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What is this and in what context would you like it added to the article? Could someone comment on this? BlueRasberry 06:27, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
From etymology section
I just removed the following text from the etymology section. It should be returned to that section if someone can provide a source for it and explain its significance. Secondarily it out to be translated.
Another reference to Varanasi is found in a hymn by Sri Veda Vyasa:
Can someone help with this? BlueRasberry 06:30, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
Holy city
I just removed the non-English text from the Holy City section. It began like this:
Varanasi is holy city in Hinduism, being one of the most sacred pilgrimage places for Hindus of all denominations and is one of seven most holy places for Hindus in India.
“
'Ayodhyā Mathurā Māyā Kāsi Kāñchī Avantikā I
Purī Dvārāvatī chaiva saptaitā moksadāyikāh II
- Garuḍa Purāṇa I XVI .14
”
It should be returned to that section if someone can provide a source for it and explain its significance. I see that it is sourced inline to a Purana, but can someone provide a proper citation? Secondarily it out to be translated. Can someone help with this? BlueRasberry 06:36, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
Instead of removing why didn't you go ahead and find a citation? And relevance of Varanasi is what is being told here. Are you asking for relevance of relevance of Varanasi? In an article of Varanasi? I am reinstating along with a citation (found by searching... wait for it... 'garuda purana' on google. People like you are the reason people are leaving wikipedia left and right. Some one came and wrote something, taking pain in getting correct phonetics but failed to convince your arbitrary 'high' standard, so is subject to removal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.76.243.10 (talk) 13:25, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
Climate
Latest comment: 13 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
The information contained in the chart labeled "Climate Data for Varanasi" is inaccurate. A check of the citation (A webpage of the Indian Meteorology Department) reveals that the values on the wikipedia page do not correspond to the IMD records.
You are correct. The data currently on the page is unreasonable and cannot be accurate, plus it is not the same as the IMD record cited in the currently used source. In addition to that, the source given is supposed to be weather data from 1950-1980, so it may be outdated.
Weather Underground is a better source. I updated the data to reflect what they are reporting for temperature. They have no data for precipitation, and looking at other weather services, it seems that no one else does either except for the IMD. Again their data is for 1950-80, so it is not ideal, but I know of no better source so I left that as it was. Thanks for pointing this out. BlueRasberry 17:55, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
Spam?
Latest comment: 13 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
What the 8th link "Arunn Guptaa homepage"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alex-engraver (talk • contribs) 18:49, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
Expand the history section
Latest comment: 13 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
The history section is too brief; I think it needs a detailed history that a city of 3000 years ought to be worthy of. In particular, I am curious about the dynasties that ruled the city, the number of times it had been destroyed/sacked by invading armies etc. all of which are part of the history of a city. PratikMallya Talk! 22:03, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
This article has a huge number of problems. I would do some work on it if I knew of a good English-language source for the history of this city, but I do not. Do you know of any book about the history of Varanasi?
There are two related articles which also have huge problems. The Kingdom of Kashi article is about the historical dynasties which ruled the city, and the Kasi Kingdom article is about the legendary history of Varanasi.
Help me find sources and then let's improve the article together. I am living in Varanasi right now - do you also happen to be here? If so let's meet up. Blue Rasberry (talk) 01:54, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
Article rewrite by Abdullah.ansaari
Latest comment: 12 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
user:TheMandarin reverted some revisions by user:Abdullah.ansaari for being original research and for deleting a section, presumably the section on the Ramleela festival. The Ramleela section had no good content and perhaps ought to go to its own Wikipedia page. The other content, while largely unsourced, seems like common knowledge about Varanasi to me and would better just be tagged with {{fact}} tags. I just reverted TheMadarin's revert. What objections exist to keeping this content? Blue Rasberry (talk) 21:32, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
Ramleela is a very important event in Varanasi and though this section had bit of tone problems, it is extremely relevant. New introductions, "The Muslims play a vital role in politics and elections. The city north constituency has a tradition of electing a Muslim Ansari MLA", "many a Hindu girl has dreamed of a Varanasi silk sari for her wedding day. Even as they value the saris, Hindus look down on the Ansari" is just pure OR and unencyclopedic and carries a tone of communal disagreement. The section on Haj flights is also WP:UNDUE and is just common knowledge. Other changes such as removal of convert template and tweaking the distance, introduction broken image tag in Air section does not seem encyclopedic to me. The best thing to me right now seems to revert to the previous better version, cleanup some material. A section on Islam can be added after we convert it to something encyclopedic. --TheMandarin (talk) 04:56, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
I have re-introduced a bit of Ansaari's encyclopedic edits, mainly the section of Islam, which is certainly necessary. But the article as such needs cleanup and have tagged it. --TheMandarin (talk) 05:18, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
Legendary History
Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
This line in Legendary History: "It was at this very place where an unusual incident was observed, an indian crocodile seized a sleeping indian tiger on the bank of the river and dragged it into the water.[15]" is out of context with the rest of the section, does not describe a particularly noteworthy event, and is grammatically incorrect. Furthermore, the source that it cites, "Conspiracy at Meerut," does not contain the world "crocodile," according to a books.google.com search of it. As such, I am deleting it. 76.119.208.81 (talk) 15:15, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
Benares
Latest comment: 12 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
I read the Etymology section with great interest; thanks to all who contributed to it. However, it would be even better if it mentioned at some point the origin of its English name, "Benares". Rwflammang (talk) 16:16, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
I do not have sources, but "Banaras" is the traditional Hindi name and "Varanasi" is the modern English name. If I found sources then I would change this. What is there is not incorrect, but it is not the whole story. Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:06, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
File:Kashi.jpg Nominated for Deletion
Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
An image used in this article, File:Kashi.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Media without a source as of 9 February 2012
What should I do?
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use)
If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used.
Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
An image used in this article, File:Benares.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion at Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Copyright violations
What should I do?
Don't panic; deletions can take a little longer at Commons than they do on Wikipedia. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion (although please review Commons guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use)
If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used.
Latest comment: 11 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Standing high over the Hindu temples and shrines, <--
This verse appeared to be insulting the hindu people, I have removed it --Applez25 (talk) 12:31, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
Wrong info
Latest comment: 11 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Varanasi does not qualify as a metropolitan city.The government of India has recognized only 11 cities as metropolitan cities(See definition used).So it is corrected as "Pilgrim City". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aks bhatt (talk • contribs) 16:32, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Where is the "definition used"? Where is this list of 11 cities, and where is the definition for "pilgrim city"? Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:06, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
Note re: non-copyvio
Latest comment: 11 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
In attempting to source the article, I found the sentence "Fog is common in the winters, while hot dry winds, called loo, blow in the summers." appeared elsewhere online. It was added to the Wikipedia article in 2006 [1]. The earliest I found it outside Wikipedia was 2007.[2] So it appears that that journal article copied the text from Wikipedia, and not vice versa. Calliopejen1 (talk) 00:20, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
Latest comment: 11 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion
I am removing Sarnath (Varanasi district) from the article as it is near Varanasi (the city), but not in it. --RedtigerxyzTalk 04:24, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
I looked at what you did and I approve of what you did in this instance, but this article ought to reference Sarnath otherwise. Officially Sarnath is distinct but Sarnath is not distinct politically, historically, economically, culturally, or geographically. It is an area which borders Varanasi and is a significant part of Varanasi in many ways. That area needs some mention in this article. Blue Rasberry (talk) 05:06, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
Sarnath is clearly relevant here. Varanasi is venerated by Buddhists today because of it. Who is responsible for the bare URLS?♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 11:45, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
Buddhists do not venerate Varanasi, they venerate Saranath. --RedtigerxyzTalk 05:20, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
The page is mostly for Hindus, but the map of India is meant for anti-Hindu consumption, showing J&K in a different colour, closer to that of Pakistan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.33.85.243 (talk • contribs) 22:20, 3 March 2015
It is not intentional. Anyone with a better map can fix the problem. People around the world will continue to use these maps as they are until someone fixes the problem. Indian people continually are complaining in so many articles. Not enough people here work with maps and volunteers do not know what to do. Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:33, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
GA Review
Latest comment: 8 years ago40 comments6 people in discussion
Dr. Blofeld and Nvvchar, I will complete a thorough and comprehensive review of this article within the next 48 hours. Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns in the meantime. Thanks! -- West Virginian (talk) 22:27, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
Dr. Blofeld and Nvvchar, as promised, I've completed my thorough and comprehensive review and re-review of this article and I assess that it almost meets the criteria outlined for Good Article status. I do, however, have some comments and suggestions that should be addressed prior to its final passage to Good Article status. Congratulations on yet another job well done! Note: I am copying over my comments from an offline document in phases. -- West Virginian (talk) 22:43, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section, the lede of this article adequately defines Varanasi, establishes Varanasi's necessary context, and explains why Varanasi is otherwise notable.
The info box for Varanasi is beautifully formatted and its content is sourced within the prose of the text and by the references cited therein.
The collage image is licensed CC BY-SA 3.0 and is therefore suitable for inclusion in this info box.
The Uttar Pradesh locator map is licensed CC BY-SA 3.0 de and is also good to go for this article.
It wouldn't hurt to wiki-link Delhi in its first mention in the lede.
Done
I would also specify "Hindu intellectuals and theologians" in the second paragraph of the lede.
Done
Also in the second paragraph, I would render the end of the sentence as "...2014 by a huge margin."
Done
De-link North India in the third paragraph, as it was linked above in the first paragraph.
Done
The lede is otherwise well-written, consists of content that is adequately sourced and verifiable, and I have no further comments or questions for this section.
Etymology
In the second sentence of this section, consider rewriting as: "The old lies on the north shores..." or "The old city is located on the north shores..."
Done
What language are the English equivalents being translated from? You could state as such: "...by many names in Hindi" or in Sanskrit" or specify them individually if each name derives from a separate language.
Done
Should "the luminous city as an eminent seat of learning" be in quotation marks since it is mention as such in the Rigveda?
Yes, done
This section is otherwise well-written, consists of content that is adequately sourced and verifiable, and I have no further comments or questions for this section.
History
Because the History section is so gargantuan, I would recommend splitting it up into subsections. It may also be necessary to reorganize the images in this section, since four are crowded on the right side and one is on the left at the end of the section. I would remove one and place two on the right side and two on the left side for better flow.
Yes, done
Shiva should be wiki-linked in its first mention in the prose section. God can probably be lower case here. I would also capitalize war in Kurukshetra War.
Done
I would also recommend an and between Avantikā and Dwārāvatī in the list of sacred cities.
Done
"Archaeological evidence of the earliest" rather than "Archaeological evidence of earliest."
Done
Rather than Ganga, I would suggest consistently using Ganges throughout the article.
Done
In the second paragraph, I would rewrite as such: "...suggesting Varanasi was also inhabited by this time."
Done
Xuanzang only needs to be wiki-linked once in the prose. I would also use "also known as Hiuen Tsiang" after the first mention of Xuanzang.
Done after the first mention and second link deleted
I would also reword the following sentence as such: "In 1194, the city succumbed to Muslim rule under the Turkic king Qutb-ud-din Aibak, who ordered the destruction of approximately 1,000 temples in the city." Turkic may work better here than Turkish, and it wouldn't hurt to work in a mention of and wiki-link to Mamluk Dynasty (Delhi) in this or the succeeding sentence.
Done
I notice that the Oxford comma is used when describing Ravidas, which I prefer. I would recommend using the Oxford comma for consistency's sake throughout the article, so I would suggest scanning the article for instances where it is not being used.
yes , done ,
The image of Kabir has been released into the Public Domain and is therefore acceptable for use here. I would remove the period from the caption as it is not necessary. You could also probably just render him as Kabir in the caption.
Done
The image of the Brahmin with the garland is also released into the public domain and is suitable for use here. For the caption, I recommend rewriting as such: "A lithograph by James Prinsep (1832) of a Brahmin placing a garland on the holiest location in the city."
Done
The image of Varanasi in 1883 has also been released into the public domain. For consistency's sake, I would render the caption like so: "A painting by Edwin Lord Weeks (1883) of Varanasi, viewed from the Ganges."
Done
I would suggest specifying that Varanasi experienced a Hindu cultural revival in the 16th century.
The following sentence should be separated into two: "The road infrastructure was also improved during this period and extended from Kolkata to Peshawar by Emperor Sher Shah Suri; later during the British Raj it came to be known as the famous Grand Trunk Road."
Done
Emperor before Aurangzeb should be capitalized so that it is consistent with Emperor Sher Shah Suri and Raja of Poona.
Done
Would it be incorrect to reword the last sentence in the fifth paragraph as "The kings governing Varanasi continued wield power and importance through much of the British Raj period, including the Maharaja of Benares, or Kashi Naresh." This sentence also needs an inline citation.
Done. Will provide a citation soon
"kingdom of Benares" should be rendered as "Kingdom of Benares" with a capital K in kingdom.
Done
Mark Twin was a renowned author but he is not renowned as an Indophile. I would reword that sentence as "In 1897, author Mark Twin..."
Done
Ramnagar should be wiki-linked, and it is not so much a headquarters of the state, as it is its capital.
Done
Reword this sentence like so: "In 1857, the British Army committed a massacre of Indian troops and city residence during the early stages of the Indian Rebellion of 1857."
Done
Reword this sentence to something like: 'Besant founded the Central Hindu College because she "wanted to bring men of all religions together under the ideal of brotherhood in order to promote Indian cultural values and to remove ill-will among different sections of the Indian population."'
Done.
Is it notable for the city's history that Dr. Vibhuti Narayan Singh died on Christmas Day in 2000? What is the current king's title? Is he King of Varanasi? Also, did nothing of significance happen in Varanasi between the 19th century and the present besides the ceding of Varanasi to the Union of India?
Removed mention of Christmas as it is not relevant. Presetn king is also called Maharaja. No change has occurred which is of historical importance, except that it invited maximum attention as the Prime Ministerial candidate contested the election from Varanasi constituency and won a large margin votes and became Prime Minister of India in 2014. But this has been mentioned in the Demographic section.
Bathing Ghat Banaras India 1890.jpg is properly licensed, so it can be used here, but its caption should read something like: "An illustration (1890) of Bathing Ghat in Varanasi."
Done
The image of the Benares riverfront has been released into the public domain and it is therefore acceptable to be used in this article. The caption, to be consistent with the others, should read something like, "An 1895 photograph go the Varanasi riverfront."
Done
This section is otherwise well-written, consists of content that is adequately sourced and verifiable, and I have no further comments or questions for this section.
Geography and climate
The first two paragraphs should be in a subsection named "Geography" since there is a "Climate" subsection below.
Done
The image of the city's location in India is licensed CC BY-SA 3.0 and is acceptable for use here in this article.
I suggest using center/centre rather than middle of the Ganges valley.
Done
I would reword the sentence as such: "The city is the headquarters of Varanasi district."
Done
The listing of neighborhoods should be alphabetical.
Done
Suggest rewording as such: "Varanasi is located between the Ganges confluences with two rivers: the Varuna and the Assi stream."
Done
The last sentence of the second paragraph of this section should be rewritten to make it less confusing. Perhaps render as something like this: "The distance between the two confluences is around 4 kilometres (2.5 mi), and serves as a sacred journeying route for Hindus, which culminates with a visit to a Sakshi Vinayak Temple."
Done
The Climate subsection's table is beautifully formatted and consists of data that is sourced and verifiable.
This section is otherwise well-written, consists of content that is adequately sourced and verifiable, and I have no further comments or questions for this section.
Administration
In the last sentence of the first paragraph, I would re-write "in 2014 by huge margin" as "in 2014 by a huge margin."
Done
I would render B.C. as BC to remain consistent. I would also suggest stating that the Ayurvedic College was established rather than started.
Wiki-link Panchakarma
I would rewrite the last sentence of the first Healthcare paragraph as "S S Ayurveda Hospital operates a Panchakarma treatment centre, in association with Kerala Ayurveda Ltd."
Done
I would alphabetize the hospitals. If the Cancer Institute is not a proper title, I would add an additional sentence saying "A separate cancer institute is also operated in Varanasi."
Done
Regarding Varanasi Hospital, I would make a separate sentence stating that the hospital is primarily relied upon by patients in the surrounding districts and states for it surgical services.
Done
X-ray, ultrasonography, echocardiography and a pathology do not need to be capitalized.
Corrected
Following this review, I would suggest nominating this article for a copyedit with the Wikipedia:GOCE.
Noted
In the first sentence of the "Public maintenance" subsection, I would rewrite it as such: "Due to the high population density of Varanasi and the increasing number of tourists, the Uttar Pradesh government and international non-governmental organizations and institutions have expressed grave concern for the pollution and pressures on infrastructure in the city, mainly the sewage, sanitation, and drainage components."
Done
Is "Rs." the standard abbreviation for rupees on Wikipedia?
Does Nagar Nigam here refer to Varanasi Nagar Nigam? If so, this should be specified.
Yes, changed
I recommend using sewage over sewerage.
Done
Litres and tones should use the convert template.
Done
This section is otherwise well-written, consists of content that is adequately sourced and verifiable, and I have no further comments or questions for this section.
Demographics
The table should have an inline citation somewhere internally. The table's contents also needs to be written in prose form within this section, and internally cited.
Will add in prose form after providing citation in the table. As this table was introduced some other user, if the citation is not locatable, then would like to delete this table.
Varanasi Nagar Nigam should be wiki-linked in the previous section, and when it is, this should be de-linked in this section.
Done
The "m" after the population total needs to be removed.
Done
2001 Census of India needs to be wiki-linked for the content in the second paragraph.
Done
This section is otherwise well-written, consists of content that is adequately sourced and verifiable, and I have no further comments or questions for this section.
Economy
The image of the Banarasi sari has been released into the public domain and is therefore suitable for use here.
The first sentence should be reworded as such: "According to the 2006 City Development Plan for Varanasi, approximately 29% of Varanasi's population is employed."
Done
The second sentence should be rendered something like: "Approximately 40% are employed in manufacturing..."
Done
I would suggest finding a synonym for "dominant" as it is used twice within the first two sentences of the third paragraph.
Done
Rewrite as "...with nearly half a million of them working as weavers, dyers, sari finishers, and salespersons."
Done
Competition from Chinese silk traders or imports?
Changed to imports
Wiki-link Dhurrie, Betel, and Langra.
Done
Religious reasons or religious purposes?
Done
Alphabetize the list of banks.
Done
This section is otherwise well-written, consists of content that is adequately sourced and verifiable, and I have no further comments or questions for this section.
@Dr. Blofeld: and @Nvvchar: I will refrain from copying over more of my comments and suggestions to allow you to address my remarks up until this point. Please let me know if you have any questions or comments for me in the meantime. -- West Virginian (talk) 23:30, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
Cheers for the review West Virginian!♦ Dr. Blofeld 05:05, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
Dr. Blofeld, you are quite welcome! This is a stellar article, and I am thankful to have this opportunity. -- West Virginian (talk) 22:13, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
Excellent review @West Virginian:. I have complied with all the review comments, except for two citation issues. Replies are given under each of the review observations needing action. Please see Thanks.--Nvvchar. 11:33, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
Nvvchar, as always, it's a sincere privilege to review one of yours and Dr. Blofeld's articles. Upon my re-review of the article up to this point, I find that you've addressed all my concerns, and I will standby for those two inline citations. I'll continue my review this evening. Once again, thank you for making these edits in such a timely and most satisfactory manner! -- West Virginian (talk) 22:13, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
Notable landmarks
The image of Ramnagar Fort is licensed CC BY-SA 2.0 and is therefore suitable for use here.
I took the liberty of making a few housekeeping edits to the opening paragraph by alphabetizing the landmarks and wiki-linking the landmarks to their respective articles.
Thanks
I also rephrased and copyedited the Jantar Mantar subsection, so please let me know if this works as rewritten.
Changes are fine
In addition, I did some rephrasing of sentences in the Ramnagar Fort subsection, and wiki-linked some items to related articles. Is the Saraswati Bhawan a section of the fort? If so, what is it? A brief description of the Saraswati Bhawan should be given in this sentence.
Yes, it is part of the fort. Added a description of the Bhavan
The image of the Ghats in Varanasi from the Ganges is licensed CC BY-SA 3.0 and is therefore suitable for inclusion here.
The image of Dashashwamedh Ghat is licensed CC BY-SA 2.0 and is also suitable for use here. I would suggest enlarging this image and possibly placing another image below it of another ghat in Varanasi. There is room for at least one more in this section, and that would be fitting since there are many ghats to choose from in Varanasi. I wiki-linked Dashashwamedh Ghat in the caption of the image.
Yes, added an img
Should this sentence be rewritten as: "The ghats are an integral complement to the Hindu concept of divinity represented in physical, metaphysical, and supernatural elements." It wouldn't hurt to wiki-link metaphysical to Metaphysics, but this is merely a suggestion.
Done
I also consistently rendered Ganges as "the Ganges" throughout this section and the entire article, and changed mentions of "River Ganges" and "Ganges river." I also ensured that ghats such as Dashashwamedh Ghat was only linked once in the lede, and once in the prose, excluding captions.
Thanks for all the edits
"Many ghats are associated with legends..." What sorts of legends? Hindu religious legends? Folklore? If possible, this statement should be more specific.
Yes, many ghats are associated with Hindu legends.
"Marathas, Shindes (Scindias), Holkars, Bhonsles, and Peshwas stand out as patrons of present-day Varanasi." Should this be reworded as something like: "Many ghats were constructed under the patronage of the Marathas, Shindes (Scindias), Holkars, Bhonsles, and Peshwas."
Yes, done
A language for the "Agni Pooja" translation is needed.
Sanskrit language is mentioned now.
It should be noted somewhere in this paragraph regarding the spiritual nature of the ghats that they are spiritually significant to Hinduism specifically.
Yes, done
In the final paragraph, "It is said that an..." Who says this? According to who?
It is a myth and accordingly corrected the sentence.
The image of the Kashi Vishwanath Temple is released into the public domain and is therefore suitable for use here.
The image of the Durga template is licensed CC BY-SA 2.0 and is also acceptable for use here.
In the first sentence of the first Temples subsection paragraph, "the most worshiped are" may not work well here. I would suggest rewording this phrase as "the temples most popular for worship" or "the most attended temples for worship are" or something to this effect.
Suggested change incorporated
I suggest stating that the Durga Temple is known for the monkeys that reside in the trees nearby, rather than a "band of monkeys."
Yes done
Dr. Blofeld and Nvvchar, I am going to have to stop here for now this evening, but this should be enough for you to work with until I can continue this review later today or tomorrow. Thank you for your patience with me throughout this review process. -- West Virginian (talk) 23:22, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
@West Virginian: I have completed compliance up to this section. Please see
DoneDr. Blofeld and Nvvchar, I certify that my comments up until this point have been addressed and satisfied. Great job! -- West Virginian (talk) 20:17, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
I copyedited the temples subsection. Let me know if you disagree with any of my edits to this subsection.
It is fine, thanks
"It is believed the temple was built on the very spot where the medieval Hindu saint Tulsidas had a vision of Hanuman." It is believed by who? Should this be, "According to Hindu legend, xxx"?
Yes, done
Do we know how many injuries resulted from the terrorist attack against the Hanuman temple?
Yes, given now. 30 injured. Unofficial figures put the death toll at 23.
I suggest giving a date of construction of Durga Mandir, rather than an estimated number of years it is thought to have existed.
Yes, 16th century (exact date is not known), Kund in the 18th century
"Thousands of Hindu devotees visit Durga Kund during Navratri to worship the goddess Durga." Are there harder numbers of devotees to include here?
I have changed it to “a large number of Hindu devotees…”
"("Kund" meaning a pond or pool)" The specific language of "kund" should be mentioned here.
Yes, it is Sanskrit
The last listing of temples should be alphabetized.
Done
This subsection is otherwise well-written, consists of content that is adequately sourced and verifiable, and I have no further comments or questions for this section.
The mosque subsection may require some expansions, as it goes into far less detail about the notable mosques than is spent on some of the city's Hindu temples. This section seems to focus more on the plunder of the Hindu temples and use of their materials, rather than discussing their architectural design or why they are historically relevant or notable. I would add a few more sentences with that in mind.
Yes, added
I also engaged in a minor copyedit of the Shri Guru Ravidass Janam Asthan subsection.
It is fine, thanks
The remainder of the landmarks section is otherwise well-written, consists of content that is adequately sourced and verifiable, and I have no further comments or questions for this section.
Culture
I suggest alphabetizing the list of writers in the first paragraph of the Culture section.
"Varanasi is the hub of arts and crafts" or should it be "Varanasi is a center of art and design"
Done
Is "Arts and Crafts" a formal name? If so, there should be a brief description of what it is? Is it an event? A market?
Arts and Crafts” is a term widely used to connote all forms of arts and its crafting. It has been divided into separate sections now
The paragraph regarding "Music in Varanasi" also seems un-encyclopedic and may need to be written to meet Wikipedia encyclopedic standards.
Done
What is a "Saint musician?"
During the Bhakthi movement saints who popularized religious teachings through music
The image of wall paintings is licensed CC BY-SA 3.0 and is suitable for use here.
The image of Saint Goswami Tulsidas Awadhi has been released into the public domain and is also acceptable for use here.
"Girija Devi, the native famous classical singer of thumris, was instrumental in elevating music to a status of respectability and appreciation." How did Girija Devi elevate music to a status of respectability and appreciation? Was music not respected or appreciated before him? This may need to be made more clear.
Changed to “ Girija Devi, the native famous classical singer of thumris, during her times was widely appreciated and respected for her musical renderings”. Hope it is OK.
"Apart from the vocal music singers" Are there singers who are not vocal? Perhaps we can say, "Apart from vocal artists..."
Done.
Dr. Blofeld and Nvvchar, the "Notable landmarks" and "Culture" sections are going to need a thorough copyedit for greater flow and readability. I'm going to refrain from further review until we can clean up these two sections a bit. The Culture section needs a complete overhaul with subsections for "Literature" "Arts and design" and "Music." Thank you for your patience with me throughout this review process. -- West Virginian (talk) 22:53, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
West VirginianDr. Blofeld I have addressed the above issues and also provided replies. Under the Mosque section, I have now added details of two mosques, Gyanvapi Mosque and Alamagir Msoque, Varanasi; also created the later article. In the graph in the Demographics section the figures given can not be referenced as I could not find any suitable reference. Also, the Census 2011 of India has not given any figures, religion wise. I therefore propose to delete this graph unless some other user can find an acceptable reference. I am having problems editing from home in the last few days as my internet works intermittently. I will work in the office today and address all other further comments given below. --Nvvchar. 01:03, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
DoneNvvchar and Dr. Blofeld, all issues with this article have been addressed up to this point. We should go ahead and remove the religious demographics table if a reliable and verifiable source cannot be located. Nvvchar, thank you for all your hard work and research to further improve upon this article! -- West Virginian (talk) 04:02, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
Education
Alphabetize the list of colleges. This listing and the statement about engineering schools being established outside the city will need to be cited.
There is no single reference which will give all the listed institutions. As the universities and colleges are specific linked articles in WP, is it necessary to fix reference to each one of them. So is the case with engineering college in the outskirts of the city.
This section is otherwise well-written, consists of content that is adequately sourced and verifiable, and I have no further comments or questions for this section.
Sport
Banaras Hindu University could probably be abbreviated as BHU several times in the Sport section.
This section is otherwise well-written, consists of content that is adequately sourced and verifiable, and I have no further comments or questions for this section.
This section is otherwise well-written, consists of content that is adequately sourced and verifiable, and I have no further comments or questions for this section.
Addendum
You may want to consider making a new section entitled "Infrastructure" with two subsections "Transportation" and "Parks and recreation." Most GAs for cities of Varanasi's importance and stature have sections dedicated to parks. Another alternative would be to make a "Sports and recreation" section and then have subsections for "Sports" and "Parks and recreation." Either way, there should be a few sentences about the city's parks. Kachhua Sanctuary and Chandra Prabha Wildlife Sanctuary were two parks that can be mentioned here.
Both the parks are in the Varanasi district and not within the city limits. Do you want us to include them in the article?
Alright, Dr. Blofeld and Nvvchar, I have completed my review of this article. You gentlemen have outdone yourselves, but there is still a lot of work to do, since this is a major city of great cultural and religious significance. Thank you again for the opportunity to review another of your phenomenal articles! Nvvchar, a special thanks to you for your timely responses! Your edits have been outstanding. -- West Virginian (talk) 14:58, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
Excellent review West Virginian, yes, the culture to religious sections was the part i thought that needed the most work, I and hopefully Ipigott and a few others can help get it into shape so it can pass.♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:09, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
Dr. Blofeld, thank you for your kind words! I will place this review on hold while these sections are being improved. In the meantime, I will also continue to tweak the article's overall flow. -- West Virginian (talk) 15:15, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
West VirginianPlease see my further compliance. I am removing the graph. Let me know about the parks in view of my reply.--Nvvchar. 09:36, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
I do not know enough about the issue to be sure, but I think that Varanasi's reputation as plot point in some very popular movies is worth mentioning here.
Modi government
One of the Modi's government's most famous promises has been Ganges preservation, which is part of the reason why he ran as an MP in Varanasi. Perhaps the article should say something more about the current Modi government, even though the city has a long history and Modi is a new development. This is the first time that all of India has been led by a person from Varanasi, even if Modi is Gujarati and hardly is in Varanasi at all. When he talks about Ganges cleanup, so far as I know, he mostly means that he wants the water especially in and around Varansi to be clean. Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:29, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
Bluerasberry, when you're able to find the necessary sources, please feel free to add this content to the article. -- West Virginian (talk) 21:03, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
@Bluerasberry: Modi's choice to run in Varanasi was a political campaign strategy given its religious heritage, he also ran in and won the seat in Vadodora, Gujarat. I presume you're not well-versed in Indian politics but plenty of politicians over the years across the political spectrum have promised to clean up the Ganges. Modi's promise is nothing new. If his government managed to do it maybe but not right now.Cowlibob (talk) 22:28, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
Economy section
The economy section says that tourism is the second most important industry but does not say what the most important industry is. Also if anyone can find any rupee numbers to apply to any industry, like "this industry brings in this amount of money", then that would be useful. There are several large schools in Benares and one really big one, BHU. I expect that education must be a significant part of the economy and local employer, because of the big schools and many small schools, and also because of the traditional learning centers like old libraries, Sanskrit schools, and temples as schools. Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:29, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
I don't want to follow the Indian/Pakistani cliche of listing lots of schools. Name a major Indian city which isn't a notable filming location. I don't want to add lots of cruft on films. The article BTW says silk weaving is the main industry.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:13, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
I agree that too many articles on Indian cities put too much importance on schools. I do not know enough about Bollywood but probably every city has been featured.
I am doubtful that silk production is the major industry, even though I do not have a source. I confirm that the silk industry employs many people, but so far as I know, practically everyone in that industry sector is in poverty. It would not surprise me if more money actually came into the city because of the Diesel Locomotives, tourism, the schools, or some other sector like basic manufacturing, software, or outsourcing services. As I understand, if there is a village where a few people are employed in weaving and everyone else is unemployed, then the entire village are counted as weavers in research. I know that if the data is poor then the Wikipedia article cannot be better, but I still wish that some numbers were available about how much money each sector brings in. Blue Rasberry (talk) 18:40, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
The article does not claim silk weaving to be the biggest source of income. It implies that it employs a great number of people, regardless if they're in poverty or not.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:30, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
Bluerasberry, first and foremost, I would like to thank you for your input and suggestions regarding this review. The current source states that silk production is the major industry in Varanasi. If you have another specific source that says otherwise, we can reword as necessary, but until then, we will maintain the article in its current form. Dr. Blofeld is right about India's film industry. Many major cities throughout India, and especially Varanasi, are film venues. I wouldn't be opposed to having a sentence or two in the prose about this, but nothing more. If you have a specific source, you are welcome to add this. -- West Virginian (talk) 20:07, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
It is best to do as you say. I looked for some other sources about the economy of Varanasi and I can find nothing published. The sources provided are the best sources which I have been able to identify. Beyond doing online search, I have also reviewed some books on Varanasi and found no better information. Blue Rasberry (talk) 20:24, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
Bluerasberry, when you're able to locate these sources, we will amend the article as necessary. Thank you for your suggestion. -- West Virginian (talk) 21:03, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
Final comments
@Dr. Blofeld:, @Nvvchar:, @Rosiestep:, and @Ipigott:, the article is almost ready for passage to Good Article status. Once the points above have each been properly addressed and the inline citations promised above have been added, I will engage in a final review, and will pass this article to Good Article status pending any further necessary edits and tweaks. I look forward to seeing your additions! -- West Virginian (talk) 20:11, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
Hello - this review just started on 30 July. I solicited for other comments. Can we wait at a minimum 10 days for other comments, and then allow time for discussion if there are any more? It seems a bit premature to plan a close now. I like the article but let's get all the comments we can. Blue Rasberry (talk) 20:26, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
Bluerasberry, with all due respect here, I selected to engage in a review of this article for Good Article status. (I have engaged in 141 successful Good Article reviews before this one). You are more than welcome and strongly encouraged to share your comments and suggestions here, and to contribute to this process in a meaningful way; however, this review will be completed once I, as the volunteering article reviewer, find that the nominators have properly addressed and met all the major items outlined at Wikipedia:Good article criteria. According to Wikipedia:Good article nominations/Instructions, I am welcome to ask for a second opinion, but it is not necessary or mandatory. -- West Virginian (talk) 20:39, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
Bluerasberry, that will not be necessary. This review process will not be closed until all interested parties are satisfied with the outcome. The nominators of this article have worked diligently to improve this article to meet the criteria outlined for Good Article status, and I do not want to see them deprived of their goal if they've met the necessary criteria. -- West Virginian (talk) 21:01, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
@Bluerasberry: Please do not open a GAR. There is no limit for GA reviews to be left open especially as they are non-contentious issues that you highlight. Your comments have been replied to by both the nominator and the reviewer. GAR is designed for situations where there was a question about how the review was conducted or there was a clear failure not to meet GA criteria which hasn't been presented thus far. It is not for minor content disputes or to suit personal preferences (which I really hope is not the case), please use the talkpage for these after the review. Cowlibob (talk) 22:28, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
I don't see what this review has to do with you Bluerasberry. Please vacate and leave the review alone. CassiantoTalk 08:10, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
@West Virginian: I've given it a copyedit. I think the religion section is best put in a main article, we have info on a lot of the temples and that anyway.♦ Dr. Blofeld 08:44, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
Done@Dr. Blofeld: and @Nvvchar: I've re-reviewed the article (again) and I find that all the comments, questions, and concerns raised above have been sufficiently answered, addressed, and incorporated within the article's prose. As for the parks suggestion, the two parks I mentioned were merely examples of what to include, but I feel that the article is already quite comprehensive in its current form without the mention of the city's parks. I also concur with the movement of the religious information to its own article, which I've reviewed and find that it works well. With all that said, I'd like to thank and commend you both for your diligence, your patience, your understanding, and your hard work throughout this long review process. With your additions and our combined copyedits, I find that this article now easily meets Good Article criteria. Congratulations on a job well done, and an achievement that is much deserved. -- West Virginian (talk) 14:06, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
West Virginian. It has been a very rewarding experience working with you on this your extremely thorough review. Thanks. Pl leave a message on my talk page on this article's approval to GA I hope you will review one more of my articles in the near future.--Nvvchar. 23:22, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
Nvvchar, likewise, it has also been a rewarding experience to work with you throughout this review process. I look forward to reviewing another of your articles very soon! Dhan'yavadagalu/Nanri! -- West Virginian (talk) 23:37, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
Wrong info on Ghats
Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Logged into Wikipedia after many years and saw this error on ghats on this page. Please note that the cremation happens only on two ghats Harishchandra ghat and Manikarnika ghat; and not at ANY other ghat. Fixed the sentence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Apandey (talk • contribs) 23:48, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
External links modified
Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
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Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
The following items listed in the Bibliography section currently appear not to be cited. My guess is that they were, the citations have been removed and the section has not been updated to reflect this. Perhaps someone more familiar with the history of this article can sort it out - there has been a lot of edit warring.
Not done those pictures are copyright violations from Google and will be deleted from Commons shortly. - Arjayay (talk) 10:08, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
Seven Holy Cities- Correction needed
Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
There is a clash betweeen Haridwar and Gaya.
In the article Varanasi, Gaya is included. Whereas in the article Sapta Puri, Haridwar is mentioned.
Please somebody fix this.--Drcenjary (talk) 01:39, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 31 January 2017
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This edit request to Varanasi has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
Official Service Website: www.varanasiweb.in 182.69.215.219 (talk) 08:42, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
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Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. JTP(talk • contribs) 20:00, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
Salarpur
On 23 December 2016, Salarpur Village of Varanasi Volunteered in the Mission of Digital India, as the newly elected Pradhan Ravi Maurya along with local Villager Anugu Yogeshwer Reddy Provided a Personal investment in making the Village Digital, and have a Digital Footprint. The Entire IT Setup was Handled by Anugu Yogeshwer Reddy (Entrepreneur). Salarpur Village has its own Website, A Mobile Application that is available at the Google Play with the name Salarpur. The Application allows the Villagers to interact with the Pradhan in Real Time and contribute in total development of the village. Making it First Village of India with a Digital Pradhan . Abhijeet00 (talk) 18:55, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 12 May 2017
Latest comment: 6 years ago4 comments4 people in discussion
This edit request to Varanasi has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 09:34, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
Not done for now: If you are suggesting this is added to the article somewhere, please give a more specific suggestion. Although I have closed this edit request, someone watching the page may still add the image. Thanks. Murph9000 (talk) 14:57, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
Would like to add more neighborhood cities like balua, kakarmatha, saraia, moghal sarai, chandrauti, baragaonUtkarshsingh11 (talk) 11:55, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
National Highway 2
Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
As I may not edit the main page, I put my remarks here: The first paragraph mentions that Varanasi is connected by National Highway 2. This is no longer true due to the new Indian Highway Numbering scheme. I guess it should be National Highway 19 (India) now. KapitanSpaltnagel (talk) 09:28, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
Cultural centre for SEVERAL thousand years?
Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
The lead paragraphs state Varanasi has been a cultural centre for several thousand years. "Several thousands" usually means around 4,000 or so. This is possible OR. Can someone find a citation that Varanasi was actually a cultural centre for several thousand years? There is some allusion that Varanasi (or Varanasi's predecessor?) may have been founded around 1800 BCE, but no citation actually stating that Varanasi was a cultural centre for thousands of years. Maybe it was just a village and not a cultural centre, for example.Willard84 (talk) 04:22, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
Two Durga Temples
Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
It's not clear what 2 Durga temples are being talked about. 'Durga Kund' is a pond beside the temple & other temples have different names. Why 'two'? Seomelono (talk) 06:44, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 8 September 2018
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182.71.102.130 (talk) 09:00, 8 September 2018 (UTC)Don of Varanasi is Satish kumar verma
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. NiciVampireHeart 09:12, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 12 December 2018
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Remove Awadhi from the list of languages. It is not spoken in Varanasi and no source shows as such. ChuckAlor (talk) 19:33, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Izno (talk) 18:38, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
GA Reassessment
Latest comment: 5 years ago7 comments3 people in discussion
This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Varanasi/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.
This article has a lot of verification problems and does not deserve the GA status. User:Ikhtiar H (talk) 16:05, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
Ikhtiar H: I think it would be useful if you could point to the problems you think need attention. Perhaps we could sort them out without a reassessment. Unfortunately the two main editors of the article are no longer active. cc (User:Rosiestep)--Ipigott (talk) 17:36, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
Ipigott Unfortunately, I cannot really be specific with the problems; I will try my best to point out the issues over the next few days. However, one clear-cut reasoning for this reassessment is the number of WP:CITENEED added ever since its GA review in August 2015. If I were to give an overview as a casual reader, I would say it looks engaging (especially the lead section). It is understandable that verifying information and adding sources is not that simple, but this article can stay GA if someone is willing to make the changes. I am now leaving this on hold for a couple of weeks, maybe even a month. Ikhtiar H (talk) 19:40, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
Ikhtiar H: You are quite right about the Citeneeds but I see that in all cases the additions were made after the GA review. I'll see if I can find sources justifying them, otherwise the text will just have to be deleted.--Ipigott (talk) 07:51, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
I've taken care of the citation problem and see that ORES now again rates the article as GA (5.19). I therefore see no further need for a reassessment. Thank you Doug Weller for bringing the problem to my attention.--Ipigott (talk) 08:45, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
It seems convincing to remain GA. Regardless, I still think the article requires engagement and I highly recommend a peer review. Nonetheless, thanks for your contributions Ipigott! Ikhtiar H (talk) 14:37, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 12 March 2019
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Allahabad should be replaced with official name Prayagraj Arpitsaraf369 (talk) 09:31, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Not done for now: Based on discussions at Talk:Allahabad, it appears that there is no consensus to make this change at this time, largely per WP:COMMONNAME, specifically WP:NAMECHANGES. I recommend continuing the discussion at that talk page to work toward consensus to make this change. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 13:29, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
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I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Varanasi's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 05:56, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 7 August 2021
Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Railways
Varanasi Junction, is the main railway station which serves Varanasi.
[[File:[[3]] Railway Station at night.jpg|thumb|Banaras railway station at night]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rahulj1986 (talk • contribs) 04:11, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 23 August 2021
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Under Administration and Politics Section, the Lok Sabha election date is showing as 2014 which needs to be updated to 2019
"Varanasi is represented in the Lok Sabha by the current Prime Minister of India Narendra Modi who won the Lok Sabha elections in 2014 by a huge margin." Sbp290 (talk) 19:55, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
It is correct, he has been representing the Varanasi constituency since his win in 2014 general election (he was re-elected in 2019 general election). -ink&fables«talk» 20:12, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
Area is wrong
Latest comment: 2 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
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Varansi Area is 1535sq. Km but in wiki it is written 82sq km — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adg1822 (talk • contribs) 05:35, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. --Ferien (talk) 06:25, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
Importance of the varanasi and mathura in modern india
Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Latest comment: 2 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion
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Regional Language is KASHIKA. It is very similar to Awadhi . Eastern U.P. has own regional language.Bhojpuri is not an any language. Drjps33 (talk) 11:52, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 07:36, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
Varanasi in 2022
Latest comment: 2 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
the images used in this Varanasi inbox are very old and many of them don't represent current scenario. Not all.
The ghats are transformed now I had updated the images for the article to be updated as of 2022. but it is reverted. I think the images I used for the inbox of this article represent the old as well as present day scene of the city well. Here in the images some of the pictures don't represent the city. So I think updated images should be used in infobox. I am changing the current images again back to the new updated images that represent both history, tradition and also current day scenario of the city. If anyone feels different please text here in this talk page. DaDeadzombie (talk) 05:05, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
Of course, you cannot. There's a set that been in place for quite some time. What does it mean for the picture of an old ghat to be updated, when it is a WP:FP, and it has not too many people? And the new Vishwanath temple, built by tearing down a hundred surrounding temples, what value is that? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:13, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
I apologize. It is the BHU Vishwanath. That's fine. Let's make a deal. Trade Bismillah for the BHU Vishwanath (as you have already done) and swap the Munshi for the Featured Picture. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:22, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
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^Kumar, Nita (2017) [1988], The Artisans of Banaras: Popular Culture and Identity, 1880–1986, Princeton Legacy Library, Princeton University Press, p. 18, ISBN9781400886999, Contrary to the experience of most artisan production in modern times, the silk weaving industry has actually flourished and remained the commercial backbone of the Hindu pilgrimage and religious centre of Banaras
^San Chirico, Kerry P. C. (2012), "Banaras", in Juergensmeyer, Mark; Roof, Wade Clark (eds.), Encyclopedia of Global Religion, Volume 1, pp. 114–116, ISBN9780761927297, This was the period in which an enduring cultural imprint was made in ... the establishment of muhallas or neighborhoods that exist to this day, in the presence of Sufi shrines dotting the landscape, and in the creation of a singular syncretic culture ... Today Islam accounts for more than one-third of Varanasi city's population. There are as many Muslims here as there are Brahmans, the majority of whom are weavers. The relationship between the Muslims who weave Banaras's famous saris and the Hindus who sell them explains in part by historically there has been less communal tension here than in other cities throughout South Asia.
Thanks for explaining -- I didn't realise it was a duplicate. Sorry! Dāsānudāsa (talk) 09:18, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
Thank you @Toddy1: and @Dāsānudāsa:. I did so because this is was the sentence's original position in the lead. Someone moved it back by a few sentences. Then someone else moved it farther back. Both had edit summaries that sounded like routine housekeeping. I was attempting to move the sentence back but we were hiking, I was using my cell phone, and the connection was intermittent, not to mention the print was tiny. :) I made the errors described above. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:42, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
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Latest comment: 1 year ago43 comments4 people in discussion
I removed the clutter in the first sentence, and was immediately reverted by Fowler&fowler with the edit summary of Please take to the talk page per WP:BRD and WP:ONUS It is common in South Asia related pages for the lead to be written as a template of WP:DUE so the article may be revised. I will note that WP:ONUS states "The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content" (which is not me), and that I do not really understand what "It is common in South Asia related pages for the lead to be written as a template of WP:DUE so the article may be revised" means, so a dumbed-down explanation would be appreciated.
The relevant guideline for the formatting of the first sentence of an article is MOS:FIRST. I quote The first sentence should tell the nonspecialist reader what or who the subject is, and often when or where. It should be in plain English. Try to not overload the first sentence by describing everything notable about the subject. Instead use the first sentence to introduce the topic, and then spread the relevant information out over the entire lead.
As it stands, the first sentence reads Varanasi is a city on the Ganges river in northern India that has a central place in pilgrimage, death, and mourning in the Hindu world, even as the traditions are transformed in the face of modernization, generational changes and emigration.. I do not believe that this satisfies the above guidelines: specifically the part about overloading the first sentence by describing everything notable about the subject. In case this needs to be said, having worked on India-related articles before, I emphatically reject any notion that South Asian-specific articles are entitled, by virtue of their subject, to ignore Wikipedia policies. Responses would be appreciated. Thank you. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:11, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
ONUS is not timeless; otherwise, we could revert each WP article to 2004. Some version of the sentence has been in place for nearly a year.
Incidentally, I should note that the sentences in question were added by the same editor on 16 December 2021 with the edit summary citing for varanasi and banaras and writing two distilled lead sentences that sums up the city (with scholarly sources), should that be relevant. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:53, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
Happy to shorten it to "Varanasi is a city on the Ganges river in northern India that has a central place in pilgrimage, death, and mourning in the Hindu world." Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:57, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
Thank you for your list of India-related articles, although I must admit I do not see their relevance, nor that of the lead of India (unless you are suggesting that one should only edit an India-related article if one is also editing every other India-related article too). I would suggest addressing the city's name and location first, and placing the additional sentence "Varanasi is considered a holy city of Hinduism, with special importance attached to its traditions of pilgrimage, death, and mourning" (or similar) at the end of the paragraph. Thoughts? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:12, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
See the FA Boston Boston (US: /ˈbɔːstən/), officially the City of Boston, is the state capital and most populous city of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, as well as the cultural and financial center of the New England region of the United States.
Happy to change it to: Varanasi is a city on the Ganges river in the state of Uttar Pradesh in northern India that has a central place in pilgrimage, death, and mourning in the Hindu world." Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:19, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
I agree that we should lose the editorial gloss about changing traditions in the modern world. The "central place" passage appears to be trying to pack a lot in, maybe too much for succinct phrasing - Varanasi may be a centre of pilgrimage and for funeral rites, but does it really have a central place in death? It might be easier to find suitable phrasing, and a suitable point in the lead for it, by following WP:LEAD and ensuring that the lead is a summary of the body of the article. Rather to my surprise, the body of the article doesn't directly discuss or establish Varanasi's religious importance, let alone centrality. NebY (talk) 13:45, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
That is very true. The article seems to follow the regrettable tradition of just including a list of landmarks, rather than outlining their collective importance. Not great for a GA. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:48, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
It very much is central to the notion of death in Hinduism. It is a place to die, not just be cremated, the best such place. Very sick and aged people travel there to spend their last days, a traditional India-wide hospice. I visited India a number of years ago to examine the river water quality, and asked the boatmen if I could jump in mid-stream, the river being quarter mile wide there. They seemed very reluctant but eventually gave in. After I came back up into the boat, they were all smiling, relieved. One of them said, "The reason for our hesitancy was that it is illegal, and it is illegal because some people attempt to do this in order to drown."
In fact, for those who do not die there, rituals are performed by relatives which mimic a spiritual drowning, in that symbols of their body made of rice and other ingredients are immersed in the Ganges water in Varanasi.
As for the LEAD please see the note about the exceptions in many South Asia related articles. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:37, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
"Central to the notion of death" isn't "central to death". If the body of the article directly discussed Varanasi's religious significance, with appropriate sourcing, it would not only be easier to summarise, it would also make a better article. As it is, we've got an unsourced statement in the lead and it needs more than your personal experience to phrase it well and back it up. NebY (talk) 15:08, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
Please don't waste my time with nonsense. Have you looked at the sources that are cited? You obviously not. The personal experience bit was just a vignette to aid your understanding. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:15, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
Parry, Jonathan P. (2000) [1994], Death in Banaras, Lewis Henry Morgan Lectures, Cambridge University Press, p. 1, ISBN 9780521466257, As a place to die, to dispose of the physical remains of the deceased and to perform the rites which ensure that the departest attains a 'good state' after death, the north Indian city of Banaras attracts pilgrims and mourners from all over the Hindu world.
And this? Eck, Diana (2013) [1981], Banaras, the City of Light, Alfred Knopf Inc, [Columbia University Press], p. 324, –No other city on earth is as famous for death as is Banāras. More than for her temples and magnificent ghāts, more than for her silks and brocades, Banāras, the Great Cremation Ground, is known for death. At the center of the city along the riverfront is Manikarnikā, the sanctuary of death, with its ceaselessly smoking cremation pyres. The burning ghāt extends its influence and the sense of its presence throughout the city. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:25, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
And this? Fouberg, Erin H.; Moseley, William G. (2018), Understanding World Geography, New York: John Wiley & Sons, p. 173, ISBN 9781119473169, OCLC 1066742384, The city of Varanasi, India, is central to the death tradition in Hinduism. Hindus see Varanasi as the world of death and life, and some make pilgrimages to Varanasi to die. In Hindu tradition, if a person dies in the holy city of Varanasi on the Ganges River, he or she is attains moksha, or freedom from the cycle of death and rebirth. Pilgrims travel to Varanasi to cremate their deceased relatives on the ghats along the river.
Those are the first three of the five citations to that sentence. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:27, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
Thank you; I misremembered. Please, I am not trying to deny Varanasi's importance. I am suggesting to you that saying it is "central to ... death" doesn't communicate it well and instead pulls the reader up while they ask just what you mean. People die, Hindus die, all over India and are mourned far away from Varanasi; their funeral rites take place far from Varanasi; how is this city central to those deaths? Can you not express what you wish to say better? Those passages you quote do. NebY (talk) 19:33, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
More Geography FAs whose lead sentences are as long or longer than my proposed version above of Varanasi, or do not have strictly on-topic lead sentences, or both:
Bath, Somerset ( ) is a city in the Bath and North East Somerset unitary area in the county of Somerset, England, known for and named after its Roman-built baths.
Sale, Greater Manchester is a town in Trafford, Greater Manchester, England,[1] in the historic county of Cheshire on the south bank of the River Mersey, 2 miles (3.2 km) south of Stretford, 3 miles (4.8 km) northeast of Altrincham, and 5 miles (8.0 km) southwest of Manchester.
Shaw and Crompton is a civil parish in the Metropolitan Borough of Oldham, Greater Manchester, England, which contains the town of Shaw and lies on the River Beal at the foothills of the South Pennines.
Noel Park in north London is a planned community built in the late 19th and early 20th centuries consisting of 2,200 model dwellings, designed by Rowland Plumbe.
Those are just some randomly selected Geography ones. There are many, many, many more. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:41, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
I think your proposed version of the lead is far more satisfactory than what is currently present, and would be a significant improvement to the article. Just to clarify, the bit about Muslim artisanship would also be moved elsewhere, correct? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:45, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
Of course not. The Muslim artisanship is the second most notable thing about the city, a complement to the Hindu pilgrimage, death, and mourning. For without the Muslim craftsmanship there would be no gifts and keepsakes for the tourists to take back. Indeed even Hindu idols (in temples) are dressed by Muslim tailors. Without the first two sentences Varanasi would just be a steep river bank. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:43, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
Ie.
Varanasi (Vārāṇasī; [ʋaːˈraːɳəsi]) is a city on the Ganges river in the state of Uttar Pradesh in northern India that has a central place in pilgrimage, death, and mourning in the Hindu world. The city has a syncretic tradition of Muslim artisanship that underpins its tourism. The name Varanasi was officially so revived after 1947, but the city is still widely known by its earlier name Banaras or Benares (Banāras; [bəˈnaːrəs] (listen)), and its ancient name Kashi.Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:47, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
Here are the cited sources:
San Chirico, Kerry P. C. (2012), "Banaras", in Juergensmeyer, Mark; Roof, Wade Clark (eds.), Encyclopedia of Global Religion, Volume 1, pp. 114–116, ISBN 9780761927297, This was the period in which an enduring cultural imprint was made in ... the establishment of muhallas or neighborhoods that exist to this day, in the presence of Sufi shrines dotting the landscape, and in the creation of a singular syncretic culture ... Today Islam accounts for more than one-third of Varanasi city's population. There are as many Muslims here as there are Brahmans, the majority of whom are weavers. The relationship between the Muslims who weave Banaras's famous saris and the Hindus who sell them explains in part by historically there has been less communal tension here than in other cities throughout South Asia.
Kumar, Nita (2017) [1988], The Artisans of Banaras: Popular Culture and Identity, 1880–1986, Princeton Legacy Library, Princeton University Press, p. 18, ISBN 9781400886999, Contrary to the experience of most artisan production in modern times, the silk weaving industry has actually flourished and remained the commercial backbone of the Hindu pilgrimage and religious centre of Banaras
The second most notable thing about the city? Are you sure? Were it not for your emphasis on WP:DUE and WP:OR, I would immediately cite those guidelines and ask for evidence. Taking your first cited source as an example, the Muslim artisanship only appears at the end of the seventh paragraph (out of ten in total) — that is, after a general description, an etymology paragraph, two paragraphs about location, layout, and pilgrimage, an admonition to remember the city is also valued by other religions and purely as a settlement, and a very long early history paragraph. For "the second-most notable thing about the city", Chirico certainly doesn't seem to value it very highly. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:08, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
A quick look at your second source reveals that the artisans are both Hindu and Muslim (p.8, bottom paragraph). I would appreciate a response explaining how a seemingly-factually incorrect sentence is the second-most notable thing about the city. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:11, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
I recommend that you not try to second guess the sources by picking one source. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:20, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
I recommend also that you learn something from NebY's reply rather than attempting to Wikilawyer in a rudimentary fashion. The Muslim weavers of Benares are connected not just to commercial aspects of its religious tourism, but also to the beliefs of tourists through the Bhakti tradition. I've been writing South Asia related articles for 16 years. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:35, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
@NebY: OK thank you for your eloquent explanation. How about: Varanasi (Vārāṇasī; [ʋaːˈraːɳəsi]) is a city on the Ganges river in the state of Uttar Pradesh in northern India that has a central place in pilgrimage, the mythology of death, and traditions of mourning in the Hindu world. The city has a syncretic tradition of Muslim artisanship that underpins its religious tourism. The name Varanasi was officially so revived after 1947, but the city is still widely known by its earlier name Banaras or Benares (Banāras; [bəˈnaːrəs] (listen)), and its ancient name Kashi. Also @AirshipJungleman29:
Apologies for quoting both the sources provided; I somehow assumed that since they followed the statement "The Muslim artisanship is the second most notable thing about the city", they would in some way support it. I would recommend that this time, you provide source for the statement "The Muslim weavers of Benares are connected not just to commercial aspects of its religious tourism, but also to the beliefs of tourists through the Bhakti tradition" that actually supports it, and also signifies that it is the second-most notable aspect of the city. Congratulations on your length of service to Wikipedia, but may I suggest that you put that on your userpage rather than a talk page discussion?
As for a lead I would deem acceptable, how about Varanasi (Vārāṇasī: [ʋaːˈraːɳəsi]; also widely known by its pre-1947 name Banaras or Benares (Banāras; [bəˈnaːrəs] (listen)), and its ancient name Kashi) is a city in northern India in southeastern Uttar Pradesh. Lying on the left bank of the Ganges river, the city is 692 kilometres (430 mi) to the southeast of India's capital New Delhi, 320 kilometres (200 mi) south-east of the state capital, Lucknow, and 121 kilometres (75 mi) east of Allahabad (officially Prayagraj). A major religious hub, Varanasi is considered a holy city in Hinduism and Jainism, and its traditions of pilgrimage, death, and mourning have accorded the city worldwide fame. Or similar, obviously (name first; location; then religious importance). ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:57, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
I'm afraid, not with the lack of coherence both in English phrasing and geography, such as
its traditions of pilgrimage, death, and mourning have accorded the city worldwide fame.
The "traditions have accorded?"
I don't see that expression in the books published in the English language. See here
"world-wide fame?"
The sources say, "No other city on earth is as famous for death as is Banāras." or "the north Indian city of Banaras attracts pilgrims and mourners from all over the Hindu world." None mean that it has world-wide fame.
A major religious hub?
Are we talking airlines or tourism? Major "major hub" is typically not used with "religion," unless something more specific is meant, at least not in the scholarly sources.
its traditions? The traditions are not of the city alone? Do you mean its place (or centrality) in the history of pilgrimage, the mythology of death, and traditions of mourning, in Hinduism?
Lying on the left bank of the river in the middle-Ganges valley in the southeastern part of the state of Uttar Pradesh,"
what river? there are many rivers in the middle-Ganges valley; (if you mean the Ganges, then why are you repeating "Ganges" before valley, and not saying "river valley?") Coherent writing is more like: Located in the middle-Ganges valley in the southeastern part of the state of Uttar Pradesh, Varanasi lies on the left bank of the river." (from the general to the particular) Those are just two sentences.
If the concern is that the alternative names are not in the lead sentence, I can fix that in short order. Will do so in the article. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:28, 7 December 2022 (UTC) OK, I'm done. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:52, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
Again, user:NebY was eloquent, and I've incorporated their suggestions.
I have also incorporated one of your implied suggestions that the alternative names be in the lead sentence.
I have added two new sources: Singh, OUP, 2022 for the lead sentence, and Mallet, OUP, 2017, for the Muslim partisanship. The uninformed reader now receives ripples of new information in a coherent fashion; they are not inundated all at once. This also means that if you persist in adlibbing with little overall understanding of sources in your posts and only argue about the quotes I have provided, I will ask for help. Quotes in WP are never meant to be comprehensive; they supplement information in different ways. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:07, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
1) can we please stop adding sources to the lead per WP:LEADCITE, unless you feel like disrupting in a pointy way. I wasn't aware that including eleven sources in the first two sentences (in addition to two non-functioning notes) was "not inundating the uninformed reader", but perhaps your definition is different
2) Thank you for your objections to my proposal, although those on the river were rather out of date. You may want to take a new look.
a) If you have so much trouble with the three-letter definite article (which, not incidentally, isn't present in my proposal), maybe you should look for examples without it. See for example here. Again, I'm not sure why you felt the need to specialise your search for "religious hub" to such an extent, but this might be helpful.
b)Your other suggestions are relevant, and I look forward to your constructive feedback on how to improve them.
3) Personally, I wouldn't reply Please don't waste my time with nonsense. Have you looked at the sources that are cited? You obviously not. to a person I considered eloquent, but there we are.
4) Quotes in WP are never meant to be comprehensive; they supplement information in different ways. Which, presumably, you synthesize together? For whenever you want to reply, or when you ask for help, I would still like to know your source for the sentence "The Muslim artisanship is the second most notable thing about the city..."
a) Maybe we could get our mutual friend Pataliputra to weigh in? I'm sure that would calm everything right down. This is a joke, in case that wasn't clear. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:56, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
Listen. I'm not here to make jokes or enjoy yours. You have wasted my time. I am looking to minimize it. Traditions cannot accord worldwide fame. They can accord fame. They can accord glorious fame, inglorious fame, infamy. I know the English language. You could perhaps even say different traditions have together accorded worldwide fame to the city. It all depends on how it is said. Yours is neither coherent nor idiomatic English.
I will add two more sources, and thereafter stack the citations. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:50, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
See this search which brings up one sentence of Lynn Thorndike from 1905. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:55, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
I am tired. I see this trend again and again. Someone with no history of editing a page or its topic area walks off the street and slashes portions of a longstanding lead, which in this instance was nearly one year old. They then attempt to bicker endlessly and ask for proof in direct quotes but at the same time decry the use of too many sources. Please take this forward in whichever manner you are able to. I am done. I am bone tired. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:37, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
Are all game for the whims of editors with a newfound zeal for slashing text? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:35, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
Yes, I do believe that it is a central pillar of Wikipedia that all articles can always be improved, and that all constructive editors are welcome to work on them. I also believe that listing other articles you may have worked on in the past only takes away from the present discussion. I look forward to hearing the views of the respected editors you have pinged. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:34, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
You removed the first two sentences with no previous discussion on the talk page. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:52, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
And your recent history betrays a slashing spree. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:52, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
Good to see you've recovered from your extreme tiredness. You cited BRD in your initial edit summary, so I assume you remenber it exists. This will be my last post here until a third opinion arrives, and you can be assured I will stick to both my word and the current discussion. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:13, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
(responding to ping) I'm fine with the current version. While we could tinker with the actual wording, religion and death are central to the identity of Varanasi. (Apologies for the inadvertent archiving - for some unknown reason the archive link and the edit link for this thread are smooshed together on my browser) --RegentsPark (comment) 17:11, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
Aadhinkta
Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Industrialisation topic ko is jahah par add karna chahiye
It's my opinion for the Wikipedia.
Latest comment: 10 months ago11 comments2 people in discussion
I am in the favour of the lead the way it is right now. In lead, it must include only for it is known widely. Other features should be mentioned in down like professional educational things. Themodifie7 (talk) 03:38, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
@Themodifie7: There is a lead and infobox in place in the article. It is impeccably sourced, with reliable secondary sources and has due weight in the literature and is also supported by WP:TERTIARY sources. Please read WP:BRD. The WP:ONUS is on you to achieve a new consensus on this talk page. You cannot arbitrarily change anything in the lead until then, nor edit war.
Thus far I have not seen any arguments, nor any sources based in WP:SCHOLARSHIP, which is Wikipedia's highest quality source, that support your sentences.
Again, you need to establish a fresh consensus here before the text in the lead can be changed. Consensus takes time. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 06:32, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
@Fowler&fowler well i am not doing any war. what lines in that reverted edit require sources, i think it's holy city in hinduism? right? i will add sources too. but i am saying. not all edits needs to be reverted. that's why i came here to you. Themodifie7 (talk) 07:51, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
Any change will require attribution that is both scholarly and has due weight in the literature. Please read the links I have added above. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 08:17, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
@Fowler&fowler It's widely known as holy city for Hinduism. This seems special case for wikipedia for anything related to hinduism it needs approval of foreigners pov. ok as if you or wikipedia want i am gonna provide scholarly sources. have a look in lead. :) Themodifie7 (talk) 08:50, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
@Themodifie7: This is not a chat room and I'm not your pal. Please stay away from personal comments otherwise you are looking at penalties, including blocks and bans. Copying @Abecedare and RegentsPark: (Not sure what to do with this editor; they seem to be entirely unconversant with WP rules.) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 08:56, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
@Fowler&fowler I know it's not chat room. thankyou and apologing if it really hurts your heart. Please have a look on latest edit. i have provided the sources. Themodifie7 (talk) 09:02, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
i have edited varanasi page several times and never removed anything. just sorted it as it needed to be. Themodifie7 (talk) 09:06, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
@Themodifie7: I don't think you understand. You cannot make the edits first and then discuss. You have to presents the edits (with the sources) here then achieve a consensus for your edit. Only then can you change the lead. Please self-revert your edits. Seriously, this is the last time I will warn you. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:08, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
Latest comment: 9 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion
This edit request to Varanasi has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
Replacing the Manikarnika Ghat Image with a Godowlia Market Image, Varanasi is well known as City of Ghats but visitors to Varanasi page might appreciate a diverse representation of Varanasi. SamudraScars (talk) 09:59, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Please be more precise on which image file, you want to request to be changed, and to which image file to be changed to. —Paper9oll(🔔 • 📝) 10:59, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
Infobox images need change for representation
Latest comment: 7 months ago68 comments10 people in discussion
Images are not properly representing the city that it should as this is a page for the city Varanasi. Hence a change is needed. Some famous places are also missing from the infobox image section as well which should be added. Hence making some changes in infobox here. Open for discussion and modifications.
I have reverted your edit per WP:BRD and WP:ONUS. It is Wikipedia policy. You need to achieve a new consensus to overturn a longstanding selection of images. A new consensus takes time—several days and quite often over a week. The infobox pictures serve, in part, to also illustrate the text in the lead. What text in the lead had your pictures attempted to illustrate? Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:18, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
well for each newly added image there's caption at the bottom, before reverting you should have checked DaDeadzombie (talk) 18:22, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
I said: how do the newly added images illustrate the text in the lead, by which I mean all four paragraphs in the lead of text in the lead—as much as six or seven images can.
All images a priori illustrate their respective captions if the caption are half-way on the mark.
@DaDeadzombie:, please self-revert and attempt to garner a consensus for you edits here first; otherwise, I will be compelled to seek administrative help. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:28, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
I have again reverted your infobox image changes. Examining the page history, I noticed you had attempted to do so once before in a similar unexplained manner. I note again: the present choice of images, e.g. Manikarnika Ghat (the major funeral site), Bismillah Khan, Tulsidas, Benares Hindu University, Benares Sanskrit College, a weaver, and so forth ... all illustrate sentences in the lead about these topics; yours, in contrast, are random. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:03, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
whatever Lead you are mentioning have hyperlinks. So one can give it a go. and also the images I have put are not random if you give it a look. It's just the recent images of the same places you have mentioned. DaDeadzombie (talk) 06:05, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
Why have any images at all in the infobox as everything there is in hyperlinks?
You have now removed text from the lead on the grounds that humans can't be mentioned. What aspect of the MOS:LEAD guidelines is that? Why did you leave in Annie Besant? I will revert back to the longstanding version one more time. Your images are shining ones that might appeal to some tourists, but how are they encyclopedic? There is nothing in the lead about a railway station, let alone about how it appears lit up in the night after a rain shower. There is nothing encyclopedic in showing the new tourist vista of the Kashi Vishwanath Temple. I am now pinging some administrators. If you persist in edit-warring, I will post on their user talk pages. @RegentsPark, Abecedare, El C, and Vanamonde93:Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:31, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
BHU Central Library 2016How is the picture of the Central Library taken in 2016—which shows a clean building, much obscured by palm trees, not to mention the grass of Ireland—more encyclopedic or more representative of the Benares Hindu University than the picture also taken in 2016 which had shown a fuller view of a building, the humans that make it a university, and the more realistic grass, not to mention some mildew on the outer walls?
whatever encyclopaedic images you are talking about have already their own pages with history, legacy details.
This is Varanasi city page, in infobox the images present should represent the city it's famous places not some personality who are from the place that's it.
Reverting it to the last version of the infobox DaDeadzombie (talk) 13:41, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
I have no opinion on the specific images offered here, but @DaDeadzombie:, as the person seeking to make changes to long-standing content, it is your responsibility to obtain consensus for the change, via talk page discussion or an RFC. You may not repeatedly revert to your preferred version once it's been challenged. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:17, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
I think the current set of images, with captions visually represents better on the infobox. 103.249.7.20 (talk) 18:17, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
@DaDeadzombie I agree. city has been presented by some unknown users who really don't know about Varanasi. again it is changed by Flower name user. Who is not ready to listen talk page discussion Themodifie7 (talk) 02:43, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
OK, @DaDeadzombie: I am happy to take out the historical personalities. How about this image selection for the infobox? They are all very new images; most were taken after 2018. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:11, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
From top, left to right: Munshi Ghat, Varanasi; Varanasi street; Lal Khan Tomb; New Vishwanath Temple, Benares Hindu University; Varanasi Railway Station; Adi Keshav Temple, the city's oldest; Faculty of Arts, BHU; Benares Sanskrit College, founded in 1791 during East India Company rule.
@103.249.7.20: Wedging the captions between pictures takes away from the visual quality of the arrangement. The arrangement becomes irrelevant. The white borders become thick horizontally, but remain narrow vertically; the captions run into a second line, even when they are short.
See the same pictures on the left Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:35, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
@Fowler&fowler Stop reverting again and again. Talk page discussion is here. People here are agree as it was done by DaDeadzombie. Don't need to mention some particular people in images and some exceptions. Themodifie7 (talk) 02:45, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
I have reverted only to the longstanding version. An admin, Vanamonde93, has just posted above. Please read. You need to obtain consensus here for changing that longstanding text. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:49, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
Consensus takes time, weeks sometime. An IP posting their personal preference is not an opinion. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:50, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
Again @Themodifie7: Please read the administrator's words above to @DaDeadzombie:: "as the person seeking to make changes to long-standing content, it is your responsibility to obtain consensus for the change, via talk page discussion or an RFC. You may not repeatedly revert to your preferred version once it's been challenged." Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:18, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
we all came into an agreement that any famous Personality image from the same page should not be used in City page infobox right? I think We all agreed upon it. so whh @Fowler&fowler again moved it back to the same old format where some personalities' images are in city page infobox?
I'm reverting back to previous without personality images version. DaDeadzombie (talk) 09:40, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
I'm failing to understand Munshi Ghat, Benaras College, Manikarnika Ghat all are in use in existing infobox.
Only 2 personality names are changed to other famous places as this is a city page.
and for Munshi Ghat, a more shining image is used that goes well with the format of infobox with proper captions as well.
Failing to understand when majority in talk page are in favour of the new change of removing personality names from infobox why without coming into conclusions the images are again & again reverted.!!!
please @Fowler&fowler before reverting back we can proceed with the discussion conclusions.! DaDeadzombie (talk) 09:47, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
@DaDeadzombie: I can't tell if you're purposely ignoring the warnings people are giving you, but once again, you need to STOP REVERTING to your preferred version of the page until consensus is reached here. You're heading for a block. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 10:01, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
I have added alt text to the images in the infobox. This helps three kinds of people:
those who cannot see and need alt text to tell them what images show,
those who find the caption at the bottom of the collage difficult to understand,
people who add images and want to check that the caption still lists the images in the right order
I think this means that changing from collage format to eight-separate-images format is now no longer necessary.-- Toddy1(talk) 10:11, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
so what is this discussion heading to?
Let's update the infobox with the new changes, that represents the CITY of Varanasi which the article page is meant for. DaDeadzombie (talk) 12:16, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
@DaDeadzombie: Which new changes are you referring to ? I have proposed new images above. Are those acceptable to you? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:32, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
Maybe it would be more productive to discuss separately:
Whether to use collage format, or to have individual captions for images in the infobox,
Whether the width should be 250 or 260,
What those images should be.
So what I have done is to create a comparison of the three versions, all in the same 250 collage format with alt text for all images.-- Toddy1(talk) 13:37, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
@DaDeadzombie exactly I agree with your edit. Lead is very confusing to know about city. Themodifie7 (talk) 14:07, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
Discussion whether the images in the infobox should be in collage format, or have individual captions
DaDeadzombie => (Collage format or individual captions both look fine. But going by other city pages individual captions are way forward. Any new changes can be made easily when required when there's individual caption (example let's say reconstruction of something famous, renaming of some place, new important landmark that is essential and required to be added etc.) DaDeadzombie (talk) 18:33, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
Discussion whether the width should be 250 or 260
DaDeadzombie => (With captions would prefer 260 or may be larger if required. Without captions 250px should be okay.) DaDeadzombie (talk) 14:31, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
Comparison of the infobox with different image choices
Current infobox collage
DaDeadzombie's suggested images in collage format
Fowler&fowler's suggested images in collage format
Left to right, top to bottom:Munshi Ghat, Varanasi; Varanasi street; Lal Khan Tomb; New Vishwanath Temple, Benares Hindu University; Varanasi Railway Station; Adi Keshav Temple, the city's oldest; Faculty of Arts, BHU; Benares Sanskrit College, founded in 1791 during East India Company rule.
Discussion about different image choices
DaDeadzombie => (1st set i.e The current infobox images don't represent the city at all. Some personalities are mentioned which is irrelevant for image infobox of a city page. Also famous places like Kashi Vish Temple is ignored.
2ne set is arranged by me that represents famous places with better resolution images in a proper format. Open for new suggestions and upgrades.
3rd set i.e Fowler&fowler's suggestion is totally weird. Out of all famous places he chooses a blank & white random narrow gully image with a cow sitting :(
and also some other images like Adi Keshav Temple, Lal Khan Tomb are not notable places these places don't have their own Wikipedia pages but the images of 2nd set certainly have. ! ) DaDeadzombie (talk) 14:31, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
yeah, looks like everyone involved has put their suggestions. Conclusions should be made now. DaDeadzombie (talk) 14:17, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
Toddy1 => Personally, I like the current collage. But comparing the new images:
DaDeadzombie's collage has three photographs of buildings next to the river, which I think is excessive. In addition the Munshi Ghat and Ahilya Ghat photographs are too similar to each other.
In the station image in DaDeadzombie's collage the main feature is the station building, whereas the main feature of the station image in Fowler&fowler's collage is the way it is lit up at night. DaDeadzombie's station image is a better choice because of that.
The Benares Hindu University image is better in the current collage than in either of DaDeadzombie's or Fowler&fowler's collages.
I think that if you took DaDeadzombie's collage and replaced Benares Hindu University image with the current one, and replaced the Ahilya Ghat and Manikarnika Ghat images with two of Fowler&fowler's tomb/temple images you would have an improved collage.-- Toddy1(talk) 14:53, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
@Toddy1 Putting some particular persons as for any famous thing is stupid, I am talking about individuals images. replace it with for what Varanasi is best known for:
Replace images with best quality images of
Branaras Hindu University,
Dhashwamegh Ghat
Kashi vishwanath temple
Sanskrit College
etc
I am agreeing with Deadzombie. Themodifie7 (talk) 15:03, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
shall we update the infobox now once the discussions are completed. For the last 24 hours there's no new thread on this discussion DaDeadzombie (talk) 14:18, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
@DaDeadzombie I am agree to change infobox and lead of Varanasi the way it is written. Themodifie7 (talk) 14:22, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
shall we update & make the changes as per the all the suggestions on the infobox?? DaDeadzombie (talk) 14:22, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
@DaDeadzombie I do agree with you as you had edited the lead and infobox but reverted by Toddy and one more user. I Themodifie7 (talk) 14:23, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
okay I am updating the page infobox to the new version which is made and also suggested in the discussions.
@DaDeadzombie i would prefer Dhashwamegh Ghats image where famous Ganga arti happens everyday. And update lead opening page. It's widely considered holiest place in Hindu world. Themodifie7 (talk) 14:38, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
yes sure. feel free to update the infobox with the mentioned detail DaDeadzombie (talk) 15:34, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
I actually prefer F&F's version - it also has the huge merit of being the shortest, as it only uses landscape format images. 3 night-time images is a bit much, & one might swop the station pic with that used in another set. Johnbod (talk) 15:44, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
F&F's version makes no sense. All popular places that city is known for are completely ignored. And some strange choice of images are selected. DaDeadzombie (talk) 15:51, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
@DaDeadzombie seperate all images with under caption as Lucknow page have. Themodifie7 (talk) 15:56, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
images seperated with individual captions as suggested DaDeadzombie (talk) 16:21, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
@DaDeadzombie Lal Tomb's doesn't have Wikipedia page. what kind of famous place is this? Never heard. Themodifie7 (talk) 16:28, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
yeah, I agree with you. as suggested in the discussion hence I added. Please help to replace the image with any famous place DaDeadzombie (talk) 16:29, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
yes Boss, I have updated as per suggestions 😄 DaDeadzombie (talk) 16:35, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
Comment by Fowler&fowler: I have to be away from Wikipedia until Wednesday August 16. I apologize but this discussion will have to await a final resolution until well after that date. Let me address some points briefly:
A picture of the newly made touristy entrance to the Kashi Vishwanath Temple raised on the hurriedly cleared debris of dozens of old temples is too controversial for the info box of this article. The head priest of the temple has criticized it in the reliable media. That is the reason I have a picture of the BHU Vishwanath temple which is also a part of the city’s history.
If the pictures of humans that are important in the city’s history, culture, or economy are removed then the pictures that replace them have to represent some of the same spirit that the humans did. Benares is nothing without the narrow alleys in which much of the city’s trade is conducted. Some such picture is a must.
I added the beautiful picture of the tomb, an ASI landmark, to represent the role, and I mean the constructive role, that Islam has played in the city’s medieval, early modern, and modern history.
I added the beautiful picture of the Adi Keshava temple, the city’s oldest, to make a double point: not only is it dedicated to another major Hindu deity, Vishnu, but it is also constructed on a site overlooking one of the rivers that has given the city its name.
As for the Benares Cantonment railway junction, whose picture has been proposed for the info box, I have no feeling. I don’t know how old that building is. It doesn’t appear to be a British era building. Tourists don’t go to gawk as they do the old stations in Mumbai Delhi or Chennai.
In the new info box I have proposed, there is only one picture of the city’s fabled river banks, rising steeply from the water, or ghats. It is a WP featured picture. There is another featured picture of the ghats, a beautiful one actually, but it is too dark to be appropriate for an info box.
I am delighted that Johnbod is here as they know much more about visual representation than I do.
Sarnath is not a part of Varanasi, neither architecturally nor historically. Please read Lion capital of Ashoka and view a picture of the column, now broken, that had once held the capital aloft, that I had uploaded. Notice the pilgrims walking around. They don’t go to Varanasi. They don’t frequent the ghats. If they go to the river they go to the opposite bank where the land is flat. But that is the bank where the Buddha stopped briefly before he crossed the river en route to Sarnath. He did not stop in Varanasi.
This is all I have to say for now. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:01, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
@Fowler&fowle what happened to this discussion? Doesn't really matter what others discussed? Themodifie7 (talk) 15:03, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
He's expressing his view, just as you have (but with less detail). Don't get frustrated just because he and others don't agree with you. Johnbod (talk) 15:15, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
@Johnbod Just because he has different view and he is unavailable doesn't mean discussion will be closed. Deadzombie and others were agree with me Themodifie7 (talk) 15:20, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
Please just wait a few weeks so that other people can contribute.-- Toddy1(talk) 16:52, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
Further comment by F&f: I don’t like doing this on my vacation, but will say just this much more: Deadzombie has been blocked for two weeks for edit-warring on this page, so they will not be saying much until more than a week after my return. Vanamonde93 isn’t the only admin watching this page; Themodifie7 has thus far said nothing, only claimed local expertise and mocked other editors’ choices. The IP’s sentence is neither here nor there, and we are unable to ascertain who they are. I could check at WP:Checkuser if they don’t advance cogent reasons for their choice. I wrote the sourced lead and had chosen the images to complement the lead’s text. I worked hard on it using impeccable scholarly sources. I have explained my choices in detail. To have a postcard montage (in Johnbod’s apt description on my user talk page) illustrating scholarship is incompatible with Wikipedia’s principles and goals to be a first rate encyclopedia.
As for personal experience, not that it matters on Wikipedia, as I’ve stated elsewhere on WP: I’ve been both to Varanasi and Sarnath; we also visited BHU, spent an hour in the office of a dean, who then asked a junior faculty to show us around. It was this gentleman who told us to avoid the Kashi Vishwanath, to prefer instead the university’s Vishwanath temple, which is much more both beautiful. I’ve even jumped off a boat midstream in the Ganges, nearly 200 m from each bank, and swam there for some time. The water there was still murky but a great deal cleaner than off the near-toxic river banks. I did so relatively recently. So claiming local expertise leaves me cold. And speaking of cold, I’ve also swum in the winter in the swift moving water of the Ganges in Devprayag where it begins barely 15 meters from the confluence of the Bhagirathi and the Alaknanda. See my pictures on the pages of the two head streams, as well on Rudraprayag, Nandaprayag, Karnaprayag and Vishnuprayag up the Alaknanda valley.
If you persist after my return on the 16th, I’ll begin a full blown RfC and advertise not only in Wiki Projects India, but also in Wiki Projects History, Art, Architecture, and others. At least that way we will have stable set of choices for the info box pictures. Best Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:40, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
Please revert @DaDeadzombie edit. If others don't want to discuss. Themodifie7 (talk) 08:15, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
Hi @Themodifie7, Yes others aren't discussing on this topic. We shouldn't keep it as it is, as here majority agrees on making changes of the infobox. I'm currently restricted from making changes for Varanasi page. Requesting you to make the changes as per our discussions @Themodifie7DaDeadzombie (talk) 08:18, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
@DaDeadzombie Same restrictions would be applied on me and reasons would be given that I changed it during on going discussions.It will be better to conclude here and then do change. Themodifie7 (talk) 08:23, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
There is no majority:
DaDeadzombie - in favour
Themodifie7 - in favour
The IP editor - in favour
Fowler&fowler - not in favour, objects to change to gallery format, has proposed other images
Toddy1 - not in favour, prefers current montage, objects to change to gallery format, if a new images are in a montage would prefer a mix of DaDeadzombie and Fowler&fowler's images (for example, prefers DaDeadzombie's station picture to Fowler&fowler's station picture)
Johnbod - not in favour, prefers Fowler&fowler's images, though might prefer to use DaDeadzombie's station picture instead of Fowler&fowler's station picture
Vanamonde - objects to a change until consensus is reached
Dāsānudāsa - objects to a change until consensus is reached
Thank you @Toddy1: for posting this very helpful summary. It is now almost a month since that date, and a full six weeks after this RfC began.
No edits have been made after yours. This suggests to me that there is little appetite for extending the discussion further, and in particular for offering further rationales for the various positions held. May suggest that someone uninvolved close the thread. I don't see a consensus for a change, but they might feel differently.
As this is a controversial topic, perhaps an uninvolved admin might want to take a stab. Thanks, and best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:43, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
@Fowler&fowler Varanasi page is still written very confusing. for what it is known for and what this page shows. Themodifie7 (talk) 02:35, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
Latest comment: 7 months ago3 comments2 people in discussion
@Fowler&fowler: Dear editor, the native name of the city (in redirect template) was misspelled, adjusted names (infobox>native_name) in both alphabetical and chronological order, and Benares Sanskrit College redirects to Sampurnanand Sanskrit Vishwavidyalaya, kindly cross-check the facts while making an edit. Thank you! — 𝙰𝚔𝚜𝚑𝚊𝚍𝚎𝚟™💬 04:01, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
I know the the Benares Sanskrit College was the name from 1791 to 1974, when it was changed to Sampurnanand Sanskrit University; but the lead is talking about a college that was founded during British times, not about it becoming a university in 1958, and being renamed 16 years thereafter. Please also see Varanasi on Britannica. It begins with, "Varanasi, also called Benares, Banaras, or Kashi, city, southeastern Uttar Pradesh state, northern India." Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:22, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
"Benares" was the most common name for the city (in published books) from 1800 to 1952;
"Banaras" became more popular in 1953, but lost the spot again to "Benares" in 1999. "Varanasi" currently edges out "Benares," but only by a hair's breadth. @Akshadev: I have just examined the lead, especially the first two lead sentences. As a result of tweaking by various editors, it now reads poorly, its original citations either missing or in the wrong place. I will be rewriting some parts to reflect the scholarly sources. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:26, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
b (citations to reliable sources): 
Done Dr. Blofeld and Nvvchar, I certify that my comments up until this point have been addressed and satisfied. Great job! -- West Virginian (talk) 20:17, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the 
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. JTP (talk • contribs) 20:00, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
Sunise ganga river from ghats of varanasi
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