User talk:Dennis Brown/Archive 31

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Sólo Tú y Yo

Hi, I request that the aforementioned article is deleted, because that does not exist and telenovela is a hoax article, check all references and has the article are false, some are not. The Afd not truly a must see, because there is no soap opera.--Damián (talk) 00:13, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

I also want to add this article, there is no actor under the name of Albion Dauti. The truth is that the telenovela actor and of course there are.--Damián (talk) 00:21, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

• I don't have time to dig up right now, but just send the article to AFD and list the actor in the same AFD. It can get speedy deleted from there and that gives enough time to research by many eyes. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:43, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Media Viewer RfC case opened

You were recently recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Media Viewer RfC. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Media Viewer RfC/Evidence. Please add your evidence by July 26, 2014, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Media Viewer RfC/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. Before adding evidence please review the scope of the case. For the Arbitration Committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 04:10, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks again

Hi Dennis. Just want to thank you (and not for the first time) as I've just found this ANI case. As Baseball Bugs has rightly deduced, it is yet another line in this long-running, tedious, pathetic saga. Sigh! Anyway, all the best. Jack | ^{talk page} 12:26, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Jim Siduri

Don't know how to deal with this guy - I've wasted a lot of time on him already and honestly I think he's wasting his time and everyone else's. We aren't going to change our copyright policy for him. Dougweller (talk) 14:39, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Much of it seems ultimately to be based on promoting an apparently currently non-notable group. It may well become notable, and maybe even large, maybe very soon. Until then, though, ... John Carter (talk) 15:00, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

I left a note on his talk page. My suspicions are pretty obvious. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 16:35, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Don't want to risk outing, so I've sent the three of you an email (probably telling you stuff you already know) — Alan / Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:58, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

• He did get his other accounts blocked: User:Gilgamesh-for-the-World, User:Wiki-proofer-and-tagger and User:Siduri-Project, which shows a lot of interesting history. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 17:06, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

I've left a message on Jim's tp, without prejudice to Boing's email which I was not privy to (no reason why I should have been). --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:57, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. It is interesting that the first 'odd' stuff about Siduri was about a "Church of Siduri", see the first post at Talk:Siduri and these two now reverted edits.[1], [2] We also had an article for a short time called the Church of Siduri, now a redirect to Siduri after my AfD. And an attempt to use a self-published book by one Peter Dyr. Lots of 'interesting' interest in Siduri. Dougweller (talk) 08:33, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Well, it's not really all that complicated. 10 mins of web search seems to demonstrate that he is proselytizing for his movement under the guise of wanting help Wikipedia. All in GF of course, but WP is not the place to do it. Most of the movement seems to be about promoting a certain book and other Siduri merchandise on a 'kind of' online store. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 09:19, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Oh sure, but I was searching on "siduri project" and "church of siduri". What we can find is [3] where he says ". I also run SidurisAdvice.com," SidurisAdvice.com[4] hosts a pdf of Peter Dyr's book & Dyr seems to be behind the Church of Siduri.[5] Both the church site and sidurisadvice.com sell the same products (eg a clock, a mug, etc). Dougweller (talk) 10:45, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Dennis - I wouldn't say for a moment that I am brighter than most (but thanks for the compliment), it's just that I do possibly have rare flashes where I might appear more lucid than usual. In fact every time I go to a meet up or Wikimania, I am actually staggerd by the number of people who have far more clue than I do, and some of them are are only a quarter of my age :) Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 09:54, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

• In my mind, there are several different types of "smart". You are obviously very educated and have good clue. (I see clue as different than "common sense") I'm a horse of a different feather, barely finished high school, an autodidact addicted to learning. The road of life has been long and bumpy, giving me a fair ration of common sense and more than a few scars. Sometimes at Wikipedia, I'm amazed at how many people have exceptional book knowledge yet lack common sense. It reminds me of the short essay I recently wrote, named after my alter ego WP:Farmer Brown. If you haven't read it, you should, it is the kind of thing you would appreciate, Kudpung, and describes the difference between book smarts and "street" smarts. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 10:06, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
• Yeah, I met up with Kudpung once, and I do vaguely remember a lucid moment ;-) — Alan / Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:16, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

I must have been drinking some Thai moonshine ;) Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:20, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Oh yes, I think there were some bottles open :-) — Alan / Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:30, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

You two are in the rare club of Wikipedians I've actually conversed with outside of enwp. Too bad we all live multiple time zones from each other. I have shared some homemade barbecue with Berean Hunter more than once, and had a really nice meal with Dank and his partner just a couple of weeks ago. It would be nice to break some bread with you two as well. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 10:40, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

John and I really enjoyed that, Dennis. - Dank (push to talk) 11:44, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Another two guys I would very much like to meet - c'mon guys, get your tickets booked, Wikimania is only a few days away - (and for me 10,000 miles but I'll be there). Wouldn't miss it for the world even if it leaves me skint for a couple of months afterwards... Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 11:51, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the invite, we're trying to make it happen. - Dank (push to talk) 14:01, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm only a few hundred miles away, but I won't be able to make it for various personal reasons :-( — Alan / Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:06, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

theredpeonofdoom

With reference to .this You have mentioned TheRedPenOfDoom is blunt but a very knowledgeable and capable editor. If he is removing sections, odds are very good that policy is on his side when removing it. I agree with you that he has good knowledge about Wiki rules and policies. But His English is not up to the mark . His choice of words and phrases is not good at all--Enterths300000 (talk) 17:03, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

• You need to look at TheRedPenOfDoom's edits again and make sure you aren't mistaking someone else's edits for him. His grasp of proper English syntax and grammar far exceeds my meager skills. If you think he is making a mistake, you need to provide the diff and exact reason you think the grammar is incorrect, and do so on his talk page. He tends to cut more than add, maybe he made a mistake in grammar due to a technical mistake, but his skills and understanding of the English language are much better than average. I've never faulted his English, just his threshold before achieving the state of grumpiness ;) Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 17:30, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

  For some of us, grumpiness is our natural state. Eric Corbett 17:36, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

  I envy those who are naturally grumpy - it's taken me years of hard work — Alan / Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:02, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

There is good feedback here. I have created the patented Grump-o-meter^TM User:TheRedPenOfDoom/sandbox/grumpy to help me monitor when it is time to step away from the keyboard and go do something actually worthwhile. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:30, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

"Encouragement of personal attacks" section at ANI

Hi. While I agree with your decision and reasoning to block this IP, I do believe they have a valid complaint. The diffs explicitly show that the IP made simple grammar fixes that improved the article but was reverted just because they made the edit. I've dug a little further, and saw some incivility on the IP's part, but the fact remains that the other user walked away with less than a slap on the wrist while the IP was blocked. I'd appreciate it if you could at least give User:AlanS a warning about such behavior? Thanks in advance~ ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 06:44, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

• The problem is that the IP is a long term block evader and not every one of their edits are to improve the encyclopedia. Reverting a block evader is supported under WP:RBI, although it isn't mandatory and I think it is probably done more than it needs to be. This IP has a trail of trolling and edit warring behind them. If you go back far enough, you see the IP was blocked for harassment and edit warring. Honestly, it is difficult to feel sorry for them. I'm aware of Alan, by the way. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 09:24, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 09:30, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

No-one was asking you to feel sorry for anyone. They were just asking you to stop people being relentlessly attacked and harassed for making edits like this one.

Every single edit I've ever made to the encyclopaedia, since the first one I made in early 2004, has been intended to improve it. I'd love to see you find one edit that you think wasn't. For many years I never had a single problem, not a single complaint, not a single revert of my work. Around 2009 this began to change, people began reverting for no reason, leaving snotty messages, mostly using "AWB" and "TW" to do so. Around 2011 it got significantly worse, and these days you can't edit for more than a couple of days without someone reverting for no reason, and then everyone else who happens to pass by piling on with attacks, false claims, article protections, blocks, etc etc. I'm sure you must find it hilarious to be part of this appalling behaviour. I imagine you chuckled like anything while blocking with the false claim of block evasion. I bet you giggled for hours after you acted to prevent my complaint being heard. I bet you even thought it was pretty funny to falsely insinuate that the reversion of my edit to wind wave was fine because of block evasion, while knowing full well that there was no block evasion of any sort. Well, as I've said before, you won't win. You can't win. I am immensely patient, I can get new IPs very easily, and my improvements will be restored in due course. Perhaps in time you'll realise the absurdity of what you're taking part in.

Incidentally I see that you have no particular problem with making personal attacks yourself [6]. 186.37.203.137 (talk) 15:48, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

"Giggled"? Either you don't know me, or you're a fool. If you ever decide to drop the hyperbole and the childish "look at me, I'm a victim" act and instead ask for a proper review without evading blocks, I will be glad to listen, but until then, I have better things to do. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 16:28, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

What fun it must be to be an administrator! Eric Corbett 17:34, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

See Eric, I am no less grumpy. I just work really hard to keep my threshold high. I've spent half the day visiting in the ICU and the other half consoling his wife (he will probably pull through), and both are more family than parents-in-law. Real life has a way of reminding you how utterly inconsequential some "problems" here really are. Fortunately, I haven't lost my sense of humor in all this, however, my bullshit threshold is very low. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 19:56, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Your close

• here

Hi, Dennis, closing the topic was the right thing to do, but your statement is inaccurate. Neither editor has edited since July 14.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:27, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

• Ah, don't know why I read today's date as the 15th. Fixed, thank you. I probably shouldn't even be here, been a rough day. Might just go drink a beer and play my new video game Goat Simulator, which is very good therapy. You are an immortal goat with special powers and the entire theme of the game is to destroy everything (I'm not making this up). Stupid and pointless, like ANI, but more fun. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 20:35, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

The real (scape)goat game is played at ACE, DYK? Start here. Quoting Anna Russell (The Ring of the Nibelungs, "from one ordinary opera goer to another ordinary opera goer"): "I'm not making this up." --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:51, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

To quote the giant computer WOPR in the movie WarGames..."the only winning move is not to play." so I will take that advice to heart, but nixing the beer. Right now, I have my Fred Flintstone collectible coffee mug half full of "apple pie" flavored moonshine (again, not kidding) and I hear a goat calling out to me. See you guys tomorrow.... Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 21:00, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

It's tomorrow, I decided to play, - also mentioned you, well, not exactly you, Dennis, in today's Precious: Visions of Dennis Brown, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:22, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Ping

Hello, Dennis Brown. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

Voceditenore (talk) 08:05, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

I've also sent you a second, follow-up email. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 09:17, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

A year and a half after you opposed my RfA

I am inviting you to leave me some feedback, 18 months after you opposed my RfA. Do you still believe I am not fit to be an admin? Do you believe I have been able to improve past the concerns you have brought up? Do not be afraid of being too harsh, I am specifically welcoming criticism as I believe it is the best way to improve and I am always looking to learn from my mistakes. I am particularly looking for feedback as to whether you have objections to myself lifting the self-imposed 1RR restriction I had agreed to towards the end of my RfA. If you don't have time to comment, don't fret it either, this is nothing I'll lose sleep over. :) ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 19:49, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

• Totally unfit, I have 12 letters into Arb and two to Jimbo right now ;) I will take a look at it later. I think "fit" is a bit harsh, I was concerned about readiness is all. I will save any further comment for that page. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 19:51, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks for the time you take for this. Unrelated note: I am thinking of updating the quote on my userpage, and God knows I have a soft spot for giant dicks (emphasis not mine). ;) ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 20:00, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

User talk:RoryMig

Probably would be a good idea to revoke talk page access. I've never seen posts that bad. United States Man (talk) 19:42, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Really? Never that bad? Really? Anyway, he is on the verge of revoking (and certainly by the letter of the law crossed it), but sometimes letting someone vent for one post can be a good thing (well not a bad thing). --kelapstick^(bainuu) 19:45, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

• I was doing just that and typing it out as you wrote. I didn't extend the block, so we will see what happens in a week. Really, I took away talk page access for his own good, to give him a chance in a week to come back without digging that hole even deeper. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 19:47, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
  • A sound rational for talk page revoking. First law of holes and all that. How did we ever get from BBQ to actually work around here. Oh and by the way Dennis, a while ago I created a custom userbox for just such an occasion. --kelapstick^(bainuu) 19:52, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
    • (talk page stalker) Shame on you, kelapstick.Good King Richard Cœur de Lion was not in the least bit pretentious! "He was also known in occitan as Oc e No (Yes and No), because of his ability to change his mind." Martinevans123 (talk) 22:43, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
      • Soft one minute, firm the next? Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:47, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
        • Great to see your heart is still fine, Dennis. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:52, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

@Kelapstick: Actually, no. I'm sure there have been far worse, but nothing that I've seen. @Dennis Brown: I figured that you had probably noticed. I was just making sure. United States Man (talk) 19:59, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

• Good block. And one of the wittiest block messages I have ever seen. Thank you. --John (talk) 22:33, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

"Just being honest"?! (Here's honest.)

Hey Dennis, I'll say this as politely as I can ... Why don't you just leave me alone, OK? (I've never initiated dialogue with you in any venue recently that I can remember; why don't you follow suit so there won't be any nasty exchanges between us any further? I'd like to say "goodbye" to you, wiki-forever. [The fact you close an ANI thread against Panda, claiming to be "neutral", yet also previously claiming "I just like the guy", as a somewhat recent example, is telling.] I really don't think you have a clue regarding real editor retention, or your own misgivings, but say everything to make yourself "look good".)

Take care and please call your numerous gang members (need I mention them?) off my ass, that you have successfully nominated at RfAs. Bottom line: you're part of the problem on WP, Dennis, fail to see or recognize it, in spite of your professed self-praising/gloating intentions. (When's the last time you didn't say "At my RfA, ..." as example why someone lacking qualifications s/b promoted?) Goodbye and good luck (but seriously, leave me alone, when it's been important, it's been yucky w/ you.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 22:03, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

• Believe it or don't, but I interjected there because I didn't want to see someone come in an throw a sanction on you for violating the iban. It was a very minor infraction but in my opinion it still was against the iban. So I said it was using the softest language I could use and just recommended it stay deleted and everyone go away. I completely believe you when you say you see it as an attack, but that is the problem: the rest of the world would not see my initial post as anything more than I say it is. Ask anyone you want off wiki. And I'm sorry, but you really are too verbose much of the time. I used to be the same way, I completely understand that, but it won't change until you recognize it. It isn't a character flaw, it is just an unfortunate thing for you, as people WON'T read all that. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:12, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Oh bullshit, Dennis. You didn't do me any favors, and stop stroking yourself with false praise. (Your characteristic attribute.) a very minor infraction but you have fucking nothing to say whether or not Sjakkalle's threat of block was valid if I restore or is off-base. (Hello. Content-devoid. There you are.) It wasn't against the IBAN, and you have offered no reason why it was against, I have read the article there very thoroughly. (Your "polemic" and "thought-police" shit is not registered in WP:IBAN, and just BS coming out your mouth according to your fantasies, hello.) I never called any comment you made at the AN an "attack" (did I!?) -- but here you go off with your usual BS and accuse me of same. (You like making shit up, don't you.) Your opinion about "what people will/won't read" is not any truth Dennis, you have no monopoly on truth, you think you do, and that is your ever-frustrating problem and why I can't have anything to do with you and don't want to read your shit to my attention any more. (It's too frustrating, and I'm bound to explode. Not good. [Second request: Leave me alone forever, please. Nothing to my attention anymore. You aren't "uninvolved". And I hate your "help".]) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 22:33, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

I've had dealings with this editor in the past who quite clearly (and according to the WP:POLEMIC he maintains on his up) has an aversion to all things admin - whoever they are, and whatever they do. If he feels admins are ganging up on him, nothing could be further from the truth, but there must be reasons why he attracts attention, action, or comment from admins. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:56, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

• What you are dealing with now is EXACTLY what I was trying to prevent. Call me a dick or whatever, I don't care, but if you can't see that my comment was trying to shut down the discussion before it turned into an examination of your actions, ending with deletions of your pages, then you are truly blind. You call bullshit, but I told you this would happen, and this is exactly what is happening. It was the only possible outcome, you just fail to understand why, so you assign it to abuse, when it isn't, it is a common outcome based on policy, whether you like it or not. Yes, I WAS doing you a favor. You are so consumed with paranoia about admin, you are utterly blinded when one is trying to help you. It is your loss. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 10:54, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/William Tomicki (2nd nomination)

"WP:GNG is about sourcing and significant coverage and there is no indication this criteria has been met." - Actually three Wikipedia volunteers believe otherwise, there actually is independent coverage in multiple reliable sources, evidently. You may disagree it was enough, but then you might have registered a !vote in the AfD instead. Will you please reconsider that at best this is a No Consensus. The Delete vote by MiracleMat should be given less weight since there is no rule that a person can't create an article about themselves (and notably the person ID'd themselves and refrained from participating in the AfD). That leaves 3 Deletes to 3 Keeps. -- GreenC 12:11, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Saying it has passed GNG here is not the same as demonstrating it at AFD. As for voting, I had no interest in the article nor voting on it. Comments like "Keep They do mention him and his creation in various major newspapers." are not convincing as being "mentioned" isn't the same as significant coverage, for example. Another said " That is no reason for deletion. Andrew Harper's Hideaway Report is a comparable site with decades less of a history. " which is an example of WP:WAX, and when he says "Out of 18 sources, there are many WP:RS verifications.", even if I am to take that at face value, that doesn't address WP:SIGCOV. Your vote to keep "Keep as WP:CREATIVE #3, founder and editor of ENTREE travel magazine with 12,000 subscribers and 30+ years old" doesn't address notability because it talks about how many subscribers there are for a magazine that itself isn't demonstrated to be notable. And while I appreciate the passion, that vote is a textbook example of WP:BIG. Plus, you can't use reviews of the magazine as proof HE is notable, via WP:INHERITED.

The SPA claims, vanity claims and the concerns over him wanting or not wanting the article really played no part in the decision. Not all the delete votes were strong, but the initial nomination was and Clarityfiend gave a clear rationale that is policy based, plus others opined as well. As for the possibility of a "no consensus" close, I'm not a fan of using that close unless there is truly no consensus on how policy should be applied, but that is not the case here. In short, the Delete side presented sound reasons to delete, the keep side used a lot of non-reasons to keep and never showed how there really was significant coverage that met the criteria. So while three people did opine to keep, closing isn't about counting votes, it is about determining consensus using policy based comments within the discussion, and in this case, the delete side provided some sound, policy based concerns that the keep voters did not overcome using proof or policy based rationales. Of course, you are free to take this to WP:DRV if you choose and I won't be offended, but at this time, I'm not inclined to change my close. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 12:40, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

"the keep side used a lot of non-reasons to keep" .. actually Keeps all said the same thing: there are sources that pass the notability guideline CREATIVE. I don't think there are any "policy" issues that were brought up in the nom or elsewhere, Notability is not a policy. I'm concerned you gave policy weight to something that is not policy, or don't seem to understand what a policy is. -- GreenC 19:36, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

"Plus, you can't use reviews of the magazine as proof HE is notable, via WP:INHERITED." .. OK that is incorrect. CREATIVE is meant to provide notability to an artist based on their work. That's why it exists, the notability of their creative works make the person notable. Read the guideline more carefully. INHERITED is an essay without consensus, it exists outside the framework of the notability guidelines. Certainly we shouldn't be discounting Keep votes based on an essay. -- GreenC 19:49, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Renewed proxies?

Hi Dennis, hope you can help. Could you check if

• 186.91.67.216 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 186.88.133.142 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

are still proxies, please? We're getting vandalism from them today. —SMALLJIM  12:13, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

186.91.67.216 is an open proxy on port 8080, so I went and changed the block to a year. Oddly, 186.88.133.142 has no ports open even though it is on the same ISP and has a history of being an open proxy. I might have just caught it down, and may check again later after I get back from the gym. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 12:48, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

TVM. I know there's a page somewhere about checking these – I must have a go myself some day. Meanwhile I see that Acroterion has just blocked another nearby one 186.91.64.115 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). Perhaps a rangeblock is going to be appropriate?  —SMALLJIM  12:53, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm operating under the assumption that these are open proxies, but should learn how to check. Acroterion (talk) 12:57, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

The offsite pages that say who is and isn't a proxy really can't be trusted or used. Since I'm using the block button, I want to verify each myself. I scan them using my own offsite server and a script I wrote that hits the most common ports, plus then I manually try those ports for connect (I need to write a script to do that on the remote server, I just haven't gotten around to it and I'm not really a programmer). You can use nmap to scan in Linux, or zengui (a front end for nmap that runs on Windows) but there is some risk that you assume on your own, as port scanning may be considered a cyber attack in some areas, thus you do at your own risk. Plus, the box you scan from could be attacked from someone, which is why I do it on a remote box and not from home. It isn't rocket science, but it is helpful if you are familiar with networking and such. As for a range block, I could probably work one up but I really think it would best be done by someone with CU tools. I don't have the CU bit, so I don't have full access to the information they do, nor the local tools they have. I think you should make a QuickRequest on the WP:SPI page itself, linking them to here and the ANI discussion, and just ask for a range block. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 13:15, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Dennis, that's very useful - for showing that it isn't something I'm likely to to be able to do! Sounds like you've got yourself a permanent job (though wasn't there once a bot that one could submit IP addresses to? It's not ProcseeBot.)

Regarding these IPs, I've investigated a bit and although they're are all from CANTV Servicios, Venezuela, they seem to be in widely separated small blocks, making a rangeblock unlikely to be successful. But I'll ask for a check as you suggest if the activity is renewed.  —SMALLJIM  15:10, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

No no, the CUs have permanent jobs, I just mop up the place and occasionally run the floor buffer. Actually, rangeblocks would probably be effective, for if the whole range is full of webhosts and proxies, you block the whole range. I'm thinking that is the case here, or is at least possible, which is why a CU need to peek under the covers and look closer. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER

Oh, and ProcseeBot almost always catches the obvious stuff, but not all. It has to error on the safe side. It actually isn't difficult to avoid detection, but that is all I can say about that. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 15:28, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

OK, I've posted a quick CU request - feel free to adjust it if there's any important info I've omitted.  —SMALLJIM  16:32, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Looks good, I added a note. That is what the quick requests are for. CUs can see user agents and such, plus just have more experience. I seldom do any rangeblocks that are larger than a /20 (4096 hosts) unless it is pretty obvious. Admin can't do anything larger than /16 anyway (65536 hosts). My experience level is probably in the middle, I'm not an expert, but I know enough to be dangerous ;) Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 16:39, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Clearly I'm not going to be checking proxies if that's what it takes! CU check by all means. Acroterion (talk) 16:50, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks again, Dennis. Hope you're now well-exercised and fed as well as dangerous. That Quick CU section is new to me, so I might make use of it in future. I do avoid requesting CU assistance as much as possible, though – I think the duck is at least as mighty as the log, and the checkusers always seem to me to be rather harassed and over-worked...  —SMALLJIM 

The key is limiting quick requests to stuff like this, where an unusual range block is needed, etc. I was an SPI clerk for a year as admin, and have worked on sock issues for some time. Again, not an expert, but familiar. You are always welcome to drop an issue here if you want an opinion or direction. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 17:12, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Much appreciated. CU later :)  —SMALLJIM  17:22, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

User: Fried Vegetables

Hello Dennis, Could I bring to your urgent attention the user mentioned above. This account appears to be used solely for vandalism and is also offensive in content. Trust you can bring admin action to bear. Regards, David, David J Johnson (talk) 15:07, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Further to the above, this user also appears to be using "Mick twig" as a sock puppet. Regards, David,David J Johnson (talk) 15:07, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

• • Got both of them. Been at the gym, just walked in the door, haven't eaten today, so if you could clean up any edits that need it, that would be wonderful. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 15:16, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Dennis, Many thanks for all your help. Will do a clean-up. Now go and have a meal!! Best regards, David, David J Johnson (talk) 15:29, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Eloquence as administrator

Since it's not clear whether or not you realise this from your statement at the arbcom case, Eloquence has been an English Wikipedia administrator since January 24, 2003, back when adminship requests were granted on the mailing list. While that isn't the current standard, it was the standard at the time, and to the best of my knowledge nobody has lost the admin bits expressly because they did not go through the formal RFA process, nor has their adminship been treated as "less than" the adminship of users who went through the on-wiki process after that. At that time, adminship was done directly through intervention of those who had root access to the servers; there were no bureaucrats - although Eloquence was one of the very first bureaucrats on this project, subsequently resigning in 2005. Risker (talk) 21:36, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

• Thank you for that Risker, I need to update my response as it is my goal to be factually correct. It doesn't change the fact that he acted outside of admin expectations, but it does change a great many other things. I appreciate the candor. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 21:45, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
• That is complete rubbish Risker, as you well know. Those early administrators never went through the RfA process that the WMF now insists on for anyone granted the right to see deleted content. How do you square that circle? Eric Corbett 21:51, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
  • They were handed the bit for the asking, basically. I had asserted that he gave himself the bit, and I was completely wrong in that assertion. It doesn't change the fact that he likely couldn't pass an RFA now (especially after this recent incident), but Risker did me a favor by correcting me, for if part of my statement is wrong, it casts doubt on the rest. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 21:58, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I'm sorry, Eric, but back in those days there were maybe 100-125 active editors, there was no RFA, there were no bureaucrats (a role that was invented because the sysadmins got sick of doing this work), there were no discussion boards (WP:AN and WP:ANI hadn't even been created), and the wiki-en-L mailing list was the primary communication amongst active Wikipedians at the time. Nobody who was granted adminship during that period has ever lost it *because* it was granted during that time. (Several have lost it for other reasons, including inactivity and in at least one case, removal by Arbcom - but there are several admins who got their bit at that time who still remain admins, and no concern about their admin actions have been brought to Arbcom.) These are facts, and history. That we do things differently in 2014 doesn't change the process in January 2003 (it switched to RFA in June 2003). See this page for the history of the original sysoppings. While I don't necessarily agree with Dennis' position on this case, I wouldn't want his position deprecated because of an error. And I'll be honest - I'm pretty sure of the 1400 or so current admins, 80% wouldn't pass RFA again for one reason or another. The RFA of 2014 has very little relationship to administrator ability, possibly even less than the 2003 method. It's just checking off the right items, mouthing the right opinions, and not getting blocked. It has nothing to do with actual ability. Risker (talk) 22:12, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
    • I've refactored my comments, taking that into consideration. I agree that grandfathering is expected and fine, even with its fault, but if he was a crat and did what he did (threaten and have the ability to follow through), he would have been blocked. He doesn't seem to need the bit, and to me, his actions are such that he has forfeited his right to carry it around. I don't expect that everyone will agree, I'm fine with that, it takes all kinds of people and such. I do feel that someone should provide the perspective I'm offering there. As you know Risker, I'm passionate about some things, but I don't comment at Arb any more than I really have to. I don't want to patrol Arb, I don't want to be an Arb. I just felt compelled in this case. Thanks again. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:27, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
      • No worries, Dennis. You know, I remember back in the day where the primary criterion for adminship was "won't break the wiki", and it was handed out in good faith to most who had the courage to ask; even to this day, the vast majority of adminships granted with this low bar caused no problems at all, and I can see only two who were desysopped "for cause" from those old ranks. I still remember the lecture I got when I was granted adminship in May 2008 about not touching the common.js and common.css unless it had been thoroughly discussed in the appropriate forums (i.e., the talk pages of the common.js or common.css page or alternately the VPT) and all implications had been fully understood, and then the appropriate testing done to ensure it was not creating an unexpected effect. Those rules are still in place. They weren't followed in this case. They're there for a reason. I'd rather we deal with the historical artifact of allowing any administrator to access those pages (which was created back when a majority of administrators *were* developers, and the rest would never have dreamed of editing the pages) by creating an appropriate "developer" user permission that requires proven ability to write safe, effective code that does what is intended. If done right, it wouldn't require administrator permission, but would require approval by experienced Mediawiki developers instead. Remember that the majority of Mediawiki developers are volunteers. That would also address some pretty serious security holes that exist at present. One has to worry when an admin's first edit to mediawiki:common.js breaks every existing rule of the page and also doesn't do what the admin intended it to do. I for one don't find it inappropriate that administrators should be actively and thoroughly disabused of the notion that it's okay to add things to that page without being reviewed by any developer other than the creator: nothing else gets into MediaWiki (core or extensions) without at least one other developer approving the change after having thoroughly tested. Risker (talk) 23:14, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

        The rule that wasn't followed in this case, and in other similar cases, is that the WMF has no right to insist on configuration changes to en-wp to shove their poorly tested software down our throats. If they ever start producing decent software then no doubt it will be eagerly adopted, but until then ... Eric Corbett 23:35, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

        • • Eric, I understand your point. At the same time, what happened here was roughly the equivalent of trying to change the direction of a ship by randomly throwing a very large spanner into the engine. It may or may not work, but the chance of doing more damage than achieving the desired result is unacceptably high. In this case, it disabled longstanding user preferences of 14,000 people; just think how you'd react if an out-of-the-way RFC with very low participation had resulted in someone adding code that disabled your preference. Frankly, I can't imagine you being anything less than apoplectic if an admin did that. It was bad code and should not have been added, whether or not one likes the Media Viewer extension. Risker (talk) 23:58, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

            It was clear that the code did more (or less, depending on your point of view) than was proper, but that doesn't excuse the unnecessarily aggressive response from Eloquence. As for your direct question to me, I'd just have to suck it up, just like I have to suck up all the other bullshit around here. And bear in mind that my preferences have effectively been changed several times recently without my approval, not just with Media Viewer. Eric Corbett 00:06, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

• • • • • • • • (edit conflict) Actually, I installed Pete's code in my own common.js as soon as I saw it. [7] It is still there. So the code was good, but not for the entire site as it took away everyone's ability to enable that viewer. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:09, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

You could have just unchecked the "Mediawiki Viewer" in your preferences, which would have the same effect without increasing your javascript load (means slower loading) or risking poor code interaction amongst your various javascripts. But each to his own. Risker (talk) 00:27, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

It was easier to use Pete's kludge at the time, took 5 seconds. I finally found that option in preferences, which isn't organized as well as it could be. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:41, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. There's currently a RfC going on about this (link) if you'd like to comment. Legoktm (talk) 04:13, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

• • • • • (edit conflict) Then those probably should be out of reach for admin, honestly. If we do have access, it is reasonable to think that consensus matters. I don't question that Pete erred either, we all do sometimes. My concern was Erik making the rest of us admin look even more abusive, and it having a chilling effect. The more power you have, the more responsibility you have to not do things like that. YOU know that, you were an Arb, you had to bite your tongue because the power in your words was greater by virtue of your office. I'm sure there were plenty of times you would have loved to tell someone to STFU, maybe even me, but you had the good sense to match your responses to the actual event. Erik's "power" is off the charts compared to an Arb, I'm just asking for accountability equal to the actual bits he has. And I just want to make sure it isn't completely overlooked. I started in 06, and yes, it is a different place. I think the early adopters were more likely to be experts at something, so the average skill set is reduced now, but that is normal for any project. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:37, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

          Exactly the same thing could be said for that edit filter right. By what logic are all administrators assumed to be competent in the use of regular expressions? Eric Corbett 00:14, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

          • • To edit the abuse filter requires a special bit that is different from the admin bit. To get the abuse filter, you have to be an admin and give yourself the bit, like I did, although I've yet to really dabble. Not much protection, but a little. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:17, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

              So by "not much protection" you really mean "no protection". Eric Corbett 00:24, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Ironically, I too have abuse filter permissions, even though I couldn't code my way out of a paper bag. I wouldn't dream of touching any of the filters themselves (this is called self-discipline), but I need the permission in order to do suppressions on filtered content. Risker (talk) 00:31, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)Shucks, when I saw this title, I thought it was going to be about what an eloquent administrator Dennis is! --MelanieN (talk) 22:47, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

• • Very clever, but unlikely ;) I've been busy ruffling feathers lately. And you never need to use the TPS template, you have your own reserved parking space on my talk page. Those are as rare as they are in downtown Tokyo. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:53, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

School AFDs

Hello. You have a new message at Kudpung's talk page. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:29, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Cupcakepower

Insert this between your ears. Poveglia (talk) 04:35, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

School AFDs

Hello. You have a new message at Kudpung's talk page. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:31, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

I hope you are still following that discussion - my diplomacy is starting to get stretched. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:12, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

• I have a busy day, just checking some basics here (what is the deal with the cupcake above? I doubt good things, but I digress....). I don't see any issues with the conversation, just a little heat when you thumped Cullen a bit. We need to make another go at creating a Guideline for schools I think. Strike while the iron is hot. Simple, easy to understand, short and sweet. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 11:42, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

*It was in response to that. I am not sure if you guys say the same in English, but over here you can say "put this in the hole between your ears", which is a funny way of saying: eat this. Poveglia (talk) 16:26, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

I thought that might be what you meant, but wasn't sure. Thank you? Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 16:42, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

You should probably start worrying when someone tells you to put it in a different hole! ;-) Poveglia (talk) 17:28, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

This is true. I was worried you were saying I had fluffy frosting for brains, however. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 17:46, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

If you would have fluffy frosting for brains then adding a cupcake (through your nose?!? any other options?) would seem quite pointless to me. But "your skull seems empty, so here is a cupcake you can store inside it" would be an awesome insult! Conventional zombie movies are quite boring to me, maybe cupcakes can help... Bad admins do not get extra cupcakepower when they need it, they get demoted. If you know anyone here with fluffy frosting for brains then let me know and I will ask the community to get rid of them. Poveglia (talk) 18:28, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Deletion review for William Tomicki

An editor has asked for a deletion review of William Tomicki. Because you closed the deletion discussion for this page, speedily deleted it, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the deletion review. GreenC 14:16, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ohev Shalom Talmud Torah Congregation of Olney

Hi, Dennis. Any chance you might take a look at the above AfD and snow close it if you feel that's appropriate? The nominated article is about a temple spun off a truly notable one and the only voter proposed merging back to the parent temple. I concurred as the nominator. John from Idegon (talk) 18:42, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

•  Done Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 19:33, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I have a headache from recent AfD's I've been involved in so thank you very much. John from Idegon (talk) 21:34, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Request permission to file SPI

I have to get an admin to review the evidence first and to get permission to file a SPI report according to an admin who previously left a comment on my talk page.[8] I request permission to file a SPI report. Here is the evidence. QuackGuru (talk) 20:19, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

• I would decline. I have a good deal of experience at SPI, I clerked there a year, have 1200 blocks worth, and your evidence just isn't jumping out and screaming "duck" to me. You are welcome to ask another admin, no offense will be taken and I won't consider it forum shopping; call it a second opinion this one time. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 20:45, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Panhead2014

Isn't that something--I was just reaching that same conclusion after reading the ridiculous history of Míchel Salgado. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 01:42, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

• I picked up some chatter over there and went to the talk page, and something said I needed to look at their contribs. I didn't have to dig very deep to find that, along with the combative attitude on the talk page. Let's hope a short block will get the message across. I'm sure that isn't the only article they have been warring on. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:45, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Sergio Busquets is another one. I'm about to look at the AN3 report. Now that you blocked, I am at some liberty to see what content issues are going on. Drmies (talk) 01:58, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • This guy is practically asking for an indefinite block. Look at Talk:Sergio_Busquets#Champions_League_Incident_Revisited, which is early in his wiki career. Man, that's lashing out, for no reason at all. Drmies (talk) 02:05, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
    • You don't even have to look at the content to know there is a NPOV issue there, and that he is letting his bias get in the way of building an encyclopedia. Whatever that info is, he wants it deleted at any cost, sources or not. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 09:12, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Declining CheckUser unblocks

I saw your AN post, and while I don't think it's currently true that admins cannot decline unblock requests of CheckUser blocks (only accepting them is not allowed), I agree with the sentiment after reading what you said. It is a sensible thing to do and I would support a change in policy to reflect that. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 02:45, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks for the note, glad to have you onboard. I think policy already does say that in that in the CU policy ("However, all checkuser blocks are subject to direct review and significant scrutiny by the other checkusers and the Arbitration Committee (or its Ban Appeals Subcommittee)."), and I think it is a good faith misunderstanding by admin, who don't really work around CUs much. It might could be worded differently earlier [9] but this once sentence pretty much defines who is authorized to review CU blocks, at least that is how I've always read it. I had pulled it off because I was afraid it might be focused more on the individuals than the overall problem as it was worded. I just want to make sure we are fair as CUs can and do make mistakes, just like the rest of us. I just want to make sure when don't lose good editors when they make an innocent mistake. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 08:53, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Second opinion on a sock

On the way to Wikimania, Dennis realises that getting up at 5am and drinking decaf was a bad idea.....

Hi Dennis. Can I get a second opinion? This message dropped onto my talk this morning, complaining about unsourced edits being reverted (not by me, I just gave him the heads up on policy), and I can't help thinking it reminds me of this message from last year, from someone who got indeffed per WP:COMPETENCE and has done quite a bit of socking since then (see here). Same sort of topic (The Who), same problems (adding unsourced material), same style (broken English, not replying on the same talk page). I will AGF and reply to the latest message when I've got a mo, but do I have grounds for re-opening in the SPI or that just random speculation on my part? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:00, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

• 5am here, up half an hour and no coffee yet, so I don't want to jump to conclusions. It is interesting, but not yet convincing. I will take a look later in the day. Really need to check out some of the socks. All the previous is stale for CU purposes, so anything that would be done would have to be purely based on behavior. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 09:08, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Woah - I didn't mean "jump to it and give me an answer NOW goddamit" ;-) Enjoy your coffee. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:16, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Hehe, just wanted to let you know I was on it :) I hate to leave a question unanswered if I'm awake. I'm funny that way. If it were super obvious, I would have gone ahead and used the hammer. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 09:22, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

(stalking) "Used the hammer"?! ... surely there are no beloved fellow editors who you'd be happy to pay someone £200 to get their fingers broken? Of course not. Cheaper to do it yourself, I guess. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:47, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

I have been known to use the hammer occasionally.... Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)}

Page Move Request

Hey Dennis, could you do a quick page move for me? I need WKDL (AM) moved to WRCW (currently a redirect). Reason, WKDL has changed it's callsign to WRCW. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 21:18, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

• Diannaa beat me to it. Not sure if she is clever or just a stalker, but you can thank her. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 21:33, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I asked her too. I thought you had gone offline. No worries though. :) - Neutralhomer • Talk • 23:14, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

My article is considerd for deletion according to the Wiki's Deletion Policy

Hi Dennis Brown
I have recently made a page on wikipedia named "Punjabi Music Media". After a day or two, you put a Article of Deletion on the top of the page. When i saw this, i have fully changed the matter on it. I deleted all the external links from it. Please review it as soon as possible. Now i could not locate where it does it sound promotional. Additionally, I just cross-checked the matter of the article. Please reply me on my email id & on my talk page.
Thank you,
Have a nice day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Manpreet Singh Sach (talk • contribs) 12:22, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

• You should make a note of any changes at the AFD itself, as the outcome isn't my decision, it is the communities. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 13:39, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

AFD stands for "Articles for Deletion".??? If i am correct, please give me an illustration on How to make a note of any changes at the AFD. Please sir... Because i m just new on Wiki. Give me only one Example of it. I will Be very greatful to you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Manpreet Singh Sach (talk • contribs) 14:49, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

(stalking) Dennis means you should go to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Punjabi Music Media and explain why the article should be kept. You will, however, need to supply a good argument, and the best way of doing that is to provide links to major national newspapers or magazines that cover the company in substantial depth and explain why it is at least nationally important. This is particularly important as several other editors have asserted that none exist. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:23, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

PANHEAD2014 block

Hi there DB, this is former user ALWAYS LEARNING, now vanished,

a situation (edit war, accusations, insults, does not matter who did who now, it's all in the pertinent WP:FOOTY discussion and the participants' talk pages) resulted in this user being blocked by you. He requested a second opinion from a "neutral" admin, as he felt that User:Drmies had a personal relationship with me and was biased, but a "neutral" admin was already involved in the first place because YOU blocked him, not Drmies.

Still, User:Randykitty (another "neutral" admin) offered more insight, he's still not convinced and claims all are out to get him (posses, cliques, etc), sad to see this. Also, i would appreciate if you, Randy or Mies could drop a note on his page if possible, because if i do it he'll accuse me of harassment as he did repeatedly: please tell him that i was not throwing a tantrum when i decided to leave WP forever after eight years then blame him for my departure, the run-in with him was just the last straw, lots of incidents (of which i am to blame in some, certainly) made me realize it was high time i left the project (i realized that "high time" about 10 or 20 times in those eight years, but never left!). Have nothing personally against Mr. Panhead, n-o-t-h-i-n-g.

Do not know if it's permanent but it will be a very long wikinap. Please reply to me HERE, i'll be watching.

Happy meditating --84.90.219.128 (talk) 18:28, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

• I don't think it would matter, as his comments are paranoid and all about how unfair I was for not blocking everyone (I'm not the only admin, any admin can block anyone), and honestly, he seems to not care about reason, only in getting justice. Well, there is WP:NOJUSTICE here, only solutions. It has been explained a little to him, but he has no interest in listening, he is going to paint himself the victim and nothing anyone says will make a difference. Honestly, I've seen it before and have better things to do that argue with someone who doesn't WP:HEAR by choice. I'm not a religious man, but the idiom Pearls before swine comes to mind. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 19:56, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Agree with that argument as much as a human being could, and then some. We'll leave it at that then, thank you for your time. --84.90.219.128 (talk) 20:13, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Peace music

related to your recent AN close is on top of my user page (and on the Main page), DYK? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:23, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

• I know now what you look like now, and very much like I imagined, which is unusual as I often get that wrong. And all those DYK's just show how much smarter you than I am. You should be proud of the work you do. I like the info box, but I do question if you are really 4. I spent most of my life as a musician on stage as well, but it was cranking out blues riffs and country music twang while young men lied to young women, and old men drank because of old women. I have no regrets, even if I would do things differently in hindsight. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 17:41, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

My user is four ;) - When I wrote top I meant top, but thanks for reading more! The DYK people didn't take my preferred hook, therefore I placed it in the pumpkin sky ;) - There's another image of me with pumpkin outfit, DYK? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:16, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Please re-open that incident

Dennis Brown, I respectfully ask that you please re-open that incident. I'd hoped that I wouldn't have to explain how the use of c*nt in the discussion cited was personal, and your closing it means that you didn't see it, so I would like the opportunity to explain why it was personal. Lightbreather (talk) 02:53, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

You closed it before I (and I assume other concerned parties) even had a chance to finish reading the replies, and I cannot believe that you put the link in this comment [10] that you put there. If I have told you and others that I find that word offensive, why one earth would you point me and other readers to "text of that word" that leads with graphic photos of female genitalia?! Did you consider that a civil response? Lightbreather (talk) 03:02, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Further, your first response to the CIVIL discussion I started was:

You are looking for Wikipedia:Wikiquette assistance. The community voted to shut it down [11] and deal with civility issues at WP:ANI and WP:DRN.

Then, when that discussion became personal and I took it to ANI (there not being a WQA or PAIN board)... You closed it down within less than an hour after I opened it. Again, I respectfully ask you to re-open that discussion, and maybe let another, uninvolved editor oversee it. Lightbreather (talk) 03:20, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I hate it that it is personal, but policy isn't based on personal issues with a singular word. Is the word offensive? Yes, but lots of things are offensive, and we have articles on them. Under no circumstance can we use how it affects you individually as a basis for policy. Policy is designed to be universal, that is the only way it is fair. We aren't judges, we just find solutions to problems, and we aren't going to block someone for this. If Wikipedia ever started censoring, I'm pretty sure I would leave, as would many others, for political reasons.

Here is the deal:

We are here to build an encyclopedia, not create a perfect society. This means people from all over the globe will participate. I promise that you will find some things in some cultures offensive, crass, weird, odd, or even immoral. We try to keep people from making personal attacks, or just constantly being offensive, but occasional offensiveness isn't going to be actionable, ever. If an admin did block him, I would unblock him myself, because of the principle. I'm sorry that the word is particularly offensive to you. It is to many people (my wife, for instance). But he didn't use the word to antagonize you, he used it as a specific example. Even if he didn't, as long as he wasn't making a personal attack, I would not support blocking anyone use it, even though I find it offensive.

As for the link I put in there, that is material hosted by the Foundation for use on Wikipedia. That is material considered acceptable at Wikipedia. A bit much for my tastes, but policy says this is perfectly fine. Again, we are not censored, we will not ever be censored. This isn't even a decision the community can decide, it is the Foundation, the owners of the site, that dictate that censorship won't be allowed. Policy also codifies this.

If you keep down this road , the end result will be something you didn't expect. You didn't even notify the editor you were speaking about, which is against the rules on that page. Making reports against people when there is no policy violation is a problem, and why I closed. And by policy, I am uninvolved, you just disagree with my conclusions.

Getting people to work together better, to choose to not swear, to get along better....those are worthwhile and at least partially achievable. Pushing for a system where someone gets blocked for a single use of an ugly word, that is just not going to happen. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 03:23, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

From WP:WIAPA: Racial, SEXIST, homophobic, transphobic, ageist, religious, political, ethnic, national, sexual, or other epithets (such as against people with disabilities) directed against another contributor, or against a group of contributors. Disagreement over what constitutes a religion, race, sexual orientation, or ethnicity is not a legitimate excuse.

Dennis, it doesn't get any more sexist to refer to woman or a group of women as cunts. It's right up there with the "N" word for people of color. Please re-open the discussion, so that I may explain why the use of that word in the discussion in question was a personal attack. I thought it was obvious, but if it's not, I can explain it. Please re-open it and defer to an uninvolved admin, that is all I'm asking - respectfully. Lightbreather (talk) 03:46, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Also, where did I ask that anyone be blocked? I asked that someone be warned. Lightbreather (talk) 03:49, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Who said he was referring to women? Not everyone uses that word exclusively as an insult to a woman, particularly outside the US. Besides, it wasn't directed at anyone, which is why it isn't a personal attack. There is no "person". It isn't a word I like (but I'm not afraid to type it) and certainly not a word I would ever use, but I'm not here to force him to act like me. I'm not reopening. If you want to revert go ahead, I closed for YOUR benefit, not his. And I'm getting a bit miffed feeling like I have to censor myself here, and frankly I don't like that feeling. That is as offensive as the word. It is midnight, I have to get up in a few hours, so good luck. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 04:03, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Please, I don't want to argue with you about it here. I am respectfully asking you to give me an opportunity to present my argument to my fellows. If you are against censorship, please give me that opportunity. Lightbreather (talk) 04:11, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

So, you're not afraid to type that word, and insult someone by comparing them to women. How about are you willing to type the n-word, and insult someone by implying their skin is overly pigmented. —Neotarf (talk) 04:35, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

• (talk page stalker) Just to provide some non-US context, in my part of the UK the word is far less offensive than I believe it is in the US, and it's not used with sexist connotations - I'd never been aware of any sexist usage until I came across a previous incident here at WP, when the word was used by someone British and caused unintended offence to an American. In my experience where I live, it's mostly used by males talking about males, and often in a friendly and joking manner. — Alan / Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:32, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

• None of that is the point. I also find the words cunt and nigger both offense, Neotarf. That doesn't mean I can't type them and discuss them as words, because I'm an adult. It wasn't my choice, it was thrust upon me. I don't demand someone use asterisks when using them in context, and the Libertarian in me finds it offensive when someone demands that I conform to their standard of morality, that pushed me over the edige. Obviously I won't stand for personal attacks, but that isn't what happened, not by mile. Wikipedia isn't WP:THERAPY and if someone has a particular issue with the word, I can't use that as a basis to go block someone. And Lightbreather isn't helping women's causes by being overly sensitive and demanding special treatment here. Look, Neotarf, I know you mean what you say, and say it in the best of faith, but all the strong women in my life don't want special treatment, but they will demand equal treatment. Equal civility for everyone, we are all in this together. Women aren't inferior little things that need special handling from us big old men, they are equal partners in life that should demand equal opportunity and treatment, and the good comes with the bad. Civility isn't about gender. And under no circumstance will I tolerate censorship in a public forum. We even have a policy on that. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 13:19, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

  I agree completely. Any attempt to tell me I can't even *say* a word is oppressive and grossly offensive. There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying or writing any word that has ever been used, including "cunt" and "nigger". There might be a great deal wrong with the way an individual person might use such a word, but the sequence of letters producing the specific phonetic result is, in itself, utterly non-judgmental. As for using asterisks, well... If they hide the word so people don't know what it means, then it's a failure. But if the asterisks leave it clear what word is meant, then what the fuck is the point of doing it?! To me, someone who says the word "cunt" without directing any personal attack at anyone has done nothing wrong, but those who accuse that person of "refer(ing) to woman or a group of women as cunts" when no such reference was made are guilty of a breach of WP:NPA. — Alan / Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:43, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

  (talk page stalker) yes , what the **** is the point of doing it? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:52, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

And then there's niggardly – a perfectly good word, which, because of its near homophone status, has been painted with the broad brush of unacceptability. Using this word, even in perfect context, can still offend people who are ignorant of its true meaning – even when that's clearly not the intent. Similar to the situation discussed here and at WP:AN? I guess everyone has the right to determine what they find offensive... Mojoworker (talk) 20:50, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

In a case of ironic timing (or perhaps someone from mental floss is involved in this kerfuffle) http://mentalfloss.com/article/58036/50-words-sound-rude-actually-arent Gaijin42 (talk) 20:54, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Great link. Work a few of those in context at your next ANI/Arb discussion to see if you can get a fool's block. At the very least, they will draw personal attacks from people who can't believe you would use such language ;) Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 21:53, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand your comment about "special handling" for women. Have I missed somewhere that the various forms of bigotry--gay-bashing, racism, agism, religious intolerance, Jew-baiting, Islamophobia--are all completely acceptable at Wikipedia? And that all these groups routinely ignore an intimidating, hostile, or offensive editing environment? And that enduring this offensive conduct is a condition of continued editing at Wikipedia? In light of that, you may want to reconsider your recent comment here: "This has a demoralizing effect on the admin corps, knowing we are one hissy fit away from being desysoped by a disgruntled employee." You wouldn't want people to think you were expecting special treatment for admins, or that you were trying to impose censorship on the WMF staff or anything. —Neotarf (talk) 03:01, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I think you've missed a great deal of my comments. I'm saying we do policy based on everyone and we can't block someone because of a comment that is ok to say to man but not for a woman. It would be bigoted to do that! I do not subscribe to the idea that we must overcompensate in policy for women here, and find those ideas to be demeaning to women. It is like telling them they can't collaborate without extra help. That is demonstrably false. Women are no less capable of contributing or achieving goals here. When we see sexism (men or women) it should be dealt with, but isolating women as a special class for special protections does them no favor. A personal attack is a personal attack, regardless of gender. Sexism shouldn't be tolerated at all, and I haven't seen anyone willing to do so. When we see it, we tend to be rather harsh and block right off the bat, to be honest. I have seen people take general comments and take them out of context, however. Eric was crass, but he didn't call anyone anything. I can't stand the word, but precedence has been set, it seems, that we don't block for incidental uses of swear words, including that one. You can't block him for saying it in the presence of a woman, but not block him for saying it in the presence of a man. That isn't gender neutral and a bit sexist itself, plus now you place a burden on users to check the gender of an editor, most of which haven't gender identified. Want that changed? Go get policy to reflect that the mere utterance of that word is a blockable offense. Per the last Arb session on it, it isn't. That is simply the reality we have here now. Demanding that someone use asterisks because you are a woman isn't the answer either. It is a catch 22, there are no winners here. All I can is look at policy and precedence and make the best sense of it I can. What I can't do is enforce my opinion of what policy should be.

I wasn't asking special treatment for admin, quite the opposite, I was asking Erik to be treated like any other admin. The fact remains that he DOES have the technical power to desysop, and if the community doesn't make it clear that threats aren't acceptable, then they will continue. Again, I'm not alone in this idea, by a long shot. The fact is, if he was a Crat making that comment (the only class that can desysop), he would have been blocked, so he has already been given special treatment. THAT is the problem. We already have a system for desysoping: Arbcom for regular situations, Stewards for emergencies. He was threatening to go around the community to get his way. To even threaten to violate our procedures that way is an offense against the entire community. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 03:45, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm afraid you've missed my point. I don't have a clue about this person you seem to be complaining about; all of that was before my time. I'm talking about the language that even you seem to recognize is NSFW. What if you took one of the ethnic slurs from this list and injected it into a conversation you knew was being followed by some members of that particular ethnic group. Not calling anyone that specific slur, mind you, just mentioning the slur over and over and over and over, say, maybe ten times or so, just as an academic exercise discussing the term, don't you know. And even when several members of the group tried to call a halt, and said they were leaving the discussion, and explained why, kept using the word again and again. Or what if someone tried to inject an image of Mohammad into an Islamic discussion over and over. What about FREE SPEECH, FER CHRISTSAKE, can't you even post a picture of Mohammad with out Those People all getting huffy and acting like Special Flowers???? No, this is not special treatment, it is bullying and harrassment, pure and simple. These people are out on a limb, Dennis, and you need to stop defending them. —Neotarf (talk) 04:40, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

You raise some interesting points, and in a polite manner, which I appreciate. I would like to discuss further, I'm always open to reconsidering my perspective. Not to cry on anyone's shoulder but it is a fact that I have a father in law of 21 years in ICU, for two weeks, with a fever that has hit 107, which is a pretty obvious conclusion, so I'm not at my best, emotionally supporting his wife and family. My recent posts probably show that to a degree, and it is why my time here has been spotty. Give me a bit, but by all means, let's talk about it again, when I can think without as many distraction. I am sincere in this. I've helped my wife through a suit against sexist employer, and seen her get discriminated against at another, plus watched mom put up with crap for year before standing up as a woman, and dad came around (sort of), so we are both on the same side of the issue, even if we have different ideas. I'm not promising I will change my mind here, but I am willing to genuinely listen and learn. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 04:51, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

If I thought you were one of the haters, I wouldn't bother trying to communicate. But take care of your personal life first, this is only an encyclopedia. On the other hand it is an encyclopedia populated by real people who can be harmed by our actions, so we do need to take care to be informed on the issues. —Neotarf (talk) 05:21, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

But maybe you are out on a limb yourself, Neotarf. And where the bullying and harassment (and attempts to marginalise) is coming from can cut both ways. --Epipelagic (talk) 04:55, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Whatever. —Neotarf (talk) 05:22, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• Hey. Nice chats you've been having here and on ANI. Did you fill up Jimbo's talk page as well? How did I miss all this action? Well, you're now certifiably corrupt, since no one saw fit to even warn Scotty for it. I should do it, but hey, look at my block log! For the record, "you lack empathy" is hardly the same as "you're corrupt". And I just noticed that there's the age-old talk of "enabling admins" again--the kind of thing I've heard a few times before. I suppose the Panda is one of those also now. Take it easy, Dennis. All the best to you and your family. Drmies (talk) 17:40, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Drmies, I appreciate. Again not to cry on anyone's shoulders but just to explain my absence: things have gone pear shaped with Mrs. Brown's father in ICU and it is a matter of days now, plus the aftermath, much of which is on my shoulders. Frankly, that is all I care about. If anyone wants to desysop me in the next couple weeks while I take care of this, they can email attach my pink slip. I don't expect to be checking up. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 21:25, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I came here to tell you that I very much agreed with your observation that I was an equal opportunity offender with respect to rudeness, but then I read your comments about your father-in-law, which puts anything that happens here on WP into perspective. If I believed in God I'd pray for you and your family. Eric Corbett 23:44, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Max Bennett (actor) and User:FightingLiars

Thank you for your work on this matter. Unsurprisingly, checkuser comes up  Confirmed as to all the accounts and I endorse your having indeffed them. I have taken the liberty of upping the block on User:FightingLiars to indefinite as well, as it is a single-purpose attack account (plus in context the username is unacceptable). Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:05, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks for putting the icing on that. I just used the least block that would get the job done as a temporary measure. I completely agree with your modifications. Farmer Brown (alt of Dennis Brown) 16:17, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Re:WT:RfA

Saw your comments, almost missed since you added your comment between to other. I know that AfD/CSD etc are needed. But from the past RfAs, I have seen some potential editors have faced ridiculous opposes. I'm concerned about how people voices there opposes, I mean the tone of writing the comment was too harsh in some cases. Not everyone but I have seen few in almost every RfA. There must be a guideline which forbids the use of harsh words directing towards the candidate. Jim Carter (from public cyber) 13:32, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

• As someone pointed out, there are perennial proposals on the subject, all have failed. I'm more familiar with the issue than you would think. Take a look at the 31 people opposing me at RFA at WP:Requests for adminship/Dennis Brown if you get the chance. It includes "We don't need another junior-high school vice-principal reciting cliches and apologizing for administrators" (for the record, I like Kiefer. He and I get along fine and wish he wasn't currently blocked), as well as Malleus's " It's ridiculous to promote someone on the basis of an unenforceable promise to stay away from one area or another for some vague period of time.", who is now known by his real name of Eric Corbett and since has worked with me on two GAs, plus a FA/TFA. I'm not really on bad terms with anyone that opposed me, but I chose to engage them rather than get mad. Many votes that claimed I was delete-happy, which most would find ironic now. Basically, RFA is an god awful slugfest, but it is still no worse than what admin have to deal with on a weekly basis, it is just a sustained version of it and in some ways, serves the purpose of seeing how the candidate will act under pressure. That is why we compare it to Hell Week or the gauntlet. It is an ordeal of sorts, and while it sometimes goes too far, a degree of it is useful to see the true character of the candidate. Once in a while, a candidate looses their cool, and this tells us about what they would do in a very contentious situation. Many candidates have avoided ALL controversy during their tenure, and this is the first trial of their ability to deal with criticism. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 14:20, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

RfA

Sorry to be on the other side of the fence, it actually took me a long time to make my mind up, but all's fair in whatnot. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 18:08, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

• Never apologize for disagreeing. I'm not hopeful and my vote is a bit of a WP:IAR vote, but I completely understand why others would choose either side. To me, net positive is a huge factor here and I've seen him grow enough that I think he can continue to do so. I jumped in early because I thought many would oppose just due to the block log. That is less a concern than other factors, to be honest. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 18:44, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm also in the other side (haven't opposed ever so neutral) I suggested for a withdraw since I'm quite afraid that this RfA will go again in the wrong way. Jim Carter (from public cyber) 21:22, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Armbrust is a big boy, he knows how to read the tea leaves. He probably knows more about procedure than Kudpung and I combined. Forget the RFA, the fact is, he is an amazingly hardworking and dedicated Wikipedian with tremendous experience. He gets a little testy sometimes, and will edit war with you if you screw up one of the snooker articles around here, but make no mistake about it, he could teach a class on procedure here and can handle whatever is thrown his way. He will be fine. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 21:50, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I agree with most of what you said. But no, RfA candidate must show calm, patience behaviour. Seeing the block log, I'm afraid that his qualities might get hide by that block log. Edit war is never a good thing even if you see somone is removing stuff continuosly from your favourite article, the correct way is to start a discussion on the talk page leave a talk back on the remover talk page and wait for response. If you get no response, ping a sysop. There are many other ways one can deal with, But no edit war. I know he is good but... Jim Carter (from public cyber) 06:18, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Picking up on the thread over at RfA talk I thought I might throw out user:Knowledgekid87 as an editor with admin potential. I have not done any kind of proper vetting but he has plenty of edits in a lot of different areas and my own interactions have left me quite impressed. If there is a shortage of sysops I think he is worth at least a good look. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:10, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

S/he has his moments. I haven't looked very closely, however. I don't think we are really that short, but you can't wait until you are short to find new blood. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:16, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Bury the hatchet

Dennis, while I still have some concerns about some of the things you've said during the recent incident, I just wanted to let you know that I don't hold a grudge against you, and hope that we can remain cordial should we ever find ourselves editing the same article or participating in the same discussion in the future. I know I may have said some things about you that you didn't appreciate, and if that's true, then I apologize. Cheers. ‑Scottywong| yak _ 01:43, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

As I noted above, I'm dealing with some heavy family issues right now, so I don't have time for an extended discussion, but taking the time to clear up a few things as well. You and I both have different ideas on adminship, things that would make for a good general discussion outside of a specific case. You and I are both blunt speakers, although in very different ways, so we are going to rub each other wrong from time to time. I don't hold grudges over that, I expect to bump head with other admin from time to time. It wasn't personal against you nor about Eric, I just have a hair trigger on admin vs editor issues in general. So it isn't personal, I haven't painted a target on you, I'm not holding a grudge, that isn't my way. My preference is for you and I both to avoid editors that we have blocked and been in fights with. If my "empathy" comment was too strong, I would apologize for that. Perhaps I should have said that my opinion is that the method of blind blocking at 4RR lacks empathy, which is more akin to what I meant, that I believe we should try persuasion first. Like I said, we both can be blunt.

Just so you and others know, "we will fucking spank you" wasn't a random use of profanity. It is a movie quote from Dogma, spoken by Matt Damon in the role of Loki (the Angel of Death) while paraphrasing God. A more complete quote would be "Organized religion destroys who we are by inhibiting our actions, by inhibiting our decisions out of, out of fear of some, some intangible parent figure who, who shakes a finger at us from thousands of years ago and says, and says, "Do it... do it and I'll fucking spank you."" The comment was more philosophical than it might have appeared to a casual observer, and in that discussion, apropos, as the idea of an inflexible rule (or bot) to blind block seemed dogmatic to me. I'm not prone to using strong language around here unless there is a genuine point to be made, such as not wanting admin or bot admin to be inflexible gods who draw lines in the sand and dare others to cross them.

You raised another concern about my blocks, which is a valid one but easily explainable. Almost all my blocks are SPI blocks, over 300 in one case there, the largest in our history. I was an SPI clerk for over a year, so that rate is typical, not extraordinary. Many are vandalism blocks. I have had one block that I know that that was a genuinely bad block. I went and personally apologized in a highly visible and most sincere way. Less than a half dozen are warring blocks, typically when one is warring against many. I am quick to protect instead. You could debate the wisdom of that, but that is how it is. I'm not afraid to block, but I avoid blocking regular contributors if words will suffice.

Anyway, it isn't about grudges for me. Real life beckons so apologies to anyone needing my attention for the next while, as family comes first. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 13:48, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. I didn't pick up on the Dogma quote, even though that movie is a favorite of mine. ‑Scottywong| confess _ 15:58, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Tag Bombing

Hi Dennis. I am having an issue with another editor who keeps putting a ref improve tag on an article that already has two other tags indicating the need for more sources. I have removed the tag three times with explanatory notes in the edit summary and s/he has restored the tag three times, without comment. This is starting to look like a soft edit war (it's occurring over multiple days) which I have no interest in pursuing. I'd drop it except that the added tag looks like a case of tag bombing. The lack of even a word of explanation from the other editor in response to my concerns also strikes me as a bit rude. On a side note, this is not an inexperienced editor. At your convenience if you could take a look and maybe drop a friendly line or revert the tag yourself, I'd appreciate it. Of course if you think s/he is right I'm open to correction. Thanks... -Ad Orientem (talk) 12:37, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Just noticed from your above post that you are having issues in your personal life that are understandably taking priority right now. Please ignore my post. I will drop it with another editor. I have been having some major health issues in the family so I sympathize. Hope all turns out well. -Ad Orientem (talk) 14:05, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Media Viewer RfC draft principles & findings

Hello. This is a courtesy note that the draft findings and principles in the Media Viewer RfC case have now been posted. The drafters of the proposed decision anticipate a final version of the PD will be posted after 11 August. You are welcome to give feedback on the workshop page. For the Committee, Lord Roem ~ (talk) 02:45, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Deletions

Hello Dennis; hope you are doing well. Anyways, although I have not completed the AfD mentoring yet, do you think it would be OK if I speedily deleted HR 2422 Monocerotis as an implausible typo per CSD? It's clearly not something somebody would type in the search bar; the two designations are either "HR 2422" or "V640 Monocerotis"; they are never combined. StringTheory11 (t • c) 03:28, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, I am going to be unavailable for what may be an extended time due to a family emergency. I'm not even working right now. I would ask another admin please pick up where I left off with your mentoring, so you aren't delayed. Farmer Brown (alt of Dennis Brown) 01:20, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Sorry to hear of the family crisis. Prayers for you and yours... -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:49, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

I was afraid it was something like that - probably related to the situation you mentioned a few weeks ago. I will send good thoughts to you and your family. Take your time and deal with your real life situation. Wikipedia will limp along. MelanieN (talk) 01:57, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Totally agree with the two posters above me; WP is much less important than the real world. My thoughts go out to you and your family. Take as much time off as you need. StringTheory11 (t • c) 05:44, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Sorry to hear that Dennis, let me know if I can help. - Dank (push to talk) 22:07, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

StringTheory11 in answer to your original question, HR 2422 Monocerotis is not speedily deletable. The criterion you are implying is WP:G3. The first 3 wwords of that criterion say, "Recently created redirects". Since HR 2422 Monocerotis was created in 2006, it was not recently created. GB fan 22:51, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks; that's why I'd figure I'd check first, to make sure I wasn't missing something. StringTheory11 (t • c) 19:02, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Issue regarding Athletic Bilbao article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Athletic_Bilbao&action=history

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Athletic_Bilbao#The_brief_paragraph_about_Athletic_Bilbao.27s_rivals

I believe I have done this the proper way, as you advised, by offering to discuss the edit in the article's Talk section, yet again though, within minutes Gringoladomenega has shown no interest in actually debating the edit, instead just reverts without seeking a consensus. I assume bringing this to the attention of admin is appropriate. Panhead2014 (talk) 01:23, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi Panhead2014. Dennis is currently working through some things in his real life that prevent him from editing right now. My initial read of the situation indicates that your comments on the talk page are framed in a less than constructive way. While you do outline the problem, it is framed argumentatively, which may inhibit the fruitfulness of the ensuing discussion. My suggestion to you would be that you rephrase your admittedly valid concern in a more neutral fashion and then ping ({{ping|username}}) the editor with whom you disagree to the talk page; there is a chance he simply did not see the discussion. If this still does not work, let me know, and we can discuss potential page protection. Thanks, and God bless! Go Phightins! 01:29, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

WP:JSTOR access

Hello, WP:The Wikipedia Library has record of you being approved for access to JSTOR through the TWL partnership described at WP:JSTOR . You should have recieved a Wikipedia email User:The Interior sent several weeks ago with instructions for access, including a link to a form collecting information relevant to that access. Please find that email, and follow those instructions. If you were not approved, did not recieve the email, or are having some other concern or question, please respond to this message at Wikipedia talk:JSTOR/Approved. Thanks much, Sadads (talk) 21:10, 5 August 2014 (UTC) Note: You are recieving this message from an semi-automatically generated list. If you think you were incorrectly contacted, make sure to note that at Wikipedia talk:JSTOR/Approved.

PANHEAD2014

After returning from his second block, don't know where he has edited because i am retired from editing, so i have not reverted anything. What i know he has done is file a complaint about me and User:MYS77 writing in a non-English language in each other's talkpages, which is not forbidden by WP guidelines, User:Writ Keeper had the courtesy of informing me today.

My apologies in Mr.Panhead's (i also apologized to the user that received the complaint, then issued me the warning, User:MrScorch6200) page were summarily removed with the summary "Don't wish to be bothered by this person". If you again come into contact with this user, please tell him if he does not wish so, then please stop talking about me/reporting me behind my back.

Attentively --84.90.219.128 (talk) 21:30, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Dennis is very busy at the moment; some issues have come up in real life that keep away from Wikipedia. It seems like Writ Keeper and Drmies have resolved your situation for the moment. While it is discourteous, there's not much you can do about people talking about you behind your back. Unless behind-the-scenes conversations escalate to the point of personal attacks the other users aren't breaking a specific policy, as far as I know. However, editors are required to inform you if they officially report you to a noticeboard, such as the administrator's noticeboard. I hardly think posting foreign language comments in user talk space rises to that severity. Altamel (talk) 02:25, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

• Thank you for your time, appreciated. I was advised to let it go by the two users you mention here, and that's exactly what i will do. Again, thanks, and all the best to Mr. Brown is what i sincerely desire. --84.90.219.128 (talk) 03:50, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Invitation to WikiProject TAFI

	Hello, Dennis Brown. You're invited to join WikiProject Today's articles for improvement. Feel free to nominate an article for improvement at the project's Nominated articles page. Also feel free to contribute to !voting for new weekly selections at the project's talk page. If interested in joining, please add your name to the list of members. NorthAmerica1000 16:38, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Merge discussion for Dorje Shugden

An article that you have been involved in editing, Dorje Shugden, has been proposed for a merge with another article. If you are interested in the merge discussion, please participate by going here, and adding your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Chris Fynn (talk) 19:29, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Media Viewer RfC arbitration case - extension of closure dates

Hello, you are receiving this message because you have commented on the Media Viewer RfC arbitration case. This is a courtesy message to inform you that the closure date for the submission of evidence has been extended to 17 August 2014 and the closure date for workshop proposals has been extended to 22 August 2014, as has the expected date of the proposed decision being posted. The closure dates have been changed to allow for recent developments to be included in the case. If you wish to comment, please review the evidence guidance. For the Arbitration Committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 10:00, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Prejudice

It might (or might not) amuse you to know that the current dislike of most of the so-called four letter words, so recently discussed elsewhere, is largely due to prejudice against Anglo-Saxon in post-conquest Norman ruled England.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 05:09, 5 August 2014 (UTC).

Thank you for the kind emails

I'm acting as advocate for my father-in-law, who has just been admitted to Hospice. I've always had a high opinion of Hospice, and working with them has shown me how truly amazing these folks are. Right now, my focus is on Mrs. Brown, her mom, and obvious him. I've known him over 21 years and I really couldn't have asked for a better dad-in-law. He has been my mentor, and my dad.

Jerry left high school to serve as a Marine and to support his mom and young brother, then spent 35 years as a fireman, before retiring as Chief of one the divisions. Soon after retirement, he became caretaker of his wife, even though he had decades of severe Crohns, then eventually Parkinsons and cirrhosis due to decades of medications, a task Mrs. Brown has been helping with more and more over the years. I could go on and on without hyperbole, he truly is one hell of a man that did a number of things that aren't "notable", they are just remarkable. It is an honor to serve him at this time.

It is going to be a while until I am back, please understand if I don't respond here or in email. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:32, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Prayers ascending for you and your family. Having just lost someone close to me to pancreatic cancer I have an idea of what is going on, and the pain that comes with it. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:45, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Best wishes, Dennis. MastCell ^Talk 01:01, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

You have my best wishes, Dennis. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:04, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Speedy recovery and return Dennis. Mlpearc (open channel) 01:55, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

All the best to you and your family, Dennis. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 02:20, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

My very best wishes to you and your family, Dennis. You have flown the flag for editor retention and a collegial wiki environment high and wide, and for that we can all be thankful. Come back refreshed when you feel you're ready and give us another automobile GA. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:38, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Best to you and yours. ```Buster Seven Talk 16:23, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

My prayers are with you and yours Dennis. I have been battling Crohn's for over 50 years, since before it was Crohn's, actually. I am reaching the stage of my life where my liver is tired of dealing with the meds too. I am glad you are able to be there for him.. Firefighters have a place in heaven just to the right of Jesus. May his suffering be short. I am also a big fan of Hospice. John from Idegon (talk) 19:29, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

My prayers are with you and your family Dennis, especially your father-in-law. God bless. Go Phightins! 15:32, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Breaking my Wiki-silence to wish you strength and peace. You have your priorities in order. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 23:33, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

• My thoughts are with you and your family, Dennis. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:55, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
• My very best wishes in this difficult time: Rich Farmbrough, 13:13, 12 August 2014 (UTC).
  

Thanks again

He slipped quietly into whatever lies next early this morning, with his oldest daughter, my Mrs. Brown at his side. I think he would have preferred it that way. I left work and informed mom in person. My job as nursemaid is complete, but there are still many challenges ahead. Again, I have only praise for Hospice, who will continue to support mom emotionally, for as long as she needs it. During the process, I walked out in the hall one day to just catch my breath and found myself simply overwhelmed, realizing how unprepared I was for the task. For just a few minutes, I needed someone to say "I truly understand, and I'm here for you", I needed to not be strong for just a moment, and the Hospice volunteers were there. Then I went back in.

I can accept his passing as I'm confident in my spiritual philosophy, but I've been married to Mrs. Brown for 21 years, and nothing destroys me like seeing her in tears. I can easily say that I would take a bullet for her, but in this case, I was powerless to take her pain away. All I could do was ensure he was pain-free and died with dignity, and he did. Nothing makes a man feel more impotent than seeing the love of your life in pain, and you can't shoot, punch or chase the problem away. Some things you just can't fix, and that is a hard lesson, friends.

Anyway, I share this with you all, not because I want your sympathy, but because you all will face this at some time in your life, and when you do, you should know that you aren't alone. Accept the help offered, never be afraid to ask for more. Asking for help is a sign of strength, not a sign of weakness. Allowing others to help helps them heal as well, makes them feel less powerless, like they made a difference.

This reminds me of a quote from the TV Show Firefly, paraphrased a bit: "When you can't run, you crawl, and when you can't crawl - when you can't do that... You find someone to carry you."

I'm not done carrying right now (or being carried), but I will move forward. I will see you all then. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 18:36, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Dearest Dennis, I just want you to know that you and your family are in our thoughts and prayers. Best, David & Susie, David J Johnson (talk) 18:51, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Dennis, please accept my deepest sympathies on your loss. May his memory be eternal! -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:20, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Dennis, you are and have been for some time one of the more respected people here, and one of the few I have felt earned being addressed as "sir." Your obvious high regard for your father-in-law is an indicator of what an exceptional man he was. He and you and your family are in our thoughts and prayers.John Carter (talk) 19:47, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

My sincerest condolences, Dennis, to you and to your wife. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 19:40, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Best wishes to yourself, and Mrs B., and Mom, at this sad time. PamD 22:52, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Me too. Doc talk 22:56, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

My sincere condolences to you & your wife at this sad time. –Davey2010 • (talk) 23:07, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

My thoughts are with you and your family. But of course there are no words. —Neotarf (talk) 23:12, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

• Sorry for your trouble Dennis. My thoughts are with you and your family at this time. Knowing you and what a good and strong man you are, I am sure you are handling it well and providing a tower of strength for others. Don't forget to take a bit of time for yourself when you need it. Much love, --John (talk) 23:33, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

• God bless, Dennis. This might prove to be some comforting reading for you. Prayers continue to be with you and your family. Go Phightins! 23:39, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

• My condolences. Times such as these always bring burdens and sadness, Dennis. It is, alas, a part of the human condition. Do what you always do, being the decent man that you are, and you'll find a way through it. And Remember Him. - Sitush (talk) 23:44, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
• Dennis: my condolences. All the best. Please give my regards and best wishes to Mrs. Brown. Drmies (talk) 00:27, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

• Dennis, deepest sympathy for you and your wife and all others who grieve. May his memory be eternal. Regards. Fylbecatulous talk 01:26, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
• My condolences go out to you and your wife. I send my thoughts to you. StringTheory11 (t • c) 06:06, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

• Dennis, please accept my condolences from me and my family. You are going through one of the biggest challenges life can throw at you, and I can't really say much other than I hope you had lots of happy memories and times together, and celebrate all the good he may have brought to you. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:15, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
• Best wishes. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 18:12, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
• Sorry for your loss. When my mother passed in 2008, it was a very difficult period. With dad being placed in a nursing home recently, things have changed drastically for everyone in the family in ways that could never be foreseen. Take care of yourself, your family and those close to you and be well.--Mark Miller (talk) 10:55, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
• My most deep and sincere condolences. WP is nothing compared to RL, yet people war their hearts out over it. From Portugal, best wishes. --84.90.219.128 (talk) 16:26, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oh no! I'm so sorry Dennis...please pass on to Mama Bear that you both have my deepest sympathies. May you have strength and serenity to get you through...
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 20:22, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
• Condolences to you, your wife and family...my prayers are with you.. Dreadstar ☥ 19:41, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
• A bit belated, but sorry to hear this. --Rschen7754 19:52, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I only just heard about it as well. My heartfelt condolences.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:34, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Understanding

Hello Dennis,

Before 2003, I had dealt with death only from a distance. In September of that year, I sat alongside my brother Tom as my dad died of cancer, trying our best to comfort him in his final hours. A few days later, we observed the bar mitzvah of my disabled son, who is one of my life's joys. A few days later, I sat with my brother-in-law Victor as my father-in-law of 21 years died of congestive heart failure, fighting all the way. That was the most intense 14 days of my life. My wife and I were both "orphans", parentless at that point, and I felt bereft for many months. Maybe years. As did she, and our sons. But eventually, peace and the joy of life replaces grief. So, please accept my words of empathy. I know how tough these situations can be. I wish you well. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:27, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Requesting your expert knowledge

Greetings, Dennis Brown. I require the advise of an expert admin on moving articles. Basically, a bunch of articles were nominated for speedy move. Their move was contested. I started a full move request and succeeded in gaining overwhelming support. Now, I want to move the rest as well. What is the best course of action?

You can find out more here: [12]

Fleet Command (talk) 10:03, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

@FleetCommand:, I'm afraid Dennis Brown is offline for an extended period, for personal reasons. You might want to ask someone else. --MelanieN (talk) 21:39, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Allman Brothers

Sorry to hear of your troubles Dennis. This might at least for a few minutes make you feel a bit better.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:33, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

• Just what the doctor ordered. The wake was last night. The place was packed, including an overabundance of firemen who volunteered to serve as color guard. I managed to catch one while not on duty (similar to and likely influenced by the guards at Buckingham Palace, they don't speak while at duty), and asked him to share my gratitude with the others. He told me that he works in the same division as Jerry, fire prevention, and that he didn't join until well after Jerry had retired but Jerry was still well known in the division. He told me no thanks was needed, it was an honor to serve for the man that pushed through the first fire codes for the area (and the state). Some came from many miles away, folks that had never met him in person, they just worked with him on building those state codes so many years ago. It really was an uplifting experience for the family. The wake was full of friends, stories and of course tears but even more laughter and hugs and new friends made. I think he would have been pleased. The funeral is later today. Then the real work begins, helping mom build a new future. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 13:05, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

  I've been in your situation myself Dennis, and in my experience things start to improve after the funeral is over. It's like drawing a line and beginning to think of the future rather than the past. Eric Corbett 13:49, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

  What Eric said. I am late here because I worked on Weinen, Klagen, where the line is drawn in movement 5. Wth you, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:57, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Continued hugs, Dennis, and thanks for sharing that about the firefighters and the wake. And a sympathetic comment: don't expect too much of Mom, or expect her to "get on with her life" or "build a new future" right away. My own observation is that a person who loses a longtime spouse remains in a kind of daze for the next 12 months. Not even mourning necessarily, just a kind of daze - a vagueness, an out-of-touch-ness, an unwillingness to deal with the present or the future. It's very common and very normal. So be tolerant if she doesn't seem too responsive to attempts to plan her future. She may live in the past to some extent for quite a while. --MelanieN (talk) 22:03, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

The exact same advice I gave Mrs. Brown, so as usual, we agree. The funeral went well. There was a 15 gun salute, and representation from both the US Marines and the Greensboro Fire Department, including the current and incoming Chiefs of the division he headed, both of whom were very familiar with his work. The casket was hauled in a cart by two draft horses, to its final destination. There were flags and music and testimony. As funeral go, it was a bit impressive, to be honest. More importantly, at the services there was humor and a lot of shared memories, more smiles than tears, just like the wake.

Eric and Gerda, I do belief you are right. As I told Mrs. Brown, we are now off map and have to just play it day by day. Jerry's wife has been remarkably resilient during all this, with time and patience, she will figure out her own path forward. As we all left today, she didn't stay shut in. She instead walked out of her apartment and to the cafeteria, alone, boldly accepting her first challenge just hours after the ceremonies.

Thanks again to all for the kind words. I will probably be quite rare for a time as my day job is weeks behind, there are still family needs to take care of, and I simply am not in the mood to police ANI or write about cars right now. I have been very grateful for those that left kind words, and hopeful that sharing my experience will help someone else going through rough times. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:28, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Media Viewer RfC arbitration case - motion to suspend case

You are receiving this message as you have either commented on a case page or are named as a party to the case. A motion has been proposed to suspend the Media Viewer RfC arbitration case for a maximum of 60 days due to recent developments. If you wish to comment regarding the motion there is a section on the proposed decision talk page for this. For the Arbitration Committee, Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs). Message delivered by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) at 02:33, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Don't be gone too long...

Regardless of politics or "political correctness" you know how much of an impact you have had on editors and Wikipedia in general. You were the turning point on my understanding of how Wikipedia works and how to better understand editors and not just judge them. There will always be disagreement on how to handle everything from cussing to edit warring.....but I trust your judgment above all others and for that reason and that reason alone....I wish your speedy return! (Please feel free to delete this with no issue from me!)--Mark Miller (talk) 00:52, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

• Hey Mark, I'm taking my first semi-day off in 4 weeks now, decompressing. Just so you know, my absence has nothing to do with anything that happened here, that dust up was trivial. Google "jerry obituary greensboro" (w/o quotes) for more on why I've been gone. The last month, I've spent more time in a hospital than home, and now that the funeral is over, the paperwork begins; life insurance, bank accounts, stock accounts, etc., plus another memorial service tomorrow, and taking care of mom afterwards, and of course Mrs. Brown, who was his first born. She and I are doing most of the heavy lifting here. I'm just emotionally spent, which is why I'm not here. Real life does have a way of making this place look like a sandbox with too many brats fighting over the only bucket, so yes, I am reevaluating how I spend my free time, my volunteer time, but I'm not rushing to any judgement. I'm just coping right now and I don't need any additional emotional baggage or distractions. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 14:32, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Your absence is noted by many; my condolences to you and your family for the loss of your father-in-law. Take care and all the best, Miniapolis 23:52, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

I fully understand Dennis.--Mark Miller (talk) 01:44, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

• Dennis, just got back from a vacation and saw your note - my condolences. Take your time and come back when you can, you're definitely one of our best, and we need you. BMK (talk) 01:08, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

  Thanks. It is getting a little smoother, and no longer a full time job. At this point, Mrs. Brown is doing most of the heavy lifting and most of the paperwork is done. It is amazing how much paperwork there is, little things like car titles and who's name the bills are in, etc. It all has to be changed and it all adds up. I just started a new business a few months ago (in addition to having a day job), so all this has kept me pretty busy, and tired. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 09:33, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Savn band and album

Hi Dennis. I have written several articles about Norwegian metal bands, and I don´t have any problems with their "notability". For Savn, I have devoted much time making an article of encyclopedic interest, with many references. I think it's a good article in general. The album Savn is impossible to attach in another article (not independent), and it is important for the discography of Carmen Elise Espenæs. PLEASE DON´T DELETE!!. --Apega71 (talk) 23:38, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• The community had already deleted it at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Savn. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 12:12, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Random followup detail

Your article Glore Psychiatric Museum is still getting viewed between 10 and 30 times a day. I think you put this place on the map! --MelanieN (talk) 19:03, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

• That's good. To me, if only one person a day looks at it, but gets some kind of edutainment value from it, then we did fine. Even one a day adds up over time, and that is certainly a unique museum. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 19:44, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Fluther

Thanks for the explaining further, I am in agreement, so have deleted via PROD and SALTed. GiantSnowman 14:32, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

List of banned users MfD

Hi Dennis. Thanks for taking the time to comment on option 1 of the proposals for change at the list of banned users. It's clear that there's sufficient support that it will not be SNOW closed, so I've listed it at MfD - Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:List of banned users (6th nomination). I thought it appropriate to keep you informed. Worm^TT(talk) 09:49, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Created article found in the Rovio Entertaiment news

Hi. Read here: http://www.rovio.com/en/news/blog/540/selfie-slam-out-now-in-finland-sweden-and-canada And i know that found in the article this Selfie Slam by Rovio Entertainment. Do you want to accept it the nomination please! COME ON! :( MandatoryTeaser (talk) 13:41, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

A beer for you!

I thought about you yesterday. Nice to see you around; hope all is well. Drmies (talk) 14:17, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Beer sounds good, thanks. It's 10am here, but I'm sure it's 5pm somewhere. I'm just dabbling here though, real world is keeping me busy. Nothing worse than anyone else has had to deal with, so I won't cry in this beer. Probably will just forgo WikiCop duty and gnome for a bit. I expect to still be fairly scarce. I'm writing an article on UV lamp placement for maximum resin cure, after writing one on the Inverse Square Law and one on how ambient temperature affects UV propagation in a fluorescent lamp. Not for here, of course, it's all original research. Dennis 14:24, 16 September 2014 (UTC)