Wikipedia:Good article reassessment

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Good article reassessment

Good article reassessment (GAR) is a process primarily used to determine whether an article that is listed as good article (GA) still merits its good article status according to the good article criteria, and to delist it if not. There are two types of reassessment: individual reassessment and community reassessment. An individual reassessment is discussed on the article talk page and concluded by a single editor in much the same way as a review of a good article nomination. Community reassessments are listed for discussion on this page and are concluded according to consensus. Where possible, editors should conduct an individual reassessment, while community reassessment should be used if delisting is likely to be controversial. Community reassessments can also be used to challenge a fail during a good article nomination. This is not a peer review process; for that use Wikipedia:Peer review. The outcome of a reassessment should only depend on whether the article being reassessed meets the good article criteria or not. Many problems (including the presence of dead URLs, inconsistently formatted citations, and compliance with the Manual of Style) are not covered by the GA criteria and therefore not grounds for delisting.

Unless an article's issues are extensive, consider taking the following steps before initiating a reassessment:

  1. Fix any simple problems yourself. Do not waste minutes explaining or justifying a problem that you could fix in seconds. GAR is not a forum to shame editors over easily fixed problems.
  2. Tag serious problems that you cannot fix with appropriate template messages, if the templates will help other editors find the problems. Do not tag bomb the article.
  3. Notify major contributors to the article and the relevant Wikiprojects. Remember, the aim is not to delist the article, but to fix it.

A list of all open GA reassessment nominees may be found at Category:Good article reassessment nominees.

Articles needing possible reassessment

Occasionally, rather than initiating either individual or community reassessment, an editor will merely tag the article as possibly needing reassessment. These tagged articles are listed on this page and each needs the attention of an editor to decide if reassessment is required. To tag an article, {{GAR request}} is placed at the top of the article talk page.

Individual reassessment

When to use this process

  • Use the individual reassessment process when you find an article listed as a good article that you don't believe satisfies the good article criteria and:
    • You would like to receive input from a community of editors who watch the article talk page
    • You believe the decision to continue listing the article or to delist it should be yours, at the conclusion of a good article reassessment discussion (unless you believe a decision made by you is likely to be controversial, then opt for community reassessment instead)
  • Use the individual reassessment process if:
    • You are confident in your ability to assess the article
    • You are not a major contributor to the article
    • You know the article has not been delisted before
    • You don't see any ongoing content dispute or edit war
    • You are logged in (unless you are not a registered user, then you may try asking another editor to reassess the article)

Note

  • Individual reassessments do not appear below on the good article reassessment page; those are all community reassessments.

How to use this process

  • The instructions for individual reassessment are:
  1. Paste {{subst:GAR}} to the top of the article talk page. Do not place it inside another template. Save the page.
  2. Follow the first bold link in the template to create an individual reassessment page (while the second bold link creates a community reassessment page). The individual reassessment page for this article is created as a subpage of the article talk page.
  3. Leave an assessment on this page detailing your reasons for bringing the article to good article reassessment. List the problems you found with the article in comparison to the good article criteria. Save the page.
  4. Transclude the individual assessment on the article talk page as follows: Edit the article talk page and paste in{{Talk:ArticleName/GAn}}. Replace ArticleName with the name of the article and n with the subpage number of the reassessment page you just created. This will display a new section named "GA Reassessment" followed by the individual reassessment discussion.
  5. Notify major contributing editors, relevant WikiProjects for the article, the nominator and the reviewer. The {{GARMessage}} template can be used for notifications by placing {{subst:GARMessage|ArticleName|page=n}} ~~~~ on user talk pages. Replace ArticleName with the name of the article and n with the subpage number of the reassessment page you just created.
  6. Wait for other editors to respond.
  7. During the individual reassessment discussion, you must decide if the article has improved enough to meet the good article criteria. When the discussion has concluded, you may close it.
  8. To close the discussion, edit the individual reassessment page of the article. State the outcome of the discussion (whether there was consensus and what action was taken) and explain how the consensus and action was determined from the comments.
  9. The article either meets or does not meet the good article criteria:
    • If the article now meets the criteria, you can keep the article listed as GA. To do this, delete the {{GAR/link}} template from the article talk page and update the {{Article history}} template on the article talk page.
    • If the article still does not meet the criteria, you can delist it. To do this, remove the article from the relevant list at good articles, remove the {{good article}} template from the article page, remove the {{GAR/link}} template from the article talk page, update the {{Article history}} template on the article talk page (see example), and restore any project assessment values on the article talk page (check history to see what they were).


Good article reassessment
Community reassessment

When to use this process

  • Use the community reassessment process when you find an article listed as a good article that you don't believe satisfies the good article criteria and:
    • You would like to receive input from a community of editors who watch the good article reassessment page
    • You believe the decision to continue listing the article or to delist it should be the result of consensus, at the conclusion of a good article reassessment discussion (unless you believe a decision made by you is not likely to be controversial, then opt for individual reassessment instead)
  • Use the community reassessment process if:
    • You are not confident in your ability to assess the article
    • You are a major contributor to the article
    • You disagree with an earlier delist decision
    • You are logged in (unless you are not a registered user, then you may try asking another editor to reassess the article)
    • You disagree with a fail at Wikipedia:Good article nominations (however, it is rarely helpful to request a community reassessment for this; it is usually simpler to renominate it)

Requesting reassessment during a content dispute or edit war is usually inappropriate, wait until the article stabilizes and then consider reassessment. If significant instability persists for more than a couple of weeks, then reassessment on the grounds of instability may be considered.

How to use this process

  • The instructions for community reassessment are:
  1. Paste {{subst:GAR}} to the top of the article talk page. Do not place it inside another template. Save the page.
  2. Follow the second bold link in the template to create a community reassessment page (while the first bold link creates an individual reassessment page). The community reassessment page for this article is created as a subpage of the good article reassessment page.
  3. Leave an assessment on this page detailing your reasons for bringing the article to good article reassessment. List the problems you found with the article in comparison to the good article criteria. Save the page. A bot will add the assessment to the GA reassessment page.
  4. Transclude the community assessment on the article talk page as follows: Edit the article talk page and create a new section named "GA Reassessment". Paste in{{WP:Good article reassessment/ArticleName/n}}. Replace ArticleName with the name of the article and n with the subpage number of the reassessment page you just created. This will display the community reassessment discussion.
  5. Notify major contributing editors, relevant WikiProjects for the article, the nominator and the reviewer. The {{GARMessage}} template can be used for notifications by placing {{subst:GARMessage|ArticleName|GARpage=n}} ~~~~ on user talk pages. Replace ArticleName with the name of the article and n with the subpage number of the reassessment page you just created.
  6. Wait for other editors to respond.
  7. During the community reassessment discussion, consensus must decide if the article has improved enough to meet the good article criteria. When the discussion has concluded, any uninvolved editor may close it (if needed, a request may be made at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure).
  8. To close the discussion, edit the community reassessment page of the article and locate {{GAR/current}}. Replace it with {{subst:GAR/result|result=outcome}} ~~~~. Replace outcome with the outcome of the discussion (whether there was consensus and what action was taken) and explain how the consensus and action was determined from the comments. A bot will remove the assessment from the GA reassessment page and will add it to the current archive.
  9. The article either meets or does not meet the good article criteria:
    • If the article now meets the criteria, you can keep the article listed as GA. To do this, delete the {{GAR/link}} template from the article talk page and update the {{Article history}} template on the article talk page.
    • If the article still does not meet the criteria, you can delist it. To do this, remove the article from the relevant list at good articles, remove the {{good article}} template from the article page, remove the {{GAR/link}} template from the article talk page, update the {{Article history}} template on the article talk page (see example), and restore any project assessment values on the article talk page (check history to see what they were). A bot will remove and archive the assessment from the GA reassessment page.


Articles needing possible reassessmentEdit

The Good articles listed below would benefit from the attention of reviewers as to whether they need to be reassessed. In cases where they do, please open an individual or community reassessment and remove the {{GAR request}} template from the article talk page. In cases where they do not, remove the template from the article talk page.

The intention is to keep the above list empty most of the time. If an article is currently a featured article candidate, please do not open a reassessment until the FAC has been closed.

See also

Articles listed for community reassessmentEdit

WalesEdit

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · WatchWatch article reassessment pageMost recent review
Result pending

As I stated on the talk page a week ago, "There's a considerable amount of unsourced text (fails WP:V), MOS:IMAGELOC issues, and needs significant trimming per summary style as it nearly 100K readable prose (focus)." buidhe 18:48, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

A week is not very long, is it? I made a start but other editors need to be given a chance to comment and edit. Tony Holkham (Talk) 20:44, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
I'm going to close this reassessment unless you list the specific statements on this page that are unsourced. If you feel there is a problem then the onus is on you to point out what it is and not expect other editors to second guess you. With regards to the article size and placement of images, you've linked to guidelines, not policies. These are superceded by consensus and common sense. If the location of the images are a problem in your eyes, move them. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 20:45, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
The article as it stands does not meet the GA criteria. GA reassesments must be open at least a week and may only be closed by an uninvolved editor. You are welcome to voice your opinion which will be taken into account by the closer, but you are not uninvolved. buidhe 21:28, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
(a) It wasn't a week, it was six days. (b) Triggering a formal reassessment with so little warning causes much more work (not to mention aggravation) than giving those interested time to bring the article up to scratch. Re-assess the article if you think that is the right path. Simply tagging unsourced paragraphs (and threatening loss of GA status on the project page) will not do. Tony Holkham (Talk) 21:36, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
Reassesment can be open as long as necessary as long as improvements are being made. It isn't intended as a threat but as a process of improvement. buidhe 21:39, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
I don't understand the "inline" part of the relevance template used. Tony Holkham (Talk) 11:59, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
In what way am I invloved?Catfish Jim and the soapdish 12:15, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
You expressed your personal opinion that the article should not be delisted. That's equivalent to !voting keep in an AfD and then closing the AfD as keep, which is not allowed. buidhe 12:26, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
I don't think Catfish did express the opinion that the article should not be delisted. Tony Holkham (Talk) 12:57, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
No I didn't. I'm a little concerned about the interpretation of WP:INVOLVED here and suggest Buidhe reads it again. However, I see the article is being improved as we speak so I'm going to step back. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 20:29, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
  • Hi all. Just a process note at this stage. I might get around to looking at the article at a later date. There is no guidelines on how long to wait before bringing an article up for reassessment. In my experience leaving a note at the talk page and waiting any length of time is the exception rather than the rule. Also I would not worry about the deadline. We require at least a week, but in practice these are left open much longer. As long as editors re working to get the article up to standard I don't see anyone closing it. The aim of everyone here is to improve it. AIRcorn (talk) 21:37, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
  • Comments: As noted above, this article is far longer than our guidelines recommend. There are some obvious areas that can be cut, for example there is no need for historiography on such a high-level article. The section headering in History is also quite excessive. There are other areas throughout the article with headers covering a single paragraph of even a single sentence. "Cities" is a level 2 header that could be literally just a sentence in Demographics. There are also many tiny paragraphs throughout the article, which are discouraged by MOS. The Culture section lacks any sort of cohesive focus. There's nothing that tells the reader facts about Welsh culture, merely a series of sections with various specific examples. Lastly, there are various citation needed tags scattered throughout the article which should be fixed. CMD (talk) 16:05, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
I think we are clear now what is wrong with the article, and that probably doesn't need repeating. I just hope there are some editors willing to come and put it right so it can retain GA status. Sorry if this sounds grumpy (it probably is), but there are more than 900 editors watching this article. Tony Holkham (Talk) 16:32, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
I've added some cites to the Transport and Music sections, which I think deals with the remaining Citation Needed and Failed Verification tags. Is the outstanding concern broadly about the length of the article? Wales's population puts it around the Albania/Puerto Rico mark, both of which have substantially longer articles, 245,347 bytes and 322,351 bytes compared with 209,487 bytes for Wales. I know that's a bit of an "Other stuff exists" argument, but it doesn't seem unduly long to me. That said, I'm sure there's some trimming/combining that could usefully be done. KJP1 (talk) 10:23, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
The article is not over-long by some standards, I agree, though some of the topics that have a main article could be reduced a little as some do "go on" a bit. Tony Holkham (Talk) 10:32, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
Agreed. I've had a go at combining some of the very short para.s and will have a look at doing some judicious trimming particularly, as you suggest, where's there's a corresponding Main article. KJP1 (talk) 10:58, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
There are specific guidelines regarding length and style, Wikipedia:Summary style and Wikipedia:Article size, which are included in the GA criteria. Wales is currently 40% longer than the 60kB of prose probably should be divided threshold. There's room for variation, but given country articles naturally come with numerous subpages, they have easy routes to become more concise.
Regarding citations, there's no tags, but there's clearly areas which lack sourcing. For example, over half of the Music section is currently unsourced. CMD (talk) 12:18, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

“probably should be divided threshold”? Not getting what you mean there. KJP1 (talk) 14:24, 21 July 2020 (UTC) Sorry, on re-reading, I think you’re saying it’s 40% over the threshold at which it should probably be divided. Don’t think I’d agree that it should be trimmed by 40%, nor do I think it infringes the GA criteria by not being. An article on an entire country will likely be longer than an article on a rather more circumscribed topic. As for sourcing, I think you’re probably closer to FA criteria requirements than GA. As a comparison, the USA, another country GA, is a third as long again, with about a third more sources. But there are clearly areas that can be tightened, and more strongly sourced, so we’ll crack on with those. KJP1 (talk) 14:33, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

The most recent featured country article, Bulgaria, is currently at 53kB of prose, so that may be a good example of a country article which meets GA Criteria 3. As for sourcing, GA Criteria 2 is "Verifiable with no original research". CMD (talk) 14:52, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
Note: United States is also undergoing GAR, with multiple editors commenting that its length is an issue. (t · c) buidhe 16:02, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Tony Holkham - Not entirely clear as to how community consensus is reached in GAR but wanted to note that there doesn't appear to be consensus here. The criticism had two limbs - uncited material and length. In my view, the first has been addressed, certainly to GA standards. The second is a matter of opinion, but I think it is clear that two editors, Tony and myself, both of whom contribute extensively to Welsh topics, are not of the view that it is overlong. I've pinged Tony in case I'm not representing his view accurately. KJP1 (talk) 07:41, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't think it is too long, given that sections with main articles could be cut (even more). Tony Holkham (Talk) 08:31, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
The sourcing has improved in my view. On size, criteria 3b points to specific guidelines on the matter. The length is probably related to some minor MOS:OVERSECTIONing in the article. CMD (talk) 12:48, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Was going to close this as keep as while it is still a bit lengthy it probably just meets our requirements. I did make some edits to the article though and after another reading through again have a few more suggestions so thought I would put them here.
    • Shouldn't the Medieval Wales, Norman conquest and Annexation to England sections in history be combined. They cover the same era and fit under the same daughter article. They could then be reduced and summerised better.
    • Modern Wales is a bit too long. It smacks a bit of recentism and doesn't have a main article. I would suggest creating a main article and moving most of the info there.
    • I think the same could be done with climate. There is no main and things like the highest recorded temperature and other misc stats would fit in better if there was one.
    • The culture section is probably a bit bloated. I know it is hard to choose which ones are worth mentioning and everyone has different tastes they want to highlight, but there are main articles for each one so they can be trimmed without any real loss. I am not Welsh so it is hard for me to say what should be featured and what not. I do know a bit about sport and a whole paragraph on rugby and another on football are probably a bit excessive relative to the scope of the article (it also mentions hosting the World Cup twice). Cricket probably doesn't warrant two sentences and Tony Farrs mention seems disproportionate too.
  • Overall I would say as it stands it meets the GA criteria, it could just be fine tuned a bit more. AIRcorn (talk) 00:50, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
Aircorn - Very much appreciate the interest and the helpful comments. I like the suggestions a lot and will look to action them over the next few days. The culture section is tricky, as it is hard to make value judgements on notability between different musicians etc. Just one point of difference - a mere paragraph on rugby is hardly sufficient! Football I know nothing about, but I shall ask Kossack. All the best. KJP1 (talk) 17:44, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
Thanks. If we can get away with a couple of sentences I am sure Wales could too. I don't know if it needs the four professional sides mentioned or the competitions outside the world cup and six nations. Also documenting a two year period of league being professional doesn't seem that relevant. You get a lot of if X is mentioned then we should mention Y. Sometimes it is better to not mention too much of either if we are trying to keep it overviewish (for example I am not sure any sporting person should get explicit mention unless they are extremely famous). For comparison Wales mentions 25 sportsmen (Gareth Edwards doesn't make the cut) while NZ mentions just Hillary. I am not suggesting that this is the blueprint for a country Good Article, it just happens to be the country article I am most familiar with. AIRcorn (talk) 10:53, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Jesper FastEdit

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · WatchWatch article reassessment pageMost recent review
Result pending

The Jesper Fast article lacks details about Fast's career after the 2014-15 NHL season.

Agreed it does need updating; it would be a shame for it lose its status. Main contributor was @Hunter Kahn:, they might be interested in updates. L150 18:10, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the ping Lizzy150, yes I would like to update it. Is there a time limit on when those update could be made now that this GAR has begun? — Hunter Kahn 19:25, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
  • @Hunter Kahn: GAR can be open as long as necessary while improvements are ongoing. buidhe 02:44, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
    • Ok, excellent. It's been a little harder for me to find free time for Wikipedia in recent days, but I have every intention to bring this article up to date as quickly as possible. — Hunter Kahn 13:32, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
      • Apologies for my lack of activity on this; personal circumstances have kept me off of Wikipedia in recent weeks. But I do plan to start working on this in the upcoming days. — Hunter Kahn 20:10, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
  • @Hunter Kahn: I am looking at closing some of these. It has been a while and no progress has been made that I can tell on this article. It will be delisted as it currently stands unless some work is done on it soon. AIRcorn (talk) 01:17, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
    • Apologies that time has just not permitted me to work on this right now. I asked some time ago if anyone at WikiProject Ice Hockey could jump in, but got no response. Given that, it's certainly understandable for Aircorn to delist it, and maybe someday in the future I can update this and renominate it for GA... — Hunter Kahn 12:55, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Alfred DunhillEdit

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · WatchWatch article reassessment pageMost recent review
Result pending

This article lacks referencing and makes unvalidated statements, for example that Alfred Dunhill married his mistress on the death of his wife. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sevenoaks27 (talkcontribs)

  • Keep The article is fully sourced with inline citations. (t · c) buidhe 13:39, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment - The only citations issue I can find is ref 14 is to "Royal Society of Arts archives", which is far from specific enough to be considered verifiable. Looks like it needs a light copy edit, but I don't see anything glaring from a quick glance. Hog Farm Bacon 05:02, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
    • Can't find a mention of this anywhere. There are 27,000 of them so it is not really that notable in any case. AIRcorn (talk) 02:38, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

John Cunningham (RAF officer)Edit

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · WatchWatch article reassessment pageMost recent review
Result pending

The more I look at this article, the more citation issues I find, including claims not supported by sources, and sources which predate the claims they purport to support.

For example, the paragraph:

In his retirement... John Cunningham died six days shy of his 85th birthday in July 2002.

had (until I just tagged it) just one citation, placed after its final full stop: {{sfn|Golley|1999|pp=215–216}}. So that's a 1999 publication which speaks about the subject in the present tense, used to cite his 2002 death.

One 135-word paragraph is cited simply to {{sfn|Golley|1999|pp=171–199}} - that's 28 pages.

Elsewhere, we had a 23 August 2012 press article, talking about a forthcoming event, falsely cited as having a September 2012 date, and used to support a claim about the auction price paid at a September 2012 event.

Unfortunately not all of the sources cited are online, and the Internet Archive's copy of John 'Cat's Eyes' Cunningham : the aviation legend that is heavily cited is missing several of the pages cited (e.g. page 24).

Though a secondary issue, the article's prose is also clumsy; see recent edits for some fixes, but they do not address all of the issues. For example:

Attempting his usual tactic, the British crew approached from behind and below. Suddenly the Heinkel lurched into a tight left-hand turn allowing the gunners to fire a broad-side.

The listing of every crew member of a German plane shot down by the article subject is also probably not necessary.

On top of all this, attempts to rectify even minor issues have met with edit warring and abuse, as a result of which a block is currently in place.

I leave it to uninvolved editors more familiar with GA criteria to determine how to proceed. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:18, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

  • Ouch! this will need someone to really check more of the citations to fix the failed verification issues. (t · c) buidhe 02:54, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
  • I have been able to cite the dod and the sale price of his medals. In trying to verify the bequeath of his medals to the de Havilland Aircraft Company Trust, I came across the de Havilland museum website which mentions him. There could be a potential copyvio there as the phrasing of the last paragraph of the postwar activities section is similar to the description of the museum website (although it could be because the museum copied the Wikipedia page, not the other way round). Zawed (talk) 07:19, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Do we know what the full details of Thomas 2013 and Hooton 2010 are?Nigel Ish (talk) 18:35, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
    An do we have better details of the Air Pictorial reference - like a title and page range for the article - even if its a news item, it should have a title? I'm also pretty sure that Air Pictorial didn't have anything to do with the Air League of the British Empire by 1992.Nigel Ish (talk) 18:46, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
    "He was promoted to wing commander (war-substantive) on 1 September 1944, serving in a series of staff positions for the remainder of the war.[1]" - while its fine to use the 26 September 1944 as a reference to Cumminiham getting promoted, it cannot be used to describe what he did for the rest of the war, after it was written. (and can someone sort out the London Gazette sfns to give a proper cite, without the &?)Nigel Ish (talk) 09:54, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
  • I've trimmed the mention of staff positions as the next section discusses his roles for the remainder of the war anyway. I also moved mention of the promotion to better put in chronological context. Zawed (talk) 10:42, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
The article is sufficiently sourced. Everything is covered. End of story. There is no copy violation. The museum has used this article. The article has been reverted back to its original state before this nonsense started. If you have any doubts about sources, by all means question me. Dapi89 (talk) 18:22, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
Your claims are patent nonsense, as outlined above. Your revert has been undone, and an admin has blocked you from editing it in future. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:42, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

` Comment Nigel Ish I took "Thomas 2013" to be a typo, and changed it to match the other Thomas references. The Gazette issue can be cured by using the correct template ({{London Gazette}}) instead of {{sfn}}. The Hooton2010 ref is the one causing the ref error issue raised at WT:MILHIST. Mjroots (talk) 13:47, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

The Hooton2010 ref issue has now been addressed. Mjroots (talk) 11:25, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Gazette & 36722.


Forgotten RealmsEdit

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · WatchWatch article reassessment pageMost recent review
Result pending

It is clear that since it was accepted as a Good Article in 2009, Wikipedia standards have changed. The article is full of fictional cruft, with "The World" section being largely in-universe. Much of the "History" section is also just a timeline of releases rather than putting things in context. It strikes me as C-class at most and would need a significant amount of work to reach modern Good Article standards.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 21:15, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

User:Sariel Xilo and I have been working on improving the article; we will see what we can do with it. BOZ (talk) 17:21, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

I had a careful read of the article last night and it satisfies the good article criteria in that it is:

  1. Well written
  2. Verifiable with no original research
  3. Broad in its coverage
  4. Neutral
  5. Stable
  6. Illustrated

If an editor is going to call for a reassessment then one would think it would be incumbent on that editor to specify which criteria the article does not meet, and why. AugusteBlanqui (talk) 09:04, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

  • Delist. 38 of the 77 references in the article—just under half—are primary sources: rulebooks, storefronts, product databases, interviews, and so on. Those sources also tend to get used repeatedly. Plenty of sentences and entire paragraphs, particularly about in-universe subjects and product releases, are entirely unreferenced. This article should be overhauled and based primarily on what reliable, third-party published sources have written about the subject. It's fine to fill in some minor non-controversial details with primary sources, but right now this is more of a Wikia fan page than a Wikipedia Good Article. Woodroar (talk) 12:33, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
I removed a few of the primary sources that were redundant to non-primary sources, and will try to find some non-primary sources to add to what is already there and/or replace more of the primary sources. I also removed some of the unsourced information, particularly the basic listings of products without context. I will see what else I can do with it this morning. BOZ (talk) 14:08, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Some work has gone into the article over the past month. Does anyone have any suggestions on what else needs to be done as far as improvements? BOZ (talk) 22:16, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

There are still huge sections of text in the Creative origins and Settings sections supported largely by primary sources, and much of the Publication history section is supported by industry sources. I also see a handful of "academic" sources that are cited here but essentially nowhere else online, including by other reliable sources. Are there actually so few truly independent sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy? Woodroar (talk) 23:09, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
Fair enough; I accept that this one is probably beyond my ability to fix at this time or in the foreseeable future. BOZ (talk) 23:57, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
It's a bummer, to be sure. I've loved the setting ever since I got the 1987 "Grey Box" a few years after its release. I've been looking for sources and it seems like the renaissance we're in has improved mainstream coverage of the game itself, but it's all surface-level coverage that ignores the settings. Woodroar (talk) 00:37, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Liquid fly-back boosterEdit

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · WatchWatch article reassessment pageMost recent review
Result pending

Good article with unsourced statements. It has, or needs, cleanup banners that are unquestionably still valid. These include {{cleanup}}, {{POV}}, {{unreferenced}} or large numbers of {{citation needed}}, {{clarify}}, or similar tags. (See also {{QF}}). I suggest delisting this article. --Soumya-8974 talk contribs subpages 09:18, 29 July 2020 (UTC)


Sathi Leelavathi (1936 film)Edit

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · WatchWatch article reassessment pageMost recent review
Result pending

The article failed it's most recent FAC, with one of the detractors (Laser brain) saying he would reject it for GA status, proving how terrible the article is. While there will never be another FAC attempt at this article by me, I will nevertheless be satisfied if it at least maintains GA status. Because factual accuracy and coherence matter more. --Kailash29792 (talk) 09:30, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Comments from Mike ChristieEdit

I'll leave notes here as I go through the article; if I make any copyedits you disagree with please feel free to revert them.

  • What is a "mock tea party"?
  • Krishnamurthy's acquaintance Ramanathan persuades him to drink alcohol: it's apparent from the rest of the plot that it Krishnamurthy's later consumption of alcohol that's the problem, so does Ramanathan persuade Krishnamurthy that he should no longer abstain from alcohol? So that he starts to drink from that point on?
  • Ramanathan's collaborator is Rangiah Naidu, a corrupt police inspector. "Collaborator" doesn't have the right connotations for a partner in crime. "Accomplice" might work, but it would help to know why we're using the word. Does Rangiah do anything at the party to help persuade Krishnamurthy? Or is this only a reference to the later plot elements? Does Krishnamurthy's infatuation with Mohanangi start at the party? Is it because of his drinking, or is it instigated by Ramanathan or Rangiah?
The English plot doesn't get into detail. But I've written that Rangiah was Ramanathan's accomplice since the Wiktionary definition of the word reflects what happens in the plot. --Kailash29792 (talk) 11:26, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
  • sinking Krishnamurthy deeper in debt: we haven't said he was in debt; presumably he doesn't have the money he promises to Mohanangi? Or he goes into debt to get it?
  • Why does Krishnamurthy return to Madras, knowing he's likely to be arrested? To see his family? If he tries to do so surreptitiously I think it would be worth saying.

More later. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:42, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

The complete plot in both English and Tamil is here, free for access. You may do proofreading if you need to. Though the Tamil plot is more detailed, I haven't added much from it, except the revelation that the killed man was the servant, and the killer was Ramanathan who framed Krishnamurthy. --Kailash29792 (talk) 11:26, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
I'll look this evening. That's a beautiful first page! I assume it's under copyright and we can't use it? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:34, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
I don't think it is copyrighted in India per Template:PD-India. --Kailash29792 (talk) 11:51, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
Up to you but I think it would look good in the infobox; you could move the theatrical poster further down. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:49, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
Re the plot: I see we're hampered by the limitations of what the source gives us. If we can't explain what a "mock tea party" is we should either put in a footnote saying so or remove the phrase. Currently the lead says Ramanathan teaches Krishnamurthy to drink at the party, which I don't think is explicit in the source. "Accomplice" is fine since it's clear that Rangiah and Ramanathan planned Krishnamurthy's downfall before the party. How about this as a rewrite of the first paragraph of the lead: "Krishnamurthy is a wealthy man who lives in Madras with his wife Leelavathi and their daughter Lakshmi. Ramananathan, a friend of Krishnamurthy's, and Rangiah Naidu, a corrupt police inspector, plot together to ruin Krishnamurthy. Persuaded by Ramanathan, Krishnamurthy begins to drink alcohol, and becomes infatuated with Mohanangi, a promiscuous woman, promising to pay her ₹50,000 (about US$18,700 in 1936)." Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:49, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Mike Christie, wrote exactly this way. Only, I wrote the correct spelling of Ramanathan, not "Ramananathan". Kailash29792 (talk) 13:27, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

More:

  • I'm interested by the division of three "Comedians" from the rest of the cast. Is this standard in cast lists of the era?
I'm not too sure about that, but I do know that male actors and female actors were divided in Indian film credits even in 1966 (eg: Anbe Vaa). But I've divided based on the pressbook that I shared above. Even Gone with the Wind divides it's cast into multiple columns. --Kailash29792 (talk) 11:51, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
Struck; I was curious to know if there's a reason for separating the comedians, but since the source does it that way it's fine. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:52, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Pathi Bhakthi, a Tamil play dealing with alcohol abuse and its effects on family life, was written by Te. Po. Krishnaswamy Pavalar during the early 1930s: the source for this says "It was in the early 1930s that a play titled Pathi Bhakti enjoyed a long run on the stage. A play about the evils of drinking, it had been written by a well-known playwright, Te.Po. Krishnaswamy Pavalar." which only says the play was successful in the early 1930s, not that that's when it was written. Per this source it was published in March 1931, though I'm relying on Google Translate there and may be misinterpreting.
    Looking at Guy, I think a couple of changes would be worth making. Guy doesn't contradict the March 1931 date from the other source, so we can use that. It's also apparent from Guy that the rewrite for MOBC is just for the run in Madras itself, at the Wall Tax Theatre. (And I wonder if the Wall Tax Theatre is worth a red link? It seems to have been famous.) So saying "this production was also successful" is slightly misleading; the production was just part of the overall success of the play in the Madras Presidency; it's singled out because that's the troupe that got involved in producing the play. When Chettiar found out that MOBC was working on a film version, he talked to Mudaliar who directed him to Vasan. It's a pity about the contradictory sources on who was making the other film, since that makes it harder to make it clear to the reader what the sequence was. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:48, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Pavalar's play was rewritten for the Madurai Original Boy's Company (MOBC) theatre troupe by playwright Madras Kandaswamy Mudaliar: I don't have access to Guy (1997), so can you just confirm that it says Mudaliar rewrote the play for MOBC? The other source seems to imply it was the original play.
Here is access to select pages from Guy's book, free for viewing, and all pages containing Sathi Leelavathi are in it. --Kailash29792 (talk) 11:51, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
Thanks -- that's very helpful. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:48, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
  • The film was Dungan's directorial debut, and was later listed in the Limca Book of Records as the first Indian film to be directed by a foreigner: I copyedited this slightly, but on reflection I think it might be better to just make it "The film was Dungan's directorial debut, and was the first Indian film to be directed by a foreigner". I take it the Limca Book of Records is a reliable source? If so we can just cite the statement to it.
Do as you please. --Kailash29792 (talk) 15:06, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:27, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
  • The case was resolved when Vasan testified that both Pathi Bhakthi and the novel Sathi Leelavathi were based on Ellen Wood's 1860 novel Danesbury House, therefore neither party could claim originality.: I've copyedited this a bit but I an wondering if the last clause would be worth expanding. It's an interesting point because perhaps one could say that both Pathi Bhakthi and Vasan's novel were plagiarized, if neither is original. Does the source give more details about Vasan's testimony or the reasoning of the court in dismissing the case?
Nope. And I'm not sure even the Madras High Court would have documents related to the case. But since I have no future FA plans for this article, I don't this case needs further digging, right? --Kailash29792 (talk) 15:06, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Struck; if the source doesn't discuss it that's fine. Re plans for FA: I'm not commenting with FAC in mind, just trying to identify places where we might be able to improve the article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:29, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
  • in particular the plight of Tamil Nadu labourers in Ceylon's tea estates: I'm not sure about this, but just a suggestion: the plot summary only mentions this in passing, but it appears that some commentary on the film regards this as an important aspect of the film. Would it be worth expanding the brief mention of this in the plot a little?
It appears this was shown on film to a larger extent than what was shown in the pressbook's English synopsis. --Kailash29792 (talk) 15:06, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Suggest adding the character names to the caption of the still from the film, or at least making it clear it's a still (or is it from a poster?).
  • Ramachandran appeared in Pathi Bhakthi as the antagonist's henchman Veeramuthu: might be worth making it clear this is the MOBC stage version we're talking about, since the reader might well assume it's the film version until the second half of the sentence.
  • He later approached Mudaliar for a role in Sathi Leelavathi because he felt his role in Pathi Bhakthi offered him "no room to shine". I don't see the connection here; perhaps understanding the timing better would help. I assumed that the stage run of Pathi Bhakthi was over by the time the film was being made; were both going on at the same time? I see from another source that the timing was pretty quick -- Vasan's novel comes out in early 1934 and shooting on both it and the film version of Pathi Bhakthi starts in 1934. The delay in release till 1936 is just because of the lawsuit, I gather. So was Ramachandran acting in both at the same time? It's a minor point if the sources don't say but it wasn't till I looked closely at it that I realized how quickly it was all happening.
I don't think shooting started in 1934, since Dungan came to India in 1935 and Chettiar bought the film rights to the novel the same year. --Kailash29792 (talk) 11:51, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
This source says shooting on both films started in 1934, but I don't know how reliable that source is for that sort of detail. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:52, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

More later, probably tonight or tomorrow morning. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:30, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

I'll get back to this but I've been asked to have a look at FAC and will do that next as it's time-sensitive. I should be able to get back to this this weekend, possibly even today. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:52, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Continuing:

  • Perhaps not an issue for the article, but why does Guy refer to Krishnamurthy as Radhakrishnan?
Simply put, a mistake. Not using the Radhakrishnan name (it was Radha's real name though). --Kailash29792 (talk) 15:06, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Is it "Pasaruraman" or "Parasuraman"? Looks like the latter, but you have one instance of the former spelling.
Typo corrected. --Kailash29792 (talk) 15:06, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Ellis Dungan's autobiography is listed as 2001, but our article on him lists it as 2002. A quick look on the web supports 2002; can you check the copy you have to confirm the date?
  • I've copyedited the section on acting a little but I think that paragraph could be reorganized -- the sentence about the actors freezing comes between two sentences about the effects of being theatre actors. How about this: "Most of the cast were theatre actors and Dungan later recalled that he had to tell them to soften their voices and tone down their facial expressions. This included Ramachandran, who according to Dungan did not initially understand the nuances of film acting and performed aggressively as though he was on stage until Dungan convinced him to deliver his lines naturally. Dungan also recalled the actors freezing and forgetting their lines in front of the camera, which frightened them."
Looks good to me. But I don't think the actors forgot their lines, as Dungan said in his autobiography, "Also some of the actors had never appeared in front of a motion picture camera before and it frightened them, whereupon they would often ‘freeze’ and couldn’t speak". --Kailash29792 (talk) 15:06, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Fair enough. How about "Most of the cast were theatre actors and Dungan later recalled that he had to tell them to soften their voices and tone down their facial expressions. This included Ramachandran, who according to Dungan did not initially understand the nuances of film acting and performed aggressively as though he was on stage until Dungan convinced him to deliver his lines naturally. Some of the actors were scared of the camera, and Dungan recalled them freezing in front of it, unable to speak." Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:33, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
Wrote exactly this way. --Kailash29792 (talk) 12:13, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
  • With this film, Dungan introduced many features to Tamil cinema such as a lack of on-screen stage influences, the "cabaret dance" or the "club dance", strict discipline, filming by schedule and camera mobility. Could this sentence be expanded a little to give more details? I've no idea what a cabaret dance or club dance is, for example, or what is meant by "strict discipline". Some of these sound like significant points in the evolution of Tamil cinema and a bit more space would be worth it.
  • It was not until I read the last chapter of "Filming" that I realized there were songs in the movie, but I see from the "Music" section that there were about a dozen. That makes them a significant part of the movie; shouldn't the songs be mentioned in the lead? Did all Tamil movies of the day include songs as a matter of course?
More than 90% of Indian films have songs in them, most not relevant to the plot. And I don't think music was a defining point of the film. I read somewhere else that the film was praised for having fewer songs than other Tamil films of the time. --Kailash29792 (talk) 15:06, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
I thought I recalled something like that. I agree no special mention should be made, but on the basis that the lead is a summary of the article, a short sentence in the lead seems appropriate. How about just mentioning who the lyricist was, and that it was his debut in cinema? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:45, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
  • The melody of "Theyila Thottathle" (also spelt "Theyilai Thottatile") is based on Subramania Bharati's poem "Karumbu Thottathile". I don't follow this; how do you base a melody on a poem? Did "Karumbu Thottathile" have a melody associated with it?
  • While the poem is about the plight of bonded Indian labourers in Fiji, the songs's lyrics follow the problems of tea-plantation workers in Ceylon. Did Bhagavathar adapt the lyrics -- that is, just change a few words to make them refer to Ceylon -- or did he write completely new lyrics?
Not sure. Though I'm a native speaker of Tamil, I did not live in Tamil Nadu for most of my life. Hence, I am unsure of how Subramania Bharati's poems have "official" melody versions. This source says, "The poet had composed ‘Karumbu Thottathile’ which was on the plight of bonded Indian labourers in Fiji. This was changed to ‘Theyilai Thottatile,’ depicting the problems of the tea plantation workers in Ceylon." --Kailash29792 (talk) 15:06, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
The source ([1]), in Google Translate, refers to "songs" not "poems"; is it just that the translation should be "song"? The source talks about Bharati's songs being sung on stage, and the melodies being popular, so "poem" seems wrong. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:45, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
There is no error by Google Translate, the source indeed describes "Karumbu Thottathile" as a song. Written likewise. Kailash29792 (talk) 12:13, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Sathi Leelavathi had a "trade show" debut in Madras on 1 February 1936, and was theatrically released on 28 March that year. A trade show is a showing of a film to people in the trade, usually so reviewers and critics can get an early look. I think we could write this more naturally as "Sathi Leelavathi had a trade screening [with a footnote if you think it needs explanation] in Madras on 1 February 1936...". We'd need a source for the definition and a quick look doesn't find one in Google Books, so if you want to make this change I'll look a little further. Also, I see that this source, which you cite for the trade showing, says the picture was release on February 1; the trade show must have been the day before, or earlier, and I think we should mention, perhaps in a footnote, that a contemporary source says it went on release on February 1, not March 28.
I pondered over this for a long time, but kept quiet due to lack of sources. It remains a mystery how the film released on March 28, almost two months after the trade show. But based on the Indian Express article, I guess we can ditch the March 28 release info altogether and agree that February 1 is the official release date. What do you say? --Kailash29792 (talk) 15:06, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Yes, I think that's a good enough source -- it's scarcely even a future prediction; the release happened the day the paper came out, and pre-screenings were often just one day before public release, in order to get reviews into the papers for the day of release. You could link "trade show" to Film_screening#Critic_screenings. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:38, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
  • At the time of its initial release, critics praised most aspects of the production, including the direction, photography, sound design, and writing. This doesn't seem well-sourced. One source is the press book; the other just says "The photography and recording are sound and the acting is generally satisfactory"; this is hardly "praise". (The same comment applies to the source for "The acting performances also received generally positive response from critics."). The press book does include positive comments, and I don't think we have any reason to doubt that they're accurate transcriptions, but the press book would exclude any negative comments so we can't use it to say the response was positive -- that would have to come from a source like Guy. Would any of the original sources be available from a library? It would be great to obtain the original reviews of any of these, though I imagine that's unlikely to be possible.
The critical reception summaries, which were not added by me but Numerounovedant, may be removed since I agree with you that there seems to be some form of censorship, given that the pressbook seems like WP:PRIMARYSOURCE (please don't say the pressbook should be outright removed). I think The Hindu's original review remains, as a snippet from it is mentioned here. But I'm not sure if they took that from the pressbook. --Kailash29792 (talk) 15:06, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
The pressbook is fine, we just need to make sure that the reader understands that the review information we have comes from PR for the film. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:38, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Stopping there for now; should be able to finish this pass later today. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:16, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments, they are greatly appreciated. While FA is not a possibility, this article maintaining GA status with acceptable prose and zero blatant factual errors is enough for me. If you feel statements attributed to Memories of Madras (Guy, 2016) need proofreading, here are the pages free for viewing. But much of the content is the same as in Starlight Starbright. Kailash29792 (talk) 15:06, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Kailash29792, I've been reflexively reviewing this article with the same rigour that I would at FAC -- probably because that's where I started looking at the article. However, this is GAR, not FAC, and I should let you know what I think the status is according to the GAR requirements. The only remaining point that I think needs to be addressed for GA is to make it clear to the reader that the press opinions are taken from PR material and so cannot be assumed to be representative.

I think this is only the second of your articles I've reviewed at FAC; I hadn't realized you were working on early Tamil cinema. It's an interesting topic. If you plan to bring any other articles to FAC, and would like me to comment before the FAC, let me know and I'll try to find time. I think this article could easily make it to FA too, though it sounds like you're no longer interested in pursuing that. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:47, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm still watching this; just to repeat myself, are you really only interested in having this reassessed for GA? If so just make it clear about the pressbook and I'll pass it. I'm happy to provide more feedback if you want, but it's not necessary just to retain GA. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:03, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
Mike Christie, after reading your comments, I reconsidered. An FAC might still be possible, but I intend to solve Laser brain's comments before that (seen here and here). While I'm not sure if he is still active, do you think his comments have been solved and this can go straight to FAC? If they have been solved, I'd say yes, only the "Reception" part needs restructuring. Can the section be restored to as it was here, before Numerounovedant edited it? Kailash29792 (talk) 04:50, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
Glad to hear you want to go back to FAC. I'm out of time this morning, but I might be able to look at the reception section again tonight. I gather Laser brain is limited in his ability to edit by the COVID pandemic; I'll take a look through his comments when I can and give you my opinion but it would be good to get him to look through again too. In the meantime I'll go back through my comments above and strike everything that you've dealt with. I think there are some points you haven't yet responded to above? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:50, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
I looked at the edit to the reception section, and I think that section still needs work. I'd be willing to have a go at rewriting it, but I don't think I should do that during a GAR. I suggest you add to the top of the reception section a simple statement such as "All known contemporary reviews are from a press book advertising the film. There may have been negative reviews, but if so they have not survived." That warns the reader sufficiently. Then I'll pass this as surviving GAR, and we can resume work on the article talk page. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:04, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
Mike Christie, sorry for the delayed response. I have added your suggestion – not in the main text, but as a hidden comment because it sounds opinionated. When you have time, can you re-review the article and say if the GAR can be closed? Kailash29792 (talk) 04:02, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
I think what's needed is to let the reader know that the surviving reviews may not be representative, so a hidden comment, while helpful to editors, isn't really enough. Is there another wording you'd be OK with? This is the only thing holding up the GAR from my point of view. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:23, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Kailash29792, just checking in -- I've been working on Manilal Dwivedi so haven't looked in here in a week or so, but it looks like there'll be a pause in activity on that article so I can come back here if you still are interested in working on the article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:46, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
Cyphoidbomb, your opinion is welcome here, given your expertise in keeping/removing critical reception summaries. Once that is settled, the GAR may close. Mike Christie, once the GAR closes, you'll help me solve Laser brain's comments? One of them is reading the offline English sources which I can give you for free. Kailash29792 (talk) 12:20, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
Yes, I should be able to help. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:26, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
This is maybe a bit beyond my area of expertise. We typically don't include disclaimers, but there might be a way to incorporate something that explains the situation without sounding so disclaim-y. My recommendation is to ask at WikiProject Film to see what they'd recommend. Something like: "I'm writing about a film from 1936 and want to get it to GA/FA level. While there I haven't been able to find a lot of press coverage that summarises overall critical response or that even presents a selection of good/bad reviews, I have found some review excerpts published in the film's press book. Naturally, these are probably cherrypicked for their bright hue. Any tips on how these could be used while still maintaining a neutral point of view? Should some language at the top of the critical response section be included, to the effect of: 'All known contemporary reviews are from a press book advertising the film. There may have been negative reviews, but if so they have not survived'? Should I do something else? Thanks." (Cynic's pro-tip: Try not not to mention India right off the bat or nobody will respond...) Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:19, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Kailash29792, I decided to go ahead with a slightly modified version of the suggested sentence, and will go ahead and close the GAR. I have a couple of other reviewing obligations but if you're still interested in taking this back to FAC I would be willing to work with you on it when I get time. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:21, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Passing GAR; article retains GA status. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:21, 5 September 2020 (UTC)


Sorry (Madonna song)Edit

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · WatchWatch article reassessment pageMost recent review
Result pending

There are several issues with the article which impacts its GA status, and its FT status by extension. Just by reading through WP:GAFAIL, the article immediately fails criteria 3, which contains a cleanup banner for a single WP:USERGEN source which has not been addressed in over 2 years. According to WP:GACR, there are a significant number of requirements which had not been thoroughly addressed in the previous review while skimming through the article:

  • GA1a: There are quite a few copyediting issues in each section which could be addressed at WP:GOCE.
  • GA1b: The lead section does not include any citations unless the information could be challenged per WP:LEAD. It is also not concise, with information about the remix and Madonna's greatest hits album not necessary for inclusion. The genres in the infobox are unsourced and need to be stated in the composition section; citations are also not used in the infobox and should instead be expanded in the above section.
  • GA2a: Ref [1] does not list Virgin as a publisher in the parameter; source is also not archived. The Credits and personnel section is also unsourced.
  • GA2b: Ref [4] is from Madonna's own website, while ref [63] is from a Madonna fan site, which is an WP:ELNO.
  • GA2c: Ref [45] uses MTV as a source to describe the plot of the music video, which is considered WP:OR. The source also redirects to the main page.
  • GA3a: The Background section seems a bit bare compared to the other sections; maybe use the liner notes from Madonna's album to write about the recording year, as the infobox parameter is unsourced.
  • GA4: The song seems to be placed in a positive light with the lead sentence, "Sorry" received positive reviews from contemporary critics, who declared the track the strongest song on Confessions on a Dance Floor, which is only supported by a single source. Are there no mixed to negative reviews about the song?
  • GA6a: There is no reason why the audio sample and music video screenshot should be included in the article, given that there is no specific commentary or purpose expanding the reader's understanding of the topic. This fails WP:NFCC#8.

Overall, there are far too many issues with the article which would take over a week to address, considering the original user is indefinitely blocked. In addition, after looking at several articles at Wikipedia:Featured topics/Confessions on a Dance Floor, there are several unsourced track listing sections in each song article. I am asking for a community reassessment, as I have only briefly skimmed the article without checking every source's validity, considering the main editor was blocked for fabricating information. As much as I would like the FT to remain, the majority of articles need to be reassessed. — Angryjoe1111 (talk) 08:25, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

  • I was the original GA reviewer (2009). As one reviewer to another, I recommend applying the criteria only insofar as they are stated for the purposes of determining pass/fail. Several of the above points exceed the GA criteria. The scope of GA1a is "clear, concise" prose with correct spelling/grammar. If there is a sentence that is not understandable, it would be appropriate to highlight it here and to see if someone can figure it out. However, getting a copyedit from GOCE is not a requisite of achieving or maintaining GA status. Similarly, the GA3a threshhold is "broad", not comprehensive. What "main aspects of the topic" do you believe is missing? Also, on GA2b, the Madonna source is being used to reference a quote from Madonna so I'm not following how that is a violation of inline citations must be from reliable sources. And on GA2c, WP:OR is about referencing WP material with your own research or providing subjective analysis that is not in the cited reference (e.g. this tune is catchy), but describing the video (e.g. Madonna standing in front of neon lighted screen) is in line with MOS:PLOT. I'm not following your point on GA4...are you asking us or telling us this article is purposefully ignoring mixed to negative reviews? If there is negative criticism, please bring it forward so it can be included. Can you clarify what infobox parameter is not backed up in the Reference section? Thanks. maclean (talk) 05:23, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
In accordance to GA1a, sentences such as Musically, "Sorry" is an uptempo dance song containing layers of beats and strong vocal on the chorus, The song talks about personal empowerment and self-sufficiency, and Alexis Petridis from The Guardian called the song as triumphant. Kitty Empire from the same publication said that "'Sorry' sees Madonna taking a lover to task over an insistent dance-pop rush." could be reworded. The last sentence in particular could be combined into one sentence, considering that both authors write for the same publication, which would be easier to understand. I have not thoroughly gone through the article in great detail in comparison to other GA reviewers, so they may have more feedback to address that I have not caught on to. I am aware that articles do not need to go through WP:GOCE to become a GA, but it is expected that the prose is clear, concise. In response to GA3a, the lead section contains information about the personnel and release date which is not acknowledged in the Background section. The 2005 recording date in the infobox is also not acknowledged anywhere in the article, considering that she could have recorded it prior to that year. Maybe it is best to remove it, as it may be considered WP:OR. In regards to GA2b, the first Madonna source is acceptable as long as there are no other reliable secondary sources that could be used instead, while the second source has been addressed. For GA2c, I am perfectly content with the synopsis following WP:PLOT, but not with each sentence being directly cited by the MTV source, considering that the link is broken and is WP:REPCITE. If possible, I recommend that the section be split into two subsections; Background and Synopsis, so that it would be easier to navigate for readers. GA4 was just a question regarding whether the song has received any criticism, as I have only seen one mixed review in the critical reception section. The lead sentence, "Sorry" received positive reviews from contemporary critics, who declared the track the strongest song on Confessions on a Dance Floor. has only been attributed to the MTV News article, and may be considered WP:SYNTH. Discogs is a WP:USERGEN source that should not be cited for any track listing. Preferably use Template:Cite AV media to find appropriate listings and add any missing formats to the infobox parameter "formats", which I have not seen for the 12-inch vinyl. CD promos are also not used in the section, as they are not "commercial releases" of the song. Finally, both the sample and screenshot should be removed unless there is thorough information that cannot be supported by text alone. Neither explain why both mediums should be included in the article, considering the former does not refer specifically to "synthesized" beats. While some of my above points may barely pass GAC, the articles displayed in Wikipedia:Featured topics/Confessions on a Dance Floor at first glance seem to not be GA worthy, especially Get Together (Madonna song), where the GA review was essentially barren, given that there are more problems there that are glaringly noticeable while scrolling the article, particularly in the music video section which the majority of information sourced is from a fansite, as well as the unsourced track listing and personnel section. Considering that every article was GA'd in four months before being made a FT, and the reason for the nominator's indefinite block makes me doubt the integrity of some sources. While my comments may seem harsh for a GA reassessment, other reviewers at WP:GAN#SONG have made thorough reviews to ensure that each citation style and information in each section is sourced properly. As stated earlier, I have not searched any sources to check WP:INTEGRITY or fix citation parameter improvements, so this article was deliberately placed in community reassessment for other reviewers to discuss. — Angryjoe1111 (talk) 12:17, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Chipotle Mexican GrillEdit

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · WatchWatch article reassessment pageMost recent review
Result pending
  • Nearly all of the "History" section is one-sentence paragraphs reading "In 199x, blah happened. in 200x, blah happened." Literally 90% of the sentences in history begin with "In [year]".
  • Several [citation needed] and [better source needed] in International header.
  • Corporate Management also has several "On X, Y happened. On X, Y happened."
  • I also feel that too much attention is drawn to contaminant outbreaks, giving the article some WP:UNDUE problems. Well over half the article is on outbreaks. Most of these cases don't seem noteworthy on their own.

The article seems like it might still be salveageable with a copy edit and some trimming of fat. It seems like it's suffering from example creep at the moment. Ten Pound Hammer(What did I screw up now?) 17:24, 8 September 2020 (UTC)


Human uses of living thingsEdit

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · WatchWatch article reassessment page • GAN review not found
Result pending

This article was rubber-stamped as a "Good Article" by a now banned sockpuppet. It was brought to our attention by a posting at WP:FTN. While it is not clear to me that the article is promoting any fringe theories, it may be a complete WP:SYNTHesis. Rather than AfD'ing the article, I thought it best to go through reassessment here. Since this is likely to be controversial, I'm opening it to the community. jps (talk) 17:18, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

There is no synthesis here. The sources include broad ethnographic works which describe the full span of human interaction with living things including both practical and symbolic uses. Indeed "culture" as studied by ethnographers, anthropologists and scholars of culture is so defined; this is not the invention of a Wikipedia editor. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:13, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
This may potentially work as a list if you could get some good WP:LISTCRIT, but the sources in the article are not nearly as expansive as the subject presented here. This just isn't an encyclopedic topic. I can find no sources which discuss this idea as broadly as this. jps (talk) 16:40, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
The supposed assessment was incredibly superficial, so much so that I'd recommend delisting as a matter of principle. At the risk of sounding much more blunt than I like to be, I have to admit that I can't call the article as it stands well-written. I keep encountering bits of miscellany that remind me of Wikipedia circa 2004, when everything was just what somebody felt like saying that day. For example: Venus Flytrap, sensitive plant and resurrection plant are examples of plants sold as novelties. Why those three? What distinguishes "novelties" from the "houseplants" of the previous sentence or the "art forms" of the next? Why are the first two items individual species (Dionaea muscipula and Mimosa pudica) while the third is a whole polyphyletic category? And what is the grammar of that sentence trying to be? A little later, we get Major artistic depictions of animals include Albrecht Dürer's 1515 The Rhinoceros, and George Stubbs's c. 1762 horse portrait Whistlejacket. Why those two? What makes them "major"? The source is a "top 10" list on a WP:NEWSBLOG. The "In literature and film" subsection is full of miscellaneous primary-sourced items. Without actual surveys to rely upon, there's no sense of what should be included, or what standard the items that were included are supposed to meet. What makes Middle-Earth, Athshe, and Pandora more important than Barsoom, Camazotz, and the rainforest from FernGully? This is a page of desiccated trivia, not a Good Article. I like the idea of it, but it needs a good spring cleaning and a re-assessment with a more critical eye than the "review" it had before. XOR'easter (talk) 20:28, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
Sadly, knowing the history of the account that reviewed this article, this sort of thing is not surprising. I'm not sure we should even have an article like this. jps (talk) 02:10, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
I'm don't see any issue with having such an article. It seems pretty clearly to be a summary article of the other "Human uses of animal/birds/insects" etc. articles, which makes complete sense and discussing it's notability at GAR is pointless and unproductive – take it to AFD if you want to do that. Sure, the prose could use some tidying and some clarification, perhaps one of the users above could offer to do a new GA review. In being a summary article, exclusion is warranted, an example of every living thing can not be possibly given and while I'm unable to properly speak for the plants, the two paintings mentioned are easily among the most notable depictions of animals. Dürer's Rhinoceros is very famous (and influential), while Whistlejacket is the most famous painting by George Stubbs, who is among the most esteemed painters of animals, and probably the most important for horses. Aza24 (talk) 04:37, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Completeness is obviously part of a GA review. I don't see how such an article could possibly ever be complete. The issue is not about the inclusion of these points, the issue is the exclusion of others since the article is about the human use of living things. It's not an article about the "most famous animal paintings". See the issue? There can't even be a meaningful review. This article can never be good given its framing and ostensible subject. The fact that none of the references even make oblique mention of the idea beyond the few anthropological works cited makes this even more of a problem. It's just a mess. jps (talk) 12:50, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
It's not just that the article is incomplete, but that the current state of it is incomplete to such an extent and in such a manner that reading it is legitimately confusing. (Another example: why mention that William Blake wrote about flowers and not that he wrote, probably more famously, about lambs and tigers? How is a "PoemHunter.com" webpage — tagline, "Flower poems from famous poets and best flower poems to feel good. Most beautiful flower poems ever written. Read all poems for flower" — a reliable source?) The Good Article criteria require that a GA addresses the main aspects of the topic and that it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail. What are the "main aspects" here? And with the focus jumping about and no sense of why the details it includes are the necessary ones, I can't honestly see how the GA criteria are met. XOR'easter (talk) 17:51, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Midge (Barbie)Edit

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · WatchWatch article reassessment pageMost recent review
Result pending

Under Wikipedia:V, I have concerns about the unsourced text in this article. About a quarter of the text is without citations. Furthermore, the sources that do exist include very little real scholarship. It relies pretty heavily on a small number of unpublished websites. I ask the community to determine if this article is still a GA.Tikisim (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2020 (UTC)


Siege of Damascus (634)Edit

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · WatchWatch article reassessment pageMost recent review
Result pending

Besides the fact that this article is tagged with several CN and clarification needed, the dates in the article are disputable. The dispute is noted but I cannot be sure the article is giving weight to the most reliable sources when it comes to the time period of the siege. This Appendix #21 has an analysis of the chronology, but interpreting it is beyond my expertise and I am not even sure if it is the best source. Maybe the dates in this source come from the best sources. Maybe they do not. Please reassess this article. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 02:12, 20 September 2020 (UTC)


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