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Poop patrolEdit

Thanks for the message about poop patrol. I had a look at it and been thinking, but I've not had a chance to do any work on it yet. Sorry for not contacting you sooner. I'll try and find some time to have another look. Edward (talk)

Thanks Edward, much appreciated. ϢereSpielChequers 19:27, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
I've had a go at implementing my own version of poop patrol. My prototype is available here:
It is built using the Wikipedia search API, so all the results are live. It has support for safe phrases and safe articles. Right now there isn't an interface for adding safe phrases. Edward (talk) 22:16, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Thanks Edward, that is really useful, I have already fixed a hundred or more typos with it. ϢereSpielChequers 14:33, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
a few issues with the prototype:
  • Some pages don't become safe articles despite multiple clicks, it is almost as if the mark as safe article button is disabled for pages such as shoegazing, or possibly if it is a safe page for stared it can't also be so for staring.
  • The fifty exceptions limit seems to be on fifty examples of the word being found rather than fifty examples after screening out safe pages and safe phrases. This makes it a bit of a faff going through a report such as staring which has over 20 screens. not subdividing it might be the best solution here.
  • Sometimes the same exception keeps recurring, almost as if the next batch of fifty is calculated on a sometimes differing index.
  • @Edward: An odd one. When I clicked on Who's That Boy? I wound up at the article that Who's That Boy redirects to, as if the questionmark had been displayed but ignored.
  • Would it be possible to import the existing lists of safe pages into the new system? I noticed with causalities that many of the examples are on the existing safe page list. This is particularly helpful for ones like pubic where it can take a bit of research to add each example to the safe page list. ϢereSpielChequers 08:16, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Currently there are two numbers, one on the list before you select a report and one in the report. For example Strecher appears as Strecher (8) with a result that says 7 results. I think the 8 comes from the first time it was run with your software and 7 is the number of examples screened out by safe words and safe phrases. Both are interesting, though it would help if the 7 was subdivided into safe pages and safe phrases. But more important is the number of articles still to check, if as in the case of strecher this is zero then there is no need for me to check that report.
  • Smelly and Poop can come off the list, I started the thing with poop and cleared up lots of old vandalism, but I think one of the edit filters is stopping the new stuff. However there are a number of others worth adding. Idealy the current list would be as per User:DeltaQuadBot/Job requests, though I suppose I should move that. ϢereSpielChequers 06:01, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

I've dome some work on Page patrol. The latest prototype is in the same place:

There are now pages that list the safe phrases and safe articles for each term. It is possible to add new safe phrases.

The fifty examples after screening problem is due to the way that the mediawiki search works. I can only get up to 50 results at a time. I get 50 results, then filter them and display them. The solution is to use more Javascript. I should show the first set of filtered results, then in the background request more results from the search engine, filter and add them to the current patrol page.

I have a look at adding the existing lists of safe pages and at adding the terms from User:DeltaQuadBot/Job requests.

The numbers are all off, maybe of the hit counts are returned from the search engine before filtering. To fix this I need to download all the search results, filter and safe to the database. This would take more time, I didn't make it a priority.

I'll take a look at the question mark problem. I need to URL encode the article titles when generating links to Wikipedia.

Edward (talk) 13:43, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

I've been working on fixing some of these problems. The new plan is to cache search queries in the database instead of trying to use the live search engine.
The article titles from the search results are saved to the database with safe articles filtered. The search engine is used to find articles that contain safe phrases and filtered them as well.
The API will be used to download and save the full text of each article. Snippets showing patrol terms within article text will be generated and stored so the patrol pages can be rendered quickly. The patrol pages will include a pager that works correctly, showing a fixed number of articles per page.
A user can either identify an article as safe by clicking the 'safe article' button, or follow the link to the article and fix the vandalism. When the user clicks 'safe article' it will trigger Javascript add to the list of safe articles in the database. The user will see the article removed from the list without needing to reload the page.
There will also be a 'vandalism fixed' button. This will trigger the article text to be downloaded again and checked to ensure the problem has been fixed. The article will be removed from the patrol page using Javascript without a reload.
Using this technique means the search result numbers on the index page and patrol pages will be correct. Edward (talk) 08:52, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
Hi Edward, I think what is happening is that the search includes the safe phrases, but the fifty are then filtered against the safe pages. So searches with a lot of safe phrases work well but ones with lots of safe pages can involve quite a few tedious trawls through empty batches before you find anything. Also there seems to only be one safe page list for all queries, and the system errors if you need to put the same page as safe in more than one query. ϢereSpielChequers 09:17, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
I had to take "Salle à Manger" out of the safe phrase list for manger as it caused crashes. ϢereSpielChequers 21:59, 9 February 2016 (UTC)


I'm starting to draft an RFC User:WereSpielChequers/Private Space RFC, comments and collaboration from observers would be welcome. ϢereSpielChequers 10:40, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

And in this corner...Edit

I hope you don't think I'm beating up your idea. I actually find it quite interesting with great potential, it just raises a lot of questions of how to manage since it is so different than anything we have done before. I'm peppering you with a lot of questions, but others will be asking the same in time anyway. I'm curious as to if the Foundation would interfere and say no to such an idea for some reason, ie: "it is against the open nature". Anyway, it is very thought provoking and I just wanted to make sure you knew the questions were because it intrigued me, not because I was against it. Dennis Brown |  | WER 15:19, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

not curlyEdit

Saw that on my watchlist and wondered what the tarnation does that mean? Looked at the diff and laughed. Well done. It is nice to laugh for a change amongst all the vandalism entries on the watchlist. Bgwhite (talk) 07:24, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, it took a while to get that one under control, and there are still a few music lyrics where I'm really not sure whether to put them on my safe page list or not. But I reckon to make two or three typo fixing not curly edits per week. Curiously I'm seeing less vandalism nowadays, especially with that particular search, I suspect someone has set an edit filter to stop edits that include removing the first l from "public schools" as I used to get one or two of that sort of vandalism every week. I also stopped patrolling for "poop", lots of vandalism when I first went through all the articles that contained that word, but nowadays not enough to be worth manually checking for. ϢereSpielChequers 11:45, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
And in the case of Empire Air Day, does show I wasn't copy+pasting form the sources  !--Shirt58 (talk) 10:48, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Editor retentionEdit

Any watchers interested in looking at User:WereSpielChequers/2010-2014 Editor retention test? ϢereSpielChequers 17:03, 25 August 2014 (UTC)


Note: that this may include non-place entities, e.g. people in the category tree that have burial coordinates. But then there may well be a nice photo of their tomb/grave/crypt.

If you let me know any items without coords or with images, improvement may be possible.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough19:47, 5 February 2015 (UTC).

Thanks, that's brilliant. I spotted that where the infobox and image are being delivered by a template your program doesn't realise there is an image see Lochaber Narrow Gauge Railway. Also Zeta Island, Bermuda a Dutch volcano Zuidwal volcano a pass in South Georgia Zigzag Pass and a museum in Abu Dhabi Zayed National Museum are not quite in the UK, though the volcano is close. ϢereSpielChequers 22:39, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
There's not a lot I can easily do about abuses like Lochaber Narrow Gauge Railway - content is not supposed to be abstracted away like that, though I understand the reasoning if there are many uses of the template - in this case there is only one. Conversely, of course, if the template was used on many station pages, then a generic image would not suffice.
  • Zayed National Museum was in the category "British Museum"
  • Zeta Island was included because Category:Islands of British Overseas Territories was a sub-cat of "Islands of the United Kingdom"
  • Zuidwal volcano was included because Category:North Sea is a sub-cat of "Bodies of water of the United Kingdom" (among others) (not changed yet...)
  • Zig-Zag Pass was probably included because of a similar British Overseas Territories miscat, possibly Category:British Overseas Territories and Crown Dependencies being a sub-cat of "Government of the United Kingdom"
All the best: Rich Farmbrough18:02, 8 March 2015 (UTC).

Comments and collaborators pleaseEdit

I'm starting to draft something on meta meta:User:WereSpielChequers/spot_checking. ϢereSpielChequers 14:07, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Going off the boil?Edit

Hey. I took up your invitation. Some comments:

  • Theories are great; and I have another one. But, without verification, they are pure speculation and nothing more.
  • You mentioned about typos being less common, and are often fixed quickly. Of note, there's an abuse filter that picks up on canned edit summaries including "fixed typo" (see this). Thus, in recent changes log a well meaning user fixing a typo will come under increased scrutiny, with a higher chance of having their edits reversed.
  • Along with typos, you mentioned vandal fighting as a gateway task. It would be interesting to conduct a comprehensive analysis to find out what productive new editors of this generation are doing. If we knew that, we could focus our resources on maximizing opportunities for new editors to become connected with now-relevant gateway tasks.
  • There's a saying I learned a long time ago. The factory of the future will have two employees; A human and a dog. The dog's job is to keep the human away from the machines. The human's job is to feed the dog. Wikipedia is heading towards this paradigm. Increased automation, decreased editorship, fewer things that need to be worked on.
  • You commented on increased mobile surfing. Very true. Desktops are dying. It will take time, but desktops will become artifacts as obsolete as typewriters. [1] Portable devices make horrible editing devices and always will. Nothing yet can replace the efficacy of a keyboard. Until that happens, mobile platforms will be permanently handicapped. The world record for texting is 25 words in 18.19 seconds [2]. This works out to 82 words per minute, if it could be sustained. I type faster than that on a keyboard, and I'm just an average guy on a computer. The world record top speed for sustained typing is 150 words per minute (and the record holder sustained that for better part of an hour). Whoever comes up with a better interface for mobile devices is going to be a billionaire. I digress. The point is the mobile platforms mean editing will permanently decline.
  • All the good stuff is already done. We have nearly five million articles now. People like to feel good about their contributions. If all you're doing is tweaking a few things here and there, it's not very rewarding. If you're starting the articles on the Nile, God, Superbowl X, etc. you feel like you're contributing. If instead any article you can think to create has already been created, you feel like you can't contribute. I had a personal case of this; there's a place I've visited a couple of times that is on the national historic register. It's an amazing place! It is frequently visited and toured. Yet, it did not have an article on it here. Rather bizarre. So, I had a not-so-devious plan. I was going to create an article from absolute nothing to featured status with just one substantive edit. I even bought a book on the place in support of this. I took my own photographs, took notes on the tour to verify in other sources, found a multitude of solid sources, and began writing. Just as I began writing, someone created the article. I was sorely disappointed. I haven't even touched the article. Pout :) But, I hope you get my feeling on this.
  • It isn't just that we need a wysiwyg editor. Trying to get people to learn new systems is very difficult. We have to create something that mimics how things are done in MS-Word and other significant desktop editing platforms. The markup language we use, while intuitive for me after years of use, is horribly archaic and difficult to learn. It is as archaic as TeX. Case point for me; at a job I had I installed a wiki on our Intranet, to allow people to easily write things up and share them with everyone. There were a couple of geeks who took to it like ducks to water, but the organization as a whole never did anything of consequence with it. We later moved to SharePoint, which allows people to edit things in MS-Word, and it took off.
  • On snark; I've long held that the WP:NPA policy is null and void. I've been directly attacked by a whole host of editors, admins and even a bureaucrat. Nothing every happened to them. Personally, I think the policy should be deleted. It creates more controversy and disappointment than it solves. Witness that we did away with Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct. Doing away with WP:NPA isn't much of a stretch of the imagination. It is very rare that people who are deliberately insulting ever have more than a soft warning tossed their way. People don't like confrontation. Case example for me; I know of an administrator who is extremely rude, and frequently bullies people who disagree with him. He doesn't directly insult anyone, which is how he gets away with it. Plenty of people have complained about him, but nothing is done. I've committed to avoiding him at all costs, knowing that any complaint against him will fall on deaf ears and it will only lead to more grief. As a result, there's a section of the project he frequents that I have largely avoided. Result; less things for me to work on that I want to work on.
  • Simplifying our policies and guidelines isn't going to happen. They are ever expanding. I concur with the reality that this generates difficulty for new users. The learning curve is enormous and fraught with a huge number of potholes where you get negative feedback telling you how badly you messed things up, and how you would have done better if only you'd read War & Peace first.
  • As you know, there's been quite a bit of change in the stratification of editors. Unbundling has contributed, but so has 'upbundling'. Excuse my neologism; I mean rights normally available to brand new editors are no longer available. Given that we have bots that quickly deal with vandalism, given that much of our content comes from IP editors, partially shutting them out of the process is antithetical to our purposes. I refer in large part to the pending changes and autoconfirmed rights. They sound good on paper, but I would speculate they have significantly impacted gateway tasks for new editors. I also find the template editor right insulting. I should not have to plead my case before someone to get the right. The bureaucracy for it is already large (Wikipedia:Template_editor#Guidelines_for_granting,Wikipedia:Requests for permissions/Template editor) and this will increase. We want to reduce the monstrosity that is WP:RFA yet create more crap like Wikipedia:Requests for permissions. Unbundling achieves only a stratification of bureaucracy; it does not eliminate it.

So, there are my comments. Enjoy. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:11, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

  • PS: I took so long to write this I got "Sorry! We could not process your edit due to a loss of session data. Please try saving your changes again. If it still does not work, try logging out and logging back in. "
Thanks, I don't agree that all the good stuff is started as I know of subjects where that is far from true. But I'd concede that it is true for many of our existing and former editors, so I've added User:WereSpielChequers/Going_off_the_boil?#All_the_Good_stuff_has_already_been_done. I'm familiar with the term upbundling, though I use it more for various proposals to shift certain admin rights just to crats. I agree that there have been changes that are disconcerting for newbies, the classic being that if you cite your first edits you are going to have to complete a capcha, if you don't you will get reverted and maybe bitten by others. I became autoconfirmed in 2007, and in those days you could add uncited edits without getting bitten. I was autoconfirmed long before my first cited edit so never had the capcha hassle, but we need a better less bitey way to handle that. ϢereSpielChequers 15:12, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
  • On the 'good stuff'; I saw a study a while back that showed disparity in areas of Wikipedia. The types of people attracted to Wikipedia will of course have subject areas where they are plentiful and subject areas where they are not. The areas where we do not have a lot of contributors certainly have lots of 'good stuff' to start. But, we don't attract the types of editors that fill those voids. The types we do attract find little in the way of voids where they can contribute. As to the captcha problem...holy crap! I had no idea that was part of the editing process for newbies now. That's sick! On rights... I eschew having any special rights. I shouldn't have to jump through a bureaucratic nightmare to edit a template after I've been here for many years with tens of thousands of edits and one inappropriate block that was placed by an admin who has (for an unrelated event) since been relieved for cause. The idea that I could be here so long, have done so much work here and still not be trusted without jumping through a bunch of hoops is absurd to me. I am an editor. Nothing else. If you can't trust me, you might as well shut down the project. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:31, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Admin, Crat Oversight and checkuser are the only rights that involve jumping through hoops. If you want Reviewer and Rollbacker you have but to ask. As for admin, RFA may be crazy but a 2008 block should be ignored, I'd be stunned if even one maverick opposed over that. ϢereSpielChequers 20:30, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
  • On Capatchas... holy crap. I got a new account for my WMF internship and had to ask to be manually confirmed. It was way more of a hassle than I ever thought it would be. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 15:37, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Capchas are a complete pain, I can sort of understand IP editors needing to do them and also them being needed for new account creation - apparently a test of dropping the requirement saw us spam botted. But I don't see any gain in requiring capcha for links added by new accounts. PS are you going to Mexico? ϢereSpielChequers 20:33, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Sorry for the late response. I think my brain went off the boil. Anyway, to your 20:30, 14 July 2015 comments above; people oppose RfAs for all sorts of crazy reasons. I would be surprised if someone didn't oppose an RfA for a years old block. As to additional rights, I don't want to ask for additional rights. If my time here isn't enough for me to have rights to perform editing functions without having to ask, then I don't deserve them. Five years ago, an administrator gave me additional rights without me having to ask. I asked him to undo his changes (which he did without any resistance). Wikipedia has long walked away from the idea of empowering the simple editor to being able to build something magical. This is wrong, and is a foundational issue to the problems we have with editor recruitment and retention. But, to date, our response has been to continue to stratify users into ever more rights groups. By keeping my simple status as an editor I stand against this stratification. It also has the added benefit of understanding the viewpoint of editors who are relatively new to the project. My anecdotal conclusion; we treat them like crap. I think we treat any editor that does not have additional rights like crap. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:49, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

I think we mistreat lots of our volunteers in various different ways, but I don't agree that it is as simple as mistreatment of editors who lack additional rights. I occasionally edit as an IP when I'm on an insecure connection, and my typo fixes as an IP don't get reverted. I've also been involved in several outreach editathons training new editors. Sometimes the participants ignore my advice and create an article that they can't find independent reliable sources for and then have it deleted, but newbies who add referenced content rarely have problems here. If anything lack of userrights can be used as a shield by some editors. ϢereSpielChequers 09:42, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

IT that does useful thingsEdit

Anyone watching this page might enjoy meta:Grants:IdeaLab/Community prioritised IT developments - you all have four votes. ϢereSpielChequers 22:13, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Nominating for Autopatrolled user rightsEdit

Hello WereSpielChequers! At our earlier discussion at WT:Autopatrolled you said "Many people get nominated or are nominated for this user right, and occasionally when we have a list I and others trawl through the list of prolific article creators and appoint suitable ones as autopatrollers." Well, I'm starting to parse through the data to try to figure out how many editors there are with 20-50 (non-redirect) articles created (which I'm having to do manually via Wikipedia:List of Wikipedians by article count!) But what I'm finding alarming is the number of (still active) editors that have 50-100 (non-redirect) articles created and who don't have "Autopatrolled" rights! So, I'm thinking that I'd like to nominate some of these for Autopatrolled rights – How do I do that? Thanks in advance! --IJBall (contribstalk) 20:14, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi IJBall, the simple answer is that you can nominate them at Wikipedia:Requests_for_permissions/Autopatrolled - though you might want to check a bit more than just the raw number of articles created. However I'm hoping to get one of my contacts to start producing the list of prospects again, 14 months after it last ran there should be a good crop of editors ready for this userright. Extracting it manually from the Wikipedia:List of Wikipedians by article count sounds like a much more time consuming thing as a lot of those editors will already have the right directly or as admins, and those that don't need to be checked out, some will have already lost the userright due to copyvio or creating unreferenced BLPs, and some will still be creating articles that get deleted for notability reasons, doing some of those checks is a lot quicker if you have admin rights and can look at deleted revisions. So I don't want to sound discouraging, but I wouldn't want you to waste hours of time doing something that a computer may be about to resume doing. ϢereSpielChequers 21:01, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
Yep, that's exactly what I'm having to do: weed out Admins (and the occasional Bureaucrat), and exclude anyone who hasn't edited in a year or more. I'm also checking to see if they're already "Autopatrolled" at less than 50 articles created (I'd say about 20% are...). I'm not sure I have the stomach to do this for the Top 10,000 Article Creators, but I will definitely finish this out for the Top 5,000 (I'm already up to about #2,200 right now...) So, progress!! I figure some numbers here for my proposal are better than none! (I'll hope the people that lost Autopatrolled due to Copyvios, etc. is a very small number here – hopefully ~0.) P.S. Thanks for the answer on nominating – I won't be nominating any of those editors today (with maybe just a few exceptions! – I've already seen 2–3 editors that I know should be Autopatrolled!), but I may come back later, on a day I'm bored, and check the 50–100 article editors, and think about nominating some of them for Autopatrolled... --IJBall (contribstalk) 22:02, 4 August 2015 (UTC)


WereSpielChequers, as you're one of the people who likes data, I thought I'd report what I found out... I manually looked through Top 5,000 in the List of Wikipedians by article count looking for editors who had created 40-49, 30-39, 25-29, and 20-24 (non-redirect) articles (note: the data wouldn't let me filter out Diambiguation articles easily so, unfortunately, they'll be included in the count - oh well...), respectively, excluding from the count any:

  1. Admins or Bureaucrats
  2. editors blocked for cause, and
  3. editors who hadn't actively edited within approximately the last year.

It was a "hand count" so, unlike a bot, it's probably not "100%" accurate (I'm sure I missed an editor from the count here or there...). And it's certainly not the "complete data set" of everyone in the Wiki. But I think it's decent enough data to draw some conclusions from. Here are the results:

Number of articles created by number of editors, and Autopatrolled rights
# of articles created Total # of editors # of editors with
Autopatrolled rights
% editors with
Autopatrolled rights
40–49 72 8 11.1%
30–39 61 8 13.1%
25–29 47 4 8.5%
20–24 38 6 15.8%

A couple of follow-up thoughts: While I didn't keep a "hard count", I would say about half of the editors in the table above already had some kind of "extra permissions" (e.g. Rollbacker, Reviewer, File Mover, or combinations of any of these) even if they didn't have Autopatrolled. Also I recognized a significant percentage of the names from this list, and nearly all of them appeared to be long-time editors. IOW, I'd say nearly all of these can be put in the category of "trusted editors". So considering all of that, and the percentage of editors with less than 50 created articles who have already been granted Autopatrolled status, I can't think of any good reason not to go ahead with my proposal to drop the Autopatrolled permissions requirement to somewhere between 20–30 (non-redirect, non-disambig.) articles created (with 25 articles created being my likely suggested level). There's clearly a significant number of medium- and long-term "trusted" editors who would benefit from a lower requirement for Autopatrolled, and lowering the requirement will also hopefully help take some of the burden off the Page Curation crew.

I may try and put together the proposal for VPP tonight, but if I don't I may not get to it until 24 hours from now (as I'll have to run errands tomorrow during the day...). As always, any thoughts on your end are welcome. Thanks again! --IJBall (contribstalk) 03:32, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

The tricky thing is not establishing that we have lots of editors who have created that many articles, but establishing the point where such a large proportion will be ready for autopatroller that it is worth lowering the bar. I realise that my own experience is likely to be somewhat skewed, in going through the list of people who have created lots of articles but who don't yet have Autopatroller I am looking at the list after many people have pulled out good candidates and given them autopatroller. So maybe if someone went through a batch of people who have created forty articles they will conclude that it is worth doing, but there are two prices to remember. Firstly assessing candidates takes much longer than patrolling a single article, and can only be done by an admin, we may be short of new page patrollers but we are even shorter of admins. Secondly we don't want to set people up to fail; If we lower the bar to forty but more people then get refused because their work isn't yet good enough, then we don't just waste admin time, we give a group of goodfaith editors a negative experience. ϢereSpielChequers 21:38, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

User:WereSpielChequers/Edit WarringEdit

Opinions on User:WereSpielChequers/Edit Warring would be welcome. ϢereSpielChequers 15:59, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

WMF / Auto sign on talkpagesEdit

The WMF put out some extremely misleading statements. Some of your comments in the Village Pump discussion were incorrect (not your fault).

  • Now that Flow is deprioritised - Nope.
  • The WMF is asking for community input into things they could do instead of FLOW - Nope.

I spoke with the Flow project manager[3]. They have not diminished work on Flow, they are working full speed ahead on specific features for Flow. When the WMF says that their new work is going to be driven by the needs of the Community, they mean they decided what they wanted to give us, then they did research interviews with a couple of editors, then they shoehorned those responses to fit what they wanted to build. I spoke to one of the people they interviewed - the WMF staff interviewing him didn't even know the Community had already built the functionality they are working on. Specifically they are building a replacement for scripts like Twinkle, except their version won't work on existing pages. The Flow team is going full speed ahead, building a project that largely duplicates functionality we already built, and they are deliberately designing it so it won't work unless we convert every goddamn page on Wikipedia into Flow chatboards. Oh.... and it doesn't work unless you switch to Visual Editor too.

In the last election for WMF board of directors, all three elected candidates ran on a platform that Flow could not be deployed if the community didn't want it. So.... the WMF is restricting new development and support to Flow. If we want any new features, if we want any continuing support, we have to take Flow first. There's not much chance of the WMF willingly picking up the autosign project. They want our editor *gone*. Alsee (talk) 19:40, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, interesting. Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-09-02/News_and_notes "Flow on Ice" did seem to me a pretty clear sign that Flow was no longer in fashion at the WMF. The dinosaur takes time to change, but in my view that sort of comment is usually code for "this project is dead", due to the obfuscation the message may get out more slowly, and due to its sauropod like nature the WMF's hind legs might still be moving for a while after the brain has squawked end. But I had stopped worrying about Flow. Though this implies that you may be right, staffers may still try to get it deployed wherever they can get consensus. ϢereSpielChequers 19:55, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Hello againEdit

It's possible you may vaguely remember me. We had a fair bit of contact several years ago, but I became pretty disillusioned by certain aspects of the whole project (specifically with regard to fair use images) and I have been on pretty substantial wiki-break. Now I'm willingly getting pulled back in to things and I'm once again finding everything for the most part interesting, challenging and enjoyable.

Anyway, I was wondering if you might have any observations you might share about how editing culture has changed since 2011. There are a few things I have noticed that are at least as bad, and in some ways worse, than they were before:

  • I still see speedy deletion being horribly misapplied, in ways which can only discourage new editors. I'm looking at an article which was tagged as A1 and G2, neither of which was valid, eight minutes after it was created. I doubt that user will be back.
  • The new (to me!) Articles for Creation process doesn't seem to have significantly changed things. I regularly see drafts that are really in pretty good state being declined by editors who want to hold them to punitively high standards of referencing. I'm looking at a draft that has three quality references to reliable sources which specifically discuss the topic in depth, which has been declined now by the same editor three times in a row, with the same reason given - "needs more references". The same editor declines drafts for hours on end at a rate of roughly two per minute. Unsurprisingly, the same editor is also an offender for inappropriate speedy deletion tagging.
  • Free-content idealists are still chipping away at fair use images, unnecessarily making the encyclopedia progressively less useful as they work in pursuit of a goal that I do not share (an encyclopedia entirely built from free content, even if it means removing screenshots from articles about historically-significant GUIs). I'm staying away from this topic area because it's what led to my quitting in frustration last time. I do feel it's unfortunate that those policy and deletion debates are so dominated by editors with a stridently anti-fair-use point of view, and I'm not sure that they reflect the true consensus of the community.
  • I keep seeing what appear to be deletion campaigns based on racial or religious grounds. For example there is an editor who is a significant contributor to articles on Sunni Islam, who also seems very keen on getting articles about Shia Islam-related topics, and Shia-believing individuals, deleted. I recently rescued an article about a significant topic in Sikhism (to be fair, the article was a pig's breakfast, and the "rescued" version is basically a stub). We have well-written, well-sourced, multiply-linked articles about "XXX in Catholicism", "XXX in Islam", "XXX in Buddhism" etc, but there was a serious argument from the nominator and an AfD participant that "XXX in Sikhism" was "not notable", a position that is so removed from reality (even reality as revealed by ten seconds of Googling) that I struggle to assume good faith.
  • There seems to be an increase in the number of new articles from India, the Philippines, etc, and other places where English is not the primary or only language. I think this is a good thing - it reflects the global reach of the project, and increasing global participation is something to be proud of, not a problem to be solved. But new page patrollers in particular seem to disregard non-English sources. They don't seem to know how to Google non-latin-alphabet names. I don't think this is deliberate racism, but the behavior is racist in effect.

I suppose a lot of these things could have been written in 2011. Maybe not much has changed. Certainly the ongoing trend away from the "optimistic content creators" of 2006 towards the "pessimistic gatekeepers" who will eventually control everything is very noticeable when you take a few years away.


Thparkth (talk) 15:09, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Hi and welcome back! Yes CSD is an ongoing problem, but as we found with WP:NEWT resolving it one way or the other risks tearing the community apart. I do occasionally decline incorrect speedies and try to educate patrollers, but its a thankless task. There is a new speedy deletion process but it largely missed the point and for example changes such as disabling A1 and A3 as options for the first few minutes were rejected out of hand. I'm more enthusiastic about our chance of protecting more of our established writers from deletionist mistakes, once I get a bot writer to refresh the prospect list we can appoint a load of overlooked ones, the sort of people who create an articles a fortnight and have done so for years.
AFC is a failure and I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking so. Part of the problem is that it keeps articles out of mainspace so they don't get collaborative editing, and anyone can decline an AFC submission whilst only an admin can delete a new page in mainspace. I would advise against any goodfaith newbie using it.
Disregarding non-English sources is a problem, people who !vote delete at AFD with rationales such as "no English sources" should soon get the message when admins close as no valid reason given for deletion. A bigger issue is when people who rescue articles don't know how to use non English articles. Is there an essay explaining how to do so? If not would you consider writing one?
Yes there has been greater growth in areas such as India, I assume this reflects growing internet use in such places. My view is that editing Wikipedia is not usually an entry level Internet task, I don't know if the rule of thumb still holds that it takes two years from getting internet access to using it for shopping. But I'm expecting there to be a lag between growth in internet use in an area and growth of the Wikipedia community in that area. This is greatly complicated/hindered by the problem that the smartphone is not as good an editing devise as a pc, and in many areas the increase in Internet use is basically a smartphone phenomena. I'm hoping that we have little overt racism here, but we've yet to come to terms with issues such as people in poorer societies having less access to free reference sources, or even the reliable sources in some countries being much more extensive than others. On the plus side there has been a huge growth in Commons, not least because it is much more inclusionist than Wikipedia, and part of that growth has been European museums digitally releasing images from their former colonies.
I can't comment as to whether partisan deletion tagging has become more or less common. The biggest such battle I've been involved in was before you left and I don't know whether my experience is indicative of anything.
I'd agree we have a problem with gatekeeping, but I'd diagnose it slightly differently. The community is roughly the same size today as it was four years ago, but we have significantly more articles; So we probably have less of a problem with people owning articles and rejecting any change to "their" work. But we have more of a problem with people who treat unsourced changes in the same way we used to treat vandalism. Personally I'm quite moderate on this issue, but I draw the line at an unsourced change to sourced information, and with a growing proportion of the pedia being sourced even with my stance there is much less room for editors who contribute uncited content. ϢereSpielChequers 17:00, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
Lots to digest there. For now, is there any chance you could share the kind of criteria you're thinking of with regards to protecting established editors? Is there any existing "prospect list"? Thparkth (talk) 14:06, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:Database reports/Editors eligible for Autopatrol privilege is worth looking at and explains why Wikipedia:Database reports/Editors eligible for Autopatrol privilege isn't currently fit for purpose. ϢereSpielChequers 11:24, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
So from what I understand, you're looking for editors who have created articles in the last 30 days, who don't currently have autopatrol, and who meet the general autopatrol eligibility criteria of having created at least 25 articles. At that point presumably you and other administrators would want to manually review the persons article creation history with a view to proactively offering them the autopatrol right. I've written a little bit of MediaWiki::API code that might be helpful in identifying those users. It isn't a bot - it doesn't make any edits, and it's run manually for now.
I have put the output from a limited test run in my userspace here (based on editors who created pages in the last day, rather than the last 30 days). Note that I don't bother counting pages created if it goes over fifty, because it takes longer and is unnecessary since the guideline threshold is twenty-five. Even from this limited amount of data it is clear that there are many users who should really have autopatrol.
I would be grateful if you would let me know if this going in the right direction. If so I will work further on it.
Cheers, Thparkth (talk) 05:00, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
Further to this, I updated the page with my output data with the complete data set, and also upped the maximum creation count to 200. This should pretty much be the complete list of users who meet the criteria of having created 25+ articles, not currently having autopatrol, and having created at least one article in the last month. Thparkth (talk) 12:16, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
Hi, that's good, almost there, and you've got rid of the bots. Running it daily means we might miss the person who creates an article every week or two, and they are a key group I'm trying to find an appoint as autopatrollers here; so if it could pick up anyone who has created mainspace article in the last 30 days that would be better. Also I'm not sure whether you are excluding redirects and creations of pages outside mainspace. This editor has over a thousand according to your list, but I could find only twenty mainspace articles they had started. ϢereSpielChequers 23:20, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
Hello, apologies for the confusion from the contradictory information as I worked on the code. The current version of the report does indeed consider all of the users who have created articles in the last 30 days, not just those from the last few days. It also does exclude redirects. However it appears that the "count how many articles the user created" method I am using inadvertently includes the File: namespace, which is why the numbers are anomalous for the user you referenced. I'll go work on that now :) Thparkth (talk) 01:03, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
Update - I have fixed the issue with the inclusion of non-mainspace contributions in the count. Updated data (for all users who have created articles in the last thirty days) is in the same place, User:Thparkth/autopatroltest. Thparkth (talk) 02:45, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
Nicely done, I've started appoint autopatrollers from that list. Do you want to start refreshing Wikipedia:Database reports/Editors eligible for Autopatrol privilege, that's where people look for it, and we can mark the request as fixed once you refresh it there. ϢereSpielChequers 13:13, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
  • I agree with much of what Thparkth says but he's perhaps getting too black a view by looking at speedy deletions and AFC which, by their nature, tend to be negative in nature. The number of articles is still going up steadily – see WP:5MILLION – and the rate seems to have increased in the last year or so. So, overall, the content creators are still gaining ground. Where they have got the hang of this, this seems to happen without much fuss and so is perhaps just hard to discern. Anyway, welcome back and feel free to ping me if you need help with something. Andrew D. (talk) 09:49, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Hello :) What is perhaps not obvious from what I wrote is that speedy deletion was something I was heavily involved with in 2011 as well. I really do notice a less patient, less forgiving, less encouraging mood in the project today versus then. It was already pretty WP:BITEy back then, but it is worse now.
That is the continuation of a long-term trend that I have observed from my earliest days as a Wikipedian when as a brand new editor I created a number of shitty unreferenced articles (in mainspace directly, no less!) and was immediately welcomed by a real person and constructively engaged in cooperative editing. Today I wonder how many templated warnings I would have earned instead.
In my mind, the early days of the project were dominated by optimistic, imaginative, open-minded content-creators who loved the idea that they could significantly contribute to an encyclopedia article on a major topic. "Geology", "James Watt", "Scotland", "Christianity" - they were all missing or stubs. How exciting is that? But over time the trailblazers got burned out, or bored, or just weren't interested in writing about minor topics. On the other hand, there was a need for a new kind of editor - one who would make incremental improvements, and create new articles on minor topics, but who would also defend the encyclopedia from the growing menaces of vandalism, POV-pushing, and commercial interests. This time also corresponded with the explosion of policies, guidelines and the zoo of acronyms that we cheerfully throw at each other nowadays, and it was also the time when newcomers began to be treated with suspicion and distrust.
A few years later and we have a situation where new article creation is becoming an eccentric minority interest (and we more or less have a default assumption that any article a new user wants to create is probably a bad idea), where WP:NPP is played like it's a MMPORG where score is kept by counting the number of pages deleted and new editors banned (the goal being to level-up to admin, at which point you have completed Wikipedia and presumably will stop playing it), and where a huge amount of human effort is spent discussing, criticizing, documenting, and ultimately supporting an ever-more-self-referential quasi-judicial bureaucracy that is so many steps removed from the stated goal of building an encyclopedia that it is sometimes alarming. (Why are we arguing about the fairness of the process for establishing a consensus as to how to run an election for membership of an arbitration panel? Don't these people realize that Semiconductor is still a WP:SHITTYARTICLE?
Now you may take issue with the factual accuracy of some or all of the above, and you may be right - it is largely bullshit. I am looking at the past through rose-tinted eyeglasses, and I am being more cynical then necessary about the present. But I do genuinely believe that somewhere along the line we have stopped assuming good faith about new editors, and the foundational principle of being the encyclopedia that "anyone can edit" (and which anyone else may fix afterwards if necessary) may no longer be the consensus position of the community.
I guess this is where I see myself fitting in, in a small way. I am motivated to look out for new users, particularly those who have created new articles. There are some new users whose contributions we would not miss, it's true, but it breaks my heart to see someone's genuine, well-intended best work be slapped with an A7 and their talk page pasted with warning banners all because some wikipedian with a hundred thousand twinkle edits and a complete lack of empathy is ignorant of its importance. I know this is a concern WSC and others share. I'm not proposing any major changes to the processes - they are mostly quite well designed. I'm just advocating for a kinder, more empathetic, and perhaps less-rushed approach in dealing with newbies. Much as we need new pages patrollers, we can't ever get into the situation where we are significantly more welcoming to new patrollers than to new good-faith content contributors.
Thparkth (talk) 17:02, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
2011 wasn't perfect either- have a look at some of the problems we battled over in WP:NEWT. My theory is that the drift from the wp:soFixIt society of the pre 2007 era to the subsequent WP:SoTagitForSomeHypotheticalOthertoFix era is an ongoing process. the article rescue squadron is one of the responses. My hope is that we can get the WMF to do some technical changes, in particular reducing the edit conflicts caused by people categorising and templating new articles. The difficulty is in getting WMF support for change. ϢereSpielChequers 22:22, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

I know and have been following Wikipedia articles for many years though I never knew how to write or edit one until a few months ago. I am from India and yes, people are getting more involved about from where and how all that information is coming. I am new writer and I have made a few edits; making edits is easier now due to visual formatting. It's very helpful.

Dishita Bhowmik (talk) 17:49, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Users eligible for AutopatrolledEdit

Thought I would move this discussion into it's own section, hope that's OK.

I could definitely update Wikipedia:Database_reports/Editors_eligible_for_Autopatrol_privilege but that page "belongs" to the Database Reports project and Community Tech Bot is updating it with its slightly-less-useful information twice each month. I suspect it is theoretically possible to have my script run through that mechanism, but I haven't worked in that environment before and there would likely be a learning curve involved. Going that way may end up being dependent on the same overworked volunteers who haven't yet been able to action your request to modify the current report.

It would be much, much easier to put my data somewhere else. Any thoughts?

Finally I have updated User:Thparkth/autopatroltest with data from December 18th.


Thparkth (talk) 22:22, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

@Thparkth: Your list does look useful. I hope you get some help on this, as your list will be much more helpful than the current Database Report version... You might want to contact NKohli (WMF) about your version. --IJBall (contribstalk) 21:08, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

New listEdit

I have forgotten how I created the old list, but I found a note on Meta from you asking for a list split by {{Infobox UK place}} vs everything else.

As I remarked I am still severely restricted in what I am permitted to do, so the list(s) will have to be placed in my user space, from where they can be copied, moved or transcluded.

I have been tussling with a huge (somewhat related) issue of producing accurate region codes for some 100k+ articles, success rate is now about 87-88% (compared with much less than 50% before I started) but of course the last 20% is going to be 80% of the work.

Nonetheless the first list should be uploaded soon. The rest will have to go on my todo list for now.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 03:46, 12 January 2016 (UTC).

Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Femto Bot 7. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 21:11, 17 January 2016 (UTC).

Towards a New Wikimania resultsEdit

Last December, I invited you to share your views on the value of Wikimedia conferences and the planning process of Wikimania. We have completed analysis of these results and have prepared this report summarizing your feedback and important changes for Wikimania starting in 2018 as an experiment. Feedback and comments are welcome at the discussion page. Thank you so much for your participation. I JethroBT (WMF), Community Resources, 22:47, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

decline in auto confirmed numbersEdit

I've been doing some stats, extra eyes welcome. User:WereSpielChequers/auto_confirmed_before_and_after_visual_editor ϢereSpielChequers 22:26, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Precious anniversaryEdit

Three years ago ...
native tongue as tool
... you were recipient
no. 432 of Precious,
a prize of QAI!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:46, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Four years now! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:51, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

... and five! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:47, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

... and six! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:47, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Users eligible for autopatrol... finally!Edit

It's been a while but the all-singing, all-dancing, new version of the report code is now working and its first results are on the report page. I would be grateful if you would let me know about any problems you identify in the output.

Thanks for setting me along this road by the way - this kind of work is a lot of fun for me, and I now have all the access required to fix, modify, and create new reports without undue delay. Thparkth (talk) 23:37, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

WSC – I can confirm that this list is now useful again! I'll start looking through it on my end for editors I recognize to let them know about applying for autopatrolled... --IJBall (contribstalk) 17:51, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Dodgy edit needs oversightEdit

Hi, This nasty (and untrue) attack should probably be oversighted. Cheers, Johnbod (talk) 13:21, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

I've revision deleted it. If you think Oversight is merited you need to go thataway. ϢereSpielChequers 14:56, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
Thanks - no, this is what I meant! Johnbod (talk) 16:11, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
Hmm - Fram has now undone this, or something. Johnbod (talk) 12:41, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
It seems that a number of my fellow admins disagreed with my decision to use revision delete, though at least some of them agreed that the comments merited removal. So my admin action has been partly overturned, and the decision is already closed for further comment. Sigh. ϢereSpielChequers 14:35, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
Well, thanks anyway. Johnbod (talk) 14:39, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

You've got mail!Edit

{{you've got mail}} TheSandDoctor Talk 03:40, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Discussion at User:Kudpung/What do admins do?Edit

  You are invited to join the discussion at User:Kudpung/What do admins do?. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:33, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Esther Charlotte BrandesEdit

Which Princess?Xx236 (talk) 07:46, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Hopefully this one ϢereSpielChequers 07:54, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Halo (religious iconography)Edit

Here, which has been essentially stable for over 10 years, a bunch (or one) of shifty, shifting ISPs have shown up edit-warring (with edit summaries that are either misleading or insulting) to put a rather horrible modern Jain image at the top of the article. He/they are also up to Indian nationalist stuff at Gilgit, Himalayas and I don't know what redacted here. This registered ac seems part of the party. Any chance of restoring the oild version and protecting for a bit? The Jains weren't even heavy users of halos until recent centuries, & the second pic at the article is already Indian. Sorry I didn't make yesterday - rather busy & very hot! Cheers, Johnbod (talk) 15:48, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Oh, and this reverted lot may need more. 2xcheers! Johnbod (talk) 15:56, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Thank you!Edit

You've fixed a lot of my shoddy reduplicative errors ("the the") etc recently and I appreciate it a lot. › Mortee talk 21:54, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

You're welcome! ϢereSpielChequers 05:42, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

the ''[[The → ''[[The in AWBEdit

Hi - I noticed that you've removed the second the in "the German adaption of the The Best Singers series.", and that you've performed a large number of similar edits with AWB. I don't think this is correct, however, as the final the is part of a proper noun which forms a separate syntactic unit, so the preceding article is still necessary, in my understanding - although a rewording of the sentence would most likely be preferable, as the repetition of the is obviously awkward. If there is an obscure grammatical rule permitting omission of the article, I would be pleased to read it, but otherwise I'd request that you be more careful or stop using AWB for this particular change, and go through the previous such edits again. Thanks. Kranix (talk | contribs) 18:09, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Hi Kranix, I have edited a number of "the the" instances, but not the one you link to, did you mean to link to something else?. Glad you agree that the repetition of the is obviously awkward. Do you want to give an example where you would have resolved this differently? ϢereSpielChequers 18:20, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
Sorry, I forgot the link. The sentence I was referring to appears in Silbermond. Kranix (talk | contribs) 18:23, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
OK, so you prefer: of the The Best Singers series over of The Best Singers series. I think that of the The is awkward and my solution an improvement. What alternative do you propose? ϢereSpielChequers 18:38, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
I don't think it should be either way, but I also don't think we should change an awkward construction to an incorrect one. I went ahead and changed it to the "the TV series The Best Singers". The best course of action when going through this with AWB (or otherwise) is to perform a minor rewording like this; if that's not obvious, I would just skip the page. Kranix (talk | contribs) 18:46, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Dispute resolutionEdit


I hope you're doing well. I want a dispute resolution about the arguments I have been having with another user named Vauxford. These arguments started at the Toyota Hilux page when I removed his image on the grounds that the vehicle involved was not in a good condition as per WP:CARPIX guidelines in response to which he admitted that he didn't like those guidelines and insisted that the vehicle couldn't be found in good condition. His claim was proven to be false as there were better images of the vehicle at Wikimedia Commons. Full discussion can be be found at Talk:Toyota Hilux. Then he began to argue about his image being placed in the main infobox of the Audi R8 (Type 4S) page when it was already present at the Audi R8 page. He even took a matter which could be solved through a talk page discussion to administrator notice board and this resulted in both of us being blocked for 24 hours because of his constant arguments there. When the block was lifted, he agreed to let the current image stay in the main infobox after other editors made clear that it really wasn't any different from the standard model of the vehicle. He suddenly started arguing that his image should be placed within the article as there was a lack of pre facelift image of the vehicle there when there was an image of the subject matter present in the article. Full discussion can be found at the Talk:Audi R8 (Type 4S) page. Then when I replaced the image on the BMW 5 Series (E60) page with an image having better quality. He started to argue that the previous one was fine when it clearly wasn't. It was a low quality image which couldn't be viewed in thumbnail mode properly. I discussed the matter on his talk page but he didn't reply there. He started his own discussion at the article's talk page and obtained his concensous without notifying me of such a discussion. Now I started my own discussion and isolated him from giving an opinion since he didn't allow me to give my opinion on the prior discussion. He kept commenting about the background of he photos I proposed when his photos clearly involve such backgrounds. He didn't stop there, after a concensous was reached again in the discussion, he again reverted the edit claiming that a concensous was not reached and that his concensous held more weightage when clearly his concensous involved far less photos from users to choose from. He then began accusing me of framing him as a "bad person" when his actions were of that way and other users had also complained about how he reverted edits in that discussion. Full discussion can be found here Talk:BMW 5 Series (E60).

Now I'm not claiming that my behaviour in these arguments have been the best as his behaviour is also irritating and annoying. Such arguments are not only destructive but are also damaging my credibility as an editor. They are also wasting my time which I spend in defending arguments. Now I request you, as an administrator, to please solve this dispute so that we can focus to contribute to Wikipedia.

Have a nice day. U1 quattro TALK 13:14, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm going to tell my side of the story. Surprisingly, most of what you described was exactly what happened. However, just to clarify those "other users". One of which was 1292simon which you provoked him to say something about it and I admit I did the same thing when I wanted them to know about the previous photo which I was defending and to make sure that wasn't being thrown out of the discussion. The other user Alexender-93 is not actually active on the English Wikipedia. He mostly edits on the German Wikipedia but every often he just goes to all of the Wikipedias and replace any existing images of the subject with his, to me he was simply at the wrong place at the wrong time.
Keep in mind, U1Quattro has made a few accusation on me, most of which were simply not true. One of them he claimed that I was favouritiseing certain photographers because I once had them on my user page as a Top 5 favourite photography list. But I did that list back when I first joined Wikipedia 2 years ago and was still settling. I found it slightly elementary nowadays and my views had changed with these photographers so I removed it, it unfortunate coincident that I did this edit during when the feud between me and U1Quattro began. Another thing he didn't put the effort of doing is by checking who the author of the photograph that I was actually defending and simply place assumption and used it as facts.
The fact I ended up getting me and U1Quattro was my fault, I had no intention of doing that for malicious reasons and I guess that when the started to erupted. I'm sorry that I caused all that, I was just in a panic and did it without thinking straight, I should've done it on the talkpage discussion which I have learnt now to do rather then edit warring which that hopefully apply to you as well. --Vauxford (talk) 19:31, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
I've been thinking about this, started to draft some advice, slept on it, and now I have the pair of you here. Welcome both, draft answer now metaphorically torn up. One of our most important policies is assume good faith, and another is civility, both are well worth rereading. I'd rather not go over old ground and say which of you I think has been less civil, I'd rather ask if you are both willing to bury the hatchet and assume good faith of each other in the future? ϢereSpielChequers 08:05, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
I'm more than willing to bury the hatchet and let this dispute be a thing of the past. However, as annoying and rude Vauxford has been, I'd rather avoid him in the future.U1 quattro TALK 08:59, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
Although it would be nicer if this was kept in the past, avoiding each other will be awkward since we edit the same articles. --Vauxford (talk) 12:27, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

California Online Community CollegeEdit

Hello. The California Legislature created the "California Online Community College" last year. Please make a "stub article" about this new college and notify me that you have done so. I will then start filling in the details about the new college.

See California Education Code Section 75001.

Thank you. Scott Gregory Beach (talk) 16:06, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Hi Scott, education in California isn't really my subject area, I'm more into iron age hill forts. Something set up last year may not yet be notable for wikipedia, but if it is getting non trivial coverage in reliable independent sources then it may be ready for an article. If so this wizard should help you through the process. ϢereSpielChequers 17:19, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

"Cutting slack"Edit

I think you misunderstood what I was saying here. That is in large part my fault as, in keeping the comment brief, I evidently wasn't clear enough. My point isn't about treating longstanding candidates more favourably. It's a different one. Where someone has been editing the project for years, and those opposing wish to raise *a pattern* of problematic behaviour, there is a naturally going to be a need to provide more evidence. It is a similar point to the one I made back in Wikipedia:Requests for bureaucratship/Nihonjoe 4/Bureaucrat discussion so not a new approach by me. In that chat I said: "What I find surprising is that Nihonjoe is not an unknown quantity when it comes to making these sorts of a decision (as an RfA candidate might be) - he has been an admin for 3 1/2 years. But those opposing do not, as one might expect, cite a range of incidents over that period where he displays this alleged tendency - instead the conclusion is extrapolated from his participation in a discussion with Ryan last month. I have to say that I find this problematic - there is a dearth of examples of other instances of problematic judgment." I was intending the same point in relation to RexxS, i.e. if RexxS is routinely uncivil, given his long tenure on the project I would expect more than the few instances that were cited in the RfA. Ping @Adrian J. Hunter: who pinged me [4], and understood my comment as I intended. WJBscribe (talk) 13:37, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Hi Will, thanks for the explanation, now you put it that way I can see that mine was not the only possible interpretation of your words. Apologies for misunderstanding you. I still think it would be worthwhile to have a discussion as to the sorts of things that crats could or should take into account when closing RFAs, but sadly the mood at WT:RFA is not currently conducive to such a discussion. Re the tenure thing, my test as an RFA voter and nominator is more whether there is old bad behaviour, does that persist, are there recent examples? That isn't quite the same as cutting extra slack for long established editors, but I suppose one area where I do is the concept of an isolated incident. If there are two very similar RFAs, both with a single recent incident of the candidate losing their temper, I would be more easily convinced that this was an isolated incident that would be unlikely to recur if the candidate had been active for fifteen years without some similar incident than if they could only point to fifteen months activity without a similar incident. ϢereSpielChequers 09:46, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

You've got mail!Edit

{{you've got mail}} Dusti*Let's talk!* 20:35, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Today's Wikipedian 10 years agoEdit

Ten years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:00, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

hi, you're invited to an RfC discussion regarding Bruno Bettelheim articleEdit

As a past contributor to the article, you're invited to a Request for Comment (RfC) discussion on the article's lead sentence. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 22:19, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

ArbCom 2019 special circularEdit

Administrators must secure their accounts

The Arbitration Committee may require a new RfA if your account is compromised.

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This message was sent to all administrators following a recent motion. Thank you for your attention. For the Arbitration Committee, Cameron11598 02:51, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Administrator account security (Correction to Arbcom 2019 special circular)Edit

ArbCom would like to apologise and correct our previous mass message in light of the response from the community.

Since November 2018, six administrator accounts have been compromised and temporarily desysopped. In an effort to help improve account security, our intention was to remind administrators of existing policies on account security — that they are required to "have strong passwords and follow appropriate personal security practices." We have updated our procedures to ensure that we enforce these policies more strictly in the future. The policies themselves have not changed. In particular, two-factor authentication remains an optional means of adding extra security to your account. The choice not to enable 2FA will not be considered when deciding to restore sysop privileges to administrator accounts that were compromised.

We are sorry for the wording of our previous message, which did not accurately convey this, and deeply regret the tone in which it was delivered.

For the Arbitration Committee, -Cameron11598 21:04, 4 May 2019 (UTC)


Hi - hope all is well; I’ve just sent you an email. :-) Patient Zerotalk 00:19, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – June 2019Edit

News and updates for administrators from the past month (May 2019).

  Administrator changes

  AndonicConsumed CrustaceanEnigmamanEuryalusEWS23HereToHelpNv8200paPeripitusStringTheory11Vejvančický

  CheckUser changes


  Guideline and policy news

  • An RfC seeks to clarify whether WP:OUTING should include information on just the English Wikipedia or any Wikimedia project.
  • An RfC on WT:RfA concluded that Requests for adminship and bureaucratship are discussions seeking to build consensus.
  • An RfC proposal to make the templates for discussion (TfD) process more like the requested moves (RM) process, i.e. "as a clearinghouse of template discussions", was closed as successful.

  Technical news

  • The CSD feature of Twinkle now allows admins to notify page creators of deletion if the page had not been tagged. The default behavior matches that of tagging notifications, and replaces the ability to open the user talk page upon deletion. You can customize which criteria receive notifications in your Twinkle preferences: look for Notify page creator when deleting under these criteria.
  • Twinkle's d-batch (batch delete) feature now supports deleting subpages (and related redirects and talk pages) of each page. The pages will be listed first but use with caution! The und-batch (batch undelete) option can now also restore talk pages.


Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 09:49, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

You've got mailEdit

{{ygm}} —Gazoth (talk) 14:58, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

New article Villa degli Azzoni Avogadro (Bivai)Edit

HiϢereSpielChequers, Can you please review new article Villa degli Azzoni Avogadro (Bivai) ? Many thanks Neverstopthat (talk) 10:01, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Hi Neverstopthat and thanks for writing that. I have made a few tweaks, hope you are OK with them, if not, it's a wiki. I'd suggest changing the first link as it currently goes to a dab page. Veneto#Art_and_architecture might be the best place. If your sources cover it, the sorts of things that people often cover in articles about buildings include: Architectural style, construction material, size - number of rooms and or floors. Is it classified/protected under any heritage system? Major events such as War time experience there - I note it is close to the historic Austrian Venetian border, and in the part of Italy that was overrun by the Central Powers in WW1. You might also want to rename it to omit the (Bivai), unless you expect other articles to be written on other places called "Villa degli Azzoni Avogadro". Hope that helps, and thanks for asking. ϢereSpielChequers 10:35, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

HiϢereSpielChequers, I´ve changed the first link and added a source connected to classified heritage of the building. I wouldn´t omit the (Bivai) since the Degli Azzoni Avogadro family seems to own other Villas so Bivai specifies this particular building. I will also add a map of the alterations made by Count Rizzolino degli Azzoni Avogadro. In terms of adding more information about the history and architectural style I believe that images are presenting a clear image of how the building was and how it is now. What do you think ? Would that be enough ? Thanks --Neverstopthat (talk) 15:11, 24 June 2019 (UTC) HiϢereSpielChequers , I have added Section architecture and changed internallinks as you were suggesting . Unfortunately couldn ´t add the map of the alternations. Do you think the article is ready now to be reviewed ? Many thanks --Neverstopthat (talk) 15:51, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – July 2019Edit

News and updates for administrators from the past month (June 2019).

  Administrator changes

  28bytesAd OrientemAnsh666BeeblebroxBoing! said ZebedeeBU Rob13Dennis BrownDeorDoRDFloquenbeam1Flyguy649Fram2GadfiumGB fanJonathunderKusmaLectonarMoinkMSGJNickOd MishehuRamaSpartazSyrthissTheDJWJBscribe
1Floquenbeam's access was removed, then restored, then removed again.
2Fram's access was removed, then restored, then removed again.

  Guideline and policy news

  • In a related matter, the account throttle has been restored to six creations per day as the mitigation activity completed.

  Technical news

  • The Wikimedia Foundation's Community health initiative plans to design and build a new user reporting system to make it easier for people experiencing harassment and other forms of abuse to provide accurate information to the appropriate channel for action to be taken. Community feedback is invited.


Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 21:20, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Bob Marshall-AndrewsEdit

We have a over diligent ip- and education seems to have failed, would you like to cast your eye over this article, I have reverted twice and suggested what he needs to do make an acceptable change.ClemRutter (talk) 15:35, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

Dear Clem, good to hear from you, would you mind getting another tame admin on that one? I'll explain why at the next London Meetup - are you coming on Sunday? ϢereSpielChequers 16:27, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – August 2019Edit

News and updates for administrators from the past month (July 2019).

  Guideline and policy news



  • Following a research project on masking IP addresses, the Foundation is starting a new project to improve the privacy of IP editors. The result of this project may significantly change administrative and counter-vandalism workflows. The project is in the very early stages of discussions and there is no concrete plan yet. Admins and the broader community are encouraged to leave feedback on the talk page.
  • The new page reviewer right is bundled with the admin tool set. Many admins regularly help out at Special:NewPagesFeed, but they may not be aware of improvements, changes, and new tools for the Curation system. Stay up to date by subscribing here to the NPP newsletter that appears every two months, and/or putting the reviewers' talk page on your watchlist.

    Since the introduction of temporary user rights, it is becoming more usual to accord the New Page Reviewer right on a probationary period of 3 to 6 months in the first instance. This avoids rights removal for inactivity at a later stage and enables a review of their work before according the right on a permanent basis.

Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 19:24, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Well saidEdit

Thank you for this edit WSC. I spent part of this afternoon trying to dredge up from my memory which article it was that brought about the "reliable sourcing" policy and was coming up empty. Your post took care of that gap :-) I am always appreciative of your work here at the 'pedia - many thanks and have a pleasant week. MarnetteD|Talk 23:40, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Marnette, and a lovely week to you too. We are in strange times with a multi front mess from the WMF this time. I have had dealings with the WMF in the past, at best they will take an idea, run with it but never acknowledge the volunteer whose idea it was. At worst they hare off in the wrong direction, ignore any objections from the volunteers but do a Uturn once the flak starts to come from outside the community. A case in point, many years ago I noticed a Wikimedia handout that listed "ten things you didn't know about Wikipedia" or something similar. One of the points was "be nice to vandals, 30% of our top editors started as vandals". Now it didn't take me a whole second to know that this was an implausible and provocative claim that needed careful checking. It didn't take me much longer to track down that someone had combined the stats that 30% of our editors with the thousand highest edit counts had been blocked at some point with the stat that almost all blocks are for vandalism. Someone who didn't have such a prejudice against the volunteers here would have looked a little further and would have come up with some interesting stat such as accidents happen, and if you are one of our thousand most active editors the chance of you having been accidentally blocked approaches 25%, probably by your own mistake. Working out the error was trivial, convincing the WMF of the error took three of us 6 months using diplomatic and soft spoken methods. My conclusion was that when the WMF goes careering off in the wrong direction you should go straight for the loudest and heaviest tools that you have, and much as I hate the idea of using badsites, remember that they pay far more attention to ridicule from outside the community than they do to measured criticism from mere volunteers. ϢereSpielChequers 15:33, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
Oof that mixing of the numbers to come up with the "vandals/top editors" stat is a face palm moment. Thanks for taking the time to fill me in on how the WMF has operated. MarnetteD|Talk 01:44, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for an entertaining edit summaryEdit

correcting "wok" to "work" Quale (talk) 06:58, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

You're welcome. Last time I played chess I lost to a six year old, mind you his brother competes internationally. ϢereSpielChequers 07:58, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Guest book formattingEdit

Hi, I'm Clovermoss. I signed your guest book recently and noticed that I am listed as number 2 in a bulleted list that is much larger than that. I'm not sure how you would fix it, but I'm guessing it has to do with how the page is formatted. Anyways, I thought I would mention it here in case you were not already aware and would like to fix it. Clovermoss (talk) 22:38, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Hi Clovermoss. Good spot, I have fixed that. The formatting relies on each comment starting with # and not having any line breaks. You don't seem to have a guestbook yourself yet, any reason why not? Re the typo fixing, nowadays i use two tools, wp:AWB and one that has been written for me and is suitable for instances where there are lots of false positives so I can set safe phrases and safe pages in an easier and more effective way than AWB. ϢereSpielChequers 08:28, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
I've had the autowikibrowser right for awhile. I use it for adding short descriptions to categories of articles, but I haven't done anything else with it yet. I can't try anything new with it until I get a new computer charger (I've been editing on mobile but mostly on desktop view the past month). As for the guest book, I'm not really sure why I haven't started one yet. Clovermoss (talk) 16:55, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
My one experience of editing Wikipedia with a smartphone was a bit of a disaster, and I rarely try even with a tablet. I admire anyone who can do anything here via mobile. this is a tool that was written for me for finding easily confused words, staring, posses, preform and the like I used it to secularise loads of football mangers calvary regiments and prime minsters, feel free to have a look, I have never tested it from a mobile device. Re the guestbook, I'd be happy to set one up for you if you want. ϢereSpielChequers 17:05, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
I'll keep the link, but I don't plan on doing any automated editing (if it's even possible) while I'm on mobile, as I'm way more likely to add typos myself or otherwise mess up. Have you read User:Cullen328/Smartphone editing? I'm not sure if I would write entire articles on my phone, but it's interesting to learn about how Cullen328 has. As for the guestbook, my current understanding is that's it would just be a subpage of my user talk page? If so, I can manage that. Clovermoss (talk) 17:35, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
Mine is a subpage of my userpage, I think that seems to be the convention, especially if you want yours listed at {{User:Jack/ABs}} ϢereSpielChequers 17:51, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
Alright, done! It was nice to talk to you. Have a good day/afternoon/night (depending on your applicable timezone). Clovermoss (talk) 18:07, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

A cup of tea for you!Edit

  Thanks for your support on my recent, albeit unsuccessful RfA. I don't think we really are at odds on Framgate either. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:28, 24 August 2019 (UTC)


At [5] I am having trouble understanding what "a reason that has to remain secret is at best an own goal" means. Was this a typo? --Guy Macon (talk) 14:31, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Hi Guy, no, not a typo. When I said "if the intent of the WMF is to change behaviour on EN wiki then punishing someone for a reason that has to remain secret is at best an own goal." Part of my thinking was that I believe that the WMF do want to change behaviour on EN wiki to make it a more civil, more congenial place. I have given them examples of how I believe that could be done, for example by improving the software so that more edit conflicts are resolved without biting people by losing their edits; or by introducing account level page protection so that edit warrers can be dealt with without blocking them. They have actually picked up on the latter idea, but rather missed the point by still using the word block. By blocking Fram for an undisclosed reason they to some extent legitimise fixed term punishments for undisclosed reasons. In my view if they or the community were to accept that behaviour as acceptable and to be emulated it would make this place less congenial and more toxic. But to clarify I may strike change and replace with improve. ϢereSpielChequers 15:01, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
I agree with all of the above, but I still have no idea what an "own goal" is. A goal of their own ,and not somebody else's? A goal that they take ownership of? (Stops) Wait a minute... maybe I should look it up on Wikipedia and Wictionary. Yup. Own goal. A phrase that I was completely unaware of, because I never pay any attention to any sports other than Sumo and Chess -- and the Sumo is only because so many of my Japanese coworkers are into it. I will assume that other people understood just fine. Never mind. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:51, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
Ah, I consider myself one of the least sporty people I know, but I know certain phrases such as own goals, sticky wickets, googlies, stumped, offside and hit for six that may not be common parlance in North America. At least it isn't something that means the opposite on different sides of the pond - I do try to avoid suggesting that we table something as that would be a recipe for confusion. ϢereSpielChequers 16:38, 28 August 2019 (UTC)


The workshop page at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Fram/Workshop is closed. This is mentioned at the top of the page and in the edit notice, and the page is fully protected. You may make comments on the talk page, but the workshop itself should not be edited. – bradv🍁 21:10, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I second this. We need our good editors and admins. Please don't edit through protection for this. You can still post on the talk page and you will be able to discuss the proposed decision when it's posted. Jehochman Talk 21:22, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Deleted article from 2005Edit

I noticed that your user page mentions that you take deleted article requests. I've never made one before, but I think I might like to. I wrote a request for an article at Requested articles for Fishtail braid. I didn't really know how to write an article about it (I know how to write an article, but I'm not sure how to approach this article in particular), but I did want to read about one, and I think that that could meet notability standards. There was a version of the article that was deleted in 2005 and I have no idea on whether or not it could be helpful. Clovermoss (talk) 17:12, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

(talk page watcher) I wonder why it wasn't redirected to Hair styles per policy? Perhaps it wasn't policy in 2005 of course. Still, wouldn't get away with a close like that today... :) ——SerialNumber54129 18:36, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
Hi Clovermoss, ordinarily I would restore, draftify or userfy and let you loose on it. But in this case, as per the deletion nomination "WP is not an instruction manual" the article is simply instructions as to how one would make a fishtail braid. Plus a reference to Vogue, but without either a page number or even an issue number. Sadly even my beard isn't long enough to test those instructions with, so I couldn't test it, but if I were you I would start from scratch. As for SerialNumbers point about linking, it was considered in the AFD, but at the time there was no mention of this sort of braid in the relevant article. However, since the deletion was because it was instructions as to how one does such a braid, there is absolutely nothing stopping you or anyone else writing an actual encyclopaedia article on the subject. ϢereSpielChequers 19:06, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for the answers Serial Number 54129 and WereSpielChequers! I might get past writer's block and write the article eventually (or someone else at Request an Article will first). Clovermoss (talk) 20:01, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
Go for it! Topics that affect 50% of the global population? "I'm lovin it" 👀 🐞 🎶 ——SerialNumber54129 20:20, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – September 2019Edit

News and updates for administrators from the past month (August 2019).

  Administrator changes

  DESiegelJake WartenbergRjanagTopbanana

  CheckUser changes


  Oversight changes

  CallaneccFoxHJ MitchellLFaraoneThere'sNoTime

  Technical news

  • Editors using the mobile website on Wikipedia can opt-in to new advanced features via your settings page. This will give access to more interface links, special pages, and tools.
  • The advanced version of the edit review pages (recent changes, watchlist, and related changes) now includes two new filters. These filters are for "All contents" and "All discussions". They will filter the view to just those namespaces.



Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 00:37, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

New Page Review newsletter September-October 2019Edit

Hello WereSpielChequers,


Instead of reaching a magic 300 as it once did last year, the backlog approaching 6,000 is still far too high. An effort is also needed to ensure that older unsuitable older pages at the back of the queue do not get automatically indexed for Google.


A proposal is taking place here to confirm a nominated user as Coordinator of NPR.

This month's refresher course

Why I Hate Speedy Deleters, a 2008 essay by long since retired Ballonman, is still as valid today. Those of us who patrol large numbers of new pages can be forgiven for making the occasional mistake while others can learn from their 'beginner' errors. Worth reading.

Deletion tags

Do bear in mind that articles in the feed showing the trash can icon (you will need to have 'Nominated for deletion' enabled for this in your filters) may have been tagged by inexperienced or non NPR rights holders using Twinkle. They require your further verification.

Paid editing

Please be sure to look for the tell-tale signs of undisclosed paid editing. Contact the creator if appropriate, and submit the issue to WP:COIN if necessary. WMF policy requires paid editors to connect to their adverts.

Subject-specific notability guidelines' (SNG). Alternatives to deletion
  • Reviewers are requested to familiarise themselves once more with notability guidelines for organisations and companies.
  • Blank-and-Redirect is a solution anchored in policy. Please consider this alternative before PRODing or CSD. Note however, that users will often revert or usurp redirects to re-create deleted articles. Do regularly patrol the redirects in the feed.
Not English
  • A common issue: Pages not in English or poor, unattributed machine translations should not reside in main space even if they are stubs. Please ensure you are familiar with WP:NPPNE. Check in Google for the language and content, and if they do have potential, tag as required, then move to draft. Modify the text of the template as appropriate before sending it.

Regular reviewers will appreciate the most recent enhancements to the New Pages Feed and features in the Curation tool, and there are still more to come. Due to the wealth of information now displayed by ORES, reviewers are strongly encouraged to use the system now rather than Twinkle; it will also correctly populate the logs.

Stub sorting, by SD0001: A new script is available for adding/removing stub tags. See User:SD0001/StubSorter.js, It features a simple HotCat-style dynamic search field. Many of the reviewers who are using it are finding it an improvement upon other available tools.

Assessment: The script at User:Evad37/rater makes the addition of Wikiproject templates extremely easy. New page creators rarely do this. Reviewers are not obliged to make these edits but they only take a few seconds. They can use the Curation message system to let the creator know what they have done.

DannyS712 bot III is now patrolling certain categories of uncontroversial redirects. Curious? Check out its patrol log.

Go here to remove your name if you wish to opt-out of future mailings.

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 22:15, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

A bowl of strawberries for you!Edit

  Sorry for undoing your edit I wasn't reading correctly puggo (talk) 01:30, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
No problem, especially as you reverted yourself the same minute. ϢereSpielChequers 06:47, 12 September 2019 (UTC)


Thank you for taking the time to consider my candidacy at RfA. I appreciate the time you took to craft such a detailed statement and also for taking further time to participate in discussion with other users. Know that the feedback that you and other editors have offered me has been heard. I am not sure it will change my mind but it's definitely given me food for thought. And I very much hope in the spirit of WP:MUSHROOM that I will not spiral into inclusion or deletion but will instead continue to act in the ways that caused the community to express support in me. Know that if you have further feedback or concerns in the future that my door is always open. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:31, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Improving response to edit warringEdit

Based on your submitted process improvement idea, I've started a discussion to brainstorm more specific details. If you'd like to take the lead on shepherding the discussion, I would be happy to pass the reins over to you. Please do invite anyone else to participate who you think may be able to contribute productively. Thanks very much! isaacl (talk) 06:06, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

ArbCom commentEdit

Hi WereSpielChequers, I hope all is well. I hope you don't mind, bit I've moved your comment into its own section. We're all supposed to have our own bit for comments (aside from the Arbs, who can reply in each person's section). Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 11:22, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks SchroCat, I see the logic in that. But I'd suggest that any wikiproject or part of the wiki with its own non standard talkpage rules might consider an edit notice rather than just a comment at the very top of the page. ϢereSpielChequers 09:19, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Some stroopwafels for you!Edit

  Thanks for all the typo catches--your work is appreciated! Marquardtika (talk) 20:12, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
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