [2]

I am satisfied and broadly agree with the draft proposed by Kautilya3. As for LovSLif, the editor does not seem to understand primary sources, original research and npov. He/she insisted on interpreting inscriptions and grants on his own and wants to include or reject theories based upon his own interpretation and is adamant that other theories by notable historians must not be included. Nittawinoda (talk) 15:38, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Hermann Kulke, Dietmar Rothermund. A History of India. Psychology Press, 2004. p. 120.
  2. ^ H. V. Sreenivasa Murthy. History and Culture of South India, to 1336 A.D. Vivek Prakashan, 1975. p. 188.

Summary of dispute by Kautilya3Edit

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I got involved with this page when Abecedare asked me to help to resolve the dispute concerning the origins of the Pallava dynasty. The dispute at that time was between Destroyer27 and LovSLif. Later it became one between Nittawinoda and LovSLif. I asked both the editors to recommend high-level WP:HISTRS that are at the level of "History of India". When the sources they presented were not of this kind, I did my own search and found two multi-volume Histories of India[1] which have chapters devoted to the Pallava dynasty contributed by top Indian historians of the 1960s. The two sets of scholars took opposite points of view. So I said that both the viewpoints were notable and proposed content summarising thei respective viewpoints with WP:In-text attribution. Nittawinoda was satisfied with my summaries but LovSLif was apparently not satisfied. The nature of his objections has not been clear from what he writes. Thus we ended up here.

The content that I proposed is now on the main page: Pallava dynasty#Origins. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:24, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

I did not get involved with the Pallava dynasty#Etymoogy section. Any disputes concerning it are not yet ripe for DRN. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:28, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ The two are:

Summary of dispute by AbecedareEdit

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

My role in this dispute has been to (1) as an admin, warn/guide the participants to try to keep the discussion on-track, and (2) request Kautilya3, as an knowledgeable editor in the area uninvolved in the original dispute between LovSLif and Destroyer27, to take a look at the content issues (aside: and I appreciate the time they have devoted to the issue in response!).

I don't have any pre-set views on the central content issue(s) per se, and the DRN should be able to proceed without my participation. Abecedare (talk) 15:43, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Talk:Pallava dynasty discussionEdit

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
  • Volunteer comment just chiming in to point out that one of the parties to this dispute, Destroyer27 is currently indef-blocked for socking and looking at their talk page I would not expect them to come back any time soon. signed, Rosguill talk 15:04, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Volunteer Note - The preconditions for moderated discussion have been met, in that there has been lengthy discussion on the article talk page, and the other parties have been notified. There has been an effort at moderated discussion already, which did not result in resolution. A volunteer is requested to try to conduct a second round of moderated discussion. I am not optimistic that a second round of moderated discussion will work better than the first, but we will try. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:09, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Possible zeroth statement by moderatorEdit

I will ask a few questions to see whether moderated discussion is feasible. It appears that one of the participants in the previous mediation was User:Kautilya3, who was attempting to mediate, and another was User:Abecedare, who is an administrator who sometimes facilitates mediation, so that they were not principals. One of the principals was User:LovSLif. Was the dispute between LovSLif and User:Nittawinoda, or with User:Destroyer27, who is a blocked sockpuppet? If it was between LovSLif and Nittawinoda, will each of them please state, in one or two paragraphs, what they think was the dispute, and how the article needs to be improved? Also, if LovSLif is not satisfied with the mediation, will they please state, in one paragraph, how they disagree with the mediation? Comment on content, not contributors. Be civil and concise. Please reply within 36 hours. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:25, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Zeroth answers by editorsEdit

  • Nittawinoda's comments

As I mentioned above, I agree with Kautilya3's draft of the origin section in the article Pallava dynasty. Currently I do not have a problem as this is what is in the article page Pallava_dynasty#Origins. In addition, I want the following theories added if not already,

1. As per historians Hermann Kulke and Dietmar Rothermund, the original nucleus and domain of the Pallavas was Tondaimandalam, which served as the base for their power. [3] [1]

2. Prof. R. Sathianathaier also maintains that the Pallavas originated from Tondaimandalam [4] [2]

3. The ancestor of the Pallavas was born out of a union of Aswattama and naga princess (already in article and source provided by Kautilya3)

4. "The immediate conquerors of the Andhras were the Pallavas who seemed to have risen to power suddenly in the south. Starting from Kanchi, their capital, they extended their empire northwards, till it included Vengi Nadu."[3]

5. As per historian C.Rasanayagam, "The Pallavas are considered to be the descendants of Tondaiman Ilam Tiraiyan the offspring of Chola King Killivalavan and naga princess Pilivalai, the latter being the daughter of king Valaivanan of ManiPallavam. The dynasty took its name (Pallava) after the name of the mother's kingdom manipallavam."[4][5]

As per my understanding, LovSlif wants the Kanchi theory scrapped from the article. If he wants the whole section removed then I object but if it is just the nomenclature, for example, I do not mind renaming the "Kanchi theory" to something like "Tondaimandalam origin theory" etc. Points 1, 2 and 3 above are somewhat there in the current version. I would like to add points 4 and 5 if possible. Thanks, Nittawinoda (talk) 15:17, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Hermann Kulke, Dietmar Rothermund. A History of India. Psychology Press, 2004. p. 120.
  2. ^ H. V. Sreenivasa Murthy. History and Culture of South India, to 1336 A.D. Vivek Prakashan, 1975. p. 188.
  3. ^ Chenchiah, Bhujanga. A History of Telugu Literature. Asian Educational Services, 1988. p. 21.
  4. ^ Vidya Dhar Mahajan. Ancient India. S. Chand, 1962. p. 532,533.
  5. ^ Rama Shankar Tripathi. History of Ancient India. Motilal Banarsidass Publ., 1967. p. 442.
  • LovSLif's comments

I want to clarify that I do not want complete Kanchi theory paragraph struck.I want the term Kanchi Theory to be excluded as this is not the region of origin.It was the the region occupied at later point to strengthen their position.I also disagree adding D.C Sircar as 'proponent of Kanchi theory'.I have provided my explanation on the same at [5].

I believe below is what should be added to make the article balanced. Here is what should be added.

1. It is agreed that the maternal side of the Pallavas is the Nagas. Well the Nagas were likely Telugu speakers. As per the work of D. Ananda Naidu,Gangisetti Lakshminarayana, and V. Gopalakrsna, who were published by Dravidian University (partly funded by Tamil Nadu's government): "The language of the Nagas appears to be Telugu, which the earliest reference to which is found to be in the earliest Tamil-grammar, the Tolkappiyam (5th Century AD)". [1] B. Ramaraju similarly says that the Nagas were closely connected with Andhra. To quote him, "This is a prehistoric celebration of Naga or serpent-worship observed throughout Andhra. Buddhistic and other records mention that once Naga tribes inhabited this part of the country called 'Nagabhumi' (land of the serpent god). Every village in Andhra has some or other Naga idol carved in stone or wood.” [2] Hence, this should be added in.

2. I want the Etymology section clarified. The word Pallava is clearly of Sanskrit origin and this should be clearly mentioned. I also want to mention that according to the Velurpalaiyam Copperplates, the first Pallava ruler's father was named Chutu Pallava. This also puts into question their so-called Chola heritage, which they never acknowledged.

3. I want it to be clearly mentioned that no Tamil inscriptions were issued by the Pallavas, that are found to date, until the late 6th century or early 7th century, which is well after they were established. [3]

4. I want to include K.R Subramanian as another historian that supports the Andhra origin theory.

In regards to Nittawinoda's recommendations: - Firstly, Chenchiah Bhujanga is a Telugu language scholar. A prior scholar of the side that I am advocating for was sidelined because he was not a historian but a literary figure. Chenchiah Bhujanga fits in to the same category more or less. His claim to fame is a book about a history of Telugu Literature and he is not a trained a historian, but a scholar on the Telugu language. I will not agree to include him in this article.

- Secondly, Aswattama liason is a legend and not History.Also, the claim about the Pallavas being the child of the Cholas in untenable at best. TV. Mahanlingam, note a Tamilian, writes "The explanation of Naccinarkkiniyar that Ilantiraiyan was an illegitimate son of a Cola king and a Naga princess is "patently absurd". [4] In fact, given the context of the conflicts between the Pallavas and the Cholas, no wonder the Tamil commentators made the Pallavas out to be illegitimate sons.


References

  1. ^ D. Ananda Naidu, Gaṅgiśeṭṭi Lakṣmīnārāyaṇa, Vi Gōpālakr̥ṣṇa. Perspectives of South Indian History and Culture. Dravidian University., 2006. p. 257.CS1 maint: Multiple names: authors list (link)
  2. ^ B.Ramaraju. Folklore of Andhra Pradesh. National Book Trust., 1978. p. 60.
  3. ^ T.V Mahalingam. Kāñcīpuram in early South Indian history. Asia Pub. House., 1969. p. 22.
  4. ^ T.V Mahalingam. Kāñcīpuram in early South Indian history. Asia Pub. House., 1969. p. 16.

By LovSLif (talk) 07:05, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

First statement by moderatorEdit

Okay. We will try moderated discussion. Please read DRN Rule A and follow it. Do not edit the article. Be civil and concise. Remember that civility is required everywhere in Wikipedia and especially in dispute resolution. Overly long statements have only one value, to make the person posting them feel better, but they do not clarify the issue. Comment on content, not on contributors. (We seem to be focusing on content at this time, which is good.)

The statements made by the editors are long and need to be trimmed. Will each editor please identify one change that they want made at this time having to do with the Origin section? Also, I understand that there are also issues about the Etymology. Will each editor please identify one change that they want made to the Etymology?

First statements by editors should be addressed to me. Do not reply to each other. I am also providing a section for back-and-forth discussion which you may use for that purpose.

Robert McClenon (talk) 17:54, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

First statements by editorsEdit

  • Statement by Nittawinoda

@Robert McClenon:

I would like the following theory to be added to the origin section:

"Some historians like C Rasanayagam, M.Srinivasa Iyengar have stated that the Pallavas were descendants of Tondaiman Ilam Tiraiyan who was the son of Chola king Killivalavan and Naga princess Pilivalai, daughter of Valaivanan of Manipallavam in Sri Lanka. The dynasty thus came to be called after the mother's native place.[1][2][3]. According to the Ulas(historical poems in honor of Chola kings) written by poet Ottakoothar, Killivalavan is said to have married a Naga princess by entering the bilvadara(cave) and also it is known that Tiraiyan was the son of a Chola prince who married the Naga princess, Pilivalai by entering the bilvadara in Nagapattinam. So that Tiraiyan was the son of Killivalavan is not without force".[4]

I would like the following change to Etymology section:

"As per historians Hermann Kulke and Dietmar Rothermund, the name Pallava which means leaves or foliage is the Sanskrit equivalent of the the Tamil word tondai which designates their original domain, namely Tondaimandalam."[5]

References

  1. ^ Raju Kalidos. History and Culture of the Tamils: From Prehistoric Times to the President's Rule. Vijay Publications, 1976. p. 80.
  2. ^ Rama Shankar Tripathi. History of Ancient India. Motilal Banarsidass Publ., 1967. p. 442.
  3. ^ N. Subrahmanian. Social and cultural history of Tamilnad, Volume 1. Ennes, 1993. p. 71.
  4. ^ C. Krishna Murthy. Saiva art and architecture in South India. Sundeep Prakashan, 1985. p. 8.
  5. ^ Hermann Kulke, Dietmar Rothermund. A History of India. Psychology Press, 2004. p. 120.

Nittawinoda (talk) 18:50, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

  • Statement by LovSLif

@Robert McClenon:

Among other changes, the first and foremost change I want to the Origins sections is the identification of the Nagas as Telugus. Here is the phrasing: "As per the work of various scholars, such as D. Ananda Naidu,Gangisetti Lakshminarayana, and V. Gopalakrsna, the language spoken by the Nagas, who were the maternal line of the Pallavas, was likely Telugu. B. Ramaraju notes that what is now Andhra was called "Nagabhumi", which means land of the Nagas."

In the etymology section, I want the following. The word Pallava is a Sanskrit word that means "leaves or foliage. Tondai is the Tamil equivalent of the word. As per the Velurpalaiyam Copperplates, the first Pallava ruler's father was named Chutu Pallava.

By LovSLif (talk) 03:59, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Back-and-forth discussionEdit

  • Dispute LovSLif's statement (Rebuttal by Nittawinoda)

@Robert McClenon: I dispute the following claims by LovSLif.

1. Identification of the Nagas as Telugus - This appears to be original research. I quote from the source provided by LovSLif above " D. Ananda Naidu, Gaṅgiśeṭṭi Lakṣmīnārāyaṇa, Vi Gōpālakr̥ṣṇa. Perspectives of South Indian History and Culture. Dravidian University., 2006. p. 257.":

"In Andhradesa, the Rakshasas, mentioned in the Ramayana, at a later date, appear to have acquired the name of Nagas. The language of the Nagas appears to be Telugu, which the earliest reference to which is to be found in the earliest Tamil- grammar, the Tolkappiyam (5th century A.D.)."

What do the Nagas of Ramayana have to do with the Pallavas? This is completely out of context and has nothing to do with the Pallavas or the origin of the Pallavas for that matter. The Pallavas never mentioned that they married a Naga lady of Telugu origin. In fact, some scholars consider Tondaiman Ilandiraiyan to be the progenitor of the Pallavas and he is said to be the son born out of the union of Chola king Killi and Naga princess Pilivalai of Manipallavam in Sri Lanka. This refers to the Naga people of Sri Lanka and they definitely did not speak Telugu. I request the moderator to review the source more closely before making a decision.

2. As per the Velurpalaiyam Copperplates, the first Pallava ruler's father was named Chutu Pallava - Once again this original research. This is based upon the user's interpretation that Virakurcha, whose father is mentioned as Chutu Pallava, was the first Pallava ruler. As per "History of the Pallavas of Kanchi by R. Gopalan, edited by Sakkottai Krishnaswami Aiyangar, page 51, [6]", I quote, "Again in the Velurpalaiyam plates, it is not stated that Virakurcha who married the naga princess was the first member of the family of the Pallavas..". Moreover some historians like Vijaya Ramasamy, R.Gopalan and many more(mentioned above in my first statement) consider that Tondaiman Ilam tiraiyan was the progenitor of the Pallava dynasty.[1][2][3] This being the case, we should not add Chutu Pallava as the father of the first Pallava ruler.

References

  1. ^ Vijaya Ramaswamy, Jawaharlal Nehru University. Historical Dictionary of the Tamils. Rowman & Littlefield, 2017. p. 154.
  2. ^ Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland. Indian Antiquary, Volume 40. p. 134.
  3. ^ Tamil Nadu, a real history. Ratna Publications, 2005. p. 89.

Nittawinoda (talk) 16:09, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Second statement by moderatorEdit

I think that it will be necessary to place this discussion on hold so that we can find another moderator. I have not yet placed it on hold, pending verification of the need for another moderator. However, it appears that the editors expect me, the moderator, to "review the source more closely before making a decision". As a moderator, I do not review the sources because I expect the parties to be able to explain to me what the sources say. Some moderators will review the sources; some expect the editors to present the information to each other and to the moderator. My concept of the role of the moderator is to facilitate discussion between the editors, not to make any decisions. If the editors expect that the moderator will decide on the content, a different moderator is needed.

Each editor should state briefly whether they are satisfied with my concept of the role of the moderator. If either editor is not satisfied, I will have to try to find another moderator, but I am not optimistic about finding another moderator.

I will remind the editors that ArbCom discretionary sanctions apply to disputes about India.

Each editor may also describe one more point that they would like changed in the article. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:42, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Second statements by editorsEdit

  • Statement by Nittawinoda

@Robert McClenon: Yes, you are right. I would like a moderator, preferably someone familiar with India/Indian history, who can review the sources and come to a conclusion, similar to how @Kautilya3: did on the article talk page before the other editor came here. This is because, I believe the other editor, LovSLif, is claiming things that are not stated in the sources and presenting his original research. Thanks, Nittawinoda (talk) 19:18, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Third statement by moderatorEdit

This dispute is placed on hold while we try to find a moderator. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:39, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

  • This is a textbook example of how broken our processes of DR are. And, please don't touch this by a barge-pole or so, unless you have expertise in these domains. WBGconverse 13:12, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Talk:Cryonics#Quackery or_notEdit

  – General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Theodorus75 on 11:35, 4 August 2019 (UTC).

Tenet (film)Edit

  – General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Mclarenfan17 on 06:57, 6 August 2019 (UTC).

Scott StorchEdit

  – Discussion in progress.
Filed by StorchBaby on 18:26, 6 August 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

The issue at hand is whether Scott Storch was born in Canada. There are a multitude of sources, many reputable and satisfying the WP:RS requirements, over the past 13 years that supporting the claim Scott Storch is Canadian (in addition to being american).

The Talk page for this matter did help us exchange our ideas and see eachother's point of view. However I feel the matter is still not resolved.

Binksternet feels that the video of Storch, who is plied with at least 80-proof alcohol during the videotaping, stating he was from Long Island is sufficient grounds to call Storch's birth in Canada hoax. I, however, have argued that Storch has filed court papers against others stating that he has been taken advantage of by being put in situations, exactly like the one shown in the Drinkchamps video Binksternet is using as a basis for his reversion, where he admits to saying and doing things he otherwise would not have done.

Binksternet seems to believe (correct me if I'm wrong, Bink) that Brooke Hogan read wikipedia when Storch was stated to be from Nova Scotia (without a source), and then stated her surprise when she learned that on a Canadian show, which was subsequently used as the source from 2006-2010. I think he is conjecturing more than I.

As such I am asking the community to assess all of the evidence. From the Irish Examiner, and New York's (magazine) Vulture in 2006, to XXL (magazine) and the Source (magazine) as recent as 2014/2016-17, Storch has been called Canadian many times. It is not unreasonable to argue that XXL and the Source are probably the most definitive publications for this sort of musical genre. For them to state he is Canadian, in spite of the edit in wikipedia in 2010 that changed his nationality to American to the present version, suggests Wiki is relying too heavily on an unreliable source (allhiphop.com).


Have you tried to resolve this previously?

We have used the talk page to amicably discuss our points of view, but have reached an impasse.

How do you think we can help?

I think an impartial observer/volunteer will be helpful in assessing the evidence disclosed in the later portion of the Talk page discussing Storch's nationality, and help reach a conclusion as to whether the mention of Canada is warranted in light of the evidence.

Summary of dispute by BinksternetEdit

My position was misrepresented above. I believe Storch saying "...I was born in New York, on Long Island..." because he was clearly not drunk when he said this in the first four minutes of the show, before any of the alcohol had an effect on him. And in any case, Storch has famously been non-sober for much of his career, even during interviews, so it's a surprise to see someone thinking less of him for participating in a show that involves drinking. See on Drink Champs, video segment from 3:55 to 4:06.

My position is that the September 2006 vandalism by a problematic IP was the start of the hoax. Most of our reliable sources have sorted out the problem, though, telling us Storch was born in Long Island. See XXL magazine, New York Post, Wall Street Journal, New York Daily News, Newsday, Tablet magazine, and Miami New Times. Since Long Island is stated clearly by Storch and is supported by these good sources, I think we should only list Long Island.

I will hold my position until there is a high quality investigative piece published about Storch, saying he was born in Canada, citing supporting evidence. That's the only thing which will change my mind. We don't have any such source right now. Binksternet (talk) 04:27, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Scott Storch discussionEdit

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

First statement by volunteerEdit

I will try to get discussion of this matter underway. Please read WP:DRN Rule A and follow the instructions. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. Do both User:StorchBaby and User:Binksternet want to discuss this content dispute? It appears that the only matter in dispute (which is not a trivial matter) is Storch's birthplace. Is that correct? It also appears that both editors have cited reliable sources as references. So I see three possibilities. The first is to leave the article as is, saying that Storch is American. The second is to change the article, to say that Storch is Canadian. The third, the compromise in accordance with Wikipedia guidelines, is to say that Storch's birthplace is a matter of dispute between reliable sources, and provide reliable sources for both views. Do the editors have anything else on which they disagree? Is the compromise of stating both versions acceptable to both parties? If not, why not? Robert McClenon (talk) 01:01, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

First statements by editorsEdit

Hello Mr. @Robert McClenon:, you have accurately summarised each of our points of view.

With respect to the compromise of stating both, I don't mind it but I don't think that will be enough for the other editor.

In my opinion, Storch's page previously had that "feel" (if you will) by stating he originated from Philadelphia, and blossomed in Florida.
Adding anything pertaining to Canada seems to have chafed other editors when looking at the history.

The edit, as it was, merely acknowledged what I feel is the truth: Scott Storch was, at the very least, born in Canada. I think by stating both sources, it is closer to what was there before (RS stating born in Canada, but originated/blossomed in the USA).

Either way, I would be open to the compromise, however I do not want this to be the first measure.

I would at least like the dates of my RS to be appraised, as they are newer and thus would be less prone to the hoax effect Binksternet alleges took place
I'm not saying his conjecture is incorrect, it's plausible.
I just have my doubts that such high quality sources for this genre would fall prey to such a hoax when Wikipedia stated (at the time most of the articles from my RS were published, barring CBS) he was American.

Thank you for this undertaking. StorchBaby (talk) 18:24, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Second statement by moderatorEdit

Will each editor, User:Binksternet and User:StorchBaby, please list their sources in the space below, and I will review them. I will not make a decision, but will advise on whether the article should be revised to present both viewpoints, or whether there should be an RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:07, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

User:StorchBaby has provided more than enough references, some of them reliable, so that I think that the account of Canadian origin should be listed, If the reports of American origin are also reliable, it is appropriate to state in the article that there are conflicting sources. Waiting for input from User:Binksternet. If the editors cannot agree, a Request for Comments may be needed. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:34, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Second statements by editorsEdit

Here they are: [1][2][3][4][5]

I will note that XXL did some underhanded tactic where they chagned it from Nova Scotia to Long Island well-after the fact. Thankfully some omnipotent observer anticipated this, and archived the copy that I was using as a source. Here is the webarchive: [6]

And below are some slightly older ones I've found during the discussion with Binks:[7][8][9][10]Storch Music press release stating he is Canadian StorchBaby (talk) 19:16, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Craig, Maxine Leeds (2014). Sorry I Don't Dance: Why Men Refuse To Move. Oxford University Press. In interviews some men referenced "Lean Back", a popular song that epitomized and promoted minimalist trends in masculine dancing. The 2004 song was a transnational, multiracial production of a Puerto Rican/Cuban, "Fat Joe", an African American, "Remy Ma", and a Jewish Canadian, Scott Storch and therefore demonstrates how popular musical forms transcend racial boundaries.
  2. ^ XXL (magazine) (16 December 2016). "Happy Birthday, Scott Storch". Retrieved 7 June 2018. Storch was born in Hova Scotia, Canada, but he was raised in Philadelphia and Southern Florida.
  3. ^ "Pure 80-minute Hardstyle: An interview with Ryan Hemsworth". VICE. 1 October 2012. Retrieved 23 November 2016. With the exceptions of Scott Storch and Sarah McLachlan, Nova Scotia's pretty low on hip-hop contributions...."
  4. ^ Exclaim! (26 June 2010). "The Roots Band of Brothers". Retrieved 23 November 2016. No longer with the group, Halifax-born keyboardist Scott Storch makes a name for himself as a producer-for-hire, co-producing the smash "Still D.R.E." for Dr. Dre.
  5. ^ "Chris Brown & Scott Storch May Be Working on New Music". Source. 25 January 2017. Chris Brown and Canadian producer Scott Storch are working on new music
  6. ^ Archived 12 June 2018 at the Wayback Machine
  7. ^ Pini, Gary (11 June 2008). "Eight Items or Less: Sayonara Scott Storch, Merci Metropolitan Opera and Laters Lotus". Paper.
  8. ^ "Timbaland reignites Storch feud". Irish Examiner. 8 April 2007.
  9. ^ "White People in Rap". Vulture (New York Magazine). 30 April 2009.
  10. ^ Camilli, Doug (4 January 2007). Montreal Gazette https://www.pressreader.com/canada/montreal-gazette/20070104/282385510033114. Nova Scotia-born music producer Scott Storch gave Lindsay Lohan $1-million (U.S.) worth of diamond jewelry, as a New Year's gift, says the N.Y. Post Missing or empty |title= (help)
Binksternet section. The main problem I have with putting both versions in front of the reader is that the Canada birth is so clearly a hoax. Nobody who lists a Canadian birth goes into detail about it, because there is nothing there. Instead, it's the sources saying a Long Island birth that go into the most detail about his early life. And Storch plainly says in the above-linked video that he was born on Long Island. WHAT MORE DO YOU NEED! WHAT THE ACTUAL EFF. It's coming straight from his mouth.
The sources I am bringing are the following:
To counter the sources listed by StorchBaby, I would like to point folks to the state of the Wikipedia biography of Storch at the times these sources were published. The Maxine Leeds Craig book from 2014 follows several instances in 2013 and early 2014 when the biography held the hoax birthplace of Nova Scotia, for instance here, here and here. In another case, the Vice piece was published on October 1, 2012, at at time when the Wikipedia article said Halifax, Nova Scotia. As well, the Exclaim piece was published on June 26, 2010, when our Wikipedia biography said Halifax, Nova Scotia. Similarly, the piece in The Source was published on January 25, 2017, at at time when the Wikipedia page said Halifax, Nova Scotia. The XXL Happy Birthday article with the "Hova Scotia" mistake was published on his birthday in 2016, when our Wikipedia page said Halifax, Nova Scotia. The Irish Examiner article from 2007 was published when, you guessed it, our Wikipedia article said Halifax, Nova Scotia. The Vulture piece from 2009 was published when our Wikipedia article said Halifax, Nova Scotia. EVERY SINGLE SOURCE saying he was born in Canada can be traced to circular sourcing on Wikipedia.
Finally, one of my sources specifically calls out Canada mistake, saying very clearly that Storch was not born in Canada. There is nothing similar to this on the Canada side of things, arguing against Long Island. My stance is still one of telling the reader that Storch was born on Long Island. The Miami New Times piece saying he was not born in Canada can be cited down in the article body to tell the reader that some confusion existed but the matter has been settled. Binksternet (talk) 04:47, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
Binksternet, you're relying way too heavily on a flawed interview that was alleged to be conducted by allhiphop.com. It's not a reliable source, and that's what Miami New Times was citing as their basis. That interview is not real. There is no way Scott Storch said he's never been TO canada.
Regarding the XXL article. It was edited without notifying the readers of that. It was not edited by the original author, who is no longer with the publication. I highly doubt their reasons for not being with XXL is due to the "incorrect birth place" that you're alleging. So I am willing to toss the XXL reference out entirely.
Secondly, I just showed you a press release from STORCH MUSIC, with their appropriate PR representative listed as a contact, that states HE IS BORN IN CANADA.
Thirdly, I have better sources. If you want to compare mine to yours, there is no question. I have The Source, Montreal Gazette, Irish Examiner, Vulture, Paper, Noisey, CBS, and Oxford University Press. You only have one miami new times source (both articles should be counted as one), a WSJ blog, ny daily news, tablet mag and nypost.
While I love NY POST, none of what you've cited are more than tabloidey ish sources. If we want to go down that road, then IMDB certainly does count. And if IMDB has been wrong for so long, why hasn't it been corrected? It makes very little sense.
Furthermore, four of your sources are from the *same* event, dude. My sources span all aspects of Storch's life. From his jewelry purchase, to bankruptcy, to his feud with timbaland, to his production of Lean Back, and all the way back to his collaboration to Chris Brown. You pretty much are relying on a singular news event (robbery), where the first four citations (excluding XXL) likely depended upon the same source.

Lastly, from what I see (if we exclude the XXL source for both of us), I can count 9 sources of mine to binksternet's 7 if we double count the Miami New Times reference.

Again the diversity of my sources is richer, and that is not including the Storch Music Press release, which I feel is another strong point. If we do count that, it's 10 to 7.
In reality it's more like 10 to 6, since the Storch Music press release is important and the MNT article shouldn'be counted twice StorchBaby (talk) 16:58, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Talk:Mike CernovichEdit

Filed by MaximumIdeas on 22:41, 8 August 2019 (UTC).
  – General close. See comments for reasoning.

Talk:Yonaguni Monument#Rough_cleanupEdit

  – New discussion.
Filed by Melkov on 21:13, 9 August 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

There is a problem statement on Yonaguni Monument, recently added by Ronz, that states that Masaaki Kimura's research is a pseudoarchaeology, with a link to this article used as RS.

Marine geologist Masaaki Kimura claims that the formations are man-made stepped monoliths. These claims have been described as pseudoarchaeological.

However the said article does not contain such a statement, it only states that Kimura is feeding pseudo-scientists, and the problem statement is therefore WP:SYNTH. In a more general sense, finding a RS for such a statement in non-Japanese internet is unlikely. To accuse Kumura, a standing scientist would have to base their report on actual Kimura's publications (after reading those in Japanese), not the scattered and unreliable data found on the internet.

In addition to WP:SYNTH, relevant guidelines are WP:FRINGELEVEL and probably WP:BLPREMOVE.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Third Opinion request was prepared, but could not be posted after Paul H. posted his comment.

How do you think we can help?

The problem statement should be reverted to previous neutral wording.

Summary of dispute by RonzEdit

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Given the discussion so far and the FRINGE nature of the article, basic education on content and behavioral policy seems necessary before I see any progress being made. --Ronz (talk) 15:58, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Paul H.Edit

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

First, I completely concur with Ronz's comments above. Second, as evidenced by the Spiegel Online article by Wolf Wichmann (2003) of; commentary by Carl Feagans (2017) of; lack of recognition by Japanese Agency for Cultural Affairs of; and lack of coverage by current peer-reviewed papers concerning Yonaguni Monument, the theory that it is manmade is fringe science according to Wikipedia standards. Furthermore, Patrick D. Nunn (2009) in "Vanished Islands and Hidden Continents of the Pacific" consider it to be a natural feature of only pseudoscientific interest and lacking any indication of being artificial. Finally, in contrast, the theory that the Yonaguni Monument is an artificial structure is accepted and promoted as valid primarily by a number of pseudoscientific books, e.g. Underworld (Graham Hancock), The Lost Civilization of Lemuria (Frank Joseph), The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Aliens, Lost Civilizations, Astonishing Archaeology and Hidden History (Preston Preet), and others.

Talk:Yonaguni Monument#Rough_cleanup discussionEdit

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
  • Volunteer Note - The two editors who have been listed by the other editor appear to be saying that they are not interested in discussion, and there is a consensus that the idea that the feature is artificial is a fringe theory. The filing editor may accept that they are in a minority, or they may submit a Request for Comments. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:16, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
    • So far as the discussion can be seen, one editor requests "basic education on content and behavioral policy". Education on what policies would be recommended? So far as WP:FRINGE is concerned, there is an unambiguous statement in WP:FRINGELEVEL section that ideas should not be portrayed as rejected or carry negative labels such as pseudoscience unless such claims can be documented in reliable sources. Therefore a consensus among the editors whether a topic is fringe or not is irrelevant. Therefore, since purported RS was provided, I've repeatedly outlined that it actually does not document the claim, and the problem is of WP:SYNTH, and there is no consensus among the editors that it is not SYNTH. Does anyone have a consideration whether the statement in question is relevant to WP:BLP? If BLP is concerned, is WP:RFC the right next step, or is it WP:ANI? Melkov (talk) 07:15, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Volunteer Question or Comment - What would you be taking to WP:ANI if anything? WP:ANI is for conduct issues. Are you alleging disruptive editing by anyone? That goes to WP:ANI. If this is a content issue, use an RFC. In general, if you are not sure if an issue should go to WP:ANI or to a content forum, try the content forum first. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:31, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
    • Thank you, I see now that at current discussion state WP:ANI is not a right choice. I will consult WP:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard regarding BLP concerns. Is it possible at all to receive some kind of a third opinion or advice about other questions I asked here? Melkov (talk) 06:34, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Talk:2019 Dayton_shooting#Shooter's sibling's genderEdit

  – General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Mjr162006 on 04:14, 10 August 2019 (UTC).

Talk:Common Sense (pamphlet)Edit

  – General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Station1 on 05:27, 13 August 2019 (UTC).