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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Archived nominations/September 2010

< Wikipedia:Featured article candidates‎ | Archived nominations

September 2010 edit

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 15:32, 30 September 2010 [1].

Frost Bank Tower edit

Nominator(s): TheAustinMan (talk) 22:10, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I feel that the article has the qualities of an FA article. The article already has reached GA and the problems listed in the Peer Review have been fixed. TheAustinMan (talk) 22:10, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, sadly. With barely 1,000 words of text, the article does not seem comprehensive. Most of the sections are rather skimpy; compare, say, with Trump International Hotel and Tower (Chicago), or Scottish Parliament Building; check out other building FAs.

  • Prose is problematic; a few examples from the earlier parts of the article, not a complete summary:-
    • "It has the title for tallest logo above ground in the city at 420 ft (128 m) which belongs to the logo's owner, San Antonio-based Frost National Bank, whose Austin headquarters and insurance division are in the building." Very clumsily phrased, and probably should be two sentences.. I think you mean "highest", rather than "tallest"; "which belongs to the logo's owner" is tautologous; is there really some official "title" involved? I suggest splitting and pruning to something like "It carries the highest logo in the city, at 420 feet (130 m) above the ground. This advertises the San Antonio-based Frost National Bank, whose Austin headquarters and insurance division are in the building."
    • Next sentence: "Notable tenants besides Frost Bank include the Austin offices of Morgan Stanley and Ernst & Young, as well as the headquarters of the University of Texas Investment Management Company (UTIMCO), managers of the Permanent University Fund." Offices and headquarters are not tenants, and weasel words like "notable" are best avoided. Thus "Also within the building are the Austin offices of Morgan Stanley and Ernst & Young, and the headquarters of the University of Texas Investment Management Company (UTIMCO), managers of the Permanent University Fund."
    • "In 1998, T.Stacy & Associates consolidated tracts of land at the site..." What site? We have not been given information about the location of the building, other than that it's in Austin.
    • I think that for large-scale constructions we say "plans" rather than "plan"; we have "called for" twice in quick succession.
    • "...it became the tallest building in the United States of America to start construction after the September 11 attacks." Tall buildings don't "start construction", they are constructed. Your phrasing on this point was better in the lead.
  • I also see MOS violations, e.g. "2 years" (two years), "4th" (fourth), "137 million U.S. dollars" ($137 million)

I think the article needs to be taken away and reconsidered in the light of the FA criteria, particularly those concerning prose and comprehensiveness. Regrettably, it is not close to featured standard at present, though there is no reason why it should not get there in time. Brianboulton (talk) 00:25, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: I am concerned about the quality of citations. Authors aren't listed for articles that are probably authored. The bias towards online sources indicates that a fuller literature search may be required. Has this building been mentioned in architechtural or engineering journals or conferences? Fifelfoo (talk) 01:16, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I echo the concerns above, and would also like to add that I doubt a gallery like that (a "oh, and here's a load more pictures" gallery) has a place in a FA. File:AustinSkylinefromButlerPark-Jun2009.JPG is not a panorama, and so I don't like the way it has been placed. (Copyright-wise, the images are fine.) J Milburn (talk) 01:32, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 14:56, 28 September 2010 [2].

Sutton Wick air crash edit

Nominator(s): Wackywace converse | contribs 13:12, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here’s one myself and several others have been working on for the past few weeks. It is the story of a little-known air crash, and very little is written on it anywhere at all. We have wrung sources dry to try and provide a detailed and interesting account of the crash, the investigation and the aftermath. It is short, yes, but is the most comprehensive account of the tragedy out there. A big thank you to Malleus Fatuorum for reviewing the article’s GA and copyediting and expanding the article, and to fellow aviation enthusiasts MilborneOne for working (and creating) the article and Nimbus227 for finding sources, which are in short supply. Wackywace converse | contribs 13:12, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, upon reconsideration, you're right. I've changed the name of the article, but seemed to be having trouble renaming the FAC template. I'd be grateful if someone more experienced than me could have a quick look through my contributions to see if I've done it correctly, and the FAC template will work as normal. Thanks, Wackywace converse | contribs 15:53, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - a short but informative article. Some concerns:

  • Is XH117 the serial number or the tail number? The linked articles suggest that the former is used for military aircraft and the latter for civilian
It is the serial number, which I am told is the military equivalent of a tail number. Wackywace converse | contribs 06:29, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • No. X engine or the No. X engine?
There's no the beforehand. I've fixed this throughout the article. Wackywace converse | contribs
  • Is the author of the 2004 text Graham Perry or Perry Graham?
Fixed Wackywace converse | contribs 06:29, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and struck a number of high tension cables[3], some trees, which ripped the port side wing from the fuselage, and impacted with the ground" - grammar, and the footnote should appear after the comma
Done Wackywace converse | contribs 17:54, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Which meaning of caravan are you using here?
I'm not entirely sure. The Times article, I believe, is the only article that mentions the caravan, but I don't subscribe to the service required to view it. Wackywace converse | contribs 06:29, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Spell out numbers under 10
Done Wackywace converse | contribs 17:54, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "House of Commons" or "House Of Commons"?
Done Wackywace converse | contribs 17:54, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Ward continued, saying that the loss of power from No. 1 was caused by it being feathered as a precautionary measure and the fuel starvation to No. 2 engine was caused by an incorrectly fitted non-return valve in the supply line from No. 1 fuel tank.[3] No. 2 fuel tank had been isolated and two smaller fuel tanks in the port wing had not been selected during the flight" - this repeats some of the information from the preceding quote, and is also somewhat confusing to readers unfamiliar with aircraft design. How did feathering cause the failure? What does "isolated" mean in this context, and how did that happen?
  • Lead says "those" found responsible were charged, article text mentions only a single technician - which is correct?
Fixed Wackywace converse | contribs 17:54, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done Wackywace converse | contribs 17:54, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment, leaning towards Oppose. I'm a bit surprised to see this here so soon after its GA review, which I only closed yesterday. I was in fact debating whether to fail it, as the review appeared to have been abandoned by the nominator, but instead I decided to address the major outstanding issues myself. I have some doubt that all of the available sources have been consulted. For instance I added the Gero book myself yesterday, but I've never read it; I just took the comments made by another editor during the review at face value. I'm fairly happy with this as a GA, but I'm unconvinced that it's ready for FAC. Malleus Fatuorum 19:43, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it may sound like shutting the gate after the horse has bolted, but I am very sorry for not working as hard as I could working on the article during the GA. I myself have never read Gero's book (I'm trying to find a copy, though) or the article in The Times. I'd say that I could have worked harder on this article, but I still feel it is worthy of FAC. Wackywace converse | contribs 06:21, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments -
  • Bibliography should be alphabetical.
Fixed by Malleus Wackywace converse | contribs 17:54, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Current ref 2 ... needs a last access date.
Done Wackywace converse | contribs 17:54, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • If the Gerro book hasn't actually been consulted yet, how can you be sure that a thorough search of the relevant literature has been done?
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:19, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image review issue: File:Bristol.centaurus.arp.750pix.jpg is brought to Commons by Stahlkocher on the basis that it was uploaded by Arpingstone who released it into the public domain. However, there is no visible trail for others to verify that this was the case (perhaps Arpingstone released it under GFDL or CC, or it was not Apringstone who took the image and Stahlkocher was confused, etc). Luckily, Arpingstone is quite active on the project; I have asked him to verify the case.[3] Jappalang (talk) 22:33, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Arpingstone has confirmed the details.[4] All images are appropriately licensed. Jappalang (talk) 01:50, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 14:47, 28 September 2010 [5].

Steamtown, USA edit

Nominator(s): Ishtar456 (talk) 19:44, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it exemplifies the best of wikipedia Ishtar456 (talk) 19:44, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—the link to Ludlow (town) leads to a dab page; there are no dead external links. Ucucha 20:02, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
sorry, thought I had fixed it. It is fixed now.--Ishtar456 (talk) 20:12, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sources are rather problematic
    • Inconsistent formatting in many places wrt "Retrieved"/"Accessed" and cap/non-cap
    • Some refs are incomplete with missing publisher, acessdates etc
    • Some footnotes don't appear to meet high-quality RS requirement as they are amaetur enthusiast sites, eg nos 9, 30 and perhaps 25.

YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 02:24, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

#25 is actually the official site of the people who own the locomotive in discussion for that citation. Maybe their site appears amatuerish to you, but maybe a locomotive that you might build would look amaturish to them. This is what it says on the site about who they are: "Prior to October 1, 2008, we were the steam locomotive and passenger train restoration and operating unit of the Ohio Central Railroad System. The railroad was owned by Jerry Joe Jacobson. We posted photos and information about our steam activities onto the Internet via our former web site, ocsteam.com. That now-defunct site has been vacated for our new name and this new web site." This information is rather obscure. If the people who are actually doing the restoration cannot be cited, whereelse would you recommend that I look for sources?--Ishtar456 (talk) 02:41, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
#30 is also the website of the organiszation that is doing the restoration on that locomotive.--Ishtar456 (talk) 02:46, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, but what fact-checking and review mechanisms do they have like proper publishers?? YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 07:12, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In regards to #25: Age of Steam, Ltd is the publisher. Since they are the ones that are actually preserving the equiptment in question, I believe they would be the contact for any other publisher to fact check this information. The same, I think, can be said for #31 (formerly #30-I added a citation) Since the Friends of the Valley RR, a non-profit organization, is the group who is restoring the engine, they would most likely be the contact to fact check the information that I have cited from them. It kind of funny... I consider myself a citation fanatic, and I believe these sources to be reliable. In fact, often newspapers get some of the facts screwed up, but this is straight from the horse's mouth and I am sticking to my guns with these two. If it keeps the article from FA, then so be it.--Ishtar456 (talk) 22:27, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In regards to #9, all I was citing was the date and it turns out it was in one of my other sources, so I have removed it and replaced it with the other source (so #31 is back to being #30). All your other concerns regarding accessed dates, etc. have been addressed.--Ishtar456 (talk) 23:25, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The first two issues are more concerning and should be resolved before promotion. Jappalang (talk) 03:46, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

John Simakauskas gave his permission through email. What should I do, copy and paste it somewhere. Please advise. Thank you for asking about the covered bridges, I thought those photos had already been vetted.--Ishtar456 (talk) 20:49, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have sent the permission to OTRS and tagged on the photos OTRS pending. I understand that it could take a month to be addressed. Will this prevent FA consideration? If so I withdraw the nomination. In the meantime, I have removed File:UnionPacific737in1890.jpg:. I thought I could use it because it was in a government publication. Everything else in on that page has been "cut and pasted" into Union Pacific 737, so as it was explained to me that that was okay, I thought the photo was also in public domain. I do not know what to do about the covered bridges. As I said I thought they were okay for reuse.--Ishtar456 (talk) 21:40, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The covered bridge contributor appears to have not edited sice May, so that seems pretty hopeless.--Ishtar456 (talk) 23:32, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 14:44, 28 September 2010 [7].

HMS Princess Royal (1911) edit

Nominator(s): Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:38, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This article was not promoted previously for certain unspecified prose issues. Subsequently it's been copyedited by several very helpful people in preparation for this resubmission and, I believe, fully meets the requirements of a FA-class article. If not I expect that any issues will be identified so that they can be corrected. Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:38, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - no dablinks or dead external links. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:16, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment 2c everything looks good except: Bibliography: Stevens, David; Goldrick, James (2010). Chapter in book by same authors? Cite book. ; Bibliography: Newbolt, Henry. No year given. Presses for works are good for 1c quality. Fifelfoo (talk) 04:07, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, two authors for one chapter. No year of publication is given in the reprint of the Newbolt book.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 04:26, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • If there's no year given for the reprint, then use the original publication date as the work publication date. If authors of a chapter are the same authors as the authors of the book, then it is usual to just cite the book; the page numbers ought to give the specific location within the work. Nice work on the books in series or multiple volumes! Fifelfoo (talk) 04:30, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Worldcat had a publication date even though my copy doesn't; I went with that as I'm not sure if changes were made in pagination, etc. Deleted the chapter title on the other book.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 05:06, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • (?####) should cover the year issue then? Newbolt seems to have a year now (1996)? Fifelfoo (talk) 05:13, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: File:HMS Princess Royal LOC 18244u.jpg is claimed to be PD because it was published before 1923, but does not have a publication date or citation. J Milburn (talk) 10:26, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's a Library of Congress picture so it is PD in the US by definition. It uses a PD-US license, not PD-old, and makes no claim about being published before 1923, only that it may have been.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 12:45, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Erm, right. If it's not public domain because it was published before 1923, why is that tag being used? Why not just stick with the other? J Milburn (talk) 20:41, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Read it more carefully. It doesn't say that it was published before 1923, but merely that it's out of copyright, often, but not necessarily, because it was published before 1923.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 21:40, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would be careful before assuming that a Library of Congress tag means that everything is done and dusted. The tag specifically says that it does not indicate the copyright status of the attached work. Moreover, The Bain Collection tag only says that there are "no known restrictions on the work's use", which is not the same as confirmation of PD. I mention this because I have had previous problems with Bain Collection works. Brianboulton (talk) 00:28, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, but how was it resolved? As far as I can figure the photographs were work-for-hire for the Bain News Agency and the LOC holds the copyright, which effectively means that they're PD since no US government entity can have copyright. So what holes are there in this argument?--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:52, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I withdrew the image. I'm not saying that was the only solution, or that you should do the same, just that you should be wary. Anyway, I have asked User:Elcobbola, who has grear knowledge of these matters, to advise on the matter. Brianboulton (talk) 10:16, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Several misconceptions. "It's a Library of Congress picture so it is PD in the US by definition" is entirely incorrect. The LoC hosts works still under copyright. [8] "No US government entity can have copyright" is also entirely incorrect ("the United States Government is not precluded from receiving and holding copyrights transferred to it by assignment, bequest, or otherwise." USC 17 § 105) The statement of "No known restrictions on publication", however, has routinely been determined to be equivalent to "public domain". I agree that the "known" is frustratingly and problematically imprecise, but consensus has been -- right or wrong -- that it is sufficient. It may be helpful to note that a portion of the Bain Collection has been entered into the Flickr Commons, which offers some elaboration of the "no known restrictions" verbiage. The reason, of course, that the LoC uses this guarded verbiage is prudence; only a court may authoritatively opine on the validity/absence of a copyright. Эlcobbola talk 21:40, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As a possible alternative, there's an image of the Princess Royal facing page 230 in Young, Filson (1921). With the Battle Cruisers London: Cassell and Company, LTD (available on Google books). That is verifiably published before 1.1.1923 (but only upload to en.wiki if you use it, as it may not be PD in the UK). Эlcobbola talk 22:11, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
For my part, thanks for these very helpful comments. Brianboulton (talk) 00:10, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Let me add my thanks for your response and the clarifications on US government copyrights.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 21:12, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments -
  • What makes http://www.navweaps.com/ a "high quality" reliable source?
    • Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 14#Neutral opinion needed for a website source Furthermore, unlike uboat.net, each page has a list of source books.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:29, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • That's from two years ago - and it's not addressing FACs newish "high quality" requirement. I'm not concerned that it's not a reliable source, I'm more concerned with the "high quality" part. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:37, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Understood, and I believe that it is high-quality, not least because it does provide the sources on each page. That's not quite as nice as citing each individual fact, but far better than most online sources. So this raises the issue of what exactly constitutes a "high-quality" source. Any thoughts?--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:53, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:29, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
When I've seen the argument, it goes something like this: a very long list of noted authors consider navweaps to be a better source than any other; they praise it and cite it in their own works. Over a month ago, we had a long discussion and worked out a compromise where we would continue to use navweaps but also use other sources too; the goal was for people who use navweaps to keep gathering data to make the case for what I just said. I expect we can make a good case now; please give us a few days to, well, herd cats :) - Dank (push to talk) 19:40, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Everything here is double cited already, with Navweaps.com and Campbell.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 20:05, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to keep navweaps in this article, then this would be as good a time as any to present our best evidence. - Dank (push to talk) 20:38, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No one has given evidence so far in navweaps.com's favor, so it looks like it's time for it to go (at FAC level only). I remember seeing high praise for it, but we'd need a number of editors giving the links and making the case to have even a chance of keeping it at FAC, I think. - Dank (push to talk) 15:33, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
<southern drawl>Boy, we ain't nowhere near done discussing this issue; don't you go on giving up now before our cats have even been herded.</southern drawl> I will draw attention to my response to Karanacs over at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ships#Navweaps.com_again. Little response there so I don't know what else I need to say.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 21:12, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I believe I made it known in the last debate that I consider navweaps to be of higher quality and reliability than most published sources. Frankly, it's irritating to see it continually challenged, perhaps we should coordinate some kind of essay on the topic? bahamut0013wordsdeeds 14:32, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In answer to the evidence in navweapons.com's favor, I'd point out that without this site many people like me who write about ship and ship articles would be in trouble because of the lack of good material on guns and armor and such that the site provides. We have had this discussion at least two times previously, and in the second discussion we acquiesced to a demand to double cite the information which in turn helps ensure that the sourcing in these articles remains of the highest quality since two sources are provided for a check, but I would recommend against questioning the site here since this tends to be a point of conflict between two separate camps - the one for the use of the site and the one against the use of the site - and this is a venue for discussing an article's worthiness for promotion to FA class, not about issues related to sourcing and citation. TomStar81 (Talk) 22:14, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Resolved. I would support, but I'm too involved. - Dank (push to talk) 16:53, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • If someone could help with "northeast" in British English, I'd be obliged. I believe we hyphenate "south-east" in this article, and my understanding is that these compass directions are generally hyphenated (unlike in American English), but I'm not sure. - Dank (push to talk) 19:01, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • According to the OED Online, which I'd personally call the authority on British English, it's hyphenated. J Milburn (talk) 21:22, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the German High Seas Fleet was forbidden from risking any more losses": by the Kaiser? - Dank (push to talk) 04:02, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Rewording. That's it for me. - Dank (push to talk) 15:09, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments:

  • "but Köln was quickly crippled the squadron's guns" - something's missing here.
  • "Before she could be sunk, Beatty was distracted by the sudden appearance of the German light cruiser Ariadne directly to his front, and ordered pursuit." - misplaced modifier (right now seems as though Beatty, a woman, should be sunk)
    • Fixed, on the theory that a reader might not totally get that we're using "she" for ships (since usage varies). On the general point: not only is it okay to use the gender of personal pronouns to avoid having to repeat the noun, it's preferred. - Dank (push to talk)
  • "However, the British were reading the German coded messages" - sentences should never start with "however" (or so I'm told)
    • There's a long list of words that some high school English teachers say should never start sentences, and not only is the list wrong today, it's always been wrong ... "and" and "but" are good ways to start sentences, often preferable to commonly used alternatives. See Chicago 16th, 5.220, at "and" or "but" IIRC. - Dank (push to talk)
  • "Rear-Admiral Sir Archibald Moore, temporarily commanding New Zealand" - this isn't clear to me, was Moore the temporary commander of New Zealand or did he temporarily take command of the entire squadron from NZ? I suspect the latter.
    • Good catch, it's page 401 of Massie, I'll fix it. - Dank (push to talk) 18:23, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • You might specify which German BB was damaged and which British cruisers were sunk on the 19 August operation. I don't think we have an article on it, so some extra details would be appropriate.
      • Done.
  • We could probably do without this link - it doesn't add anything to the article.

Everything else looks pretty good. Parsecboy (talk) 15:59, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: Two quick ones...

  • "Each set consisted of a high-pressure ahead and astern turbine driving an outboard shaft and a low-pressure ahead and astern turbine driving an inner shaft." With all the necessary "and"s due to the "ahead and asterns", would suggest a comma after the "outboard shaft".
  • "Princess Royal received a fire-control director between mid-1915 and May 1916 that centralised fire-control under the director officer who now fired the guns." Did this mean that the fire control director actually physically (or electronically) fired the guns? Or did he just order them to be fired? NB: I know little about fire-control!

Hchc2009 (talk) 17:53, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • Yes, he fired the guns; would you like more? - Dank (push to talk) 18:32, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Actually it was the director layer in the gun director tower who fired the guns, on orders relayed from the Gunnery Officer by the 'Phone man. There was no such thing as a "director officer". --Simon Harley (Talk | Library). 08:33, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Roberts' exact language is officer in charge of the director. You're saying that was the gunnery officer?--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:50, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments:

  • There seems to be a mix of British and American style flag ranks, Rear-Admiral as opposed to Rear Admiral. The former is the traditional British style.
  • A bracketed explanation of what a compass point is might be in order.
  • The mention of the B.C.F.'s 32 point turn at Jutland is attributed to "gyro-compass" failure in Lion, which as Andrew Gordon points out in The Rules of the Game (p. 457) is a pretty pathetic excuse.
    • True, but it was the only explanation I had at the time, since Massie doesn't even mention the incident. Changed it per Brooks.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:50, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Post-Jutland: "on faulty intelligence that they had entered a minefield," poorly worded, gives the impression that the Grand Fleet had entered a minefield owing to faulty intelligence.
    • Since I haven't Marder in front of me, and Newbolt gives a rather confused account, could you clarify it for me?--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:50, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Technically, note 50 and Marder do not support the statement, "Princess Royal was reassigned to the Atlantic Fleet in April 1919."
    • I could have sworn that Marder did support that statement, but I've changed it to Roberts.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:50, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And some more ...

  • "She became the flagship of the Commander-in-Chief of the Scottish Coast on 22 February 1922" isn't directly supported by a reference, or by the reference following the next sentence. Roberts, p. 123, will do the trick.
  • Dogger Bank: While describing Princess Royal firing shrapnel shell at L5; "despite the fact that the maximum elevation of those guns was only 20°." Technically, this is original research. Campbell, the source given, doesn't say that the elevation was insufficient to hit aerial targets.
  • It's a redlink anyway, but Rear-Admiral Moore was known as Gordon Moore, not Archibald.
  • "the destroyer HMS Landrail" and "dreadnought SMS Westfalen]] probably want the prefixes removing. Westfalen probbaly wants "dreadnought" changed to "dreadnought battleship".
    • Agree on Landrail and Westfalen, don't agree on dreadnought battleship. Hate that phrase; by definition every dreadnought is a battleship.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:50, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Will keep looking. --Simon Harley (Talk | Library). 11:55, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 14:44, 28 September 2010 [9].

1962 National League tie-breaker series edit

Nominator(s): Staxringold talkcontribs 16:00, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Quite a series. The longest 9-inning game in history (at the time), the last 3-game tie-breaker, a pennant in the balance, and 8 Hall of Famers in the mix between the two teams? Fun fun fun. The general game play facts are cited by the general references which are repeated at the end of each paragraph for clarity (as requested in the GAN). Staxringold talkcontribs 16:00, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 16:49, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comment: I am not an expert on baseball references, but as far as I can see these are all mainstream and reliable. Brianboulton (talk) 16:24, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This article is inpenetratable to non baseball fans. 86.141.247.236 (talk) 02:29, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • How can I improve it? From my experience reading soccer and cricket articles this is no more complex than those subjects. You cannot expect to explain terms like single, double, triple, and home run for every baseball article. I don't know how one can describe a game (particularly a complex one like Game 2) without either taking 10 pages for an inning or assuming some knowledge (what it means if a runner advances a base, etc). Staxringold talkcontribs 03:15, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support on this point: The nominator is obviously correct. It is very difficult to imagine any "non-baseball fan" having any interest at all in an article titled 1962 National League tie-breaker series. The article is entirely comprehensible to anyone with a basic understanding of the game of baseball (including anyone sufficiently interested in the topic to read the Wikipedia baseball article and thus acquire such an understanding).—DCGeist (talk) 06:11, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I read the top, and don't think the article is at all inpenetrable, but I did find minor glitches indicating someone should run through again. I also think someone should write the blooming box score article, and explain how it works in baseball, link it to the top of Game 1, since it is true that non-baseball fans may have no idea how to read a box score, and what the winning and losing pitchers below mean. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:00, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • That would work, but shouldn't the Baseball WikiProject have a guideline about that? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:03, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Like I said below, 04 and '26 World Series already passed FAC with similar formatting, we've never had this issue before. Staxringold talkcontribs 06:15, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments -
  • Are current refs 18 and 19 (Boston globe) by staff writers for UPI? If so, perhaps putting "staff" or "United press international" would clear up some confusion, as the refs as they stand imply that United Press Interational owns or publishes the Boston Globe.
  • It's listed in the "Agency" field, I'm not quite getting how you want the references altered to make it clear that UPI is like the AP. Staxringold talkcontribs 14:31, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wouldn't the author of that be "staff writer" or "United Press International Staff" then? Ealdgyth - Talk 14:36, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • First off, sorry for the talk page msg I just left, you obviously are keeping track of this given the quick reply. :) So should I list "UPI staff" as the author and leave UPI under agency, or remove UPI under agency? Staxringold talkcontribs 15:02, 13 September 2010 (UTC)Q[reply]
  • Either works for me, it just makes it clearer that it's a press agency report. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:10, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I know we've accepted Retrosheet in the past, but per their FAQ how does this meet the "high quality" requirement for FAC?
  • This one I'm leaving out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:19, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can remove most of them if you want, they merely restate the same information listed at Baseball-Reference. Staxringold talkcontribs 15:22, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Using your FAC cheat-sheet, hasn't retrosheet already been established at FAC here? Staxringold talkcontribs 15:41, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would say that, since it's reliable, it's OK for baseball stats, since we can't expect to find academic or university sources for baseball stats. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:05, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:44, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments User:YellowMonkey
    • What are the numbers in the brackets after the home run scorers. Is that a career or season total to date?
      They are seasonal totals, that's universally how they are denoted in box scores (and you'll note in Game 1, where Mays hit 2, multi-HR games are noted by a # outside the parentheses). Staxringold talkcontribs 02:06, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • This goes to the specificity vs. accessibility issue voiced above. I could explain everything in the article in more generally understandable detail, but the article would be 15 pages long before talking about the first game. The box score article is linked, and those are really just quick table'd summaries of the actual game. Staxringold talkcontribs 02:52, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Presumably these teams played each other multiple times in the 162 round robin matches. What were the results, which players did well in these matches? This is standard stuff as they give standard pointers to what may be upcoming, especially the home/away breakdown given that one team gets two home games
      Excellent ideas, I'll get on adding some of this. Staxringold talkcontribs 02:06, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Who were the players used in the matches and their position, at the moment, it only mentions people who did stuff
    • Did they change the teams between matches due to loss of form/tactical changes etc, eg after the 8-0 caning?
A listing would be good, but I'm guessing there may have been a few changes after the first game as well, due to poor performance (or possibly eyebrows in the reports if there weren't) which would be useful things to discuss YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 02:07, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not really. Baseball lineups are not something that feature massive changes, because the game is built for a longhaul season (162 games). Heck, it was practically national news when Joe Torre moved Alex Rodriguez down in the batting order in one postseason series. The only difference I noted in looking at the lineups a while back was I don't think Duke Snider played in Game 1, but none of the sources made a particular deal out of it. Staxringold talkcontribs 02:52, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just did a full breakdown of the Dodgers' lineups, they had the same 2B, SS, RF, CF, and C for all 3 games. The only variations were Walls at first in Game 1 and Carey at third base in game 1 (with Tommy Davis, the 3B in games 2 and 3, in left field replacing Duke Snider, the LF for games 2 and 3). Staxringold talkcontribs 03:19, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • And the Giants were the same, identical starters except trying Haller at catcher and McCovey in left in game 2. Staxringold talkcontribs 03:23, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose – After a full reading, I think this needs some more work on the writing. The issue of jargon is one that I struggle with since I am a passionate sports fan, and I'm not the most qualified reviewer to judge on that. There were a few things I caught, however, along with some more basic prose concerns that should have been taken care of before coming to FAC.

  • "breaking a 35-scoreless-innings streak" To me, a more direct way of saying it would be "breaking a 35-inning scoreless streak". I don't think that's any more difficult to understand for a newcomer.
  • The abbreviated version of National League should appear after the first use, not the second.
  • Background: "though they fell back mid-April". Is "in" or "by" missing from this?
  • "Late in the season the Dodgers held the league lead, including a four-game lead with seven games left to play and a two-game lead with three left to play." So a lead includes a lead? I don't know if this makes sense when reading it. What do you think of "Late in the season the Dodgers held the league lead; they were ahead by four games with seven remaining, and maintained a two-game lead with three left to play." I know that's wordier, but it's a template to be improved upon, and the including problem isn't there.
  • Game 1: Here's something that could be confusing for non-baseball fans: "because Koufax allowed three runs over a single inning pitched." This is because he was taken out during the second inning, and non-baseball fans aren't likely to know the related scoring rule. Can't think of a good way to rephrase it, however.
  • It now reads "Koufax allowed three runs over without recording an out in the second inning." I think "over" should be dropped. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 01:21, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Game 2: "The Giants scored first for the second game". Something feels slightly off. Should "consecutive" be added in here, or should it be "in the second game"?
  • "in an attempt to put out Wells. Wells...". Would be better to avoid the repetition of the name in consecutive words.
  • Heh, that's one of the most confusing parts. You have a batter (Wills) driving a runner (Walls) around.
  • "Wells slid hard into the Giants' catcher Haller-cutting his arm deep enough to later require six stitches-causing him to drop the ball". The hyphens should be dashes of some kind; the longer em dashes are what you want to use if you want to not have spaces.
  • "Gilliam then also walked, advancing Wills to third." I think you mean second.
  • Game 3: "Manager Alvin Dark had chosen to try not hold Wills to the first base bag...". Grammar is off. "had chosen not to try and hold Wills to the first base bag" would be better.
  • The most memorable thing about this series in a baseball sense is that the Dodgers were one inning away from winning the pennant before the Giants came back. That is completely glossed over here. I would expect to see this mentioned somewhere in the game summary. Just having this would make what follows more engaging for readers, whether or not they are baseball fans.
  • Aftermath: What is TSN?

In addition, I find the article to be under-punctuated throughout in terms of commas etc. When you have something like "and scored on the catcher's throwing error trying to catch him extending the Dodgers' lead to 4–2" without a well-placed comma, the whole meaning of something can be interpreted differently than is intended. Just another thing to work on while looking at these. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 19:54, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Image review concern: just File:Koufax1.JPG. Who said this was published without a copyright notice or registration (or that it was published at all)? No publication information was given. Did anyone perform a search on the plausible copyright owner with the US Copyright Office? Jappalang (talk) 10:17, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. In the interests of full disclosure I've never understood the American obsession with rounders, but I think this article falls short in at least two areas. The first is that's pretty impenetrable to a non-baseball fan, but the second is that it's rather poorly written in places. A few examples, and I stress that they're just examples:
  • The level of writing has been addressed ad nauseum. This is certainly no more difficult to understand than, for example, the specific language of biology or warship articles. Yes, if you don't know what a home run is you'll have to click through, but the article becomes far worse if every instance of such language is explained in crushing detail. Staxringold talkcontribs 19:44, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "The first game took place at Candlestick Park while the second and third were played at Dodger Stadium." So, the first, second, and third games were played simultaneously?
    • "The playoff series was necessary after both teams finished the season with records of 101–61." And for the uninitiated, what does that mean?
    • "The Dodgers evened the series with an 8–7 victory in Game 2, breaking a 35-inning scoreless streak for the Dodgers ...". Is it really necessary to repeat "The Dodgers"?
  • Reworded, though it is necessary to be clear in one way or another (I've reworded differently) who was on the scoreless streak. Staxringold talkcontribs 19:44, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's rather unlikely that I'll be changing my mind about this article, but who can tell. I'll simply add for now that I can't recall having seen "even" used as a verb before. "Level" yes, but not "even". Malleus Fatuorum 19:58, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • 300k+ results (when included in quotes), but changed. I have to say the initial review did have a slightly harsh tone ("poorly written", semi-sarcastic notes like "so the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd were played simultaneously") for some pretty small tense/grammar issues. Staxringold talkcontribs 20:03, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I gave you some examples, and I could have given you many others. I'm afraid that my oppose stands, and as you consider my observations to have been "harsh" and "sarcastic" I will offer you no further examples of where this article falls short of the FA criteria. Other reviewers may of course be more generously inclined than I am now. Malleus Fatuorum 20:08, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's just rather tiresome and turns me off from bothering with FAC, which is rather contrary to the process being the primary goal of Wikipedia. This is my second FAC of the year, both with (I think it's fair to say) reasonably high quality articles and people barely even return to their reviews. Since I can't alter your oppose if you won't suggest things to change the review may as well close now. Staxringold talkcontribs 20:14, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • That is of course your choice. Your other choice was to listen to what I was saying, which you have chosen not to do. Malleus Fatuorum 20:19, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've made every change you requested and noted, rather politely, that I thought your language was unnecessarily jarring. At which point you said you likely won't change your vote and won't suggest anything else to change. Where didn't I listen to what you're saying? I'm happy to improve the article in any way possible. Staxringold talkcontribs 20:21, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • You're still missing the point, as I requested no changes at all. I simply made some observations that you characterised as "harsh" and "sarcastic", as a result of which I have no further interest in helping you with this article. Malleus Fatuorum 20:26, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Then your edit summary of "your choice" is untrue. I don't really have a choice, you're just going to leave an un-fixable oppose vote here, which is effectively a death sentence. How would you characterize calling parts of the article "poorly written" and suggesting my view on a piece of prose was common in "tabloid press perhaps"? Every other reviewer has simply pointed out the flaws they find without feeling the need to twist the knife. Staxringold talkcontribs 20:30, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm just a very small cog in the FA wheel, and there may well be other cogs who support your position rather than mine. All you need is for two or three of them to come along and say that it's perfectly comprehensible to a non-baseball fan and well written. I don't have any kind of a fiat, all I have is an opinion, and I've given it. It's for others to make decisions. Malleus Fatuorum 20:39, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • (outdent) On the clarity to non-fan issues, what can I do? That's a serious question, as discussed above with you and the IP editor much earlier, how can you clarify this article for the generic reader without completely destroying it? Looking at last week's FACs (I know, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS but for a reference point), biological terms like Dental formula or the meaning behind the various military terms for ship articles are not explained in article beyond a wikilink to their main article. If you see specific issues (Giants2008 noted a bit of prose involving complex baserunning that was confusing that I fixed with a slight rewrite) great! But on the general tone I don't know what to do. A stolen base is a stolen base, an error is an error. Yes that language will sound foreign if you are not familiar with the game, but such is the prose in any article on a specific (rather than general topic) article. Staxringold talkcontribs 20:46, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "This victory advanced the Giants to the 1962 World Series where the defending champion ...". "Where" refers to geographical locations.
  • A perfectly common way of phrasing it in the tabloid press perhaps. Malleus Fatuorum 20:01, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "The Giants acquired both Billy Pierce and Don Larsen ...". What does "both" add here?
    • "... held at least a share of that lead continuously from April 28 to June 7". How can you "hold a share of a lead"?
  • Two teams have the same record leading a division, wild card, or in this case league. For example, when the tie-breaker became necessary (at the end of the traditional regular season) both teams had share of the National League lead because they both had the league-best 101-61 records. Staxringold talkcontribs 19:44, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "... noting their large successes". In what way can a success be considered "large"?
    • "Additionally, the 1962 tie-breaker series was the last MLB tie-breaker ...". Some repetition there, wouldn't you agree?

Malleus Fatuorum 18:32, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment "evened the series" is standard American baseball speak for "tied the series". If this is an issue for reviewers, how about changing the article to "tied the series"? — Rlevse • Talk • 21:29, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 14:44, 28 September 2010 [10].

Hal Block edit

Nominator(s): BashBrannigan (talk) 02:14, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is my second attempted nomination of this article after meeting the concerns expressed. I was able to find some information on Block's personal life which was absent. I've also improved the structure of the article, added a photo and generally improved the prose. BashBrannigan (talk) 02:14, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - no dead external links, dab link to OSS Nikkimaria (talk) 02:39, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Not loving the use of a pencil sketch in the lead at all. If it was by a notable artist (or at least a reliable source), or if no photos existed, I wouldn't mind, but that's simply not the case. There are potential problems with original research (we shouldn't be doing some kind of "this is what person x thinks the subject looked like) and/or copyvios (if it's based on another image). J Milburn (talk) 11:35, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Could you please tell me what photos of Block exist, free or otherwise? I'm aware of none. You said you wouldn't mind the sketch if no photos existed and as far as I know that's the situation. BashBrannigan (talk) 21:42, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You use one further down the article? What was the sketch based on if no other images exist, or is it pure guesswork? J Milburn (talk) 11:35, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Looking at the other images, File:FollowTheGirls.jpg is a purely decorative non-free image (what does it matter what the poster for a film he wrote for looks like?) File:Hope Staff meet Patton.jpg is the same- sure, talk about that point in his career and the meeting, but we most certainly do not need a non-free image to illustrate the fact. File:Hope WWII 44.jpg lacks a real source, and File:Takeitorleaveit.jpg is the same as with the first poster- yeah, his participation in the project was important, but what the poster looked like isn't. The modern photograph is fine. J Milburn (talk) 11:40, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It is incorrect regarding the photo of the staff meeting with Patton that "we most certainly do not need a non-free image to illustrate the fact." The image is the only source I'm aware of indicating Block met Patton. This is explained in detail in the fair use rationale for use of the image. BashBrannigan (talk) 21:42, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We don't use non-free images to "prove" what we're saying in the article. Reference it to a reliable source; if no reliable source exists, don't mention it. J Milburn (talk) 11:35, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My preference would have been for a photo of Block to lead the article, but I'm aware of none. The Patton photo with Block is not appropriate for the lead as, even cropped, it's a profile. The drawing is the best that's available. I can see your point about the poster, but the Patton photo adds significantly to our knowledge of Block and I disagree with your dismissal of it. BashBrannigan (talk) 23:43, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If it wasn't for the fact that this was at FAC, I would have removed all of them without a second glance. Every image in this article bar one has serious issues. The posters still have not been removed, the drawing still leads the article (again, if no photos exist, what the hell is the drawing based on?) the Hope image still has no source. You assert that "the Patton photo adds significantly to our knowledge of Block" but you still haven't explained why. Yes, he met Patton.

Very strong oppose. Great, talk about it. We don't need a non-free image... What the meeting looked like is not important. Seeing as there's not actually been any effort to do anything about this, very strong oppose (with a note that I'm shocked and alarmed that people are supporting...) while the image issues remain. J Milburn (talk) 11:22, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You originally had said you wouldn't object to a drawing if no photo existed. When I said I have been unable to find a photo, your response is essentially to call me a liar. I'm perfectly willing to respond to the question "what the hell is the drawing based on", even though it is absurdly obvious, but not to you. I believe I've been attempting honestly to respond to your questions which I guess is not sufficient as you said "Seeing as there's not actually been any effort to do anything about this". It appears the effort you wanted was to jump to your command. And by the way comments like "I'm shocked and alarmed that people are supporting" which disparage others is intimidating and inappropriate.BashBrannigan (talk) 23:41, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've pointed out that photos existed- you use one in the article. You still haven't actually responded with regards to what the drawing is based on, just asserted that you could. It isn't actually "absurdly obvious"- apparently, there are no photos in existence, so, unless you knew the guy personally... Can we stop with all this sophistry and get to the point? Yes, the response I was looking for was for you to remove the images. Sorry to be so blunt, but we actually have a policy on the issue- these images don't meet the policy, and so shouldn't be there. And yes, it is alarming that people are supporting. Again, sorry, but when articles fail to adhere to our fundamental policies... If there's anything that's "inappropriate" here, it's your refusal to do anything about it. I've been polite, and given you plenty of chance to remove the images yourself, but you've thrown that back in my face. I'm gonna now treat this article like any other, and remove them myself. Do not add them back without solid reasoning... (Also, still oppose due to the lack of decent sourcing on the Bob Hope image, which, low and behold, you've done nothing about. Good show.) J Milburn (talk) 23:48, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You keep misquoting me. I've never said no photos of Block exist, only that I was unable to find any appropriate for the lead. As I said, in the Patton photo Block is in profile and it's not appropriate. The drawing was a last resort on my part. I haven't answered what the drawing is based upon because your reason for asking is to prove that a good photo exists. Essentially to prove I'm a liar. I also disagree you've been polite. BashBrannigan (talk) 00:47, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Could you please tell me what photos of Block exist, free or otherwise? I'm aware of none." I am not misquoting, you said you were aware of no photos of the subject. That may have not been what you meant, but it's certainly not what you said, so do not accuse me of misquoting. And if you're not going to explain what the sketch is based on, that's fine, it can just be removed as unsourced original research. You really are being awkward here. J Milburn (talk) 10:46, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You're being selective here. The reason you were asking me what the drawing is based upon was not to determine whether it was "unsourced original research". That's only what you are saying NOW. Read your own words. You said "if no photos exist, what the hell is the drawing based on?" Determining the source of the drawing is reasonable, but that's not why you were asking at the time. Yes, in one place I may have not used the perfect phrasing, however I made myself very clear afterwards, more than once, that I meant no photos appropriate for the lead. BashBrannigan (talk) 12:08, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, so, so far as you know, there's are no photos in existence that are suitable for the lead. So now, the obvious question (again): On what was the drawing based? J Milburn (talk) 12:33, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Do you mind if I ask why are you asking? I would like to understand what the issues are involved. The drawing is based upon TV video; not one single video, but a few. I was not concerned with plagiarism as it was a creative product. My concern was with possible OR issues. I tried to find something in Wikipedia policy dealing with user-generated portraits before I uploaded it, but couldn't. If someone made a clear argument for why it should not be used, I was fully prepared to accept it. I actually had less concern over the Patton photo. I still believe this an viable image. BashBrannigan (talk) 02:03, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Two possible concerns are OR and copyright. Either this is based upon a decent source, (in which case the source should be used if free, or the picture is a non-free derivative work if it's non-free) or it isn't, in which case it's pretty much original research- it's what you think he looks like, rather than what he does look like. And now, the obvious question- why not use a screenshot from one of those videos? J Milburn (talk) 06:39, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Two reasons for not using a screenshot. First, I didn't think the quality of the video would be good enough. Second, concerns that a screenshot would violate copyright. On the other hand, the Dorothy Kilgallen article uses what appears to be a screenshot. Is that acceptable? BashBrannigan (talk) 23:00, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A non-free screenshot of the subject would be fine under the NFCC to lead the article, if we take it as a given that there are no free images available. J Milburn (talk) 23:03, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll see what I can do about providing a screenshot. Can i ask for a clarification for the Patton photo? Your argument against consisted of "sure, talk about that point in his career and the meeting, but we most certainly do not need a non-free image to illustrate the fact" and "Yes, he met Patton. Great, talk about it. We don't need a non-free image... What the meeting looked like is not important." It seems to me, this same argument could be made about almost ANY photo on Wikipedia. From the section on images [11] the only criteria is "must be relevant to the article that they appear in and be significantly related to the article's topic." Aren't you being too harsh? BashBrannigan (talk) 02:46, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, you're reading the wrong policy page. That's a non-free photo, for which we have the deliberately extremely strict non-free content criteria, the important part of our wider non-free content guidelines. Non-free images need to be a hell of a lot more than simply "relevant to the article that they appear in and be significantly related to the article's topic". Instead, they have to add significantly to reader understanding. As I have explained, this one doesn't. J Milburn (talk) 12:31, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But this photo does add to our understanding. I found no other source that Block met Patton. BashBrannigan (talk) 15:39, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've put a request for some other opinions on this dispute at: [12] BashBrannigan (talk) 16:31, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Erm, what? If you don't have a reliable source that contains the information, don't include it. I am not sure what is unambiguous here. We have non-free content criteria, please respect them. J Milburn (talk) 00:45, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The source for the photo is the Library of Congress. BashBrannigan (talk) 00:58, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Source what is in the article to reliable sources or do not include it. If reliable sources have not mentioned the meeting, it really can't be that important. To repeat, we cannot use a non-free image in an article purely to prove that something happened. J Milburn (talk) 09:48, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So if I came across a photo on the CIA website showing Richard Nixon was actually a space-alien, I would need a newspaper to print it and write about it first, before I could use it in the article on Nixon? Even if the caption on the CIA website said "Nixon was an alien." Is this correct? BashBrannigan (talk) 12:18, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have no idea what you're talking about. Does this have anything to do with you wanting to use a non-free image? J Milburn (talk) 16:27, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm ending this now. I'm not opposing your removal of the photos. BashBrannigan (talk) 22:50, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
All info regarding Block meeting Patton has been removed as per above discussion. BashBrannigan (talk) 03:34, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Query: if all of this is resolved, and the parties agree, can this lengthy discussion please be removed to the talk page here? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:43, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You can move it if you like, but note that I still oppose due to the substandard sourcing on File:Hope WWII 44.jpg. J Milburn (talk) 16:06, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, in that case, it shouldn't be moved (I didn't note an oppose before). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:42, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Removed Hope photo as per objections noted above. BashBrannigan (talk) 02:30, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Very well, I withdraw my opposition, but I haven't looked closely enough at the article to have any other opinion. (Also, my comments above seem to have been chopped up a bit? I'm not fussed, just thought it was odd.) J Milburn (talk) 01:39, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think have the page number in my notes. If I can't find it, I'll get the book from the library and add the pages tomorrow. BashBrannigan (talk) 21:29, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I added page numbers. BashBrannigan (talk) 02:35, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - despite a few issues, this article has no dead links and it looks like it is ready for FA status if there are no further objections. Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:01, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments

  • Ref 1: Pages numbers required
Added page numbers
  • Why are refs 11 and 52 formatted differently? (see also 73 and others related to Time))
  • Ref 12: the citation supporting the present-day value assertion should be properly formatted, not left as a bare link
  • Ref 15 has "P." rather than "p."
  • Ref 17: Publisher? Reliability?
  • Ref 61: What makes http://www.childrenparty.com/partygames/printversion/forfeits.html a reliable source?
  • Ref 104: A Wiktionary link might be better than a dictionary definition. Otherwise this should be properly formatted (publisher, date etc)
formatted properly
  • Ref 105: "p. 2" rather than "p.two"
fixed
  • Ref 114: Consistency required: New York Times here, The New York Times elsewhere
fixed. made consistent
  • Ref 115: Title should be as per source
The title is the same as the source title.
  • Ref 120: Source? publisher?
added the publisher and link to original source.
replaced source. BashBrannigan (talk) 16:58, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 133 has a stray "p." in it
Fixed it
  • Consistency: Ref 134 gives "IBDB"; 137 spells it out
fixed.BashBrannigan (talk) 16:43, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, sources look OK. Brianboulton (talk) 10:34, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 14:44, 28 September 2010 [13].

Art Ross edit

Nominator(s): Kaiser matias (talk) 21:03, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The fourth article of my 1945 Hockey Hall of Fame class to come through here, Art Ross was a major part of hockey for nearly half a century. Player, coach, manager, referee, innovator, he did everything and has a trophy named after him. The article went through GA back in June, and after some delay it should be ready for a final promotion. Kaiser matias (talk) 21:03, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments—no dab links, all external links check out. Imzadi 1979 → 21:11, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments: A couple of minor format nitpiks re refs 6 and 7: these should be formatted so that they reflect the relevant entries in the bibliography. Otherwise sources OK, no other issues. Brianboulton (talk) 18:04, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I took a look at those two references and don't see anything really wrong with them. Kaiser matias (talk) 23:20, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There's nothing "wrong" with them as references – and I made a mistake, I meant 6 and 8, not 6 and 7. These are format nitpicks. Refs are normally by author; the "author" of ref 6 is Associated Press (1938), so for consistency I would have expected the ref to read "Associated Press (1938), p. 13". Likewise, the "author" of ref 8 is "Canadian Press", not "Lewiston", which isn't even the name of the journal. These are relatively simple fixes. Brianboulton (talk) 23:36, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I get what you mean. Understandable and rather obvious thing. I made the changes. Kaiser matias (talk) 23:33, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Is there any information on his tactics as a coach at all? what kind of style and formation? YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:38, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Good question. I'll take a look to see if there is anything I can find. Kaiser matias (talk) 00:26, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Alright so I spent the last few days looking, and have found that there is little to no information about any type of style used. Writing about coaching stategy from the early days of hockey is severly lacking, as there is nothing even written in contemporary news reports. Kaiser matias (talk) 20:32, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I promised a review a while ago and never got around to it... I'll try to do that soon. But, a question of historical accuracy that has bugged me about Dan Bain also: Was Ross (and Bain) actually a 1945 inductee into the Hockey Hall of Fame? The HHOF's website today says they were, but articles from the time do not mention Ross as being among the initial inductees (Toronto Daily Star). Rather, both Ross and Bain were said to have been elected in 1949 according to multiple news articles (Ottawa Citizen). Unfortunately, the HHOF contradicts itself as I've seen books of theirs saying both 1945 and 1949 - and that 9, 11 and 12 members were in the first class. Any ideas on what the most trustworthy source would be? Resolute 17:02, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It probably has something to do with the change over from the International Hockey Hall of Fame. On the IHHOF web site they claim that there is 4 different HOF classes and if you click on the links for the players it gives the corresponding years, but if you look at the pic of the players plaques they say differently. Bain says 1945 next to year but in the pic' it says "selected 1950", Ross, like Bain says 1945 on their info box but the pic' shows "selected - 1946" etc. Not that this helps any it was something I noticed. As for the most trustworthy I would think that something actually from the HHOF would be the thing to go with--Mo Rock...Monstrous (talk) 18:45, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That is pretty much it there. I noticed the same thing when I was expanding the article, so sent an email off to Phil Pritchard, curator of the Hockey Hall of Fame. He said that the IHHOF was the original HHOF, and incducted the players in a couple different years. When the HHOF in its present form was founded in 1960 they retroactively inducted players, and the first 12 players were all listed as being inducted in 1945, even though they technically had not been. The catch to this though is I am not sure if there is any source for this other than a now-deleted email. Kaiser matias (talk) 01:09, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –

  • Personal life: Comma needed after "a suburb of Boston", I believe. This is for the first time this appears; a second use later in the section has the comma afterwards.
  • Playing career: "In November 1910 the NHL decided to impose a salary cap...". I think you got the leagues mixed up here.
  • A couple teams—the Canadiens and Bulldogs—are overlinked towards the end of the section. Also, the Maple Leafs are overlinked in the following section
  • One thing I see several times in the article is a comma following a month, such as in "when Ross retired at the end of October, 1964." Those don't really need to be there, though I suppose it isn't the biggest issue. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 14:29, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Addressed all these. Kaiser matias (talk) 20:32, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
  • I have a few comments before I could support.
  • "he was one of the first to carry the puck up the ice" - unclear to a non-hockey reader, also doesn't explain further thoughout the article.
  • It's better to create an early life section, and a personal life section in the end if you could expand the article some more.
  • Ross also excelled in baseball, football, lacrosse, and motorcycle racing. Source?
  • Though he did not score a goal, Ross was an important part of the Thistles; he started many plays, and had the Montreal crowd cheer for him several times. - choppy prose.
  • Several redlinks of amateur teams that are unlikely to be created, or are easy dyks, decide which ones should be delinked and which one you could create and article for.
  • For the 1908–09 season Ross had demanded a salary of $1,600, though had to settle for $1,200; the average salary of hockey players at the time was $600, while most people earned $50 per month? Source and you don't need to say most people earned 50 dollars a month.
  • Ross knocked out Eddie Oatman in a fight. What caused the fight? I understand if there is no explaination in your source. Same with McGiffen.
  • However, the NHL recorded two additional games the Wanderers had scheduled as defaulted losses for the team, even though the games were not played. Why?
  • adopted new methods in training camp that emphasized physical training. What kind of methods.
  • Ross knew many people associated with hockey throughout Canada and the United States, and utilised them to help build the team. How he utilised them?
  • the second longest of its kind, third longest of its kind, can you reword?
  • There were rumours that Patrick, a Methodist, was drinking heavily and being too friendly with the Bruins players. Source, how friendly?
  • With these players the Bruins finished first in the league in 1937–38 and Ross was named as the second best coach in the league, selected for the end of season All-Star Second Team. Run-on
  • Why he released Weiland of his duties? Was he a bad coach, etc?
  • Why did he hire and want to fire Boucher, no information between the 1945 and 1950 seasons other than hiring Boucher.
  • NHL adopted a new style of goal net that Ross created, why it was deused after 1984.

I'll understand if you don't have answers to some of the comments I had, I'll support once everything is fixed, or why it can't be fixed. Thanks Secret account 22:05, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I addressed everything to what I see as best; if it can be improved, do tell. As for the few concerns about sources, all of them are covered in the following sentences; I felt it was redundant to include the same reference in consecutive sentences when one is sufficient. Kaiser matias (talk) 02:53, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough Support Secret account 03:31, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 14:44, 28 September 2010 [14].

His Band and the Street Choir edit

Nominator(s):  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 13:14, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I now think it meets the FA criteria. This is one of Van Morrison's key albums in his development as an artist, even though it is not remembered as one of his best. I've been working on this article on and off for about two years, so I've about exhausted all the sources I have on the album. I hope you all enjoy reading it and add some reviews. I hope it can pass this time. Thanks  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 13:14, 2 September 2010 (UTC) The images were reviewed during its third nomination and nothing has been changed concerning them since.  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 14:59, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 14:42, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments: A couple of small issues:-

  • There are no citations to three of the bibliography items: Arkany, Van Morrison albums and Van Morrison anthology.
  • Van Morrison albums is out of alphabetical order; the date in the anthologies entry is misplaced.

Otherwise, all sources look OK Brianboulton (talk) 21:33, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Citation 36 is for Ankany, citations 13, 22, 24 and 30 are for Van Morrison Anthology and Van Morrison album is citation 38. I moved the Van Morrison albums cite to the correct place. The date for the Van Morrison Anthology can't be moved unless an author is inserted into that citation, which has not been given on the publication; if you click edit and view that cite the date's actually in the correct place, but it gets moved to the end when the page is viewed normally. Thanks for the review  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 16:04, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The reason I didn't pick up 36 is that you have misspelt the name as "Arkany" in the bibliography - should be "Arkeny" per the reference. As to the others, they need be cited to the sources, not to the publishers of the sources, otherwise the citations are unclear. Brianboulton (talk) 16:23, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK I've fixed them :)  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 16:56, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • WithdrawnSupport — The article has been greatly improved since earlier FACs and I find the prose engaging and generally very well written. There are a few stylistic choices that don't quite work, but this comes down to a personal preference. Presumably the images were all cleared in earlier nominations? Graham Colm (talk) 11:56, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I have withdrawn my support pending the resolution of the serious problems with regard to the use of sources discussed below. Graham Colm (talk) 09:15, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tentative support on 1a. I get a good feeling about this, having read only the top part. But there are a few things to fix up all the same. I think it needs a run-through by someone unfamiliar with the text.

  • Getting towards a rather long sentence as the opening: "His Band and the Street Choir (also referred to as Street Choir),[1] the fourth solo album by Northern Irish singer-songwriter Van Morrison, was released on 15 November 1970 by Warner Bros. Records."
  • Some say "compared with, not to, for contrasts. But it's a false contrast ... "with those of his previous work"?
  • "A capella" does mean no instruments at all, doesn't it.
  • Second para starts and ends with the same point.
  • Comma after "Lebes" (, who).
  • Longish sentence could be shortened a little: "His intention was to create a full a capella record, and with this in mind he assembled a vocal group, which he called the Street Choir, consisting of his friends Dahaud Shaar, Larry Goldsmith and Andrew Robinson, who all lived near Woodstock.[6]" -> "He intended to create a full a capella record, and with this in mind assembled a vocal group he called the Street Choir, consisting of his friends Dahaud Shaar, Larry Goldsmith and Andrew Robinson, who all lived near Woodstock.[6]" Tony (talk) 15:26, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hi and thanks for the review. I've fixed your comments. Yes, a cappella does mean singing without instrumental backing.  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 16:22, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Unresolved 1c/1d issue. Leaning to support on prose and comprehensiveness. A number of concerns, some of them minor:

*"The first recording session began in April 1970 in a church in Woodstock with limited recording equipment." - even though the sentence is short, "in ... in ... with" seems to string us along for too long with too many qualifiers, the last of which could apply either to the church or the session. Consider recasting to tighten and improve flow.

  • I've reworded it and found some more info on recording, so I moved the "with limited recording equipment" to the end of the paragraph with that.  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 16:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "he was a veteran of the Moondance tour but did not play on the actual album." - "actual" is not encyclopedic here; also, we're left unsure which "actual" album is meant: Moondance, or His Band? Perhaps "he was a veteran of the Moondance tour, though he had not played on the album." or somesuch.
  • "Keith Johnson completed the lineup" - does the article use British English? (Irish English??) line-up is hyphenated in British English (likewise out-take, re-released).
  • "In June 1970 Morrison began work on the album at the A&R recording studios on 46th Street in New York City." - again, a short sentence manages to take us on a tour, "on ... at ... on ... in". The street name seems inessential, so cutting that would help.
  • "Morrison abandoned this concept" - the Recording section has covered various things (original intent for first session to be a demo only; material considered; instrumentalists used; the a capella idea); hence, that paragraph opener fails to make it immediately clear what "this concept" refers to.
  • 'He uses the vocal technique of scat singing throughout the track, most notably with the words "Woman, woman, woman, you make me feel alright"' - isn't scat singing wordless? This needs to make clear what's meant by "with".
  • "and features a recurring bass line riff " - "line" seems superfluous
  • "The song was considered by many reviewers as a tribute to Fats Domino,[16][17] but the lyrics in a previous recording are inconsistent with this view:" - though sourced to Heylin, comes over like WP:OR as phrased; in any case, the inconsistency doesn't prove the end result wasn't a tribute. This needs to be in Heylin's voice, not Wikipedia's (e.g., "although Heylin suggests otherwise, because of the lyrics in a previous recording:").
  • I've removed "but the lyrics in a previous recording are inconsistent with this view ... ", because the lyrics in the original recording of "Domino" (before the one Heylin quoted) actually mention "Fats Domino", so I think it's best not to include it.  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 16:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Morrison first recorded "If I Ever Needed Someone" in Autumn 1968;" - see WP:SEASON; the MoS deprecates the use of seasons to identify points in a year
  • ""Virgo Clowns" was first recorded during the early winter of 1969" - ditto
  • "represents a shot from a gun, consistant with the American outlaw theme" - sp (consistent)
  • "The second recording session yielded the remaining material.[9] "Call Me Up in Dreamland" is a gospel-style composition. The Street Choir feature conspicuously in the song; biographer Ken Brooks relates this to the fact that the album originally was to be recorded a cappella" - what point is Brooks making here? Why say this about this song as opposed to any other? Suggest cutting unless it can be elaborated upon.
  • "They also refer to Morrison and Janet Planet's life at the time, as Planet remembered, "We were finally, really living in a dreamland—believe it or not—it was a magical time."" - unclear what the effect of "as Planet remembered" is here. I suspect it's not encyclopedic, whatever it means

*"Because of these lyrics Heylin was led to believe that the song refers to the time when Morrison was ripped off by the music industry" - why the past tense for Heylin's view? It's not contrasted with another, as far as I can see. Also, "ripped off" can't be encyclopedic ... can it? And regardless of terminology, it's not Wikipedia's role to refer to "the time when Morrison was ripped off by the music industry." That needs to be in Heylin's voice, or Morrison's, or termed neutrally.

  • Somebody told me before that I should change biographer's opinions to past tense. I may have got the wrong end of the stick, but I've changed it back. Heylin uses "ripped off"; can you suggest something better please, I'm not sure what else to use?  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 16:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Past tense is fine for plain words like "said" and "wrote", but here, we have "was led to believe": unlike the plain terms, this invites speculation that (a) the belief was mistaken; (b) he later believed something different; (c) others always believed something different; (d) Wikipedia believes something different ... and so on. Additionally, it can produce the expectation that we will soon be told about how and why he was wrong to believe such a thing. And to refer to Heylin's belief, which involves a view that Morrison was "ripped off" by the music industry, we need to quote Heylin. So, we can quote whatever he says on page 221 that includes that term. That way, Wikipedia avoids making any assertion about whether or not Morrison was "ripped off"; it remains something Heylin said. PL290 (talk)
  • Because of these lyrics Heylin wrote that the song refers to the time when Morrison was "ripped off" by the music industry remains an assertion by Wikipedia that such rip-off occurred. But you're only citing something Heylin said. As I suggested above, the simplest way to resolve the 1c/1d issue would be to fully quote Heylin. PL290 (talk) 18:34, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • That has solved the 1c/1d issue, but the result now fails to give the reader any context for understanding what's referred to. Heylin wrote that "such songs [as "Street Choir"] were spawned by an increasing awareness of just how badly ripped off he had been". Nowhere in the article does the reader find anything about a rip-off to connect with this quote. So the quote doesn't add to the reader's understanding of they lyric, "Why did you let me down / And now that things are better off / Why do you come around". If Heylin's quote is to be meaningful here, it needs to include the part where he identifies what he's referring to, i.e., assuming it was correct before, the music industry.PL290 (talk) 11:27, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*"Ken Brooks assumed that the lyric "Move On Up" is another reference " - again, why the past tense, when no contrasting view accompanies? (Or are these two I've mentioned intended to be contrasted with each other? If so, it needs work to make that apparent.)

  • Ken Brooks assumed/assumes; tense change hasn't really helped. Same point as above, the word is the problem. Whether you use present or past tense, a plain term is more encyclopedic to express a biographer's opinion without inviting speculation (writes/wrote, says/said, in the view of Brooks, x is the case, etc.) PL290 (talk) 19:07, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Writer Brian Hinton described the lyrics as perversely bitter,[17] and Jon Landau felt "Street Choir" was one of the "two or three finest songs" of Morrison's career because of its "musical and poetic energy"." - the Landau part doesn't really relate to the Hinton; if it must be one sentence, "and" seems the wrong linking word as it produces the expectation that what follows will perhaps reinforce the view of bitterness. (Also there's that past tense again, "felt"; I don't think it's encyclopedic, unlike said, wrote etc.)

*"Warner Bros. Records scheduled His Band and the Street Choir for rush-release ... This led the company to mistitle the promotional releases as His Band and Street Choir and prepare an incorrectly ordered track listing." - I doubt that the rush-release led the company to do those things; it produced conditions under which they made those mistakes.

  • 'Morrison dismissed these photos as "rubbish", however Johnny Rogan commented that the front cover looks far worse; it included a "hilarious" image' - that use of however requires a preceding semicolon and a trailing comma; however, in this case, all things considered, I suggest ending the sentence there instead ("rubbish". However, Johnny Rogan commented).
  • Still lacks the comma after "however": However Johnny Rogan commented means in whatever way Johnny Rogan commented. PL290 (talk) 19:07, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*The Packaging section seems to dwell too much on Morrison's beard and Kaftan. They take up about half the section. There may not be much else to say about the packaging, but this seems imbalanced. A trim seems in order.

  • "The final single, "Call Me Up in Dreamland", managed only two weeks on the Billboard Hot 100 by reaching number 95" - "by" seems inapplicable.
  • Per MOS:QUOTE, blockquote is for quotes of more than four lines, so the couple of two-and-a-half-line blockquotes seem incongruous; however, others may feel differently, and the MoS may need tightening on this point.
  • "Despite this assistant producer and drummer" - needs a comma after this.

PL290 (talk) 14:07, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Just noticed a section title Morrison and the musician's responses. A few problems with that:
    • It should be a plural possessive, musicians', as there were numerous musicians
    • However, it's really all about Morrison's response. That calls the section title into further question.
  • I don't think that helps. There were numerous musicians. More on this section below. PL290 (talk) 11:27, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Morrison's quote in illustration of "regarded Street Choir poorly later" doesn't actually seem to be about the music at all, but only the album cover and title: "Somebody else got control of it and got the cover and all that shit while I was on the West Coast. I knew what was happening to it, but it was like I couldn't stop it. I'd given my business thing over to someone else and although I had final approval on things, they just went ahead and did the wrong thing. They told the record company it was one thing and it wasn't. So the whole thing went wrong."
    There is a long passage in Yorke about Morrison's distaste of the album, covering many different aspects of the album. The quote in the article was originally much longer, but I was advised to cut it down.  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 20:22, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • That was probably because it was a subsection of Reception until recently. It should probably be reinstated. More on this below. PL290 (talk) 11:27, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • The statement following it, "Despite this, assistant producer and drummer Dahaud Shaar recalled that Morrison had positive feelings towards the album at the time of its release", is a WP:SYNTH issue: you are combining two facts to imply a new conclusion (that Morrison may be incorrect to say he had negative feelings towards the album at the time of its release—if indeed he did say that). The "recollection" of those two people relates only to their impression of Morrison's feelings—quite a different thing.
  • Heylin makes the link between the two quotes, however a better quote is used in Yorke, which is used in the article instead. The Dahaud Shaar quote was removed in a previous FAC, which does relate to the album and not Morrison's feelings. Do you think I should reinstate the quote?  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 20:22, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Probably. See below: this section needs to decide its role. PL290 (talk) 11:27, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Regardless of any of the foregoing, I don't think any of this belongs as a subsection of Reception.
  • This role of the Morrison and the musicians' responses section is still strange. One way or another, this section needs to decide its role and be titled and populated accordingly. Adding a sentence about Planet's view, to justify the section title, has not really helped: this is still not about "the musicians" at all (there were lots of musicians). Additionally, the summary in the lead, that he came to regard Street Choir poorly in later years, is not backed up as it should be by this section, which only says that right at the time of release, he was upset by someone else's choice of packaging and title. The quote you say was removed is probably more applicable now the section is no longer part of Reception. Consider titling the section something to the effect of Morrison's dissatisfaction and filling it with all the facts relating to that. PL290 (talk) 11:27, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

PL290 (talk) 16:33, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much for the review PL290.  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 16:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

  • Commas: "Despite this assistant producer and drummer Dahaud Shaar recalled that ...". It's almost mandatory after "this". Can you check through for such instances (sentence-initial)? Tony (talk) 15:10, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I've checked the article and I can't find any other comma mistakes, that I'm able to detect.  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 17:29, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

  • Recording section of article reads: Keyboardist Alan Hand joined Morrison's band in late April 1970, replacing Jef Labes, who had left the band to move to Israel. The reference given for this statement in Heylin's book, page 238 reads: "JEFF LABES: I left the band. I actually left the country [later that year and] moved to Israel." It seems clear enough that he didn't leave to move to Israel: [later that year] would not be in or before April of 1970. Minor point, perhaps, but still a misstatement of facts. Agadant (talk) 12:29, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I know how Jef Labes is actually spelled, but I was quoting from the book exactly as it was written. What is your point bringing this up? It serves to be distracting from the main issue that you misinterpreted the material. This article is up for FA. You need to be very careful about reading and stating the material. Agadant (talk) 18:01, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again from Recording section: "The first recording session began between March and May 1970 at a small church in Woodstock." —no reference for these dates on Heylin, page 239 or Heylin, page 520... "wrote three new songs ("Gypsy Queen", "Crazy Face" and "Give Me a Kiss"), and recorded three instrumentals. Limited recording equipment was used, operated by engineer Elliot Scheiner," —Heylin, page 238, -not 239, reads: "Aside from a couple of spatial instrumental jams, all Morrison seemed to have in his notebook was lightweight fillers like 'Crazy Face' and 'Give Me a Kiss'."—Heylin, p. 239 reads: "Unconcerned by the marked difference between a modern sixteen-track studio like A&R and a derelict church, Morrison turned to drummer Dauod Shaw for technical input..." Again from this same paragraph in the Recording section: "However, according to biographer Clinton Heylin, Scheiner and Morrison had a disagreement during this session"— Heylin, p. 239 reads: "By the time the band transferred to A&R... Engineer Elliot Scheiner, back at the console... However, at some point during this first set of sessions, Scheiner and Morrison had an exchange of words"... Again from Recording section: "In June 1970 Morrison began work on the album at the A&R recording studios in New York City."— Heylin, p. 520 reads: "Spring 1970? A&R Recording Studios"
  • The first recording session, as marked by Heylin on p.520 was recorded in spring 1970 (March to May), with engineer Elliot Scheiner. I must have got a bit muddled yeasterday when I changed the page number for the church in Woodstock ref from 238 to 239, when it was on 238 in the first place. Heylin notes on p.238 that he recorded new songs "Crazy Face" and "Give Me a Kiss", old songs "Domino", "If I Ever Needed Someone", "Funny Face" and "I've Been Working" and some instrumentals, while on page 520 he lists all the above songs minus "Gypsy Queen", so I changed the wording to "During its course Morrison worked on leftover material from his previous two albums (Astral Weeks and Moondance), recorded three songs that he had not performed in the studio before ("Gypsy Queen", "Crazy Face" and "Give Me a Kiss"), as well as three instrumentals." And for this last bit you've missed out the key points of the quotes from the book "Engineer Elliot Scheiner, back at the console after fulfilling post-production duties on Moondance ... Morrison and Scheiner had an exchange of words and Scheiner found himself out in the cold, with a meaningless 'Production Co-ordinator' credit to his name ... ", which is a disagreement if he was dropped for Dahaud Shaar. The second recording session was in the summer 1970, according to p.520, which is June to August, so I've changed it from June to June to August.  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 17:13, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I read all of the material carefully and didn't miss out the key points to anything. You have interpreted contradictory and very unclear material in a manner that you prefer. Your job as the trusted editor should be to only use material that is not questionable with contradictory references in the same book. You can't pick and choose whichever you prefer. Well, at least I wouldn't think so. Agadant (talk) 17:40, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
BTW: It doesn't say "some instrumentals" as you claim above and wrote as three in the article—it definitely says, "a couple of spatial instrumental jams" on page 238— couple means two, if I'm not mistaken. Agadant (talk) 19:39, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Non of this is contradictory, as what I've written above explains this. The only time when something is contradictory is the recording location, which is marked "?A&R Recording Studios" on p.520, which should be ignored because of the question mark. Heylin's sources are clear in the main body of the book where the album was actually recorded.  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 17:49, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It seems to be contradictory about which session Elliot Scheiner was engineer on and replaced by Shaw. Am I reading this correctly? —Heylin, p. 239 reads: "By the time the band transferred to A&R, Morrison seemed in a real hurry to get in and out. As usual, he was hoping to cut the whole thing live, which initially helped push things along. Engineer Elliot Scheiner, back at the console after fulfilling post-production duties on Moondance...... However, at some point during this first set of sessions, Scheiner and Morrison had an exchange of words"... "Morrison turned to drummer Dauod Shaw for technical input...*That doesn't say that it was during the demo sessions at the church that Scheiner and Morrison had an exchange of words, it says at A&R and Shaw was then co-producer. By the way, I do know that Dauod Shaw is also called Dauod Shaar and also David Shaw, but I'm using it as in Heylin's book. Agadant (talk) 19:27, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I always read "By this time" as Heylin talking about before when "the band transferred to A&R", so I've corrected the recording section.  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 17:25, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But it doesn't say "By this time", it says "By the time". There's a big difference in the meaning. Agadant (talk) 19:45, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's as far as I've checked for now and I can't check all references out, as I don't have all the books used as sources. Agadant (talk) 15:05, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Heylin writes both His Band and the Street Choir recording sessions on p.520 as "?A&R Recording Studios", which implies he doesn't know where they were recorded, but he makes it clear in the main part of the book that it was recorded in a church and the A&R Recording Studios.  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 17:13, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Again a use of material that is contradictory in the same book with 'your' preference being used. Agadant (talk) 17:47, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not my preference. I misinterpreted this sentence.  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 19:52, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Composition section: "the simple lyrics lack the level of poetry popularly expected from Morrison's work." [ref: Heylin, p. 235]—No where on this page does it speak of "the level of poetry popularly expected from Morrison's work." Agadant (talk) 01:54, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Heylin, p. 235 refers to his "profound distrust of those who sought to interpret his lyrics" and says, "he would dramatically compress the number of levels on which the lyrics could operate, denying his audience any real songs open to such literary analysis." I don't see how "the level of poetry" statement formerly in the article would be arrived at by Heylin's writing on this page. Agadant (talk) 16:09, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He uses the vocal technique of scat singing throughout the track, most notably around the words "Woman, woman, woman, you make me feel alright".[10] According to wiki definition: Scat singing is vocal improvisation with wordless vocables, nonsense syllables or without words at all. —Jon Landau's article used as a reference says only: "The chorus in which the horns and Van's voice come together to say 'Woman, woman, woman, you make me feel alright' is breathtaking."Agadant (talk) 02:43, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Van Morrison regarded Street Choir poorly later in his career, as he told biographer Ritchie Yorke in 1973—later in his career is 1973? and this is written in 2010 about a career that has spanned 50 years- it seems like a poor choice of wording. Agadant (talk) 12:11, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Morrison intended to create a full a capella record, and with this in mind assembled a vocal group he called the Street Choir, consisting of his friends Dahaud Shaar, Larry Goldsmith and Andrew Robinson, who all lived near Woodstock."[Rogan, p. 257]. *Rogan, p. 257 actually says:"Originally, Morrison had envisaged recording a pure a cappella album, featuring a select group of friends and musicians, including his wife Janet." *It seems clear from the page referenced that Morrison had always intended Janet to sing on the album. Why is this misstated?
  • I think I missed this for some reason - it seems pretty obvious, but I only looked at the quote that preceded this statement.  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 19:46, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He had wanted the choir to feature only male vocalists, but was persuaded to allow three women to join: Morrison's then wife, Janet "Planet" Rigsbee, and the wives of Keith Johnson and Jack Schroer (Martha Velez and Ellen Schroer)." [Collis, p. 121] *Collis, p. 121 actually only gives a listing of the Street Choir of singers-there is nothing about "only male vocalists". Agadant (talk) 13:20, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead section needs to be looked at for inaccuracies: For one this statement seems to be an untruth: "but plans for a rush-release forced him to finish the album using some of the demo session's tracks." *I don't think this statement can be backed up anywhere. Another one: "Morrison was dissatisfied with the addition of female vocalists to the choir" *As he originally intended Janet to sing on the album, this statement is in fact not true and perhaps inaccurately portrays him in a male chauvinist manner. This is far from true, as he has readily employed and valued female musicians and backing vocalists. Agadant (talk) 14:01, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "However, Morrison was later persuaded to abandon the use of a cappella when the band from the demo tracks was used on all the songs" [Rogan, p. 257] * Rogan, p. 257 does not contain information or any mention at all concerning this statement. Why is it slipped into the material about the Street Choir that is written about and referenced to Rogan, page 257? Agadant (talk) 18:40, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "I wanted these certain guys to form an a cappella group so that I could cut a lot of songs with just maybe one guitar. But it didn't turn out."[Collis, p. 122] * This information is not included on Page 122 in Collis' book... Is it just me or is it becoming discouraging and rather sad that this article was put up for FA review now 4 times and seems to have been based on mostly fabrications and wrongly attributed sourcing? It really is a disservice to the biographers that their work has been misattributed on Wikipedia. Agadant (talk) 18:57, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll just have to accept your word on this one. Agadant (talk) 23:04, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, there was a serious lack of comprehension of the material on the recording sessions and where they took place, etc. and unfortunately you built the article around that misinterpretation and misrepresentation. (The article is now just a shell of its former self) There also seems to be a very casual disregard for facts and the trusted position as editor of "getting it right". Most importantly, there were other serious misattributions in sourcing unrelated information in Heylin and other biographies as listed above (Rogan, Collis) [and more Heylin below] and with reviews used for references. Agadant (talk) 23:04, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • His Band and the Street Choir was first released on LP on November 15, 1970 and was Morrison's third record to be produced for Warner Bros. [Heylin, p. 221] *The release date and LP information in this sentence is not mentioned on Page 221 of Heylin's book. Agadant (talk) 23:04, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Janet Planet holds the view that "There is much to love about the songs on this album: 'Blue Money', 'Crazy Face', 'Call Me Up in Dreamland', 'Domino' - these are just great songs in any era."[Heylin, p. 241]. *This quotation actually appears on the album sleeve-notes. Heylin precedes it with "As part of her new public role, Janet even became his sleeve-note writer." As such, would this quotation deserve a place in the musicians' response section as it would necessarily be commercially slanted? On another humourous level to lighten things up, it's odd to see that Janet, who originally was written up in the article as not desired by Morrison to be included in the Street Choir at all, now has enough importance in the album's significance to voice her opinion of it. (Surely, I'm allowed to be humourous and/or sarcastic after all the research I have put in here on the references.) Agadant (talk) 16:49, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've expressed my concerns before that this article was wrongly sourced in many instances: Here But no one cared... WHY IS THAT?? I don't go about promoting myself and sucking up to the reviewers, admins, etc.. I spend as much of my free time as possible on Wiki only working, but I think I should have a reputation for being reliable and trust-worthy and have no personal motivations against this editor, only an abiding concern for the quality of his work and his inability to comprehend and/or care very much if he uses sources incorrectly. Agadant (talk) 13:37, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 14:44, 28 September 2010 [15].

Paul Krichell edit

Nominator(s): Secret account 16:26, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Paul Krichell was one of the scouts of the New York Yankees from 1920 to his death. His involvement included signing several future Hall of Famers. Everything in the FAC, with the exception of adding some extra stats to his playing career which I would add later tonight was taken care of. It might need a copyedit as I expanded it another 1,000 or so bytes. Thanks for Wizardman for his copyediting of the article. Thanks Secret account 16:26, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - Alttext for first image - "He seems surprised that he was taking a picture, as his face shows" makes little sense. You mean "His facial expression indicates that he did not expect to be photographed" ? Otherwise, great article. Claritas § 16:41, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - check other alttexts for punctuation errors. Claritas § 16:45, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Third alttext - "He is slightly looking away from the camera with a serious stare. An autograph of the subject is also seen in the middle of the picture." needs re-writing. Claritas § 16:47, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I rewrote it, and used your example. Thanks Secret account 18:18, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - no dabs or deadlinks. PL290 (talk) 17:19, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - concerning prose quality, it's generally fine, but the third paragraph of the 1940s-1950s section seems a little informal - "back in 1948" etc, and I think it could do with some work. Claritas § 18:25, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm not a good copyeditor but I moved things around Secret account 20:31, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • No outstanding problems there - I've tweaked it very slightly. Claritas § 09:21, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comment: One nitpick: be consistent in your page number formats. Sometimes "p." is used, sometimes not. Otherwise all sources look OK Brianboulton (talk) 19:02, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments: I tried to be nitpicky to make up for knowing the material well and possibly not seeing jargon issues. Here's what I found:
    • "His recommendation of Stengel for manager of the Yankees helped persuade their front office to hire Stengel in 1948." The second Stengel could just say "him" as I think it's fairly obvious who that would refer to.
    • "The St. Louis Browns, signed Krichell in 1911. He was used as a backup catcher during his career." comma unnecessary, plus these two sentences would work better combined, I think.
    • "Krichell was the starting catcher for the Buffalo Bisons when Babe Ruth made his proffesional debut" misspelling.
    • I don't think Lou Gehrig needs to be linked in the image caption, since he's linked in the two paragraphs next to the image.
    • "Krichell's most significant signing for the Yankees was of Lou Gehrig," of should be removed, doesn't sound right with it included.
    • "(who never advanced to the Majors)" when used informally such as this, majors is lowercase, at least that how I've seen it every time.
    • "and was planning to sign both of them when Barrow telegramed from New York," telegraphed sounds better, though if you prefer it as is, the spelling is telegrammed.
    • "Krichell referred Greenberg to the Detroit Tigers, who offered him a contract." I'd prefer a cite that shows Krichell was the one that referred Greenberg to Detroit; I don't mind it as is, but I could see other users wanting that.
    • "He signed Rizzuto for $75 a month ($0 in 2010)" I can't figure out why this isn't showing up right (the template format looks fine to me). I'd just remove it but I don't know if it's required to keep in since all the other figures have it.
    • "Harry Nicolas was a high-school baseball star" high school isn't hyphenated.
    • I would prefer that frequently-used books (i.e. Eig, Frommer) be split out into the References section, with the reflist becoming a Notes section. This way it's easier to find them rather than trying to find its first use hidden in the refs.

Wizardman Operation Big Bear 22:49, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • I fixed all your concerns with the exception of the last one, I prefer that style and don't have the time to fix the referencing of the article, as I have a WP:FAR I have to focus on, along with schoolwork I'm barely on at this point. If anyone wants to do it that way, it's fine with me as I do it sometimes as well. Secret account 01:13, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments – Opposed at the first FAC, but don't think that's necessary here. I did read through the whole article and came up with the following thoughts:

  • Playing and managing career: "The St. Louis Browns signed Krichell in 1911 where was used...". Grammatical error, and the order isn't great either. How about "Krichell signed in 1911 with the St. Louis Browns, who used him as a backup catcher during his career."?
  • The issues from the first FAC about the given reference not saying Krichell was platooning with Jim Stephens or having a weak fielding percentage for the league remain unresolved.
  • Discovery of Gehrig: The Yankee Stadium link goes to the new stadium, not the old one that is probably intended to be linked. Also, I'm not sure the link is needed, given the presence of one earlier.
  • "Huggins sent Gehrig to the Hartford Senators, where after a hot start in Hartford". Some redundancy that can be removed there; also, I'm unsure "hot start" is the kind of tone FAs should have.
  • 1920s: "for a outfielder named Dusty Cooke." "a" → "an". Do the same for "a injury-prone backup outfielder".
  • 1930s: Comma needed before "during an interview with J. G. Taylor Spink".
  • The Sporting News should be italicized.
  • 1940–1950s: "The Yankees send Krichell to scout him...". "send" → "sent".
  • If his Stengel recommendation is sourced here, it probably doesn't need to be referenced in the lead.
  • Final days: Include the abbreviated version of BBWAA right after the full version, in parentheses. This helps avoid confusion, even in cases like this where most people will figure it out easily.
  • Italics would be good for New York Journal American. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 01:50, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Image review: No issues with the three photographs; all are verifiably in the public domain. Jappalang (talk) 09:39, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support Comment - I'm copyediting as I go as bits and peices here and there could do with a bit of a massage, but revert me if I goof up the meaning. I'll jot queries below: Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:12, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
the two were sent to the Boston Red Sox for cash considerations - I am unsure what this means.

I think I can provisionally support pending the above query. I am okay with the prose and comprehensiveness - I can't see any prose clangers otherwise, but someone else might be able to iron prose out a little more, which would be good. Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:23, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That'll do me :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:53, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Just very minor points - Spelling: "Gehrig went though a long slump"; confusing sentences: "Other times, Krichell collected...", "put them through a grueling four-day workout. It normally consisted of a workout..." (repetition of workout). Also delete "grueling". Otherwise fine. Aiken (talk) 23:24, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose:
  • Update, copyedit issues seem mostly resolved now, but I remain worried about comprehensiveness. I will do some searching on my library database, and get back to this today or tomorrow. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:18, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Why are websites (as opposed to books, periodicals, journals, newspapers) italicized in the citations (see WP:ITALICS). (I think this is OK. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:32, 19 September 2010 (UTC))[reply]
  2. Book sources that are used more than once, and referenced with a short citation, could be listed in a separate Biblio or References section to make it easier to see what the short citations refer to without having to scan the entire list of Notes.
    Fixing it should be done by tomorrow. Secret account 04:45, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Prose review needed: (samples ONLY). "He started out as a catcher ... " He started "out"? What... his professional career, semi-pro, what? He had no baseball experience prior to that? High school? "Krichell also spent part of the 1909, and 1910, seasons ... " Why the commas? "Krichell signed in 1911 with the St. Louis Browns, who used him as a backup catcher during his career." During his career is redundant. Samples only, prose check needed. "He ended up on the same train ... " colloquial. The prose is choppy and unconnected in several places, with no relationship between sentences. "Krichell and Coakley decided to meet Gehrig in Yankee Stadium for ... " decided to meet ?
    Asked a couple of editors if they could copyedit the article for me, I don't understand the colloquial part, fixed all the rest of your suggestions. Secret account 04:45, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Is there nothing on his childhood or early background in sources?
    I went though the sources, what I got is the only thing found, there isn't no biography of the subject. Secret account 04:45, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  5. "During a 1912 game against the Detroit Tigers, Ty Cobb stole second, third, and home plate in the same inning against Krichell." Non-baseball fans may not understand this sentence (that he was catching, you steal against a catcher), and the sentence will seem strangely out of place for non-baseball fans, better context needed. Was he considered a weak catcher? In the next paragraph, we see he was released, but this could all flow better.
    He was considered a weak catcher but I don't have the source for it without going to original research, as for that statement, I can't reword it on a non-baseball way. Secret account 04:45, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I'll look at it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:15, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I tried, but it still doesn't help a non-baseball person understand that you steal against a catcher. Don't know how to fix it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:21, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  6. "He resigned on June 27, 1918, after two wins were taken from him because he used a player not under contract.[13]" No more detail? For someone considered one of baseball's best scouts, there seems to be a lack of detail. "He worked with the shipyards during World War I." Choppy prose, unconnected to text around it, or some rearrangement of paragraphs needed in this entire section. Nothing about his time with the Red Sox? It just seems strange to me that we have so little detail on someone "Considered to be one of the greatest scouts in baseball history," what library research has been done?
    There's nothing special about being a coach in a MLB team, you won't find information on that unless you do something really extraordinary, that goes for all baseball coaches articles. As with the other information, I think I could find it in my sources, especially the New York Baseball Coach one (should be manager), I think there was further detail on the incident, need to look at google books. Secret account 04:45, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  7. "Barrow thought Krichell was the right man to upgrade the scouting staff ... " Why?
    Source didn't give why. Secret account 04:45, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  8. This source shows a different quote for what Krichell said when he saw Gehrig; double check your source? Done, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:33, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  9. "Krichell is considered one of the greatest scouts in baseball history" has only one source; is one book sufficient to make this statement, or should it be attributed? (The book is, after all, about the Yankees rather than baseball in general.)
    There's a few more books, and a website that the baseball wikiproject approved as reliable that says that. Should I add the website. Secret account 04:45, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A "brilliant" polished story is not woven here, the prose needs work, and the reader does not see a compelling story of why he was the greatest ever, or what distinguished him from other scouts.

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:05, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Struck some. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:15, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll try to work on the article when I could, I exausted all the avaliable sources btw the NYT. There hasn't been a book written on the subject, or Yankees scouting in general, I heard in one of my sources that Krichell wrote an book about the subject of scouting, let me see if I could find that, but yea you do make some valid points, which some of which I can't fix. The quote was on the book (which I own). I was planning to do a dissation on the Yankees scouting system when I get to my PHD, I'm planning to visit the Baseball Hall of Fame in November. Maybe I could complete the story there. I'll work on the prose tommorrow morning. Wait until Monday to see what I could find with his early life etc. Secret account 01:51, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, pls ping me when you want me to have another look. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:39, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pending, I intend to search my local library database to see if there are more sources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:54, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • I must sustain my oppose on 1c, that a through literature survey is needed. I have access to my library's online databases from home, and placed a list of sources that turn up with only that search. A "real" trip to a library is needed to track down these additional sources and complete this article. Sorry, Secret-- it's still a fine article, but just needs a bit more research and polishing. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:16, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: I've begun a read through and copy-edit, just a few points I can't clear up.

  • I tweaked the lead (I thought "dynasty" was a bit too grand!) but would it be possible to put some numbers on how successful his legacy was: i.e. how many trophys, championships (or whatever else baseball has, pardon my ignorance!) the team won in his time? Also (I haven't finished the rest of the article yet) is there anything in the main text which comments directly on this. I haven't noticed anything on a skim through but I could be wrong.
  • The Yankees had a "two man scouting rotation". Did Krichell replace both of them and do the job on his own, or become one of the two men?
    • I have no idea as the source doesn't state it, I'll look at the Barrow source, I bought the book so it should be coming any day now. Secret account 23:16, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree with the comment on Ty Cobb above, but improving it is beyond my baseball knowledge.
    • I don't know how to improve it beyond following the links. Secret account 23:16, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the Gehrig section has too much prominence, and is only connected with Krichell in passing (unless there's something I haven't come to yet). It reads too much like a description from an autobiography or collection of reminiscences and is far too detailed. I've cut it back, feel it could go even briefer, but appreciate that I could be missing something here. Happy to discuss!
    • I feel it's appropriate the triming, it doesn't need to be trimmed further, as that was his most important signing, and my Gehrig book source states that. Secret account 23:16, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Similar with the Foxx and Cochrane section. Is it significant he failed to sign them? Unless they went on to incredible careers, I'd cut this paragraph. As it is, I've trimmed it.
    • I cut the paragraph, it was a primary source so who knows if it was Krichell, though I have secondary sources that they were scouted by the Yankees, and Krichell worked in the area so I'm 90% sure the story is true, but it belongs on the individual players pages. They weren't a "discovery" by Krichell standards. Secret account 23:16, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Did he drive Ruth to hospital and then take a train to NY? I've tweaked it to read like this.
  • When did Krichell sign Durocher, Lazzeri and Koenig? No year is given, unless it is the same year of Ruth's illness, but it needs making explicit.

More to follow. --Sarastro1 (talk) 22:12, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Is Lazerri's epilepsy relevant? It seemed to break up the flow, so I took it out, but put it back if it's important. And it is!! --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:57, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and Mike Gazella, its main backup": Not sure what this means, so left it.
  • It means a bench player, I'm surprised that Backup (sports) isn't created yet. I'll find the time to create the article. Secret account 22:11, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reworded "sweep" as I think it's too jargony. Revert if you disagree.
  • "...and the Yankees gave up on both players": Who is the second player? Found this section a little confusing but tried to clear it up.
  • Clafified. Secret account 22:11, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are there any better section titles than 1930s, 1940s-50s: e.g. Ivy League focus?
  • Can't think of better section titles, for example Ivy League focus is not all about Ivy League pitchers. Secret account 22:11, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

--Sarastro1 (talk) 21:54, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Comment: I think I've done what I can, but I've hit the limit of my baseball knowledge so I'm not sure I can do much more. The legacy and scouting style section give a good flavour of why he was so good, but not sure the main bits give quite as strong an impression as I suspect was the case. But I'm not sure it is possible to do much about that. Maybe make it more explicit that he saw what others passed up? It already does to some extent, maybe a touch more? As above, I think it needs some more about his being regarded as the best ever scout. Have any prominent players, writers or commentators said anything to that effect? That might be useful. And I think something about what the team achieved with the players he discovered: i.e. what was the playing record, what did the team win in that time, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sarastro1 (talk • contribs)

Comments –

  • I was asked to come back and look at the article, and found quite a few of the "copyedit issues" mentioned by Sandy. Surprising what can creep into an article after you review it, even when good copy-editing occurs.
  • I also made an attempt to find where flow could be improved, and I thought the worst area in this regard was 1940s–1950s, which jumps around from signing to signing, and from the signings to his staff expansion. I think topic sentences of some kind would be helpful in creating flow. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 03:47, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'll try to fix Sarastro, and your concerns by Sunday, if the FA fails by then as many of my book sourcing are arriving, but little about Krichell himself. If the nomination fails by then, I'll take a trip to the Baseball Hall of Fame library during Thanksgiving weekend and I'll likely get to expand it some more. If nothing new shows up there, then that's a problem which can't be fixed. Secret account 02:10, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • If sources are still needed, then there's a good article in the February 14, 1935 issue of the Sporting News that could be useful. It gives a bit of scouting info when he was on the Red Sox, which isn't covered much here, so there's that. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 17:23, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Also February 17, 1954, March 21, 1956, and June 12, 1957 could be useful. You probably went through most of these already, but in case you didn't there they are. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 17:26, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yea I saw the sources already, with the Red Sox sourcing info, one player mentioned never reached the big leagues, another player didn't play for the Red Sox but for another club, and the last player only played one game as a Red Sox, nothing notable. A could add the Bridgeport information though. Secret account 22:39, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 14:44, 28 September 2010 [16].

No Rest for the Wicked (Supernatural) edit

Nominator(s): Ωphois 20:55, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I feel it is up to FA standards. Ωphois 20:55, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments -
  • Current ref 24 (Supernatural creator..) Eclipse magazine should be italicized as it is earlier in the refs. Also, what makes this a reliable source?
    • Fixed. This has precedence in FA's such as 200 (Stargate SG-1) and Fresh Blood (Supernatural). Ωphois 00:56, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Also, Eclipse Magazine is a source for reviews for Rotten Tomatoes. To be one, it must follow guidelines listed here. One such rule is "Publications must also show a consistent standard of professionalism, writing quality, and editorial integrity across all reviews and articles", which I feel makes it a reliable source. Ωphois 01:04, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Current ref 16 .. you have the link to the webarchive version only (which wouldn't load for me) need the "original" also. Likewise, what makes this a reliable source?
    • The archived version sometimes takes a while to load, and unfortunately the original is dead. The site has been used as a source for BuddyTV articles here and here. The article's author, Cynthia Boris, has also written an article for Nurseweek here. Ωphois 00:56, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:03, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Leaving these out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:10, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment on Refs - Personally, although the sites themselves don't look like more that I'd use for general purposes, I've always been of the mind that personally conducted Q&As should be considered "reliable" sources of info so long as the source itself doesn't have a history of falsifying information - which you can usually find out with simple Google searches.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 00:01, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 05:58, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quick Comment: Episode listed as the 95th greatest television episode of all time by TV Guide magazine in the June 15, 2009 issue. Section can be read here. Should probably be added to the "Reception" section for this article. The Flash I am Jack's complete lack of surprise 21:41, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks, but forums cannot be used as reliable sources. I can't find this in anything other than forums. Ωphois 01:45, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I wasn't saying cite the forum, I was saying cite the actual magazine. It was published in print. You can just see what the magazine wrote on the forum link. It used to be viewable on the website, but they removed it for whatever reason. If you don't trust it, though, it's fine, I was just saying the more information (particularly one saying it was among the greatest TV episodes ever produced) would be good for its comprehension. The Flash I am Jack's complete lack of surprise 20:54, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    The forum though cites the website itself, not the print magazine. Ωphois 05:52, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I went ahead and added in the TV Guide thing. Thanks for letting me know about it. Ωphois 02:22, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Great article. Did some basic copy editing. One quick question/observation: Do we have to use the same picture of Ackles and Padelcki in the Reception section of this article? It's on the pilot page and on both of the actor's pages as well. Not a big deal, just wondering if there was something different we could put there (I know it's not on the Reception section of the pilot page).  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 03:32, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    A recurring theme throughout the reception section is praise for their acting. I feel that the article needs images, and this is the best free image I can find of them together. Do you have any other suggestions for possible replacements? Ωphois 05:27, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support—I copyedited the article and believe it is comprehensive and well-written. My comments on the article's talk page have been addressed, and I believe that it meets WP:FA?. Airplaneman ✈ 21:02, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support A detailed and generally well-written article that meets the standard set by Pilot (Supernatural). Just one comment: "housed the homeowners" sounds a bit repetitive, would "housed the residents" do or do you think it changes the meaning significantly? As Ealdgyth is leaving ref 16 and 24 for other reviewers to think about, Ophois' replies seem adequate to me, especially since the information in the article is derived from an interview with Kripe (the Eclipse ref) and quotes from the actors (ref 16), so as long as the websites can be trusted to regurgitate the quotes accurately there should be no problem. Nev1 (talk) 22:01, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I changed it to "residents". Ωphois 22:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Query, has there been an image review? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:10, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ophois, could you contact one of the regular image reviewers please and ask for their input? Karanacs (talk) 19:17, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Images: File:Jared and Jensen.jpg is demonstrably free (although is there another free image of these costars, from Comic-Con or something, so we have less redundancy with images through each episode article? Just a pet peeve.) File:Norest.JPG is non-free, but low resolution and greatly helpful in understanding commentary on the effect, so I think it's acceptable per WP:NFCC (I would suggest adding specific callouts on the image description page, however, as to what "final moments" are heavily discussed.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 00:16, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    This is the best one I could find. Ωphois 01:10, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Will supporting reviewers please comment on the outstanding reliable sources concerns. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:43, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Has the nominator pinged all supporting reviewers, requesting specific feedback on reliable sources (I see my request is now several weeks old)? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:46, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I messaged Bignole and Airplaneman when you originally asked. I'll send Aiken drum a message since his support came up just last week. Ωphois 14:53, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Which sources are concerning? Aiken (talk) 14:55, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Refs 16 and 24. They are listed at the top of this FAC page. Ωphois 15:02, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • They look fine for me. Aiken (talk) 15:06, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ophois does so above better than I possibly could. Aiken (talk) 15:13, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Sam insists that he will be saved, but Dean feigns reassurance as he hallucinates a demonic-looking Sam." Hallucinates? Otherwise, I have no issues with this article (support). Aiken (talk) 14:46, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • When he looks at Sam, Sam's face looks demonic. This is explained later in the plot, since Dean can now see demons' true forms, but I can see how it would be confusing. Do you have any suggestions of a better way to phrase it? Ωphois 16:49, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose on 2c: quality of citations (missing author information, incorrect publishers on websites). Comment regarding sources. Now satisfied with the discussion on Eclipse's reliability (Can't support though, I'm incapable of judging all the criteria as correct. 1c/2c look good to me though). Fifelfoo (talk) 04:26, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    "Supernatural Lets Katie Cassidy Go" has an author, I'm sure that Ileane Rudolph would appreciate being recognised for her work.
    Regarding 16 " # ^ a b "Supernatural at Comic Con: Jensen Ackles". SF Universe. July 28, 2008. Archived from the original on August 22, 2008. http://web.archive.org/web/20080822010304re_/www.sfuniverse.com/2008/07/28/supernatural-at-comic-con-jensen-ackles/. Retrieved August 22, 2010. " has an author, "Cynthia Boris" would probably like to be recognised for her work. Boris appears to be a specialist "is the author of three TV books including The Official Buffy the Vampire Slayer Pop Quiz Book. Her other works include entertainment features for magazines such as Inside Kung Fu, Star Trek Magazine, Cult Times, Young Rider, and she was a staff writer for the Official Buffy the Vampire Slayer Magazine in both the US and UK." The real publisher "b5media" claims that "WE ARE A LEADING GLOBAL LIFESTYLE PUBLISHER THAT FACILITATES AUTHENTIC DIALOG BETWEEN OUR EDITORS AND DEDICATED USERS." I doubt Boris has editorial control exercised over her contribution to the entertainment channel of b5, but she appears to be expert.
    Regarding 24 " # ^ "Supernatural Creator Eric Kripke Answers Fan Questions – Part I". Eclipse Magazine. April 23, 2008. Archived from the original on August 23, 2010. http://www.webcitation.org/5sCvmHspF. Retrieved September 27, 2009." has an author, I'm sure " Liana Bekakos" would like to be acknowledged for her work. Eclipse magazine may not be a reliable source, their editorial policy states that they publish 90% of submitted content. They don't appear to exercise factual editorial control. Liana Bekakos does not have a biographical note on Eclipse. Writers are unpaid freelancers (with the exception of video bloggers, who receive a percentage of revenue stream from advertising). Please demonstrate Bekakos is an expert for this to be a reliable source.
    Style inconsistencies, TVGuide is an online magazine, no italics. Eclipse is an online magazine, italics.
    Supernatural ratings has a responsible editor who published ("Robert Seidman") who deserves attribution whether he deserves it or not for blankly compiling and republishing Nielsen ratings.
    Please check all your sources for correct authors, correct publishers (a publisher is the body of people responsible for providing the media (ie: printing) and for exercising editorial and commercial control (ie: uttering) a work. Feel free to ping my talk page so I can recind the oppose. Fifelfoo (talk) 23:39, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think I have corrected all inefficiencies. Ωphois 04:03, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • However, the first mentioned TV Guide in Reception is in italics because it is the actual magazine, while the later mentions are not because they are the website. Ωphois 04:08, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


  • Comment Entire plot section has no refs. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:50, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The ref is the episode itself, which is the norm for television articles. Ωphois 03:55, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question. Is there something special about this episode that would make it a good FA? I'm thinking along the lines of the last episode of the Sopranos, which people had been speculating about for ages, and which was endlessly dissected. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 05:27, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Not that I can think of. It didn't really have any impacts in popular culture. The impact it would have on the show itself is mentioned in the writing section. The difference between this episode and the Sopranos finale is that this plotline continues into the next season, whereas the Sopranos just ended. I think any speculation about how Dean would escape Hell would be better suited for the articles on season 4 or "Lazarus Rising", where he is resurrected. Ωphois 14:46, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. In that case I'm afraid I have to oppose. Nothing is jumping out at me that would make this article an FA. The writing is ordinary because the subject matter is; that's not a reflection on your writing, because it would be hard for anyone to write about this well. In addition to that, though, it could use a copy edit to smooth out things like "let go due to budgetary reasons". There's nothing of substance about the topic, nothing quirky, no interesting angle, no analysis. The reception section is just a list of quotes, and there's over-quoting throughout the article, e.g. "Although Kripke found it difficult to pen many of the episode's scenes, the terrorizing sequences 'just came right out' because they were 'just so fun.'" (And why "pen" and not "write"?) There's no overview regarding how this episode fits into the series, how the series fits into whatever the genre is (I would have developed the Twilight Zone comparison more), why this episode matters more than any other, or why we should care about any of it. I'm sorry I can't be more positive about it, Ophois. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 19:57, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I used "pen" to avoid repetitions of the word "write". Anyways, I wholeheartedly disagree. The plot section, IMO, connects the episode to the main storyline (I also added in to the lead that they hunt supernatural creatures). The reception section is a bunch of quotes because that is what the reception section, especially for a TV episode, is supposed to be. I also don't see how you can say there is nothing of substance, seeing as how the writers completely changed the direction of the episode due to the writers' strike, as well as the information regarding the design of Hell. FA criteria does require an article's topic to be amazing, or for an episode to have something that people are "speculating about for ages". Ωphois 20:45, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I went through and trimmed down or reworded some of the quotes. I feel a lot of them, however, need to remain as quotes because it would be speculation to assume what they fully meant. Other quotes I feel are best phrased how they said it. Regarding the Twilight Zone stuff, it would be original research to make any further connections without reliable sources. Ωphois 06:05, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have added a Background section. Ωphois 00:57, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments that are very close to an oppose. I read one sentence and then stopped. ""No Rest for the Wicked" is the sixteenth episode of the paranormal drama Supernatural's third season on The CW, and is the show's sixtieth episode overall." If this is the caliber of the writing, I can see why SlimVirgin opposed it. Is it Supernatural's third season airing on the CW, or third season, full stop? Are the links to paranormal and drama truly necessary, or do they just turn the lede into a sea of blue? Is that sentence tight and crisp... no, the lede sentence is as far as many readers get, and this one doesn't draw them in at all. Plunging forth, because anyone can have a bad sentence, "brothers who travel the country hunting supernatural creatures" What country are we discussing here? "The neighborhood scenes were shot in a cul-de-sac of 16 million-dollar homes," There were 16 homes worth one million CAD, or there was a house worth 16 million CAD? This isn't PR, so I won't keep going... essentially, you need a copy-editor with a good deal of experience in producing featured-quality prose. Now, for my references nit-pick, why does the general ref have a First Last name order, and everything else Last, First? And I'm not at all convinced on ref 15's reliability (EveryJoe by Cynthia) Courcelles 11:39, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • The lead is based on previous FAC's of similar articles, but I have now adjusted the wording. I have also corrected the "country" issue. As for the cul-de-sac sentence, the hyphen between "million" and "dollar" signifies that there are 16 homes worth a million each. But I can remove the 16 if you want, since a specific number isn't important. I have also fixed the general ref. Ωphois 15:21, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      I also replaced ref 15. Ωphois 15:55, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      I have asked someone to copyedit it. Ωphois 00:04, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 12:30, 27 September 2010 [17].

Jocko Thompson edit

Nominator(s): — KV5 • Talk • 18:09, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I believe that it meets the criteria. In the period of time since this passed its good article nomination, I have done additional research on this player and have not found any further information beyond what's currently in the article. Thus, I believe it to be complete, fully referenced, and of featured quality. This is my second go-round through the FA process (my first try was a dismal failure), and I'm hoping that this one turns out well; if passed, it would obviously be my first successful FAC. I'll try to address all comments as expediently as possible. Thanks in advance to all reviewers. — KV5 • Talk • 18:09, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. No problems with dablinks. ; the external link to http://gonu.com/baseball/archives/results.htm produces "We're sorry, the page you are looking for cannot be found." PL290 (talk) 19:15, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Done; they updated the format of their website so only the URL needed to be changed. — KV5 • Talk • 19:20, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - My Google search of Phil Nordyke's More Than Courage, a history of the 504th, shows that Thompson is mentioned about a dozen times. My copy is in storage, but I seem to remember he's mentioned in some detail. Have you looked at this source? If not, I don't think this is comprehensive as of yet. Skinny87 (talk) 19:39, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • I haven't; in multiple searches for sources, I didn't even turn up that such a source existed. I guess a trip to the library is in order. — KV5 • Talk • 19:42, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • And my county library system does not have this book. Without having the funds available to purchase it, I guess this is bound to fail unless someone with the source can help out. — KV5 • Talk • 19:51, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Let me see what I can do about this, although it could take up to a week to get a hold of Nordyke. Ironically, I was only lookig at it yesterday. For the moment, Amazon.co.uk allows you to look inside the book. You can use the index to find where he's mentioned and scroll through the book. Skinny87 (talk) 19:56, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Great, fantastic. I'll check that out sometime in the next day or two. — KV5 • Talk • 20:03, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • I'll also mlook at my other books, but I'd suggest finding some more books on the 504th and the US airborne in general; I don't think his military career is sufficiently covered as of yet. Skinny87 (talk) 20:22, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
            • I'll see what I can do. As this article is both WP:MLB and WP:MILHIST, it's a little bit complicated. Being primarily a baseball editor who just happens to have a passing interest in military history, I don't really have those resources readily available to me. But, like I said, I'll have a go at what I can find and see if I can expand it. I honestly thought I had found all of the information that there was to find. — KV5 • Talk • 11:56, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(od) Hey, no problem - I'd have had the exact same problem in reverse if I'd tried to get this to FA. I'll see what I can dig up in the next week or so, no worries. Skinny87 (talk) 13:11, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments -
  • What makes http://www.baseballinwartime.com/player_biographies/thompson_jocko.htm a reliable source?
    • Baseball in Wartime was asked about at WP:RSN before using it as a source prior to the GA nom. It was determined to be reliable, and the author, Gary Bedingfield, is notable specifically for writing about this field (baseball during WWII). — KV5 • Talk • 14:47, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Ah, but FA requires 'high quality' sources, does this meet that standard? Ealdgyth - Talk 14:55, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • I believe that it does, considering the field of expertise of the author. I'm not sure what assurance you're looking for that it's a high-quality source. — KV5 • Talk • 15:23, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • This book looks to have some stuff of use.
  • And he's at least mentioned in this.
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:25, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Image review: Military award images are verifiably in the public domain. The bridge photo is appropriately licensed. Jocko is dead and conceivably there can be no free replacement available unless someone releases their shot into the public domain. Possibilities include John Comier's photos and bubble gum cards[18][19] if Bowman Gum had failed to renew the copyright registrations. Regardless, the fair use (to identify a dead subject and who is unlikely to have a public domain photo) is likely appropriate. Jappalang (talk) 22:49, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

      • Baseball cards are copyrighted by their company, especially those early bowman cards, so they can't be fair use. Secret account 23:08, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: File:Jocko Thompson.jpg doesn't have a license (!!!) (WP:IUP/NFCC#6/NFCC#B) Эlcobbola talk 15:06, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • This article needs substantial work, and it's unclear to me that it meets GA criteria. MOS cleanup and a thorough survey of the relevant literature is needed. I will recuse and review this FAC if no one else gets to it, but suggest a peer review is a better next step, and the nomination should be withdrawn. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:35, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose sorry to oppose but I agree with SandyGeorgia, too soon after GA nomination. Here's some comments why.
  • After attending Northeastern University, Thompson appeared as a situational pitcher and spot starter during the 1948, 1949, and 1950 seasons with the Phillies, and went 4–8 in his only season as a regular member of the team's starting rotation. Run-on, and link doesn't explain what a situational pitcher does, unclear to a non baseball reader.
  • "fast ball specialist" - it means he only pitches fastballs?
  • one of six Major League Baseball players to attend the school. Trivia
  • During his tenure (1938–1940), the Huskies won 31 games and lost 14, accumulating a .689 winning percentage. - Doesn't explain nothing about Thompson's contributions to the team, what was his factor.
  • Thompson entered the Army of the United States in 1941 Why? Was he drafted?
  • "showed no desire to fight ... [and] ran away". Does the book explains why?
  • Why he was giving a field commission?
  • Why didn't the Red Sox didn't restrain Thompson's rights.
  • The information about Konstanty is irrelavent, you have to explain why the Phillies took an interest in Thompson instead of Konstanty, especially that is record is poor.
  • Are his uniform number irrelavent, I don't see any other baseball FA that describes their baseball uniform number, though the Major League career section is rather good for a player with little playing time.
  • I'm surpriced theres no sourcing on the Sporting News anywhere in the article, they usually give a gold mine of information of players like Thompson.
    • I don't see it as comprensive enough, you could turn a backup article into an FA (that's what I did with Ben Paschal, but the article seems lacking in places for me. That's why I have to oppose. Secret account 23:08, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
All right, go ahead and withdraw the nomination. As always, my work doesn't seem to be FA caliber. — KV5 • Talk • 12:23, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 12:33, 26 September 2010 [20].

Menominee Tribe v. United States edit

Nominator(s): GregJackP (talk)

I am nominating this article for featured article, as I believe that it meets the criteria. It is currently a good article, is stable, and is written in accordance with WP:MOSLAW and WP:SCOTUS criteria, especially in regards to the Bluebook reference style (which is slightly different from other reference styles). The case is a leading case in Native American (Indian) law as regards treaty rights. GregJackP Boomer! 18:02, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 18:22, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments -
  • None of your "Notes" are sourced, some of them are opinion (commonly) and need some sort of sourcing.
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:58, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question - I initially tried to incorporate references within the footnotes, but I couldn't get it to work - is there a way to do it that I'm not aware of? I will be happy to add those. GregJackP Boomer! 14:12, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rather than describing the two Treaties that came to be known as The Treaty of Washington in a footnote, would it not be better to create the Treaty of Washington article, and sort all of that out over there, with sources and links to each individual treaty? Also, please review WP:PUNC for logical punctuation. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done - Treaty of Washington, with Menominee (1831) article, but it will take a day or so. GregJackP Boomer! 00:25, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't understand what you mean on the logical punctuation comment. Please excuse me on this, I'm quite willing to fix it, but this is the first article I've brought to FAC, so I'm sure that I will have missed some points here and there. GregJackP Boomer! 14:12, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:PUNC deals with whether the punctuation is part of the original quote and should be included inside or outside of the quotation marks ... it can be tricky, and often requires access to the sources ... if you still don't understand it after reading that page, don't sweat it, as it is not something that will hold up a FAC, but something you should attempt to understand. By the way CJLippert (talk · contribs) is an editor you might want to ping for review of this article (just keep the request neutral to avoid WP:CANVASS). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:32, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments -
I just read through the articles and found several problems (some are problems with the article, others are link (or lack there of)). So, here are my beefs with the current article or the current links
  1. The 1831 treaty preserved usufruct, not granted because the right was not taken away and then given back.
  2. The tribe was located in both Michigan and Wisconsin since time immemorial, though the current tribe is found only in Wisconsin. Some of the Menomini bands of the past were absorbed by the neighbouring Ojibwe while other bands were amalgamated into a single band that forms the current Menomini tribe.
  3. Since there were three different Treaties of Washington plus a Supplement, all in 1831, and through Treaty of Washington (1831) article was created, but focusing only on the Menomini Treaty and its Supplement, it and other treaties, if there were multiple ones signed in the same year by a tribe or tribes, placing a clarifier by citing the US Statutes at Large would greatly help. In the case of the Menomini Treaty and its Supplement, the citations would be 7 Stat. 342 and 7 Stat. 346, respectively. Similarly, as some of the links to the treaties are currently still a "red link", the in-line US Statutes at Large link would help the reader go directly to the source.N.B.: there is the template {{USStat|V|P}} that would make this a breeze.
  4. With the Treaty of Washington (1831) article, I wonder if it should be renamed as Treaty of Washington, with the Menominee (1831)? Or else, if one is really careful, the non-Menomini treaties could be inserted and appropriate section breaks would be needed. In that treaty article, showing Royce Areas 158~162 in eastern Wisconsin would be helpful.
  5. Minnesota is pretty big. Clarifying the location of Royce Area 269/321 would help. BTW, there is an appropriate image already available currently found in the Treaty of Fond du Lac, under the 1847 Treaty of Fond du Lac, showing the location of the Royce Area 269 that the Pillager Chippewa ceded to the US for the purposes of establishing a Menomini Indian Reservation. There isn't an image currently available on Wikipedia showing the same area as Royce Area 321 as Menomini land cession.
  6. On Dakota/Ojibwe with the notes: the specific parties involved were the Santee (Dakota Sioux) and the Pillagers (Ojibwe/Chippewa). The term "Dakota" can be used instead of "Sioux" but the converse does not hold, just as "Santee" can be used for "Dakota" but the converse does not hold. The reason is that there are "two" very different "Dakota" (Santee-Sisseton and Yankton-Yanktonai)(and if you want to really split hairs, the "two" becomes six), and together with the Lakota, they collectively form "Sioux". In addition, through "Ojibwe" and "Chippewa" are interchangeable terms, both the Ho-chunks and the Menomini didn't have problems with the Mississippi Chippewa but with the Pillager Chippewa. If you're going to bother putting in notes, the notes should be concise and serve to clarify this without rambling (like the way I am at the moment).
  7. The transition from the mid-19th Century to the mid-20th Century is a bit too abrupt. Not sure how to bridge it, especially when the pertinent facts-at-hand occur in these two periods as well.
  8. Link to the Indian termination policy, may be valuable as there is a section in that article already regarding the Menomini. This should also clarify it was the mid- to late-1940s, and not just the 1940s. In addition, House concurrent resolution 108 of 1953 should be mentioned regarding the termination policy.
As for the last half of the article covering the Opinion of the Court and Subsequent developments, I don't see any problems there. CJLippert (talk) 21:42, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, and addressing your points:
  1. Done - changed to "retained" hunting and fishing rights.
  2. Done - reworked. I knew better, part of my family went with the Menominee, the other part are with the Grand Traverse Band.
  3. Comment/Question - The USStat template is used in the references, are you recommending that I add an in-line one also? I'm more than willing to do so, but am curious if that wouldn't be redundant.
  4. Done - renamed to Treaty of Washington, with Menominee (1831).
  5. Done - added image.
  6. Question - I am familiar with the Sioux, their divisions and bands (not so much for the Ojibwe), but wasn't sure how much detail I should go into. I didn't feel that it was really that relevant to the article, but am willing to add more.
  7. Comment - I don't know if the intervening period is that relevant to the case - the treaties were included due to the treaty interpretation present in the case. I'm open to adding it though.
  8. Comment - not clear on what you are asking/saying. It is already wikilinked at the start of the Tribal termination section.
Again, thanks. GregJackP Boomer! 03:55, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Responses-
3. The USStat ref, in line, only if 1) article doesn't exist yet, or 2) if multiple treaties go by the same name, then to clarify which one. I don't know if we really need an inline link to each and every one of them, but that legal clarifier should be included inline first time the treaty is mentioned.
6. Maybe instead of "Santee and Ojibwe", you should say "Sioux and the Anishinaabe" (very general, and probably too general to be meaningful), "Dakota and Ojibwe" (general and meaningful) or "Santee and Pillagers" (specific); basically, to match parties involved in the conflict at the same organisational level.
7. Nevermind. Looking at the article, I see that I missed the transitional phrase "From that date forward for 100 years, ...."
8. I think the problem I have is just with Paragraph 1 Sentence 1 of the "Tribal Termination" section, as it wasn't in the mid- to late-1940s Menomini were identified for termination, but rather during that time they were part of the survey by the BIA to determine the condition of the tribe as so many weren't fairing well at all. It was only from 1950 onward that Menomini were identified when the poorest and the richest tribes were identified for termination because it was thought the richest (like the Menomini) could survive without being encumbered by the gross mismanagement of the BIA, while the poorest were identified for termination as it was thought their lives would drastically improve if managed by the states instead of by the BIA. Both assumptions proved disastrously wrong. Rewording the first sentence of that section to reflect this would be helpful. What would be even more helpful would be if the Indian termination policy article itself were edited to clearly iterate this point. Oh, in that termination section, have you considered using [[Indian_termination_policy#Menominee_Termination_Act|Menominee Indian Termination Act]] to remove that red link since there is a small blurb already in existence?
Thank you for such a wonderful article and hard work! CJLippert (talk) 14:52, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
3. Done - inline cites added. 16:58, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
6. Done - changed to Dakota/Ojibwe, edited fn to match, made sure ref was still valid. 16:58, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
7. Moot.
8. Done
8a. Done - reworked sentence. 17:06, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
8b. Done - Wikilink replaced. GregJackP Boomer! 16:48, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just one more thing:
9. "Crow Wing area" currently links to Crow Wing County, Minnesota. This link would be incorrect as the "Crow Wing area" refers to the Crow Wing River basin, so my first inclination was to recommend changing that to Crow Wing River, but as that really don't focus on the area of interest, maybe having a link instead go to the Long Prairie River—as this tributary of the Crow Wing River served as the dividing line between Royce Areas 268/361 of the Ho-chunks and 269/321 of the Menomini—would be more appropriate. The Royce Area 268/321 is bounded by the Leaf and Long Prairie Rivers on the north and southeast (both tributaries of the Crow Wing River), and by the Prairie du Chien Line on the west. Royce Area 268/321 covers significant portions of Wadena, Otter Tail, Douglas and Todd counties and very small portions of Cass and Morrison Counties... all west and south of Crow Wing County.
CJLippert (talk) 17:46, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
9. Done - linked to Long Prairie River. GregJackP Boomer! 18:41, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Thanks. That takes care of all the issues I've seen. So, no-caveat Support. CJLippert (talk) 23:51, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image review All images are suitably documented; all are PD. Magic♪piano 02:38, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support, with suggestions:

  • The lead may not be a little opaque to those unfamiliar with the interplay between tribal and national sovereignity. It should be run by someone who does not have that familiarity.
Fixed. Thank you. Kablammo (talk) 18:28, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please provide support for this sentence: "The case has been cited in over 100 law review articles as of June 2010."

Kablammo (talk) 13:34, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Done Question - I tried to write the lede from a perspective of the layperson, but I'm open to suggestions. Where can we get someone to look at that aspect? GregJackP Boomer! 01:03, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done - referenced to LexisNexis list of law review articles citing case. Note that this is behind a paywall. GregJackP Boomer! 00:30, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Suggestions I have a non-US background which gives me familiarity with iwi vs the Crown situations, so I'll give the lead review a go.
  • Is it normal to have the first sentence of case articles be a statement of the holding? It immediately made it very hard to follow. Would "...was a case in which the Supreme Court of the United States ruled on the tribal hunting and fishing rights under treaty of the Menominee Indian Tribe" be sufficient? The rest of the lead lays out the situation much more clearly.
  • "terminated the tribe's federal recognition" - I'd appreciate clarification here that the primary effect is (I think) that it terminated federal funding to the tribe.
  • "Members of the tribe were charged with" - could use a mention of when this happened; ie. the subsequent year, and also that they were hunting/fishing on the land on which they had been resident, by treaty, before the legislation change, for 100+ years.
  • Also note from body of article: "lived in the states of Wisconsin and Michigan since time immemorial." Beautiful phrasing, but wouldn't archaeology place it at <20k years?
  • "On termination, the Menominee went from being one of the wealthiest tribes to one of the poorest." I would have appreciated mention of why the Federal process thought that termination was a good idea at all if this was the immediate outcome.
Iridia (talk) 06:05, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Although these were suggestions and not an oppose, I believe all of Iridia's suggestions have been addressed. Iridia was notified and asked to reconsider here and has not commented further on the FAC nomination, although Iridia has been on-Wiki and her talk page subsequent to the notice (see here). GregJackP Boomer! 13:39, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just a friendly note on expectations: quickly checking one's talk page on a weekend is a lot less onerous than doing a detailed read-through for checking against FAC standards. :) Iridia (talk) 23:53, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Of course. I did not mean that you should have immediately returned here, and I'm sorry if I left that impression. SG told me that reviewers are often busy, and can't return right away - I was just trying to convey that I believed you would have seen the message and would return when you could. I'll try to use better phrasing in the future. GregJackP Boomer! 02:32, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done I'll get on these in the morning. Thanks, GregJackP Boomer! 07:00, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done and comment. First sentence - yes, it is normal, and is generated by the SCOTUS template. No problem in changing it though. GregJackP Boomer! 19:46, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • My personal preference would be to change it for improved readability, since the holding is right there in the infobox. Perhaps compare to existing law FAs. Iridia (talk) 23:53, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done "terminated the tribe's federal recognition" - primarily, it ended their tribal sovereignty. GregJackP Boomer! 19:58, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • This now has more material than is in the text body - the two must be kept consistent. Also, how can "police and fire protection" be ended - if the tribe is "assimilated", wouldn't they receive normal county &etc. coverage? Iridia (talk) 23:53, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The reservation was formed into a brand new county - since the tribe were the only residents, they had to pay for police and fire protection themselves, without any industrial tax base to support it. The same applied to all other services. GregJackP Boomer! 12:09, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dear goodness. *is aghast* This is the kind of thing that is completely unfamiliar and has to be mentioned for those of us who are more used to, say, one police force that covers the entire country. I just learned there are twenty thousand such U.S. agencies... Iridia (talk) 13:27, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done "Members of the tribe were charged with" GregJackP Boomer! 20:06, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done Also note from body of article: "lived in the states of Wisconsin and Michigan since time immemorial." Beautiful phrasing, but wouldn't archaeology place it at <20k years? GregJackP Boomer! 21:01, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done "On termination, the Menominee went from being one of the wealthiest tribes to one of the poorest." Explained, and added wikilink to assimilation policy. GregJackP Boomer! 22:29, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • That helps. Still would help to make mention of why the tribe had no income other than Federal funding. Iridia (talk) 23:53, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I also do agree with Tony that the body prose needs further smoothing out: WP:MOSLAW says "Aim to provide an overview to an international lay audience", and between that and 1a, it just needs polishing. The content is clearly adequate. But as I only gave a lead review, I will limit my involvement to resolving my previous comments. Iridia (talk) 23:53, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll work on those tomorrow. Thanks for reviewing this, I really appreciate it. GregJackP Boomer! 03:10, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Too many problems in the prose.

  • "The Menominee Indian Tribe had entered into a series of treaties with the United States that did not specifically state that they had hunting and fishing rights." Could we avoid two "thats" in the same sentence?
  • Given the opening sentence, do we need the country name again? "United States Supreme Court".
  • "since time immemorial"—no.
  • Why is "United States" linked?
  • Wrong space before period.
  • "treaty, the Treaty"
  • "3 million" instead of zillions of zeros? And "about" would be smoother than "approximately"—just a suggestion.
  • So many parentheses, so do we really need two conversions? Why not decide on sq. mi or acres, not both!
  • "ceded to the United States"—it's probably legalese, but normal people will wonder whether this means "the federal government" (or perhaps even "Congress" alone). This occurs a number of times. It's vague unless you are an expert.
  • present-day
  • "was not suitable for the tribe, primarily due to its location between two warring tribes"—unsuitable; and what does "its" refer to? Tony (talk) 15:31, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I believe all of Tony1's objections have been addressed save one, as noted below. The one that is not addressed is due to a convert template in order to show both U.S. and metric measurements per WP:MOS. Tony1 was notified that the objections have been addressed and asked to reconsider here and has not commented further on the FAC nomination, although he has been on-Wiki and his talk page subsequent to the notice (see here). GregJackP Boomer! 13:23, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done - now reads "The Menominee Indian Tribe had entered into a series of treaties with the United States that which did not specifically state that they had hunting and fishing rights." GregJackP Boomer! 22:38, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done Given the opening sentence, do we need the country name again? "United States Supreme Court". I changed it to Supreme Court in the lede, and left U.S. Supreme Court in the Federal Court of Claims section (to differentiate it from the Wisconsin Supreme Court in the same section. GregJackP Boomer! 22:46, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done "since time immemorial"—no. GregJackP Boomer! 22:15, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done Why is "United States" linked? unlinked. GregJackP Boomer! 22:49, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done Wrong space before period. fixed. GregJackP Boomer! 22:49, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done "treaty, the Treaty" Changed it to uppercase in all treaty names (i.e., Treaty of Wolf River or Wolf River Treaty) and lower case everywhere else. GregJackP Boomer! 00:09, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not done and done "3 million" instead of zillions of zeros? And "about" would be smoother than "approximately"—just a suggestion. The 3,000,000 is from the convert template, so I can't change it to 3 million, but I changed approx. to about. GregJackP Boomer! 23:26, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done So many parentheses, so do we really need two conversions? Why not decide on sq. mi or acres, not both! Changed to acres (primary) and km2 (secondary). I have to keep the conversions per MOS (see WP:UNIT). GregJackP Boomer! 23:26, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done "ceded to the United States"—it's probably legalese, but normal people will wonder whether this means "the federal government" (or perhaps even "Congress" alone). Changed all to the "federal government." GregJackP Boomer! 00:00, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: Not until 1871 would Indian Tribes officially become Domestic Dependencies, so the use of "the federal government" would not be appropriate and the "the United States" would be. Any land cessions after 1871, "the federal government" wording would be appropriate as it is assumed we are speaking of the federal government of the United States. Minor point, and it is legalese. CJLippert (talk) 14:57, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done present-day GregJackP Boomer! 00:00, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done "was not suitable for the tribe, primarily due to its location between two warring tribes"—unsuitable; and what does "its" refer to? expanded. GregJackP Boomer! 00:09, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Image concern: I think the licensing/copyrights for the images are pretty fine, except for perhaps File:US Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart - 1976 official portrait.jpg. Robert Stanley Oakes was never a government employee; he was employed at National Geographic since 1960.[21] He may have been contracted to be an official photographer for government officials but under US law, copyright transfer to an employer (for work for hire) requires documentation. Otherwise, the copyright remains with the photographer. What I fear here from reading the LoC's page is that Oakes might have given permission/rights to the Supreme Court for unlimited reproduction, but might not have surrendered his copyright on derivatives (another essential component of Wikipedia's "free" policy). Could the LoC or the Supreme Court be contacted to clarify this? Even if clarified, the copyright tag on the image would likely need to be corrected (since Oakes was not a government employee). Jappalang (talk) 02:15, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Per the LOC "No known restrictions on publication. Verified with the Supreme Court, 2004." located at [22]. GregJackP Boomer! 12:05, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, it says "on publication", not "on publication and derivative uses" or "for all uses"; please read my concern again. Jappalang (talk) 01:57, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see that it is not a freely available image. I'm sorry, but I disagree with your interpretation. GregJackP Boomer! 05:51, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Spot check on prose: just one section, "Federal Court of Claims". I can't alter my oppose on this basis.
  1. Not so keen on "then" at the opening of a section. The back-reference has to climb over quite a boundary. And the very next para starts with "then" as well. And the third para. Just bin the word. Can you audit out "then" in sequential narrative where possible?
  2. "The court first made clear that the Menominee Termination Act did not actually abolish the tribe or its membership, it merely ended Federal supervision of the tribe." Would this be better? "The court first clarified that the Menominee Termination Act did not abolish the tribe or its membership, but merely ended Federal supervision of the tribe."
  3. "albeit not one under" ... "albeit" is a bit old-fashioned legalistic. I've been criticised for using it. "although not under"? Is "federal" not with a lower-case f? MoS says when in doubt, use lower case.
  4. Dash, not comma? "Court—that the"
  5. Surely "the Court had noted" with C, since it's titular, not generic.
  6. Mood tension: "If it had, the tribe had a valid claim for compensation but if not, then there would be no compensation." Surely, "If it had, the tribe would have had a valid claim for compensation; but if not, then there would be no compensation." Can you think carefully about the use of semicolons and colons; these boundaries are important in presenting involved, technical information.
  7. Noted ... noted ... note.
  8. "that stated that". (solved by accounting for the fact that the first refers to people, not things.).
  9. Try to minimise "that" where possible: "the court took note that Congress also amended Public Law 280 to state that in Wisconsin, Indian hunting and fishing rights were protected." -> "the court observed that Congress had amended Public Law 280 so that Indian hunting and fishing rights were protected in Wisconsin."
  10. Do readers have to divert to the link to learn what "certiorari" means? Perhaps a phrase in parentheses after the item to gloss it (or is that clunky?).

You know, we'd love to get WP's legal articles on a better footing. Can you establish collaborations with copy-editors who are interested in / have worked on this area? I suggest withdrawal and the building of a team to transform legal articles, which in the short-term might re-nominate this one. I am picking up that a little library of words/expressions/constructions is required in this genre to avoid close repetitions of the clunky "note that", "stated that". You might consider starting a little copy-edit resource with advice specific to writing about this subject (buzz me if you prepare a draft); I see the film people have a very good tutorial page, although I'm not suggesting you go that far quite yet. Tony (talk) 13:45, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Done
  1. Done - Not so keen on "then" at the opening of a section. The back-reference has to climb over quite a boundary. And the very next para starts with "then" as well. And the third para. Just bin the word. Can you audit out "then" in sequential narrative where possible? GregJackP Boomer! 11:37, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Done - "The court first made clear that the Menominee Termination Act did not actually abolish the tribe or its membership, it merely ended Federal supervision of the tribe." Would this be better? "The court first clarified that the Menominee Termination Act did not abolish the tribe or its membership, but merely ended Federal supervision of the tribe." GregJackP Boomer! 14:02, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Done - "albeit not one under" ... "albeit" is a bit old-fashioned legalistic. I've been criticised for using it. "although not under"? Is "federal" not with a lower-case f? MoS says when in doubt, use lower case. Changed to "although" and l/c. GregJackP Boomer! 14:02, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Done - Dash, not comma? "Court—that the" GregJackP Boomer! 14:02, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Done - Surely "the Court had noted" with C, since it's titular, not generic. I actually agree, on another article, I was told to change it during a GAN. Fixed. GregJackP Boomer! 14:02, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Done - Mood tension: "If it had, the tribe had a valid claim for compensation but if not, then there would be no compensation." Surely, "If it had, the tribe would have had a valid claim for compensation; but if not, then there would be no compensation." Can you think carefully about the use of semicolons and colons; these boundaries are important in presenting involved, technical information. GregJackP Boomer! 11:39, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Done - Noted ... noted ... note. GregJackP Boomer! 11:45, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Done - "that stated that". (solved by accounting for the fact that the first refers to people, not things.). Now "who stated that" GregJackP Boomer! 11:45, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Done - Try to minimise "that" where possible: "the court took note that Congress also amended Public Law 280 to state that in Wisconsin, Indian hunting and fishing rights were protected." -> "the court observed that Congress had amended Public Law 280 so that Indian hunting and fishing rights were protected in Wisconsin."
  10. Done - Do readers have to divert to the link to learn what "certiorari" means? Perhaps a phrase in parentheses after the item to gloss it (or is that clunky?). Not sure - I added a short explanation, what do you think? GregJackP Boomer! 11:42, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note - I have asked an editor/attorney I know to look at the prose, to make sure that both the verbiage and the legal meaning are both addressed properly. He will not be making any recommendation as to the FA status to avoid any impropriety. GregJackP Boomer! 17:46, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. The court first clarified that the Menominee Termination Act did abolish the tribe or its membership, but merely ended Federal supervision of the tribe. That does not seem to make sense, should it be did not abolish? SpinningSpark 18:18, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Have you pinged Tony1 for a revisit? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:39, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, regretfully - you've put in some good work during this FAC, but there are still too many problems for me to accept this as FA-status. I would suggest finding a copy-editor or two to give this a good work-through before renominating; the below should not be considered a complete list of issues. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:04, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Why is "Menominee Indian Tribe" pipelinked in lead when only Menominee in the same phrase is linked in article text?
  • "ending the tribes right to" - grammar
  • "In 1831 the tribe entered into another treaty, the Treaty of Washington (7 Stat. 342 (1831) and 7 Stat. 405 (1832))...These two treaties" - so is it one treaty or two?
  • "These two treaties reserved hunting and fishing rights for the tribe on the ceded land until the President surveyed and sold the land" - which president? If unspecified, suggest lower-case
  • "this area has been the home of the tribe, and they were free from state interference" - use a consistent tense
  • Be consistent in including or not include the square-mile conversion for acreage
  • "From that date forward for 100 years" - phrasing is somewhat awkward
  • "the tribe enjoyed complete freedom..with the complete acquiescence of Wisconsin" - repetitive
  • "becoming hard-working, tax-paying productive citizens" - careful: this suggests that they were not "hard-working" or "productive", which is a biased opinion. Even if the federal government explicitly stated this, I would recommend at least removing "hard-working"
  • "the tribe was paying its own way due to its timber operations" - what about its timber operations? This sentence doesn't really make sense as written; it is partially explained by the reference, but should still be rephrased or clarified
  • "Menominee Termination Act" or "the Menominee Termination Act"?
  • Why would they be paying BIA salaries - if they're no longer federally recognized, why are they still involved with the BIA? Please clarify
  • "it's utility company" - it is utility company?
  • "The Menominee Enterprises, Inc." - why "The"?
  • "Federal supervision" - why is "Federal" capitalized here, when it wasn't in "federal recognition"?
  • Is Menominee plural or singular? In other words, which of "Menominee was" and "Menominee were" is correct (you use both)?
  • "In an interesting twist" - editorializing
  • Since you explain certiorari parenthetically, you might do the same for amicus curiae
  • Should mention in article text that Marshall did not participate
  • "Indian Country" - in the source, "country" is not capitalized
  • In the "Dissent" section, I assume that ref 1 is being used to cite everything except what is specifically referenced to ref 30? If so, given that ref 30 appears mid-section, ref 1 should be repeated immediately prior to the information cited by ref 30 to make it clear which information is cited to which ref
  • "has even been discussed internationally (such as Australia)" - grammar
  • "even when the treaty does not specifically speak" - which treaty? Amend to "the treaties", "such treaties", "the applicable treaty" or similar
  • "The Mahican (or Mohican) tribe is the tribe that James Fenimore Cooper used as the basis for the novel The Last of the Mohicans." - relevance?
  • "Unlike most of the world, the United States uses a multitude of local agencies, with approximately 20,000 police forces in the country" - since this note seems to deal only with police, don't put it right after "fire protection"
  • In "Menominee Enterprises[,] Inc.", should there or should there not be a comma?
  • "as trustee for the trust established by the termination act" - what trust? This is the first mention of a trust. Also, why is "termination act" not capitalized here when it is elsewhere in the article?
  • Ref 2: no need to repeat "The Menominee Indian Tribe of Wisconsin"
  • Ref 3: give Brose's first name or initials, remove doubled period, specify that Sturtevant is the editor
  • Be consistent with spacing in references
  • Use a consistent format for sources with multiple authors
  • Be consistent in formatting for ISBNs, and in putting page #s before or after ISBNs
  • Check formatting for ref 40 - is this a journal article? If so, should have page numbers
  • Native American tribes in Wisconsin is a subcat of Indigenous peoples of North America
  • Nikkimaria (talk) 02:04, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I like this article but dont think it is quite FA ready. Will post more extensive comments when I have a chance. Savidan 06:38, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. I have a particular issue that concerns how articles are written in the field of law, particularly case law. It is one which I have raised in some previous contexts, and I reproduce here (with original datestamp) the point with which I kicked off discussion on one of those previous occasions:

  • Citing case law in articles about laws

"There is a problem across a large number of WP pages that relate to legal topics, in particular which involve case law.

  • At the heart of the problem is this: judgments of cases are themselves primary sources. As such, they should not in general be relied upon as sources in WP entries. To quote from the verifiability policy:

    Primary sources are sources very close to an event. For example, an account of a traffic accident written by a witness is a primary source of information about the accident. Other examples include archeological artifacts; photographs; historical documents such as diaries, census results, video or transcripts of surveillance, public hearings, trials, or interviews;...(emphasis added)

  • WP does not say these sources cannot be used at all. The policy recommends:

    Primary sources that have been reliably published (for example, by a university press or mainstream newspaper) may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. Without a secondary source, a primary source may be used only to make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is verifiable by a reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge.

  • The appropriate way in which to use case law would be:
(a) to cite cases, including Wikilinks if available, in order to inform the reader of the cases, dates etc at which certain legal events took place;
(b) to cite or quote judgments to the extent that the article is describing what the judges said; BUT
(c) to cite other sources, that are not the judgments themselves, in describing the effects those judgments have.
Here is an example that used to be in Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution (the article has changed somewhat since then). The article stated:

...the Supreme Court, since Baker v. Carr (1962) and Reynolds v. Sims (1964), has also interpreted the Equal Protection Clause as requiring the states to apportion their congressional districts and state legislative seats on a "one-person, one-vote" basis.

This sentence reports how two U.S. Supreme Court decisions have interpreted a clause of a constitutional amendment. This statement cannot rely on the citations of the cases themselves, which are primary sources. It is not reasonable to suggest that on the strength of two case citations, "a reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge" could readily verify the claim made in the WP article regarding what was the effect of those judgments. The understanding of the effect of those two judgments must be based on a secondary source. This is a problem which plagues many articles in the field of law. I think it stems from this case citation approach being the prevailing style in the writing of scholarly papers in the field. However, it is not valid to transfer this use of primary sources in creating works in the secondary literature into the WP domain, which must rely on secondary sources in creating a tertiary literature. I encourage all the law students, law professionals, journalists and others who contribute to these articles to just pull out your case law handbooks and textbooks - it doesn't have to be anything as fancy as the Harvard Law Review - and provide secondary sources to ensure verifiability of these articles. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:19, 3 February 2010 (UTC)"[reply]
Other views? hamiltonstone (talk) 22:23, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have specific examples where this is happening in this article? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:29, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "None of the early treaties addressed hunting and fishing rights" is cited only to the treaty texts themselves - primary sources.
  • Much of the text around these early points (in "Early treaties") is cited jointly to the primary documents and to the the court case Menominee Tribe of Indians et al. v. United States. I am presuming the case is being treated here as a secondary source. If that's consistent with MOSLAW, then fine, but I would have expected a scholarly article about the treaties here.
  • "In 1954, Congress terminated the federally recognized status of the Menominee in Menominee Indian Termination Act, codified at 25 U.S.C. § 891–902" - this appears cited only to the statute. It seems unlikely to me that "a reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge" would be able to readily work out that this was the effect of the statute, but that may depend where one thinks one should 'set the bar' for a reasonable educated person.
  • My main concerns are probably with sections "State enforcement actions" and "Federal Court of Claims" where I think the majority of cites are to case law. The cases are cited to support lines such as "Since the Menominee was still a tribe, although not one under federal trusteeship, the tribe had a right to assert a claim arising out the Wolf River Treaty in accordance with the Indian Claims Commission Act and the Tucker Act". If other editors believe that this is information that a reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge would be able to reach these conclusions with only the case law before them, then I'm happy for my oppose to be disregarded. hamiltonstone (talk) 12:13, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
@Hamiltonstone. Per WP:MOSLAW, Referencing section (at the bottom of the page), it states:
"Where both primary and secondary sources are available, one should cite both. While primary sources are more "accurate", secondary sources provide more context and are easier on the layperson. Where primary and secondary sources conflict factually, the primary source should be given priority." (emphasis added)
Given that this a legal article, it was written in accordance with WP:MOSLAW, which is part of the overall WP:MOS. It is the consensus of the WP community. Regards, GregJackP Boomer! 02:33, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • <scratches head> Thanks - I'm not seeing anything at MOSLAW that speaks to my argument, but I may be missing something. I work with the law a lot, but I am not a lawyer, so I may not be reading things in the same way as others including yourself. hamiltonstone (talk) 12:13, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 11:12, 26 September 2010 [23].

Mary Anning edit

Nominator(s): Rusty Cashman (talk) 06:57, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... There was a lot of work on this article the first few months of this year and it passed GA in March. Ever since then I and other editors have been making improvements, mostly copy edits to improve the prose. I now believe it is FA quality.Rusty Cashman (talk) 06:57, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. No problems with dablinks or deadlinks. PL290 (talk) 07:40, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Cool topic. I'll certainly be giving the article a read through, but, first, images- File:Mary Anning painting.jpg is lacking author information (though it is claimed the author died over seventy years ago), and has a rather confusing mention of GFDL which could do with removing. A source for File:Duria Antiquior.jpg would also be good. Other than that, very nice. J Milburn (talk) 21:17, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The artist who painted the famous portrait of Anning at the British Museum is unknown. I have edited the file description to state this explicitly. It should not be an issue for copyright purposes because the painting is from the first half of the 19th Century and therefore is clearly in the public domain. I have updated the Duria Antiquior file to show where I got the original image, which was from an article on the original water colour painting, which is at the Department of Geology at Amgueddfa Cymru (a Welsh museum). Again there shouldn't be a copyright issue here because the original watercolour was painted in 1830, and the artist, Henry De la Beche, died in 1855. Rusty Cashman (talk) 22:52, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, I didn't expect there to be copyright issues (though I guess it's possible that they are modern reproductions "in the style of" or something) it's just good to have the sourcing top-notch. Thanks. J Milburn (talk) 10:44, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, taking a read through.

  • "In 1800, when she was 15 months old, an extraordinary event occurred." It kind of is, but that's not the most neutral of phrases. Perhaps it would be best to first clarify that "members of her community would attribute the child's curiosity, intelligence, and lively personality to the incident" before talking about the event itself?
Done. Rusty Cashman (talk) 19:24, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Both Mary and her brother Joseph accompanied their father on occasions when he searched the nearby cliffs for fossils to sell." Seeing as you've just said he died, how about "Both Mary and her brother Joseph had accompanied their father on occasions when he searched the nearby cliffs for fossils to sell." Alternatively, perhaps you could include that detail earlier?
Done. Rusty Cashman (talk) 19:43, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The cliffs could be dangerously unstable, especially in winter when rain sometimes caused landslides that often drew collectors like the Annings because they exposed new fossils" That sentence could do with splitting.
Done. Rusty Cashman (talk) 19:43, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • A photograph of the cliffs would be nice. We have this, which is pretty cool.
Looks like FunkMonk added it along with another really good image. Rusty Cashman (talk) 02:10, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Lady Harriet Silvester" Who is this?
The following is from (Torrens 1995) :"The woman was Lady Harriet

Silvester (1753-1843), widow of a former Recorder of the City of London. She visited Mary on 17 September 1824 and recorded in her diary the 'very extraordinary history of this young woman'." The quote from her on Anning is widely reproduced (though couple of online sites misspell her name as "Lady Sivester"). The citation in Torrens is "E. Welch, 'Lady Silvester's tour through Devonshire in 1824', Devon and Cornwall Notes and Queries (1967), 30, 313 and (1973), 32, 265-6." That is as much as I have been able to find out. Rusty Cashman (talk) 02:53, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • "William Buckland who lectured on geology at Oxford often" Comma after "Buckland" and "Oxford"?
Done. Rusty Cashman (talk) 03:54, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Also held against Anning was her working class background" You've already mentioned the working class bit a sentence before
Done. Rusty Cashman (talk) 03:54, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a young woman who sometimes accompanied her while she collected" Name?
Done. Rusty Cashman (talk) 03:54, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "deep time" That's not a term I'm familiar with- link?
Ok, I linked deep time, even though it was linked in the lead. I think that with an article this long it is Ok if a few key terms are linked more than once. Unfortunately when the article was nominate for GA it was heavily over linked and the reviewer made a pass through and deleted all the duplicate links, which was mostly a good thing, but I have quietly added a few back in key places since, and I agree that since this is sort of a "term of art" used by modern historians of science it is probably worth linking in both the lead and the body. Rusty Cashman (talk) 08:49, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "its popular pastor, a fellow fossil collector, left for the United States to campaign against slavery and was replaced by a less likeable individual." Do we know the names of these two people?
Done. Rusty Cashman (talk) 08:49, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a bad investment" What/who?
This is complicated. According to the source (Emling 2009) there are multiple conflicting versions of events. She invested the money with someone in London, and that man either died, leaving her with no way to recover the money or ran off with the money. The person responsible is not named. No other source that I have found even says that much about what happened so I am not clear on what more would be useful to add. Rusty Cashman (talk) 08:49, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "her death her" Comma after "death"
Done. Rusty Cashman (talk) 01:46, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there no criticism? No anger she appeared in the publications? No upper-class types trying to downplay her importance? You mention "the scepticism of her fellow townspeople of Lyme"- what did this entail?
Not really. I don't know of anyone who criticised De la Beche's decision to include the eulogy in the Geological Society transactions. By that time Anning had earned quite a bit of respect. There was not much overt criticism of Anning in scientific circles. The only things I can think of is a somewhat unflattering description of her that Gideon Mantel put in a letter, which doesn't seem particularly relevant and Cuvier's accusation of fraud which is discussed in the article. For the most part the slights to Anning were ones of omission as when someone like Coneybeare or Owen just failed to mention her name when writing papers on her discoveries. Even then there was probably little or no personal animus involved. They just didn't consider her a "gentleman" therefore they felt no obligation to mention her any more than they felt an obligation to mention the names of the quarrymen, ditch diggers, and road workers, who often found fossils and sold them to wealthy collectors, who, as Torrens points out, were often credited in scientific papers of that period as the discoverers of a fossil when all they did was purchase it and donate it to a museum or make it available for examination. Rusty Cashman (talk) 01:46, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have gone back and added a couple of sentence to the "interactions" section to make this a little more clear. Rusty Cashman (talk) 02:16, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "There it created a sensation, and raised questions in scientific and even religious circles about what the new science of geology was revealing about ancient life and the history of the earth." This is very interesting- any chance of an expansion of that point?
I added a little more context, but I don't want to go too far in this direction. This is not a general article about the history of paleontology. Rusty Cashman (talk) 06:17, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "found an 'unrivalled specimen' of Dapedium politum," Why inverted commas? If this is a quote, why not quote marks?
Fixed. Rusty Cashman (talk) 06:17, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wow, I did not know that about extinction. That's really interesting, thanks :P
  • "ground breaking" hyphen?
Somebody fixed this. Rusty Cashman (talk) 06:52, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "made into a feature film in 1981" Do we not have an article on the film? Even if we don't, a redlink wouldn't hurt.
Done. Rusty Cashman (talk) 07:00, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Acrodus anningiae, and Belenostomus anningiae," Italics and links? Again, don't be scared of redlinks.
Somebody fixed this. Rusty Cashman (talk) 06:52, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Mary Anning 'facsimile' was" Again, why the inverted commas?
Somebody fixed this. Rusty Cashman (talk) 06:52, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • You have some inconsistency in terms of speech marks and italics in the references. I note you have italicised book names in the prose (as the MOS recommends) so I would recommend italicising them in the references, too. Also, you've put some paper titles in speech marks (again, as is recommended) yet not others. Some external link references have accessdates, and some don't (I'd say it's best they all do...). Ref is currently formatted as "J. Smith" instead of the "Smith, John" used elsewhere and a few refs (52, 53) should italicse the names of the periodicals (and link if we have articles). On a similar note, it would be helful if some more of the publishers were linked.

That took longer than I expected :P Very nice article, really interesting subject matter. I think this would make a great FP once a few tweaks have been made. J Milburn (talk) 11:41, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments:

  • Book titles in References and Further reading should be italicised per MOS. Likewise, article titles per MOS should be within quote marks.
  • Note 3 needs attention
Not an issue anymore. That footnote is now gone.Rusty Cashman (talk) 06:52, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I presume your question is what makes it a reliable source. This question came up during the GA review and here was my response. "Strange science is an educational web site that is self published, but it is supported, approved, or endorsed by a variety of organizations including the National Science Foundation, encyclopedia Britanica (who gave it a Web's best sites award in 2009), School zone who gave it a 5 star rating, and KidsSites.com who lists it as one of the top science sites for kids, and it lists the sources used for each of its articles. I should think it is Ok for what this article uses it for." If you need more information than that please let me know. Rusty Cashman (talk) 03:54, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed that and the Dorset Page as sources, the first because it looks self-published, and the second because it's just a local council page by the looks of it, and they're both tertiary sources anyway. It would be better to use the sources they used. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 06:55, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok but I have gone back and re-added them as external links. They are useful and well written articles and therefore they are useful as external links and the standards for suitability as an external link are not the same as the requirements for reliable source. I really don't agree with the decision that they are not RS. They are self published web sites but that does not automatically make them not reliable sources. There has to be a process by which a self published site acquires the status of being reliable in this day and age when so much material is only published on the web, and it should have something to do with how trusted the site is by other sites and organizations. That should be particularly true of a site like strange science which has become a major educational site. As far as this article is concerned the loss of them as sources is not major problem since as you say most of the information in them was available elsewhere. The loss of the Dorset Page as a source will mean some changes to the section on ichthyosaurs as some of the information about the discovery of the first ichthyosaur namely "and a year later a storm weathered away part of the cliff and exposed some of the rest of the skeleton" I was only able to get from the Dorset Page. I will reword the section after I have a chance to review the sources I can use.Rusty Cashman (talk) 08:18, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, my bad, Emling 2009 does support everything there. So we didn't actually loose anything with the two deleted sources. Rusty Cashman (talk) 20:32, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise sources look OK. Brianboulton (talk) 23:37, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support, one clarification point below Comment CoI, I did the GA review. I made these edits, please check. Note that putting '' around titles in the template removes the italics which the template would otherwise automatically format Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:58, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Due to her skill in locating and preparing fossils, as well as the richness of the Jurassic era marine fossil beds at Lyme Regis where she lived, she made a number of important finds. — This reads poorly to me, what about something like Her skill in locating and preparing fossils led to her making a number of important finds in the rich Jurassic era marine fossil beds near her home in Lyme Regis
  • Civil list — can't be correct, with one word capitalised and not the other. Must be both or neither
  • Deep time — as at GA, what's wrong with geologic time?
The term is no longer in the lead. I don't see a problem with the way it is used in the body of the article as it is the preferred term among historians of science and others for the idea of long course of the earth's (and life's) history that developed in the late 18th and early 19th century. Besides the Martin Rudwick book Scenes out of Deep Time that I cited in the discussion at the GA review. Here are some more examples: [24], [25],[26], and [27]. It is somewhat of a synonym for 'geologial time' but that term is more often used as a synonym for our modern geologic time scale (which is what the link geological time redirects to) and that isn't quite the meaning we want here because the concept of a geologic time scale in something like the modern form (with different eras and ages in a sequential order that was constant across the globe) did not exist until very near the end of Anning's life (John Phillips created the modern one in 1845), where as the concept that the Earth had a long history (a sense of deep time) was very much a topic of discussion during her entire career. Therefore I think deep time is the most appropriate term. Rusty Cashman (talk) 07:31, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Heroine of Lyme Regis: The Story of Mary Anning the Celebrated Geologist — Can we have the author, either in the text or as a note?
  • note 6 is a bare url
  • Ref 12. Magazine is capitalised, nothing else. Can this be right? Why is it formatted as a book?
  • Anonymous ref is formatted as a book, actually a journal
  • Conybeare (1824) and de la Beche are formatted as web pages, should be as journals since they are on-line copies of real publications. Shouldn't they both be Transactions of...?
  • Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London (Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society) — why the Roman repeat of the italic publication (twice)
Jim, I think I fixed all of the above except for the deep time issue, because I don't know the difference between that and geologic time, so I'm reluctant to fiddle; and the Conybear and de la Beche webpage issue, as I didn't follow what was meant. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 01:52, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • My point is that they are on-line versions of real journals, not web-only pages, and should be formatted as journals. Title in quotation marks, not italics, journal title (in italics, Transactions of the Geological Society), not the publisher (Geological Society), no retrieval date needed. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 17:09, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • (1) "Henry De la Beche, who later became one of Britain's leading geologists, collected fossils with Anning (and sometimes with her brother Joseph as well) when they were both still teenagers." Just checking that it was Henry and Anning who were the teenagers, not Anning and Joseph.
  • (2) Is switching from a Congregational church to an Anglican one (both Protestant Christian) really a religious conversion?
  • (3) I would consider adding to the lead that she's the source of "she sold seashells on the seashore."
SlimVirgin talk|contribs 18:40, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed the above myself. Now a little concerned that the "sea shells" thing may not be well-sourced. Discussing that and some other issues on the article's talk page. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 00:01, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've added to the lead that Dickens wrote about her, that she was the subject of the famous tongue-twister, and that a Royal Society panel placed her third in the top-ten British women to have influenced the history of science. [28] SlimVirgin talk|contribs 21:11, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We say her father died when she was 12, but Dickens says 10. Do we have a good source for 12? SlimVirgin talk|contribs 21:21, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I just noticed that the first reference to Emling is pp. 1–22. Could we have some more precise referencing to make it easier to check?SlimVirgin talk|contribs 04:19, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've added some more page numbers myself. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 05:21, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It was November 1810, when she was eleven, so I changed that. Do we have a source saying she was discriminated against because of her religion? SlimVirgin talk|contribs 00:46, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've added one myself. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 00:01, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The article says no fossil species was named after her in her lifetime, but this page says Acrodus anningiae was named in 1839. Do we know whether that's correct? SlimVirgin talk|contribs 01:27, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A source says "The only two British species that were - the fish Acrodus anningiae of. 1841 and Belenostomus anningiae of 1844 - were both named by the Swiss"[29] (can't see more of the paper), which is two within her lifetime. FunkMonk (talk) 04:00, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just to be clear, the article says John Fowles wrote in 1969 that it was a disgrace that no BRITISH scientist had named a species after Anning in her life time. This is quite well known (many sources cite this passage from Fowles) and quite accurate. Two sentences later the article points out that the Swiss-American scientist Louis Agassiz did name the two fish after her. I fail to see a problem here.Rusty Cashman (talk) 06:23, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, that's different. But it could still be mentioned that the two fish were named in her lifetime just to make it clear, for some reason each source lists a different year though. FunkMonk (talk) 09:58, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question about references: I was wondering what system you're using for short refs as opposed to long ones. I see some articles in the References section too (not just books), though others are listed in long form in the footnotes. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 17:42, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is OK if a source is a just a website that can be linked to directly to just have it in the footnote, but if a source requires significant bibliographic information (author, publisher, ISBN number, or journal, issue number, page numbers etc.) or if the source is going to cited multiple times I have tried to move the source to references to keep the footnote section as compact and uncluttered as possible. I have also used the harvnb template as much as possible so that you can click on the footnote and see the reference. However, some other folks have added footnotes containing sources during this FAC preocess that I would be inclined to move to refs. The one that stands out to me is the Torrens article in the Oxford online dictionary of national biography that someone has added in a footnote, which I think should be listed as a reference. Rusty Cashman (talk) 19:37, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also the Dickens piece should appear in the reference section as well. If noone beats me to it I will take care of this tonight when I get home from work. Rusty Cashman (talk) 19:44, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've not been able to work out what your system is, so I didn't know what to do when adding refs myself. The usual thing is: (1) having everything in short form in the footnotes and long form in References; (2) everything in long form in the footnotes, and everything repeated in a References section or no References section at all because repetitive; or (3) books in short form in the footnotes and in long form in References, and everything else long form in the footnotes and not mentioned in the References. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 20:44, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well I couldn't see the problem even with IE (I just switched to Firefox a couple of months ago), but I realize the problem might be IE version specific so I have replaced the Quote Box with a Quotation template. Hopefully this will avoid the problem. Rusty Cashman (talk) 19:14, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Request for withdrawal from the nominator. While the article has improved greatly during this cycle, and most of the comments have been addressed. There have been some valid concerns raised on the talk page about how inconsistencies in some of the sources have been handled. It will probably take some time because of the necessary research and discussion to resolve these properly, and it is not helpful to try and do so with the time pressure of an active FAC. Therefore I would like to withdraw this nomination, and come back and try again in a few weeks, after all the editors involved have had a chance to come to a consensus on how to handle some of these conflicts between various sources.Rusty Cashman (talk) 02:23, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:32, 24 September 2010 [30].

Dancing mania edit

Nominator(s): Aiken (talk) 13:23, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... it's a bizarre topic and I feel it meets the relevant criteria. Aiken (talk) 13:23, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 13:38, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • images both OK, although might be an idea to add Breughel's dates to the second one Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:51, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would if I could Jim, but I don't have the information. Aiken (talk) 15:02, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral leaning oppose. This really needs a ruthless going-over by someone like Tony, as to me it has too many rough edges. Striking the "leaning oppose". I do think this could do with a thorough wash-and-scrub from an MOS hardliner, but I won't oppose over stylistic issues. – iridescent 15:22, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Added a note.
  • The lead says "One of the first major outbreaks was in Aachen, Germany, on 24 June 1374, believed to be at least partly a result of ergot poisoning", but nowhere in the text does it mention the ergot theory in relation to this particular outbreak;
  • Removed this.
  • "One of the most prominent theories is that victims suffered from ergot poisoning" needs to be meticulously sourced, ideally to more than one source; ergotism can cause convulsions, but since it also shuts off the flow of blood to the limbs, it certainly couldn't cause any kind of prolonged activity. Additionally, it was an extremely common disorder and it's extremely unlikely that witnesses wouldn't have recognised the very distinctive symptoms;
  • Added more sources.
  • "St Vitus Dance" or "St Vitus's Dance"?
  • Changed all to St Vitus' Dance.
  • Lots of weasel words ("some believe ", "it is believed", "scientists have described"…) all of which appear to be sourced to the single source of Bartholomew;
  • Trimmed these down, though with a topic like this, it is difficult to be certain about things.
  • Try to get rid of the Fortean Times reference. There's nothing from it that's necessary to the article, and FT is generally an unreliable source unless the particular author is recognised as an authority. The philosophy of Forteanism ("all views are equally valid") is fundamentally opposite to that of Wikipedia, and while FT does carry some respectable articles, it also carries a great deal of extremely dubious amateur original research;
  • That's not exactly true. None of the available sources discuss the similarities to the Pied Piper other than that one, for example.
  • I think you've missed my point completely here. The reason no other source other than Fortean Times has discussed it isn't because FT is a superior journal willing to go the extra mile when it comes to research, and has stumbled on a hitherto unknown fact; it's because FT (and its sister magazine Bizarre) are mainly written by enthusiastic amateurs and have a reputation for accuracy and fact-checking considerably worse even than Wikipedia's. FT has a "one measures a circle beginning anywhere" policy of treating all research as equally valid, regardless of who's doing it, and thus carries all kind of speculative nonsense. (Every issue of the magazine carries the disclaimer 'From the viewpoint of the mainstream, [FT's] function is [to] lure us into a region of the spirit where the writ of law does not run […] FT is a forum for the discussion of observations and ideas, however absurd or unpopular'.) – iridescent 15:40, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps you have a point. I really do like the connection to the Pied Piper though. I'll see if a more reliable source discusses it. Aiken (talk) 18:18, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I found one and have removed all references to the Fortean Times. Aiken (talk) 15:30, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Try to avoid "Black Death" as a term if you can help it. The term is a modern invention, and not what people in this period would have called it;
  • This is an article written today, for people of today. I don't see why I can't use the most commonly used term for it.
  • "Bartholomew considers raving, an activity which became popular in the latter half of the 20th century, as sharing some features of dancing mania" is such a bizarre statement that it probably warrants an explanatory footnote detailing exactly what he believes. An organised concert or party has nothing in common with the outbreaks of mass hysteria described in the article, other than "some of the people involved may have been dancing in both cases". By all means leave it in, but it needs some kind of explanation;
  • I disagree. The article describes how many of the dances could well have been organised, and participants were often drunk (see the point about wine). Sure they aren't identical, but I've not said that they are. You're right that this could be expanded upon though. Bartholomew describes how the modern-day hallucinations are gained through use of drugs (probably referring to LSD), and these happen at raves. He also describes how participants are often part of a subculture, and act in ways that onlookers may consider odd or bizarre (I personally don't understand the impulse to party all night long). Furthermore, like with the religious cults, raves were sometimes illegal (depending on where they were I guess, I'm not really that knowledgable about them). All these show things in common with dancing mania.
  • Most glaringly (to me); you've completely ignored the two leading books on the topic, The Dancing Plague and A Time to Dance, A Time to Die. We don't expect article writers to cover everything about a topic, but (rightly or not) this has a whiff of "only looked at what we could find on Google". There may be good reasons for not using Waller, but since you quote from his magazine articles presumably you're not opposed to him per se. – iridescent 14:41, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I haven't ignored them. I decided not to use the latter book because that's specific to the 1518 outbreak. I'm certainly not opposed to using him as a source but I don't have access to his book. There are so many other sources out there I don't think it's that big of a deal. The first book I have mentioned, but haven't used because pretty much all of the other sources draw their information from it, but at the same time add other information and updated ideas (as it was written in the 19th century). For example, Bartholomew discusses some of Hecker's commentary, which I've noted. I could have chosen to use it, but I chose to use the other sources, which are all as reliable and comprehensive.

Aiken (talk) 15:00, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment A very interesting article; when I saw the title of the nomination I was worried it might be a computer game but was happily surprised.
  • "one particularly notable outbreak of many occurred in Strasburg in 1518.": I know it's difficult to strike a balance between covering the main points and not going into too much detail in the lead, but it's not clear why the 1518 event is singled out.
  • Well, the 1518 outbreak is the only one with an article, and Waller considers it (and the 1374 outbreak) to be the best recorded examples. Aiken (talk) 14:58, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • ""Dancing mania" comes from the Greek choros (dance) and mania (madness)": do you mean ""Choreomania" comes from the Greek choros (dance) and mania (madness)"? Otherwise the derivation makes little sense as saying that dancing mania literally means dancing madness is a bit pointless.
  • "The earliest known incident occurred in Bernburg, where 18 peasants began singing and dancing around a church, disturbing a Christmas Eve church service in the 1020s": I think the "church" of church service could probably be dropped as it's implied and a bit repetitious as it currently stands. Also, it seems odd to put the date at the end of the sentence when you open with "The earliest known incident...".
  • "at the nearby St. Vitus chapel": should it be "at the nearby St. Vitus' chapel"?
  • Does Bartholomew explain why it's unlikely that it was usually women who were effected? At the moment this is just left hanging.
  • When you mention Bartholomew in the prose, it would be useful to mention why his opinion is worth mentioning. This can be done by simply saying "Historian Robert Bartholomew..." or "Author Robert Bartholomew in his study of mass psychogenic illness and social delusion...". The same goes for Hetherington, Marks, Martino, and Midelfort. You got it right for Justus Hecker.
  • The second item in the further reading section need publication dates.
  • A matter of personal preference, but do the columns of the reference section need to be so narrow?
  • Someone else changed that; I've restored to three columns. Aiken (talk) 14:58, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've made a few edits you'll want to heck over to make sure I haven't changed the meaning of anything. Considering the trickiness of the source material, it's a good effort – I image it's something similar to working on the blood rain article, although this seems to have gained more academic attention. While I am concerned by iridescent's points about two books on the subject being more or less excluded, the article does appear to cover the main points. Nev1 (talk) 14:34, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you very much for your edits and comments. I'll respond to them momentarily, but I did wonder about this change. Was that intentional? Aiken (talk) 14:41, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sort of, I thought that "to which they responded to" was repetitious and convoluted, so tried to simplify it but missed a word. Feel free to undo it though if you don't think the change works. Nev1 (talk) 14:49, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The change is fine, I just couldn't figure out the missing word. Aiken (talk) 14:50, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nev1, do you have any further comments for this article? Aiken (talk) 15:02, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comment: In the bibliography, publishers' details should not be abbreviated (as in "American Psychiatric Pub", which sounds like a crazy drinking club) Disappointingly, this should be spelt out. Otherwise, all sources look OK. Brianboulton (talk) 22:13, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This was what Google books called it. However, I changed it to press instead. Aiken (talk) 15:07, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • "notable outbreak of many occurred" - many what?
  • Strasburg or Strasbourg? In France, Austria, or Germany?
  • Strasbourg. Don't know what you mean otherwise; it occurred in all those places. Aiken (talk) 22:07, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is a Strasb(o)urg in all those places - which one does this refer to? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:28, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Was "dancing mania" coined by Paracelsus, or was it "choreomania"?
  • It was choreomania, which translates to dancing madness (or mania). Aiken (talk) 22:07, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is chorea discussed under Definition and not Explanations?
  • Because it was believed chorea showed similar symptoms. Aiken (talk) 22:07, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes...sorry, maybe I'm being dense, but I don't really understand that explanation. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:28, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Victims of dancing mania often ended their processions at places dedicated to that saint" - Vitus or John?
  • St. Vitus, which is already mentioned in the previous sentence. Aiken (talk) 22:07, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Though the previous sentence calls it St. Vitus' Dance, the sentence before that refers to both saints. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:28, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't link the same term multiple times, especially not in close proximity
  • Don't repeat the word "many" so much, and certainly not more than once per sentence
  • "for which there is abundant evidence, both contemporary and modern-day" - how can you have modern-day evidence of a historic event? Please clarify
  • "it remains unclear whether it was a real illness or a social phenomenon" - if so, then why do you identify it in the very first sentence as a "social phenomenon"?
  • It is difficult to describe it as anything other than a phenomenon, and most sources agree that it was one rather than an illness. That nobody is completely certain is detailed further on. Aiken (talk) 22:07, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the appearance of strange behaviour was down to its unfamiliarity" - what does this mean?
  • What it says. It was strange because it was unfamiliar. Aiken (talk) 22:07, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay. The phrasing doesn't make that clear - can you revise? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:28, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "restored to full health" - source only says "many" were restored, not all survivors
  • "until as late as 1959" - the source mentions a more recent occurrence
  • As I don't have the source to hand, I can't really do anything about this. Aiken (talk) 22:07, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes you do - you include a Google Books link that provides the necessary pages! You no longer need paper to read a book ;-) Nikkimaria (talk) 00:28, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "not all outbreaks involved foreigners" - source?
  • This specific statement needs a source? The outbreaks described already generally make no mentions of foreigners. Aiken (talk) 22:07, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "one of the biggest outbreaks began in Aix-la-Chapelle" - source identifies this as the first major outbreak, not one of the biggest
  • Major and big are used synonymously here. Aiken (talk) 22:07, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Title in Hecker link does not match the one that appears here. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:03, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I hate to do this, because I just love these whacky topics, but this just isn't ready. Iridescent is quite right in saying that it needs a ruthless going over by a good copyeditor, but there are also basic inconsistencies as pointed out above. For instance, the lead describes dancing mania as a social phenomenon, but later we're told that it's "unclear whether it was a real illness or a social phenomenon". Which is it? There's lots of awkwardness in the prose as well, such as "In Italy, a similar phenomenon to dancing mania was tarantism", and "The earliest known outbreak of dancing mania occurred in the 7th century, and it reappeared many times across Europe until about the 17th century". So the 7th-century outbreak reappeared many times? Why so coy with the "about the 17th century"? Later we're told that dancing mania died out by the mid-17th century, not "about the 17th century", whatever that's supposed to mean. Malleus Fatuorum 23:06, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is a stark contrast to what you said here "In general though I really enjoyed it, and I don't see any reason why you couldn't get this through FAC.". Why give me false hope? You're not exactly inexperienced with this process, which is exactly why I came to you - experience and knowledge. Not that I'm blaming you of course, but this has been a big waste of everybody's time when it could have been better at GA instead. Aiken (talk) 23:17, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • You're being a little selective. What I also said to you was "I think you were probably a bit too quick out of the blocks with this FAC, but I suppose that faint heart never won fair lady. With a bit of hard graft you ought to be able to make it, so good luck." In my opinion that "hard graft" hasn't been done. Malleus Fatuorum 23:25, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's a bit late to say that after I posted, but I don't blame you for my being hasty. Aiken (talk) 23:27, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone close this? Apologies for wasting your time. I'll take it to GA instead. Aiken (talk) 23:21, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • No apologies necessary; good luck next time through! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:30, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Aiken, my sincere apologies-- until I archived this FAC, I had not read the article, and only now do I see it's not a dance article, rather a medical article on a topic in which I have some knowledge. I'm afraid that, unless the article conforms to WP:MEDRS on secondary peer-reviewed sources, it will have a hard time at either GAN or FAC. I'm concerned also that I don't see the word Tourette syndrome anywhere on the page, in terms of differential diagnosis. I suggest a peer review, rather than a GAN, and a post to WT:MED to get the docs to look in. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:38, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 13:21, 24 September 2010 [31].

Razer (robot) edit

Nominator(s): The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 09:24, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(My 1st FAC nomination) I am nominating this article because it has recently been granted GA status and I think it's maybe good enough to go to the next level. I think it is also a well written and informative article and would be good to be read by all. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 09:35, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—The link to cylinder leads to a dab page. No dead external links. Please be consistent in using unspaced em dashes or spaced en dashes in running text; see WP:DASH. Ucucha 11:43, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorted that cylinder link. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 11:54, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - Welcome to FAC! I don't mean to discourage you, but unfortunately I feel this article is not ready for FA status. Here are some of my concerns:

  • Too many one-paragraph subsections, which break up the flow of text
  • "up to nine tonnes of pressure per square inch" (and other measurements) - provide conversions to other measurement systems
  • Spell out numbers under 10
  • "2.5 millimetre thickness armour panels versus 1 millimetre before" - grammar
  • "healthy spell of reliability" - what does this mean? Source?
  • "saw this evolution of Razer win" - do you mean this iteration?
  • What's a cush drive?
  • Best Design Award or award?
  • When did Blood join the team, and why?
  • Is the side tournament called Pinball or Pinball Warrior?
  • "end up in the midst of Matilda" - what does this mean? Was it on Matilda? Near Matilda? Does Matilda have a large gap in its middle?
  • "10 milimetre" - spelling and grammar
  • Check out WP:HYPHEN in addition to WP:DASH
  • "to reach a first series semi-final" - what does this mean?
  • "Against Wild Thing, Razer damaged an exposed drive wheel" - its own or its opponent's?
  • "In the last eight" - the last eight what?
  • Be sure to maintain an encyclopedic tone at all times
  • What's a pull-back topy?
  • Source for the stats in the infobox not mentioned in article text?
  • Combine identical refs - see WP:NAMEDREFS
  • Publisher for ref 12?
  • Ref 14: what is "w/e"?
  • Need consistent formatting for references
  • If you're going to include publisher location, make it more specific than "USA"
  • Battlebots is mentioned only in the lead
  • —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nikkimaria (talk • contribs)
Well, I've dealt with a couple of those issues, but I have noticed that some of the issues you brought up have been covered with links in them in an earlier part in the page. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 13:18, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Significant contributor was not consulted in advance of this nom, problems highlighted, closing this nomination per FAC instructions. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:20, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I thought I'd jumped the gun a bit adding it so soon. So Shall I get the creators say so then nominate it again? The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 13:22, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
For a subsequent nom, you should 1) get clearance from Crispy that the article is ready; 2) get clearance from Nikkimaria that previous issues were addressed; and 3) wait at least two weeks (see FAC instructions). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:26, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hi all, I just thought I'd drop everyone here a quick line as the major contributor. I'll admit I was quite surprised to find that the article made the jump from newly listed GA to FAC in the time it took me to do my shopping! ;-) I agree that the article isn't ready, but am very grateful for your comments which can only help The C of E, myself and other more occasional editors to improve this article. Thanks all for your time, and my best wishes. CountdownCrispy 15:15, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:47, 23 September 2010 [32].

The Tale of Timmy Tiptoes edit

Nominator(s): Susanne2009NYC (talk) 04:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it meets FA criteria. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 04:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 04:08, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment—2c is consistent and complete. 1c: No concerns, I google scholared the last 20 years and checked the two leading articles. Articles regarding this specific text are rare Fifelfoo (talk) 09:32, 12 September 2010 (UTC) improvement: suggest you consult Underhill (2002) DOI: 10.1111/j.1754-8845.2002.tb00755.x regarding commodification and Timmy. Fifelfoo (talk) 04:33, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Have entered a commodification section using other sources.
  • image review All the images are suitably licensed for en-wiki use only, so no problems Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:20, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'd love to see some Beatrix Potter FAs, not least because it'd give me something else to put in Portal:Cumbria!

  • "and grows so fat eating nuts stored in the tree that he cannot leave the tree via the woodpecker hole by which he entered" A little awkward
  • "characters nor provide an" nor do they?
  • "Potter's greatest books" Not very NPOV
  • "and are accounted the reasons" Not sure this makes sense- as the reasons, maybe? As some of?
  • "she managed to squeeze out" Not very encyclopedic
  • "there about 1900." Around?
  • "squirrels in the zoo" Which zoo?
Have yet to find anything specific on this. Likely, the LZG but without a citation cannot enter.
No further info.
  • "a specimen in the zoo." Again.
  • "Potter revised the tale's lengthy text" You haven't actually mentioned any text yet.
  • "expressed some doubts about the effectiveness of the bird calls until she could see them in print," Not clear what this means, sorry
  • "and most of the illustrations" Again, you're yet to mention any illustrations
Working on this.
Believe this is now satisfactory.
  • "her London publisher, from her parents' holiday home, Lindeth Howe, in Windermere in July 1911." The end of a very long sentence. I think it's missing a comma, but perhaps you could split the sentence?
  • "a few minor alterations" Do we know what they are?
  • "her last books were below par." Again, not so neutral.
  • "Timmy and Goody are gathering nuts." Repetition of "nuts".
  • "same hole that Timmy had been forced into" Same hole into which Timmy had been forced by the other squirrels.
  • It's not clear why the chipmunk refuses to leave?
It's not clear in the tale, and I've found nothing in the commentaries.
Nothing on this.
  • "Timmy and Goody now keep their nut cache secured with a padlock." What, even today? :p

I wonder whether there may be more sources to be found, more to be said about the subject. It's well researched and written, there's no doubt about that- nice job. J Milburn (talk) 21:19, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Susanne2009NYC, pls see the WP:FAC instructions; rather than using templates and striking reviewer comments, and extending the length of the FAC, you can simply add commentary at the end of reviewer comments when you are done. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:50, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've struck the issues you dealt with. The text's looking much better already- the first section is now much clearer, and much more detailed. I also feel the last section could be stronger if criticism was arranged by theme (plot, illustrations, etc) rather than by author. J Milburn (talk) 12:21, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! I'm dealing with last few unresolved issues, looking here and there. I've rewritten the plot to incorporate some of Potter's text and have broken the last section down by themes. I'm trying to locate two academic articles about Potter and her techniques that may enhance the article. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 07:16, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Have a commodification section at article's end with two images but I'm not sure these are acceptable. Uploading images is complicated and I have little experience with this. I did what I thought was correct. However, if the images have to go, then they have to go. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 08:56, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid none of the newly added images (the book, the biscuit tin or the ornament) are OK. While the artwork on the book and the tin are PD, meaning it would be alright to upload photos of them, the photos are still copyrightable. As for the ornament, that is an artistic work in its own right, and so, as well as the fact the photographer can claim copyright, someone will have the copyright of the ornament itself. I will remove those images for you; if you give me permission, I will delete them off the bat, otherwise I will have to nominate them for deletion. J Milburn (talk) 09:49, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please remove them. I'm sorry I've made so much work for you.

Just having a quick read through again-

  • "have found their way to market shelves over the years" could be rephrased.
Done.
Have linked to Royal Doulton
  • "Timmy Tiptoes merchandise includes variously posed figurines of Timmy alone and Timmy and Goody together modelled by Beswick Pottery and Royal Albert, a Beswick figurine of Chippy Hackee suffering from his head cold, a 1989 Schmid Christmas ornament depicting Timmy and Goody under their umbrella, and a 1996 nut canister from Warne illustrated with scenes from the tale and appropriate captions." Do you have a source for any of this? That stuff must be collectable- there'll presumably be books or websites out there detailing them.
Not yet. I pulled the items from a "Timmy Tiptoes" search on ebay. I've found a Beatrix Potter collectables guide.
Reference entered.
  • The paragraph on dramatic adaptations seems to be rather padded- could we stick to details about the Timmy Tiptoes adaptation?
Have deleted this paragraph.
  • Further, it would seem that the story wasn't adapted for The World of Peter Rabbit and Friends- if you want to keep a mention, perhaps note that it wasn't?
I'd rather not keep this and, as I recall, TTT was not adapted to the ballet film.
  • Did these characters feature in any of the painting books?
This I don't know. She was working on the Peter Rabbit painting book just before taking up Timmy Tiptoes so it's unlikely there. Possibly Tom Kitten's (1917) or Jemima Puddle-duck's (1925) books but have no sources that state so. I have not seen the 3 painting books.
  • "The relentless flood of ancillary merchandise over the decades has more than played its part in making Potter's tales the rock-solid nursery classics she predicted." Again, not very NPOV
Deleted.

A section on commodification is good, (though "adaptations" or something may be a better title) but it doesn't currently feel like it's about this book so much.

"Adaptations" regarding fictional works I believe is restricted to dramatic adaptations. "Merchandise" I think is appropriate here. Have edited this section to focus on TTT.

J Milburn (talk) 09:59, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

More (and sorry, this is up and down)-

Linked to William Henry Hunt (painter) on the authority of the Hobbs book.
  • "asserts, "Minute" Why the comma?
Corrected.
  • Paragraph two of "illustrations" feels a bit "so what?"- it's not about this book.
Cut.
Fixed.
  • "wear (or not wear clothes)" Close the bracket after "wear", not "clothes"
Done.
  • "(not a cute little storybook house)" Is that a direct quote? The phrase isn't wildly encyclopedic
The source reads "not in a cozy little 'house' somewhere". Revised. Paraphrased the source.
  • "Although she continued to publish into the 1930s, her work depended principally upon decades-old concepts filed away in her publisher's offices and aging illustrations tucked away in her portfolio." Ref?
Will find.
Ref entered.
  • Do we not have an actual publication date? I appreciate it probably didn't work as it does today, so fair enough if not
Have not found one yet and this bothers me but will continue to look.
Have found only month and year.

Hope this is helping.

It certainly is! And thank you so much! Susanne2009NYC (talk) 11:59, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

J Milburn (talk) 10:11, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment I realize it was written with a US setting and for the American market, but the infobox still (I think rightly) gives "England" for country. However, the article is written in US English. I'd get a UK editor to convert it. Johnbod (talk) 03:50, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral Support Spelling: "Potter's artistically successful books were written for specific childen", "Goody is seen in the accompanying illustation", "but apparently in Potter's personal need for a splash of color here and there" (agree with Johnbod about spelling - also "Arthur Gredington, the head modeler", "a 1 and 5/8 inch diameter enameled box"), "the depiction of domestic discord is not typical for Potter nor for children's literature of the period" (replace nor with or); odd sentence "For her earlier productions, Potter had small mammals (rabbits, a red squirrel, mice, a hedgehog) conveniently at home..." (look at the list), "and not drawn from from nature",; '"Who's bin digging-up my nuts?"' needs a sic. Aiken (talk) 22:39, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 03:56, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Two more drive-by comments-

  • You currently have an empty notes section.
Done. Deleted. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 10:27, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The merchandise section, while far better, and nicely referenced, has an awful lot of general material that does not seem to belong in this article.
Done. Cut some material. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 10:27, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This article has been all over the place during the review- it's now completely different. If this fails, do not be disheartened, just work with what has been said, and renominate in a few weeks. I would be happy to review again next time around (or even between nominations if you feel it would be helpful). J Milburn (talk) 23:31, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed it has. I want to withdraw the nomination to continue working on the article, but leaving it in the queue will hopefully draw some useful comments, suggestions, and recommendations about the extensive and daunting improvements the article needs. There are very few children's books listed as FAs so I have few models in putting this article together. The only young children's book I could find was Make Way for Ducklings. I'm concerned Timmy Tiptoes lacks sales figures, number of copies issued at release, total number of copies sold since release, non-English editions, audiobook editions, global impact and similar concerns but in all of the expert literature on Timmy Tiptoes nothing has surfaced. The article would be charming on the main page in the autumn (the season of squirrel and chipmunk nut hoarding and caching) but I don't think it will make it that far. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 10:27, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:34, 23 September 2010 [33].

Slipknot (band) edit

Nominator(s): REZTER TALK ø 00:33, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because after a complete rewrite and edit I believe this article meets the FA Criteria. REZTER TALK ø 00:33, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Fixed I have replaced/fixed all the dead links. --REZTER TALK ø 08:36, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fixed - I have replaced the link with the correct one. --REZTER TALK ø 21:15, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment 2c: inability to verify statements against citation quality, leading to serious 1c issues. I reviewed the first 50 footnotes and the bibliography. Generally: lack of citation consistency, lack of locations for minor presses especially ones with common names, incorrect citation of the titles of newspapers and magazines. The most significant issue is lack of time stamps for material to be verified off sequentially played media (audio, video) which directly impacts on the capacity to verify and locate quotes and statements. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:42, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Multiple varying date formats, consistency please.
  • All three presses listed under "Literature" require locations for supply and verification purposes, they're small presses, at least one with a commonly used name.
  • Metro (London) is a newspaper, give them italics, indicate location (as it is a common title and requires clarification.)
  • "Slipknot – Up To Our Necks. [DVD]. Chrome Dreams. 2004." — lacks editor / director attribution; press requires location. Both the 16 second excerpt and the claim, "At this time the future of Slipknot was unclear and there was speculation over whether the band had split and the possibility of a third album." are footnoted to this. Neither has a time-stamp location for the point at which the proof occurs in the text.
  • "Slipknot – X-Posed, The Interview. [CD]. Chrome Dreams. 2001." editor or interviewer, press location, time stamp for the portion referred to.
  • "Porter, Dick (2003). Rapcore: The Nu-Metal Rap Fusion. London: Plexus. ISBN 0859653218." Location in text cited required for verification purposes.
  • ""The joy of 666". NME. 15 May 2001. http://www.nme.com/news/slipknot/7781. Retrieved 25 April 2009." NME is a magazine, deserves italics for its title.
  • "Shawn Crahan (Director). (2006). Voliminal: Inside the Nine. [DVD]. Roadrunner Records." timestamp for verification purposes
  • USA Today is a Newspaper.
  • ""Slipknot Bassist Died Of 'Accidental' Overdose". Belinda Goldsmith, Reuters. 2010-06-22. http://www.billboard.com/news/slipknot-bassist-died-of-accidental-overdose-1004099551.story#/news/slipknot-bassist-died-of-accidental-overdose-1004099551.story. Retrieved 2010-08-20." Authors come first
  • Fixed - I believe I have addressed all of your issues regarding the referencing. I will try address your other concerns later today or tomorrow. --REZTER TALK ø 11:02, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

THe article is underdeveloped, espcially the style section which has two sentences dicussing lyrics and little on genre of music. Sentence oddities like "Including; a case in 2003 " and non-sentences like Featuring a typical heavily down-tuned guitar set-up (lead, rhythm, and bass guitars), two percussionists in addition to the primary drummer and electronics (samples and turntables). redundancies: Burger King responded to the suit with a countersuit, and in that suit pointed out that many other bands. just pointing out. Taylor had this to say. just said. Furthering his point by saying: "there are always going to be mental disorders and people who cause violence for no other reason than the fact that they're fucked up and lost." again not a proper sentence. Even though Slipknot have been linked to several cases like this, there has been no incidents in which they were proven to be liable. redundant first part. vocalist taylor appears a thousand times. we already recognise this the first time. also issues with tense switching back and forth/ Another source of controversy was the band's 2005 lawsuit against Burger King, claiming that company created the advertising based band Coq Roq to capitalize on Slipknot's image. not grammatical and hyphen. "advertising campaign designed to motivate young people to vote". there's lawsuit and then the next minute theres a campaign getting young people to vote? Throughout their career, Slipknot have continued to develop and change their image. continued redundant with throughout. Several band members have noted that wearing the masks helps keep their personal lives private, percussionist Fehn went as far as saying it was a "blessing" that they do not get recognized. new sentence, or semi-colon. Most notably; for the music video and live performances of the song "Vermilion" in 2004 and 2005 the band members wore death masks made from casts of their own faces,[74] and in 2008 prior to the release of All Hope Is Gone Slipknot released photos of the band wearing large masks, guitarist Root explained that they "represent the ego" - this sentence is an unrepentant abomination. strong oppose edit conflict. 86.141.247.236 (talk) 01:56, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - I have copeditted the sections you brought to my attention and I have extended the Styles and lyrical themes section. I hope you think it's of a better standard and would appreciate your revised opinion on it. --REZTER TALK ø 19:38, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment According to these three books, the band's first name was "Meld", a name that I cannot find mentioned in the present article at all (even though it was present in earlier versions). This is odd; is there a reason for this? It also seems to me these books contain a wealth of further details on the band's history and performance style that one might expect to see covered in a comprehensive treatment; I believe there is room for article expansion. As another reviewer noted above, the article still needs copyediting -- sentences like "As well as their usual masks, there has been several occasions in which Slipknot have incorporated special masks for specific reasons." fall well short of FA standards. --JN466 02:00, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment When I rewrote the main body of the article I wanted the article to more concise. I thought it would be a better move to remove some information that I thought was trivial and keep the article on track without going in to too much detail. I actually deliberated over the use of 'Meld' in the article because they only used it once in a performance before changing it. However, I'd be more than happy to include it in the article. I believe the article is comprehensive and concise and there are other articles based on Slipknot (for example; albums, band members, tours) that go in to further detail. As for copyeditting issues, I don't think the article has terrible issues and I thought that they could be addressed with the comments from reviewers in this process. I would appreciate reviewers help on identifying problems in the article and suggestions on how to make it better. --REZTER TALK ø 10:26, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's not just that we don't mention the Meld performance (I think we should, given that at least three books mention it), it's also that we seem to say the group's first name was "The Pale Ones", a statement which is unsourced. The nearest source cited is Arnopp, but Arnopp does not appear to mention that name. [34], [35]. I can't find the name "The Pale Ones" in any RS. --JN466 14:08, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have added the info on Meld. And the book by Arnopp is the correct source for The Pale Ones. It appears that google books only has a blurb from that book. The exact excerpt from page 40 is: "Come September 1995 [...] Shawn and Paul had started a new endeavour named The Pales Ones" "Shawn was on drums, while Anders Colsefni sang and ex-Body Pit guitarist named Donnie Steele riffed it up." --REZTER TALK ø 14:30, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, thanks. The article contains the sentence, "Slipknot are known for their chaotic and energetic live shows, something which has been attributed to their early success." Two issues: (1) do we mean "contributed" to their early success? "Attributed" does not really make sense. (2) I am having a hard time extracting that info from the cited source, which is http://www.nme.com/reviews/slipknot/6129 .
  • Fixed, I copeditted it and replaced the reference with Allmusic, specifically per this excerpt: "They gradually built an audience through near-constant touring, working their way up to the summer Ozzfest package tour, which really expanded their audience. Their live shows were a much-discussed hit with metal fans, and the band performed with such energy that Crahan gashed his head open on his own drum kit twice that summer, requiring stitches both times." --REZTER TALK ø 21:01, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The next sentence is, "Typically featuring most band members headbanging, several members stage diving and even fighting." You won't get the prose to pass here if you have sentences like that (there are a good number of such sentences.) You can write, Slipknot are known for their chaotic and energetic live shows, typically featuring most band members headbanging, several members stage diving and even fighting. Or you can write, Slipknot are known for their chaotic and energetic live shows. These typically feature most band members headbanging, several members stage diving and even fighting. But you can't write, Slipknot are known for their chaotic and energetic live shows. Typically featuring most band members headbanging, several members stage diving and even fighting. That won't pass as "excellent prose" here. Generally, every sentence is expected to have a subject and a verb, and the second sentence has no subject. You need to go through the article and reformulate sentence fragments that have been made to do the job of sentences; sometimes it may be enough to turn the preceding period into a comma or semi-colon, in other cases you may have to reformulate. Now, the cited source for this sentence is http://www.nme.com/news/slipknot/45333 ; this does not comment on what a "typical" Slipknot show looks like, but is a review of an individual concert. It seems quite plausible that what is described in the review is typical of the band's live shows, but to pass the FA criteria you need to find a source that comments on the typical style of their shows, rather than a review of a single show. For example, is it typical that members have a fist fight, or was it an isolated occurrence? The cited source does not tell us.
  • Fixed, I copyeditted the highlighted sentences and added the reference from the Rapcore book, specifically this excerpt: "Live, Slipknot are a spectacle of non-stop motion, which regularly decends to the level of on-stage brawling between band members." --REZTER TALK ø 21:01, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • If I find time, I may help a bit with the copyediting. --JN466 14:54, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: The rationales on the two music files are downright wrong; they use extremely general terms (which sets off warning signals- a specific explanation of what is being illustrated and why that needs to be illustrated is required) but both rationales claim the songs are "specifically discussed in the article", which they are not. J Milburn (talk) 01:03, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have updated the rationals to include more specific information about their usage. --REZTER TALK ø 14:38, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 14:35, 23 September 2010 [36].

John Babcock edit

Nominator(s): Canadian Paul 17:34, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I feel that it meets all the criteria of a featured article, and over half a year has passed since the subject's death, making it less susceptible to major changes in the future. It had an A-class review at the Military History Wikiproject where all concerns were addressed, but did not pass because it did not attract enough reviewers. It did, however, pass a Good Article review and was kept during the GA sweeps process. Canadian Paul 17:34, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. No problems with dablinks; the external link to Video Interview with John Babcock is dead. PL290 (talk) 19:20, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I couldn't find it anywhere else, so I removed it, as it was merely supplemental. Canadian Paul 23:24, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments -
  • Newspaper and magazine titles in the refs should be in italics. A few are, but the rest aren't, so it should be consistent.
  • Need a page number for current ref 8 (Holmes...)
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool (except for the deadlink as noted above) Ealdgyth - Talk 19:53, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed, hopefully. I replaced the Holmes reference because I couldn't find the information again in a search... plus I think it was referring to British soldiers anyhow... Canadian Paul 23:24, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image copyright review: The only image is a pre-1923 one which is public domain. Stifle (talk) 14:19, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Weak oppose - interesting article, and I'd love to be able to support, but I don't think it's quite at FA standard. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:08, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Canadian spelling and conventions only please - particularly "First World War" vs "World War I" (and Two)
  • Is the township called South Frontenac Township or simply South Frontenac? Be consistent
  • Maclean's should be italicized
  • "On growing up in the area, Babcock claims" - not fond of this phrasing, and since he's now deceased it should probably be past tense
  • "He would return to the area in 1919...but soon after left for the United States" - grammar
  • "Nevertheless, Babcock's relatives continue to work at the Crater Dairy farm...and the community grew to greatly respect John" - phrasing
  • Specify $C vs $US - it's unclear for some values
  • Some overlap between sections, and some statements contradict each other
  • "Babcock then undertook an ocean voyage to England and, in Liverpool, he was stationed with the 26th Reserve and sent to Bexhill-on-Sea where he trained with about 1,300 others, about a third of whom were veterans from battles in France" - quite a long sentence, could it be split?
  • "There Babcock underwent a physical, where it was discovered that he was underage. He was designated status A-4: physically fit, but underage.[6] At the time, the minimum age for combat was eighteen.[8] Babcock was turned down, but managed to make it all the way to Halifax by train before he was stopped by the company commander.[6]" - a bit repetitious
  • "Soldiers holding acting ranks in the Canadian forces receive the salary and allowances of the rank, but can be reverted to a previous rank at any time due to their lack of the necessary training or experience to hold that position permanently" - the source uses past tense for this information - is it still true today?
  • What head tax? Please explain briefly
  • "moved there in the 1921" - missing word?
  • Chronology in the first part of "After World War I" is unclear - did he move to the US before or after becoming an electrician? Before or after running the light plant? If before, when did he return to Canada? Section needs a bit of rearranging/clarifying
  • Which wife produced the children?
  • Being a Canadian veteran isn't necessarily the same thing as being a veteran of the Canadian military
  • "He was proud of his status as the last surviving Canadian World War I veteran" - not supported by the source, and the rest of the article seems to suggest otherwise
  • Did he receive greetings from the Queen for his 107th or 109th birthday?
  • Don't repeat wikilinks, especially not in close proximity
  • In References, be consistent in whether authors are listed first-name-first or last-name-first
  • Elizabeth II ref should be formatted in a manner consistent with the other refs
  • Name publishers consistently - CBC News or CBC.ca? etc
  • Page for refs 5 and 7?
  • Ref 17: if this is a web source, why is there no link or retrieval date?


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 14:25, 23 September 2010 [37].

Everything That Happens Will Happen Today edit

Nominator(s): —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:48, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I put a lot of work into it and it appears to pass all FAC criteria and is consistent with other featured album articles. This article has been GA for over a year and any changes that would be made to it at this point would be relatively minor. I will watch this discussion and make any necessary changes. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:48, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Done I removed the link (it wasn't strictly necessary as a source anyway) and the redirect is from two templates, not the article itself. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:53, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks. Then please fix the templates. Ucucha 19:58, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Never mind, I did it. Ucucha 22:39, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments: I have been through the first 50 or so, and found numerous issues. It will take a long time to get through the rest, so perhaps you would look at these meantime. Brianboulton (talk) 22:10, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Refs 2, 7: Surely this is a primary source?
    • Yes These are primary sources, but the former is a press release for the album (any third-party source would be simply repeating it) and the latter are the album's liner notes; it's hard to imagine any third-party source replicating it or expanding on it.
  • Newspaper titles, e.g. Phoenix New Times should be italicised. Check for others.
    • Done There might still be some, of course, but I'll keep my eyes peeled. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:24, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 11: I think the publisher should be recorded as "Yahoo Music Worldwide". Also 41 and perhaps others
    • Done There are no other sources by this publisher. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:24, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 17: Typo (Phonix)
  • Ref 20 lacks a publisher
  • Ref 24: link is dead
  • Ref 34: "page not found". Same applies to 35 and 36
  • Ref 38: Why is "Beliefnet" a reliable source?
    • Response As stated in Beliefnet, the site contains non-forum content that is written by professionals and is owned by larger media companies (formerly Fox Entertainment Group), so they are a credible source for that content, but not (e.g.) for message board posts. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:24, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Refs 45, 46 and 49: What makes "Leo Abrahams" a reliable encyclopedic source?
  • Ref 50: lacks publisher
  • Ref 51: Format is odd. Annuals are not journals, so "volume=" is inappropriate. The editors, reither than the organisation, should be in the "author" slot.
    • Done Please let me know if this is correct. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:24, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: In the absence of any reponses to the above, it does not seem seem worth my continuing with the long job of checking out the remaining 100-odd. Is this FAC still alive? Brianboulton (talk) 14:44, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I will work on this today. Thanks for your input. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 14:50, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 14:17, 23 September 2010 [38].

Thrud the Barbarian edit

Nominator(s): GDallimore (Talk) 00:00, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... it has received many good tweaks since the last nomination, some responding to specific comments there, some just to improve it having left it alone for two years and come back with fresh eyes. It's about as ready as it's ever going to be. GDallimore (Talk) 00:00, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • I've been searching for something to replace that dead link for a while, and decided the best option was to link to the online version of the rule book. I'd prefer to cite the original paper rulebook, but don't know the publication details. GDallimore (Talk) 10:04, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Each of the non-free images, except perhaps the infobox, should be the subject of critical commentary in the article. Otherwise it's not proper fair use. Stifle (talk) 20:30, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
They are. GDallimore (Talk) 20:31, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, taking a read through. Pop culture seems to struggle to get reviewed here :)

  • "Golden Age" Why caps?
  • "On moving on to art college in Liverpool, Thrud" Thrud went to art college? :P
  • "His work on this story was fully painted, and while considered impressive[21] was also criticised as being forced, confused[21] and muddy.[22]" Perhaps this could be expanded a little? Packing all that into one sentence... Also, direct quotes probably wouldn't hurt.
  • Was the White Dwarf stuff all inked? Could that perhaps be mentioned in the prose?
  • Why was Thrud dropped from White Dwarf?
  • "His new style was also noticed and received positive comments.[1]" Is that the extent of the reviews we have?
  • "a helmet having a pair" Rephrase?
  • "one of the best loved pieces" isn't a very neutral term
  • "and fans remember him as being from the period "before White Dwarf was crap"." Again, not so sure about this
  • I'm not feeling the legacy section- it doesn't seem to be about Thrud.
  • Category:Fantasy comics? Category:Fictional kings? Category:Fictional mercenaries?
  • Sorry, but the reliability of most sources isn't immediately clear- could you please explain? Also, could you double check italics? TRS2, for instance, is italicised in the text butwhy not the references.
    • TRS2?
    • Bulletproof Comics?
    • The Ninth Art?
    • 2000AD Review?
    • 3dtotal?
    • Grand Comics Database?
    • enjolrasworld?
    • GameHobby.net?
    • Forbidden Planet?
    • Strike to Stun?
    • Collecting Citadel Miniatures wiki? (Wikis are always questionable...)
    • Heresy Miniatures?
  • Links in the refs would also be nice- Jervis Johnson, for instance
  • While it looks, at first glance, that there's a lot of non-free content, this is a topic that demands it. File:Thrud miniatures.jpg feels a bit spare- other than that, they're ok. The rationale on the Arnie clone could do with cleaning up- clarify why the image is needed.
  • I note some references are "Smith, John", while others are "John Smith". The way you cite self-published sources is also inconsistent.

Overall, I'm afraid I don't think this is quite there. The reliability of sources is an issue, but the short paragraphs and sections, unreferenced bits and bobs and mid-sentence referencing means that the article doesn't flow perfectly, either. I also question the comprehensiveness here; I couldn't honestly say what it is that is missing, but I do not feel I walk away from this article knowing all about the subject. J Milburn (talk) 00:10, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose on sources, as per above: Few of the online sources appear to be of high quality and reliable. Brianboulton (talk) 23:09, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The sources issue is not major and can be dealt with quite easily in FAC if I'm given more than 24 hours to respond to comments. Please reopen it. GDallimore (Talk) 23:21, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Concerning sources. Many of them are non-mainstream and minor, but that is because they are part of a network of British small, independent press titles. Nevertheless, care has been taken to select only the best sources or to select sources which clearly accurately verify the information in the article. Taking them source by source

TRS2 - online version of a long running small publication review magazine (TRS, The Review Sheet) and part of the bugpowder network, formerly a comics distributor (see British_small_press_comics#The_1990s). Although in blog format, it has a long term editor in the form of Jez Higgins who commissions reviews. Indeed, the particularly review being linked was written by Jez Higgins. This editorial oversight makes it a reliable source particularly in the context that the source is being used for personal opinions about the Thrud comics.

Bulletproof Comics - website has had a significant overhaul, but at the time was a comic book resource under the auspices of editor Matt Yeo who commissioned reviews. This editorial oversight makes it a reliable source particularly in the context that the source is being used for personal opinions about the Thrud comics.

The Ninth Art - website has had a significant overhaul, but at the time was a comic art resource with regular contributors and editorial oversight. This editorial oversight makes it a reliable source particularly in the context that the source is being used for personal opinions about the Thrud comics.

2000AD Review - website is now shut down but for many years posted reviews of every 2000AD issue commissioned by editor Gavin Hanly. Although independent of 2000AD is appears it was supported by Rebellion Developments, the publishers of 2000AD. This official support combined with the editorial oversight makes it a reliable source particularly in the context that the source is being used for personal opinions about the Thrud comics.

3dtotal - the source is an interview with Carl Critchlow and is being used to confirm facts about Carl Critchlow's inspiration, so must be a reliable source in that context.

Grand Comics Database - this site was only being used to provide online confirmation of the contents of published issues of White Dwarf. The references have been rephrased to make White Dwarf the source with the GCD being merely a url as part of the reference.

enjolrasworld - site was being used to provide online confirmation of the contents of published issues of Warrior. Link removed as was a duplicate reference.

GameHobby.net - again, site was being used to provide online confirmation of the contents of published issues of Warrior. The references have been rephrased to make Warrior the source with the site being merely a url as part of the reference.

Forbidden Planet - These were being used merely to provide images of the front cover of the Thrud comics. The references have been rephrased to make the comics the source and to link to FP only as an online image.

Strike to Stun - another defunct website, but at the time provided reviews written by regular commentators under the auspices of editor Natascha Chrobok. This editorial oversight makes it a reliable source particularly in the context that the source is being used for personal opinions about the Thrud comics.

Collecting Citadel Miniatures wiki - the link is to a collection of photos of Thrud miniatures, and is therefore easily confirmed as providing reliable information. In particular, the wiki is only being used to provide a date of production of an early thrud miniature and the source gives its source for that piece of information: it is written on the bottom of the miniature itself.

Heresy Miniatures - the source is being used for information about their own production line and must be a reliable source in that context.

Hope that explains everything. GDallimore (Talk) 12:40, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 14:11, 23 September 2010 [39].

Arado Ar E.381 edit

Nominator(s): WikiCopterRadioChecklistFormerly AirplanePro 19:45, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I have gone through a failed A-class review with WP:MILHIST, where consensus was not garnered, and I feel I have met all the concerns raised there. WikiCopterRadioChecklistFormerly AirplanePro 19:45, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 19:52, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I don't know the FAC process very well, but you might to at least get rid of the citation needed tag by adding in a reference. Also, I don't know much in aircrafts, but is there nothing more to be added in? While there is no set size for a FA article, I think more information should be added in. Derild4921☼ 20:45, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. This article was listed as a GA only a few weeks ago and several concerns were raised during its failed MilHist A-class review that I do not agree have been dealt with. In addition, the story it's telling is rather confused. For instance, "They [the Arado Ar E.381s] probably had only very limited capability against fighters", yet apparently "full production of the aircraft was cancelled before any could be used on the battlefield", therefore they clearly had no capability against fighters, as they never entered service. I'm not even sure after reading this whether any were actually built, as the design details are full of "The pilot would lie in in a prone position", "It was to be powered by a Walter HWK 109-509A-2 engine", and "the aircraft was to be armed with six rockets of an unspecified kind", implying that it never got off the drawing board. To be perfectly honest, I would have failed this article at GAN, never mind FAC. Malleus Fatuorum 20:51, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Malleus. If you've searched all the English sources, you may have to delve into German-language sources, and if those don't hold anything, this may be one of those articles which just doesn't have enough information on it to be able to pass FAC. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 20:56, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose on a prose review. It's fine with me if writers spend their time writing and not learning how to copyedit, but please get help from a copyeditor. I'm doing my best to get copyeditors to help out at SHIPS and MILHIST.

  • (German: Kleinstjäger – "small fighter"): might as well give the literal "smallest fighter", although Germans and military historians might correct me on that. Also, I see the {{lang-de}} template in use a lot, but do we really need to be told that a German fighter had a German name? It seems redundant to me. - Dank (push to talk)
  • jet powered: jet-powered - Dank (push to talk)
  • usage: "use" is more common in this sense - Dank (push to talk)
  • Its intended usage was the interception of American and British bombers after closing the firing distance to a minimum, thus increasing odds of hitting the target.: Wait, what? This sounds as if the fighter is intended to slam into a target ... not likely with a pilot inside. - Dank (push to talk)
  • To enable survival of the interceptor in close pursuit: "enable" means that the interceptor would not survive unless it had that cross section, which isn't true; you mean "increase the odds of" or some synonym. Also, the reader can't understand what the sentence is trying to convey unless you say what danger is being avoided by that design. - Dank (push to talk)
  • cross-section: "cross section" is better. Also, a lot of readers are going to need a link for this. - Dank (push to talk)
  • one-quarter of: "one quarter of", or better yet, "a quarter of". - Dank (push to talk)
  • glide back to the ground and land on skids in unpowered flight: something's redundant in there. - Dank (push to talk)
  • The project continued until the end of the war, but was eventually cancelled due to the collapse of the Third Reich: "The project was cancelled when the Third Reich collapsed." (Passive voice is the best I can do without knowing the subject.) - Dank (push to talk)
  • That was all in the first two paragraphs. - Dank (push to talk) 21:23, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


P.S. I'm just starting to look at the MILHIST FACs now that I have a better idea what I'm doing ... lucky you :) Don't get discouraged; none of us think this can't be a FAC eventually if you find the right sources, and finding a little copyediting help and getting help with translation of a German source or two are not hard with a little effort. - Dank (push to talk) 02:44, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:49, 22 September 2010 [40].

David Carradine edit

Nominator(s): Ishtar456 (talk) 23:38, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I expanded this article substantially several months ago. It passed GA review without any recommendations from the reviewer, in February. It receives between 3-4K hits per day, and it is stable with no edit wars. It is thoroughly researched and the sources are cited. It covers every aspect of the topic and is neutral in POV. Ishtar456 (talk) 23:38, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I added bolded inserted text. --Ishtar456 (talk) 20:28, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I am not liking the use of either of those non-free images at all, and the rationales are completely unenlightening. It's rare we need to use non-free images to show actors in role in the articles on the actors, even if they're only known for a single role. Why do you feel they're needed? J Milburn (talk) 00:03, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am not liking the derogatory way you phrased your comment, but I did remove the offending images.--Ishtar456 (talk) 20:36, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry if that came across as derogatory, it certainly wasn't meant to be. J Milburn (talk) 23:41, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, criterion #3, non-free images used in violation of NFCC (e.g. #3a and #8). Stifle (talk) 20:29, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Images have been removed as we speak.--Ishtar456 (talk) 20:36, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Striking pending review. Stifle (talk) 11:30, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Object many paragraphs are unsourced, including ones related to marital problems and alcohol. Secondly the references are inconsistent witht he formatting of page numbers, abbreviatioin of titles, italics in newspapers, no spacing between commas etc YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:47, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Can you please be move specific about the "many unsourced paragraphs"? I removed one sentence that predated the expansion: "During this time Carradine's alcoholism escalated and he entered alcohol drug rehabilitation". Everything that is there regarding his personal life I wrote, and sourced and I don't really discuss specific marital problems (except one affair which is sourced). All the statements made are cited. So I do not see "many unsourced paragraphs". Please give at least a couple of examples.--Ishtar456 (talk) 19:52, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
and will work on cleaning up citations. --Ishtar456 (talk) 20:01, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Paras 1, 3, 4 in "early successes" and last one in "Kung fu" for instance YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 01:58, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose – Shouldn't be a GA because of a lack of sourcing. How could a wikipedian with 300+ GAN reviews pass this without any comments? Pretty poor I think. Seems as if he wanted to rack up the GAN reviews... Aaroncrick TALK 08:34, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I just removed an unsourced paragraph that was incerted AFTER the GA review. Everything else in that section has been cited somewhere else in the article and I am going to add the citations later in the day. If we could be grown ups we might say "this is something that should be like this instead of that" and leave out all the judgemental insulting crap. Some people wonder why more people don't try to get their article FA-the insults might be one reason.--Ishtar456 (talk) 09:29, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that's a fair comment. I don't know who reviewed it for GA, nor do I need to. Whoever it was, please assume they are editing in good faith. Wackywace converse | contribs 10:20, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh great, the article is already nominated at FAC and you've decided to go ahead and add refs after it has started. It may be cited somewhere else but it's not now. Aaroncrick TALK 11:12, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:49, 22 September 2010 [41].

Lady of Quality edit

Nominator(s): Karanacs (talk) 20:47, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you were running away from a forced marriage, would you take your almost-fiance with you? If you were the heroine of a romance novel, would you turn down the hero's marriage proposal? Join me in exploring the antics showcased in a classic Regency romance. Lady of Quality was the last book written by Georgette Heyer. It's fairly short, but comprehensive–I know of no other research that exists on this book. User:Malleus Fatuorum promoted it to GA earlier this year and did some light copyediting (which gives him the highest edit count - I worked in big chunks), and provided other support during that process. Thanks for taking a look! Karanacs (talk) 20:47, 10 September 2010 (UTC) edited Karanacs (talk) 13:43, 11 September 2010 (UTC) [reply]

  • Support. As Karanacs says, I gave this article a bit of a leathering during its GA review, but it was little more than moving a few commas around. I looked for additional sourcing on critical reviews, but this type of novel tends not to get much scholarly attention, or indeed any critical attention. I was satisfied then, and I'm satisfied now, that this is just about as good an account of one of Georgette Heyer's later novels that's likely to be found anywhere, and that it fully meets the FA criteria. Malleus Fatuorum 21:35, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 22:08, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image review one copyright image with appropriate fair use rationale, no problems Jimfbleak - talk to me? 09:54, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment—I haven't given it a very thorough read-through, but I notice that there are very few internal links. I count 21, which is an unusually low number for an article of this length; I would imagine that for an article about a romance novel taking place in the 19th Century, which has a comprehensive plot summary, there would be a relatively large number of wiki-links. ☻☻☻Sithman VIII !!☻☻☻ 16:33, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Which of the FA criteria demand that an article has a high number of internal links? Malleus Fatuorum 19:02, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I never said any of them did; I just thought it was unusual, so naturally I felt the need to inquire.☻☻☻Sithman VIII !!☻☻☻ 20:29, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • We shouldn't be adding links for the sake of it. What unlinked terms do you think will significantly aid readers' understanding of the topic? Dabomb87 (talk) 20:47, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I trust that it's comprehensive, and I remember (read it before, probably from Malleus' talk page) the prose in this is exceptionally good. A beautifully concise and well-written article. ceranthor 22:10, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - nice work — Rlevse • Talk • 00:45, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment 2c: Might want to change the bibliography page range indicators to "pp." to match your style, similarly Toomey, Philippa (19 October 1972), deserves a "p." Otherwise, beautiful. Fifelfoo (talk) 02:00, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support this is a good article unlike the many crap ones i've seen 86.141.247.236 (talk) 02:15, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:38, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. On a quick read this seems very thin and generic; I see little which differentiates this novel from any of Heyer's later works. Can you get hold of the notes from the Heyer conference held in 2009 (Re-reading Georgette Heyer)? There was a paper on "lesbian anxiety" in Lady of Quality; there's a brief summary here. The plot summary doesn't mention Maria Farlow, a Miss Bates-like character (mentioned Hodge p203) who is one of the unusual features of the novel compared with the usual formula. Also Hodge has some criticisms on the novel's pacing and "one really failed scene" (p202). Espresso Addict (talk) 19:39, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thank you so much for bringing this conference to my attention! I have emailed the professor who organized it (who also happens to have presented the session on this book) to see if any of the papers have been published, and whether I might be able to get a copy of them. I also no longer have a copy of the Hodge book. If I can't get the information from these sources within the next day or two I'll withdraw the nomination. Karanacs (talk) 15:43, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have a copy of the presentation now, but according to the author, it has not been formally published. I've never worked with this type of source, so I've put a question at RSN on whether it would be considered a reliable source. Comments welcome at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Conference_papers. Karanacs (talk) 14:35, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • The RSN discussion appears to have ended [42], and it appears to me that the general thought is that the conference paper should not be included as it has never been published - one would have to email the author to verify the information. I did more searching this weekend and found a university master's thesis that was just published. I'm going to incorporate that information into the article today. Karanacs (talk) 14:30, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral The entire plot section is unreferencedApparently plots aren't sourced.. Sentences like "Rather than marry Ninian, as her guardian wished, Lucilla ran away, and Ninian is escorting her to ensure her safe arrival in Bath" are confusing (tense). "Carleton proposes marriage, but Annis, unwilling to relinquish her independence, refuses" could be restructured to avoid the single word fragment. "As the story opens, Annis Wychwood, a wealthy, beautiful, and intelligent woman, reaches the age of majority, giving her greater control over her personal and financial affairs" reads like a list. "Soon after their arrival, members of the household contract influenza" seems a bit abrupt. Aiken (talk) 14:13, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Plot sections are very frequently unreferenced, as the source for the plot is the work itself. Malleus Fatuorum 14:42, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Oh! I didn't think primary sources were encouraged. I stand corrected. Aiken (talk) 14:56, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • In general they're not of course, but this is an exception. The only time I include citations in a plot summary is if I'm using a direct quotation. Malleus Fatuorum 14:58, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • As it was probably my crappy copyediting during the GA review that introduced the sentences you've identified as being troublesome I felt honour-bound to try and fix them. See what you think now. Malleus Fatuorum 23:00, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • "On the way to her new home Annis meets Lucilla Carleton and Ninian Elmore. Lucilla is running away to Bath to avoid her marriage to Ninian, a match that her guardian is very much in favor of, and Ninian is escorting her to ensure her safe arrival." This reads fine now, but I'm confused with what it says. So Lucilla is running away from marriage, but her proposed husband is taking her? Also, I'm not sure if it's convention, but shouldn't last names be used instead of first? Or is that not applicable when discussing fictional characters? Aiken (talk) 23:08, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Obviously it's not confusing at all, as yes, Lucilla is running away and her proposed husband is escorting her. There's no convention about whether to use first or last names, so long as they're used consistently and unambigously. In this particular case of a romantic novel I think it would jar a little to call the heroine "Wychwood" rather than "Annis". Malleus Fatuorum 23:20, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • I'd have thought if she was running away from marriage, the last person she would want to go with her would be her proposed husband. I'm going to stay neutral on this, per Espresso Addict's points above. Aiken (talk) 23:23, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
            • I think you're starting to lose the plot here Aiken, so to speak. This is a novel, a work of fiction. In this fictional universe Lucilla's proposed husband did escort her to Bath. It's a story. Malleus Fatuorum
              • Yes I know, I'm not stupid. I thought it may have been a copying error, but my bad. Aiken (talk) 23:36, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:49, 22 September 2010 [43].

Air well (condenser) edit

Nominator(s): Gaius Cornelius (talk) 21:48, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because it was a popular article when it appeared in Did You Know, it has already achieved Good Article status and it is a matter of practical importance to people in certain regions of the world. Gaius Cornelius (talk) 21:48, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for the comment. Internet keeps changing! All external links fixed or replaced with alternatives. Sorry, source does not indicate which Titanium oxide it is. Gaius Cornelius (talk) 20:32, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I disambiguated to titanium dioxide based on this source, which appears to be the paper cited in Sharan. {{Nihiltres|talk|edits|⚡}} 04:21, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually, double-checking myself, it looks like the year is off compared to Sharan's citation, but the source I found is certainly talking about the same material, as researched by the same scientists. {{Nihiltres|talk|edits|⚡}} 04:31, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for following through with that checking! Gaius Cornelius (talk) 08:52, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments: Nitpicks:-

  • Ref 9 "Alton" - is this correct? Biblioraphy shows joint authors "Alton Stewart, Bobby" and "Terry A. Howell"
  • Ref 17: not properly formatted. Who is "Klaphake", where is the quote taken from? Why not cite the original source?
  • Ref 37: Acknowledgement where?
  • Ref 53: Incomplete format - only the publisher given. Title, author?
  • Pugsley is the only book with a publisher location. For consistency it's an "all or none" thing, so I'd get rid of this.

Otherwise sources all look OK Brianboulton (talk) 16:53, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • I think I have clarified the above nitpicks. Reference 37 is to the acknowledgment section of the book which has no page number. Gaius Cornelius (talk) 10:37, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. The article is not well-organized. My concerns, in order of severity:

  • This article has information about the history of the technology, the different types, and the applications all jumbled together, making it impossible for the reader to find desired pieces of information. My preferred organization: History for information about how the technology was developed, High-mass collectors/Radiative collectors/Active collectors to describe the current state of each of those technologies and how they differ from each other, and Applications for information about how the technologies are put to use.
  • As per WP:LEAD, the lead section should be a summary of important information about an article. The lead should not introduce new material that is not present in the body of the article. As such, the second paragraph should probably not exist, as dew ponds are not mentioned elsewhere in the article. I suggest relocating this information to the "See Also" section.
  • The hidden subsection International Organization for Dew Utilization should either be merged into a history section or a new major section Organizations should be developed. Perhaps a combination of both, considering that some of the information here relates to Zibold's condenser.
  • I do not understand why there are subsection headings that are set off by semi-colons rather than being the usual continuation of section headers. These are much harder to find than generic section headers because they are not in the TOC and they are smaller.

I will also be conducting a line-by-line prose review, but I will wait until the above comments are addressed and the article is in a more stable state. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 16:03, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Reorganising the text will take a while. Please be patient. Gaius Cornelius (talk) 17:04, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, mate. Ping me here or on my talk page if you need any other input. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 17:33, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:49, 22 September 2010 [44].

Banquo edit

Nominator(s): Wrad (talk) 20:17, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This would be the first Shakespeare character article to reach FA status. Currently a GA. Wrad (talk) 20:17, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—a dab link to Fort William, no dead external links. Ucucha 20:28, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • image review All the images are suitably licensed, one typo fixed in description Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:16, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. This is essentially Banquo (character), & should probably either be expanded or renamed. Whether there was a historical Banquo, and what he might have got up to, needs expansion if it stays as it is. The fictional Banquo is obviously much the better known, and probably qualifies as the "primary meaning", but I don't think fictional characters should usurp even the most obscure real people they are very loosely based on. Also, there's plenty of room for the woodcut from Holinshead and the Fuseli that are at Three Witches, both rather more interesting than the pictures used so far. Johnbod (talk) 22:07, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • On the naming of the article, I can see your side of it. If people think renaming to Banquo (character) makes more sense, that would be an easy change. Expansion doesn't seem like the best move here, since this article is intended to be about the character in Macbeth, not the real Banquo (if he existed).
    • The pictures are a different story. I really like our picture of Banquo as a ghost sitting at the feast in Macbeth's place, and don't think anything at Three Witches could replace it. It is Banquo's most famous scene. On the other hand, the second picture might be worth replacing. Wrad (talk) 22:23, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not suggesting replacing anything? The article has only two images, and tons of space. Johnbod (talk) 22:26, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ah! I guess I misunderstood what you meant by "rather more interesting." Wrad (talk) 22:38, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, One is progress! Johnbod (talk) 04:09, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Is the naming of the article a critical issue or can it be left until after FAC for a move discussion (to avoid messing with links to to various pages and such)? While I haven't looked specifically on the issue of whether there's material on the historical Banquo, I'm fairly sure there will never be an article on him (iff he existed at all, there doesn't appear to be enough data for much original research, much less encyclopedic coverage). I don't particularly care about the naming of the article—above vaguely general esthetic concerns—but neither do I see much value for the project in having a dab page at Banquo whose only link is to Banquo (character) when the character is the clear (snowball) primary meaning. If new research is done, or sources we've missed are found, this article can easily accommodate that information for quite some time before there's a need to split them (and hence decide on which merits pride of place). --Xover (talk) 07:07, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose For an article on such a small subject, the writing is generally not great. This passage is especially problematic: "In Shakespeare's day, Banquo was thought to be a direct ancestor of the King James I. However, Banquo's Stuart descent was revised in the 19th century, when it was discovered that the portion of James' ancestry connected to Banquo, the Fitzalans, might plausibly have descended from a Breton family instead.[2] Whether or not Banquo, Thane of the Scottish province of Lochaber, actually existed remains in doubt."
Why "the" King?
You can't "revise" a "descent".
the next bit is still iffy, and must a source from 1884 be used?
Where does Lochaber come in, and what is the source for this? It has never remotely been a "province", and at this time was a parish at best.

There are numerous careless style points: "In Chronicles Banquo ...", "honor", no link to Cawdor, and so on. "Bradley, Andrew. Shakespearean Tragedy. Boston: Adamant Media Corporation, 2003" - he is always known as A. C. Bradley, and the book was first published in 1904, and has countless editions, which should be indicated. I think you were probably too quick to shorten the lead, which did meet the WP:LEAD suggested length, & I imagine now doesn't. But generally the prose just has an ungainly feel, & needs a good bit of polishing; a last example: "Banquo's ability to live on in different ways is another oppositional force, in this case to Macbeth's impending death." - meaning what exactly? Johnbod (talk) 04:09, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • This is extremely difficult to respond to since everything is all mashed together, but here goes. We can just remove the "the." It was left over from an earlier fix. You can, in fact, revise a descent. British monarchs are historically very good at doing that. People have been revising history for ages. I don't see a problem with using a 19th century source to cite something that happened in the 19th century.
It's a matter of vocubulary - it is the theory or whatever of his descent that is revised.
    • I see the point with your later source worries with Bradley.
    • We can fix little things, but I'm not sure what to do about an "ungainly feel."
I can see that; get someone else to copyedit it.
    • I thought that the sentence after the one you are quoting explained what was meant clearly enough. Wrad (talk) 17:58, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, it doesn't. Johnbod (talk) 01:55, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yep. Looks like it's a case of writer's blindness. I thought it had been copyedited, but maybe my memory is playing tricks on me. Someone besides me better look at it. Wrad (talk) 04:55, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment—2c good, Fixed it myself, fn1, 2 and 4 were out of style. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:32, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm not sure I understand this comment. How are these footnotes out of style? Wrad (talk) 02:19, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Transactions is a journal, thus in your style for other journals [#Vol].[#Number] ie 66.1, thus Vol. 3 becomes 3. The rest of your page references use p. and pp. not pg. and pgs., thus I corrected the ones using pg. and pgs. Fifelfoo (talk) 03:49, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Oh. I was looking for what was wrong, but I guess you had it fixed already. Thanks! Wrad (talk) 04:10, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - not a bad article, just a few concerns. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:34, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • In my opinion the lead is too long given the length of the article
  • A few repetitious phrases - "in order to", "a variety of", etc. Try to cut down on these - it'll help the article flow better
  • "Three Witches" or "the Three Witches"?
  • You should explain what the phrase "co-captain" means here
  • "This can be interpreted as Banquo being a silent accomplice to Macbeth's early crimes" - phrasing is rather vague
    • Taken out when lead was shortened. Wrad (talk) 03:14, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Banquo's Stuart descent was revised in the 19th century, when it was discovered that the Fitzalans might plausibly have descended from a Breton family instead" - this sentence doesn't make sense as written. Who were the Fitzalans? Was Banquo himself a Stuart, or their ancestor?
  • "In either case, Scotland celebrates his fame" - need pronoun agreement with previous sentence, and this and the following sentence don't fit in context - perhaps move to a different section/paragraph?
    • This really doesn't fit anywhere and I'm not sure what naming a tourist trap really adds to anything, so I took it out. Wrad (talk) 03:26, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In any case, Shakespeare manages to separate Banquo from the king's murder by making it a secret of which Banquo is largely unaware" - phrasing
  • Is this the Barroll source? If so, please cite chapter author and/or clarify that Barroll is the editor
  • I would recommend sourcing the "Role in the play" section more thoroughly, and keeping the tone a bit more encyclopedic (although your topic does encourage flowery language!)
    • Added some refs to sort the scenes out. Wrad (talk) 03:38, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Tone adjusted. Wrad (talk) 03:53, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does Macbeth receive the title of "Cawdor" or "Thane of Cawdor"?
    • I took this out as it is more about Macbeth and less relevant to Banquo. Wrad (talk) 03:38, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • In general, try to keep the article's tone more academic
    • I'm not sure what you're referring to. Wrad (talk) 03:26, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "cursed thoughts that nature / gives way to in repose!" - source?
  • "as soon as it vanishes" - phrasing makes it unclear what "it" refers to here
  • "Enter Ghost of Banquo, and sits in Macbeth's place." - source?
  • Be consistent in using numerals or words when naming centuries


  • Nomination withdrawn. If someone with a lot of time on his hands wants to dig up better sources, go for it. Wrad (talk) 04:16, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • So far all the issues brought up appear manageable, and there's no particular hurry (a typical FAC is open for, what, weeks?). Why not stick with it? I plan to help out as much as I can, and I think this article really has a shot. --Xover (talk) 07:53, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I just have my own time constraints in real life and won't be able to deal with the source issues brought up. If you want to help out with that, maybe we can deal with it. Wrad (talk) 17:40, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'm looking for a more modern source for the bit about the Stuarts' ancestry now, but it'll be a bit challenging as I don't think anyone has really addressed it specifically after Chalmers assigned the Fitzallans a Breton ancestry in 1809 (iirc). But even if we can't dig up a more recent source for it it'd probably be ok to just remove the relevant sentence; it's most relevant to a postulated historical Banquo (which, as far as I can tell, nobody much is suggesting ever existed) and, more importantly, to an article on James I and the Stuarts, than to Banquo in Macbeth (i.e. this article). Other than that the concerns appear to be chiefly related to prose, and that's nothing that can't be fixed by a thorough copyedit, which I'll be happy to help out with. Again, we're in no hurry here; as long as manage to address the concerns brought up by the reviewers in a reasonable time there's no need to obsessively refresh the review page for hours each day, jumping to fix every little point in minutes (as I know I tend to do when I'm excited about a GA/FA nom). The FAC reviewers may be editor-eating meanies, who welcome proud editors in and spit shivering neurotic wrecks back out, but they're usually patient editor-eating meanies. :-) And if worse come to worse, and we ultimately fail to pass as FA this time, the reviews will have helped improve the article immensely in the mean time, and we'll know what the weak points are that need to be fix before a second nom. In other words, don't sweat it; let's just address what we can in the time we have available and see how far that gets us. As I mention above, I think the worst problem is the prose and that's entirely fixable. Anyways, unless you're still sure you want to withdraw the nomination (in which case it'll be closed, and nobody will waste time doing a review that won't be addressed), I suggest we move this discussion to the review page's Talk page to avoid cluttering up the review, and then dig in to do the work. --Xover (talk) 18:17, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I certainly don't think this nom is hopeless, or I would have said so (maybe - well anyway I don't). But the prose does need a good going through. Johnbod (talk) 01:51, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I just didn't think I could handle everything timewise, but if Xover is willing to help we can keep moving ahead. Wrad (talk) 04:43, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question Is there any information on the adaptations as to how they depicted Banquo's killing. The original Shakespeare prose doesn't seem to specify anything, but on some movie I was shown in English he was hacked in the back with an axe. YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 01:32, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I really haven't seen much on that. The most focused-on murders in the play, so far as I have seen, are those of Duncan and of Macduff's son. Wrad (talk) 04:43, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • There are certainly a wide variety of ways adaptors have portrayed it; for instance, when you've adapted Macbeth to a nineties gangland setting the ambush and murder is likely to involve modern pistols and such. However the scene is a minor (if pivotal) one, and the critical editions of the play or journal articles etc. are likely to sum up the entire movie adaptation in at most a paragraph or two (often as little as a sentence). IOW, we could probably add a description of this, but that would be original research. The focus of the sources overall is on the character's role in the play (i.e. as a foil to Macbeth), various psychoanalytical readings (often really discussing Macbeth and talking about Banquo mainly because the former is reacting to the latter), and to some degree the historicity, or lack thereof, of Banquo. At best we'd be able to source some descriptions of how Banquo was changed overall for the adaptations (i.e. he might be described as the crime lord's younger cousin or some such), but even for that we'd pretty much be scraping the bottom of the barrel I think (and it'd be the movie adaptations, based on reviews and IMDB and such; productions and adaptations for the stage simply aren't covered in this aspect and level of detail in the reliable sources). --Xover (talk) 06:48, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yes, I tried to avoid using descriptions of Banquo in adaptations not discussed by more scholarly sources. Wrad (talk) 17:56, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. This article reads well in general. I don't see a reason for it to be renamed; even if the supposed historical Banquo merits his own article, Shakespeare's Banquo remains much more prominent and therefore the primary topic. But I do see a few problems (some quite minor):

  • "the "greater honor" Duncan mentions Macbeth as possessing"—actually, it is Ross who says this, although in a message from Duncan.
    • I will leave it the way it is, then, rather than say something convoluted like "the 'greater honor' Duncan mentions Macbeth as possessing in a message delivered by Ross." Wrad (talk) 21:29, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Not convinced. I don't see obvious evidence in the text why we should suppose these to have been Duncan's literal words, and the Amneus paper cited (part of which happens to be available on Google Books) also mentions that "When ... Ross brings Duncan's "thanks and payment" to Macbeth he says:". Ucucha 15:50, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Several of the cited sources are available online (e.g., on JSTOR), and should have links.
    • I thought the policy was not to link to websites requiring a subscription. Am I mistaken? Wrad (talk) 21:25, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Per WP:CITE: "A citation ideally includes a link or ID number to help editors locate the source". Per WP:ELREG: "A site that requires registration or a subscription should not be linked unless the website itself is the topic of the article (see Official links below) or the link is part of an inline reference (see Wikipedia:Citing sources) ... This guideline does not restrict linking to websites that are being used as sources to provide content in articles" (emphasis mine). Nikkimaria (talk) 23:37, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am not sure whether the article represents the full range of available scholarship. Although many distinct sources are cited, Banquo has accrued a rather large amount of scholarship as a fairly prominent character in one of Shakespeare's most famous plays—"Banquo" is mentioned 1494 times in JSTOR, for example—and there may well be important ideas there that are not in the article. I looked at a few of the JSTOR articles, and they do contain things this article is missing—JSTOR 2873281, for example, stresses Banquo's observations of nature as another contrast with Macbeth. There is a balance between being too concise and going overboard with details, but I'm not yet convinced this article has handled that the right way.

Ucucha 20:39, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • After going over it again, I do, I think, vaguely remember reading that article. I think my instincts towards not including it were probably motivated by the kind of thing you're talking about (too many details). In general, if the things I'm reading start repeating themselves again and again, I focus on those things that repeat and include them. This way, the major points are covered comprehensively, though some repetitive sources will be left out. This article focuses on one particular line of Banquo's that is already mentioned in our article in a slightly different context. After reading it again, I can see it probably could add something to the article in a brief sentence.
    • I scoured JSTOR as I was writing this article, and I doubt that I missed much. I would caution that the fact that Banquo is mentioned 1494 times in JSTOR is not a true indication of what kind of scholarship is available about Banquo. Macbeth is a very famous play. Many things are written about it, but minor characters such as Banquo are normally only mentioned in passing. Scholars very much prefer to talk about Macbeth, Lady Macbeth, or the Three Witches. The actual number of articles talking about Banquo in a substantial way is significantly smaller, and the number of those articles talking about him in a new or unique way is smaller still. For a very brief example, see the 10th item down on the search, which only has two very passing references to Banquo and really adds nothing new to this article. As these searches typically list items with the most references first, this is an indicator of the kinds of sources the vast majority of those 1400 are. Wrad (talk) 21:09, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • You have undoubtedly read more of the literature than I have, and your explanation is sensible. Still, the article is fairly short, and there certainly seems room for ideas like Banquo's love of nature. Ucucha 15:50, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Well, the article you mention doesn't actually argue that Banquo loves nature; it makes the point that Banquo's mode of speech is naturalistic and conrete rather than supernatural and abstract. When he remarks to Fleance that “There's husbandry in heaven, / Their candles are all out” it has been previously argued (even assumed) that he is mirroring Macbeth's earlier plea to dark spirits to hide his deeds in darkness, and that he means the candles are (blown) out and the heavens are dark. The article mentioned argues that Banquo tends to speak of what he sees around him in fairly straightforward descriptive terms; so this quote probably should be taken to mean that there's a higher power (i.e. God) looking down on human affairs and that all the stars currently shining in the sky are a sign of this (IOW, he's describing a clear starry night sky). But it fits in fairly well where we use the quote so I'll see if I can't work it in as a counter-point to the argument that Macbeth has literally darkened the sky in the relevant section. --Xover (talk) 01:18, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:49, 22 September 2010 [45].

Juwan Howard edit

Nominator(s): Finetooth (talk · contribs), TonyTheTiger (talk · contribs)

I am nominating this for featured article because this is a great article with a lot of detail. I have finally gotten a good copyedit from Finetooth after having added a lot of encyclopedic content. TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:10, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We ran into one problem as far as citing encyclopedic content when we realized that he is married, but there are no good sources regarding this. We are using questionable sources, but the fact isnot likely to be challenged and I was not sure what to do.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:15, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is also one dab issue with template defaulting to Charlotte Hornets rather than New Orleans Hornets. I am not sure how to handle this template use.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:32, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I will add WP:ALT to the final image when the template is reformatted.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:38, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments
    • The "other endeavors" section should be called "film career". Also, there is no ref at the end of the section. ~EDDY (talk/contribs/editor review)~ 00:36, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • This references his marriage, as for a reliable source. ~EDDY (talk/contribs/editor review)~ 00:48, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I am unable to view that source. Does it mention his wife, kid and marriage date? what about marriage location? meeting at Alonzo's party?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:53, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • If you google "juwan howard wardally" on news archive search, the second result (the link above) yields the following result: "Juwan Howard 29 a sixfoot nineinch forward for the Denver Nuggets just bought a ... getaway for Howard and his 27yearold bride the former Jenine Wardally of ..." This says that Howard married Wardally, their marriage was in 2002 (the year of the article), and that she was 27 when they wedded, all important information to cover. If you found the entire article at, say, a library, you might find stuff on his wedding, the reception, the honeymoon, etc.
      • Similarly, "juwan howard jace" on Google News Archive has two interesting results. The snippet from this says "Denver Nuggets forward Juwan Howard apologized to his teammates Friday ... ``I caught it from my little son, said Howard, referring to 13-month-old Jace, ..." This article was written in November 2002, so Jace was born in October 2001, before the marriage. Interesting.
      • The fourth result, http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=MH&s_site=miami&p_multi=MH&p_theme=realcities&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=11A50587EDB0C700&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM mentions "Juwan Howard now with the Minnesota Timberwolves has listed his fivebedroom ... The Howards who have two sons Jace 5 and Jett 3 still own a condo at Three ..." So he had another kid that wasn't even mentioned in the wiki article? I'm starting to doubt the comprehensiveness and sourcing of the article, despite its length. Are there any other glaring omissions? ~EDDY (talk/contribs/editor review)~ 00:51, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • In truth missing children might be an issue for a holder of public office, but for an NBA player it is probably par for the course. For this type of subject, the children become consequential if they show promise of being professional athletes. You are sort of basing your objection on an afterthougth. The encyclopedic content for this article is his career path. His family info is only of mild interest.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:41, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • Wait, why would a public officeholder he held to a differant standard than a basketball player? While obviously his only clame to fame is his basketball career, a featured article should, at the very least, mention each of his kids. These are important events in Howard's life. He is not a basketball machine; he is a living breathing person. ~EDDY (talk/contribs/editor review)~ 22:13, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
            • NBA basketball players have a high propensity to have a lot of Baby mama that are hard to keep track of and sort of pop up out of the woodwork.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:09, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
              • While we do not need to keep track of every one of Howard's relationships, I'd say ones with children involved and marriages are pretty important. ~EDDY (talk/contribs/editor review)~ 01:24, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
                • While I can make a pretty solid promise to include all marital relations, parental is not really something I would want to put my reputation on. He is a balla and you never know. Of course, I will attempt to address any kids the are known in the public eye, but that is all I can promise.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 01:43, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • No refs for his career stats? ~EDDY (talk/contribs/editor review)~ 00:48, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
    • So his parents were not married then? It should be made explicit
    • In the early years, there is no indication of what his role as a player is apart from two words in the lead. If he has always been a fwd then it needs to be explained.
    • His playing style and technqiue has no section, strengths and weaknesses. Why? There is only one sentence from his uni days, but things could have changed. YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:24, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Can you point out a couple of articles that have exemplary playing style sections?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:03, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • P.S. did you notice the following text in the article "Howard provided the Mavericks with a back-to-the-basket player who moved into the starting power-forward position, enabling Dirk Nowitzki to play small forward and Bradley to play center.".--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:49, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I have added a second sentence to that that reads "' At the time, he was still regarded as a versatile offensive player who could "take advantage of smaller defenders in the paint and then stretch his bigger defenders outside" in addition to being a solid rebounder."--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:03, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Playing style sections are the norm, as far as cricket articles go, eg Wilfred Rhodes, Wally Hammond, Douglas Jardine, Sam Loxton, and every other general biog I can remember and most GAs too, excluding female cricketers who are shunned by mainstream writers and only have scorecards. YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 02:07, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • Although I have never written a basketball FA, I have written an American football FA (Tyrone Wheatley), a bunch of basketball GAs (Manny Harris, DeShawn Sims, Evan Turner, Demetri McCamey, E'Twaun Moore, Albert White (basketball), off the top of my head) and a couple dozen American football GAs and never seen one or been asked about one. Mostly these are composed of athletic chronologies. I tend to probably have more detailed preprofessional text than most in my articles, but never had any request for anything resembling a playing style. Since most people are star players the style is implied generally by statistical accomplishments.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:32, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • Have you seen one in a basketball FA?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:34, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
            • Nope, but a lot of North American sports articles are garbage and wipped up as quickly as possible, without looking at the finer details. Aaroncrick TALK 07:57, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
              • Are you suggesting this article with 200+refs was just whipped up?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 08:04, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
                • Nope, but on this occasion, there must be stuff in those 200+ refs that will stay stuff about his playing style - at least more than what you have currently. IMHO, this article may not be comprehensive. Aaroncrick TALK 08:15, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
                  • As I recall skimming all the content that I have about him the Dallas article jumped out in the back of my mind. There is another mention probably about him being an above average defender. I am not sure if I can find which one it was. I'll see what I can do. Typically, a basketball FA would only note a players defensive skills who has actually been selected to the NBA All-Defensive team. Thus, when I read the mentioned fact, I discarded it as too low a level of significance unless he was really one of the best. I have not come across any material that says something like "He prefers to got to his left in one-on-one isolation" or "He is a good help defender" or "He likes to work the pick and roll". It might be out there somewhere, but as far as the type of meaty content to fill in a playing style section, I have not seen much other than the Dallas article and stuff about his college playing style. Admittedly, of the articles in the archives at the bottom, I might have only scanned 10% of them, but given the amount that I have read, I would have like to have come across more extensive descriptions before creating a separate playing style section. I will give it another look though.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:12, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have just created the Juwan_Howard#Scouting_report section.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:16, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Very good, thankyou. Aaroncrick TALK 02:26, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments: Nitpicks:-

Otherwise sources look good. Brianboulton (talk) 09:46, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: I've just looked at the lead and first few paragraphs so far.

  • "he became the first player to graduate on time with his class after leaving college early to play in the NBA."
    • Could you explain the context or significance of this?
    • Why did this not usually happen?
      • Most players who enter the NBA early are suddenly making millions of dollars a year and don't feel the need to continue doing their coursework along with their classmates since many people view college as a path to a job. Once you have the multimillion dollar job, why keep doing the classes.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:06, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • How was he able to?
      • The source is sparse. I know from personal knowledge as a fan of Michigan that news stories reported that he used a laptop while traveling. I don't have access to Michigan newspapers. I will try to google news some details.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:06, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Could some of these explanations be added to the article? I think it would help.
I added some more. The paragraph seems quite meaty to me now, but let me know if you want to see even more added.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:47, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Paragraph is fine. It may need copy-editing in places. Could a sentence be added to the lead to the effect of "he became the first player to graduate on time with his class after leaving college early to play in the NBA ... , as most players did not feel the need to attend classes." Or something. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:11, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Although he continued to be a productive starter, he never again performed at an All-Star level, and near the end of his contract he was traded at the NBA trade deadline twice to make salary cap room." Very long sentence. Also, the begining of the sentence reads as if the previous sentences have talked about how good he was. But if I've read it right, it has only mentioned three seasons and has not really said how good he was or how successful. And what is a "productive" starter?
Thank you. I split the sentence in half to make two shorter sentences. I think the $100 million contract is sufficient evidence of his success. A productive starter is one who scores points or otherwise contributes to the team. Not sure what else you are looking for here.Finetooth (talk) 02:45, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry if I'm not clear. I think it would be better to say how he was productive, i.e. how did he contribute. Maybe the lead isn't the place for it, but as I said below, I don't think the lead gives a clear picture of how good he is/was. --Sarastro1 (talk) 07:40, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sarastrol, I don't mean to be rude. The current WP:LEAD has the following text "After one season as an All-Rookie player and a second as an All-NBA performer. . .During his first 5 seasons in the NBA, he averaged 19.3 points per game. . ." Any basketball fan knows very well how good he was. Those two phrases may not mean much to you, but anyone who follows basketball understands very clearly how good he was. Anything more would be an overstatement or overemphasis. The lead properly balances his peak and his present state pretty well, IMO.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 08:26, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So, can I just establish that this is not written with the general reader in mind but only for basketball fans? If so, I do not feel that I can support it (which I would like to, to be honest, as it seems comprehensive). IMO, FAs should be written with the general reader in mind, and it seems that most of them are. And "any basketball fan" may understand this, but is that enough for FA? Obviously, the entire rules and structure of the sport don't need explaning in depth, but there are points where further brief explanations would make it more accessible for everyone. --Sarastro1 (talk) 11:17, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Tony, it might help to add a comparison stat or two if you have them handy. I'm thinking maybe after "19.3 points a game" something like "X points is the NBA average" would help. Or after "All-Rookie player", maybe something like "Only X rookies out of Y (Z percent) make the All-Star team each season." This would put Howard's accomplishments into a quantitative perspective that any reader would understand without knowing anything about the NBA. Comparisons like this should go into the relevant places in the main text and then could be included in the lead. Finetooth (talk) 21:32, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 2010, he is entering his 17th season in the NBA, including 5 for playoff teams": This suggest he played five separate seasons for a different type of team called a playoff team. I assume it means that in five seasons, his teams reached the playoffs?
You are right, and your construction is more clear. I adopted it. Finetooth (talk) 02:53, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Howard had a successful career at Chicago Vocational Career Academy where he became a 1991 Parade and McDonald's All American and a member of the National Honor Society". Successful how? What did he do there? And while the last items are linked, they make the sentence very bumpy. Could a few words be added to say what they are to make the sentence flow a bit?
Yes. I revised to "Howard attended Chicago Vocational Career Academy, where he was named a 1991 All-American basketball player by Parade magazine and won McDonald's All American honors in a national tournament for boys and girls. He was also chosen for the National Honor Society, which recognizes achievements in scholarship, leadership, service, and character." Finetooth (talk) 18:13, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "By his sophomore year, he was already expected to be a 1991 blue chip recruit." Seems a bit pointless. If it is necessary to talk about being a "blue chip recruit" (which seems to be an unnecessary term to introduce here), he either was or he wasn't. Why say what he was expected to be? May be better to say that he showed potential, or was expected to be successful, or high hopes were expressed?
    • It is not the case that either he was or he wasn't. What this is saying is that over two years in advance of his senior season recruiting, expectations were high that he would be one of the top recruits at that point two years into the future. The term, which is linked, is a common term in American sports. If you are foreign, it may be lost on you, but suffice it to say it is not random jargon because it has a substantial linked article.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:16, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I revised to include a clarifying phrase: "By his sophomore year, he was already expected to be a 1991 blue chip recruit, highly prized by college basketball coaches." Does this make the claim more clear? Finetooth (talk) 18:24, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, thanks. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:11, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He was regarded as one of the best sophomores in the Chicago metropolitan area." Says who? Who thought so?
    • The following sentence, which you mention below says "He was the only sophomore named by the league coaches to the 20-man, 1988–89 All-Chicago Public School League squad as a second-team member." I think if we address your concerns on that sentence, this will be resolved.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:43, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*"He was the only sophomore named by the league coaches to the 20-man, 1988–89 All-Chicago Public School League squad as a second-team member." Long and a bit clumsy. What is this squad?

  • "The summer after his sophomore year, the 6-foot-8-inch (2.03 m) center, Howard, ...": Why is his height forced into this sentence? And "Howard" is unnecessary.
    • When discussing high school basketball players, they are typically still growing and contemporary height measurements are valuable to the reader. Howard removed though.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:51, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK. --Sarastro1 (talk) 07:40, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...attended the Nike Academic Betterment and Career Development (ABCD) camp, which was held annually in Princeton, New Jersey, during the late 1980s,[9] where he was matched against the 7-foot-4-inch (2.24 m) Shawn Bradley." This makes for a very long sentence. Could be tightened up, e.g. "... during the late 1980s [what years?] attended the annual Nike Academic Betterment and Career Development (ABCD) camp in Princeton, New Jersey. While there, he was matched against the 7-foot-4-inch (2.24 m) Shawn Bradley."
I split the sentence in two but retained the existing explanation for the dates as well as Howard's height, which is important because he was considerably shorter than Bradley. Finetooth (talk) 04:38, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Could this be made explicit? It is not immediately obvious that this is why the info is there. --Sarastro1 (talk) 07:40, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I added "despite having his shots blocked several times by the much taller Bradley" to the subsequent sentence (which also contains the first of the problematic uses of "big men". I hope this makes more clear that Howard excelled even against players with a height advantage. Finetooth (talk) 17:46, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, that clears it up nicely and "big men" sits a little better now it is defined. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:11, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "There he established himself as one of the best junior big men in the country despite having his shots blocked several times by Bradley." This reads like having shots blocked by Bradley meant he could not be one of the best players in the country . And "best junior big men" sounds jargony and clumsy.
Not sure what would be better. He was a junior in high school, and he was big. Size is very important in basketball. Finetooth (talk) 04:43, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My main problem with this is the part about "despite having his shots blocked..." I'm not sure "big man" belongs in an encyclopedia, and if it is a common term, maybe it could be linked in some way. Personally I think "tall players" or even "big players" sounds less informal. However, I'm not too bothered if it is that common. --Sarastro1 (talk) 07:40, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Listen to an NBA or college basketball broadcast. "Big man" is a common term. See below.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:50, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Sarastro1. I changed the sentence to read: "At this camp, Howard established himself as one of the best junior-year big men (tall basketball players) in the country despite having his shots blocked several times by the much taller Bradley." I'm hoping that this makes "junior" more clear, makes the importance of the height difference more explicit, and (knock on wood) makes "big man" more meaningful. It is an odd specialized term that might literally be taken to mean a fat guy or hulking brute uninvolved in sports. :-) Finetooth (talk) 17:32, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy enough with this now. If I was been nit-picky, I might still say that he could not be one of the best if his shots were blocked (i.e. as if that by itself would stop him). And as I said, "big man" sits a bit better now. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:11, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Involved in controversy for receiving a second pair of sneakers, he was sent home early on the last day of the six-day camp." What??? This needs expanding and explaining.
    • I did not want to give WP:UNDUE weight to an insignificant hiccup in his career. It is pretty clear that he got sent home for an infraction of getting a second pair of shoes at the camp. It is not much more major of a story than that. What are you looking for here.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:54, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Could we resolve this one by deleting all mention of the sneakers on grounds that it's even less than a hiccup, and the article is already quite long? Finetooth (talk) 17:50, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fine by me. Although it sounded quite interesting! :) And Tony, with the greatest respect, I'm not sure the words "controversy for receiving a second pair of sneakers" is "pretty clear". I doubt most people realise it is illegal to own two pairs of shoes of any type. :) But seriously, if it is staying in it should be made clear why it is controversial. All it needs is "a second pair of shoes was not permitted" (which sounds odd to me, but I'm not a basketballer. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:11, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll leave this one for Tony to decide. I'm the expert on comma splices; he's the expert on basketball. I don't actually know who gave Howard the sneakers or why it would upset anyone." Finetooth (talk) 21:12, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think sneakergate has more detail than necessary, but the whole story is in the article now.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:18, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He also participated in the Bill Cronauer (B/C) camp in Rensselaer, Indiana, which was attended by more than 100 college coaches and where he became ranked as one of the top 10 underclassmen in the country." Long sentence. What is an underclassman? Ranked by who? What is the significance of this?
  • "Howard attended other camps that summer and had a goal of surpassing Deon Thomas as the best big man in the state." What camps? Who is Deon Thomas (I know it's linked, but a few words would suffice to say why this is important)? Big man again.
    • Big man is common basketball lingo. It is common for tall players to play on the front line together and neither officially being the center. Howard eventually moved from center to power forward, both of which are big man positions. Are you averse to the article retaining this common term. It is actually unnatural to me to replace big man with something like front line player.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:08, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
See above. If big man is a common term, I'll let it go but would prefer it not to be there as it sounds informal. --Sarastro1 (talk) 07:40, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Will my addition of "big men (tall basketball players)" on the first use suffice? Finetooth (talk) 17:53, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Covers it nicely, I struck the comment. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:11, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1994, Howard was drafted a full round ahead of Thomas." Important because...? Again, we need to know who Thomas was.
On the contrary, I am a sports fan and quite familiar with many sports articles. However, I have only a passing knowledge of basketball and found it hard to follow the beginning of this article (although the rest looks clearer at a quick glance). Most FAs (and GAs for that matter) that I have seen do not use too much jargon so that the general reader can follow them. As a fan, what is not confusing to you may not be understood by others. It only needs the addition of a few words and phrases here and there. --Sarastro1 (talk) 07:40, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The lead does not really establish how or why he was good, but mentions lots about his decline. More on the peak would be good. There is a lot of linking which is distracting, and the article seems to use a lot of jargon which makes it hard to follow for a non-expert who is not prepared to follow every link. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:54, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In terms of how good he was, I am wavering about adding that he averaged 7.9 rebounds a season for his first five years or about 7.5 for his first 10 seasons. I just don't see it as a WP:LEAD-worthy fact. I grew up reading the sports page and the jargon seems natural to me. Aside from the term "big man", I am not sure what you mean. I am always willing to listen to suggestions on delinking because I am a heavy linker. I don't know that expanding this article by teaching basketball terms to the reader would be the proper thing to do, but if you have specific problems, I can attempt to address them.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:09, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –

  • High school: "the Michigan recruiting class was considered to be the top in the nation." My first thought when reading this was that something should come after "top". However, if you go with "best in the nation" instead, I don't think any additional words would be an improvement.
  • College career: Should final four be capitalized (NCAA version)? I think it should, given that the U.S. sports media consistently does so.
  • Capitalize major league baseball. I'm sure of this one.
  • "When the 31–4 Wolverines were matched up against 33–4 the 1992–93 Tar Heels in the championship game". Flip 33–4 and "the".
  • De-capitalize National in "United States National basketball team".
  • Washington era: Comma needed in the middle of "10-year $30 million".
  • "Cheaney, a swingman from Indiana University, veteran point guards Chapman, MacLeon, Cheaney, Mitchell Butler and Scott Skiles were expected to provide solid perimeter play." Cheaney is repeated, and an "and" should be placed before the point guard list.
    • Since they are not all point guards and I incorrectly summarized the secondary source, I chopped the sentence down.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:36, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This was not enough for the Bullets to make the playoffs despite its ninth consecutive losing season." Don't think "its" should be used following a plural team nickname. There are several things you can do, from making it "their" to changing the team name to Washington.
  • Typo in "In addition to signing free agents Murry and Williams". The first player should be Murray.
  • Don't think the Wizards need to be linked before almost all seasons, unless the links went to the team's individual seasons. That doesn't seem to be the case, though.
    • They are nominally linked via a template that will go to the season articles that are expected. This is superior to redlinking the season articles, IMO.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:42, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • 2001–04: What game was Howard ejected from? Also, did the league suspend him from any future games? Giants2008 (27 and counting) 02:43, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:49, 22 September 2010 [48].

Saw VI edit

Nominator(s): Mike Allen 21:04, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... I've have been working on this article for over six months. It passed GA in March and had a peer review in July-August. Most concerns in the peer review were, lack of images (I finally got a free image of the director), and problems with prose. I had an independent copyeditor go through the article. Another concern was lack of offline sources. I managed to track down the issue of Fangoria that featured the film, but wasn't successful in finding anything else offline--and probably won't anytime soon. This is also my first FA and I will probably not have help fulfilling reviewers' concerns. Mike Allen 21:04, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 22:43, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image review One appropriate FU, two retouched self-made, OK, Jimfbleak - talk to me? 19:10, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Is the "sequel" section still important? I imagine it was just the base of the current Saw 3D article and the information could be summed up in one or two sentences in reception. --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 00:34, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hi. Actually I just wrote that section yesterday (and used some refs from the Saw 3D article). I've read where the Film Project may remove the "Proceeded by" and "Followed by" parameters in the film infobox. I may have misunderstood though. Still, I believe anything in the infobox should be mentioned in the prose. With that said, I don't disagree with moving it into the reception section. Mike Allen 01:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I want to ensure that the film article is as comprehensive as possible, so I ask FAC reviewers who have access to subscription-only databases like JSTOR to check for coverage of Saw VI and provide them here. Existing references look good, but not all content will be available online. Erik (talk | contribs) 16:35, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I got no results at Film Literature Index. They finally turned off my student ID since I graduated (took them long enough), so I couldn't access any other databases. :( Anyway, here's at least one that has been searched...but there are a ton of others.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 22:28, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I haven't seen this one yet, so I'm refraining from really reading the article in-depth. But, at a glance I do have a couple of questions.
  1. Shouldn't the sequel info be at Saw (franchise), and not on this article? Typically, once you get into multiple films, all sequel info is intially mentioned on the original's article and then subsequenly on a film series/franchise page. Technically, any film after numero uno is always a sequel to that film, and not a sequel to the sequel - even when it continues a storyline started in a sequel.
  2. Can we legitimately say this article is comprehensive if we haven't used anything from the audio tracks on the DVDs? Maybe I missed them, but I couldn't find anything in the sources listing their use and I find it hard to imagine that with 2 full tracks that neither covers anything new that could be included in this article.
  3. Image placement. You're infobox image is your first, so the next one should be on the left side, the quotebox on the right, and the last image on the left (where it is currently). As the MOS for images says to cascade the sides for those types of things.

Just a couple of things. I don't want to ruin the film for myself by reading details. :( Sorry.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 19:28, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1. That makes sense. I just added the section before I nominated the article, like I said above, I thought everything listed in the infobox should be included in prose, somewhere.
2. I rented the DVD once it was released in January hoping to be able to add something useful to the article... but was disappointed. I listened to both commentaries and remember mostly trivia. The only useful thing that came out of them is on the Saw 3D article (and it was republished on a horror news site). It was Marcus saying that Tandera Howard would be in Saw VII. I'll rent it again and refresh my memory.
3. Fixed. Also someone has added the soundtrack poster (again) ... is that really needed? Mike Allen 21:54, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Soundtrack image would fail WP:FUC and WP:NONFREE in a heartbeat. Probably don't need the infobox itself (which is what is drawing the need to fill the "image" parameter for some people), as the soundtrack has its own article. Plus, you're really only supposed to have 1 infobox in an article.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 22:23, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's how I feel about the non-free poster too. I brought the album infobox up on WT:FILM last month. Mike Allen 23:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, as Erik pointed out at WP:FILM, the image doesn't stand the test of time as far as fair use rationales go. You'd have to have critical commentary on it for justification, which as far as I know that article doesn't have. That said, I'm personally against soundtrack infoboxes. I was under the understanding that we're only to have one box per article (not a FILM guideline, but a Wiki guideline), but maybe I'm wrong. Again, in the least it's a personal preference and if I cannot find anything stating that it shouldn't be there then there isn't a reason for you to remove it. :D  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 23:30, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Should Saw VI: Original Motion Picture Soundtrack be bolded? Mike Allen 01:04, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Based on WP:MOSBOLD, I could not find anything (and I may have easily missed it) that says you bold a title later in the article. All I could find is "in the lead", and that isn't in the lead. So, I'd say "no", unless someone else sees where that page says that you should.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 01:21, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question: The plot is currently at 725 words, and that's because the actors are included next to their character names. If I made a cast list, it would bring the word count down to 697. So, should that be done? Mike Allen 23:19, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • No need. 725 words is not overly detailed. The series does have a semi-complicated backstory with its characters. I think the section looks longer than it actually is. I mean, I'd read it and cut any wordiness that I saw out of it, but as I said before it's the only one I haven't watched yet.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 23:30, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • sign on . hyphen
  • story lines . storylines. more common
  • I don't like the emdashes in between the heavy numbering and symbols. brackets perhaps
  • It grossed $14,118,444—$4,650 per theater its opening weekend - not gramatical
  • Box office is just a proseform of a list of numbers. Covered in excruciating detail.
  • No. 6 inconsistency.
  • weighted average score. perhaps hyphen.
  • The best entry in the series since Saw II". move full stop inside.
  • One "Blue"-ray
  • "It's a fitting marriage, as hard rock and heavy metal are the sonic suitors to horror and torture porn films and video games". move inside

86.141.247.236 (talk) 03:23, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

About the box office, what else am I suppose to present? I thought the box office section is supposed to show how it did at the box office (that involves numerical figures). At least I did include the international box office performance, what else would you like to see. I don't know what you mean about the "Blue"-ray. I would appreciate, instead of listing a bullet point presentation, that you would please list your comments like the rest of FAC reviewers. Thanks. Mike Allen 04:17, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question: I've used NewsBank and got a few results from that. I've added one newspaper to the article. Many reviewers talk about (online and newspapers) how the film "satires" the US health care situation of 2009 and some even go as far as to bring Michael Moore's name up. [49]. I don't want to add any undo weight, but when multiple reviewers mention the heath care plot, do you think it should be discussed in the reception section. If so, how would it be the best to add it? Mike Allen 03:27, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Comment—The Critical response section containing the film critic reviews appears a bit "light" on content. It seems it could use a bit of an expansion. As a quick example, have you looked through a site such as the Movie Review Query Engine for additional viewpoints? For this particular film, it lists 73 critical reviews, which of course also appear on other film critic review sites like Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic. DeWaine (talk) 00:50, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You're right it does list a lot of reviews... but I'm not sure if many of those sites are considered reliable critics to use on Wikipedia? Also, I disagree with two of your edits. The first one you added this to the lead, "Following its cinematic release, the film failed to receive any award nominations from mainstream motion picture organizations for its production merits or lead acting." Is this really needed? I'm not sure if any "mainstream" motion pictures organization would nominate a Saw film for anything, given its nature. The other edit where you delink the US$ sign from the infobox. The film is also considered a Canadian film (apparently), and since US$ and CA$ are too different things, I thought it would be best to clarify that. Mike Allen 01:25, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Response—Well, to start off, I believe the lead sentence addition is needed. A film like Saw would sometimes garner an award for special effects or music. (I admit it; I might have overdone it by adding lead acting in that sentence). But never the less, films like that do receive nominations for "production merits". The dollar sign, is a questionable edit. I just didn't think it was necessary to include that tidbit of information. Finally, as far as the reviews are concerned; I do believe a significant number of those reviews are reliable. They contain viewpoints from notable newspapers such as the Los Angeles Times, the Village Voice, the Boston Globe, the Austin Chronicle, Orlando Sentinel etc. Just because it's not Roger Ebert, doesn't make it unreliable. The point I'm trying to make is, a page under consideration for Featured Article status should contain thorough-filled content in it's main sections. The amount of critical content is a bit low. If you remove the image, it becomes even more slim. I just feel you should add more reviews. DeWaine (talk) 02:06, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I will add more reviews from the major publishers. I also saw a few via NewsBank. I wouldn't expect a big critical analysis of a Saw film though and one reason I think I didn't add more reviews is it was just the same thing, just a different reviewer. And Robert Ebert hasn't reviewed a Saw film since the first... Also I would like others to weigh in on the dollar sign linkage and the addition to the lead--before the FAC gets closed due to no consensus. Mike Allen 02:26, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Additional response—Ok, fair enough. By the way, I was aware of that Roger Ebert issue. That's one review that would be considered a "given". If he reviewed the film and you didn't insert it, I would have made another objection. DeWaine (talk) 02:44, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've added more reviews (though I'm still looking through newspapers), would you "Agree" or "Oppose" to be a featured article? Mike Allen 00:33, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Secondary response—I'm leaning towards a support for FAC status. I'm satisfied with the additional inclusions of critical critique. It certainly looks more built up. Just so you understand, I wanted to clarify something with that. I understand your point by mentioning you didn't want to add the same types of reviews over and over again. But for the reader, its important to do just that. The reason is, every critic has a different reason for their individual negativity. One might think the plot was too predictable, another might have thought the dialogue was absurd, or another might have felt the film had cinematography and editing which was of low quality. Its important for a reader to understand why each critic gave a negative review.

But on another front, in the Production section, is there any more supplemental content to add? The material is segregated in three short paragraphs. I noticed through the References section, much of the content is sourced using only internet sites. And those would include Bloody Disgusting, The Collective and Crave Online Media. Have you consulted any novels? I don't see a single printed book with a corresponding ISBN number for your sourcing. DeWaine (talk) 04:47, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That is a concern (see the top of this page) with User:Erik. The only "book" source that I know features Saw is Fangoria, and it's already in the article. Google Books doesn't show anything. I live in a small town (under 500 people) so my library is not a good resource. I just don't think there is in-dept coverage of Saw VI in offline sources. Do you have access to subscription-only databases? Mike Allen 05:09, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment—Sorry there. Indeed it would appear I missed that previous response. I didn't know that issue was already addressed. When I get back in 10-12 hours, I'll see what I can dig up. If I can't find anything, then that will have to suffice. I suppose. DeWaine (talk) 12:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Other comment—Well, after searching for additional print sources, I've come to the conclusion that you were indeed correct about it's prospects. I don't have any access to any subscription-only databases, and my search for novels in connection with the film was fruitless. I'm not sure if it would be too wide or relevant of a topic to simply reference the Saw film series in general and not just this film in particular for more production details. If your able to do so on that front, I don't see how it could hurt the article.
On a separate note, I would like to just quickly touch upon other content in the article. First, in the See also section, is it really necessary to include the link for 2009 in film? I see virtually no relevance at all between that link and the Saw article. In fact, the only connection I see would be that the film was produced and released in 2009. Thats about it. Nothing else. I don't think thats a good enough reason to include it. Its simply way too broad of topic to include in the article. Wouldn't a more relevant link be to include the Saw (franchise) instead? I can't think of a more applicable topic to insert. Now I understand the link already appears in the lead section; but its distance from the See also section in the article warrants a duplicate insertion. Also, if a reader wants to research more into the film series, he should not have to search for the link in the article. Its easiest located in that section. Lastly, for the same reason just mentioned, I believe you should also re-insert the Rotten Tomatoes, Metacritic and Box Office Mojo links in the External links section. If a reader wants a more detailed layout of the box office performance, or simply wants to read into more critical reviews, the easiest place to find it would be the External links section, instead of searching for the link to those websites somewhere in the article. DeWaine (talk) 00:18, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well that's how current film FA's do it now. See Fight Club (film). Instead of piping 2009 in film to 2009 which results in an Eggy link, editors have been placing it in a See also section. I will include the Saw franchise link and re-insert the RT, MC and BOM links. Mike Allen 00:37, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Comments—Ok, fine. Just three quick comments though. First, in the Home media section, you might want to add that the film is currently available in Video on Demand format too. You can reference that on say, Amazon.com. It is a home media format just like DVD and Blu-ray. Next, I just wanted to justify that lead sentence which you thought had no merit. These type of films, and this one in particular could have been nominated for any of the following awards:

  • Best Art Direction
  • Best Cinematography
  • Best Costume Design
  • Best Film Editing
  • Best Makeup
  • Best Original Score
  • Best Original Song
  • Best Sound Editing
  • Best Sound Mixing
  • Best Visual Effects
  • Best Writing (Adapted Screenplay)

The inclusion of the phrase lead acting was just to round out the sentence. But I don't believe that sentence is unwarranted. Finally, I would just like to make a quick reference to that dollar sign issue. You can link the sign if you'd like, but I would suggest adding perhaps a citation as to why it's linked. Just linking it in the fashion you did it as, serves no purpose. It would be the same as linking the phrase United States or the term English. If you would like to reference a correlation between Canadian and United States dollars, it would be best to indicate that exact point. DeWaine (talk) 00:57, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If we're not going to link, then it may be better to leave the US in front of the dollar sign (US$)? This is to show readers that the money is in US dollars and not Canadian. Mike Allen 20:50, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment—Ok. DeWaine (talk) 00:07, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


  • Comment looks pretty good, but in teh soundtrack section: I would prefer to have the list auto-hidden, and instead have a sentence on the composition of the score (i.e. 3 parts + a bonus, etc). Nergaal (talk) 13:47, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I auto hid the tracks. I added this sentence "The soundtrack includes 18 tracks separated by 3 parts, each with six songs and includes 3 bonus tracks". I hope that makes sense (I know nothing about soundtracks)? If so, would you "Agree" or "Oppose"? Mike Allen 00:33, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looks good, but could you add a bit more about the release? It seems a bit short for a FA, and it only talks about English-speaking countries + Spain. Nergaal (talk) 02:12, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • What countries would you like added? English speaking countries were added, because, well this is the English Wikipedia and Spain was included because of the controversy. Mike Allen 02:24, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:49, 22 September 2010 [50].

Sacramento River edit

Nominator(s): Shannontalk contribs 23:39, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's a large river, and it's in California… that generally means that it is relied on for water supply by millions of people. The Sacramento is California's biggest and most heavily used river; its waters rise in the Klamath, Sierra and Coast Ranges as scores of snowfed tributaries, but by the time it reaches the sea after its tortuous course, it's little more than a trickle for parts of the year. I have been working on this page for a few weeks (mostly in a sandbox) and feel it is ready to be a featured article (as I live in California, it feels fitting to pay tribute to this great river whose water likely comes out of my tap.) Shannontalk contribs 23:39, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—The article contains a link to the dab page Cache Creek; there are no dead external links. Ucucha 23:43, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed... Shannontalk contribs 04:17, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments

  • Ref 4 is a note consisting entirely of unsourced information
  • Ref 11: the map lacks a source
  • Ref 14: as per ref 4 above.
  • Ref 21: Is this a scholarly source? It doesn't read particularly like one, although it does cite authorities
  • Ref 38 is to "Harton and McCloud". Is this the same as "Harton, Ron (2010" listed with the books? Why, incidentally, have these books been listed but not others cited in the article?
  • Likewise, ref 40: Royce and Wells", books "Royce, Ronald (2002)"
  • Ref 58: The Sacramento Press is a community news site. How does it qualify as a reliable source?
  • Ref 62: Inadequate information given. This is from "Vol. 25 No. 2" of a journal. Which journal, and what date?
  • Ref 77 lacks publisher information
  • Ref 82: Not necessary to list all 25+ contributors. "S.T. Lindley et al" will do
  • Ref 84: What makes http://yubanet.com/regional/Poor-Ocean-and-River-Conditions-Spurred-Sacramento-Salmon-Collapse.php a reliable source?
  • Ref 85: San Francisco Chronicle appears to be the publisher of SFgate
  • Ref 86: The link appears to be broken
  • Refs 92 and 94: consistency required in adding retrieval dates

Otherwise, refs look OK Brianboulton (talk) 13:04, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Looking… several books are listed below the references because they’re cited several times in the article. I could move all the books to the bottom, but that’d take a while. Shannontalk contribs 20:53, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
SFGate => San Francisco Chronicle fixed. Shannontalk contribs 20:55, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I believe all the links are okay… Ref 86 works fine for me… are you sure?Shannontalk contribs 20:57, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 11 has a source, Sacramento River Watershed Program; Ref 14 (15?) is attributed to CEC, and Ref 4 is simply a note, could add USGS-NWIS urls to it if needed Shannontalk contribs 21:01, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I believe references are mostly fixed; also added some to supplement the "unreliable" ones.

Comments

  • "The Sacramento, when combined with the Pit, is also one of the longest rivers in the United States entirely within one state – after Alaska's Kuskokwim and Texas' Trinity."

Doesn't the Pit reach into Oregon? The page says so in several places.

Nope, the Pit doesn't, I'll correct the article if there is. Shannontalk contribs 03:33, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*"The Sierra Nevada generally decreases in height..." I'm not sure, but isn't the term usually pluralized? The Sierra Nevadas? The Sierras? Similar to the Cascades, Rockies, Appalachians, etc. The terms occur in a number of places on the page, in singular form.

A bit of research makes me doubt whether this is even a minor issue. Looks like the singular form is alright in this case. At least, I don't know enough to say one way or the other, so I retract the point.
  • "two-thirds to three-quarters of northern California's precipitation though it has only one-third to one-quarter of the land. The San Joaquin River watershed occupies two-thirds to three quarters of northern California's land, but only collects one-third to one-quarter of the precipitation."

Shouldn't the San Joaquin River's watershed be said to occupy southern California, not northern?

Actually the San Joaquin drains central California. See the map on List of rivers of California. The San Joaquin Valley isn't close to the southern part... Shannontalk contribs 04:49, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "During the Great Depression in the 1930s, the first plans for statewide water engineering projects emerged backed by first the Californian, then the United States government."

I'm not sure about this either, but isn't the norm to refer to state governments without using adjective name form? That is, the California government, the Washington government, the Florida government, etc, rather than Californian, Washingtonian, Floridian?

  • "It is surmised that between four and five years ago, the Sacramento and Snake-Columbia River systems were somehow connected by a series of now-dry wetlands and river channels."

Is there a word missing here? between four and five years ago?

  • "There were once 9 species of amphibians that used the Sacramento River, but their population is now declining drastically due to the loss of their habitat."

Are there still 9 species? Saying "there were once 9 species" implies there are fewer now, but "their population is now declining" suggests there are still 9 species, but fewer individuals.

  • "The riparian areas along the Sacramento once totaled more than 500,000 acres (2,000 km2); today, only about 10,000 acres (40 km2) remains, much of it consisting of restored stretches, there is also a significant amount of artificial wetland in the watershed"

A bit of a run-on sentence, no?

  • "Second only to the Columbia River on the west coast of the United States, the Sacramento and its tributaries once supported a huge run of Chinook salmon in the fall and spring."

I assume "second only" means in terms of the size of Chinook salmon runs, but perhaps the sentence could be made clearer.

A nitpicky comment: Some of the em dashes have spaces on either side and some do not. Perhaps they should all follow the same style? I tend to not use spaces around em dashes. If spaces are used they should be non-breaking.

Otherwise, the page looks good to me, at least in terms of "is well-written", "is comprehensive", "complies with Wikipedia's Manual of Style (MoS)", "has a satisfactory lead", and "is of appropriate length". The content is factually accurate and neutral. Pfly (talk) 19:31, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: Parts of this seem well-done, but I also see big problems. Here are three:

  • The numbers in the geology section are way off. "While the Coast Ranges are young by geologic standards, only a few million years old, the Klamath Mountains were already forming some 7.5 million years ago." - The Klamaths are much, much older than that, comprised of terranes that merged with North America 150 to 130 million years ago, according to Ellen Morris Bishop in In Search of Ancient Oregon. Also doubtful is the claim that the Coast Ranges are "only a few million years old". Ditto the age of the Sierra Nevada, which the article claims is "a few million years". Where are these numbers coming from? The cited sources don't seem to support the claims.
  • Most FA river articles include a "Discharge" subsection in the "Course" section. Should this article have one?
Added a discharge section, it's probably kind of c*$#py, any suggestions? Shannontalk contribs 03:59, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Most FA river articles include something about climate (precipitation, temperature ranges, or any climatic factor that affects stream flows). How does weather affect the Sacramento River? Finetooth (talk) 03:15, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments I was asked to look at the article and would like to see the responses to Finetooth's questions before making many of my own.

  • I do note that the article lists List of rivers of Oregon in the See also section, but this is not included on that list. I know part of Oregon is in the watershed, but the course of the Sacremento itself seems to be entirely in California. Why is "List of rivers of Oregon" included in See also? Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:13, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment the refs that are PDF should have the "|format=PDF" parameter. Would like to see other comments addressed too. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:41, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:49, 22 September 2010 [51].

Bob Barr presidential campaign, 2008 edit

Nominator(s): William S. Saturn (talk) --JayJasper (talk) 18:26, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I nominated this article earlier in the year and it failed due to a wide range of issues. These issues were addressed and it then underwent a Peer Review. I nominated the article again in June, but withdrew due to a lack of feedback. I am now co-nominating with JayJasper, who frequently contributed during the article's development.William S. Saturn (talk) 20:21, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I co-nominate this article with William S. Saturn. Per his above remarks, the issues that hindered the earlier nom. have been addressed. The article is extensively and credibly sourced, vastly informative, and written in a readable and encyclopedic style.--JayJasper (talk) 18:23, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the above link.--William S. Saturn (talk) 20:18, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image review—all images are public domain or Creative Commons licensed. Imzadi 1979 → 21:09, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1c/2c review: Please fix fn22 urgently. I have strong misgivings about ^ Bovard, James (1998-03). "The Fires of Waco Are Still Burning". Future of Freedom Foundation. Retrieved 2010-05-07.'s reliability for facts, it is additionally miscited as it comes from a source purporting to be a daily news presentation (cite as a newspaper, Freedom Daily with publisher listed). fn15 (Vejnoska) fails to indicate the publisher / newspaper. Footnotes 7 & 8 support material which implies analysis (significance of such a vote, it is connected to his later running as a libertarian) without the cited material being able to substantiate analysis. fn12 lacks a location (there is more than one Reason magazine in the world), fn20 includes a publisher whereas other journals don't, and for no good reason (style consistency). fn22 is deceptively and misleadingly cited as it is a website for which an individual takes editorial responsibility; and as a result may well be bad sourcing, might not be though. fn21 fails to load. fn53 is miscited, fn80 is published by an extremely dubious source (single editor, non commercial, partisan line). fn82 includes a publisher for no good reason (it is a newspaper with a singular name). Fifelfoo (talk) 08:55, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Please see Future of Freedom Foundation and James Bovard as well as Ballot Access News and Richard Winger. These are reputable publications.
  2. Footnotes 7 & 8 show that Barr voted in a such a way. There is nothing implied in the text it covers.
  3. Footnote 22 is hosted by George Washington University.
  4. The remaining reference issues have been fixed. Thank you for your input.--William S. Saturn (talk) 17:42, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Continued comment: Hosting is not publication, but that footnote seems to have disappeared. Re 7&8, if it is trivium why is it present, if it is present as fact in relation to analysis, where is the analysis (and its own citation). They are facts which contribute to the argument "criticized by Libertarians who opposed his efforts in Congress" (lede), but no mention of criticism occurs in the "background" section. Winger's publication is not subject to commercial or peer review and he is a partisan, take it to RS for an opinion (or note previous RS opinion) or remove it. FFF is a partisan political body whose newspaper is not subject to commercial review, take it to RS or remove it. Additionally FFF is still miscited, it comes from their newspaper, not an organisational press release. Reason magazine is still miscited as there are multiple Reasons around the world. Fifelfoo (talk) 22:43, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I added the place of publication for Reason Magazine, and it's already linked. The background section is a quick summary of Barr's political past, the affect of his votes on his campaign can be found and sourced elsewhere in the article. In regards to FFF and Ballot Access News, please see the last paragraph in WP:SPS.--William S. Saturn (talk) 23:01, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer: see WP:BLP#Reliable sources." ? you may wish to remove those two and locate alternate sources then. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:01, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is not an article about a living person. This is an article about a political campaign. Expert sources such as these are permitted.--William S. Saturn (talk) 03:00, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • Why is it important that he is wearing Prada glasses in the image?
For clarification, this is in a caption. Prada glasses are a status symbol that may be hard to read in the image itself.
  • "Barr attempted to tap into Ron Paul's resources and supporters to raise funds, and used the same company that Paul used, Terra Eclipse, to design his campaign website..." - These seem like a poor example of tapping into Paul's resources.
Note the word "and". --William S. Saturn (talk) 03:00, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "winning the largest percentage of votes for his party since Harry Browne in 2000" - could this be reworded to indicate that he merely beat Michael Badnarik?
Done.--William S. Saturn (talk) 03:00, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Jim Bovard is notable, and the lawsuit gives insight into the former campaign's financial status.--William S. Saturn (talk) 03:00, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Any chance of getting more info one which types of states he got his better/weaker results in and relation to policy stances? Apart from his unsurprisingly homeboy vote that is common in most elections anywhere YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 08:56, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. I am currently working on this.--William S. Saturn (talk) 13:52, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose It's increased by a sentence in 12 days. This rate of fixing on the run isn't fast enough YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 01:34, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Concerns.

  • I'm starting a prose and MOS review, and it generally seems to work out fine if I just make the edits, but feel free to revert any time. The usual plan is to keep going and support after concerns (if any) are addressed, but if there's too much, I'll stop ... looks good so far, though.
  • Some folks really like to repeat the article name in the first sentence, but I just want to point out that this would be slightly tighter and say the same thing, use it if you like: "Bob Barr, former Republican Congressman of Georgia, began campaigning for the Libertarian Party's presidential nomination on May 12, 2008, after months of grassroots draft efforts." - Dank (push to talk) 02:46, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you want to keep the link you're using for fiscal constraint, the phrase "fiscal restraint" is much more common. A quick Google search suggests that "fiscal constraint" is a neologism in related senses. - Dank (push to talk) 02:53, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Although Barr campaigned throughout the nation, many of the campaign's activities took place in court, notably ...": it's the "although" that doesn't work for me here, because there's no contradiction in or tension between the two elements. Take your pick on how to fix it; breaking this into two sentences would work for me. - Dank (push to talk) 03:03, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sort of a WP:WORDS issue: do you have a source that supports "the media acknowledging a movement on Facebook encouraging the former Congressman to begin a campaign"? All I'm seeing is "Activists have started a Facebook campaign" in the Washington Times; "movement" would be the wrong word, and the usually plural "media" wouldn't be the best choice unless you have other refs. - Dank (push to talk) 03:20, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per WP:MOS, see if you can reword to lose a few of the many links inside quotes, or move the links outside the quote marks. - Dank (push to talk) 03:33, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please check your quotations to make sure that if there's no period inside the quote marks in the original, you don't put the period inside the quote marks here. Although this practice largely contradicts American style guides, I understand that it's more common elsewhere, and Chicago allows it (or did allow it ... just got the 16th edition, haven't gotten that far!) in cases where you're trying to be very faithful to the original ... as we are here. See WP:LQ. In the first quotation in the first section that had a period, you put the period inside the quote marks where the original had a comma. I've fixed it. - Dank (push to talk) 03:39, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Within two days, the committee reported that $25,000 had been contributed." That's damning him with faint fundraising, although if that's your goal, that's fine; maybe a little "clever" though. - Dank (push to talk) 03:47, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not sure: WP:% says to use "percent" rather than "%" except in "scientific or technical articles, in complex listings, and in articles where many percentages are reported." My position is that "%" is right here, since you've got a lot of percentages, and I left it alone. - Dank (push to talk) 03:57, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Always give the source of polling data. In this case, the source was Barr's exploratory committee ... it makes a difference. - Dank (push to talk) 04:00, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "chronicling the Libertarian Party and the potential candidate's run": "chronicling" doesn't mean "discussing", it means "giving the history of" ... except he wasn't running yet, so there wasn't any history of the run itself. I would have changed it but I'm not sure whether you were talking about chronicling his efforts up to that point, or discussing his future candidacy. - Dank (push to talk) 04:06, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Without commenting on George Will's writing style, I'll say that using words that 99% of the readers will have to look up isn't the writing style we're looking for here, unless the rare word has traction as a technically accurate word. "Fitting punishment" (no quote marks) would be so much better than "condign punishment" ... and there's a link inside quote marks again. - Dank (push to talk) 04:17, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, on the upside, it's in better shape now, check the edit summaries for more information on changes I'm suggesting. On the downside ... that took a while for just the lead section and the next 3 paragraphs. I think this one is maybe going to need more copyediting than I have time to give it. If you can find a wordsmith, please do, I'll check back later. - Dank (push to talk) 04:21, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:49, 22 September 2010 [52].

Illinois (album) edit

Nominator(s): —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 17:19, 4 September 2010 (UTC), Jujutacular[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because it met all of the requirements for GA status and was then further amended based on those recommendations and well as the suggestions at its first FA nomination and its peer-review; I have also asked for feedback from relevant WikiProjects. The article at present is stable and no changes that are suggested here should be a serious impediment to FA status. User:Jujutacular and to a lesser extent myself (User:Koavf) have been the primary contributors. I am willing to amend the article based on comments here and I have posted to Jujutacular's talk to inform him of this FA nomination. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 17:18, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 17:25, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Media review All images and samples are acceptable and have appropriate FU or other licences Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:02, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comment: Sources looked OK at the last FAC, subject to a minor issue re retrieval dates. The same issue requires that for consistency, retrieval dates are added to 5, 17 and 29. Otherwise no further issues. Brianboulton (talk) 15:39, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Done —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 20:14, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. It seems lacking for a featured article.
    • Explanation of any of the song titles - why are they all so long?
      • The song titles are long because that's what Stevens chose to title them. What's there to discuss? There is a mention of the fact that the titles are long in the reception section. Jujutacular talk 04:15, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Well, some of the titles themselves could use explanation. See below. --Hurricanehink (talk) 05:11, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Most importantly is discussion of each of the individual songs. You mention some of the themes in the songs, but you don't mention anything musically. After all, it is a music album. The first track has wild time signatures, the title track is in a very rare 5/4, another is in 11/4.
      • All of this is true, would adding the time signature information constitute original research unless I found sources? Jujutacular talk 04:15, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Certainly you need to find sources for the time signatures. I'm just saying there needs to be some mention of every song, some sort of musical analysis, something, IDK. There's no mention what "tracks" are continuations of previous songs. --Hurricanehink (talk) 05:11, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • The article is one-sided by only mentioning the good reviews. Where are the bad reviews?
      • There are really no reviews that have an overall poor view of the album. The worst opinion I found was in Rolling Stone comment about one song - and is included in the article. Jujutacular talk 04:15, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hurricanehink (talk) 03:48, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The article just seems bland for such an iconic album (and it really is, it's won so many awards). I really feel it's not comprehensive enough. Hurricanehink (talk) 05:11, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 02:47, 21 September 2010 [53].

Petitcodiac River edit

Nominator(s): EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 16:45, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Petitcodiac River is located in south-east New Brunswick, Canada, and was once home to one of the largest tidal bores in the world (from one to two metres high). The area around it was inhabited solely by the Mi'kmaq people before 1698, when Acadians from Pont Royal, Nova Scotia arrived to claim it. The river also went through the Great Upheaval, various industrial booms, and is currently the subject of a controversy regarding the construction of a causeway in 1968 (which is currently in the midst of being removed). I've nominated this article after an extensive revamp, and now believe it to be fit for an FAC. Thank you in advance for your time to review this. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 16:45, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 16:52, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment the lead is a bit on the extreme side, and really per WP:LEADCITE you shouldn't really have to cite much, if anything, in it. Ryan Norton 19:25, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Same concern (WP:LEADCITE) was brought up in the peer review, but I didn't understand the rule (I've read it anew, and I think I understand the concept). Right now I'm busy reformatting references, but I have a few ideas on what to shred from the lead. I'll get to the citation removal when I get the chance as well. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 20:46, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Removed all refs in lead, but I was unable to remove very much of the prose. Also tried to merge the second and third paragraph, but to no avail. Changed every (read: every) ref with the Cite template, and anchored Harvnb cites as well. Fun way to spend eight hours   EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 04:45, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yeah, I feel you, it is a pain sometimes. Looks a lot better now. Just a quick note: your article is tagged with the "Articles with improperly formatted cite map templates" category, so I'm guessing one or more of your "cite map" instances are "incorrect". Ryan Norton 05:46, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I fixed that. Ucucha 06:35, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Thanks, I appreciate that. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 15:15, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Another note: the licensing on File:Petitcodiac-river-map-closeup.png seems ambigious, all other images are free and check out. Basically is it in public domain in the US or does it need a fair use rationale? Ryan Norton 23:40, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Aha. All images are using the same template, but the other images are on Commons. Explains the two different templates. I'll see if I can fix that. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 03:36, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Done EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 03:46, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Thanks - good luck on the rest of your FAC! Ryan Norton 04:10, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • Thank you for the great help. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 04:48, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments -
  • Current ref 10 (Rivers and Streams) lacks a publisher
    Done' EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 15:43, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • What makes the following reliable sources?
  • Current ref 62 (hiller) lacks a publisher
    Done EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 15:43, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:11, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Comments This was an interesting read for someone who has only visited the area. I take some issue with the history, which whitewashes the Acadian role leading up to the expulsion. The Acadians were asked to take a variety of oaths after the fall of Port Royal in 1710; a number of them took oaths of neutrality (essentially pledging non-participation in French-English conflict) in the years afterward. Others continued to resist British rule (or were perceived to be doing so) after Utrecht; see in particular Jean-Louis Le Loutre. Some individuals known to have sworn oaths of neutrality were in the garrison at the fall of Beausejour. These facts contributed to the British decision to order the expulsion. (None of this, of course, minimizes or excuses the brutality of what the British did; it does point out that the decision was not as arbitrary or capricious as presented here.) I know this is an article about a river, not history; please find a way to include a little more balance in this section. Magic♪piano 17:01, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you for the comments. I will tend to the neutrality issue with the Acadian history section, but I want you to know that I was just trying my best to stick by the information presented in my sources. I'm also not very knowledgeable with our early modern history, so most of this was new (albeit fascinating) for me. I'll gladly research a little more to give better insight on the events and reasons for which the deportation was initiated. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 21:15, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I've completed a bit of research, but other than what I've rewritten to form the current version of the section, nothing extremely significant seems to have come from the Acadian side. Searching and adding anything else would give undue weight (primarily since my sources do not indicate any role other than Le Loutre's), something which is nonsensical in, as you noted, an article about a river. Besides, it only serves as background context for the more relevant exportation.
    Another note: the Acadians were deported because of the reluctance by some to sign the 1755 oath, which was ultimately accepted. Charles Lawrence was the one to order the deportation under this basis, and it was not based on anything other than that reluctance (all sourced). I think it would be just to say that the decision was somewhat arbitrary. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 01:46, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I think your changes in this are fine. My knowledge of the details is somewhat imperfect, but I knew there was nuance missing that is now more visible. Magic♪piano 03:19, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Imperfect knowledge or not, I found a grave error in my wording that led the paragraph to be inaccurate to its references. I would not have found it if you had not questioned its neutrality, so among other things (including the support vote), thank you. =) EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 03:38, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support I couldn't find anything at fault. Good article, congrats. Sandman888 (talk) 08:44, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose by Karanacs. I was very excited to see this article go up, as the Wikipedia coverage of Acadian topics is very poor. I found the first half of the article to be engaging. However, I have concerns about the sourcing in the latter half of the article, and there are a few MOS issues to clear up.
  • Easy stuff first - cquotes are not generally accepted in FAs (see previous discussion at WT:FAC from earlier this summer). The second one in the article should likely be incorporated inline. The first one is a little more tricky. While this could be converted to a quote box, the placement would need to be changed. A quote box is usually placed, like an image, to one side of the text, and there is already an image in this section. I recommend that you find a way to incorporate this as a blockquote into the regular text, or just drop it - to me, this doesn't add a lot to my understanding of the topic.
    • I removed the second quote, as it was more of a way to cut into the large block of information present (which can obviously be depressing for a reader). The first one has been problematic since the day I placed it, since it simply seemed out of place. I eventually took it out, since I ultimately shared your point of view. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 21:44, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hard stuff next - the sourcing in the history section does not meet the FA criteria of "high quality reliable source". Much of the section is sourced to the website of the Petitcodiac Riverkeeper Inc. I would not consider this to be a reliable source at all for history (just as I would not consider a city website to be a reliable source for the history of that city). We have no idea who wrote that information or where they got it, and there's always the possibility of whitewashing when those in charge now relate their history. Same thing for KnowMoncton.com. Same for the National Parks Service. The Newfoundland and Labrador Heritage website is marginally better, but it's nowhere near a "high quality" source. The edited works of Samuel de Champlain are not acceptable because that's a primary source. The section should be using secondary sources, preferably those published in scholarly works. For example, Bona Arsenault's Historie et genealogie des Acadiens. There are lots more works on Acadia and specifically on New Brunswick that would be useful for the pre-expulsion information. Using inferior sources is problematic because you might miss something interesting and useful that the lesser sources don't cover, or because you end up with an incomplete perspective/pov.
    • I don't want to sound like I'm going to rush this point, but I'm scared that if I withdraw this now, I won't have much time for Wikipedia at all due to school in the coming weeks. For some reason, the information feels right. I'm very well aware, however, that it needs to be verifiable. So if you give me until Sunday, I'll be glad to head out to my local library to find some sources for the claims (I live in Moncton, so that's a big plus -- surely there will be ample amounts of available information). A few paragraphs won't be very hard to cover, and I'll try to get Arsenault's book (as it sounds interesting to read). Stay tuned   EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 21:44, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Some suitable secondary sources for the early material: Fischer, Champlain's Dream addresses the early settlement of Acadia (but probably not the Petitcodiac River). For events and background on the expulsion, Faragher's A Great and Noble Scheme. Magic♪piano 22:11, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much; I found Faragher's work on Google Books, and Fischer's both on my library's database. I'll be checking those out. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 22:59, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you can redo the history section from scholarly sources and clear up any MOS issues, I think the article should easily pass next time. Good luck! Karanacs (talk) 14:24, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Eric, I very much appreciate your willingness to keep working on this nomination and to search out better sources. I would like to caution you, however, that the solution is not as simple as swapping out each of the unreliable sources with a book source. The point I was trying to make is that scholarly works may present the information differently, so it's important to keep an open mind and read all that you can to see whether the text needs to be changed - either to change emphasis on certain facts, add new facts, remove some. I agree that this summary is probably pretty close, but you never know what you'll find in those scholarly works! Karanacs (talk) 14:30, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, I thought I had pointed that out in my original comment. I suppose not. Anyway, I'm well aware it could be wrong, and I'm going to take the weekend to verify it. I wasn't sure how to word my comment to assure you of that bit, but I'm well aware of it. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 20:07, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I knew the explanation might be overkill, but I wanted to be sure we were on the same page. Karanacs (talk) 20:13, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just a heads up: the library unexpectedly shut down until the 13th, so I'm going to have to push this back until Wednesday at least. Two of the books I'm planning to consult are references only, and as a result, I'll only have a few hours with them (I'll check out the rest, of course). If there are any other comments or concerns people would like to address other than this specific sourcing issue, feel free to do so. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 15:14, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Progress check? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:34, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Beat me to it by a half-hour. =P I've sourced most of the History section with quality sources from the library. Some of the information was changed to comply with the new sources. (@Karanacs: A substantial amount of info was changed, you can check that in the description if you want. Seems it wasn't as accurate as I believed.) The colonisation section will be merged with the first paragraph of the Acadian history section, due to the fact that I cannot find sources for the Micmac claims (other than the fact that they colonised it and that they live at Fort Folly). The final paragraph of the Recolonisation section will be sourced either tonight or (if I cannot find information) on Saturday. The History section's layout will be shifted tonight as well. That's what I've done so far. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 20:21, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Everything is done. Larracey's book is quite informative, and I was able to complete everything asked. A bit of the layout was shifted, but not as much as I thought. Just waiting for Karanacs' opinion now. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 02:00, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I took a look at the history section. Kudos for your hard work! Unfortunately, I still see some issues.

  • Assumes knowledge - we don't ever define what Acadia is in the history section.
    • Done. Rearranged the structure of the first few sentences to make it a little clearer. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 00:16, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Did Champlain map the Petitcodiac River area during the 1604 expedition? If so, that is important information.
    • He did not. He, Dugua, and Poutrincourt later backtracked their ships (after their infamous stay on Île Saint-Croix) to colonise the settlement of Port Royal in eastern Nova Scotia, but they never touched it. They are often mentioned in works related to the region because Thibodeau, from Port Royal, would colonise the Petitcodiac area 94 years later. Would removing the detail that he was a cartographer help rectify doubts of that sort in the future? EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 00:16, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we have any idea what the population of the area was - either the Mi'kmaq population before/after Europeans arrived, or the Acadian population prior to the expulsion (165 families is a bit misleading, as a few of my ancestors in the area had 13+ kids and some had a lot fewer)?
    • Aha! Found an accurate representation of the Three Rivers' population in 1755. Griffiths cites a book by Paul Surette for this, so I might check it out on Wednesday. Maybe more info lies there. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 00:16, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Any information on how the Acadians or the Mi'kmaq used the river in these earlier times? Fishing - any for export or just for home use? Any attempts to harness the water?
    • If you look at the earlier versions of the article, the colonisation section was primarily on how the Mi'kmaq used the tidal bore to travel from Chipoudy to Salisbury, and from Salisbury to the Saint John River -> Saint Lawrence River. I had to take it out when asked to change the source from the Riverkeeper as I found absolutely nothing on it when researching. But yes, they *did* use it... but I can't prove it as of now. (Maybe Surette's book mentioned above could help.) EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 00:16, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Any impact to the change in ownership of Acadia between 1713 and 1754?
    • Not very much. The change ended with peace and the Acadians remained neutral between the English and French. I mention the oaths of allegiance they were asked to take, which is probably the only indication of a change in how their land was governed. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 00:16, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Any information on English families brought in after the expulsion? I've read (but can't remember if it was just Port Royal/Beaubassin or also here) previously that many Acadians were forced to leave behind almost all of their household goods, and English families often moved into the homes with all the stuff. It would be interesting to see how the population shifted, if you can find numbers to demonstrate. I see that there is more info in Resettlement, but did no English really move in between 1754 and 1766?
    • I have not heard or read about that. Perhaps you are thinking of the Siege of Port Royal (1710), where Acadians left the region due to the English invasion? EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 00:16, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The history section needs to be copyedited. I did the first section, but there's room for improvement in the other sections.
    • I'll request the help of a GOCE member once my major additions are done. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 01:33, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • This sentence The victory was thought to have positively impacted the survival of the evacuated Acadians in the region cannot be attributed to the Petitcodiac riverkeeper. That's the kind of assertion that needs to come from a scholar.
    • I was hoping that, since it was related to the memorial mentioned in the source, it could have been accepted. Especially since it's a minor detail. I've removed it from the prose. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 00:16, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Karanacs (talk) 15:53, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Image review Several image issues:

  • File:Dentonshad1904.jpg: Where can we verify that this was published (distribution of copies to the public) or registered for copyright in 1904?
    • I did not upload the image (it was uploaded in 2006), but it clearly says that it comes from a work by Denton. This site specifies the work to be New York State's Annual Report of the Commissioners of Fisheries, Game, and Forests, first published in 1985 (last: 1907 -- source). Updated this on description page. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 22:31, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • The site states it is from Denton's portofolio, which was published in 1902—quite different from what was declared in the image's here, but still puts the image as public domain in the US. It is still off though, I found the fish in the First Report (1896), which I uploaded at File:The Shad (Clupea Sapidissima).jpg. Jappalang (talk) 02:37, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Petitcodiac-watershed-map.jpg, File:Petitcodiac-water-pollution.jpg, File:Petitcodiac-causeway.jpg: I would prefer for the source to be the url of the page that displays the image instead of the direct link (WP:CITE#IMAGES), although the OTRS alleviates the concern somewhat.
    • Done. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 22:31, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Monctontidalbore.jpg: The source states "1908?" and states "Courtesy of the Petitcodiac Riverkeeper". Images on Commons have to be public domain in the US and the country of origin. It needs verification where this photograph was first published. Since the "Petitcodiac Riverkeeper" is mentioned as the source, then it should be possible to contact them to verify this and to obtain a copy of better resolution; they are the ones who granted the OTRS permission for the above three images.
    • Source of original photo. Original source stated "spring 1908?", and the question mark was referring to the "spring" claim. Hover text on website confirms the date. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 22:31, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • The site makes no mention of whether this photo was published or not (a factor in determining the image's copyright status in the US). Publishing (distribution of copies to the public) and creation are two separate concepts; one can take a photograph in 1908 and keep it in his or her private collection before selling copies of it to interested parties in 1930 (thus making first publishing in that year). It would be better to seek clarification from Riverkeeper.
      • Note that several pre-1923 postcards, which show an overhead view of the bore, are at the Musee McCord Museum (search with "Petitcodiac" and check the "Include images of partners"). These postcards are in the public domain of both United States (PD-1923) and Canada (PD-Canada), so I would encourage their use instead if the above cannot be resolved. Jappalang (talk) 02:37, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Done. Thank you very much for the link; I found the boat photo in The First Hundred by E. W. Larracey, but still no source was found, so I've taken two replacement images from the link you gave me. very helpful and much more verifiable. Thanks. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 00:50, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Boat-petitcodiac-river.jpg: Where can we verify that this was published or registered for copyright in 1908? Hence, what is its copyright status in the United States? Per WP:CITE#IMAGES, the page that displays the image should be linked, not the direct link to the image.
    • Done. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 22:31, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • The same case as above.
        • Switched per above. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 00:50, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Other than the second item, the rest should be addressed before promotion to FA can occur. Jappalang (talk) 03:06, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't normally take this long to respond, but I was a little busy. Fixed everything I could. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 22:31, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Images are okay, either licensed appropriately or can be verified to be in the public domain. Jappalang (talk) 02:18, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose (reluctantly) by Ruhrfisch

  • While I can see how much work has gone into this, I do not think it is up to FA standards yet. I had read most of this when Karanacs made her comments and hoped that the History section would be improved more than it has been. While the sourcing is better, there are still large gaps in the history. SInce comprehensiveness is a FA criterion, the gaps need to be addressed. For example the section "Resettlement and modern history (1763–1968)" has no material more recent than 1859, so there is over a century missing in its coverage. The Causeway controversy (1968–present) section is nicely done, but again focuses on just one (very important) aspect of the river. What else has happened since 1859?
    • I understand your concern, but I'd like to note that other than the shipbuilding boom in the 1840–50s, there is little to say about the area, let alone how the river takes part in its history. Around the 1860s, the shipbuilding industry collapsed due to the benefits of the new European and North American Railway which came to the city. The city grew economically again when they became the HQ for ICR, and they were affiliated with them until the 1970s. I've looked through six sources for any reference for the building of covered bridges mentioned by Petitcodiac Riverkeeper, but nothing came up (took it out as a result). I can't verify their claims that the river was used for shipping sandstone to Boston and New York in the 1900s either, so I was forced to take that out as well. The river simply lost its novelty after the crash in the 1860s, and it was probably for that reason that it was seen as a nuisance in the 1960s (when the causeway was built). I could probably add the ICR bit to the article to talk of the economic crash, but other than that, I don't think anything is worth noting. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 16:49, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've added the bit about the E&NA railway and the rest of the shipbuilding industry, which reaches to the beginning of the 1900s. If you want more, give me Wednesday and I'll check out a few more books, to see if they help. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 19:39, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I also found the Acadian expulsion a bit confusing - the end of the first paragraph of the Acadian history (1698–1763) section says the governor orders their expulsion, then the first sentence of the next paragraph is Approximately 165 Acadian families living in the region of Trois-Rivières were affected by this event. but I am fuzzy as to how exactly they were affected - were they expelled? Well it seems not as they were there to fight the British, and then starve. However the first sentence of the next paragraph is Following the expulsion, Acadians in exile began to return to the region to resume their daily lives.[78] so some at least were expelled. I am confused.
    • I see what you mean. When the expulsion was announced, some went into hiding, and some were deported as the English attacked (mostly in Nova Scotia, but a substantial number in New Brunswick as well). After everything settled down in 1763, those who were in hiding returned to their homes, and some who were expelled from the area made their way back to their land. I'll try to clarify the prose in a bit. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 16:49, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Tell me if what I changed helped a bit. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 19:39, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was looking at this source and it talks some about the growing population of Moncton and how it is having an impact on the river - there is very little on the modern history of the settlements and people of the watershed (120,000 plus population)
    • This will be worth adding in the Resettlement section. I'll do so when I finish researching on Wednesday. Thanks. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 16:49, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • The Colonisation and Acadian history sections are about the region much more than the river, so I am not sure why there cannot be some history of the region / watershed in the later History subsections. Could there be mention of the political history? Could the dates of establishment of New Brunswick, the counties, cities and villages on the river be included? There are some population figures already, could the growth of the region be cited? I am not very familiar with the history of New Brunswick, but it just seems like there has to be more - the growth of the cities along the river led to the disastrous causeway being built. Are there books on just covered bridges in Canada / NB? Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:39, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Oh. I was under the impression that the article should have been straying from speaking too much about the region. Most of the Acadian history served as a background aid. I'll try to find info on population figures and growth on Wednesday. Political history... err, Canadian confederation took place in 1867, and New Brunswick was one of four provinces to enter that year. Nothing has changed other than that. As for the covered bridges, I found a short book on those in the Maritimes, but they only mention the more popular ones (i.e., Hartland, New Brunswick), and not in general. No confirmation on the number in the area either other than what the Riverkeeper has on their site. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 01:24, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The same source has an author, who is not listed in the ref here
    • Good catch! I must have forgot it when I re-formatted the references. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 16:49, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was looking at the source to try and figure out which are the four major tributaries mentioned in the lead. They are shown on the 19th century map, but at least one name has changed and it is very hard to figure out what these are from the article text. I also am a bit amazed that a river this large has only 10 named tribs
    • This was very tough to integrate. Most of the sources I found only cited the Anagance, North, Little, and Pollett rivers as "major tributaries". When I found the 1999-2001 report by the PWMA, they cited 11 "sub-watersheds" (each encompassing a total of 28 streams), one of which was not even tributaries of the Petitcodiac River, but tributaries of tributaries of the Petitcodiac River (lol, I hope you understood that). With that said, I don't think there is an established list or number of tributaries, so I had to say four major tributaries (per the majority of sources I found), and ten "established" tributaries (listed at the Tributaries section) encompassing 28 additional streams. I could change the lead's statement to ten tributaries, and add them in the Course narrative and infobox, but seeing that you are knowledgeable with rivers, I would appreciate it if you could give me your say on this. Also, it is stated in the Course section that the Little River used to be named the Coverdale River. I will write a stub sometime on the river. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 16:49, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • The basic point I was trying to make is that the lead is a summary of the rest of the article. If the lead says there are 4 majors tribs, then the article should at least repeat this and identify which ones they are. I think the article could say something like the Petitcodiac River is divided into 11 subwatersheds, which are drained by 10 tributaries. Might also help to note which trib is large enough to be part of two subwatersheds. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:39, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Done. I dropped the sub-watershed thing and simply placed the updated info in the Trib section. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 01:24, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Acres should have metric equivalents per MOS
    • Done. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 16:49, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a complete list of objections, but I belive it is enought to justify my reluctant oppose. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 12:44, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • I am fine with you taking more time, though it is up to the FAC director and his delegates how long this FAC runs.
    • Of course. I was getting a little worried they would have closed it by now, but I'm sure that I only have one run to the library left before I get most of this straightened out. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 00:31, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I note that the Wildlife section focuses almost entirely on the fish etc in the river, then has the mastodon. Most river FAs talk about the wildlife of the land around the river too. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:39, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Most rivers aren't largely surrounded by cities, either. I found this a few moments ago. Might shed a bit more information on what species are present. I may integrate it tonight or tomorrow. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 00:31, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 12:45, 20 September 2010 [54].

Warren County, Indiana edit

Nominator(s): Omnedon (talk) 22:01, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because Huwmanbeing and I have done a substantial amount of work on the article over the past month, and I feel that it is now substantially complete and provides a thorough overview of the county. Omnedon (talk) 22:01, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 22:06, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support — I've contributed to this article. I think it meets the specified criteria and I support its advancement to featured article status. Huwmanbeing ☀★ 22:36, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wanted to support but I will oppose because it is not among wikipedias best work. At even a quick look there are a lot of notable issues: intro is way too short; multiple paragraphs lack citations entirely; a lot of links are unnecessarily bolded; a few short paragraphs, and a very short health care section (either merge this somewhere else or expand it). Nergaal (talk) 02:17, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • These concerns should all be addressable without too much difficulty. I can say right now that the bolding was intended to call out those articles which were the subjects of those specific sections; but if that's not acceptable per MOS I'll certainly remove the bolding. Omnedon (talk) 02:45, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose for the moment. This is a decent, well-illustrated and generally informative article. It is in the main the work of one editor, with significant help from one other. Its main problem is that it does not seem to have undergone any form of prior review before coming here; unless I have missed something, there has been no peer review, no GA submission, no talkpage discussion. Any of such reviews might have allowed some basic problems to be identified and fixed prior to this nomination. In particular:

  • Lead: does not conform to the requirements of WP:LEAD and needs to be expanded into a summary of the whole article.
  • Citations: there are problems here, with whole sections, e.g. Transportation, lacking any citations, but the problem may in part be organisational rather than a lack of sources. A general rule of thumb is to ensure there is at least one citation per paragraph, and to end each paragraph with a citation. In the Demographics section, for example, all the information is sourced from the United States Census Bureau, though this isn't immediately evident. A citation to the census data should be placed at the end of each of the section's paragraphs. Is there any reason, incidentally, why the census citation couldn't be directly to here?
  • Prose: while this is not bad, it is somewhat clumsy and repetitive in places. Sample extract: "The first county courthouse was a log house belonging to Enoch Farmer, one of the county's earliest settlers, in the original county seat of Warrenton. In Williamsport, a log house belonging to William Harrison served as a courthouse. The first purpose-built courthouse was completed in 1835..." It doesn't read smoothly. The prose would benefit from a copyedit, preferably from a previously uninvolved editor.
  • Minor fixes; the bolded links issue raised above (also bolded subheads in Government section), bullet-point format within text, inconsistencies, e.g. "'40s and '50s" as well as "1960s" and "1980s".

I have also reviewed the sources. Apart from the citations issues raised above, there are no further isues here. Brianboulton (talk) 10:45, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • With hindsight, I can see that a peer review would have been useful; this is my first time through this process. As to a prior GA submission, I did not see that there was a progression from GA to FA, but if it is recommended then we'll go that way. It may be that this FA submission should be withdrawn for now while the article receives some more work on these issues. The demographics section is a standard element in most articles about cities, counties, and so on; it was auto-generated long ago, but I can see that this needs to be fixed as well. Thanks for the input. Omnedon (talk) 12:32, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image copyright review: All OK. Stifle (talk) 11:36, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:29, 17 September 2010 [55].

Things Aren't Simple Any More edit

Nominator(s): The JPStalk to me 18:21, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because it is comprehensive and appears to tick all of the boxes. It has recently undergone a copyedit from the Guild of Copyeditors, and a peer review further enhanced the prose. I envisage any additional improvements that might be requested here to be minimal. The JPStalk to me 18:21, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - no dab links, no dead external links. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:35, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The sources all look good to me, but one little quibble. Ref 7 (Comedy Connections) has its date formatted ISO-style whereas the rest are in DD Month YYY format. Imzadi 1979 → 21:29, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support This looks good to me, although I've had a go at revising the introduction into the "three paragraph" structure. I'm not sure if it's an improvement or not (feel free to revert). Bob talk 10:15, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I remember watching this episode when it was first broadcast, and it was powerful stuff, but I don't get much of a sense of that from this article. On the other hand, it seems altogether too weepy for me in some places, such as in the caption under the lead image: "Watching the shot being filmed gave the writer a lump in his throat." From a more technical FA perspective, the lead does not adequately summarise the article and the tenses and chronology in the Synopsis section seem to be all over the place. For instance, what does "The story begins in present day with Margaret (Annette Crosbie) having a heated telephone conversation ..." mean? Present-day what? Should that be "the present day"? Back to the weepiness theme, what about this: "The technicalities and temperature of the night shoot meant that the scene did not impact upon the cast and crew during filming. But as he watched Victor's arm falling into the shot and his cap drift away in the gutter, Renwick "for a moment" felt a lump in his throat." Hard to know where to start with that. Malleus Fatuorum 21:05, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for the copyedits you've just undertaken. What do you think the lead is missing? It seems to cover every major part of the article? How do you feel the 'powerful stuff' can be addressed without breaching WP:NOR? Perhaps it isn't actually "powerful stuff"? The Synopsis can only describe things objectively. The Reception section is the closest we can get to any impact upon viewers.
      I have removed "present day".
      There are not many reliable sources discussing the production. Thus, I can only work with what there is. If it's weepy, it's weepy. Unfortunately there are no RS discussing more mundane things.
      The caption you mention justifies the inclusion of the image. I'll take it out if it will change your vote. If not, there's no point.
      The sentence: "The technicalities and temperature..." has been rewritten.
      Also, two copyeditors have not spotted tense issues; I am blind to them too? Could you help me by pointing them out?
      I hope you'll help me address your concerns. The JPStalk to me 21:33, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Other copyeditors will of course have their own opinions, and resolving what you meant by "present day" has helped, but let me ask you what this means: "Confiding to a priest (William Osborne), Margaret pledges vengeance for Victor's death, vowing to "kill him with my bare hands". Kill who? The priest? Malleus Fatuorum 22:07, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Yes, that's another good point. I'll address it. You aren't obliged to correct things yourself, but since you obviously have greater skills than I (I'm not being snide -- I'm being genuine), any chance you could give it another copyed? It'll save time, and improve the quality for the reader. The JPStalk to me 22:11, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • I'm not a publicly funded service, and there are many things I want to do here myself, so I can't do everything that everyone else wants me to do, even if I was so inclined. It's my honest view that this nomination was a little premature, and that fixing it within the time-frame of an FAC is unrealistic. Others may disagree. Malleus Fatuorum 22:23, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Exp lead, and I've even cut down the 'weepy' caption. The JPStalk to me 05:38, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose on 1a. The problem with the prose is unexplained connections/statements. It assumes far too much that you know and expect even a knowledgeable reader to know as well. Needs a certain distance. I do not see how the rest of the text could possibly be up to standard, and this has been here for quite a while. Here are comments about the lead alone.

  • Is it useful to divert readers to British television in the opening sentence? It would be more likely to be clicked on as a "See also", wouldn't it? Could you peruse the link target Final episode to determine whether it is sufficiently focused in this context? (Is a section-link more appropriate?). There are plenty of high-value links at the opening already; I'm concerned about dilution (WP:OVERLINK).
  • It's a little unusual in this type of WP article to use past tense, particulary when you open with "is". Don't people still view it on DVD etc?
  • "Renwick had been struggling to conceive and write new stories for the series and had therefore decided to kill off the character." Is the causal logic of "therefore" clear to us? I'd be inclined to remove that word.
  • Isn't it the BBC TV Centre?
  • "sensationalist"—unclear why Christmas makes it thus.
  • The possessive apostrophe for "Millionaire?" doesn't work.
  • Speech tags ... "said" is the default, and use ellipsis. But here, even "felt" would be OK. So instead of the laboured "Many reviewers commented that the dark tone of the final episode was characteristic of the series, reflecting that killing off the protagonist was", try "Many reviewers felt that the dark tone of the final episode was characteristic of the series, and that killing off the protagonist was"
  • I don't quite get this: "Although this was the final full-length episode, Victor and Margaret returned in a short sketch for Comic Relief's Red Nose Day telethon on 16 March 2001". Tony (talk) 15:17, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 21:14, 16 September 2010 [56].

Abraham Lincoln edit

Nominator(s): Peregrine Fisher (talk) 15:47, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I"m nominating this because I think it meets the FA criteria. The is a co-nom with User:Carmarg4. It's been over a year in the making, with a big push in the last couple months. Also, it's a WP:VITAL article. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 15:47, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. No problems with dablinks or deadlinks. PL290 (talk) 16:00, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Based on my calculation of readable prose, the article comes in at 81 kilobytes. This may or may not be a problem (see WP:SIZERULE) but it probably needs to be addressed. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 16:19, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • I think because of the status of Lincoln, it's OK to be extra big, but we'll see what others think. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 16:26, 14 September 2010 (UTC) It's the 989th largest article on WP, so people know. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 16:27, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's 68kb readable prose, using Dr.pda's script; if 54kb is okay for a battleship (North Carolina-class battleship), I think that's fine for such a famous figure. ;-) The large overall size comes from the amount of references, sources, and external links. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 16:34, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I read once that only Jesus Christ has had more books written about him than Abraham Lincoln. I know I have at least 20 books on Abe in my library. For such a personage, the length of the article should not be a problem. After giving it a quick review, if there is a demand to shorten it, a lot of the military stuff the generals did could be edited out. I say this as a Civil War nut and living historian with scores of books on the military aspects of the War. After all, the article is about Abe, not what the generals did. Thomas R. Fasulo (talk) 17:18, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • What a great resource that library can be if needed. And I agree it's not about the generals.Carmarg4 (talk) 18:37, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - very impressive work. Some things to be improved/addressed:

  • "Conducting the war effort" is a bit lengthy - suggest either splitting into 2+ sections or cutting some of the material
    • Section subdivided with new titles. Carmarg4 (talk) 18:55, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The number of one- and two-sentence paragraphs should be slightly reduced
    • Good point. I dislike really short paras myself. I left a few for impact, but merged the rest. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 04:51, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "To facilitate this, Lincoln exercised unprecedented war powers, granted under the Constitution, including the arrest and detention, without warrant, of suspected secessionists in the thousands" - suggest rewording for clarity
  • "Under his leadership, the Union took control of the border slave states at the start of the war, and tried repeatedly to capture the Confederate capital at Richmond; when one general failed, Lincoln tried another, until finally Grant succeeded in 1865" - repetitious use of "tried", and "Lincoln tried another" isn't the best phrasing anyways
  • "His Gettysburg Address became an iconic symbol of the nation's duty" - I'm not sure what you mean by that, could you clarify?
  • Be consistent in the use of U.S. vs US
  • "He had an older sister Sarah (Grigsby) who died while giving birth at a young age" - suggest rewording for flow and clarity
  • "Lincoln later noted that this move was "partly on account of slavery" but mainly to land title problems" - is there a word missing here?
  • "Soon afterward his father remarried to Sarah Bush Johnston with whom Lincoln became very close and referred to as "Mother"." - grammar
  • "But he became increasingly distant from his father. He regretted his father's lack of education, and was not inclined to a vocation of hard labor as was requisite to their frontier life; although, he willingly took on all chores expected of him as a male in the household, albeit young, tall and thin" - reword for clarity and flow
    • Fixed. Here's a diff for the last few (diff). It also includes a clarification on the Gettysburg Address sentence in the lead by the kindly User:Rjensen (thanks RJ). - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 05:56, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He was no committed laborer during his teen age years, with family and neighbors then referring to him often as lazy" - grammar
  • "consummating the engagement with Mr. L.." - is the double period present in the source?
  • "But see it through he did" - tone
  • "this eventually led Robert Lincoln to involuntarily commit her to a mental health asylum in 1875" - reword for clarity - the commitment was involuntary on her part, not his
    • I took out the word "involuntarily". I think it's implied when someone else commits you. I could be wrong. Diff for the last few.diff - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 06:17, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since he was a politician for most of his life, shouldn't that be reflected in the "occupation" listing in the infobox?
  • Why do you repeat the same quote twice in the final paragraph of "Early career"? Use the full quote and omit the first instance, or combine the two. Also, don't include a space between punctuation and footnotes
  • "this, despite strong opposition to the idea from both sides of the issue and its considered unworkability" - grammar
  • "The party favored economic modernization, including banking" - didn't the US have banks before this? Or do you mean "in banking"?
  • "Congress never enacted the resolution or even debated it; it got no reaction from the executive, or in the papers nationally, and it resulted in a loss of political support for Lincoln in his district; one Illinois newspaper derisively nicknamed him "spotty Lincoln.".[59][60] [61]" - run-on sentence, fix punctuation
  • "the new and prolific railroad bridges" - the bridges were prolific?
  • "The idea was never commercialized, but Lincoln is the only President to hold a patent" - why is President capitalized? Also, it's not correct to say the idea was never commercialized, it just wasn't pursued by Lincoln
    • I left that one. According to his law partner, it was never used by anyone. That's pretty much all the refs says about it. Do you know of it being used later? - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 17:30, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Read through to check punctuation - there are a number of minor punctuation problems to be fixed
  • MoS recommends against using all-caps for emphasis
  • "that sang his praises" - tone
  • "collaborative story code" - what does this mean?
    • deleted and edited - researched and no definition found - integrity of ref. intact Carmarg4 (talk) 17:48, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consider splitting the nomination and election section from the main Presidency section
  • Why is "Term" capitalized in those section headings?
  • "At this convention, Lincoln's very loyal, though unorganized, campaign team emerged, in the persons of David Davis, Norman Judd, Leonard Swett, Jesse DuBois and others; and Lincoln received his first endorsement to run for the presidency" - grammar and clarity
  • "Lincoln's 1860 candidacy is held up by the slavery issue (slave on left) and party organization (New York Tribune editor Horace Greeley) on right." - make parentheses use consistent
  • "In terms of the actual balloting, Pennsylvania proved to be the linchpin" - explain further
  • "It did the leg work that produced majorities across the North. It produced tons" - repetition and tone
  • Is "Congress" or "the Congress" correct? You use both
    • I think "Congress" is correct, and that's what I changed it to. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 05:05, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "En route to his inaugural" - his inaugural what? Do you mean his inauguration?
  • Still need some general copy-editing for clarity and flow
  • "bi-partisan" or "bipartisan"?

More to follow tomorrow. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:54, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Donald provides Lincoln's..." - who is Donald?
  • "In August 1861, Gen. John Fremont in Missouri created controversy, on the Republican side, when he issued, without consulting Lincoln, a proclamation of martial law in that entire state, declaring that any citizen found bearing arms could be court-martialed and shot and that slaves of persons aiding the rebellion would be freed" - split or reword sentence for flow
  • "To this dictatorial insubordination were added charges of ineptness, fraud and corruption" - do you mean legal charges, or just accusations?
    • It was actual charges. Not super relevant to Lincon's bio, so I explained a bit and added a wikilink. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 05:41, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "boarded the British ship Trent; Union officers boarded the British vessel" - repetitious
  • "Trent Affair" or "Trent Affair"?
    • I don't know why, but RSs do it with italics on "Trent" and lower case on "affair", so that's what I did. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 05:41, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Double-check your capitalization of "Confederate" and related terms, as it's inconsistent at times
    • Oxford American says big C. (not fixed though-global edit needed) Carmarg4 (talk) 13:19, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "drumbeat of complaints" - I'm not familiar with this phrase; does it mean lots of complaints, loud complaints, a sudden storm of complaints, steady complaints over a period of time...?
  • "War department" or "War Department"?
  • In one paragraph you say McClellan became general-in-chief, in the next you say he was passed over for general-in-chief - which is correct?
  • What is "the Rappahannock"? Perhaps a link or explanation for those of us unfamiliar with the term?
    • the Rappahannock River in VA. Fixed and link added. Carmarg4 (talk) 19:56, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "reached a crescendo" - do you mean reached a peak? Reaching a crescendo means beginning a long but steady increase; given the context, that seems incorrect
  • Rosecran or Rosecrans?
  • "The Commander in Chief was most dejected" - tone
  • "the writing was on the wall and he tendered his resignation" - clarify?
  • "Charleston harbor" -> "Charleston Harbor" or "the Charleston harbor" or "Charleston's harbor"?
  • Make more frequent use of hyphens - see WP:HYPHEN
    • No problem. I'm a grad of H-SC and we play R-MC in football at the "Hyphen Bowl" each year. Carmarg4 (talk) 20:01, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "an explanation why the war with all its horrors had to continue" - reword for tone
  • "battle of Shiloh" -> "Battle of Shiloh"?
  • "The Confederacy was out of replacements" - wording
  • "backed Grant to the hilt" - what does this mean?
  • Double-check capitalization of titles, "South(ern)" and other sometimes-proper nouns
  • Are the Founders the same as the Founding Fathers?
  • "all persons held as a slaves" - typo present in original?
  • Avoid linking the same terms multiple times
  • What's your rationale for sometimes abbreviating military ranks and other times spelling them out?
  • Be consistent in using black vs African American (except where quoting)
  • The infobox states that Lincoln was a member of the Union Party in 1864, and a Republican only in 1865. What is the rationale for this distinction?
  • Union Party or Union party?
  • "And Frederick Douglas remarked..." - grammar
  • "The only known photographs of Lincoln giving a speech were taken as he delivered his second inaugural address" - did he not speak at his first inauguration? Source for this statement?
  • You jump from the appointments to the promotion of restoration of statehood to criticism of the appointments
  • Salmon Chase or Salmon P. Chase?
  • Explain what "greenback" means in this context

More later. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:04, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. Yeah. Whoa. This is where the "FAC isn't PR" comes in. Do you think this article needs several thorough copy edits, Nikkimaria? --Moni3 (talk) 13:44, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, sorry, I could go on like that for a while...definite copy-editing needed, and a check for consistency in all sorts of things, but I'd say it also needs some attention from a non-US reader (or at least someone who's not an expert on American history) to catch stuff that needs to be explained and clarified or reworded. I also noticed some sourcing concerns, most of which are covered by Ealdgyth below. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:39, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments -
  • Current ref 37 (Shenk...) shouldn't The Atlantic be The Atlantic to match the rest of your refs?
  • Same for current ref 213 (North & South...)
  • What makes http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/richmond.htm a reliable high quality source?
  • Likewise http://www.mrlincolnswhitehouse.org/inside.asp?ID=9&subjectID=2?
  • Need a publisher for the Boritt Book in the bibliography
  • Please make sure you spell out University in the bibliography ... I noted the Edgar book is just "Univ.", which is inconsistent with the other refs. Same note for the Handy ref.
  • Most of your bibliography entries do not give place of publication, so you should remove it from those that do to make refs consistent.
  • Please spell out the abbreviation in the Holzer ref.
  • The 2009 McPherson needs a publisher
  • Please spell out the abbreviation in the Naveh ref
  • Need a publisher for the Zarefsky ref.
  • Personally, I'd prune some of the external links - the Lincoln memorial website's a better link for the Lincoln Memorial article, you use the Lincoln Institute as a ref, so if it passes scrutiny, it should not be in the external links, Likewise you use the Lincoln Boyhood home and the Lincoln home websites, so they shouldn't be in the external links, and a link to the Project Gutenburg main search page is enough, don't need to list all the (outdated) works.
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:21, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: This is a hugely important article and has been the subject of much recent work, but I believe it should not be here at this point. The article's history shows that since its delisting from FA status in October 2006 it has failed GAN four times, the last in September 2009. It has never, so far as I can see, had a formal peer review. The number of points raised in this review thus far highlight its unpreparedness for FAC. Please bring it to PR. Brianboulton (talk) 19:14, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Your probably right, Brian. I'd like to let it go for two more days to see where we're at, if that's OK. It took another user and I four FACs to get Jackie Robinson to FA, and I'm hoping to do this one quicker, but as you say, it aint your average article and requires extra care. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 04:35, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Definite PR needed, I'm afraid. I haven't read the article at length, but I see a few technical aspects that need to be revisited. First of all, the EL section is overblown; the general belief is that the more links are included, the less useful the section becomes. Cull what is less notable, and perhaps tone down the editorial additions; for example, what makes one link "popular" or "good early history", and the others not? Why such a long list to works listed on Gutenberg? Also, I'm surprised (what with the huge amount of sources available) that the article leans heavily on the two Donald books. Is there a reason more than half of the citations are made to these works, as opposed to the dozens of others that are out there? The citations themselves need c-e for consistency, as well: a few "Donald"s are missing the year in parentheses, and do citations end with periods or no? Such an important article, but more work needs to be done. María (habla conmigo) 14:02, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. I'm reading this together with a buddy who's a Lincoln enthusiast. I agree with above comments that this needs a PR and a thorough copy edit. I'm finding a lot of repetitive or unnecessary wording, and in several instances controversial statements presented as plain fact. Here's a sample, I can provide more later.

  • I have a problem with the word 'dedicated' in this sentence: Lincoln was a dedicated, though often absent, husband, and father of four children. He was gone 9 months of the year and fought a lot with Mary. How about 'affectionate'?
  • This is repeated in the two first paragraphs: Before his election in 1860 as the first Republican president,... and then in the second, Lincoln won the Republican nomination and was elected president in 1860. Take out one.
  • This sentence is awkward because of the word 'became': Six days after the surrender of Confederate forces under Robert E. Lee, Lincoln became the first American president to be assassinated.
  • This must be an error: He brought leaders of each faction of his party into his cabinet--he had Democrats in the cabinet too.
  • I'm finding a lot of unnecessary 'fluff' wording that could be cut out to make the article more concise and to-the-point. e.g. one of the greatest of all U.S. Presidents. → one of the greatest U.S. Presidents.
  • Thomas, financially austere, became a respected citizen of rural Kentucky. 'financially austere' sounds awkward. And it's pretty debatable whether he had general respect; a lot of people thought he was a sucker and a bully.
  • Either explain 'milk sickness' in a clause, or leave it out: his 34-year-old mother died of milk sickness
  • This sentence is awkward: he willingly took on all chores expected of him as a male in the household, albeit young, tall and thin.
  • This sentence is another example of excessive unnecessary wording. Can it be made more concise? As was the custom, Lincoln also dutifully fulfilled the obligation of a son to give his father all earnings from his work for third parties until age 21.
  • Another awkward sentence: He was not a hard worker during his teens, with family and neighbors often calling him lazy. 'with' is an awkward linker.
  • The first paragraph in Marriage and family is debatable. It might make sense to have an attribution at the beginning saying 'According to Lincoln's law partner and biographer, ...' or something like that.
  • Another awkward sentence: Lincoln agreed to a match with Mary proposed by her sister, if Mary ever returned to New Salem.
  • This doesn't make sense: Mary Lincoln worked valiantly in their home
  • Another bad sentence: One evening, absorbed in his reading at home, Lincoln suddenly was rapped on the head with a piece of firewood by Mary, who had made four requests of him to restart the fire with no response. the passive voice makes it hard to read.
  • There are a lot of controversial points that are presented as uncontested facts. e.g. committing Mary to an asylum is attributed to the deaths--that's heavily contested. You could just take out the cause and effect there and state that Robert had her committed. Also, Abraham Lincoln suffered from "melancholy", a condition now called clinical depression. Maybe you should say 'which might be the condition now called..." or something.

If you end up taking this to PR, I'd be happy to give it a thorough review for you, let me know. delldot ∇. 19:07, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 17:49, 14 September 2010 [57].

Evanna Lynch edit

Nominator(s): Alex Douglas (talk) 10:14, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... I believe it meets the featured article criteria. (Updated:) Evanna Lynch is an Irish actress who rose to prominence playing Luna Lovegood, a supporting role in the Harry Potter film and video game series. Her casting was "big news", she has received critical acclaim for her acting, and she has done fashion, modelling and charity work. Alex Douglas (talk) 07:22, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 11:26, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • image review Both the images are suitably licensed , so no problems. I agree about the nomination statement though Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:03, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have expanded the nom statement. Thanks for the advice. Alex Douglas (talk) 10:13, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • General comment: The nom statement is uninspiring. Who is she, why is she notable? Why not encourage us to read the article - you might get more attention that way. Brianboulton (talk) 13:53, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have expanded the nom statement. Thanks for the advice. Alex Douglas (talk) 07:22, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments

Otherwise sources look OK. Brianboulton (talk) 14:13, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have fixed your comments. Spike.com is the official website of the television channel Spike, the channel which the Scream Awards are broadcast on. It's the primary source for the awards. If it is unacceptable, there's an About.com article, [58]? Thanks! Alex Douglas (talk) 07:22, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy to accept your assurances on Spike.com, provided other knowledgable editors don't object. Brianboulton (talk) 23:34, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Great. Thanks for your comments. Alex Douglas (talk) 00:49, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Evanna Lynch at HBP signing in London - Dec 09.jpg

  • Strong oppose. Why are you so obsessed with Luna Lovegood and such a big fanboy? And why bother getting an article like this to FA when it's only going to be demoted in a few months anyway when it gets degraded? This article is on an actress whose only just started her career. You'll just be wasting your time trying to keep the article in shape. Anyway, I can confirm that the article categorically fails the FA criteria. Here's why:
    • No need to link London in caption.
    • Delink "Irish" - irrelevant.
    • "in the Harry Potter film series." Perhaps note that they originate from the book series? Such as "in the film series of the Harry Potter books." Not every if such a Harry Potter fanboy.
    • met with critical acclaim - non-neutral fanboyism.
      • Removed "met with critical acclaim" as per your suggestion. Thanks! Alex Douglas (talk) 15:08, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "of County Louth, Leinster" perhaps also add Ireland?
      • Added "Ireland" after "of County Louth, Leinster". Thanks! Alex Douglas (talk) 15:08, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "public primary school in Termonfeckin, County Louth". You've just told us Termonfucking is in County Louth, no need to repeat yourself.
      • Removed the redundant occurrence of "Termonfeckin". Thanks! Alex Douglas (talk) 15:08, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Harry Potter series and became a prominent fan". Prominent? Maybe "keen" or "eager", or even "hardcore fangirl" would be more appropriate.
      • The usage of the word "prominent" in this sentence was discussed at this article's asdasd. According to Sarastro1, prominent implies that she was known or stood out in some way as a fan at the time. Lynch did "stand out as a fan", as sourced by a 2003 news article, published well before she was cast in the films. Thanks! Alex Douglas (talk) 15:08, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Actually the source has a bit more information that isuseful context - about her being released from hospital to receive one of a very limited number of signed copies. I would find a way to work that in, rather than leaving us readers guessing as to what made her "prominent". hamiltonstone (talk) 00:49, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Space between J. and K.
    • Perhaps tell us more about these school plays?
      • I haven't found any information in a reliable source that could tell you any more. Thanks! Alex Douglas (talk) 15:08, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "agents discovered". "Discovered" when it was she who went to them? That would be like me receiving post and saying I "discovered" a letter.
      • From my understanding of the word; discover means to be come aware of the existence of, especially something new. If don't think the word fits; could you please suggest an alternative? Thanks! Alex Douglas (talk) 15:08, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "the fifth film in the series adapted from the books". Only now do we find out it's from the books.
      • As per your previous comment, the fact that the films are adapted from books is now mentioned in the lead. Thanks! Alex Douglas (talk) 15:08, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "age 14" inconsistent with "fourteen" in the lead.
      • I have changed "fourteen" to 14, as per a Wikipedia guideline that says only numbers less than (or equal to?) ten should be spelled out. Thanks! Alex Douglas (talk) 15:08, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Delink 2007.
    • "Lynch enjoyed playing the role." This is quite earth-shattering news.
      • Should I change this, remove this, or return the sentence to it's original form: "Lynch was appreciative of the role Luna played, calling her character "funny and really honest" and "a breath of fresh air". ?? Thanks! Alex Douglas (talk) 15:08, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "proved to be a". Nothing here to "prove", especially as this was expected. "Was" would be better.
    • "The film broke records for opening-day sales and opening-weekend takings and was the second highest-grossing film of 2009." Maybe a comma before the second "and", or even reword "takings, becoming the second.."?
    • "called her the Best Irish Actress" - why is this capitalised? you can't "call" someone an award, if that's what it is.
      • Removed capitals from "Best" and "Actress". Thanks! Alex Douglas (talk) 15:08, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "for Best Supporting Actress". There's no such thing as a "Best Supporting Actress" in the Young Artist Award (only the Scream Award) so this is midleading.
    • "games: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows: Part I." No need for a colon.
    • Maybe link speculative fiction. That seems more relevant than primary school and webcast.
    • Diacritic on Ciaran Sweeney.
    • "participation with the". participate "in"?
    • "and participated in". Ungrammatical, as well as repetitive.
      • Replaced "and participated in" with "and took part in". Thanks! Alex Douglas (talk) 15:08, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "She launched the Multiple Sclerosis Society of Ireland's MS Readathon" Clumsy
      • It reads fine to me: "She launched the [charity's--possessive noun] [fundraiser--noun]..." Could you elaborate please? Thanks! Alex Douglas (talk) 15:08, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Where does it say they promote literacy? Reading books is not necessarily promoting literacy.
      • Removed "promote literacy".
    • Remove redirects.
    • Why do some newspapers have publishers and some don't? BBC News shouldn't be italised. Some things are linked, some aren't. Also some other oddities in the references.
      • I have added publishers for all printed sources. BBC News is italicized because it is a work, published by the BBC. I believe I have fixed these oddities; if not, which oddities are you referring to specifically? Thanks! Alex Douglas (talk) 15:08, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The article doesn't seem very comprehensive at all. The whole article seems underdeveloped. I notice that she's only famous for playing this Luna Lovegood but there's absolutely no information on who this person is. That seems like a fundamental omission. The article also isn't neutral: you've just cherry-picked quotes to make it seem like this actress is more fantastic than it is, there's no negative remarks or insightful analysis, just unrepentant gushing praise fanboyism. Anyway, I suggest you withdraw your nomination as the flaws are too serious to be fixed in the timescale. Even if somehow you do and get the supports you need, the article as I said above will only get worse with time and you won't be able to keep it in shape. Actually maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you're such a fanboy that you will indeed spend the next half-century of your life dedicated to keeping this article an FA. Remains to be seen.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.141.247.236 (talk • contribs) 01:07, September 13, 2010

My advice to the nominator is to ignore the invective from this IP and focus on working on the article. It is always good to have people trying to get articles up to the highest standard :-) hamiltonstone (talk) 03:08, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much for your review 86.141.247.236. I have search every review on Rotten Tomatoes for Order of the Phoenix and Half-Blood Prince for "luna", "evanna" or "lynch" and I have not found one negative comment regarding her, her character or her performance. I believe I have fixed many of the flaws you've specified; if there any more, I encourage you to specify them below. :) Thanks again for your review, and thank you to Hamiltonstone for those kind words and emoticon. :) Alex Douglas (talk) 15:08, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Notwithstanding the grumpy or derisive tone of the IP, they have identified a range of issues, many of which I agree need fixing. Other things:
  • Is the Tubridy Show a reliable source??
  • Couple of online source retrieval dates missing.
    • I've had a look over them, but which sources specifically? Thanks! Alex Douglas (talk) 15:08, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • My bad, I had misread as links to online sources what were in fact wikilinks. Ignore. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:49, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "While on the Harry Potter set, she was tutored for at least three hours a day." That's nice for her. But apart from the sourcing problem I;ve already noted, the WP text doesn't say in what. Speculative fiction? Surely not - does it mean her secondary schooling? hamiltonstone (talk) 02:16, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thank you very much for your review Hamiltonstone. I highly presume she meant her secondary schooling, she was rather non-specific on the show. Thanks again! Alex Douglas (talk) 15:08, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I don't believe pro gay marriage activism counts as "charity" and for the videogame thing it should be clarified what this entails as it is not obvious. Do they paste her face in various poses onto a figure, or does she record catchcries that are used when a character does certain things? Per WP's aversion to crystal balling, it may be better to reframe the lead sentence about the next film to say that filming is done and due for release YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:58, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Charity is centered around goals of a general philanthropic nature. An example of such nature, is education, the process of transmitting knowledge, skills and personal and cultural morals, values and ethics to another. She is "educating" others on a position of ethics. Little bit of a stretch; but the HPA is a charitable organization. She is a voice artist for the game; I will check the source in the morning. Is the 'final film' stuff really necessary in the lead? It's covered in the "Career" section and the lead is just summary. Thanks very much for your comments. Thanks! Alex Douglas (talk) 15:08, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • This nomination was archived several hours ago by Karanacs; pls see WP:FAC/ar. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:03, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm sorry that I added it back at WP:FAC. I was not informed that the article was archived, and I am unsure why it was. I'll ask Karanacs for her reasoning. Thanks! Alex Douglas (talk) 04:21, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 17:49, 14 September 2010 [59].

Albany, New York edit

Nominator(s): upstateNYer 22:43, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This article was just uprated to GA after a many-month rewrite by me. I think it is thorough, broad, and well written. I'm bringing this to FAC in an effort to get one of the central articles of WP:NYCD to FA level. Note that this nomination is in no way related to the previous FAC. upstateNYer 22:43, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ucucha 23:04, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've left scrub oak as dab because I don't know what kind of scrub oak it is. No source has indicated. As for the links:
      1. Fixed
      2. Fixed, but the another user may update this if he believes he has a better source Waiting on help from an expert (annoying that NPS links have all died like this)
      3. Fixed
upstateNYer 23:42, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps link to oak instead. Thanks for the fixes. Ucucha 23:44, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I guess I could, but Scrub Oak is more appropriate. Is using a dab in this situation really all that bad? Also, #2 link above has been replaced. If the expert changes it, so be it, but the source I just put up works for now. upstateNYer 23:48, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, Quercus ilicifolia appears to be the only "scrub oak" that actually occurs in the northeastern U.S., so you could just link that species. No dead external links left. Ucucha 23:58, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Beat me to it, I just came to the same conclusion and updated accordingly. upstateNYer 23:59, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just to confirm, Albany Pine Bush lists Quercus ilicifolia as a native species.
--Gyrobo (talk) 00:19, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there any specific historical immigration about when the various ethnic waves of immigration came in, eg Irish, Italian etc, if they did come in at certain points. That appears to be absent at the moment YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 03:42, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Intro "Albany has been a center of both state government and higher education for over a century" It seems odd for you to say "for over a century" just a few grafs below "since 1797". You've already said how old it is, you don't need to repeat. Also, it seems odd to say "Mayor Corning" as a name, should probably change this to "Mayor Erastus Corning" and move Mayor outside of the link. --Golbez (talk) 15:26, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Correct on both counts. Reworded. upstateNYer 20:59, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments

  • Refs 9, 14, 113 should state whether Vol I or Vol II. The ref would be more accurately formatted as "Howell and Tenney"
    • Done; the volumes just split the book. Vol I is from pp. 1-458 and Vol II is pp. 458-997 (yes, there's overlap), but I included the Vol #s anyway. Vol. I was never used, so moved to Further Reading. upstateNYer 21:25, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Refs 15, 17: Where is "Venema, (2003)" defined?
  • Ref 18 shows "Brodhead (1871)" Bibliography shows 1874
  • Ref 95: Language?
    • The version referenced is in English, if you open the PDF. upstateNYer 21:25, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Refs 115 & 116 (among others): Publishers given before title. This is contrary to the norm - see e.g. 118, 119 etc
    • I was calling the publisher the author. Fixed. upstateNYer 21:25, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 169: this is a hotel advertisement. Apart from the issue of its reliability, how does it support the statements cited to it?
    • Removed. I didn't really care for that detail anyway. upstateNYer 21:25, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Publisher location lacking for Burger book
    • The Google Books version doesn't say and doesn't make the copyright page visible. :( upstateNYer 21:25, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • The Rutgers UP website indicates that their HQ is at Piscataway, New Jersey. Brianboulton (talk) 22:29, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • No citations to Munsell's The Annals of Albany. Should be in Further reading

Otherwise, as far as I can see, sources look OK. Brianboulton (talk) 16:31, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]



I have been asked by the editor in question, with I whom I have worked a lot, to review the article and, before I do, I should make it clear that I am also a member of the Capital District project, that I have under the auspices of the National Register of Historic Places WikiProject and the urban studies and planning WikiProject written and photographed a great deal of the articles about historic buildings and neighborhoods in and around downtown Albany, which is about an hour and a half from where I live. However, I haven't worked on this article much save for converting the main infobox to a geobox, which I am glad to see the article retains.

That said, it is with much regret that I cannot support this for FA at this time. It's too long at 184K. That is the symptom of some other issues it has, and fortunately we can get to the FA by cutting it down.

Readable prose is actually 64kB (10,651 words), which is in a grey zone for splitting. I would, of course, argue that it is not too long. As I mentioned on your my talk page (in response to your response), there are numerous other FAs that are longer than this (Byzantine Empire, Ming Dynasty, among others). Admittedly, those examples are large, historical entities. But history is Albany's bread and butter. It's economy is not notable (there are 49 other state capitals in the country and, what, 60 million other baby boomers starting to hit their later [more sick-prone] years?), it's religious breakdown is similar to local states and cities, its outright noted for lacking in culture. Its government is notable, but mostly because of its machine-led history. Its architecture is notable, but that's history, too. The upside to local articles is you can go into more detail because the subject is smaller. Unlike Byzantine Empire and Ming Dynasty, we can mention specific people, and even roads (roads!). These are important to the city's development. I think length arguments are not all that valid because of past FA precedent and necessity of detail to really get to know Albany. upstateNYer 22:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also, not that it's conclusive or anything, but the page size tool describes the article's length as "readable prose size". upstateNYer 21:38, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't yet finished going through the 36-page hard copy, but here are some things we can do, not all of which are related to the length issue:

Geobox
  • The photomontage in the box could be more diverse. There are two photos of Empire Plaza, and you and I know that, despite being the most prominent thing in the city that does not define Albany all by itself, especially when another one of the pics is SUNY Albany's similarly Soviet-style architecture. You don't need to take them out, but perhaps you could put more in between them. Something green and beautiful, like the tulip festival or the Pine Bush, or Washington Park, that contrasts with the buildings, would really be a good idea.
    • Low on the priorities list and something that shouldn't withhold an FA star. We can look at that in the future. Although, just to make it known, I was making an effort to try to incorporate geographically diverse locations; architecture wasn't my biggest concern. And how else would you represent western Albany other than SUNY? But we'll save this for another day. upstateNYer 21:35, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since Albany AFAICT was never incorporated as a village before it became a city since its incorporation predates the state of New York and its General Municipal Law, we do not need to specify "incorporation as city".
    • Chartering and incorporating are essentially the same thing in this respect. I think that should stay the way it is. upstateNYer 21:35, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Albany was in fact chartered as a village, but its name was Beverwyck at the time, and it remained a village (dorpe in the original Dutch) named as Albany when the English took over until it became a city. So, yes it was incorporated prior to becoming a city. See Timeline of town creation in New York's Capital District for dates and information.Camelbinky (talk) 06:04, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'm confused. Are you agreeing that Dongan incorporated Albany as a city (i.e., not Beverwijck, because its name was no longer valid)? I think your other statements are just clarifying that Beverwijck was officially chartered as a village at one point, before becoming the city of Albany? upstateNYer 06:23, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Now I'm a little confused as well. My original point was that the recognition of Albany as a municipal entity of whatever nature by a higher political authority was well prior to the establishment of New York State. Therefore it was, along with at least Kingston, New York City and (I think) Schenectady a sort of "charter member" of the state's municipalities that did not need to be rechartered as cities or villages under the General Municipal Law or whatever the predecessor legislation was.

Camelbinky is suggesting that it was the equivalent of a village under the Dutch (were there any other municipalities in New Netherland at the time recognized as ... what would the Dutch word be? Staat or something like that? Or was dorpe just the general term for any settlement with legal status as a body corporate and politic?)

I think I can put this into one question: was there any time following the establishment of New York State in 1777 when Albany was not considered a city? Since the Dongan charter was not abrogated or replaced it would seem the new state accepted it as a city without requiring it to be a village first. Daniel Case (talk) 19:03, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dongan is clear that it takes the "town of Albany" and creates the "Mayor, Aldermen, and Commonalty of the City of Albany". As the article says, this is almost the same document prepared for NYC three months earlier. I've never heard that any formal legislation took place at the time of statehood. They had already been declared cities, so nobody argued it I guess. upstateNYer 21:50, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify- Beverwyck, about a year before New Amsterdam, was given a municipal government by Director-General of New Netherland Peter Stuyvesant. The Dutch used the word dorpe generally translated as village, though town is acceptable, and NYC histories often call their incorporation that of a city, so whatever you want to call it Beverwyck had a government. I thought Daniel Case was saying that prior to the Dongan Charter Albany was not a legally incorporated entity by his saying "Albany was not a village". I misunderstood. Albany, unlike NYC, never lost its city status (NYC gave up its charter during the Leisler Rebellion). As for the the Legislature's involvement in municipal status after becoming a state it legally couldnt after the US Supreme Court's Dartmouth v. Woodward decision made charters (a form of contract) as sacrosanct as any contract and technically Albany and the earlier charter cities couldnt have their charters revoked, just as New Hampshire couldnt do that to Dartmouth.Camelbinky (talk) 00:11, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it necessary to have all the councilmembers in the box? I put only the mayor's name there, and a city manager if there is one. That list would be better in the government section, since it is likely to be changed frequently. Or possibly in a separate article, yet to be written AFAICT, on the Albany City Council.
    • The legislative branch is as important as the executive branch (or so they tell us). I have it expandable for space reasons. upstateNYer 21:35, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd submit that we also don't need the three maps in the box, just the default one with the pushpin. The other two can go into the geography section. This would help ease the pressure on the layout.
    • I disagree; the pushpin maps are tolerable due to our lack of cartographers on the project. I was able to find and use one, however, and he gave us a great map. The county/state map gives context. I don't think either needs to be removed. upstateNYer 21:35, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Overall layout

While I appreciate the general alternation of images as easing readability as I have long advocated, there are too many places where (at least on my monitor) text is squeezed between images contrary to MOS:IMAGES (granted, this may be an issue of our respective thumb-size preferences) We can help this by shortening the geobox per my suggestions above, and also by making sure the image captions don't go more than two lines of text long. The caption to the image of Robert Fulton's steamboat should just tell us what it is ... the passenger load info is really better off in the text.

  • Will get back to you and see if I can make some changes. upstateNYer 22:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also, we should look at culling some of the images, and the first way to do that is eliminate uunjustifiable fair-use ones. I could find only one: the picture of Erastus (or is it Erasmus, as you spelled his grandfather's name on first reference?) Corning. Since the article doesn't discuss either that picture or his appearance, I submit that the picutre of him fails FUC #8 and should be removed.

  • Any article on Albany would be sorely incomplete without a reference to Corning. He was mayor for almost one-fifth the time Albany has existed as a city in the United States. And with that an image is more than appropriate (the name Corning shows up 34 times in the article, and rightly so). I think it is used more than fairly. Also, I don't see this reference to "Erasmus". Has that been fixed? upstateNYer 22:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The amount of times his name shows up in the article means a hill of beans as far as FUC 8 stands: "Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding." Readers can click on the link to the article if they really want to know what he looked like; I don't think his appearance is necessary to understanding his effect on the city. Daniel Case (talk) 03:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I still disagree with your assessment, but I've removed him. upstateNYer 20:56, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If it were totally up to me we wouldn't be so anal about FUC 8, and my only objection would be the placement. But them's the rules, and I noticed Sandy wondered whether we had more images than we needed as well. Daniel Case (talk) 19:48, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Structure

With 300+ footnotes at present, you should put the section with your multiply-used references, which I believe is currently your bibliography section, ahead of the references as "Works cited". Then make "Further reading" a separate section after the notes, before External links.

When I first started citing this way (listing pages in Reference section and bibliography later), I based it on Joan of Arc, an FA. I've now done this on dozens of articles, including Oakwood Cemetery (Troy, New York), my first FA. I don't really see a reason to break from the pattern, in all honesty. upstateNYer 22:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC) Made Further reading its own section. upstateNYer 23:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I understand, most of us stick with our preferred way of doing things if there's no MOS or other policy dictating to the contrary. But it's a little rough on a reader looking at your footnotes to have to go down to the bibliography; I think the natural tendency on a scrollable web page is to go back up. Daniel Case (talk) 03:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is wholly a preference debate. I disagree that the first inclination is to go back up from the References section and I don't think I've ever seen (or at least noticed) the way you describe it. upstateNYer 21:25, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And it isn't helped by the fact that while you'd think, from reading the list at WP:FOOTERS, that "Works cited" should go first, when you read the fine print you realize that that only applies to works by the subject of an article, which is obviously inapplicable here, and it is silent on the question of whether that hierarchy should apply as well to a list of works frequently used as sources. It's something we should take up at the appropriate talk page, but not here, obviously. Daniel Case (talk) 19:48, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Intro
  • What about the alternate "AAL-ba-nee" pronunciation of the city's name? I knew I'd lived in Syracuse long enough when I started saying it that way, more in keeping with Inland Northern American English.
    • My gut response is "this is just wrong", but I realize others say it differently. However, is the pronunciation not supposed to be based on local preference (which is clearly AWL-bany)? And to add to that, the name is British, and they say it the way we (locals) do. But I don't think many locals consider the other phrasing to be an alternate; more of a butchering, really. upstateNYer 22:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Butchering it may be, but it's the way about a third or so of New York's population pronounces the name of their state capital, whether reading the news, running for office or planning a trip. You and I call the fizzy sweet brown stuff we drink soda, but from Auburn west it's pop. Whatever you think of that term (and my Buffalo-born wife similarly looks down on "soda"), it's an encyclopedic aspect of New York. Ditto with the way Albany is pronounced. Daniel Case (talk) 04:26, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Part of New York, but not part of Albany. I personally have yet to meet a New Yorker (save for a NYC-er with a NYC or Brooklyn accent) not pronounce Albany correct (Buffalo? Syracus? I've spent some serious time in these places and never noticed this; and this is a pet peeve of mine). Only out-of-staters (mid-westerners actually) have I heard say AL-bany. And a third of the population? I would very much like to see a source for that. upstateNYer 21:23, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Brooklyn? To me that's where, if anything, you'll hear the vowel sound pronounced too correctly, if that's possible (Think the early versions of SNL's Coffee Talk sketches, where pretty much the only gag is the pronunciation of that vowel sound. I think Myers retooled them to the Linda Richman "like buttah" sketches because he knew that there wasn't much further he could go in that direction).

But I should rephrase to "the portion of the state with three of the four cities in it that are more populous than Albany but less populous than New York" (And that you can verify here, here and here with the cited sources). Daniel Case (talk) 19:48, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I first off, should acknowledge my COI with this article, as most articles I have written are related intimately to this subject and I have been involved in Upstater's rewrite with helping to find sources and especially with fact checking. I would say the tendency for articles to keep to the correct pronounciation and not cater to whatever someone "happens" to hear. First off any other pronounciation requires an RS, and second- what is the notability or relevance of what people in Syracuse, Boston, or Paris pronounce the Albany? Those two things must be addressed by those who think alternative pronounciations are required.Camelbinky (talk) 06:52, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The relevance of how "Albany" is pronounced elsewhere in the state is to me self-evident: it's the state capital. By contrast, I wouldn't consider the sometimes-heard alternative pronunciation of "Syracuse" as if it were "Saracuse" to be relevant since it is not of such statewide importance, and I've never heard anyone in (at least) upstate New York say it that way, in any event. Daniel Case (talk) 19:08, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would argue that Saratoga Springs is not as "nearby" as Troy and Schenectady are.
    • Not saying it's as close as the rest, but it ain't Boston or Buffalo. And it's clearly a major aspect of the Capital District. I don't think this needs changing. upstateNYer 22:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, maybe say "other cities in the region", then. Daniel Case (talk) 03:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, this sentence is defining that region. This is really a very mild sentence. "Albany, Schenectady, Troy, and Saratoga Springs make up the major cities within the Capital District". That's about as uncontroversially factual as you can get. upstateNYer 21:30, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll drop this objection, then. I do realize that, with the expansion of the area and the growth of the road system, Saratoga Springs is getting to be at least partially an Albany exurb in some ways (it's certainly within commuting distance via the Northway). But I would just note that personal experience suggests that not everyone in Saratoga Sprgins sees themselves that way.
By definition Saratoga Springs is a suburb of Albany. It is within the Albany-Schenectady-Troy MSA. It has for a LONG time been described by numerous RS's as a suburb of Albany. Its history is intimately tied to that of the region, same settler families, economy tied together, Albany's elite with summer homes there (going all the way to Mayor Schuyler in the 1700s), the city government even paid for the first fort at Saratoga to be built (today Schuylerville, also named for Albany's mayor). So its not like 'toga has ever been beyond the region.Camelbinky (talk) 06:52, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, but the other three cities were, in addition to being close by, all industrial cities that grew as they attracted immigrants. Saratoga has always been a resort town with not that many factories, and a large seasonal population of rich people (And it isn't even the county seat, unlike the other three). Daniel Case (talk) 21:21, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Try to avoid vague terms when giving distances. Use the numbers.
    • Updated distance to Hudson-Mohawk confluence. upstateNYer 22:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is the Mohawk confluence really relevant to Albany as a city (as opposed to, say, Cohoes?)
    • It's the eastern end of the Erie Canal, I'm not sure why it wouldn't be relevant. upstateNYer 22:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Only when you get to that part of the story. There was no canal when the city was established. I believe the determining factor at the time of Fort Orange was that that was about as far as you could navigate upriver, and it had the high ground where a fort could be established. Daniel Case (talk) 03:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fine, but the intro is describing Albany currently (as in, the Erie Canal has already happened). Whether or not you know of the Erie's history, it doesn't matter. If you don't know it, you find out that the city's close to the confluence of New York's two most major rivers and if you do know the history already, you see the connection. upstateNYer 21:32, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Dropping this one, too, after thinking about it.
  • Put in a cite for the "possibly the longest-running instrument of municipal government in the Western Hemisphere" claim. It's that extraordinary, and you have cites for lesser claims in the intro as well.
    • Cite is listed in the Government section. Not sure if you've gotten there yet. upstateNYer 22:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but I think a claim like that should be cited if it appears in the intro. In a long article, especially as it currently is, it's unfair to the reader to make them hunt all the way through it for the relevant cite. Most people are going to want to be able to check that as soon as they read it. Daniel Case (talk) 03:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I still think it's overkill, but I've added it. upstateNYer 21:27, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's perhaps the DYK experience that informs that one. Generally, I think extraordinary claims like that should be cited in intros, as well. Daniel Case (talk) 19:48, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd put the second sentence of your fourth graf at the end of the third.
History

As a whole this section is, IMO, the biggest contributor to the article's bloat. It would benefit greatly from attention to summary style, especially since there is already a separate article on the city's history.

Another global issue is the constant chronowhiplash. Too many times we read about something, then immediately afterwards read about what has happened to it or what it has become today. That constant alternation in timeframes is, perhaps, part of the appeal of Lost, but it just makes a text narrative on the history of a city confusing. Stay in the same time frame as much as possible when writing a history.

  • Listen, I know there are many people out there that are adamantly opposed to this style of writing, but for a summary-style article, it's near impossible to get around it, and I'm convinced that it's a reader preference more than something that actually causes confusion. You want to bring up an interesting tidbit from 1908 (say, the first commercial airport in the country), but you want to relate it to the reader's experience (keep them engaged), so you mention that it eventually became Albany International Airport, something they're familiar with. Then you go right back to the 1910s or whenever the next event you were going to mention happened. That doesn't hurt the flow. What you're asking is for me to bring up all these stories, then at the end, say "oh, and remember 5 paragraphs ago when I mentioned that airport? It's now Albany International," followed by, "hey, remember when I was talking about that brewery Quinn and Nolan that opened in the 1870s? It became Beverwyck brewery and was around until 1972." That doesn't work and frankly, this is the most efficient way to get out the most information and still see a motif or theme in the writing. Otherwise you have this choppy, split up history that makes you literally have to make this gigantic jump back to the beginning from the end multiple times (as opposed to jump around a little throughout). History doesn't follow a linear path; it branches off at millions of points. These short histories are those branches, then you jump back on the time train and continue to the next station. The more I write about this, the stronger my feelings are for my style of writing short histories. upstateNYer 02:49, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it's an accident of language, but a large part of history is story. I did the history section of Central Troy Historic District (granted, a smaller area, but it's also the history of Troy until about the mid-20th century) with that in mind. Daniel Case (talk) 03:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Right, each historical aspect of the timeline gets its own small story to keep you engaged. I just re-read CTHD and you do this same thing all the time. Maybe not as significantly, but I'd argue it's almost as prevalent. And, again, that's a good thing in my mind because otherwise you'd be bored out of your mind (and bouncing from the ends of sections to the beginnings to remind yourself of what the article was talking about 500 words ago). upstateNYer 21:36, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In the section heds, it would help if you put year ranges before the time periods, with the current titles as subtitles after a colon. That seems to be becoming standard practice.

You might also want, in a history this long, to have a short prefatory graf or grafs summing it up.

Colonial and Early American times
  • I think the explanation of why Albany's charter differs from New York City's as the oldest continuous charter could be better dropped into a note, as it gets away from the narrative flow.
  • Did anything happen of consequence in Albany between the French and Indian and Revolutionary wars? Yes, the end of the French threat removed a lot of uncertainty related to the city's further existence, but what was, if any, the practical effect on the city's development. Did it grow, physically or demographically? And what about the Revolution in Albany itself? I know the city was under British occupation during the war, which the article has no excuse for not mentioning, but a sentence or two on the general attitude of its residents in the runup to the Revolution might be nice. Were they Tories, Patriots or somewhere in between? Was there anybody who tried to organize either side?
    • I'm sure many things happened, but I'm very much crunched for space and I don't remember much coverage by sources because, naturally, the further back you go, the less is remembered... that is of course unless there's a war going on. upstateNYer 00:54, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • A minor tidbit: Hurley was also the state capital for the two months following the burning of Kingston during the Revolution.
    • Source? And if it was a relatively short time compared to the rest, makes me wonder if it's worth mentioning. upstateNYer 01:34, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose you probably don't have to mention it because of it being such a brief interlude. But it's true. Daniel Case (talk) 03:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It is also true that Van Schaick Island was the state capital for a weekend. The question is whether it is relevant to an article about Albany.Camelbinky (talk) 06:52, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(More to come later). Daniel Case (talk) 16:36, 8 September 2010 (UTC) Continuing ...[reply]

Transportation hub, 19th century to early 20th century

This section is sorely in need of work. It's mistitled, for one thing ... as it establishes further along, industries contributed mightily to the city's growth and development later on in this time period.

  • The opening line about Albany being a transportation hub should really be at the beginning of the Transportation section.
    • Disagree. I made a sincere effort to keep history separated from each other section. That would ruin the consistency (and create an awkward transition between past and present in that section). upstateNYer 00:12, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But Albany wasn't established to be a transportation hub. It was established as a military and political outpost. It became a transportation hub, and the history of the city at the beginning of the early 19th century should tell us why. Daniel Case (talk) 03:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not really getting what you mean here. There are a couple ways I can take this:
  1. You are implying Albany is still a transportation hub and want history stating it became such, it wasn't made such. I would disagree; I don't believe the city is a transportation hub any longer. Modern day transportation hubs are cities with huge airports like Chicago, Houston, Baltimore, and Newark. Railroads are falling by the wayside. There is no public transit system other than CDTA (vice NYC Subway, Boston T, Washington Metro) and no commuter train system. Albany only has 2 interstates that connects it to any other outside areas (not counting I-88, which starts at Schenectady, or 787, which is internal). The Erie Canal is for tourists now. Basically, it is a transportation hub as much as (or less than) any other city these days.
  2. You just want to reiterate that Albany was a transportation hub? In this respect, I don't understand why, since it's covered in History.
As far as I'm concerned this section is really only for reporting current facts. upstateNYer 21:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You mean transportation, right? But I find that it's not such a bad idea to reiterate stuff because you can't assume, especially with such a well-developed article, that people will read the whole thing (we have articles divided into sections with boldfaced heds for the same reason paper encyclopedias do, after all).
Albany is still a transportation hub I would argue. The two busiest exits in the entire New York State Thruway, the 13th busiest Amtrak station in the entire nation, a major seaport (Port of Albany-Rensselaer), and when it comes to cargo shipped by truck or railroad it is second only to the NY metro area in importance to the US Northeast. Yes, by the criteria of people-mover it is not as important as it use to be. But historically, how do you think Ohio, Michigan, Ill, Indiana got settled by those New Englanders? They went through Albany. Erie Canal was actually financed by Albanians (mostly the Patroon Stephen van Rensselaer) for the intent of increasing Albany's economy, had actually little to do with NYC (anachronistic historians later made it seem that it was about NYC becoming a major city in competition to Philly, Boston, and New Orleans, that was a side-effect). The first municipal airport and one of the first airports at all (less than a decade after Kitty Hawk I believe). The very first passenger steam railroad in the US. I can continue...
  • You don't need to list all the turnpikes of that era. That space would be better used telling us what effect the turnpikes had on the city's growth and development ... e.g., was land along them developed, if so how?
    • This is an example of where I have to cater to two different readers: outsiders and locals. Outsiders want general info; locals want to read about how familiar things relate to them and history. I can get rid of it, but it really adds value for a local. upstateNYer 22:35, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Then I submit that the history article is better for that level of detail. In this article we should keep the history of Albany focused on the city itself: how it and its people became what they are today. Daniel Case (talk) 03:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Didn't the convergence of turnpikes lead the city to annex territory along them? Surely it hasn't always had its current boundaries (I doubt that long western protrusion into the Pine Bush was there in the Dutch days, for one thing). There is nothing in the article about the city's territorial evolution, yet we've touched on it in the historic district articles (Clinton Avenue, especially, I think).
    • Unsure, have yet to really read about territorial evolutions. One map shows Albany as a line almost to Schenectady, but I haven't seen much reference. Then again, I can't be expected to read so many thousands of pages on the history either. I'm only human. :) Also, I personally see that as much too detailed, far more detailed than many of the details you have been citing as current issues. upstateNYer 22:35, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
An important part of the history of a city, any city, is how it grew and what drove that growth. Daniel Case (talk) 03:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's a very general statement and while I don't disagree with it philosophically, what you're asking for is significantly more detailed than the gist of your last sentence. Adding a sentence on it would match the generality of your latest request, but the first issue you brought up seems to want a detailed history, and if you don't want to see turnpike names, I really can't see why you would want this detailed history, too. I'm sensing a double standard. upstateNYer 21:54, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, you don't have to give details. Just a clause to the effect that the city annexed territory along those routes as it grew (Did Albany completely absorb any surrounding towns or nearby villages like, for instance, the way Troy absorbed Lansingburgh? If so that should be in there too).
The city had the long "tail" into the Pine Bush towards Schenectady from its inception as a city through the Dongan Charter (the Liberty of Albany), lost it in 1871 to Guilderland, then reannexed about half of it making roughly the current western border in 1910. Arbor Hill, Albany, New York was the only incorporated village (and coterminous town of same name) that was ever annexed to Albany. Other hamlets of the surrounding towns have been annexed- Groesbeckville, Kenwood, Hurstville, Normansville, and North Albany being the most notable/populated. Most recent annexation was in the 1960s along New Scotland Road. (Selfpromotion- I wrote every single article I linked to in this post).Camelbinky (talk) 06:52, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Care to come up with a concise sentence or two that covers this, with RSs? upstateNYer 13:45, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I wrote a paragraph with sources regarding annexations, put it on Upstater's talk page. Hope he or someone can pare it down and incorporate it.Camelbinky (talk) 18:13, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Added in the respective sections of the history summary. upstateNYer 19:00, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ditto with the railroads. Yes, the D&H and later the NYCRR being based in the city is important, but I'd rather read about the effect of the railroads on the city and its neighborhoods.
  • And ditto with the Erie Canal. Although you did, with the Lumber District, address some of that.
  • Also, since the city's population was growing, what kind of people came to the city when, and where did they settle? Mansion Historic District notes that that neighborhood was the first stopping point for many of the city's immigrant groups. We should have some of that detail.
    • The best I think I can do, because trying to weave it into the history section will be difficult, is to add more detail to the new immigration section under Demographics. McEneny is a good source for which neighborhoods supported which groups, but since the groups all moved over the hundreds of years, that could really lengthen that section. You're already concerned about length and at that point I'd be concerned about summary style. Having just read over that section of McEneny though, I don't remember seeing anything about Mansion District; I also don't really want to start depending on NRHP nominations because, quite frankly, they often contradict one another because different authors use different sources and don't consider each others' nominations when writing their own. upstateNYer 02:36, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not suggesting you cite the NRHP nom, but they do give their own sources, usually, which maybe you have used. Daniel Case (talk) 03:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • From this section, you'd think nothing happened in Albany during the 19th century except the development of transportation networks and industrialization. Were there any political or cultural events or trends of significance during this period?
During the 19th century... not really. Banking happened too. Albany well known for banking during that time, it was the Charlotte, North Carolina of its day. The Bank of Albany financed the Erie Canal (today one of many ancestors to Bank of America). Albany is not well-known for culture through most of its history it was an industrial city. Despite New England's insistance on writing history the Industrial Revolution in the US actually started in the Capital District (more in Troy than in Albany though), industry and transportation dominate any history of Albany in that period. Back then Albany and the surrounding area dominated just about every major industry- steel, textile, lumber, even manufactoring of pianos and printing of books.Camelbinky (talk) 06:52, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To be continued ... Daniel Case (talk) 18:57, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Corning administration to the present day

This section, I think, has the most problems.

Most significant is POV, which crops up a lot here. It may be the result of not making it clear enough that someone else's opinion is being cited, or words to avoid, but it needs to be dealt with.

    • I can't do much about that. There's only one book out there about Corning and McEneny's book (he's a self-proclaimed idolizer of Corning) literally has nothing overall good to say about him. Not to say he badmouths him, he just doesn't list anything that was an absolute positive for the mayor - except for keeping the peace and the status quo. Basically, he was loved by the people at the time because few of the people remembered a mayor other than him. And, as a politician, he didn't do a bad job, so by default, he did a good job. I'm going by the sources, and this overview is what the sources give me. upstateNYer 21:21, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Erastus Corning 2nd, arguably Albany's most notable mayor ..." Who argues this? It shouldn't be Wikipedia (I mean, I agree with the sentiment but the article can't be the origin).
    • On the other hand, Wikipedia making flat-out statements like that is worse. The source argues it (hence the inline citation). Everyone else agrees. But that's a hefty statement to make that would be coming very close to the line with respect to WP:NOR, WP:POV, and WP:V. upstateNYer 21:21, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the least you should do is put the quote in the footnote. Daniel Case (talk) 19:48, 10 September 2010 (UTC) Addedndum: And put the footnote itself at the word "arguably" (This is something I did myself with "uncharacteristically" here.[reply]
  • "While Corning brought stability to the office of mayor, even those that idolize him cannot come up with a sizable list of "major concrete Corning achievements." "Those that idolize" sounds slightly mocking. Can we just say "his defenders"?
    • Definitely not the intention, and actually I took that word from the source. Defenders sounds too much like he's on... the defense, which he isn't. Is supporters better? "Fans" is actually a better word for the situation, but I don't find it professional enough to use. upstateNYer 21:21, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's a lot better than "fanboys" :-). Daniel Case (talk) 19:48, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If positive things MUST be found to balance out the portrayal of Albany's "Mayor for life" then I propose lifting from Albany Pine Bush that he was responsible for the largest purchases of land for that preserve (and conversly for most of the destructive development on the parts he didnt purchase), that he pushed for the state museum at the ESP, his environmentalism before it was "cool" to be "green" (olive tree's at Steven's farm with the intent of using them as biofuel for city cars, a fleet of electric cars, basically golf carts, Albanians could borrow from the city to run local errands, a "people mover" on State Street, and other examples), he appointed Don Rittner as the first city archeaologist of any US city and personally funded Don's excavation of the Isaac Truax Tavern.Camelbinky (talk) 06:52, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kudos, however, for coming up with that picture of the Egg under construction (Even if it had been published somewhere at the time, if it didn't have a copyright notice it fell into the PD anyway, so I don't think there's a licensing issue). And good noting the way Corning backhandedly saved a lot of Albany's old buildings, as many others have (Maybe you could find a source for the informed speculation that he and O'Connell didn't want the Title I money since the FHA et al had a large say in who got it, thereby bypassing and diluting the machine's power.

    But a mayor's accomplishments, that line in The Wire notwithstanding, can consist of more than just getting or keeping crime down and "building something nice downtown". Did Corning have any non-concrete accomplishments? Did he reform or overhaul city government? Create new programs? Maintain fiscal stability? I think we're piling on him a little too much here. It's a little unfair for our article to quote other people complaining (creatively, I grant) he didn't build anything, then say "But that worked out in the end".

    • I did read that about the FHA and the machine, but if you're concerned with POV in this section, this statement would definitely be the worst offender: "Rumor even had it that Corning and the machine specifically turned away FHA funds because it would have caused them to lose at least some control over the city, namely who got those funds." That's almost libelous (stealing from the public good?) and something I'd like to leave in the book.

      Nowhere does it say that building something is a necessity for a good mayor. However, I think most people can agree that progress is one of those things. He and his people bought votes, loyalty, etc with cash, jobs, and influence, and not much happened while he was mayor. Which is the way he wanted it. Every day was the same for him. He'd get to the office in the morning, dictate 25 or so letters (on a type writer, even in the early 80s), take a trip up to O'Connell's house to "get his orders", come back down to meet with people, go to lunch at the Fort Orange Club, continue his day at the office or a ribbon cutting or something, then typically attend a special event for dinner before starting it all again the next day. He was the definition of habit, and it was like that... for 40 years. In that time period, he was directly response for almost nothing progressive. Buildings? Nope. Water? Nope, they still don't even have fluoride in the public water there, which started with him and his being scared of big brother. Transportation? Nope, he sold the city's stake in the airport. Some of his last words included that all he wanted his legacy to be was to be known as someone that had Rockefeller by the balls. And he did, but that's a pretty sad legacy to want. And, not to press the point more than I need to, but I'm going by the best available sources. I can't squeeze blood from a stone or unwritten text from a book. This is what the sources say (or don't say). upstateNYer 22:07, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fine, I appreciate being limited by one's sources (I wonder if he also resisted urban renewal because he and/or his machine cronies weren't about to sacrifice their favorite watering holes to progress). Daniel Case (talk) 19:48, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I also think the history of the construction of Empire State Plaza could be trimmed. I learned a little more from this one than I did in the actual article (and there is a contradiction there ... that article says the state took title in 2001 but it took some years to work out the paperwork for the formal title transfer).

    And maybe it's just me, but as I'm sure you're aware there is a lot of criticism of the aesthetics of the buildings and their effect on Albany's cityscape. We ought to quote some. Maybe I should get myself quoted in some reliable source saying one of my favorite criticisms, that driving up to them across the Dunn Bridge makes me feel like I'm on the Millenium Falcon being tractor-beamed into the Death Star (Some resourceful YouTuber should make a video juxtaposing the two. With the music playing). But anyway ...

    • Fixed contradiction. This is another example of "more detail/less detail". Which do you want? This is a difference between what you would want to read versus what "i" would want to read. I did add that the building was controversial, but that's in the architecture section. Also, there is clearly a generational divide between those that didn't grow up with the Plaza always being there and those that did. While many will argue that the architecture sucks (and I don't fully disagree, but it really is kind of benign architecture; other than being big, it's not nearly as bad as, say, RPI's library), the complex is undoubtedly what makes identifying Albany possible. It's the icon; the "weeny", as Disney put it. Albany would barely be identifiable. upstateNYer 22:21, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We could just, again, add a clause to the effect that the architecture of ESP has been criticized with the specifics in a note or footnote (I don't consider those to be bloating the article). Daniel Case (talk) 19:48, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I'll see if Diana Waite (Albany Architecture) disses the architecture. If so, I'll mention that critics aren't thrilled and just cite her. That works for me. upstateNYer 19:58, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

More to come after I actually go create some content, and maybe call it a night ... Daniel Case (talk) 04:19, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bodnotbod's review
  • Leaning heavily towards support:
  • SUPPORT - An inspiring article; it made me think "I hope I can see an article like this about the London borough I live in one day" which I hope will be seen as quite a compliment.
  • Proof read done: - I fixed two or three minor issues; rest looks marvellous.
  • Comment: - I'm viewing the article in the Chrome browser. The text at the top of the screen consisting of the information that this is a FAC and some geo-tagging stuff overlaps; two lots of text on top of each other. I don't really know if this is fixable by an editor - it may be a browser issue. I thought I'd best note it.
    • I use Chrome on Mac and haven't noticed it. Not something I can fix. upstateNYer 22:24, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I was viewing the article with a larger than default text size; if I view it in normal size the issue resolves itself. At any rate, I think this issue is outside the scope of the FAC process, so let's ignore it. --bodnotbod (talk) 07:14, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: - Section: Transportation hub, 19th century..., paragraph 4 - text refers to a "riveted customer base". I guess this means a customer base that is resident there for the long term rather than riveted in the sense of engaged in a passionate manner as one might be watching a film? At any rate, it seems a funny turn of phrase. I'm not sure what is meant, so perhaps a better word could be chosen.
    • Supposed to mean they pretty much had a monopoly because there were no other sources of product. I'll try to rephrase. upstateNYer 22:24, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: - Section: Transportation hub, 19th century..., paragraph 4 - text says "falling victim to unionization". Now I'll openly admit to being signed up to left-wing politics before observing that this rather seems to demonise unions. Was it a cut and dried case of the unions forcing the industry to collapse or was it more nuanced? Unions may pressure owners of capital out of business but it could also be the case that employers are so unwilling to compromise that they pull out their investment. So I don't argue that this is an incorrect characterisation, just one that perhaps needs to be looked at. In short, is it neutral?
  • Comment: - Section: Demographics, paragraph 2 - text says "...two years before Boston did". Perhaps because I'm British it wasn't clear to me why Boston is brought in here for comparison. Is it because Boston is commonly, erroneously thought to have been the first, so this is a sort of bid to put the record straight? Whatever the reasons for mentioning Boston, perhaps they could be made explicit, briefly.
    • Boston is known for being very Irish. I wish there was an Irish in Boston article I could link to there. In writing an article about a local city, you have to cater to the masses. Outsiders want general info, and locals want small tidbits they can say they learned. This is an example of a small detail. I think it's important to leave there. upstateNYer 22:24, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: - Section: Politics, paragraph 1 - text says "in many instances votes were bought". I think most readers will go "ooh!" at that point. However we are given no further information. We do, of course, strive for brevity but I feel this claim leaves the reader intensely curious left as it is. As a previous reviewer has warned that the article is too long, I assure you I don't want to be responsible for a whole new chunk of material. But I feel at least "bought by who?" and "to what extent?" could be answered without even starting a new sentence.
    • I'll take a look. I think my source makes reference to "handing out fivers" for votes. I think that should meet your expectation? upstateNYer 22:24, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Article v FA Criteria
    • 1(a) - well written: VERY GOOD - It's difficult to give an article on a city the same sense of life that one might a person or a fiction. But I found this pretty engaging. I thought it was a place I might quite like to live.
    • 1(b) - comprehensive: COMMENT - There's no crime information/stats.
      • I'll look into it; length issues could preclude this. Also, recent TFA Stephens City, Virginia doesn't even have the word "crime" in it. Washington, D. C. does, but that city is known for high crime. I'll probably reflect San Francisco, which incorporates it in two sentences (and I can use that article's source, too!). upstateNYer 22:24, 8 September 2010 (UTC) Added to demographics. upstateNYer 23:03, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • 1(c) - well researched: VERY GOOD w/ caveat - I bring to the subject no prior knowledge, so whether exemplary sources have gone unplundered I am not equipped to say. But there's a wide range of sources here and the use of inline citations is great, though I confess I haven't followed any; a technical friend of mine has encouraged me to keep link-following to a minimum until I further protect my computer.
    • 1(d) - neutrality: QUESTIONABLE - absence of crime section and glossing over of vote buying makes me wonder if there's a downside to living in Albany that has gone unexpressed. I wouldn't want to see a Criticism section but it does appear that everything's rosey in Albany. Is that true?
      • Not all rosy, but I personally don't think there are any major aspects of the city that downright suck. I've made reference to low-income, high-poverty areas in the most PC way I can, which acknowledges that the area isn't all middle and upper class residents. upstateNYer 22:24, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • 1(e) - stability: EXCELLENT - well for the last two months at least, which is as far back as I've checked.
      • Not many edits that weren't mine, really. upstateNYer 22:24, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • 2(a) - lead: VERY GOOD - difficult article to write a lead for and I think it's done very well. It's long but I think it needs to be.
    • 2(b) - structure: VERY GOOD - I haven't reviewed many articles about places, so I don't know if there's a best-practice here but as I read through it all seemed to flow along quite happily. I don't see any need to switch sections around.
    • 2(c) - consistent citations: NOT CHECKED - I lack familiarity with how these things are done, so can't comment.
    • 3 - Media: NOT CHECKED - I lack familiarity with licensing issues.
    • 4 - Length: VERY GOOD (IMO) - I know the previous reviewer disagrees and I'm also aware that we do have guidelines about length which I assume this article has contravened. Personally I found the length a good reading length; I didn't feel the article dwelled on anything unnecessarily. I bow to peer pressure if article size is an issue as we don't want to alienate our bandwidthedly challenged readers.
  • In closing, sorry to give the editors so much to think about, especially straight after the previous reviewer's call for great changes. I would re-assert, that I think this is a great article; the unfortunate thing with reviews is that they focus on problems rather than the 99% very-goodness. So congrats to the editors for their work thus far and I certainly see this on the Main Page in the not too distant future. --bodnotbod (talk) 18:17, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Size/loadtime is a problem; I attempted to do cleanup and MOS fixes, and found it took me almost two minutes (on a fast connection) to do one edit. Please find a way to reduce either the size or the loadtime of the article, so our readers can access it. The section "Current overview" needs to be renamed per WP:MOSDATE#Precise language. Further reading and External links look bloated, but I didn't attempt any further review because of the load time problem. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Doing a pretty substantial trimming job at the moment. upstateNYer 00:49, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Okay, I've done a good amount of trimming, but then I realized that much of the article's size comes from the references, presumably from urls. So I removed all the urls that linked to specific pages of books on Google Books. Unhappily, that change was only 3kB. I'm realizing that all the newspaper article links are probably the major source of the size problem. So the issue is: The content is currently being limited by technical limitations. Is it kosher to go through and start removing Times Union links? After all, the newspaper does have a hard copy of course, and users can always search the archives (as I did), though admittedly that's a lot of work. But I feel like I'm being dropped between a rock and a hard place because of technical limitations. What is your view on this? upstateNYer 02:36, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I tried that as a test, but it only took off 30kB. GAHHHH! You must have seen this before. What's the solution? upstateNYer 02:48, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • I don't think removing URLs helps much; what does help is replacing cite templates by vcite templates ({{vcite journal}} etc.), which produce much less cruft. Ucucha 02:51, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • Agree with Ucucha. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:53, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
            • Awesome! I'll try that. Funny I never heard of these. upstateNYer 02:58, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
              • (e/c) Okay, I've brought the size down about 30% (626kB→446kB). Let me know if there are still issues (although I'm kind of out of ideas for how to save space. (Nixing the newspaper urls will drop 30 more kB, which would be an additional 7% in size; not sure if that's worth it though.) upstateNYer 04:09, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
                • It should not be necessary to drop URLs (or wise), but the images do seem excessive and are slowing down the article load time. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:11, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't recall ever seeing an image KB size so high-- the load time is likely also related to images:
File size: 446 kB
Prose size (including all HTML code): 118 kB
References (including all HTML code): 115 kB
Wiki text: 167 kB
Prose size (text only): 58 kB (9625 words) "readable prose size"
References (text only): 27 kB
Images: 1039 kB

It's not obvious to me that all of those images are adding to the article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:07, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, my "page size" tool doesn't show the image size. Would it be because most of the images in the article are high-resolution files? Or does that not matter? Plus we have two wide images (both of which I think are necessary). I'm not experienced enough with page size to know what's going on. upstateNYer 04:12, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm using the page size script; regardless, the images are cluttering the article, and don't all seem necessary, and prose size is quite high (can better use of summary style be used?) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:18, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Most are necessary, I think. I'll see what I can cut. And I'm still in the middle of trimming the prose. upstateNYer 04:27, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support—I reviewed this article at GA, and found it highly comprehensive, well-written, well-researched, and even neutral once the part about whether Albany was the oldest European settlement in the Thirteen Colonies was clarified. I have no hesistation in recommending it for featured article status. I personally did not have an issue reading or editing the article when reviewing at GAN, so I have no concerns on that issue. –Grondemar 03:43, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can't decipher the citations; the short citations listed don't seem to correspond to any entires in the Bibiliography, and the Biblio isn't alphabetical and doesn't seem to have authors. Who is McEneny? Who is Grondahl? I was looking to check the "arguably most notable mayor" (what is the exact wording from the source), and wasn't able to find that source! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:18, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Annoyingly, {{Vcite book}} doesn't use the same syntax as {{cite book}} the authors are still there, I just have to bring them all the |author= instead of |first=|last=. They are listed in alphabetical order by main author last name. upstateNYer 04:23, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Ah, I see-- you hadn't finished converting yet. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:24, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • The most notable mayor comment may have been mine, now that I'm looking into it. I will look to see if similar phrasing is used in either of the books that would say it. Or they may just not actually come out and say the obvious. If not, I'll replace it with "longest serving mayor in the country" or something like that, since that's not debatable. upstateNYer 04:54, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is text sandwiched between images in several places (see WP:MOS#Images), and several images that could be moved to daughter articles-- the article is still so slow to load (even on a fast connection) that working on it is difficult, and most surely the images-- along with the article length-- are contributing to the loadtime problems. I still don't see McEneny in the Biblio, and some of the page ranges are wrong (see WP:ENDASH)-- there's still a lot going on in this article, and the review is only a few days old. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:39, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I only see two potential places where there could be sandwiching and it doesn't look like it would be that bad, even in a wide window. Plus, there's not really much I can do about it. I'll look into ENDASH. Where is that script? Somebody usually does that for me. There must only be one or two that are a problem because the script was run earlier. And McEneny is in the Biblio. I just confirmed it. upstateNYer 14:58, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm also not experiencing a very slow experience since I replaced all the citation templates. It's no slower for me than editing Oakwood Cemetery (Troy, New York), my other FA. upstateNYer 15:01, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Chabad-Lubavitch is redirect. Have you checked for others? — Rlevse • Talk • 01:09, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't. Is there a tool? Granted, Chabad is not one of the ones I would be very knowledgeable of (and, oddly, the page is Chabad but the bolded title is the same we use in the article). Almost all of the rest I would, and I'd probably use the correct name. That said, I do know that City (New York) is a redirect, as are many Albany street names (e.g., State Street (Albany, New York) so it's easier for us writers to link to it rather than constantly copy+pasting Administrative divisions of New York#City or Streets of Albany, New York#State Street. upstateNYer 01:19, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is a dab tool but not a redirect tool that I know of. Please fix the redirs you know of. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:25, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I only know of the ones I just gave as examples, but they were made specifically to make linking easier (especially for the situation where one of those subsections becomes its own article in the future). upstateNYer 01:31, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Make linking easier? — Rlevse • Talk • 01:41, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. It's easier for me to remember City (New York) than Administrative divisions of New York#City. The latter always requires a copy+paste because I don't remember it off the top of my head. Same goes for the streets. The redirects bring you straight to the section of the article. upstateNYer 01:47, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Redirects should be avoided, when you come across one, just copy it and use [[[Administrative divisions of New York#City|city]]. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:02, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I 1) have never heard this before (and it is not anywhere to be found in WP:WIAFA) and 2) find WP:NOTBROKEN to be pretty clear, stating this is unnecessary. If this is anything more than a personal preference, please point me to the source essay. upstateNYer 02:11, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Checking back in, the article is still slowloading and difficult to edit, and I don't see progress since I last lodged this concern:

File size: 467 kB
Prose size (including all HTML code): 117 kB
References (including all HTML code): 116 kB
Wiki text: 166 kB
Prose size (text only): 57 kB (9565 words) "readable prose size"
References (text only): 27 kB
Images: 967 kB

Some of the images are not enhancing the text and could be moved to daughter articles, and more aggressive use of summary style is needed. The length of this FAC suggests the article might need additional work once it is trimmed; it's not productive to work on MOS and other issues when the article is too large to edit (and I do not have a slow connection). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:35, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(e/c) I'm continuing work on summary. Can you specifically call out which images are not enhancing? I think I've removed 5-7 now, and an article on a whole city can only do so much justice if it's at least somewhat illustrated. I see we disagree on this, but the article is now severely lacking in images in my opinion. As for the size/connection/etc., I'm not seeing much of an issue. That {{vcite}} switch made a huge difference, and I don't have a notably fast connection (and, add to that, I'm on that connection through wireless, which slows it that much more). But I have cut this article more than 1000 words and shrunk the file size 30% since the FAC started. The further I go, the more skeletal this article gets. And skeletal≠WP:SS. But I will continue on trimming details. I just wasn't around much this weekend. upstateNYer 01:45, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Have to agree with Sandy. 170K is WAY too big. 100K is about the max any prose article should be — Rlevse • Talk • 01:41, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Listen, I understand where you're coming from, and you can agree all you want, but the fact of the matter is that there is obvious precedent. And the 170 is for wikitext, not prose. I can't help it if I'm being limited technically because I have a lot of references. This is shorter than many other FAs, but many of those link to books and have simple Author (XXXX), p. XXX type citations. See Ming Dynasty, for example: almost 14,000 words, and 137kB of wikitext. No newspaper references though (which, in Albany, require a long url, repetitive publisher and work fields, etc.); Byzantine Empire is another good example. upstateNYer 01:53, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So you're saying a city that's a few hundred years old warrants being longer and having more refs than an article on an empire that's thousands of years old? You're obviously very thorough but some of this really could be moved to sub articles and then you can make FAs of them too. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:02, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's not longer than those. Wikipedia offers a great opportunity to get a lot of information in for smaller subjects. Where the authors of Ming Dynasty might feel cramped by the amount of space they had to write in, the writers of a reasonably small city in New York shouldn't because the subject is much more specific and allows for greater detail, especially for the smaller population that can appreciate the added detail (and if I had 14,000 words as my quota for this article, I wouldn't feel at all cramped for space). While the article must cater to the masses as a general overview, minor details sprinkled here and there are what make the article interesting for a local to read (otherwise it will just be all information that they already know). Anyway, the subject does not dictate the length. Because every article on Wikipedia is theoretically only limited to WP:SIZERULE, that space is able to become more detailed and specific for a smaller subject (and the readable prose size here is 57kB, which is clearly a grey area for breaking apart per SIZERULE). As for breaking off, I've done that for Architecture of Albany, New York and Neighborhoods of Albany, New York. Like I said, I'll continue to whittle this down; I'm doing the best I can. IMO the article has already lost a great deal of its charm. Isn't there a guideline out there stating that editors needn't worry about the performance of pages assuming the content is reasonable, that it is assumed that the technology will become good enough soon enough to cover the issue? upstateNYer 02:24, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ming Dynasty did not pass FAC at that size; it grew post-FAC, and it doesn't have almost 1MB in images slowing down its loadtime. Also see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. The fact is, I can't edit this article, which means other editors can't either. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:33, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So then what does that say about other FAs? Cleveland, for example, has 29 images not counting small flags or portal images; Albany has the same number now (I can't see what the size is because the "Page size" tool doesn't report image size counts outside of Internet Explorer, I guess, and I have a Mac, which doesn't run IE any longer). Cleveland is 437kB (vs. Albany's 464). These are comparable numbers here, and one can "get away with it" while the other can't? Not to start a philosophical debate, but it seams all that matters is that the snapshot of an article at the time of FAC needs to be good enough to pass, then the floodgates can open after? But it's not the snapshot that readers see! That's not to say I'm trying to create more work for FAC reviewers—I respect that it's a strained community—but something has to be done for these older articles then if you plan to hold such standards to new candidates. And not to press too far, but I've had the Guild and a GA reviewer—as well as regular contributors—go thru the article with no editing complaints. I will work on trimming this early this week, but it's more than disheartening that other FAs don't meet the same requirements that I'm being asked to. Requirements that aren't even written down anywhere. upstateNYer 02:53, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Cleveland loads fine for me (it has less images), but it is also significantly larger than what passed its last review. Again, see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and WP:FAR if you see significant deficiences in Cleveland (I haven't checked it). Anyone can pass a GA, and anyone can sign up for the Guild of Copyeditors-- this is FAC, where review is more stringent (depending on the reviewers you get at each place, though). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:57, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Cleveland has the same # of images! And when I brought up the Guild and GA, I was talking about the fact that there were no complaints from anybody—other than you specifically—on load time. Just to be clear. upstateNYer 03:06, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(e/c) Just caught your "otherstuff" reference. I've read this before; I'm not a new editor here. You're implicitly telling me you believe the comparisons are invalid. I wouldn't have made them if I believed that to be true. These are very much valid arguments. Each FA is to be held to the same standard. That's where we're talking apples-to-apples. As the guideline clearly states, "...these comparisons are important as the encyclopedia should be consistent in the content that it provides or excludes." While openly noting that "'other stuff existing is not a reason to keep/create/etc.'", that other stuff isn't just stuff, they're FAs; they're the cream of our crop. If you want to avoid article creep because you're low on review resources, protect the pages at that snapshot in time. Then you won't get these comparisons in the future. Simple fix. upstateNYer 03:03, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I just want to chime in with an observation about the push to limit the size of this article and the photos. This article is getting attacked basically for being complete! The very definition of an FA is that it completly covers all aspects of the topic, nothing missing. Yes, summary style with spin-off articles are wanted and needed. But in the end, you still have to give Upstater and the rest of us leeway to summarize completly a city that is 400 years old and has contributed greatly to every aspect of US and world history/economy/transportation etc in those 400 years. The comparision to Cleveland sucks because, well comparatively (and no offence) Cleveland sucks compared to the achievements of Albany. It's younger, it has less history and importance towards US and world history, those are facts; there's simply less to state in an article. Is Cleveland more important than Albany today, oh G-d yes it is, Cleveland crushes Albany if you look at only present-day. Personally- if making this article an FA means it gutted and becomes an article that is pretty much useless then I encourage Upstater to make the article what he thinks looks good and forget the FA. I'd rather have a great article with no title than a fancy title that required making the article worse. Do you see the trees or the forest?Camelbinky (talk) 03:42, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I've heard that Cleveland Rocks. upstateNYer 03:50, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
An article on a city can be complete and compact (See WP:SIZERULE). Bratislava is a good bit older, more populous and, I daresay, more important than Albany in the overall global scheme of things (after all, it's a national capital, not just a major political subdivision capital). The current version of the article, which has been featured for over two years, is 96K; the version that got the FA star was 86K. If we want a model for an article on a city that has retained its featured status (look at FAR; it's scary how many city articles (New York City included) have lost the star) I suggest that that's a good one to emulate. Daniel Case (talk) 21:34, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Withdrawing the nomination
I don't believe I can make the requested cuts in good conscience. Just too much is removed from the article. Thank you for the reviews. upstateNYer 01:05, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Karanacs already archived the nomination several hours ago; see WP:FAC/ar. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:09, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Noted. I thought closed noms get the blue background placed around them telling users not to add anything more, and since that was missing, assumed this was still open. upstateNYer 02:35, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It will be, once the bot goes through. As a side note, Bratislava has significantly deteriorated since its promotion, and might warrant a visit to WP:FAR. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:53, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It wasn't that good to begin with. upstateNYer 03:15, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:08, 14 September 2010 [60].

Akira Kurosawa edit

dylanexpert: Dylanexpert (talk) 10:49, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... this year is Akira Kurosawa's (1910-1998) centennial year. It is also the 60th Anniversary (August 25th) of the Tokyo premiere of Rashomon, the film that opened Western eyes (and Western film markets) to the cinema of Japan and, by extension, Asian cinema as a whole. This year is also the 25th Anniversary of the premiere of his final masterpiece, Ran.

Kurosawa needs no introduction to anyone who knows or cares about the art of film. A website, They Shoot Pictures, Don't They (TSPDT), that gauges the reputations of films and filmmakers, ranks him as seventh among all directors.

This article consistently maintains a neutral point-of-view. Various views of individual films are expressed in the article with which the nominator does not agree, in the interest of presenting different facets of opinion on a work. In addition, a concise Criticisms section is included that, again, contains some negative judgments about the subject with which the nominator does not agree.

With my co-editor, Vili, we have made certain that the article is well-written and comprehensive, and all assertions have been supported by correctly-formatted citations.

Every effort has been made to make the article as brief as possible. Everything from the "Life and career" section has been eliminated that is not relevant to the main theme: the development of the subject as an artist and his struggle to realize his creative vision. Several tables and lists have been taken out of the main page and given separate articles. But Kurosawa's life was, like his films, an epic story and, as all 30 of his films are extant, a cursory summary of his output, which would be appropriate for other, less prominent, subjects, was simply not possible in this case.

As articles longer than this one (e.g. Michael Jackson) have been chosen as Featured Articles, we feel that those who will decide whether this article deserves featured status will take the importance of the subject into account.

We would very much like this article to be chosen as a Featured Article soon so that it can selected as Today's Featured Article on September 10th, the 59th Anniversary of the date that Rashomon won the Golden Lion at the Venice Film Festival, establishing Japanese cinema -- and Kurosawa -- as a major force. We will, of course, given time constraints, understand if this is not possible, but this is our current goal. Dylanexpert (talk) 10:49, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

September 10th is only eight days away, and Raul is likely to schedule the TFA for that sooner; it is rare for an article to be promoted that fast. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:23, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sept 10 TFA is scheduled. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:09, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - no dab links, no external links. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:58, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments -
  • Per the MOS, link titles shouldn't be in all capitals, even when they re in the original.
  • Current ref 241 ... this is a newspaper article, and should be formatted as such, not as you currently have it "Eugene Register-Guard..." Further bit here - newspaper title should be italicized (use work field, not publisher, in cite news template). Ealdgyth - Talk 22:56, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Current ref 251 (Battle beyond the stars..) is lacking a publisher. Also what makes this a reliable source? Further note here, IMDB is only really reliable for very basic facts about the film, which this is not being used to reference. You need to have a better source. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:56, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Current ref 252 (Powers...) lacks a publisher. Also what makes this a reliable source?
  • Current ref 253 (Skiyaki Western...) lacks a publisher. Likewise what makes this reliable? See note above. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:56, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Current ref 254 (The Clone Wars..) lacks a publisher
  • Current ref 256 (TSDT...) lacks a publisher
  • Likewise ref 257 (IMDB)...
  • Likewise ref 258 (WEBSITE). And it should have a better title, I'd think
  • Likewise 259 (KUROSAWA FILM STUDIO)...
  • Likewsie 261 (AFC...).
  • Likewise 262 (ONline MBA...)
  • Likewise 263 (FILMS...)
  • Likewise 266 (AK100..)
  • What makes http://akirakurosawa.info/ a reliable source?
  • We don't use abbreviations such as Univ. or UP in our references. Consistency is important, you have Univ. Press of Mississippi and University Press of Mississippi, be consistent.
  • Likewise, consistency on using place of publication on books, either use them always or not at all.
  • Suggest culling some of the external links - especially any that are used as refs (No need for the IMDB links or the TSPDT link, as you're using them as refs) External links should ADD information not contained in the article, not just exist as a place to add information.
  • I'd also question the lack of use of some of the further reading. Just from the title, I'd think the Martinez would be very useful and helpful to replace some of the dodgy refs I question above. I'd also think the Sorenson would be vital for aspects of his career. And many of the others would be great for themes and motifs over his career.
  • One further comment. For the sheer size of the article, I'd think the lead would be ... beefier. It really is skimpy for the proze size of the article text.
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:28, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Further bits. You misunderstood, I'm not questioning the further reading items inclusion, I'm questioning why they aren't used as sources. Several of the sources questioned above on reliablity need addressing still. And you can drop locations from the book refs if you like, that's one valid option. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:56, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I got it. And you have a good idea. So I took the Martinez book out of Further reading and put it in sources. Then, for Battle Beyond the Stars, I removed the IMDB reference and replaced it with a Martinez reference. So that's two issues solved. I changed the reference to the Eugene Register-Guard (newspaper) so that now it reads correctly in italics. I dropped locations from the book references... though frankly, it still seems silly and totally unnecessary to me. I eliminated the whole passage about the "Sukiyaki Western" (which I never really felt comfortable with including anyway) so questions about the reliability of its source are no longer relevant. "What makes http://akirakurosawa.info/ a reliable source?" - I really don't know how to answer that question. What is the standard of reliability? You, subjectively, say that IMDB is not a reliable source; I, equally subjectively, say that it (mostly) is, or at least is more accurate and complete than any other film reference source that I've ever encountered... though I eliminated the IMDB reference that you were dissatisfied with. So what is the objective standard to this very subjective question? I will elaborate on this issue on your talk page. Dylanexpert (talk) 17:46, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To determine the reliability of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. The best method is a mix of all of the above. It's their reputation for reliability that needs to be demonstrated. Please see Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches for further detailed information. Also note that since that dispatch was written, the standards for FA have changed to require "high quality" sources. IMDB isn't just me, it's a consensus from the WP:RSN, which is a good spot to go to for questions about sources. As for the locations, it's a consistency issue, making the citations consistent with all the other citations used in the article. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:35, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As for http://akirakurosawa.info, I probably cannot call it "reliable" according to Wikipedia's stringent standards, as the site's own About page modestly asserts that it is "not definitive." However, there is no such authoritative source that I can find that "proves" the assertions on the "On home video" paragraph. The vast majority of sites that mention Kurosawa DVDs want the reader to buy them, or are Top 10 lists, etc. I have always been uncomfortable anyway with the mention of all the DVD brand names in the para. So I propose just editing the paragraph down to the first two sentences, "All thirty films directed by Kurosawa are available on DVD worldwide, most of them from more than one distributor and in more than one region code. His movies are also becoming increasingly available on Blu-ray." These are simply facts: there is no single scholarly source in the Internet that "proves" them. Is this satisfactory to you?
It's perfectly acceptable for something like this to use Amazon or a similar large retailer to show that the DVDs are available. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:12, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have made the change and saved it. As far as I can see, all your objections (except debatable aesthetic ones) have now been addressed. Thanks for your input! Dylanexpert (talk) 15:28, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Very nice to see an in-depth article on such an important director. I'm finding style issues here. Just the top for the moment:

  • What's your date style? You use day-month-year in the first graf and infobox, but month-day-year in the second graf. Choose and apply consistently throughout the entire article.
  • "Throughout the 1950s and early 1960s, Kurosawa released approximately a film a year." Clumsy verb. Studios release films. Distributors release films. Directors direct films or make them.
  • "American AsianWeek magazine". Magazine names are italicized, but what is the name of this magazine? American AsianWeek magazine? AsianWeek magazine? If the latter, do you perhaps want to refer to it as "the American magazine AsianWeek"?
  • The use of spaced em-dashes is not considered proper here per our Manual of Style. Preferred style is unspaced em-dashes; spaced en-dashes are an acceptable alternative. Choose either and apply consistently throughout.
  • The caption of the infobox image is truly bizarre: "Kurosawa demonstrating swordsmanship to Toshirō Mifune (not pictured), probably on set of Sanjuro (1962)." So we know the identity of a party not pictured in the image, but we don't know when it was taken? Really? Unless this is a crop of a larger image showing Mifune (which the file page does not indicate), that is hardly credible.—DCGeist (talk) 06:13, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Responses to Comments: Thank you both for your input!
To Ealdgyth: 1) Removed ALL CAPS in those two cases, which I believe were the only ones. 2) The Eugene Register-Guard reference was a news, not a web ref: I have made the change (thanks for catching that). 3) The refs that were publisher-less have had publishers added. 4) "Web Site" is the title of Toho's foreign-language (Japanese) site, and the title just is what it is: I can't arbitrarily change it. 5) Consistently changed references to remove "Univ." and spell out "University". 6) Many books don't list place of publication on their title or copyright pages, and I'm not about to make guesses: I believe location must be optional in a book reference, not mandatory. 7) From the external references, I deleted the IMDB and TSPDT links, as you suggested. 7) The "Further reading" section was very carefully considered: the Shakespeare books (by Buchanan, Davies and Leonard) have significant content about Kurosawa because of the latter's Shakespeare-inspired films, Throne of Blood and Ran (much of the information that allowed me to include the Shakespeare volumes came from the website http://akirakurosawa.info, which is *not* a superficial fansite, but engages in significant scholarly inquiry, and is thus authoritative); Noel Burch has a very significant chapter on Kurosawa which was nonetheless not used in any of my references; and the appropriateness of the Cowie and Dresser references is self-explanatory: therefore, I am retaining all the volumes cited in "Further reading". 8) As far as the introductory section is concerned, I'm sorry, but I have a pet peeve against articles that contain intro sections that I think are too long; as a devoted reader of Wikipedia, when the article is as detailed as mine is, I don't want the intro section to be long as well; I want it to be concise and succinct. Every single statement made in those three paragraphs is one that no reputable film scholar would dispute, yet they are all later explained in the main text and supported with references for non-scholars. I don't think that section should be "beefier": I think it's just right.
To DCGeist: 1) Made dating consistent in article and infobox (Month-Day-Year). 2) Changed "released a film a year" to "directed a film a year". 3) Removed "American" from "American AsianWeek"; 4) For the file page of the photo used in the infobox, I changed the summary (under "Portion used") to make clear that Mifune was in the uncropped version of the photo. (No, I don't know the exact date on which the picture was taken, but I can tell from internal evidence -- the age and costumes of the participants in the full photo and other photos obviously taken during the same shoot, the appearance of the set, etc -- that the picture had to have been taken in the early 1960's, with Sanjuro rather than Yojimbo the more likely film, and I gave the release date of the former film, 1962, as the last plausible year in which it could have been taken.) Dylanexpert (talk) 17:15, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Images: Many image issues. Just looking at the first half of the article:

Comment: The Reputation among filmmakers (and arguably the Homages and allusions) subsection, as well as the Legacy section are currently grab bags of stubby, bullet-point-like grafs. They need to be reworked for more flowing prose.—DCGeist (talk) 19:52, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox: Due to the impending merge of {{Infobox actor}}, you may want to switch to {{Infobox person}} now and make the most of the extra fields in that template. PC78 (talk) 17:54, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I feel as confused and frustrated as if I were invited on public property and then arrested for trespassing. The whole purpose of a Commons section is to include in it images that anybody can take and put in their articles without challenge. If I use the Commons section and am challenged for it, what’s the point? At the same time, I can see your reasoning that these particular images, which might at first have seemed to be “free,” may not be. So my argument would be that, because of their ambiguity, perhaps I might keep the images unless they are challenged by someone claiming to hold the copyright for them. If you don’t accept that, then I will “rehost” the images as you indicated… but you will have to let me know how to do that.
For the images of Akira Kurosawa himself (there are actually two disputable images, not one) I grant that these are probably not free images, but again, they shouldn’t have been in the Commons in the first place. (Who’s minding the store anyway?) I’ve contacted the New York Public Library website from which the images originated and asked if I could use them in my article without a fee. They said that they did not require a fee, but that I have to find out about copyrights by third parties. So I guess I will have to rehost these also as Fair Use images.
The Yojimbo and Red Beard images already have fair use rationales for the articles in which they originally appeared. Do I have to write a whole other rationale for *my* article?
I will rewrite the rationale for the Tora! Tora! Tora! image to make it a bit more detailed.
I would argue that the “Reputation among other filmmakers” subsection represents a nice change of pace from the “flowing” style of the rest of the article. And I believe you exaggerate somewhat when you describe the whole thing as “currently grab bags of stubby, bullet-point-like grafs.” For example, the Robert Altman paragraph “flows” fairly well. However, in a couple of instances (Spielberg and Scorsese), the grafs are not written as complete sentences, so I will change those.
Since you used the word “arguably” in your description of the “Homages and allusions” subsection, I am taking that as a subjective judgment and will keep that part as is.  : - )
Forgot to sign. Dylanexpert (talk) 22:16, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia's policies on image use and non-free content can lead to frustration, but they are policies and we're all obliged to follow them. Especially if you want your work recognized as among Wikipedia's best, you should be aware that it's your responsibility to familiarize yourself with those policies and what they require from you. Here are the two basic pages: Wikipedia:Image use policy and Wikipedia:Non-free content—the second is a guideline page, but it incorporates the full text of our non-free-content policy, while providing more detail and examples.
I hope you've gotten over the shock of realizing that the Commons, though a wonderful resource, is not an example of perfection in this universe. While the vast majority of items there are indeed free, it is a volunteer site just like this (the Commons is organizationally related to Wikipedia via the Wikimedia Foundation, but it is by no means a "section" of Wikipedia), and people make mistakes—there are all sorts of items there that don't belong there. (Sometimes that's not due to a mistake by the volunteer who introduced the image—copyright laws and interpretations of those laws can change, as well.) It's your responsibility to check the licensing status of each and every image you want to include in an article here to make sure that it's correct. You ask, "If I use the Commons section and am challenged for it, what’s the point?" The relevant point is simply that you didn't do your job—evidently, you didn't know that it was your job to verify images' licenses before bringing an article to FAC; now you do. Commons remains a great, though imperfect, resource for free images—greater for some subject fields and eras than others, it should be kept in mind. You say, "So my argument would be that, because of their ambiguity, perhaps I might keep the images unless they are challenged by someone claiming to hold the copyright for them." Sorry, no, that's not how it works. First, and specifically, there's no "ambiguity." The information in the licensing tags on the Commons pages of the three screenshots makes very clear that they are under copyright and do not presently belong on Commons. Second, and generally, we do not sit and wait for challenges to patently erroneous claims that items are in the public domain—if something appears in all likelihood to be under copyright, we treat it as if it is under copyright.
Yes, you will have to rehost the image of Kurosawa from 1957 on the set of The Lower Depths if you intend to use it. The Commons image of Kurosawa on the set of Throne of Blood, apparently a publicity photo, was evidently taken before December 31, 1956, and is in the public domain if it was published before that date. However, the movie was not released until January 15, 1957, so while it is certainly possible, it is not safe to assume that the photo was published before Dec. 31, 1956. Unless evidence can be found that it was, yes, it too must be rehosted as a fair use image if it is to be used here. By rehosting, I simply mean uploading the images to Wikipedia as fair use content—I see you did that with the infobox image, so you obviously know how. If you want to be a good Commons citizen and assist in removing the inappropriate hosted images from there, by all means, but this is not the venue to get into that. On the other hand, an issue you will have to grapple with here is whether the inclusion of three fair use images each of whose primary purpose is to show Akira Kurosawa abides by clause #3a of our non-free content policy: "Minimal usage. Multiple items of non-free content are not used if one item can convey equivalent significant information."
You write, "The Yojimbo and Red Beard images already have fair use rationales for the articles in which they originally appeared. Do I have to write a whole other rationale for *my* article?" Yes, you must. That's a basic requirement of our policy. Here's the guideline page that goes into greater detail on the matter: Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guideline.
You write, "I will rewrite the rationale for the Tora! Tora! Tora! image to make it a bit more detailed." My suggestion that its rationale "should be improved to discuss its function in the context of the article's critical commentary on the film" was actually intended as a hint that, under our policy, it is not a particularly effective choice of image to represent the movie in an article about Kurosawa. I am sorry that I was not more explicit in making that point. While our non-free content guideline does support the use of "Film and television screen shots: For critical commentary and discussion of the cinema and television", our best practices urge us to find screenshots that directly support or expand on textual commentary. I'm afraid that someone who draws a harder line on non-free image use than I is likely to identify this image as "decoration." On the one hand, it appears to have no direct relationship to the text beyond the fact that it's an image from the film. On the other, it should be possible to find an image from the film that does inform us more about Kurosawa's style and/or methods, shouldn't it?
You write, "I would argue that the 'Reputation among other filmmakers' subsection represents a nice change of pace from the 'flowing' style of the rest of the article". I disagree. The shift from full-fledged, conventional paragraphs to a style in which over half of the section's 13 paragraphs are no longer than a sentence (and, as you note, in several cases, not even a grammatical sentence) appears odd, unmotivated, and unprofessional. This is similarly true of the Legacy section, if not to the same extent. This "change of pace"—"nice" or not—does not represent writing of a "professional standard", as required by our criteria.—DCGeist (talk) 00:24, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have completely revised the "Reputation among filmmakers" subsection to make the implicit structure of that subsection explicit and to organize it into coherent paragraphs so that it reads better. (If you think that passage was "odd, unmotivated, and unprofessional" before I just changed it, you should check out the article's View history to see what a mess it was when I first started work on the article.) I have deleted the "Homages" section because I had absolutely no idea how to make it "flow" and it just wasn't worth the hassle. I will have to get to the problems with the Legacy section and the images later.
I do hope that you have exhausted your objections to the article, but in case you haven't, I would appreciate it if you would give them all to me now, because I will be traveling from the middle of next week and will have little to no time to work on this project then. Dylanexpert (talk) 03:06, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To date I have merely raised those issues that leapt out at me from a quick glance at the article—concerning the lede, the images, the obviously rough sections at the bottom (Reputation among filmmakers looks much better now—good job—and I just edited Legacy myself). I am afraid I have not yet had time to read through the entire article, giving it the careful attention it deserves. I look forward to doing so, but I will not have time myself until next weekend.—DCGeist (talk) 05:59, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. It is great to see the article here, and being given a good deal of work. Without reading the text in detail I see a few key issues:
  • Image problems need to be fully resolved. There appear to be images that are probably still in copyright but which are being claimed as free, and non-free use images where I'm not sure they are necessary to illustrate this article (and would therefore fail one of the non-free use criteria). The example I noticed was the screenshot from Tora! Tora! Tora!, which could be justified for the article on that film, but I doubt the same can be said for the article about the director.
  • Sourcing problem. I noticed that Kurosawa's 1983 autobiographical work is extensively quoted, including in places where either an independent source is needed, or the WP article language needs to be changed to reflect the fact that it is reporting Kurosawa's view. Example (footnote 49): "It was Kurosawa who, with his mentor Yamamoto, had intervened to persuade Toho to sign Mifune, during an audition in which the young man greatly impressed Kurosawa, but managed to alienate most of the other judges."
  • There are some one sentence paras that don't reflect an appropriate style and need to be consolidated.
  • Care with claims. Example: "Many commentators regard Seven Samurai as the ultimate expression of the artist’s heroic ideal. Joan Mellen’s comments are typical of this view..." - however Mellen is the only cited source. So how do we know that "many commentators" have this view of Seven Samurai? hamiltonstone (talk) 01:36, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The extreme overuse of non-free images has got to go. It made this list and has even more since that report was run. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:36, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's extremely unfortunate (not to mention careless) that you chose to (double) oppose my site without even bothering to read the previous commentators. If you had, you would have realized that many of your objections had been voiced already, and if you had checked out the "View history" you would realize that even on the day that you posted here, I was already addressing the problems you have mentioned. When I get finished, all the non-free images will have Fair Use rationales. (You seem to get upset with non-free images whether they have Fair Use rationales or not.) Please note that many of these images were taken from Commons when I was naive enough to assume that on Commons every image was free (as indeed they are supposed to be). Since the problem was pointed out to me, I have made every effort to rectify it, but I'm not finished yet. As for your objection to "one sentence paras", please look again: I doubt if you'll find them now.
I will address your other objections when I have time and energy to do so. Dylanexpert (talk) 03:40, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure of your comments are directed toward Hammersoft, myself, or both of us. I have struck my concern about the single-sentence paras. I'm not quote sure why you are concerned that some of the objections had already been voiced. As the FAC process continues and comes to a conclusion, the delegates who close the noms have to make an assessment of the consensus of editors around whether the article meets the FA criteria. I was deliberately adding/concurring re the image issues others have raised. On another point, (again not sure whether you are addressing Hammersoft or myself), but I'm not concerned about non-free use images per se; rather I am concerned not just that they have a Fair Use rationale, but that the rationale is adequate to defend their use in this particular article consistent with the guidelines. The only image I checked out in any detail was the Tora! Tora! Tora! image. The fair use rationale currently includes this: "Screenshot from a copyrighted Hollywood motion picture". However the caption says "all footage he had already shot was scrapped." That being the case, I'm not sure how the image can be from the released motion picture. In any case, I don't think a still image from a moving film for which the director was fired will be capable of meeting the non-free use criteria. I'd delete this image and focus on the rationales for those images that are most closely tied to the article about the director himself: an example might be File:Akira Kurosawa Throne of Blood.jpeg, in which he is pictured actually directing. Under replaceability, the current text states "As the motion picture appears to be in copyright, it is not possible to replace the image with a free image." However, the image itself is not from the motion picture, so this doesn't make sense. But I agree it is a very promising image to try and include in the article, so i'd work on tightening these up. For what it's worth, you have my sympathies for the size of the task. I have used a small number of non-free images in FACs and it has always been a struggle to get them exactly right. hamiltonstone (talk) 05:04, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Dylanexpert: You are correct. I didn't read much of the oppose commentary. In this case, I don't need to do so. This article currently contains 23 non-free images. That is an extreme amount of non-free imagery. 23 non-free images places this article in the top 15 of all articles on Wikipedia in terms of non-free content usage...something we discourage. To be an article in the top (rather bottom 10% of 1% of 1% of all articles is excessive and extreme. Extreme usage requires extreme cases. What makes this article so different that it requires that much non-free imagery use in order to be able to adequately convey its meaning in an encyclopedic way? This is nothing more than a biography of a director. I'm not seeing a strong reason, much less an extreme reason, why we must include so much non-free content.
  • This does not even get to the issue of whether images have rationales. It's not enough that images simply have rationales. They must be acceptable rationales. There's many rationales among these 23 images that are seriously lacking. "To provide an image of the actor Toshiro Mifune, who became a film star in Japan as a result of this film, as indicated in the article's text." (File:Drunken-Angel-1a.jpg). To provide an image? I.e., decoration. We don't use fair use images decoratively. "To illustrate this groundbreaking film which introduced Japanese cinema to the West." (File:Rashomon 1a.jpg). Again, decoratively. Is there something significant about this scene from that movie that was commented on in press or other secondary source of the time? If so, then it should be noted in the rationale...but it isn't. It's just a scene, apparently randomly chosen, if we are to believe the rationale. "To illustrate Akira Kurosawa at the time the film was made." File:Akira Kurosawa Throne of Blood.jpeg Again, to illustrate. Decoration. Was there something radically different about his appearance at the time the film was made that was noted in secondary sources? I'm just scratching at the surface here, and this is not a thorough review of all the images. It's blatantly obvious there are serious failings throughout these images.
  • The amount of usage is extreme, and it MUST be trimmed before it reaches featured article status. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:48, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unfortunately, I think Hammersoft is right. I've removed some of the images that seemed to me most markedly 'decorative': that is, they added nothing essential to our knowledge of the director that could not be adequately conveyed by the text. The non-free use rationale issue remains for all the other images - i've just started to narrow the field to the more significant images around which there might be prospect of some legitimate discussion about use. I expect there will however need to be more culling. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:05, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • FWIW I would also note that, whether or not the films, including the early ones, were published in compliance with all US formalities, none of them are in the public domain in either US or Japan (see also Japanese copyright law and its sources). Not that anyone has suggested they are: I'm just pre-empting any discussion of that as an option for dealing with any of the images (there was also some old discussion on the article talk page). hamiltonstone (talk) 00:17, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have started a thread on the subject at the article talk page. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:45, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:08, 14 September 2010 [61].

William H. Prescott edit

Nominator(s): Claritas § 10:04, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've been working on this article pretty much single-handedly since May, and it's gone from a weak start class to GA. I think the coverage and sourcing clearly meets the FA criteria, and I doubt that anything other than minor changes need to be made to other aspects of the article for it to meet the respective criteria. Claritas § 10:04, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments

  • Notes
    • Page ranges should be prefaced "pp." and should have dashes not hyphens
    • Citations to "Sullivan" should specify whether (1972) or (2009)
      • The 2009 Sullivan has disappeared, so the issue doesn't arise, but refs 9 and 13 should be consistent
    • Publisher missing, ref. 136
    • What makes http://mybalefamily.com/FamilyTree/Prescott-p/i134.htm a reliable source?
      • Can you explain how you have fixed this?
        • I replaced the cite with one to state records. Claritas § 16:15, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bibliography
    • Johnson and Brown not a cited work, should be listed as further reading
    • Likewise Lockwood
    • Likewise Ticknor (1861), I think
    • Likewise Palmer
    • Space required between "Peck" and "Harry"
    • Sullivan (2009) missing a forename
    • ISBNs missing from Peck and both Sullivan books
    • No citations to Robert Anderson Wilson. Is there a reason why he is singled out for a redlink?
    • No citations to Winsor

Otherwise sources look OK. Brianboulton (talk) 14:58, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed all. Claritas § 15:35, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Is there an issue with it ? I like that template, and some journal articles use the same/similar format. Claritas § 08:58, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I personally quite liked the format, but it may be contrary to MOS:ALLCAPS Brianboulton (talk) 15:59, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It looks fine. The MOS seems to be more concerned with all caps in the main text of the work, and I don't think there are any difficulties in reading it, so I'd prefer to ignore that rule and keep the present format. Claritas § 16:05, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
See Wikipedia:MOS#Keep_markup_simple and MOS:ALLCAPS is not confined to writing within the body of the article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:18, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed the smallcaps, although I did take a fancy to it myself, too :P. Not a big deal, though. —fetch·comms 03:50, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. In the Legacy section it says "Prescott himself was the origin of several now common elements of academic writing, including the use of bibliographical citations and critical notes.", cited to Gardiner. Now, I am intrigued by this: Edward Gibbon famously used footnotes/citations/critical notes in the 18th century, and Anthony Grafton seems to think the scholarly footnote originated with German scholars (I have examples of such citations from decades before Prescott on my shelves myself). Buchraeumer (talk) 22:37, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Claritas has informed me that: "Gardiner does explicitly say that Prescott was the first historian to use citations etc. However, Gardiner's work is particularly centred on America, and I therefore think Buchraeumer is probably right - Gibbons did use footnotes/critical notes (although not to the extent which Prescott does)."
The wording has been changed in both the last line of the lede (to "Prescott has become one of the most widely translated American historians, and was an important figure in the development of history as a rigorous academic discipline.") and the first two lines of the "Legacy" section (to "Prescott's work has remained popular and influential to the present day, and his meticulous use of sources, bibliographical citations and critical notes was unprecedented among American historians."). —fetch·comms 03:50, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am absolutely fine with the new wording as regards this point! While I found the Legacy section very good, I am afraid, some earlier sections are a quite confusing for a reader relatively unfamiliar with the intellectual life of the era. For many personalities I had to use the link. In the Isabella section (for example) passages about the work and other details of his life alternate too much IMO, it's really confusing. My impression is that the article still suffers too much from the problem of organizing the material into a logical (and understandable) overall narrative or structure. Buchraeumer (talk) 10:55, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Working on this. I've reordered a few things, done more copyediting, etc. in the meantime. For the most part, I think the article reads fine except for bits in the Career sections, especially the early career, as you mentioned. —fetch·comms 04:22, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Claritas has been blocked and has indicated that he wants this FAC closed, but I am requesting that it please stay open for a bit longer, as I am currently in private correspondence with Claritas and would like to discuss a few things (including the possibility of me finishing this up) first. —fetch·comms 22:08, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • He has indicated that I may finish up this FAC for him. —fetch·comms 03:20, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Image review: Images are verifiably in the public domain—no issues. Jappalang (talk) 07:59, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:08, 14 September 2010 [62].

Mount Fee edit

Nominator(s): Volcanoguy (talk) 08:12, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I finally recreated Mount Fee's article after doing months of information gathering. There is apparently not much known about its geology because it has not been studied in detail and its age and timing of volcanic events are not exactally known either because they remain undated. I could not find anything about Fee's volcanic hazards (e.g. the danger from future eruptions). So I suspect GSC volcanologists are not worried about future eruptions; it may even be extinct given its circumstances; the current mountain is the remnants of a larger volcanic feature. Anyway I suspect the article is fairly complete. Volcanoguy 08:12, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 09:31, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: needs some copyediting at least. I think the worst passage is probably "Mount Fee covers a volume of at least 0.3 km (0.19 mi)" (here "covers" implies an area, which clashes with both "volume" and the linear measures "0.3 km", "0.19 mi"), but there are plenty of places where the text needs work. --Avenue (talk) 10:05, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. Volcanoguy 15:42, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, even that specific passage is not fixed. It is slightly improved, in that the word covers is no longer there, but the article still claims Mt Fee "has a volume of at least 0.3 km (0.19 mi)". I have tracked down the source cited for that sentence, and it doesn't support this claim, so I have now requested a source. --Avenue (talk) 09:52, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Removed. Volcanoguy 12:46, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - in lead - "At least two major summits constitute the north and south portions of the ridge, with the southern tower being the highest." How many major summits are there on the ridge ? Presumably it doesn't vary much, seeing as the volcano isn't active. Claritas § 10:45, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. I have no idea how many summits it has but two major summits lie on top of the ridge. There are several minor peaks that form the lava spines discussed in the article. Volcanoguy 15:42, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comment: all sources look OK. Brianboulton (talk) 14:15, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support - Overall, a short, but well-written article.
  • This mountain ridge represents the base of a north–south trending volcanic field Mount Fee occupies. - which ... occupies
Fixed. Volcanoguy 23:57, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mount Fee is one of the southernmost of more than 10 volcanoes occupying the Mount Cayley volcanic field. - This sentence could use a rewrite.
Fixed. Volcanoguy 23:57, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The volcanic belt has formed as a result of going subduction of the Juan de Fuca Plate under the North American Plate at the Cascadia subduction zone along the British Columbia Coast.[3] - ongoing
Fixed. Volcanoguy 23:57, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • As periods of glaciation covered the ancestral volcano, it removed much of the original outer cone of pyroclastic material. - Verb tense agreement. I don't think periods is the right word, either.
I just removed "periods of" so it reads as As glaciation covered the ancestral volcano, it removed much of the original outer cone of pyroclastic material. What do you mean by verb tense agreement? Volcanoguy 23:57, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Its volcanics remain undated, but its large amount of dissection and evidence of glacai ice overriding the volcano indicates that it formed more than 75,000 years ago before the Wisconsinan Glaciation. - but the large amount of dissection and evidence of glacial ice at the volcano, versus overriding the volcano.
Overriding is a better term. During glaciations the volcano was buried under glacial ice of the Wisconsinan Glaciation. Volcanoguy 23:57, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The remaining products from Fee's earliest volcanic activity is a minor portion of pyroclastic rock. - Verb tense agreement; also, I think you could use a better noun than portion, as that makes it sound like the activity is food.
Food? I changed "portion" to "outcrop" anyway. Volcanoguy 23:57, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is evidence of explosive volcanism during Fee's eruptive history, - Pipe link explosive eruptions?
Yup. I thought there was already a link to the explosive eruption article but I guess not. Volcanoguy 23:57, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cultural ceremonial use, hunting, trapping and plant gathering occured in the Mount Garibaldi area, - Assuming ceremonial use of the mountain, but that's not clear.
Removed. Volcanoguy 23:57, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • In September 1928, Mount Fee was named by British mountaineer Tom Fyles after Charles Fee (1865–1927), who was a member of the British Columbia Mountaineering Club in Vancouver at the time.[11] - Doesn't make sense if he died in 1927.
It does not say the namer (Tom Flyes) died in 1927. The year refers to Charles Fee, the person Fee takes its name from. Volcanoguy 23:57, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Even though it is a short article, its scope is large for such a small volcano. Volcanoguy 23:57, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Image issue: all images are fine, except for File:Mount Fee.jpg. Initially, I was of the opinion that it only required an administrator to confirm the original license on Wikipedia (the upload log does not state it). However, I found this, which was uploaded to the web as early as 2005. The image on Wikipedia is a crop from Michael Coyle's photograph (which supposedly can be seen in full glory if you are a paid member of the bivouac site). The copyright status of this image should be clarified and resolved if the image is to be used on this project. Jappalang (talk) 05:56, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Notice the image's author is the one that uploaded it on Commons. Volcanoguy 12:46, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No. Tsylos uploaded it to Wikipedia on 2007-02-18 01:56. Hike395 transferred it to Commons on 13:14, 23 April 2007. Nowhere is it stated or verifiable that Michael Coyle is either of these two users. Jappalang (talk) 03:33, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for now, sorry.
  • While much of the article is quite readable, the prose is still not up to FA standard in several places, with the wording often being cumbersome or worse. Some illustrative examples: "The conduit for which these lava flows originated from...", "The volcanic edifice ancestral Mount Fee represented...", "It is nearly vertical in structure...", and "The ... volcanics composing Mount Fee contain ... 15% vesicular textures" (should be vesicles). The final section on Monitoring is particularly muddled.
  • There are still multiple spelling and grammar mistakes (especially singular/plural disagreement), e.g. "crevice that give them", "abgle", "The remaining products ... is", "significant support ... have resulted".
  • Some inaccuracies remain, e.g. stratovolcanoes can reach heights of much more than 2,438.4 m (which is a ridiculously overprecise figure, BTW), and the bit saying "About 25% of the volcanics contain crystal content" would be more accurately phrased as "the crystal content of the volcanics is about 25%" (and the source cited says "up to", not "about").
  • Some causal linkages are unexplained and seem dubious or unclear, e.g. the "Therefore" in the Eruptive history section, and the linkage between earthquakes and volcanism in the Monitoring section: "with the existence of earthquakes, further volcanism is expected".
  • Another minor issue is that the {{convert}} seems to omit &nbsp; before units, so the article fails to follow WP:MOS where this template is used. This seems to be a known problem with the template (see Template_talk:Convert#Nbsp.3F). While this isn't ideal, hopefully it will be fixed eventually, and I wouldn't oppose based on that. --Avenue (talk) 11:43, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Avenue, as a member of WP Volcanoes, it seems to be a bit awkward seeing another WP Volcano member giving points to be fixed if they understand what is being discussed even if it is relatively poorly writen. Why not do it yourself and work as a WP Volcano member? Because everything in the article seems quite clear to me. So I am likely not the one to do the copyediting. The reason I used 2,438.4 m is because the source uses feet; apparently 8,000 feet equels to 2,438.4 m according to the Convert template. Volcanoguy 13:42, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I know it can be hard to see what parts of one's writing might be unclear to others. That's one reason why an article often benefits from going through peer review, even if the original author knows much more about the topic than the reviewer.
I'm sorry I haven't yet been able to provide more hands-on help with this article. I have had my hands full with other tasks lately (an FLC, an FAR, and a current event), all also part of WP Volcanoes or my other main project, WP New Zealand. All I have been able to do for this FAC was look in at the beginning, and come back and review the article more carefully yesterday. I hope I will have time to come back to this article again in a week or so. I have a wikibreak scheduled in two weeks time, and I'm hoping to resolve the other tasks before then.
Also, please realise that copyediting is not always trivial. I might understand most of the statements in this article on one level, but the motivations for various statements and the connections made between them are still obscure to me. To take a simple example, I wasn't sure what meaning you intended the reader to draw from the 8000 ft stratovolcano figure. Is it that Mount Fee is close to 8000 ft in height itself? Or (now that I've checked the source) does the 8000 ft refer to the stratovolcano's height above its base (in which case our text should be made clearer), and so imply that the ancestral Mt Fee stratovolcano could have been vastly bigger than the current remnant? How high is the non-volcanic base that Mt Fee is built on? Is there more specific evidence we could cite about the size of ancestral Mt Fee, rather than fall back on a very general figure?
I've fixed a few of the simpler problems (and struck them out above). Again, I'm sorry I can't provide much more help with this at present. --Avenue (talk) 01:03, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:08, 14 September 2010 [63].

Janet Jackson's Rhythm Nation 1814 edit

Nominator(s): The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 07:26, 30 August 2010 (UTC), Ga Be 19 19:14, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... I am the primary editor. I originally planned to nominate this article right after Control (Janet Jackson album) passed FAC, but went on a wikibreak. The article has had a peer review and has been copyedited by editors other than myself. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 07:26, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Co-nominator, relatively new on Wikipedia, requested help in the nomination process. Ga Be 19 19:14, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—no dead external links, but the link to Schirmer Books leads to a dab page. Ucucha 09:58, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Removed wikilink since there is not a direct page to link with. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 08:14, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments

  • Consistency: generally "retrieved", but ref 21 and everything from 74 onward has "Retrieved".
  • Ref 80: Note source is in German
  • Ref 81: What makes http://www.chartstats.com/albuminfo.php?id=8600 a reliable source?
  • Ref 82: As CRIA is an organisation, not a printed source, it should not be italicised.
    • Unfortunately, this site has gone down, "while we develop our new web site", so I suggest this is replaced. Brianboulton (talk) 16:53, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Same applies to the sources in refs 83-85

Otherwise all sources look OK. Brianboulton (talk) 15:41, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe I've taken care of the sourcing problem. Replaced a few links and changed some of the values used in the templates. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 08:14, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment regarding criterion three: File:BlackCatsample.ogg and File:Janet Jackson - Rhythm Nation.ogg - Word for word identical purpose statments. NFCC#3A - "Multiple items of non-free content are not used if one item can convey equivalent significant information". If the purpose is exactly the same, why are two needed? Also, neither 129 nor 254kbps is low resolution (NFCC#3B). Эlcobbola talk 19:18, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Added additional rationale to show the variation in sound found in the two samples. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 08:14, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

General comments: This is a long and pretty comprehensive article, obviously the product of hard work. I'm not well versed in Janet Jackson's music, or of this kind of music generally, so I apologise if some of my comments read naively. There are rather a lot of smallish prose niggles, which make me think that the article needs a full copyedit pass. I'm not through yet, but here are some points to work on:-

  • Lead: I have done a couple of copyedits. Can you look at the following points:-
    • "Although critics viewed the album's theme as transparent..." What did the critics mean by this?
    • "soft balladry": could there be a link to one of the sections of the ballad artice, to help readers understand this term?
    • It's not necessary to list the titles of the seven songs in the lead.
    • Capital C in certified?
    • I'd put "fourteen million" in numeric form, as you have with other large numbers later in the article.
  • Outside the lead, some general points, mainly prose issues
    • The "conception" section is rather crowded out, by the tail of the infobox and two quote boxes. I'm not sure that either quote box is really necessary; certainly no more than one.
    • The title does not read like a "composite" of the pledge and the creed. You could say the title was "drawn from", or perhaps "inspired by", but it isn't a composite.
    • "Complete lyrics were included in the album." Not sure what that means; copies of the lyrics?
    • References to "Jam" or "Jimmy Jam" read unencyclopedically, and should be made more formal
    • "Author Ken Hughes of Keyboard Magazine notes that although considered to be crude by modern standards,..." What exactly is considered crude, and by whom?
    • Is it appropriate to have critics' comments at this stage of the article?
    • "whose", not "who's"
    • "the album debut at number 28" Presumably "debuted"?
    • "1,000,000 units" and "four million copies" in the same paragraph (and "fourteen million" and "four million")

Brianboulton (talk) 22:25, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe I've addressed your points, barring: 1) Jimmy Jam (Like Sting, Madonna or Lady Gaga) known exclusively by his stage name rather than his birth name, so I'm not sure how you'd would reword those statements. 2) The critic's comments are included for his explanation of the structure of the music, not its reception. 3) Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the rule is words over "ten" are written numerically and words under "ten" are spelled out. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 07:04, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:08, 14 September 2010 [64].

Limbo (video game) edit

Nominator(s): MASEM (t) 00:54, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Unsure of his sister's fate, a boy enters the unknown For a video game which this was really the only text that was given to the player outside of menu screens, and could be completed in 3 hours, Limbo generated a surprising amount of buzz that larger productions would only love to see. I will note that the GA reviewer, J Milburn, is seeing if we can free up the game screen images directly with the developers but I do not see that as a potential problem for FA promotion of this article; if it happens, great, otherwise, the images are rationaled for NFC use. I do expect this game to acquire some end-of-year nods but the reception section is set up to handle the influx if necessary. MASEM (t) 00:54, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - no dab links or dead external links. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:18, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cool, I think this would make a great featured article. The little changes you've made in the last few days (splitting the sections, moving some of the plot stuff, things like that) have made a real improvement. Just some random all-over-the-place comments-

  • "Prior to its release, Limbo was awarded both the "Technical Excellence" and "Excellence in Visual Art" titles at the Independent Games Festival at the 2010 Game Developers Conference.[46]" Very short paragraph- you could perhaps expand it by saying other nominations, or a quote, or something. I strongly agree that Limbo will no doubt get more awards yet, but, for now at least...
  • "that can otherwise has been seen in previous platformers." That sounds like Wikipedia is endorsing that view- perhaps something like "which he claims can otherwise be seen in previous platformers."
  • Are Category:Microsoft games, Category:Xbox 360 games and Category:Xbox 360 Live Arcade games not all redundant to each other? Would the last not be the only one needed?
  • Could we get that lovely tagline in somewhere? I see we already have. Annoying the infobox doesn't have room for it."
  • "of The Globe and Mail summarized his" If you're sticking with British English, summarise is normally spelt with an s over here.
  • "from repeating trying dead-end solutions" repeatedly trying?
  • "fewer than five deaths." Isn't it actually five or fewer, or fewer than six?
  • "one achievements challenges" Spare s?
  • "that disappeared once the player has crossed it" Tense mess up. Present disappear would be better. Alternative, have disappeared, but the passive voice usually isn't a good thing. (Additionally, perhaps refer to them as "who"?)

A few little bits to be getting on with- good luck! J Milburn (talk) 14:35, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

All the small language pieces have been changed. I completely forgot to check how the game did at E3 and was able to add more to the awards "paragraph" so that it's better now. As for the categories, that issue comes up every so often at the VG project, but per the most recent discussion [65] and explained through WP:DUPCAT. I do note that Category:Microsoft Games is not in the same "hierarchy" as the other three because MS neither makes all games for the Xbox 360, nor only makes games only for the Xbox 360. --MASEM (t) 15:50, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments

  • Ref 3: "Rock Paper Shotgun" is a blog. What makes it reliable? (Also 34)
  • Ref 28: "MTV" should not be italicised. Likewise 30 & 49 (G4TV)
  • Ref 29 (Cinema Blend): I'm a little concerned by the message carried by this source: "Don't take us too seriously". Doesn't this suggest unreliability?
  • Ref 38: The format should be adjusted to conform with that used for the other references. If the source is in German, this should be stated.

Otherwise sources look OK Brianboulton (talk) 18:19, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rock Paper Shotgun is a blog run by four UK journalists with existing background as video game reporters prior to that. The specific person in both sources, Kieron Gillen has an established background in this field, so he has strong reliability. Ref 3 is an interview with one of the game's developers; Ref 34 is more a re-reporting of information from other, less reliable blogs to summarize an event.
Cinema Blend's reviews are generally considered expert; the article used here - a pre-review of sorts - is only to support the list of games that Limbo has been compared to. I believe I can replace it with the A.V. Club review (I have to double check which game is cited by which article), and will do that if there's a problem, but I don't see a pressing need right now. (I'm not opposed to fixing it though, don't get me wrong).
The CNet Germany ref is made up from the same cite web template. There is no author listed on the article, so the cite web drops to that format (same as, say, Ref #23 (Edge) and #31 (Toronto Sun).
All other changes fixed. --MASEM (t) 18:40, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Argh, not sure if I'll have time to do a proper review with this spotty internet access. Anyhow, some quick things I noticed:
    • "The game is presented through dark, greyscale graphics and with minimalist ambient sounds, creating an "eerie" and "haunting" environment."→If these are the words of a critic, I'd rather frame them as such so we don't seem to be throwing out quotes for no reason.
    • And... that's it, for now, really. I saw some minor grammar issues, but nothing I can't fix when I have my own time instead of wasting everyone's posting laundry lists. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 15:41, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • They're words of several critics but difficult to source to one in that fashion, so I've removed the quotes but made sure of a couple references to back this statement up. --MASEM (t) 15:59, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support; a fine article. J Milburn (talk) 22:27, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Actually, just come across this- apparently, the gameplay section is meant to come before the plot. Seems counter-intuitive to me, but maybe that's just because of the kind of gamer I am... J Milburn (talk) 22:39, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • That's not a hard-set guideline, it really depends a lot on how well you can separate plot from gameplay. For something like, say, Doom, where the story is trivial then yes as you get the key detail ("it is a video game that does this...") down first. Here, we have plot/gameplay that are tightly bound, so setting the stage for what's going on first makes it easier to talk about gameplay without repeating plot details. I had the same problem before on The World Ends With You in that trying to explain the gameplay before hitting the plot made it really difficult to the tightness of everything. --MASEM (t) 22:42, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • I agree, was just throwing it out there. Still full support; great subject matter for a FA. J Milburn (talk) 22:44, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Object - I think this has some of the makings of a featured article, but there seem to be problems with criteria 1a and 1c at the minimum. For 1a, the text needs to be edited/proofread just for grammatical issues. For example, there are problems with parallel structure in the lead: "challenging the player to guide an unnamed boy through dangerous environments and avoiding"; note "to guide" and "avoiding". There are also confusing focus shifts: "The developers built the game's puzzles expecting the player to fail several times, killing the boy character in gruesome manners, before coming upon the correct solution, calling the style of play 'trial-and-death'." You have "expecting", "killing", "coming", and "calling", but you variously refer to the developers, the player, player, and then the developers again. Confusing. These types of problems are pervasive in the lead and body text. For 1c: You state in the lead that journalists compared the work to "film noir" so I checked for support of that statement later in the article. There is one article ([66]) where the writers states the game "screams noir" which doesn't mention film at all so is hardly a comparison. The other source ([67]) is actually quoting the game director, so that's not a journalist. More language problems there as well: "Jensen used inspiration of several films, including film noir"; well, "film noir" is hardly a film, right? --Spike Wilbury (talk) 18:29, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, there's plenty of cited reviews in the Reception section (see Presentation) that connect the game to "film noir", and you can clearly see it from a google search as well (though again, I've included the reliable sources already). I have tried to go through and fix the parallel structure and a few other things but I am not seeing any major problems on the language beyond what a few useful points should be able to fix. --MASEM (t) 19:39, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm not sure I understand your rebuttal to the film noir issue. If you state something in the lead, it has to be stated in the text as well, backed up with a citation. Your text contains two other mentions of the term and neither has a citation that backs up the statement you made in the lead. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 19:52, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Well, it's more that many of the reviews highlighted the film noir aspect, and thus mentioned this with one ref example, followed by other examples that delve more into the presentation from other refs would be appropriate (it's hard to consider it a "contentious" statement that needs explicit sourcing) However, taking the advice, I've put in two additional sources that make the "film noir" connection on the line in the reception section. --MASEM (t) 00:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • OK, thanks. I'll try to look again tonight or tomorrow and see what progress has been made. Do you think you could get someone to go through the writing and smooth it out? --Spike Wilbury (talk) 01:32, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
            • I've been able to have a fresh set of eyes review the text for copyediting. --MASEM (t) 18:35, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
              • I only see a handful of tweaks and I'm afraid that's not going to be sufficient. Maintain objection based on 1a; for example, starting in Development, "and instead directed the art towards the minimalistic style as to allow the development to focus its attention on the gameplay." How does development focus its own attention? Do you mean "allow developers to focus their attention"? Then, "For the second goal, Jensen wanted the player to only need two additional controls" contains a misplaced modifier. Simple grammar stuff, it's all over the article. It needs a thorough treatment, sorry. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 00:24, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: 1a. Masem, as much as I admire your work at WP, I have to agree with Spike. And this nomination has been hanging around here for quite a while and has become rather large, suggesting it was premature. These issues in the lead indicate the likelihood that the whole text needs a big copy-edit. I think this should be withdrawn and resubmitted after collaboration with wordy editors.
  1. You couldn't write a stub to avoid the glaring red link at the top and in the infobox, could you?
  2. The infobox pic really leaves a lot to be desired. What is it? Could it possibly be tweaked and re-uploaded to bring out the structure? It's a mystery.
  3. "trial-and-death"—it's already within quotes, so are the hyphens necessary?
  4. The boy dies more than once? Unfortunate question-mark for the reader at the top.
  5. Could I put in a plea not ever to use "utilising", one of the ugliest words in English? Why not "with" (to avoid ing ing, too)?
  6. Monochromatic is black and white, isn't it? Why write both?
  7. "an eerie atmosphere similar to the horror genre"—possibly remove the last five words? I don't get the reference ... horror genre in vid games? It's clear from the next bit, anyway.
  8. Shouldn't there be a comma before "based on"?
  9. "Limbo received mixed reviews for its minimal story"—minimal story sounds boring. Do you mean "minimalist"? And perhaps if this is an admired trait, you could add a few words of context, even in the lead?
  10. "tied in"?
  11. any -> a
  12. the lack of an abrupt ending? Just add "the" to stop the ellipsis.
  13. Remove "point of". Or better, shave that whole phrase out: "Many reviewers felt the high cost .... purchasing it." ("the title" is a bit laboured.)
  14. Logic problem: "However, some reviews proposed that Limbo had an ideal length." Well ... the length might have been ideal, but that doesn't necessarily negate the cost/lenth ratio complained of in the previous sentence. Why the "however"? Recast both sentences, possibly reversing their order. Tony (talk) 14:07, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:08, 14 September 2010 [68].

Winter Olympic Games edit

Nominator(s): H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 16:06, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because in the previous FAC nomination the article received a degree of support but was not promoted due to a legitimate object for content reasons. I've addressed the content concerns raised and gave the article some time to breathe. I'd like to renominate it for FA consideration with the hope that it is worthy of the star. H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 16:06, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—no dab links, no dead external links (one actually returns a 404, but nevertheless works). Ucucha 16:24, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I see some sourcing and organizational issues: I can no longer find criticism with this article. ~~Andrew Keenan Richardson~~ 08:43, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I find this sentence a bit confusing: "The Games were held every four years from 1924 until 1940 when they were interrupted by World War II. The Winter and Summer Games resumed in 1948 and were held in the same year until 1992, when the Games were placed on separate four-year cycles."
    • The images on the page might be visually improved if they alternated sides, and if people were facing the text.
  • Fixed, I was laboring under an older rule that no images could be left aligned under third tier headings. Upon review it appears that rule has been eliminated. H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 20:34, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Is it necessary to mention every Olympic Games in the history section? It seems odd that each Games is given equal treatment, rather than focusing on important moments. For example the boycotted 1980 Games. Why does that paragraph only mention boycott "rumors", rather than the actual boycott? If the history section is going to discuss all games, would it be possible to integrate the "List of games" at the bottom into this section? I'm uncertain how this section is subdivided. I would like to see more discussion of trends during different time periods, like the number of athletes, participating countries, or number of sports.
  • There was significant debate as to whether the history section required a synopsis of each Games. See here and here for thoughts that trend towards keeping the history as is.
  • I've added info on the 1980 boycott.
  • I'm reticent to move the list up to this section. I think that would break up the prose and signficantly impact the readability of the article. I'd like to hear what others think of this idea.
  • I've sprinkled participation statistics into the history section at five different Games to show progression. More could be added if deemed necessary. H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 22:23, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree now with the way the section is organized, and you're right the table shouldn't be moved. I like the information about participation.~~Andrew Keenan Richardson~~ 09:45, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • This is unsourced: "Brundage's concerns proved prophetic. The IOC has charged more for television broadcast rights at each successive Games.", as is this: "The more television companies have paid to televise the Games, the greater their persuasive power with the IOC."
    • Why is the 1992 switch to occurring in off-years to the summer Olympics discussed under the "commercialization" section rather than the "history"? I think it should be moved, but I can see that the motivations for the switch were commercial.
  • There are two sentences in the history section about this switch. I intentionally kept the information here brief so as not to duplicate information found later. It is further discussed in the commercialization section because as you point out, many of the motives for the change were financial. H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 20:13, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • This is unsourced: "The process for awarding host city honours came under intense scrutiny after Salt Lake City had been awarded the right to host the 2002 Games. Soon after the host city had been announced it was discovered that the organisers had engaged in an elaborate bribery scheme to curry favour with IOC officials"
    • This is unsourced, and the first two sentences are out of place: "Hosting an Olympic Winter Games leaves a significant mark on the community after the Games are finished. This impact is felt for years afterwards. Until recently the cost of hosting the Games was assumed by the host nation."
  • I wasn't happy with the writing in this paragraph so I made some changes and added another source. I hope it is more cohesive and topical now. H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 21:53, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Unsourced: "The organisers claimed that the cost of extending bullet train service from Tokyo to Nagano was responsible for the huge price tag"
    • Discontinued sports and Demonstration events are both presented in list form where it would probably be better to convert them to prose. ~~Andrew Keenan Richardson~~ 19:21, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looking through the article again, I have a few more questions, which are less nitpicky this time:
    • When cities are mentioned as hosts, should the host country also be mentioned? As in "Sochi, Russia". This is inconsistent, which is not necessarily bad, but deserves attention.
  • Ok so here's what I did, I added the country name to each reference to the city in the history section. If there were duplicative references to the same city I used my discretion. I did not add any more country names to cities after the history section because the reader can refer back to the history section if s/he has a question about the city name, also several of the city references are in the format of, "the Grenoble Games", or "the Turino Games". It is cumbersome to put a country name in this context. Let me know what you think.
    • Should the commercialization section be moved inside the controversy section? It seems like it's given undue weight as its own section, but it's not necessarily a controversy either.
  • I'm not sure, I don't want to give it undo weight, I've trimmed it down but if it is still unbalancing the article I would prefer to shorten the section. It could be seen as a controversy though since much has been written both in support of and criticising the IOC's push for financial investment in the Games. I'll reread the section and see if it fits.
  • Ok, I've moved "Commercialisation" into the controversy section. I'm fine with that as it has generated quite a bit of controversy though that isn't explicitly stated in the section. I may add a sentence or two about that to help it fit within the context. Thanks for the suggestion. H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 17:21, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Should the map go beneath the list of games? The list might be more pertinent to the reader, and also it might be better visually. ~~Andrew Keenan Richardson~~ 09:28, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your review, I appreciate your efforts to critique the article. I've worked through your suggestions and would like to know your thoughts at this point. H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 22:23, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:56, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment – Good to see such a comprehesive article - detailing each games. Aaroncrick TALK 03:48, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments There are some issues in the refs. Mixture of NJ, New Jersey, UK and expansions. I think they should be expanded as it shouldn'e be assumed etc. Also in the links, there is a style of only shorthanding "Jones (2004)" etc and then plugging the page number off the end of the tag; except in some cases, the book title is listed seperately in repeats. Also there are cases where the book is linked to, but no page given, eg several of the 27s linking to "Judd 2008" don't have a page hanging off the end YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 02:18, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you, Yellowmonkey, for jumping in, I was hoping you'd return to review this article again. I'll expand the abbreviations. Regarding the books/page number issue, someone had reformatted some of the books in this way and I didn't know if this was a new requirement in formatting book refs. The contributor didn't do it for all the books so I tried to finish the job though personally I like having the page number in the ref rather than shorthanding it. I think I will convert all the book refs back to the way they were, keep it all consistent. H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 15:49, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ok, I have expanded the abbreviations and I pushed all the page numbers into the reference rather than having them hang off the in-line citation. I like that format better anyway. Please advise if it is consistent with FA criteria and works within the article. H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 17:12, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments – Reviewed through the history section last time; now to tackle what's left...

  • Controversy: "The results of the investigation were the expulsion of 10 IOC members and another 10 members were sanctioned". I think this would read better as "the expulsion of 10 IOC members and sanctioning of another 10".
  • Done
  • Sports: "Through the years, the number of sports and events conducted at the Winter Olympic Games have increased." Since "have" is referring to the number of sports, it should probably be the singular "has" instead.
  • Done
  • Replace "Whilst" with "While" here; it's a shade simpler. Plain isn't always bad.
  • Done
  • Discontinued sports and demonstration events: "by having an competition without granting medals." "an" → "a".
  • Done
  • Are there actually any discontinued sports? If not, why is the title the way it is?
  • Done
  • Done with all your suggestions, thank you for continuing your review from the last FAC. I appreciate your contributions to the articles I have nominated here. Please let me know if there is anything else I should address. H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 16:37, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*Support - Prose looks good to me. ceranthor 14:37, 9 September 2010 (UTC) Abstaining from FAC at this point. I know I'm in no place to sit here disagreeing with Tony, and I intend to come back when this article's prose is tightened. ceranthor 12:53, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose—Problems in the prose, just in the lead. The whole article needs an independent copy-edit; a careful one.

  • "The Winter Olympic Games are a winter multi-sport event held every four years, starting in 1924." Anyone else get a past/present juddering in this opening sentence ("starting")?
  • Then the dramatic statement that it consists of winter sports? Why not work this into the opening sentence; in fact, the opening needs to be rewritten.
  • I'll take a stab at the opening to address the above two bullets.
  • "Other events have been added as the Games have progressed"—the last word is vague. (Do you mean "as time went on", or something like that?)
  • I mean it mostly in the sense of evolution.
  • Rather than an apparent dictionary-term link piped to "demonstrate", why not use the real name in the link ("demonstration sports")?
  • good suggestion.
  • Just a personal thing: "Prior to" could be plainer as "Until then,". Ah, but we don't want anything at the start of that sentence—the time thing occurs a second later.
  • I'll remove "prior to" and put in the Summer Olympic years that figure skating and ice hockey were contested.
  • "Very"? They say it's usually very redundant.
  • removed
  • Links to that list of country-names: readers need to know that they aren't just the useless country links—that they actually lead to valuable, specific articles. Can you unlink and use those links, explicitly, further down? They are totally wasted in their deceptive form. Tony (talk) 15:42, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Interesting thought, I've never run across this criticism before. I could spell them out a little bit, I just felt that piping to the country name would unclutter the prose and remove some redundancy. I certainly didn't intend it to be deceptive. I'm a strong advocate of not linking to generic country names so I'll see what I can do.
  • Thank you for your comments, Tony1, I appreciate your commitment to professional use of prose and holding these articles to the highest standards of writing. I've responded to your comments above. H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 16:45, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Image issues:

  • File:1956 Winter Olympics opening ceremonies.jpg: The disputed PD-Italy is for simple photos. I do not consider this a simple photo; the photographer certainly had to decide where to position himself to capture the ceremony, effectively presenting the event in an artistic manner suitable for a newspaper or report.

These two image issues should be resolved before promotion. The other images are verifiably in the public domain or appropriately licensed. Jappalang (talk) 03:49, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 14:59, 14 September 2010 [69].

Butterfly (Mariah Carey album) edit

Nominator(s): PeterGriffin • Talk2Me 21:54, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it to fully cover the article and it's surrounding info. Thank you everyone for taking part in this nomination! Feedback is greatly appreciated. Thanks everyone! :)PeterGriffin • Talk2Me 21:54, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—There is a link to the disambiguation page David Cole in the article; no dead external links. Ucucha 22:27, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please review for WP:LQ compliance (e.g., put the commas outside the quote marks for song names). Ucucha 22:29, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hello. I fixed all of the "Butterfly," to "Butterfly", etc and all other songs. Check it out now, thanks :D.--PeterGriffin • Talk2Me 22:36, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose on prose. A host of small problems: inconsistent in capitalization of "hip-hop", bad grammar ("as well as hailing as one of the defining albums of the 1990s and Hip-Hop and R&B music", "an life-altering"), and clumsy sentences (repetition of "Carey" in "In the booklet from Carey's twelfth studio album ..., Carey stated"). Further down, there are even basic spelling errors ("how the single would fair, considering it's mix"). This suggests the article needs a thorough copyedit throughout, and is not yet ready for FAC. Ucucha 22:38, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I looked through the article and fixed allot of those related issues. Please check back when you get the chance. Thanks--PeterGriffin • Talk2Me 22:50, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The "an" problem is still there, as are the two spelling errors. You also changed "Hip-Hop" in a quotation, which generally shouldn't be done. I really think you need an independent copyeditor to look over it; I may have a try myself, but not today. Ucucha 22:55, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That would be great if possible, I appreciate the offer. I fixed those issues as well, so thank you.--PeterGriffin • Talk2Me 23:05, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, an article should go to GA and Peer Review before being nominated for FA. Baratayuda (talk) 01:43, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How did I guess you were going to be unreasonable. That's not a reason to oppose. You have to come up with specific issues with the article. Peer review and GA are not requirements, they are suggestions, so stop trying to sabotage everything I nominate.--PeterGriffin • Talk2Me 01:50, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
An article does not need to go to GA and PR before becoming an FA. In this case, however, it may have been a good idea. Ucucha 02:06, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's not a reason to oppose a nomination Ucucha, he's only doing it to disrupt the nomination, look at his edit history.--PeterGriffin • Talk2Me 03:40, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose. The writing is bad in almost every paragraph.
  • There's still punctuation inside songs, even after having this pointed out.
  • Background should have some dates so we know when all this is taking place.
  • "Butterfly was one of Carey's best-received albums, hailing as one of the most impressive releases of the year" - ungrammatical.
  • the album was set to be a hit. nonneutral
  • couple's, "irreconcilable separation." why comma.
  • successfully visited Europe and Asia. was she banned and managed to sneak in?
  • Additionally, Erlewine went on to proclaim Butterfly as one of Carey's best records and finished writing, "Carey is continuing to improve and refine her music, which makes her a rarity among her '90s peers." finished writing doesn't make sense.
  • near-perfect score of 4.5 stars. out of 5? and no need for near-perfect, evident.
  • Carey visited The Oprah Winfrey Show where she covered a highly publicized interview, regarding her split from Tommy Mottola. Bad sentence.
  • "Butterfly", which Carey reportedly wrote to Tommy Mottola, was held endeared as her "most heartfelt ballad," a song she felt transformed her career and vocal mystique. very bad sentence.
  • Butterfly's extended popularity, and it's world tour becoming an instant sell-out in Japan, paved the way for Carey's following compilation album, Number 1's, which became the best-selling album in Japan by a non-Asian artist. bad sentence (neverminding the it's).
  • While Carey denied the allegations, many found the proof to be overwhelming. the "proof"?
  • While the video's speculation grew, Carey continued to deny any intention of portraying her marriage in the video. doesn't make sense.
  • as well as The Rosie O'Donnell Show, where she visited twice.
  • Carey re-recorded a Spanish version of "My All", titled "Mi Todo", while also becoming one of her most remixed songs. ungrammatical. implies Carey became one of her most remixed songs.
  • The paragraping seems rather arbitrary. See the first two in writing and composition and the ones in Awards
  • "more mature and subtle than anything Carey had ever recorded." Sourced to [70] which doesn't have that quote. Incidentally that was the first I checked so not too confident that the others support well. Not sure also that you should be using this to summarise critical responses in general (which you later decide to attribute to that specific reviewer).
  • Additionally, Browne commended Carey's "slushy vocals,". What it actually says: "Tracks burble along, verses indistinguishable from choruses, like one big watercolor painting. Others are simply derivative: Prince's The Beautiful Ones is reduced to a slushy vocal showcase for Carey ...".
  • "as well as her restrained and mature "vocal prowess."". Vocal prowess doesn't appear in the source.
  • 13 Juzwiak, Rich. does not check out either.
  • Neither does [71] with "peaking within the top-five in most European countries." only lists a few countries
  • Perhaps tell us what the bomb means in the Review box? Actually appears lower, but not connected.
  • Lots of unsourced.

These are only a fraction of the number of errors; almost every paragraph has some issue or other. Reads like you copied the Shapiro and Nickson books without checking for tense and grammer. Also, any piece using "it's" wrong should be failed automatically. This happens a few times. Also not very unbiased; nothing but overly enthusiastic praise and positive assertions about the album. By far the worse problem however is the shoddy sourcing -- many of those I checked had problems of not quite matching the text. Suggest withdraw nomination. 86.153.124.194 (talk) 03:53, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 14:16, 11 September 2010 [72].

Harmon Killebrew edit

Nominator(s): Alex (talk) 05:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because 1) it has already attained Good Article status. 2) It went through a massive overhaul not too long ago to add information and copy edit what was already there. It has good length, images and references. 4) It is a notable person. Alex (talk) 05:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments -
  • While I appreciate the fact that sometimes you need to use web.archive.org links, they should be so marked in the references. They should not be exclusively used, if the site itself is up, because it is an additional hoop to jump through to get to the information about the reliablity/etc. of the site being used. If the site is no longer available, then it really really needs to be noted that the site link is to a web archive not to the original.
How might one go about noting the archive.org in the references? Where might one suggest putting it? Alex (talk) 16:13, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Using the Wayback Machine is a good place to start. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • That being said.... why'd his homepage go down? And why should we trust a autobiographical site (that no longer exists!) for information about the subject of the article?
I believe his site went down because he replaced it with http://www.harmonkillebrewfoundation.org. Alex (talk) 16:13, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We need to have somewhat better sourcing for this than a now-deleted autobiographical webpage. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
One of the factoids that references the defunct website now references a current website. Still working on finding links for the other three. Alex (talk) 18:34, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
All information that relied on the defunct website now has references from current and/or better sources. Alex (talk) 20:03, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Replaced it with the source whence that article originally came. Alex (talk) 18:59, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Newspaper/magazine/journal titles should be italicized. (See current ref 14, the sporting news isn't... probalby others also.)
Fixed the Sporting News one. Alex (talk) 16:13, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Baseball Cube is an established online statistical baseball resource. Alex (talk) 16:13, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We need something more than that to show it's a high quality reliable source, which is required for FAC. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Here's a search of the Google News Archive. [73] Baseball America, for one, referenced it. Alex (talk) 17:57, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Two pages, with many of them passing mentions is not exactly impressing me that it's being used often by other reliable sources. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:06, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Baseball-Reference links to it at the bottom of each player's user page. (for example: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/n/newmaal01.shtml). One could deduce that if Baseball-Reference trusts it, it is reliable. However, looking at what The Baseball Cube is used as a reference for, we could easily switch it out with Baseball-Reference with no ill effects.Alex (talk) 18:32, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I replaced The Baseball Cube links with Baseball-Reference links. Alex (talk) 19:16, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decide if you're going to italicize website names or not. You've got Baseball reference italicized but not Retrosheet, etc.
Retrosheet is not italicized because it is marked as the "publisher" of the source, while Baseball-Reference is italicized because it is marked as the larger "work" of the source (the source whence the information came). If anything, it might be wise to remove Baseball-Reference.com as the "work."Alex (talk) 19:20, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Right now it "looks" inconsistent, suggest following the second idea. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:37, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Alex (talk) 20:17, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Current ref 73 (Harmon Killebrew...) lacks a publisher
Fixed. Hopefully. Alex (talk) 16:13, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Current ref 74 (Danny Thompson ...) lacks a publisher
No publisher could be found. Alex (talk) 16:13, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hint... it's going to be the foundation that puts on the gold tournament. (grins) Ealdgyth - Talk 17:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I did find some references to a Danny Thompson Memorial Foundation, so I believe that will suffice. Alex (talk) 18:08, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • You use the Harmon Killebrew Foundation as a reference, so it shouldn't be in the external links. Likewise his stats from the Baseball reference.
Fixed. Alex (talk) 18:47, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • This looks to be a self-published work, why is it in the external links? Does it really add anything in addition to the stuff in the article? Or is it a spamish link?
It seems to provide extra biographical information about Mr. Killebrew. Alex (talk) 16:13, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but it is selfpublished and if it was that good, wouldn't you use it as a source? I'm seeing it more as a way for this person to sell copies of their book. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It could be removed, it really doesn't bother me one way or the other. Alex (talk) 18:02, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I decided to remove it. Alex (talk) 19:06, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:00, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article prior to a nomination." As such, make sure the primary contributors are notified next time. Granted, myself and Wknight are now aware of this and it was more a baseball collab effort to begin with. I'll take a look though, I think there's some things that needed fixing first. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 14:16, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: This is not a full review by any means, but three suggestions:

  • The introduction does not need all the statistics. The characterizations or summaries are sufficient if supported in the text below, as yours seem to be.
  • There are two uses of "currently" (in this article, in sentences with nearly identical content). "Future-proof" the article; it should still be accurate ten years from now even if you walk away from it tomorrow. "Currently" is a word which should not be used. If you don't want to use the "as of" formulation (which does seem strained), you can, for example, state that he moved to Scottsdale in 1990, and leave it at that.
  • He has "23 grandchildren", not "23 grand children". Kablammo (talk) 12:36, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Fixed these, plus linked some terms in the lead that weren't but shouldn't be. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 20:36, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment "In the early 1990s, he married Nita.[75] Their family consists of 9 children, 23 grandchildren and 2 great grandchildren.[78]" so in 15-20 yrs they have greatgrandkids already. The first and second wife info appear to be mixed together incorrectly YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:21, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: While the article is looking pretty good, it's not yet ready to be promoted to Featured Article. A lot of common baseball terms aren't linked, and terms/stats/jargon that can abbreviated at various points in the article aren't (AL). Most of all, some of the prose is rather confusing, either by omitting details (e.g. why Killebrew missed playing time) or by jumbling together various season summaries before going through the years individually (e.g. 1961-1963). I would aim for a more focused season summary approach like was done with Mariano Rivera and Stan Musial - in many cases, the Killebrew season summaries jump back and forth to various other years. Some of the prose just needs to be condensed and copywritten a little more thoroughly (e.g. "On that date, Twins third baseman Rich Rollins made a poor throw to Killebrew at first. In trying to save the play, Killebrew's elbow was dislocated when he and the runner collided and Killebrew was out of action until mid-September"). Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 18:28, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Another point to make is that some of the citations are curiously constructed. Many of the Baseball-Reference citations do not indicate they are from Baseball-Reference, instead only referring to the publishing company, Sports Reference LLC (this is insufficient). Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 18:31, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 13:54, 11 September 2010 [74].

Organization of the Luftwaffe (1933–1945) edit

Nominator(s):   Perseus 71 talk 02:33, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is second time I am nominating this article. The First nomination has been archived here. The nomination got archived for one reason only. There were not many extensive comments on the subject of this article. As you can see, there were no opposes. Only Comments on the Sources and image copyrights.

My rationale for nomination is same as before. This article is predominantly about the organizational structure of Luftwaffe during the period of 1933 to 1945. This was the period when an Air Force was not yet recognized as a strategic armed force. One of the lesser known facts is that Luftwaffe during this time was probably the only force to have a tank division of its own. Point is, this article goes into the distinctive organizational structure compared to other contemporary Air Forces of the time. At the same time its not going into the the history of Luftwaffe.

From assessment standpoint, this article has undergone A class review and has been assessed to meed those criteria. A Peer review was conducted and is now archived. The Article also underwent a proper CopyEd by an editor from WP:GoCE. I think that at this point its in a good enough shape that it could be reviewed to see if it can be a FA candidate. The Sources of this article were extensively validated as part of the A Class review and the first nomination.   Perseus 71 talk 02:33, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments - no dab links or dead external links. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:16, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • CommentsOppose after further consideration, based on concerns about sourcing (particularly the following inconsistencies). Nikkimaria (talk) 03:45, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I will start fixing these in next few days.  Perseus 71 talk 00:06, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please be more consistent in the way references are formatted. Consider: "United States War Deparment" vs "US War Department"; multiple-author references with second author first-name first vs last-name first; shortened citations with two authors using "and" vs "&"; etc.
  • No it's not - USWD still not consistent.
  • Is Frieser and Greenwood 1995 or 2005?
  • Its 2005. The incorrect cite is corrected.  Perseus 71 talk 01:52, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is Caldwell and Muller 2002 or 2007?
  • Does the book by Lepage have one author or two? The formatting leaves this unclear
  • Its just one author called Jean Denis G. G. Lepage.  Perseus 71 talk 01:52, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Formatting is still unclear here.
  • I have tried to change. Not sure what else I can do.  Perseus 71 talk 00:40, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is the second author of the Taylor book Percivale John or John Percivale? Again, unclear formatting (and Google search suggests neither is correct?)
  • Its the one author called Alan John Percivale Taylor. I have made corrections.   Perseus 71 talk 01:52, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is the second author of the Williamson book Andrew Stephen or Stephen Andrew?
  • Deighton appears only in References, not in Citations
  • You have two Mitcham 2007s on the Reference list, but the Citations don't consistently distinguish between the two (one says 2007-b - which one does this refer to? What about the one that says only 2007?)
  • Okay, but now you have Mitcham-a and 2007-b - use a consistent formatting
  • Weal 2001 appears only on the Reference list
  • Check publisher for Caldwell
  • The linked page gives the publisher as Greenhill Books.
  • comment - stylistic issues:
  • theres a lot of paratheneses (and in some case double parenthesis (brackets within brackets)) in use for the German words and abbreviations. Further the German word and the link to German language taking the wikilinks eg the article has " formed a Luftwaffe high Command (German: Oberkommando der Luftwaffe) for operational management" which seems to my mind clumsy compared to "formed a high Command (the Oberkommando der Luftwaffe) for operational management of the Luftwaffe" GraemeLeggett (talk) 09:25, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with you. However I have been scolded time and again for using too many German languages and making the article unreadable. So finally I have decided to follow WP guidelines to the letter with English words on first use with German words in parenthesis. At second use simply use German word in italics.  Perseus 71 talk 00:40, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead - introduces the expansion of the Luftwaffe to have its own ground troops and goes on to list some of them, but not the why of it. How about dropping the list of ground units for a sentence on the reason for these units? GraemeLeggett (talk) 09:38, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quick question is there a reason the article is not named "Organization of the Luftwaffe in the Wermacht" instead of the year period? Nergaal (talk) 18:36, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Primarily because Luftwaffe of this period is only a specific period of the history of modern Luftwaffe. Secondarily, it's just a slight emphasis on the distinction that the Luftwaffe of this period was a air force formed as a Strategic force/instrument part of of war and not part of Army or Navy. I guess we could call it Luftwaffe of the Wehrmacht. But then we will need to rename History of the Luftwaffe (1933–1945) too.   Perseus 71 talk 00:06, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Germany was prohibited from having a military air force." military is redundant. There is also a with noun verbing in the lead YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:01, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The main article is an underdeveloped stub. The information there does not have proper books cited to back the facts. This article has come from a similar stub level to FAC through rigorous reviews of GAN and ACR. I am perfectly happy to move the Main Links to See also section if that helps.  Perseus 71 talk 01:34, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have stated the facts as provided by the books cited. FallschirmPanzerkorps Hermann Göring was formed from the merger of Luftwaffe Armored Paratroop Division and Fallschirm-Panzergrenadier Division 2 Hermann Göring as cited with four different citations.  Perseus 71 talk 01:34, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This FAC article isnt sufficiently consistant with the main articles, that following the link actually brings the reader into a conflict between information, while the other articles arent up at FAC the significant points in this article should have some corellation with the information in the main articles. Gnangarra 15:49, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments Switching to Oppose
    • I feel that there are too many lists in the article, would it be possible to turn some of these lists into paragraphs?
    • In the Gruppe section, you have an uncited paragraph, this needs to be corrected.
    • In the Staffel section you have two uncited paragraphs, this needs to be corrected.
    • In the Schwarm, Rotte and Kette section you have two uncited lines that need to be cited. TomStar81 (Talk) 23:08, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Closing, no feedback from nominator since September 3rd. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:37, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 19:18, 8 September 2010 [75].

German Type UB I submarine edit

Nominator(s): White Shadows Nobody said it was easy 17:36, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because in the past few months, Myself and to a lesser extent, Ceranthor have been improving this article from the state that it was left in once User:Bellhalla left Wikipedia back in December of last year. When I found this article, no one was working on it but it remained in very good shape. I decided to further work on it by taking it through a Peer Review and promoting the remaining U-boats from this class to GA status, thus making this article the centerpiece of a Good Topic. Ceranthor may make a few passing comments and help out here and there on the FAC but he has declined my offer to have him co-nom this FAC with me. As for the article itself, the German Type UB I submarines were a series of very small U-boats that three of the four Central powers operated in the First World War. Both German, Austria-Hungary, and Bulgaria used them and it was a Type UB I submarine that became Bulgaria's first true U-boat. These small vessels patrolled the coast of Belgium, France and the Netherlands as part of the Flanders Flotilla, the Adriatic sea, The Baltic sea as part of the Baltic Flotilla, and the area around Ottoman Turkey as part of the Constantinople Flotilla. Any comments would be much appreciated. This is my first true FAC that I myself am undergoing. I was a co-nom in the FAC for the Austro-Hungarian Battleship SMS Erzherzog Franz Ferdinand yet it failed. This time around, I will be addressing most of the comments and I hope to promote this article to FA status.White Shadows Nobody said it was easy 17:36, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:46, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The clarification needed tag should be addressed. Dabomb87 (talk) 18:01, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Just to clarify, links (disambiguation and external) check out. ceranthor 19:17, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: best of luck with your first solo FAC, WS, I'll keep it watchlisted and jump in if it looks like I can help. - Dank (push to talk) 19:29, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please do. - Dank (push to talk) 22:44, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support - I feel my concerns have been adequately addressed. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:01, 18 August 2010 (UTC) Comments - a neat article, and I wish you luck in getting it to FA status. Below are some suggestions/questions for further improvement. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:33, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • The wording about displacement in the lead is unclear. Based on the infobox alone, I would assume that 127 tonnes at the surface and increases to a total of 142 tonnes when completely submerged. However, wording in the lead suggests that displacement varies due to "small size variations between boats". Which interpretation is correct? Can you change the wording/infobox to erase potential confusion?
  • Avoid linking the same term more than once, especially in close proximity
  • "The group is sometimes known as the UB-1 class after SM UB-1, the class leader. In the Austro-Hungarian Navy, it was called the U-10 class." - the group or the class leader was called the U-10? I assume the former, but in that case it would seem logical to have the term bolded. Also, in a later note you say that the Austro-Hungarian Navy called it the "U-10-class" - which is correct?
    • I'm not quite sure what you mean here....--White Shadows Nobody said it was easy 23:36, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Logically, it seems that "The group known as the UB-1 class" was known in Austria-Hungary as the "U-10 class". Grammatically, however, the sentence would indicate that "SM UB-1, the class leader" was known in Austria-Hungary as the "U-10 class". If the former is correct (as I suspect it is): since "UB-1 class" is bolded, then "U-10 class" would logically also be bolded. As for the final comment, the later note includes a hyphen not present in the phrase quoted here. Hope that clarifies my comment. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:54, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The German Imperial Navy ordered an additional pair later to replace two boats sold to Austria-Hungary, which ordered a further three in April 1915" - wording is slightly awkward. Also, do you have a date for the German additional order?
  • "The total number of UB I boats constructed was twenty" - suggest rewording as "A total of twenty UB I boats were constructed" or similar
  • "German home waters" -> "German waters" or "Germany's home waters"
  • "boats from the two manufacturers" - you have not yet mentioned two manufacturers, so this statement is somewhat confusing. The entire sentence could be reworded and potentially split into two for clarity
  • "via" is common enough in English that it need not be italicized
  • Is the design correctly called Type UB I or simply UB I? You use both in the text
  • Given the slightly different designs, some of the technical figures should vary slightly between manufacturers (you specifically mention a different displacement when submerged in article text). Which design is reflected in the infobox figures?
    • Not everything was different between the two and if you look at the infobox, you'll see that what was different is already mentioned. (U-1 to U-whatever) and then the other set of numbers for the other U-boats.--White Shadows Nobody said it was easy 23:49, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Not quite. The text says that the two "differed slightly in displacement submerged", but only one number is present in the infobox (I think it's for Germaniawerft?)
  • "Germaniawerft boats seem to have had fewer large vents" - why is this "seem to have had"? Is the design inconsistent even among boats produced by the same manufacturer?
  • German Imperial Navy or Imperial German Navy? Be consistent
  • "Germany felt treaty-bound to support the Austrians" - maybe, except Germany's ally was Austria-Hungary, not the entity now known as Austria
  • Oppose per criterion three:
    • File:SM U-10 (Austria-Hungary).jpg - Dead source. 1915 is a creation date. License depends upon date of author death. Who is the author? When did s/he die?
    • File:SM UB-2 and SM UB-16 in Flanders.jpg - Purpose as is does not appear to be a significant contribution to our understanding. However, given that the current infobox image has a unsupported license, this would be appropriate re-purposed in the dual roles (NFCC#3A) of primary visual identification and illustration of "One of the minor differences" - assuming no free version exists.
      • I'm guessing that what you were saying is that while it cannot be used under fair use in it's current state, it can as an infobox image. Right?--White Shadows Nobody said it was easy 00:12, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • It's not quite as simple as that, but I suppose that has the same end result. Because of the unsupported license on File:SM U-10 (Austria-Hungary).jpg, I'm operating under the assumption that free images are not available (and am thus treating that image as non-free). So then we have three non-free images with these purposes: 1) visual identification, 2) visualization of a manufacturing difference and 3) visualization of rail design. I don't believe that the last two pass NFCC#8. However, because visual identification passes, I'm recommending using File:SM UB-2 and SM UB-16 in Flanders.jpg as the visual identification (i.e. removing this) because it will then be fulfilling two purposes, albeit one that's not necessary. Эlcobbola talk 15:11, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • File:Sections of SM UB-13 on train.jpg - Decorative (NFCC#8). That "the boats of this class were designed to be shipped by rail in sections" is not something that requires visualization to understand. An image of sections on a rail line only serves to identify the design was successful in that regard (something a reliable source could do), not to illustrate meaningfully aspects of the actual design. Now moot, but image is not low resolution (NFCC#3B). Эlcobbola talk 20:32, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments. This seems generally OK on first pass, but I think a few things need fixing:
  • "The process of shipping the submarines by rail involved breaking the submarine down into what was essentially a knock down kit."
  • "The boats were equipped with compensating tanks designed to flood and offset the loss of the C/06 torpedo's 1,700-pound (770 kg) weight, but this did not always function properly ...".
  • Randomly butting in here - I'm 99.9% sure Malleus means your tenses don't match. "compensating tanks" is plural, "this" is singular. Same with the "submarines" vs. "the submarine" comment above. Dana boomer (talk) 02:05, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Over the Type UB Is' first year of service ...". Surely the type is singular?
  • "After Italy had entered World War I ...". Called it the First World War earlier in the article.
  • "During their trials, the Type UB Is were found to be too small and too slow, and had a reputation for being underpowered". They had a reputation for being underpowered during their trials?

Malleus Fatuorum 00:53, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support. All my issues have been addressed satisfactorily. Malleus Fatuorum 17:13, 18 August 2010 (UTC) I'm withdrawing my support, see my explanation below. Malleus Fatuorum 21:04, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. There does not appear to be any issues left.--Twilight Helryx 21:03, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please resolve the questions about reliable sources raised by Ealdgyth, or ask supporters to explain why they think these sources are reliable. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:19, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll try to get to them as soon as I can. I'll also be looking for replacement sources to them.--White Shadows Nobody said it was easy 15:37, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can't find anything at http://uboat.net/about/crew.htm that speaks to reliability, editorial oversight, and factchecking-- it looks like a home-spun site, but is frequently cited here. Perhaps Ealdgyth has something about this site in her notes? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:24, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with White Shadows over the reliability of Uboat.net as a source. As Bellhalla has shown, that website is used as a reference by the authors of several printed books. I see no good reason why that source cannot be used in this or any other relevant article. Mjroots (talk) 19:57, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am not seeing that uboat.net complies with WP:SPS (it has not been established that the author is an established expert on the topic); I suggest someone raise this at WP:RSN to get a definitive reading, since the fact that it got by previous FACs is WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, and I'm concerned that standards on Ship articles not slide. We haven't yet gotten an answer on why the published books weren't consulted instead. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:01, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is a mountain of evidence against you Sandy, Bellhalla's page, the ACR, the FAC. In fact, the ed17 was the one who told me about the site in the first place and told me that it was trustworthy. Several dedicated editors of this topic have told you and provided evidence on this site's reliability and yet you continue to shove OTHERSTUFF down their (and my) throats while claiming that "It is not at all clear to me that this site [Uboat.net] meets the requirements of WP:SPS". I'm getting rather tired of you trying to throw this FAC off track with your position of power in this process and I'm beginning to think about requesting input from the other delegate or the FA director. All of us cannot be dead wrong on this issue and comments like "I'm concerned that standards on Ship articles not slide" really are like spitting in the face of the members of WP:SHIPS and WP:MIL who edit these articles. There is enough sources in Wikipedia alone, much less the books that have cited the website to show that this site does indeed meet WP:RS.--White Shadows Your guess is as good as mine 21:47, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Re which sources are used, the fact that a published book exists is not the same as having that book to hand to check the info -i.e. if you haven't got the book, then you can't use it as a source, whereas the website is accessible online by all. Suppose a book is used as a source, and you don't have that book, then how can you tell if it has been used accurately or not? You can't, can you, but you can easily check the website if it is used. Mjroots (talk) 05:17, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Highest quality sources are required for Featured articles, and editors here have yet to establish that the authors of this website are published experts in the field, per WP:SPS-- there seems to be some misunderstanding here of the requirements for high quality sourcing in Featured articles, OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, WP:SPS, and the accessibility of a source (online vs. book) is most certainly not how we judge our best sourcing. I've entered an inquiry at WP:RSN, as editors have delayed here for several weeks on doing that. We need independent review of ship articles, but we get ship editors consistently supporting ship articles, with little independent review-- sourcing still needs to be resolved. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:38, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The reason that Ships editors generally support ship articles is because most of the major issues from our perspective have been dealt with at our ACR. I agree that fresh eyes are needed for outside perspectives, but I think that your own perspective may be distorted by the fact we may not comment at length in comparison to outside reviewers. I know that I've certainly delivered some drive-by supports for ship articles, but I reviewed them at our ACR. I reject any imputation that Ships editors automatically support ship articles; if it were otherwise then this discussion would not have begun as it would gotten the requisite number supports from project members. That it hasn't speaks volumes from my POV; you may disagree. I'm not so foolish to claim that our ACR is flawless as the quality of each review depends on the reviewers, but it certainly does eliminate many issues that may commonly arise with articles from projects that don't have an ACR process.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:46, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is not at all clear to me that this site meets the requirements of WP:SPS, and the fact that it cleared previous FACs is neither here nor there (WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS). Could we please get some independent views on how this site meets WP:SPS, particularly because so much of the article depends upon it. As SPS says, if the information were reliable, surely better sources would have picked it up; if the author is indeed an "expert" (that hasn't been established), and if his info is reprinted in other books, why aren't those books cited, rather than a dubious website? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:50, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm sorry but I'm going to have to put my foot down on this one. I see no reason to remove Uboat.net as a source to this article and quite frankly, I refuse to do so. If this source leads to the downfall of this FAC, then so be it. The fact that the site is used extensively (while technically falling under OTHERSTUFF) in another FA, SM U-66 is enough proof IMHO that the site has and continues to meet WP:RS.--White Shadows Nobody said it was easy 20:35, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • One, standards for sourcing for FAs have risen in the last few years. Two, I suggest that "putting your foot down" isn't the best method of persuading others to see your side of things. There's a perfectly sensible solution, go look up the books that uboat.net uses and use them. I'm not minded to oppose over the sourcing just yet, but a cooperative attitude is definitely helpful in keeping folks from opposing. The fact is that it is a SPS and nothing I'm seeing shows that it's by an expert. I'm glad to be shown wrong on that, but the page Sandy linked to doesn't inspire confidence that the people putting out the site are experts. All over Wiki, standards of sourcing are rising, and while it may mean more work for writers, it's an important and useful thing for the reputation of the encyclopedia as a whole. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:45, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's unclear to me why "German" is in the article name; isn't that redundant (as shown by the first line of the article, which doesn't have that name bolded? See WP:LEAD). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:21, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is "Type UB I" not hyphenated, but every other use of UB-number of boat is? Also, please review WP:NBSP. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:26, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Now you've puzzled me as well; I thought SandyG was asking why isn't it "Type UB-1"? I notice as well that at least two of your sources[77][78] don't hyphenate either the type name or the boat names. Malleus Fatuorum 16:46, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think all you're expected to do is to answer SandyG's question. The reason that the type name (Type UB 1) isn't hyphenated is that it might cause confusion with the submarine UB-1, or some such. Malleus Fatuorum 23:46, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I don't think listing each name in the last section, then having a table with all of them is the best possibility. First it is redundant, and a bit not very esthetically pleasing. How about just having a table with colored lines for non-German ones. Nergaal (talk) 18:41, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Can you elaborate a bit further on that? Thanks.--White Shadows Your guess is as good as mine 00:14, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support But there are a few things in the article that could be worked on, a copyedit for comma use being one and the table issue noted above another. TomStar81 (Talk) 23:23, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the support and the comment. I'll send in a request for copy-editing in terms of comma usage :)--White Shadows Your guess is as good as mine 00:14, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Disappointed Support. Sourcing at issue.

Updated comments:

  • My support was indeed on the basis of Criterion 1a alone, and I should have made this clear.
  • It is fine for members of a related WikiProject to visit and support an article, but all eyes are on the scope with which they delineate their support, and the depth of their comments. We would be delighted if such members stayed around to review chosen aspects of a few articles outside their area; that way, everyone benefits and we can gain familiarity with their analytical and critical approaches.
  • White Shadows says: "I linked Uboat.net to every submarine merely for the convenience of readers since many of them may not have Sokol or Gardiner or any of the other books mentioned in the article. While I linked every U-boat in that table to Uboat.net, I did not mean to do so as a source more than a way for readers to see info on this subject without going to the library or spending 70$ on books of this subject." But this is not the point. WP damages its reputation significantly if we get it wrong, and that is so easy to do, especially in MilHist. The cost of books is irrelevant; they are available at public libraries, and even through GoogleBooks and Amazon, where you and/or readers can in some cases gain access to excerpts that contain key search words. Where there is a more reliable hard-copy source, it should be referenced as well as a URL: the best of both worlds. I suggest this FA be withdrawn and a thorough audit conducted on the sources. In other respects, it is very close to being among our best work. Let's ensure that we can be proud of this article in terms of its verifiability, too. Please, it's worth the extra trouble. Tony (talk) 13:33, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is savable, but needs work. Here are examples from the top.

  • "Boats of the design were also operated by"—bit odd. At least "of this".
  • Do we need the German clutter at the opening? One is in italics, the other in roman: why? But I expect to see these German terms later if we are bothered with them right at the top. Otherwise a footnote, preferably tagged in the main text.
  • I wouldn't link "submarine" as well as "U-boat", bunched. Every kid knows what a submarine is. U-boat is a more specific article that links to submarine prominently.
  • The other class names are italicised. Why is the opening "UB I" in roman?
  • Second para: two parallel rhythms: "small, maneuverable submarines able to operate in the narrow, shallow seas". They jangle a bit. Remove the comma after "small"?
  • Is Austria-Hungary a person? "who"?
  • "Several of the first boats underwent trials in German home waters, but the rest were"—why "but"? Are you contradicting the notion that only several of them were trialled in German waters? No: this is perfectly well expected by the reader. And, or a semicolon.
I know it was an empire; "who" is used for people. "The German Imperial Navy subsequently ordered an additional pair of boats to replace two sold to Austria-Hungary, who ordered a further three boats in April 1915." Isn't it "which"? Tony (talk) 10:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nice. I probably shouldn't have bothered you with this. Tony (talk) 10:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I guess many readers won't have a clue how to visualise what happened. A map of northeastern Europe at the time, with arrows, etc? But this is beyong the call of duty; just a thought for the future. Tony (talk) 10:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually there are two OTHER outstanding source queries up above besides uboat.net. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:22, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your responses. Tony (talk) 10:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Should probably support this, even though I helped with it. My work was minimal, and so I feel comfortable supporting this wonderful article. ceranthor 00:03, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note on sourcing, will editors supporting this article please speak to the outstanding concerns about reliable sources? Specifically, "it is a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature. Claims are verifiable against high-quality reliable sources ..." Are high-quality reliable sources consulted? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:18, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've become accustomed to seeing the uboat.net web site used as a reference in these submarine articles and I believed that it had been accepted as a reliable source. That the editor-in-chief, Guðmundur Helgason, is not a professional naval historian is not a matter of concern to me; he is in fact described as a naval historian in at least one article published in the Journal of Military History. What does concern me is that there's no indication as to where the information on the uboat.net web comes from. In this particular article I'm also concerned that it over-relies on uboat.net even where there are equivalent sources published by university presses, such as Fontenoy's Submarines: an illustrated history of their impact published by the University of Hawaii Press and available on Google books. On the other hand, I think it's quite likely that the information on uboat.net is accurate, so I'm not prepared to oppose because of sourcing. Malleus Fatuorum 21:04, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the main thing to remember here is that about a year ago, sourcing requirements for FAs went from "reliable" to "high quality reliable". So while uboat.net probably meets RS, it may not meet the high quality side. Note that I generally don't get that involved in the "high quality" evaluation, because that varies according to the subject of the article. What's "high quality" for a medieval bishop (peer reviewed journal articles, books by university presses) isn't possible in say horse biographies (the next peer reviewed horse biography article I find will be the first). Every reviewer needs to evaluate the sources in a particular article against the "high quality" criteria themselves ... Ealdgyth - Talk 21:09, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • See this reply by Slp1 (not saying it alleviates the concerns, just a heads-up). Dabomb87 (talk) 21:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply to Ealdgyth: And that's exactly why I'm not prepared to oppose this article's promotion, as I'm not in a position to judge whether uboat.net is generally considered to be a "high quality reliable source" in this field. I could be persuaded that it is, but the nominator needs to present the argument. Malleus Fatuorum 21:16, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Query Nice work, I've made a small tweak, hope you like it if not its a wiki. But:
"In addition, five of the German Type UB Is assigned to the Pola Flotilla" is followed by a list of just four subs.
There were only 4 U-boats in Pola (as stated earlier in the article) not five. I've fixed that.--White Shadows Your guess is as good as mine 19:56, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It mentions that one sub was interned by the Dutch, can you check for more info on that incident? I would have thought that such a breach of Dutch neutrality would have been covered.
    • There was no breach of neutrality. The Dutch simply had the sub interned there.--White Shadows Your guess is as good as mine 18:29, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • "UB-6 ran aground in Dutch waters" If I was Dutch and in WWI I would have regarded a German submarine straying into my waters as a breach of neutrality. Hence I suspect the internment. ϢereSpielChequers 19:29, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Interment is when a ship or other military personnel/equipment makes it's way into a neutral nation and rather than face the enemy across the border, they "intern" themselves in the neutral nation. It was not a breech of neutrality at all. They "surrendered" themselves to a neutral nation :)--White Shadows Your guess is as good as mine 19:41, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • The relevant law is enshrined in the Hague Convention; as White Shadows says, there was no breach of neutrality. Malleus Fatuorum 19:44, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • Thanks for the explanations. But I read being caught running aground where a sub shouldn't be and deliberately sailing into Dutch waters and surrendering to a neutral as somewhat different. Do you have sources that say which of those scenarios applies? Or were German submarines free to pass through Dutch waters as long as they held fire and didn't run aground? ϢereSpielChequers 19:55, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
            • On 10 March, UB-6 left Zeebrugge to patrol off the Mass lightship. Two days later, UB-6 entered Dutch territorial waters after their captain, Steckelberg made a navigational error, and ran aground at the mouth of the Maas River. Because the Netherlands was neutral during the war, and UB-6 did not leave Dutch territorial waters within 24 hours as required by international law, the submarine and her crew were interned by the Dutch. The Germans protested, but because UB-6's grounding was merely the result of an error and not because of distress, the Dutch could not release the submarine. Does this explain the situation? I'd rather not add it into the article as that would be going into a bit too much detail.--White Shadows Your guess is as good as mine 20:00, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
              • Thanks for looking that up, I'd suggest that the gist of that either belongs in an article on UB-6 or a footnote here. "UB-6 entered Dutch territorial waters due to a navigational error, and ran aground. Because the Netherlands was neutral during the war, and UB-6 did not leave Dutch territorial waters within 24 hours as required by international law, the submarine and her crew were interned by the Dutch. Germany protested, but because UB-6's grounding was the result of an error and not because of distress, the Dutch could not release the submarine." IMHO would not be overdetailed for a footnote IMHO. ϢereSpielChequers 10:29, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is quite a bit of repetition for example "becoming Podvodnik No. 18" in slightly different wordings is in three consecutive sections.
Too small and too slow. In what way were they too small? Also some info on typical speeds of target ships would be helpful context.
Ships sunk, damaged, or taken as a prize. Any chance of an expansion on this such as which theatres, any tonnages and whether these were military or civilian targets. Also with only a deck machinegun I'd be very impressed if they'd taken anything as prizes.
Crew of 14 - any info as to how that breaks down?
I'm afraid not. There was a captain but other than that, I'm not sure about any other crew positions/rankings within the submarines. I can take a crack at trying to find out if you want me to but don't be surprised if nothing turns up.--White Shadows Your guess is as good as mine 03:48, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for checking - FA only requires us to go as far as the sources go. ϢereSpielChequers 10:29, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What does the 33 second dive time relate to? I'm assuming it isn't the one hour that the sub could travel submerged. Also do you know how long they could stay submerged for before running out of air? ϢereSpielChequers 21:18, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The 33 second dive time refers to how long it took for the sub to reach the regular test depth of 50 metres. Would you like a mention of this or do you think this is too obvious to include and goes against the "don't go into unnecessary detail rule"?--White Shadows Your guess is as good as mine 03:48, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd suggest either a link to an explanation of that test or a footnote. ϢereSpielChequers 10:29, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I've added in colors to the table. Feel free to comment as to whether or not this is a good idea so I know whether to leave it or remove it.--White Shadows Your guess is as good as mine 20:22, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I like the use of colour, but it made me think why the table looks wrong, I think the name of the sub should be the first column. Also if you are going to use colours for ownership then ideally the ones that changed ownership should be in both colours either with stripes or diagonally split boxes. ϢereSpielChequers 20:56, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Delegate note: I've made a request here for more eyes on the sourcing issue as I am conflicted on how consensus is leaning in terms of WP:WIAFA. Karanacs (talk) 17:49, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I have mixed opinions about sourcing from uboat.net. Generally, I am comfortable sourcing to an amateur historian who has developed a good reputation and is widely cited in published sources. The problem is that I can't tell from looking at pages on uboat.net, where that information is sourced from. I would be more comfortable if uboat.net and other such sources used on Wikipedia had more meticulous references for where it gets info, and that you could follow the sources. I would feel the same way about a published book that lacks meticulous sourcing, unless perhaps the author has stellar, beyond-a-doubt expertise, and don't care that in this case, it's published online. For example, here, where did he get that information? Can you find another more official or reputable source to back up this information? I think this article over-relies on uboat.net as a source. Used more sparingly, perhaps I would support this as a featured article. Right now, I can't support but not going to oppose, either. --Aude (talk) 18:07, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I've seen more and more of these submarines go through GAN, and I'll admit, the reliance on u-boat.net has made me stop and shake my head once or twice. Might be why I've never chosen to review any of them; I know I'd get into an argument on the site's reliability. Their sources page, [79] lists a good number of sources, but one sentence that concerns me, "We also have a number of things here that are not available anywhere in print." So where are they getting their information from? Who is fact-checking everything? Are they conducting original research? Here they are soliciting writers. What kind of credential verification are they doing for those writers to keep an enthusiast who has never seen the inside of a university library from doing their writing? This honestly doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in the head's credentials. Then I see pages like this one on UB-9. What did she do for four years? Was she only operational for a week, as that's how long she's listed as having a CO? The page seems quite incomplete. I won't oppose over it, but it does seem like there are better sources available, though one may have to read German to understand them. Courcelles 19:16, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment about uboat.net - I understand we are asked to accept uboat.net as a WP:RS based on the following:

Nevertheless, per WP:V:

Articles should be based on reliable, third-party (independent), published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy; [...] In general, the best sources have a professional structure in place for checking or analyzing facts, legal issues, evidence, and arguments; as a rule of thumb, the greater the degree of scrutiny given to these issues, the more reliable the source.

Although I can see why the site's mention in published works lends it an air of respectability, I'm currently unable to see that WP:V recognizes that as a principle determining reliability of a source for a Wikipedia article. PL290 (talk) 19:29, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: It seems to me that a "representative survey of the relevant literature" on this topic (a military vessel designed, constructed and operated by German-speakers) would include reasonable consultation of German sources. The only German source appears to be this online excerpt (a violation of WP:LINKVIO?) Was the book itself surveyed, or just that site? Whatever the status of uBoat.net, the apparent neglect of the substantial German publications seems problematic. For example:
    • Bendert, Harald (2000). Die UB-Boote der Kaiserlichen Marine 1914-1918 Mittler & Sohn Verlag, ISBN 3813207137
    • Rössler, Eberhard (1997). Die Unterseeboote der Kaiserlichen Marine. Bernhard & Graefe, ISBN 3763759638
    • Rössler, Eberhard (1996). Geschichte des deutschen U-Bootbaus. Band 1. Bernhard & Graefe, ISBN 3860471538
    • Sieche, Erwin (1998). Unterseeboote der K.u.K-Marine Podzun-Pallas, ISBN 3790906506
    • Botting, Douglas (2001). Die deutschen Unterseeboote im 1. und 2. Weltkrieg Gondolino, ISBN 3811218530
    • Basch-Ritter, Renate (1991). Österreich auf allen Meeren. Geschichte der k.( u.)k. Kriegsmarine von 1382 bis 1918. Styria im Styria Pichler, ISBN 3222117969
    • Gruber, Karl (2005). Seemacht unter rot-weiß-roter Flagge. K.u.K. Kriegsmarine. Milizverlag Salzburg, ISBN 3901185259
Were any of these surveyed? Эlcobbola talk 20:06, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would try to incorporate these sources into the text...if I spoke German or had access to them. I'm in no position to get them and what 1-2 books on that list I can read on Google books, is in German.--White Shadows Your guess is as good as mine 20:48, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reluctantly agree with comments above; particularly Courcelles and Elcobbola. Haven't the time for a full search, but it seems that a book such as the following should have been consulted:
    • R.H. Gibson, Maurice Prendergast. "The German Submarine War 1914-1918". Periscope Publishing Ltd., 2002. 9781904381082
  • Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:18, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Truthkeeper, that book was consulted! It is used several times throughout the article and I've just added more citations from it :)--White Shadows Your guess is as good as mine 21:33, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Sorry, about that - I keep crashing! Had actually tried to delete above, but it seems have posted anyway. Anyway, glad you added more from Gibson and Prendergast. Generally I think it's best to use the highest quality sources available. (Hope this posts ... ) Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:48, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • I know what it's like. Anyway, I understand and agree but I do consider Uboat.net a high quality source. I have tried to use other sources to get a mixture of online and offline sources in the text and will continue with this but I can only do so much with books. Not much exists on the subject if you know what I mean.--White Shadows Your guess is as good as mine 21:59, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Reading through the comments above, I can sense the reluctance of editors tackling the question of uboat.net's status. On the one hand, Gudmundur is clearly a devoted student of the boats and appears to have taken considerable care in his work. Ditto White Shadows. Further, that website has been relied upon for various articles at GA (I understand) and no-one wants to see the quality status of a series of articles potentially unravel over a discussion only now taking place. I can also hear myself thinking "how will we ever consistently get English-language FAs on non-English subjects if we insist on consultation of non-English language books?" (I hoped to one day get Art of Iceland up to this standard, and own almost all the English-language books on the subject, but can see that ambition fading...)
So. There seem to be two issues mixed together here: whether the website is a "high quality reliable source"; and whether a comprehensive survey of the lit. has taken place in the absence of reference to major German-language books on the subject. I am not commenting on the latter question. On the former:
  • None of the editors / contributors appears to have relevant qualifications. Like Malleus, I agree that this in itself may not be necessary to establishing reliability, but it may influence judgement about "high quality" reliability.
  • The fact that there is a general list of sources, but no sourcing on the individual pages, I think counts against the site's quality.
  • Is it just me, or is there another factor here, in that we are relying consierably on what is in fact a tertiary, not a secondary, source? What Gudmundur has created is essentially the U-Boat Encyclopedia. Note WP:RS includes: "Wikipedia articles should be based mainly on reliable secondary sources." (emphasis in original) Yet Gudmundur has used the secondary sources (acording to his sources page) to create what is now a tertiary source.
  • The strongest argument in favour of uboat.net's favour is its reputation amongst other writers. Slp1's list at the discussion here is germinal in this regard. However, the list isn't as impressive as it first appears. The first link: it certainly receives high praise from writer Gordon Williamson, though as Malleus has noted, that is in the context of online resources. Second link: didn't work for me - no relevant content. Third link: not sure that any claim to reliability can be made in the context of this particular book (on a very tangentially-related subject). Fourth link: Intute, an online resource for which I could find no evidence of its own reliability. Fifth link: a list of links appended to a commercial TV documentary webpage. Sixth link: a book about using online sources to teach critical thinking skills. I don't think the authors are frankly qualified to comment on whether the site is good or not (not that it stops them from doing so). Seventh link: A university website listing links to WWII resources: but it explicitly puts quote marks around the assessment of the site, indicating it is not the site's author's own assessment. Eighth link: Listed in a book called "The history highway 3.0: a guide to internet resources". Describes the site as "A comprehensive study of the German u-boat", which is simply inaccurate, calling the source into question. Ninth link: The Naval Museum of Manitoba's list of links that describes uboat.net as "very accurate and complete".
  • My feeling about the endorsements / praise for the site from most other sources is that they have done less fact-checking than anyone here, with the possible exception of Gordon Williamson. His alone is the only endorsement out of all the above that I feel can be trusted as coming from someone competent to reach a view. The rest are too tangential or themselves unreliable for us to use them as an assessment of whether the webpage in question is a "high quality reliable source".
  • Having said all of that, I would also comment that the dominant use of the website is for some fairly bare facts - launch dates, commissioning dates, and ultimate fate. Not sure whether this should be a factor in our deliberations about the extent of reliance on the site.

Dont know if that is any help. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:25, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Conway's All the world's fighting ships, 1906-1921 By Robert Gardiner, Randal Gray, Przemysław Budzbon is a reliable source already used to a significant degree in the article. It appears to contain information that can be used to replace stuff coming from uboat.net in some instances. I note the WP article cites uboat.net in support of the first line in the uboat table. That line includes in the "fate" section: "Handed over to Italy as a war reparation and scrapped at Pola by 1920." Yet Gardiner p. 180 has this: "wrecked 4.6.15 and [broken up] 1918" as well as the subsequent handing over and scrapping in 1920 (p.343). Firstly, we should use Gardiner in preference to uboat.net; secondly, the wrecking is omitted from uboat.net's page. It looks to me as though a bit more can be drawn from Gardiner. This will also minimise the losses from the article that would occur if we avoided uboat.net as a source altogether. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:48, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think most of us (considering this FAC has about 10 supporters and currently no opposition) can agree that it is OK to use Uboat.net as a source as long is other secondary and offline sources are consulted as well. Uboat.net is great for those who do not have any offline sources available and can be regarded as a great online source but I understand that books always trump websites. I linked Uboat.net to every submarine merely for the convenience of readers since many of them may not have Sokol or Gardiner or any of the other books mentioned in the article. While I linked every U-boat in that table to Uboat.net, I did not mean to do so as a source more than a way for readers to see info on this subject without going to the library or spending 70$ on books of this subject. Every single book on German U-boats coast at least 50$ such as Sokol's and as a result, the use of Uboat.net is sometimes needed to complete the article. It may appear that the article overly relies on Uboat.net but there are only a few instances where something is cited by Uboat.net and not another offline source. I did use it as a tertiary source for the most part but still fail to believe that the site is not of high enough quality to remove or degrade or a "filler" source. If need be, I can add in yet more pages from Conway's into the table but I honestly think that such a course of action is not needed. I will continue to use this site on any future works on U-boats that I undertake as I have yet to see someone who actually works on the subject questions the site's reliability.--White Shadows Your guess is as good as mine 10:53, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • (considering this FAC has about 10 supporters and currently no opposition). I'm not seeing ten supporters (pls clarify), and there is plenty of concern raised by editors who aren't willing to oppose, but aren't convinced. Some of the supports are from WikiProject members who routinely support all ship articles, and Tony1 supports only on prose (I wish he'd consider all issues raised before supporting, but know from history to consider his supports only on 1a, and a 1a support from him is valuable, but limited). I'm also aware of other cases where high quality sources end up contradicting non-peer-reviewed online sources, so it is always a problem to rely on marginal online sources. These issues should be addressed; would it be possible to review the uboat.net sources and try to diminish the reliance on that source or replace them with higher quality sources? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:51, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sandy, "delimited" would have been a more diplomatic term, particularly since I am distraught that you should seek to undermine my work elsewhere, and since I informed you that I would ignore you henceforth. Tony (talk) 13:33, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, "delimited" would have been a better term; thanks! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:46, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. I really appreciate the restraint shown by Malleus, Aude, Courcelles, Elcobbola and hamiltonstone in not opposing, and all the work they've put in to helping us decide the question. Taken together, their arguments are persuasive. uboat.net has been relied on too much for this article, and as currently sourced, it seems to me the article falls apart if you remove uboat.net. I'm not opposed to this article ever becoming an FA, but it's going to take more than a day or two to fix the sourcing problem. Btw, what's notable about this FAC isn't that SHIPS people are piling in to support, what's notable is that they aren't. TomStar gave a weak support, and his reviewing work is incredibly valuable, he always has perceptive things to say, but like Tony1, he's not expecting everyone to take his support as a clue that they don't have to do their own work, he works as part of a team. Everyone else who normally reviews and supports SHIPS articles at A-class and at FAC is notably absent. I've never heard a credible argument that SHIPS reviewers can't be trusted, and in my 6-month history at SHIPS, I haven't seen any articles pass FAC or A-class that shouldn't have. - Dank (push to talk) 14:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

For my part, I don’t consider it so much restraint as an attempt to avoid being unfair, as I’m uncertain of the extent to which the relatively new "representative survey of the relevant literature" verbiage requires consultation of foreign sources (although my personal view is that it certainly ought to; especially in cases such as this: non-English topic where a questionable source is being heavily replied upon). As a fundamental property of Wikiepdia is the ability to collaborate with geographically and culturally dispersed editors, however, I don't accept as valid issues of inability to read a given language and inability to access “foreign” works, whether cheaply or otherwise. Have any Germans (e.g. via Babel categories or Wikiproject Germany) even been asked to assist? KuK, for example, appears highly involved in Marine articles at de.wiki and has an English Babel level 3 (advanced). Has s/he been asked whether s/he has sources or could go to a library and get them? How much effort has really been put forth here? Эlcobbola talk 17:19, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 17:51, 7 September 2010 [80].

Dhaka Residential Model College edit

Nominator(s): Tanweertalk 10:13, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have been working for this article from early 2009. From then the article has received two peer reviews and also been copy-edited. It was listed as a GA in early 2010. I've relentlessly contributed to this article with a view to making it a FA. It's now a comprehensive article about Dhaka Residential Model College, a high school in Dhaka which is celebrating its 50th anniversary this year. I would love if I'm showed the problems that may be act like impediments in this way. I am confident that it meets all the FA criteria and I hope you agree. Thanks for your understandings. -- Tanweertalk 10:13, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: 2 dabs (President's Award and Viva voce; no deadlinks. PL290 (talk) 10:27, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Issues concerning dabs have been solved. Please let me know where in the article http://www.drmc-edu.org has been used. -- Tanweertalk 16:37, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The last line of the infobox. Ucucha 18:35, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) It's given as the link to the college website (last entry in the infobox). The link checker currently reports no deadlinks for me, though I notice it says this link has a "Connection issue", evidently something to watch out for with this tool in future as I cannot in fact connect to the site from the infobox link. PL290 (talk) 18:38, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Such things can evidently depend on who is trying to get to a link. The drmc-edu.org link still doesn't work for me. Ucucha 12:01, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources issues

  • There are numerous citations to "Srijon" and "Shandipan". What are these - books, journals?
  • Format consistency is necessary, e.g. in ref 39 you have "Srijon (2002), p. 40" while 62 reads Hossain, M (2002). "DRMC wins BTV quiz contest". Srijon: 35,36.
  • What makes http://www.storyofpakistan.com/person.asp?perid=P017 reliable? This biography of Ayub Khan is far from scholarly.
  • Why is Banglapedia a reliable source?
  • What makes http://www.tariquerahman.net/index.php/profile reliable, and why is the spelling in the reflist different from tht on the site itself?
  • The Parjatan Bichitra, if it is a newspaper or journal, needs to be italicised.
  • The college's website is used as a sources, and should not therefore appear under External links.

Brianboulton (talk) 15:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment:

  • Srijon and Shandipan are both annual magazine of the college. The name Srijon was used until 2002, since 2003 the name is Shandipan.
  • I take your concern for StoryOfPakistan seriously. So this ref has been canceled and I've used http://pakistanherald.com/Profile/Muhammad-Ayub-Khan-1180 instead as this is the official website of Pakistan Herald, one of the newspapers of Pakistan.
  • Banglapedia, written and edited by experts in concerned arenas, is the national encyclopedia of Bangladesh. Please read the article Banglapedia to know more. So there is no doubt about the accuracy and reliability of the encyclopedia.
  • http://tariquerahman,com is the personal website of Tarique Rahman. Spelling issue has been solved.
  • I would like to know about this matter in details. The college's website has been used as source. But why it shouldn't appear under External Links. Please let me instead, know what should appear?
    "External links" should provide links to associated websites other than those used as sources for the article if you think they may be of some general interest to readers of the article. It's a bit like "Further reading", but it relates to online material. Brianboulton (talk) 18:11, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I think we generally make an exception for links to a topic's official site, though. Ucucha 18:39, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

With regards. -- Tanweertalk 16:33, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment:

  • Parenthetical information seems like poor style for the introduction, particularly: "when Bangladesh was still a part of Pakistan (Bangladesh gained independence in 1971)" seems like unnecessary information for the lead.
  • "The school was the only one in Bangladesh under the direct control of the Ministry of Education, and it continues to enjoy this special status as of 2010" - could this be reworded to: "Since it's creation, the school has been the only one in Bangladesh under the direct control of the Ministry of Education"?
  • "DRMC is one of the most competitive schools in the country" - the source for this does not actually comment on DRMC's competitiveness.
  • "The Government of Bangladesh recognized the school for its strong performance in the Higher Secondary Certificate examination in 2008" - The source seems to indicate that it is specifically the Dhaka Education Board awarding this; if that's correct the sentence should be changed.
  • "Dhaka was the capital and the largest city of East Pakistan" - is this necessary background information?
  • The information on the number of current students is imprecise. Can you find a source that doesn't round to the nearest thousand?
  • "a four-storied house named Dr. Muhammad Shahidullah" - is that the dorm's name, or is it named after him?
  • "emphasizes student discipline in all of their activities" - what does this mean and why is there no source for it?
  • "In addition to a terminal exam, two class tests are held each ....... scholarship examination." - this is unsourced, as is the following paragraph.
  • Much of the admission section is unsourced
  • Why are extracurricular activities like quizbowl given so much coverage? Are they really that important? Similar concerns about the alumni association.
  • If alumni are notable, they should be linked to their own articles, even if they are red links. I think.
  • "Many senior government officials and public representative of Bangladesh are Remians" - unsourced

~~Andrew Keenan Richardson~~ 02:59, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Strong oppose - POV and sourcing
    • Although the article seems to be mostly sourced, many of the sources don't check out
      • Campus section: ref4 is to Ayub Khan and doesn't fit any of the two lines before it. 37 only covers the infirmary and not the other claims about the football field etc. "The school has its own water-pump for the water supply of the college.[37" ref is actually about the hospital. So the first half of the para only has one sentence actually reffed, the others have window-dressing refs that don't work. SEcond half is Bengali, so I can't check it
      • "Houses" The second half of the first para and the whole second para, is not at all in the ref attached. 75% of the section is attached to bogus sources
      • Exam stats table. None of the sources give teh % pass rate of 99%+. Only the number of GPA-5s are given. What is the source for the claim of near perfect success???
      • Sports section ref does not give the result of the football match
      • Admission: The sources only say that there is an exam and that supply < demand, not all the rest as well
      • Start of academics. POV claim about great discipline and large library not in ref. r16 only covers the last sentence not the other stats before it
      • History. "DRMC was originally established by the Ayub Khan, the first military leader of Pakistan,[4] to provide education for army officers in East Pakistan. The school, and later the college, were modeled after public schools in the United Kingdom (according to the British Public Schools Act 1868), particularly Eton College. The house system was designed to resemble Eton's. After the independence of Bangladesh, a board of governors was appointed with the Education Secretary as its Chairman. " not in the source "DRMC was established as a fully residential educational institution with five dormitories, but because of a significant increase in the number of students over the last two decades, the school also offers a non-resident option for students. Built in 1960, Qudrat-i-Khuda House was the first dormitory for students in grades 3–7. Another dormitory named Ayub House was built in 1961, capable of accommodating around 200 students of the same grades" not in the ref afterwards
  • Is the DRMC Preospectus [12] actually in English or Bengali. I opened it but it shows stuff in the English alphabet but meaninglessly. It is not tagged bn atm YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:13, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • POV
      • "Dhaka Residential Model College's results from 2005 to 2009 for the Secondary School Certificate level examinations are as follows:" misleading. Those are its ranking in Dhaka, not all of Bangladesh as implied by no conditions being attached
      • "DRMC publishes a magazine annually, Shandipan, containing school related news, poems, articles, stories, science fiction, jokes and other items of imterest, written by the students, teachers and staff. The magazine reflects the creativity of the college, and provides an opportunity for students to express their thoughts. " Are they allowed to criticise the school then?? If so, the school saying the students are free is not indept
      • " won championships in 4th International World Youth Mathematics Intercity competition,[66] National Math Olympiad 2008 and Math Olympiad 2009 hosted by Bangladesh University of Business and Technology" The 4th IWYMIC winning thing isn't in the source, and the 2008 NMO isn't either. Can we have indept RS for claims of success etc?? Most/all schools and unis lie on their CVs, unfortunately
        • "Dhaka Residential Model College is noted for its academic performance and extracurricular activities, having produced many notable alumni including leaders in business, the military and state and national politics as well as senior government officers, scientists and engineers.[5][6" source only says it is "coveted" and doesn't say anything about influential people
        • "The institution was awarded 'Best College' in the 5th National Debate Festival 2010, the largest debate contest in the country organized by the National Debate Federation Bangladesh" - nonsense the source says that it was won by another school; this is in the lead
        • Other victories mentioned in the lead, with no independent source

In short the article has lots of unsourced stuff, or nominally sourced stuff linking to bogus cites. Many claims of great achievement link to sources that say no such thing, or to school sources. This article gives the perception of a puff piece, especially as all of the wrong/dubious information are positive claims and make the article more incorrectly POV, and there is nothing negative in the article YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:13, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. In addition, the claim that "DRMC is one of the most competitive schools in the country" goes to this which says nothing of the sort. Another one is that the source for Mohamed Mijarul Quayes being a alumni does not mention it, so it's useless. The "Best College" source says "Best College- Eden Women’s College, Residential Model College, ...", which presumably refers to this one, and to multiply winners. Imagine the offline and other-language sourcing just as bad. As pointed out, sourcing is extremely shoddy, and the article should be stripped of its GA status. Christopher Connor (talk) 10:01, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Eden thing is in Barisal, another city, so someone else won. Yes this article should not be GA. It is a joke. YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 10:52, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 17:51, 7 September 2010 [81].

Albert Stanley, 1st Baron Ashfield edit

Nominator(s): DavidCane (talk) 22:32, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Another in my series on the early history of London's transport system. An exceptional administrator, Stanley was running the Detroit tramway system at the age of 20, the New Jersey tramway system at 32 and most of London's railways, buses and trams by 38. From 1916 to 1919, he was a member of the British cabinet as President of the Board of Trade. In the 1920s he was the driving force behind the creation of London Transport and led it through its "golden era". For something to do in his spare time he was a director of the Midland Bank and ICI. DavidCane (talk) 22:32, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - one double redirect (Baron Ashfield), no dablinks, no dead external links. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:08, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Removed. It used to point to a summary article on the Barony but it has recently been turned into a redirect.--DavidCane (talk) 23:52, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments -
  • No publisher for the Spanish American War Centennial site. (http://www.spanamwar.com/yosemitecrew.htm) and what makes this a reliable source?
    • It's there to link to additional information. I've found the book that the website references online, so I've linked to that, although his mini-biography there is a bit inaccurate about his knighthood, which was not a baronetcy. I've moved the Centennial website to the External links.--DavidCane (talk) 00:05, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • What makes http://thepeerage.com/p7739.htm#i77386 a reliable source? (Hint... it's not.)
    • Just there to provide the date of the wedding and confirm the name of his second daughter. Barker, Who Was Who and the Times Obituary say that the marriage took place in 1904 and that he had two daughters but are not explicit on the date of the marriage and the daughters' names. I've found a Court Circular in a 1923 copy of the Times that gives both of their names, which can be used instead.--DavidCane (talk) 00:05, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Likewise http://openplaques.org/plaques/360?
    • The English Heritage citation provides a reliable ref. This was added by another user, but as it provides a link to a photograph of the plaque and a location map, I left it in. I've moved it to external links. --DavidCane (talk) 00:05, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:55, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment—the lead seems far too short for an article of this size. Ucucha 07:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I knew there was something I'd forgotten to do. It's always the lead. I have expanded.--DavidCane (talk) 00:05, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Overall, looks like a very finely researched article, splendid job. My one suggestion is to clarify his term of service at the head of transport things - which establishes his importance and gives the reader a little more reason to be interested in this fellow. At the moment, the lead looks like this (and I know you may still be working on it):
In 1907, his management skills led to his recruitment by the struggling UERL which he quickly helped recover from a financial crisis and then managed during the London Underground's greatest period of expansion.
He was Member of Parliament for Ashton-under-Lyne from December 1916 to January 1920 and was President of the Board of Trade between December 1916 and May 1919.
Two questions spring out at me here: first, you don't say exactly when the Underground's "greatest period" was; and second, you don't indicate that he had a long career at the helm of things nearly until his death - long after 1919, the last date mentioned in the lead. All this is brought out eventually in the course of the article, but it's nice to have a quick summary at the start.
I think you could easily improve the lead in these respects with just one more sentence or so in the lead, nothing too elaborate. Cheers! Textorus (talk) 15:15, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. When you know a subject well, it's sometimes difficult to see the obvious bits that others are likely to find important. Of course his dates need to be there. Done.--DavidCane (talk) 21:44, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I know just what you mean. I just created the article Pensacola and Atlantic Railroad - which is not ever intended to be FA status. Still, if your time permits, you might give it a glance and tell me what obvious omission(s) I've committed. Grin. Textorus (talk) 00:02, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question: Should not "former Prime Minister Andrew Bonar Law" be future P.M.? Kablammo (talk) 20:43, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, fixed. I don't know when that error sneaked in. --DavidCane (talk) 00:24, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 17:51, 7 September 2010 [82].

The Harbingers edit

Nominator(s): d'oh! talk 01:35, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because after a copyedit and a bit of a expansion since the last FAC, I feel this article meets the FA criteria. d'oh! talk 01:35, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 06:37, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments -
  • What makes the following reliable sources?
  • Footnote 6 - "The Gatekeeper..." the "original" link doesn't work any longer, might as well remove it.
  • I have a concern about the number of sources consulted here. What I'm seeing is that there was an article in this horror fanzine Bloodsongs and that's pretty much the only major discussion of the game outside the game booklet/game website.Is there nothing else? I did a google news search and turned up nothing at all.
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:45, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You are right BGG is not a reliable source as its a wiki too I believe, but the reviews on BGG was used to show the reception of the game by gamers. WOF was the biggest fan website for the game on its release as such the creators did a few interviews with them. Only the interviews was used in the article. For footnote 6, the dead link was removed. I do have other sources for this game, like an article in the Business Review Weekly, which back ups most the other sources, but didn't add much more other than one piece of information, which is why it was largely left out. I also just added info from an article in the The New York Times. 15 years has past since this game was released, so sources was a bit hard to come by. Thanks for the comments. d'oh! talk 15:37, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WOF and BGG still won't work as sources, however, as you need to show a reputation for fact checking, etc. Right now the vast majority of the article is sourced to primary sources - the game itself. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:46, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WOF and BGG has both been removed. The use of primary sources doesn't appear to be a issue in other FA articles, but if its is a issue I will try and address that issue. d'oh! talk 04:21, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Respectfully, that particular FA was promoted 2 and a half years ago. I'll leave the last issue out for other reviewers to consider. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:42, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's OK in terms of prose. A few points:

  • "Players who fail to become Harbingers within ten minutes must play the main game as "Soul Rangers"—miserable scavengers who play to their own rules." It's towards the top, so I bothered to scan for reps. "who obey their own rules" might avoid play play?
  • top ten best-selling games.
  • Typo space after atmosphere) ,
  • then then. Why not remove both, since we know its a sequential narrative.
  • "until either they are released by the Gatekeeper,[18] or they collect the Keystone" ... perhaps "until either they are released by the Gatekeeper[18] or collect the Keystone"
  • six different colour Keystones: the difference in colour is the requirement? If so, "six Keystones of different colour" might be clearer.
  • Should Video board game be a "main article"? I'd have thought a link within the text, or in "See also" at the bottom.
  • Does the fair-use image pass our WP:NFCC 3 and 8?
  • Down the bottom, a link to "List of Australian inventions" (must be a small list). Isn't this of sufficient interest to tell us during the narrative? Tony (talk) 10:39, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
All done. The images should pass both #3 and #8, since both the game board and video is detailed in the article, and the images aid the readers understanding of the game. Trying to combine the two images or drop one will confused the reader and mislead them, into thinking the game is only a board or video game. Thanks. d'oh! talk 11:24, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 08:28, 7 September 2010 [83].

Santana discography edit

Nominator(s): Taro-Gabunia (talk) 05:14, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... Taro-Gabunia (talk) 05:14, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose Discographies are, by definition, lists, so the proper venue is featured list candidacy. But don't bother just yet. The lede needs to be three-four solid paragraphs, against the single sentence it is now. The references need to be proprly formatted with title, work, author, publisher, publication date, and access date. (Many won't have all of those, but as much as possible needs to be given.) The chart positions need to be cited. There's a ten chart max for discogs, where you have 20 in one table; far too wide for usability. When it's ready for FLC, don't start the list with "This is a list..." find something more interesting for the lede sentence, see recently promoted discogs if necessary. This is a worthy article to work on, but it's not yet up to scratch, and when it is, FAC is the wrong venue anyway. I'd suggest you withdraw this candidacy. Courcelles 05:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment—2c: inconsistent. Large number of works cited lack author or editor attribution, publisher, date.
  • This article should have been nominated at WP:FLC, but doesn't appear ready for that either, nd should probably to go Peer review. Archiving. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 08:20, 7 September 2010 [84].

Jack Coggins edit

Nominator(s): Avi (talk) 07:51, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I have just completed the implementation of most of Ottava's excellent suggestions after the last, failed FAC. At this point, I think the combination of the suggestions from the last FAC together with the critical review on the articles talk page, makes this ready once again to brave the rigors of FAC. -- Avi (talk) 07:51, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—no dab links, but the external link to http://pastelsocietyofamerica.org/main/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=52 is dead. Also, for an article this size, I think the lead should be more than a single paragraph. Ucucha 11:27, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Interesting, it was two smaller paragraphs that I thought looked better as one. Does anyone else agree with Ucucha? And I have replaced the dead link with a live one, thanks! -- Avi (talk) 12:18, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I think the way to make the lead more than one paragraph is not just splitting the existing paragraph, but adding more text to it. WP:LEAD#Length suggests it should be two or three paragraphs. Ucucha 12:27, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Not counting spaces and references, I get around 11,000 characters for which the WP:LEAD#Length suggestion is one to two paragraphs, so I think one is fine for now, although I am eager to hear more constructive criticism about it. -- Avi (talk) 15:31, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: If the lead fulfils its required function of providing a concise overview of the whole article, it doesn't really matter how many paragraphs it's got. Does it do the job? is the question. Personally, I'm more concerned about the scrappy nature of the "Biography" section. Such sections need to maintain a continuous chronological or near-chronological narrative. In this case we more or less jump from 1933–34 to his marriage in 1948. The actual biographical information is very thin throughout the section, with significant events such as his loss of an eye reported almost laconically. The sources for information on his early life appear to be two magazine articles, and I can't help doubting the accuracy of some of the information (for example, if he left England in 1923 aged 12, he wouldn't have been old enough to have attended an English public school). There are also prose oddities, such as "Jack was born in the Sydney's barracks". The article's milestone history shows that it hasn't had a peer review since 2006, its GA status dates from 2007 (re-confirmed 2009) and it has failed two FACs. At this stage, in all honestly, it doesn't read like a finished article. Definitely should have had a new peer review before coming here, and maybe that would still be the wiser route. Brianboulton (talk) 00:07, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please check the talk page. This was subject to a detailed review by User:Ottava Rima in 2009. Whatever one may think of him, he had a fantastic eye for copyediting and prose. As for the articles, they are both well-fleshed out and perhaps the only extant biographical information outside of the obituary. Reliable sources are reliable sources. -- Avi (talk) 00:10, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am trying hard not to oppose this, but I find the above reply somewhat complacent. "Reliable sources are reliable sources" is a meaningless phrase; sources can be "reliable" in terms of WP definition but can still give incomplete or even inaccurate information. Sometimes it is necessary to dig deeper than the most conveniently available sources. Ottava's prose review of 2009 is very much weighted to the "Illustrator, author and artist" sections; the biography section comments are little more than nitpicks and don't address any content issues. There are significant matters to deal with in this section, including the accuracy of the information, the filling of lacunae and questions of balance—at present the loss of his eye gets the same degree of attention as the "meaningless" naming of his house. Brianboulton (talk) 09:12, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. This isn't ready, as BrianBoulton is almost too kind to say above. What's clear is that the sections dealing with Coggins' later work are substantially more developed than the biography and early career material, making the whole article seem uneven. A few specific examples:
    • The lead is to short to adequately summarise the article, but what's worse is rather untidily constructed. For instance: "He is also known for his books on space travel, which were both authored and illustrated by Coggins." Using "both" here makes it look like Coggins only wrote (why "authored"?) two books.
    • "After moving to New York, Coggins enrolled at Roslyn High School in Roslyn Heights". Did he move to New York on his own? What about his parents?
    • "Coggins's interest in sailing and maritime subjects began in London when he would sail model yachts on Round Pond in Kensington Gardens." What is "would sail" meant to convey that the rather more direct "sailed" does not?
    • "During the early years of World War II, Coggins took a sampling of his war illustrations to Worthen Paxton". Why "sampling" instead of "sample"?
    • "Appearing on July 15, 1940, this was the first of many war time illustrations for LIFE. Some of Coggins's works are in the Anne S. K. Brown Military Collection." I just can't see the connection between those two sentences.
    • "Because of the quality of his maritime illustrations, Coggins was invited by publisher Doubleday to provide artwork for a children's book about the U.S. Navy; the author being Fletcher Pratt". Can you see anything wrong with the way that sentence ends? "Being Fletcher Pratt"?
    • "During the late 1940s and early 1950s Coggins' marine art was featured on covers of Yachting Magazine[28] and other publications, as well as on advertising material.[29], and his science-fiction art illustrated covers for pulp science fiction magazines". Not sure what's happening with that sentence, or the punctuation there. I can't quite discern the meaning of "science-fiction art illustrated" either.
    • "Due to reduced interest in his pre-war work, Coggins applied for a position teaching watercolor at Hunter College." Moving swiftly over the misuse of "due to", what has the reduction of interest in his pre-war work got to do with anything? What about his war work, or his post-war work?

Malleus Fatuorum 14:29, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose I agree with the points above, and in addition, when the subject seems mainly notable as a painter, more than one sentence on his artistic style is needed at FA. Johnbod (talk) 00:34, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 02:42, 4 September 2010 [85].

University of Texas at Dallas edit

Nominator(s): Oldag07 (talk), Stan9999

I am nominating this for featured article because it has gone through enormous improvements over the last several months, and all concerns from past peer reviews have been met. Oldag07 (talk) 22:50, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • They resolve for me at this time. I believe the site may be timing out due to a traffic issue caused by their new 2010 rankings.Stan9999 (talk) 12:31, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment the newspapers/mags in the rankings section and refs need to be italicised, many of the areas have "m2" without superscripting, and some hyphens in numbers in the rankings need to be turned into ndashes. YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 06:43, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I believe I fixed these to specification. Although there was a lot of cite web templates used where cite news templates should have been used. fixed that too. Oldag07 (talk) 13:10, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • This probably stems from copying and pasting data, not realizing it does not contain format-independent characters viz. m₂/m². ―cobaltcigs 08:12, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: The building photos are in the public domain. Other photos are works of NASA or the US Air Force and also in the public domain. The seal, logo and athletics logo have fair-use rationales. I will let others decide how appropriate all three are, but the FURs appear to meet policy guidelines. Imzadi 1979 → 06:47, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - While it is a good start, I think this nomination is premature. The last peer reviewer promoted this article to C-class just four days ago and recommended GAN as the next step. I have to agree. I share the reviewer's concerns about the lead and overall quality of prose. But my primary concern is the very heavy reliance on school websites as sources. Surely reliable third-party sources could be found for more of this article. I would kindly suggest withdrawal, more work on referencing and prose, and a pass through GA before relisting here. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 18:23, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Good points all around. The reliance university articles have on university websites seems to be a common concern. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that this is a very young school with only a division 3 athletics program. I would appreciate more opinions on this page before closing this nomination. Thanks Oldag07 (talk) 22:38, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments -
  • UT or University of Texas? Better to use the second, and be consistent.
  • See comments on "idiosyncratic capitalization of the definite article" below. It is very common to call this school "UTD". Less so "UT Dallas", but it is still pretty common. There is a need for consistency, but there is also a need to use different names for the same thing over and over. At a glance, "UT" is used just as much as "OSU" is used in Ohio State University and "UT" is used for the University of Texas at Dallas. Oldag07 (talk) 13:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Cecil and Ida Green ref (current ref 9) is actually a book, so should be formatted as such.
  • What is ALTA? UTIMCO? ASCE? CSISS? Please spell out abbreviations used in the references.
  • ALTA is not an abbreviation but the name of the org. Corrected the rest.Stan9999 (talk) 18:12, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Newspapers titles in the references should be in italics. If you're using {{cite news}}, use the work field for the title of the paper, and the publisher field for the name of the actual company that publishes the paper. You also need to be consistent in this... you've got some instances of Bloomberg Business Week italicized and most not.
  • In process of correcting these references.Stan9999 (talk) 20:00, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • You cannot say to see another wikipedia article for references, you need them here in this article. (Current ref 35)
  • Current ref 47 (Kiplinger Top 100) is borked somehow.
  • Current ref 104 (Construction goes up) lacks a publisher
  • A concern is that large chunks of this are referenced to either sources from UT Dallas itself of to the websites of the particular organizations/companies that are being described. This is primary sourcing, not secondary sourcing, and surely there are published works on this that can be consulted. If nothing else, the various university sites aren't going to cover any controversies that might have arrisen.
  • I noted there are around 40 outside sources referenced . UTD doesn't have the extensive rich history as some of the older universities, major long standing sports programs, extensive list of notable people and has only been admitting freshmen for 20 years. Due to the short period of existence outside published works are hard to come by.Stan9999 (talk) 19:21, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:59, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
∗∗∗

A couple of notes:

  • I figured I’d link to the astronaut guy’s article in the photo caption lest readers assume he’s utterly non-notable.
  • Cleaned up some really weird table markup, but then I consider HTML Tidy more a safety-net than a hammock. Unpopular view, I know.
  • We sure don’t need a dozen section links to the same article.
  • I’m not sure whether we should respect their idiosyncratic capitalization of the definite article.
    • There was a big debate (two sections) on this page on that issue. The compromise was to respect the university's naming conventions throughout the article. However, we would keep the "The" out of the title of the wikipedia article. Still more input on that debate would be appreciated. Oldag07 (talk) 13:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Article teems with glowing praise. Nothing about crime on campus [89] [90] [91], budget cut protests [92], etc. You know, something to re-assure readers this isn’t a paid advertisement.
    • Agree with the statement. However, note that the budget cut protests occurred at the University of Texas at Austin, quite a different place. Admittedly it did say that the costs were higher at UTD. I am not sure if the crime rate notably high on campus. None of the university FA's I have read, mention those stats. Still, I will look for more stuff to try to give the page a more NPOV. Oldag07 (talk) 13:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Waterview attracted a certain amount of controversy, being dubbed "the Dorm from Hell" in an April 2005 article in the Dallas Observer" was noted. I am unable to find anything else like that.Stan9999 (talk) 18:13, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Student demographic table is flawed in that it uses mutually non-exclusive terms. Also, I’m sure you mean “Anglo” as a euphemism for White American of any ancestry but that’s a misnomer many would find offensive.
  • {{Reflist|group=Note}} was empty, so I removed the section containing it. You’ll want to re-insert it if you plan to use that ref group.
  • ==External links==, when present, are always the last section.
    • Unable to find any external links in the body of the article, perhaps I missed something?Stan9999 (talk) 19:29, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

―cobaltcigs 08:12, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I meant the section called “==External links==” which I moved to the end but which previously was positioned much higher. ―cobaltcigs 19:58, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose—Poorly written.
  1. I am inclined not to go along with some pretentious insistence by a university, and even more by a "system", on the upper-case "The". This has come up before at the MoS. I see there's no "The" sticking out in "the Graduate Research Centre", etc.
  2. "With a number of interdisciplinary degree programs and over 50 research centers and institutes its curriculum is designed to allow study that crosses traditional disciplinary lines and students participate in collaborative research labs." This is a clumsy and over-long sentence. "More than" would be nice. A comma after "institutes" to avoid the jostling of two nouns in a longish sentence. The last clause doesn't flow from the previous clauses.
  3. Where there's more than one "and" in a sentence, and one is ranked more highly in a structural sense, a comma after it would be good: activity", and the
  4. "High research activity" is pretty awful out of context, anyway ... is it cloud research? Better a "high" level of research activity.
  1. Comma after "commencement" and after "alumni".
  2. Remove "located".
  3. "acres" is an epithet qualifying "industrial park", not a noun itself, and should be singular. Remove "located" again.
  4. Bad sentence: "Almost 600,000-square-foot (56,000 m2) of new facilities have been added from 2007 to the summer of 2010 with another 280,000-square-foot (26,000 m2) planned to be completed by 2012." No hyphens. Here, "feet" is the noun, so plural. "planned for completion".
  • I believe I have corrected most of the points. Thanks for your help!Stan9999 (talk) 02:56, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

On this basis, the whole article need urgent attention by unfamiliar copy-editors. Tony (talk) 01:28, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • I keep hammering away at this article. Reviews by unfamiliar copy-editors would be greatly appreciated.Stan9999 (talk) 03:19, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actively search for them: creates linkages with others who can be future collaborators. Try looking through the edit-summaries of the history pages of similar FAs and GAs to identify the word people. Tony (talk) 04:39, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments – Some quickies on the Athletics section:

  • Before ASC is used as an abbreviation, there should be a definition provided after the initial use of the full American Southwest Conference. Putting the abbreviated version in parentheses immediately afterward is the most common way of doing this.
  • "Baseball and softball also made its third consecutive appearance in the ASC post-season tournament." Doesn't work well because baseball and softball are two different sports; therefore this should be "their third consecutive appearances...".
  • Remove space before references 117 and 118.
  • "before falling in an OT loss." In this case, I think general readers will understand this better with "overtime" instead of OT.
  • Intramural sports: The first sentence of this sub-section could use a capitalization check, as there are some words that probably don't need the capital letters. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 02:13, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Dabomb87 23:24, 3 September 2010 [93].

The Wizarding World of Harry Potter edit

Nominator(s): Themeparkgc  Talk  06:41, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I feel it meets the FA criteria. I have worked on this article to reach it to GA status. Most recently I requested a peer review which resulted in a variety of recommendations that I have incorporated. Themeparkgc  Talk  06:41, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: There are grievous grammatical errors and riotous rhetorical disasters in each of the first three sentences of this article. Please archive expeditiously.—DCGeist (talk) 07:30, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, suggest withdrawal - this article is not ready for Featured status. A quick scan reveals immediate problems with structure, spelling and prose, such as:

  • "After the closure of Harry Potter Movie Magic Experience in Australia, the rumours returned." - no rumours have yet been mentioned.
  • "Appraisal by both Harry Potter fans and general guests alike of the attention to detail and the immersion that the land provides." - not a complete sentence.
  • "This popularity has lead to long queues ..." basic attention to spelling.

PL290 (talk) 08:41, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I peer-reviewed this a couple of weeks ago; my comments are found here. In my review I refer to "the major overhaul and expansion that the article requires if it is to be considered as a FA candidate". There has been some expansion, and an effort has been made to tackle the specific sample issues I raised, but the extent of the work required to bring the article to FA standard has perhaps been underestimated. The prose is ragged in places, as noted above, and needs the eyes of an uninvolved editor. The existence of so many citations in the lead indicates that this section is not doing its proper job of summarising the main article content, per WP:LEAD – the citations should be in the article itself. The article has undoubtedly improved since I last saw it, but it still needs a lot of work, including an independent copyedit. Brianboulton (talk) 09:10, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. Redlink image? large, unnecessary non-free file lacking a rationale? Random bold text? This needs serious work, there's a lot wrong at the moment. A lot of the sources are very questionable. Harry Potter fansites? YouTube videos? Excessive use of primary sources? Loads of theme park websites of questionable reliability? Formatting on references is also poor... 1, 2, 30, 40 and 42 for example. This needs a lot of work before it is ready for FAC. J Milburn (talk) 09:12, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please end the pain: Several edits have been made to the lede. The first sentence is now acceptable. The rest is a minefield.

  • Second sentence: "The area is one of seven themed areas within the park." Not fluent English. Try "It is one of..."
  • Third sentence: "The concept of a Harry Potter theme park attraction first occurred within Universal in late 1990s or early 2000s." Not fluent English. People have concepts. Concepts occur to people. Concepts may be raised within organizations. Concepts do not occur within organizations.
  • Third sentence (again): "The concept of a Harry Potter theme park attraction first occurred within Universal in late 1990s or early 2000s." Basic grammatical failure. "In the late 1990s".
  • Fourth sentence: "Upon approaching the author of the books, J.K. Rowling, Universal discovered AOL Time Warner owned the rights to the franchise." Failed narrative. What "books", pray tell?
  • Fourth sentence (again): "Upon approaching the author of the books, J.K. Rowling, Universal discovered AOL Time Warner owned the rights to the franchise." False sourcing. Two inline citations follow this sentence. Neither source mentions AOL Time Warner.—DCGeist (talk) 10:34, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Suggest withdrawing and finding more reliable sources for the information. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:08, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Under-referenced and full of grammatical errors. I'd give more detail, but I feel it would be pointless; this article needs serious work. I agree the article should be withdrawn. Tom (talk) 22:48, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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