Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Football League

Including number changes for notable athletes

Hello everyone, with Von Miller recently being traded to the Rams and changing his number, another Wikipedia contributor and myself were in a disagreement about if his number change (he will wear 40 with the Rams after wearing 58 for 11 years with the Broncos) should be included along with the details of his trade on his Wikipedia page (Von Miller). I believe that in cases such as Miller, where he is known as #58 to the NFL community due to his long and successful career in Denver, the number change SHOULD be included in a quick sentence, such as "Miller chose to change his number from #58 to #40, his number at Texas A&M."

This isn't a common issue, as usually number changes aren't notable enough to have to mention, but I think players like Miller are the exception. Denver will likely retire Miller's #58 at some point, making it even more notable that he's now playing under a different number for the remainder of his career. What do you all think? --Porterland (talk) 06:11, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Is Miller really so synonymous with the number 58 that it needs mentioning? For me he's better known by his name. – PeeJay 09:48, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

That's true, I was just thinking it wouldn't hurt to mention, especially since it's a return to his college number. Plus it appears there are a number of other athletes where a recent number change has been mentioned. See Julio Jones, Jalen Ramsey, Marquise Brown, Patrick Queen, Emmanuel Sanders as just a few examples. If there is no explicit reason as to why Miller's number change shouldn't be mentioned, I don't see why not to include a sentence about it, given he's more notable than any of the examples I previously mentioned. --Porterland (talk) 16:06, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

What PeeJay said is pretty much spot on. Players are so rarely known by their number in any sport, with a handful of exceptions (NFL: Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, NBA: Michael Jordan, Kobe). Von Miller is a great player, but his number isn't necessarily attached to his notability. Also, just because other articles mention it, doesn't necessarily mean it's right. And I do believe all those examples you provided where players that changed their number because of the new number rules that took effect this season. Linebackers have been able to wear numbers in the 40s for several years now, he just chose to stick with 58 with the Broncos because when players change their number, they have to buy all the remaining jerseys with the old number which can get expensive.--Rockchalk717 16:23, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

I see no issue with mentioning the number change in a short sentence. Porterland's change was just a minor note, which was not putting undue weight or anything. I don't see why Rockchalk717 is so opposed to it. Natg 19 (talk) 16:34, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

I just explained it. It's rarely notable to mention a number change unless there's some special story behind it and the reasoning Porterland is using for inclusion makes it even less needed. When I think of Von Miller, his jersey number probably isn't even top 10 things that cross my mind about. And to go the other way, he's definitely not the first player on my mind when I think of the jersey number 58 either.--Rockchalk717 16:46, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to it myself, I just wanted to check what the state of play was. How about this: "The number 58 jersey Miller had worn for 11 years with the Broncos was unavailable at the Rams, so he elected to take the vacant number 40 jersey, the same number he had worn in college." – PeeJay 17:01, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

If it's verifiable, I see no reason why a short sentence shouldn't be added. Changing it to match his college jersey number is enough for me, and there's plenty of precedent in articles for short blurbs about why players pick certain numbers. There's also the added piece about the family of Elroy Hirsch giving their blessing to Miller's change since it was formerly Hirsch's retired number. Etzedek24 ^{(I'll talk at ya) (Check my track record)} 17:00, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

That part I'm ok with. As long as it's focused on getting Crazy Legs Hirsch's family's blessing and that it was his college number, I'm fine with that. There's no need to mention 58 was unavailable or anything about that being his number with the Broncos because that aspect to this isn't what's notable. He could have bought the number like Eli Manning did with the punter's number or Chad Johnson did with Aaron Hernandez when he was traded to the Patriots. We need to avoid using "#" instead of the word number.--Rockchalk717 17:19, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Glad we came to a consensus. Thank you Natg 19, PeeJay and Etzedek24 for your input. I'll work on adding a reworded sentence that focuses on Hirsch and his college number. --Porterland (talk) 17:25, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

@Porterland: As am I. The input from the others did definitely help.--Rockchalk717 17:56, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Washington Football Team vs. New York Giants game article feedback

I have just put an article up in the main space for the first time and am looking for feedback. A user has proposed it for deletion because of notability concerns, but I really feel that the game was important even if it was only played during Week 2 of the regular NFL season. As of right now, I would still love to add a game statistics table, some pictures, and fans' reactions to the outcome. However, I want to take the notability concerns seriously and would love to hear whether people agree that it should be deleted! Thank you:) Washington Football Team vs. New York Giants Game September 2021 Pippalenderking (talk) 20:37, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Note There are responses on the talk page for about how the game is WP:ROUTINE. Based upon its current state, I would agree that there is nothing about that game that has any long lasting notability. I applaud @Pippalenderking: for showing enthusiasm and asking questions with (as far as I could tell) a cool-head and a willingness to learn the process. For what it is worth, any editor can remove a PROD tag for any reason. However, it in many cases, opens up the article for WP:AfD, which would likely have the same effect.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 00:00, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

One relevant guideline for games is WP:CONTINUEDCOVERAGE.—Bagumba (talk) 00:16, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

I have formally nominated this page for deletion as it doesn't to fit any notability guidelines since it is primarily routine coverage.--Rockchalk717 04:54, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

I will add that I do also applaud the enthusiasm from @Pippalenderking: this is a really good step to take for feedback on a new article. Unfortunately, it is really hard for regular season games in any sport to meet the notability guidelines for individual games/events/matches, I think the only exception is major events for combat sports (MMA, boxing, etc.) Just so you can get a feel for the kind of regular season games that meet notability, just look at the most recent regular season NFL game to have an article: 2018 Kansas City Chiefs–Los Angeles Rams game. It was a game with 105 combined points (3rd highest in NFL history), only game in NFL history where both teams scored 50+ points, there were 1,001 total yards, zero punts, and a back and forth game that saw both quarterbacks throw for 400+ yards, not to mention it won an ESPY for best game and is regularly called one of the best regular season games in NFL history.--Rockchalk717 05:11, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

@Rockchalk717: Unless you thought it might be notable, it'd have been a more lightweight process to let the WP:PROD play out and see if it was successful.—Bagumba (talk) 06:50, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

@Pippalenderking: You could expand the report of this game on 2021 Washington Football Team season#Week 2: vs. New York Giants. Two or three paragraph summaries of games on team season pages are always welcome. -- Harper J. Cole (talk)

@Pippalenderking: ^^ I second this, season team pages like this are great for short game summaries of regular season games. --Porterland 07:25, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

@Porterland: @Rockchalk717: Thank you so much for your suggestions -- I'll definitely look into that at as an option! I really appreciate you taking the time to offer your advice on the issue! Pippalenderking (talk) 23:27, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

• Comment as an enthusiastic editor, I long for a sense of "completeness" to Wikipedia, but it will never be completed. We have "season" articles for NFL and NCAA FBS, and I think that's a good thing because of the sheer amount of coverage. We tend to not have season articles for FCS, Div II, Div III, and NAIA. A while back I took a stab at creating detaileed season conference articles (with game summaries) for NAIA but darn if it just wasn't too much work and I lost my enthusiasm for it. Sometimes I think it would be best to have a "game article" for every game that we could then link to from other articles (like season articles for both teams, or season articles for a confernece). I even did some game articles that went to AFD and some were kept, others not. All along I question what should be done... then I remember the workload and realize--this is an encyclopedia and not a sports almanac. I applaud the enthusiasm and I encourage a (slightly) different direction.--Paul McDonald (talk) 21:21, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

"Players of note"

I've noticed most NFL teams articles have a section entitled "Players of note". To me, this is odd and uncommon phrasing. Most other articles for American sports teams use "Players", "Player information", or "Notable players". Is this odd wording something the NFL project really prefers, or should it be changed to something less awkward, such as "Notable players"? Thanks. BilCat (talk) 23:23, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

"Notable players" sounds the smoothest to me out of those options. I'd agree "Players of note" sounds a bit awkward. Porterland 23:34, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Is there an NFL team that doesn't have a "ring of honor" or "retired jerseys" or something like that? See Kansas City Chiefs#Chiefs Hall of Fame.--Paul McDonald (talk) 21:25, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

I think every team has some sort of ring of honor or team hall of fame. Six teams have zero retired numbers, but 3 of them are newer teams, Jaguars, Ravens (technically not a newer team but officially are one), and Texans, as well as the Cowboys, Raiders, and Falcons. There are a couple teams without very many retired numbers, the Bengals (who have 1), Saints (2), and Steelers (2).--Rockchalk717 00:57, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Talkpage discussion of interest to the project

Hello all. There is a discussion at Talk:Magic Johnson#Championships as a minority owner that can impact NFL players despite it being Magic Johnson's talkpage. The topic can impact Aaron Rodgers and Russell Wilson's pages currently and potentially sometime in the future Patrick Mahomes. I'd appreciate the input especially since this is a topic that could start impacting more and more pages on multiple projects.--Rockchalk717 22:44, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

Sanity check on user NEWO. Football

Can someone please sanity check the edits being added by User:NEWO. Football, please? See Special:Contributions/NEWO._Football - he seems to be re-writing NFL history, and it's sufficiently blatant that I have to wonder if I'm seeing things. If I'm correct, we're going to need to roll back a huge number of edits. Thanks, Tarl N. (discuss) 03:06, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Yep, unfortunately their edits look like they might be vandalism. For example, in one of the most recent edits, they claim the 2021 New England Patriots are 9-0. I'd imagine a ban on their ability to edit should probably be given ASAP. Porterland 03:20, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. It looks like User:PeeJay has fixed the edits by now. This was so far off the wall I wondered if I was seeing things. Tarl N. (discuss) 03:24, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Requesting page move

Given there is already the List of National Football League annual <STAT> leaders format for list pages, such as List of National Football League annual receiving yards leaders, I am requesting to move List of National Football League rushing champions to a new page with the title List of National Football League annual rushing yards leaders, to make it in line with the other stat pages. DiamondIIIXX (talk) 23:28, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

"Rushing champion" is arguably the WP:COMMONNAME, though, perhaps like List of Major League Baseball batting champions.—Bagumba (talk) 06:47, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

List of National Football League annual receiving yards leaders

List of National Football League annual pass completion percentage leaders

List of National Football League annual receiving touchdowns leaders

List of National Football League annual passing touchdowns leaders

List of National Football League annual interceptions leaders

List of National Football League annual passing yards leaders

List of National Football League annual passer rating leaders

List of National Football League annual sacks leaders

List of National Football League annual rushing touchdowns leaders

List of National Football League annual receptions leaders

I've posted another selection of stat pages (which appear when you search for "List of National Football League annual" in the link wizard) to highlight the consistency of the existing list names, I think it would be worth improving the consistency so it fits with the existing format. Considering no other page has "Stat Champion", I don't think this would be a very contentious page move. DiamondIIIXX (talk) 10:16, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Recent conference championship game articles

Please check out the recent articles being created in Category:AFC Championship Games and Category:NFC Championship Games, starting with 1970 AFC Championship Game and 1970 NFC Championship Game, along with Template:AFC Championship Game and Template:NFC Championship Game. How are we still treating all the conference championship games under WP:SPORTSEVENT? In the past, consensus was to not have them all automatically qualified under the "The final series (or single game) determining the champion of a top league" rule. Only those like 1995 AFC Championship Game and 2018 NFC Championship Game under the "A game that is widely considered by independent reliable sources to be notable" rule, where there is a significant amount of citations beyond outside routine coverage. In other words, is something like Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2019 AFC Championship Game still the consensus? Or should we, for example, allow the creation of all pages up to 2021 AFC Championship Game and 2021 NFC Championship Game by this January 30 regardless? Zzyzx11 (talk) 03:52, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

On first look, I had assumed that these were pre-NFL merger championships. However, these are just "conference" championship games, so it seems to me that these should be reviewed on a case-by-case basis as they are not automatically notable. Natg 19 (talk) 18:05, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

@Rupertslander:, the creator of these pages. Natg 19 (talk) 18:42, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Nomination of 2021 Tampa Bay Buccaneers–New England Patriots game for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article 2021 Tampa Bay Buccaneers–New England Patriots game is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2021 Tampa Bay Buccaneers–New England Patriots game until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.

Natg 19 (talk) 17:57, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Converting to meters from yards

At Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/George Floyd (American football)/archive1, an interesting question came up: the reviewer noted, "at 5 feet 11 inches (180 cm) and weighed 190 pounds (86 kg).— Why have you converted to metric here and nowhere esle, not consistent?" At first take, I'm not sure whether or not we should be converting yards to meters, for instance in the article George Floyd (American football) converting "and averaged 15.2 yards per return as a punt returner and 30.2 yards per return as a kickoff returner" to meters. Thoughts? Therapyisgood (talk) 02:56, 27 November 2021 (UTC)