Talk:Jason Collins

Active?

Jason Collins came out after the NBA season ended. He's currently still unsigned. It is entirely possible that he will never play a single NBA game as an out gay man. Given this, should he be called the first 'active' out gay NBA player? Seems misleading. 108.180.22.215 (talk) 02:58, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Untitled

I hate pointing this out, but it's kinda funny. The picture of "Jason Collins in 2010" is actually of Marvin Williams (feel free to compare pictures). Not sure how that happened, but it looks like an overzealous Hawks' fan confused Williams for Collins during warm ups or something. I'm not taking the picture down because I don't have a free one of my own of Jason Collins, but it's good for a laugh. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.254.147.8 (talk) 21:25, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Protection

Resolved

 – Protected for 1 day.—Bagumba (talk) 18:18, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

This man just came out and already the page is under heavy vandalism. This page should be protected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Polonium194 (talk • contribs) 15:45, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Not sure about earlier, but it now mostly seems like a neutrality issue. Comment here or at WP:RPP if it changes.—Bagumba (talk) 16:39, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

This page needs to be locked. Right now when you google "Jason Collins" the wiki link that comes up says "Jason Paul Collins (born December 2, 1978) is a f a g g o t and an American ..." Besotted (talk) 18:11, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Someone needs to lock this. The homophobic bigots are changing it to that he became the first "athlete to take penis in the bum" and is a "f a g g o t'."— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.144.198.108 (talk • contribs) 18:32, April 29, 2013 (UTC)

Already protected at 18:11.—Bagumba (talk) 18:56, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Major North American teams

This edit added back that Collins was the first active gay in "the four North American major sports leagues" as opposed to "major American professional team sport". The NA reference was first questioned in Wikipedia:In_the_news/Candidates#Jason_Collins. First of all, the accuracy of Major professional sports leagues in the United States and Canada was brought into question. Secondly, we would need to identify a source that brings non-American sports into the discussion of Collins coming out for WP:V and avoiding WP:NOR and WP:UNDUE. I have only seen sources so far that put his announcement in context with American team sports.—Bagumba (talk) 19:42, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the sources all indicate he's the first athlete in one of the 4 major American sports leagues, being the NHL, NBA, MLB, and NFL, the first three of whom all have at least one Canadian representative, and the fourth has one team that plays at least 1 game per year in Canada (the Bills). The problem seems to be is that a) Sources are unambiguous about this being the first openly gay active athlete in those four leagues and b) How to indicate that succinctly and not ignore the Canadians. In American press, if is frequent to just call these the "4 major leagues" and leave it at that; for non-U.S. readers of Wikipedia, context is needed to indicate what these leagues are, and one cannot claim that the 4 big leagues are only American, as they all have some level of Canadian representation (well, the NFL is a bit tenuous). Suggested wording then should be "the four North American major sports leagues, being the NHL, NBA, MLB, and NFL" or some such, to make clear the exact meaning of the Big Four. --Jayron32 20:24, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Can you provide the sources for Collins that specify specific leagues or name "big 4"? It would help to guide how we should phrase this. I'm not convince "Big 4" is a Canadian term (see Talk:Major_professional_sports_leagues_in_the_United_States_and_Canada#Complete_rewrite). Agree that we need to separate the "big 4" being a possible American saying versus implying the leagues do not have Canadian membership (or in NHL case, league HQ is based in Canada).—Bagumba (talk) 20:37, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

• Daily Beast: " But he is the first from the Big Four sports leagues—NBA, NFL, MLB, and NHL—to do while still active."
• Yahoo sports: "Collins isn’t the only gay man currently drawing a paycheck from the big four major sports leagues, but as of right now he’s the only active gay player open about his sexuality that could head into next season’s training camp."
• CNN: "This makes him the first active openly gay male athlete in the four major American pro team sports."
• Business Insider: "He's the first active, openly gay athlete in one of the big-four American team sports."
• Reuters: "Collins became the first active player from any of the four major U.S. men's professional sports leagues to publicly reveal his homosexuality...But there has been no active player from the big four pro men's leagues - the NBA, the National Football League, the National Hockey League and Major League Baseball - who had come out until now."
• The New Yorker: " becoming the first active male player in any of the big four of American sports leagues—baseball, hockey, basketball, and football—to come out as gay."
• Boston Globe: "The center the Celtics traded to the Wizards in February is believed to be the first male athlete in the United States' big-four pro sports leagues to live openly as a homosexual while he's still an active player."
• Associated Press: "the first active player in one of four major U.S. professional sports leagues to come out as gay."
• Tuscon News Now: "Free agent and Washington Wizards center, Jason Collins, has come out as the first active openly gay athlete in one of the big-four American team sports."
• Washington Times: "Washington Wizard Jason Collins on Monday became the the first “active” player in the “big four” of professional sports"
• Grantland.com: "one of the big four American sports leagues has an openly gay active player for the first time."
• ESPN: "Collins, the former center for the Washington Wizards who is a free agent, became the first active athlete in the four major North American sports to announce he is gay."

Howsat? --Jayron32 21:15, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Great resources. I'm taking a bit of a break from this. If anything is added, it might be best in the body, keeping the lead simple, but perhaps moreso in Major professional sports leagues in the United States and Canada.—Bagumba (talk) 21:19, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

How about "...in a major American sports league (the NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL)." with links at each acronym to each league's page? I know that's a bit clumsy, but if we say just "major American professional team sport," that's too ambiguous. Who gets to decide what is "major" and what isn't? Players in the WNBA, for example, have already come out. Precisely what makes this story notable-- or, what makes Collins unique-- is that he is an active player in a male professional league that is one of the country's "big four" sports. If the "big four" term is unusual, we can think of another way to say it, but it's not "professional team sport," which could include the WNBA (already happened). Moncrief (talk) 20:51, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

It might have been a technicality, as gay usually refers to males and lesbian to females. In that context, there aren't any gay players in the WNBA.—Bagumba (talk) 21:15, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that's a technicality. Moncrief (talk) 21:29, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I actually really like "becoming the first active male professional athlete in a major American professional team sport to do so publicly" from the "Personal Life" section. Can we use that instead, maybe modifying it slightly in "Personal Life" so it isn't too repetitive? Moncrief (talk) 20:57, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I changed the lead to be similar to "Personal life" verbage. Feel free to massage for repetitiveness.—Bagumba (talk) 21:10, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Looks good to me! I'm not opposed to the "four" formulation either, especially with all the links above showing it's a common term. But I'm no longer concerned with the current version either. (And I know this sounds crazy and Wikipedia-self-important, but I've also seen it before: I wonder how many of the above news sources consulted Wikipedia to get the nugget of how we phrased it before writing a headline that includes "big four." You really can see the interplay between Wiki and the media in real time. I wouldn't say it if we weren't such a highly trafficked and famous site.) Moncrief (talk) 21:30, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

WP:CIRCULAR is a concern, but hard to identify sometimes esp. in cases where WP is actually true :-)—Bagumba (talk) 21:38, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Free agency

While Collins calls himself a free agent, he technically will not become one until July 1, when the July moratorium starts.[1]—Bagumba (talk) 01:14, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

I was wondering about a related point earlier. If he were to never get another contract, is it still fair to say that he came out as an "active" athlete? It almost sounds like wishful thinking / crystal ball to say that he is "active". --B (talk) 04:47, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Since he is still part of Washington, and not yet a FA, I believe that is the interpretation of active that is being used. At any rate,I haven't seen a source that has said he is not active.—Bagumba (talk) 04:52, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. This is all about the sources. Every one of which I've seen has described him as an "active" athlete. Wikipedia editors trying to divine whether he may, or may not, get another contract in the future is more WP:CRYSTAL than simply describing him the same way he's described in every single reliable source cited. --- Crakkerjakk (talk) 07:36, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Even if he retires before signing another contract, he is still currently active. Six Sided Pun Vows (talk | contribs | former account) 16:58, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

He might be considered "active" as long as he does not say he retired. If there are sources that make the distinction, it may be worth a mention or a footnote.—Bagumba (talk) 17:39, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

It wouldn't hurt to clarify "active" somehow. For people who don't follow sports, I'm not sure the distinction is necessarily obvious. Is "currently active" an improvement? I feel that "current" is a word that makes more sense to a broader audience. Though "active" seems to be the word the media is using, so I dunno. A clarification (mention or footnote, as noted above) could still be helpful. Moncrief (talk) 18:22, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

I usually avoid "current", as I would assume everything is "current" unless otherwise specified. I would define "active", but I haven't seen a clear definition. Frankly, I had the same concerns that he is not technically playing or "active" since the season is over for his team (though playoffs are still ongoing for others), but I would consider it OR to call him otherwise unless I found sources.—Bagumba (talk) 18:38, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

I think the criteria that news sources are using is the fact that Collins has clearly stated that he would like to keep playing, so there is a perceived element of "risk" that comes with his coming out. If he had said he planned to retire, then there would be no distinction between Collins and numerous others who waited until they were no longer playing (and had no hope/desire to continue to). It seems like a clear distinction to me, but I suppose others may view it more literally. --- Crakkerjakk (talk) 01:14, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

I've heard a radio talk show host say it's a PR stunt by SI to create a story, but I'm not even going to try to make it WP:V. There is this from Forbes.com that says "I don’t know if Jason Collins counts as an “active player”", but it's from a "contributor", he says "I don't know..." It seems WP:UNDUE to mention.—Bagumba (talk) 01:25, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Referring to someone's sexuality as a "publicity stunt" just rings as a cheap-shot. Unless this radio host is notable in their own right (for example, if they have a reliably sourced Wikipedia article of their own, that isn't just a self-promotional "stub", verifying that they're a legitimate member of the sports media and/or some sort of well-respected expert on "publicity stunts"), then I think we can chalk their remarks up as a cheap attempt to use the story to grab a little attention for themselves (aka: a "publicity stunt" of their own). I'm not sure if a "contributor" who doesn't "know" is going to cut it either. I suppose the information could be re-framed with what's already in the article: He's completed his 2012–2013 season with the Wizards and hopes to play for the 2013–2014 season, etc.., but I don't see a need to create an extensive sub-section on the issue. He's publicly stated that he wants to keep playing and I think that's the point that all the reliable sources are making. --- Crakkerjakk (talk) 01:52, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

It wasn't meant to be inciting by the host. It was along the context that other retired players have come out, so being "active", even if he might never be out while actually practicing with a team, is definitely more of a story. The guy has a WP article, but I figure it will hit print media eventually if it really is a viable thought. I'm not advocating it be in the article, I'm just putting it here for future reference since I ran across it and User:B above had brought up the point above re: "active".—Bagumba (talk) 02:13, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Ok, I see what you mean. Still though, He's said (from his perspective at least), that he plans to keep playing and I think that's the point. I'm still not sure about it being a "publicity stunt" even in the narrow context of referring to him as "active", since if Sports Illustrated honestly believed he was washed up, I'm sure they would have been more careful with the way they framed the story. It's not like anyone who cares about sports hasn't already heard of SI, and they posted the article online for free, so I don't see how they benefit in any way by saying he's "active" if they didn't think he had a realistic shot at another season. --- Crakkerjakk (talk) 02:52, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

New photo: better or worse

Previous photo

File:Jason Collins 2012 3.jpg

Current photo

The new photo that was swapped in by Crakkerjakk last night is not at all flattering to the subject, and is underexposed and out of focus. In my opinion, the previous photos is a better representation of Mr. Collins and is of better quality. - MrX 21:00, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

The new photo has a better view of his face, a plus. Focus is good enough for a thumbnail. However, in light of the fact that he came out, does he really need a picture with a "funny" expression? I'd be OK with swapping back if people consider it unflattering.—Bagumba (talk) 21:14, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Six of one, half a dozen of the other to me. As in that I don't like either photo and I wish we had a better one available. One doesn't show his face, the other shows it weirdly. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:22, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

The one on the left was better imo. Best, Jona^{talk to me} 21:35, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

I asked several photographers on Flickr to release the license for their photos and this was the only one that replied so far. I agree the Hawks picture isn't the best, but then neither are 99% of the pictures I found that were taken of him while he was playing (most photographers at a basketball game are trying to capture the "action", not to take a "pretty" picture). Regardless, the reason I asked the photographer of the Hawks photo in the first place is because I tend to believe the whole point of including a photo in the infobox of a BLP is to provide the reader with a general idea of what the subject looks like (as far as I'm concerned, the Celtics picture is essentially the equivalent to no picture at all). --- Crakkerjakk (talk) 22:23, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

I like the Hawks photo for the reason stated above. A goofy face is better than hardly any face at all. - Maximusveritas (talk) 22:30, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be a clear consensus for any particular photo, so I suggest we simply include both. We can add the original photo on the right, under the infobox. Any objections? - MrX 23:25, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

The Celtics photo is already included in the article. I cropped it to the standard 4:3 ratio because the crop shown here (which is awkwardly cropped at more than a 2:1 ratio) made formatting within the article difficult, and I didn't think losing part of his arm was a big loss to the photograph, since the primary purpose it serves, as of now, is to show him wearing #98. --- Crakkerjakk (talk) 23:37, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Follow up. I misunderstood your comment. Yes, I would object to moving any picture to the infobox that doesn't allow the reader to identify the subject's face, for the various reasons outlined above. --- Crakkerjakk (talk) 23:42, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I think that looks fine, at least until better CC photos are available. - MrX 23:49, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

To me, the picture on the left is better. Teammm ^talk
_email 04:18, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Team sport

This edit removed that Collins was the first gay to come out in a "major American professional team sport", reducing it to "major American sport". First of all, the original fomat was sourced. Second, there are major individual American sports too, which may or may not have gays that have come out. The original was more succinct and verifiable.—Bagumba (talk) 21:40, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

I noticed when this edit was made. I'm guessing the editor probably thought it seemed too "wordy" and the change was just a good faith attempt to simplify the sentence. But your point makes sense, so I don't have any problem with restoring the text to its previous form. Like I said, I think the editor who made the change probably just thought the simplified wording "sounded" better, so I don't foresee it being a problem if you revert.--- Crakkerjakk (talk) 00:34, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Wasn't intending to imply non-AGF, for sure. I had already changed it, but did want to leave a wordy edit summary.—Bagumba (talk) 00:45, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

No, I know you weren't. I just meant I didn't think there was much potential for it to turn into an edit war since it appeared to be more of a minor "prose" fix from their perspective, rather than an issue with the actual content. --- Crakkerjakk (talk) 02:57, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

. . . on the magazine's website on April 29, 2013, he came out as gay

Why is "gay" not linked to the wikipedia article on homosexuality?

68.50.119.13 (talk) 23:39, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Didn't realize gay was for the term and not the concept. Maybe "gay" should be a redirect instead with a hatnote to the the term at homosexuality, but I'll leave it to the experts. Changing this article as suggested.—Bagumba (talk) 00:49, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Is "On April 29, 2013, Collins became the first active male professional athlete in a major American team sport to publicly come out as gay.[1][2][3]" this really necessary in the introduction paragraph?

It seems out of place. Kind of just thrown in there. Also it is its own paragraph, just bam, a statement on sexuality. 68.50.119.13 (talk) 23:43, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

I think so. Per WP:LEAD, the lead section of an article should summarize its main points, and this is certainly that. It should probably be expanded with another sentence or two. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:01, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

I think the exact date can be 2013 instead, but haven't bothered because someone always will always like updating the latest news with exact dates in the lead while it is still "hot". The lead can be expanded, but I think his coming out is fine with one sentence only.—Bagumba (talk) 00:15, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

I think the sentence speaks for itself. Being the first active professional athlete playing in the major 4 to come out is of historical significance and, arguably, may very well become the most significant thing he'll be remembered for long after his basketball career is over. The Wikipedia article on Jackie Robinson (which is a Featured Article) includes the historical significance of his being the first African American in professional baseball in the very first sentence, so we probably shouldn't be too surprised, or get too bent out of shape, if the fact that Collins is the first pro-athlete to come out as gay eventually becomes the opening sentence in this article over time as well. --- Crakkerjakk (talk) 00:50, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

As far as the date, I agree that over time it will be sufficient if the lede simply lists the year 2013. However, since we're currently in the year 2013, it seems standard MOS to at least list the month: April 2013, and again, since we're in April, giving the exact date makes sense for now. After the current year is no longer 2013, then 2013 will most likely be sufficient. --- Crakkerjakk (talk) 00:50, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Good point on the dates.—Bagumba (talk) 00:55, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Magazine date

The article says it came out in the May issue of SI. But it happened in April. That sounds weird. not a big thing. 71.22.155.114 (talk) 06:22, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

The cover date was May 6, but it was released on April 29.[2]. It should be rewritten once people aren't so tied to having every single exact date known, maybe relegate the May 6 date to a footnote, if it is even needed at all.—Bagumba (talk) 07:28, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

There's nothing weird about it. The cover date of weekly national newsmagazines is always later than the date they appear on newsstands or online. Moncrief (talk) 14:45, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Jason Segel

The tidbit of Jason Segel was removed from this article before as "name dropping", but just readded. I took it out again. I do feel it's trivial to Collins' biography, though it is an important detail in Segel's. – Muboshgu (talk) 13:57, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Mentioning Segel being Collins' teammate at Harvard-Westlake is no different from a couple of thousand other Wikipedia biographies that mention "Person X was classmate of Person Y at University Z". Like mentioning that Omar Bradley played on the same Army football team as Dwight Eisenhower, for example. Or that Denzel Washington played college basketball under NBA coach PJ Carlesimo. It didn't "define" either career, but why not mention it? --bender235 (talk) 14:42, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Bradley succeeded Eisenhower as Chief of Staff of the Army, so the football connection is not as forced. A high school basketball player referencing notable basketball people they played with (e.g. Denzel's and Segal's case) at least shows the quality of people they interacted with in the context of basketball. In Collins' case with mentioning Segel, it's a reference to a person in a outside field when there is not any indication Collins was an aspiring actor in his youth or even now, nor is there indication that Collins said Segel impacted his life in any way. So It's suitable to mention Collins in Segel's bio, mention them as teammates in Harvard-Westlake School, but there is no benefit to mentioning Siegel in Collins' bio.—Bagumba (talk) 15:25, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Bender 235. It's an interesting connection. Why take it out? It's verifiable and adds something to Collins' early life section, which is pretty paltry at the moment. Moncrief (talk) 14:43, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

I disagree that this content should be included, even though there is no iron-clad policy requiring it to be omitted. Editorial discretion and consensus will have to guide us on whether to include it or not. I'm generally opposed to trivia, pop culture references and ephemera in an encyclopedia. - MrX 14:57, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Because it's trivial. We don't just add details to fluff up an article. Segel being his backup is nothing more than a coincidence and it adds nothing to Collins' bio. All of those "Person X was classmate of Person Y at University Z" articles you mention are wrong too, so we should be fixing those, not making the problem worse. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:58, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Actually, it's not that trivial. Harvard-Westlake was a Division III-A team state champ in 1996, a notable feat for a private school mostly known for its academic rigor, not its sports teams. Segel and Collins were instrumental to the team's success, enough to be written about in a pretty lengthy L.A. Times piece from that year: [3]. Maybe some of this information should be included. It isn't as if they were just two people who knew each other. They were both part of something that attracted media attention at the time for its notability. Moncrief (talk) 15:04, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Segel being his teammate "adds" as much to Collins' biography as mentioning his college major, or the fact that his twin brother also plays in the NBA. --bender235 (talk) 15:13, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

His major personally affects him. One would think a sibling being in the same field, who he played HS and college basketball with, and a twin no less, is impactful. Where is the connection of a high school backup turned actor, other than ... a random mention or being mentioned in the same newspaper article?—Bagumba (talk) 15:37, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Not everything that is verifiable needs to be mentioned. I agree the early life needs expansion, but let's add quality content and save the copyeditor's time later.—Bagumba (talk) 15:25, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

What would be "quality content" in the high school section? That he had 20 points against this team, and 15 rebounds versus another? Tell me. --bender235 (talk) 16:37, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Generally, it would include how he evolved as a player or things that later influenced him in life. For example Metta World Peace mentions him playing in a rough neighborhood, which seem relevant given that he has a reputation I would expect to see season to season evolution as a player, notable awards, notable performances in games such as school records, career highs, notable performances in playoffs, team accomplishments, etc. Playing backup behind a notable basketball player, or playing in front on a player who ended up better in basketball would be notable, not a backup turned actor.—Bagumba (talk) 17:06, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

That's just laughable. Who are you to decide what influenced a player's biography? Not even that: you want Wikipedia editors to judge on whether some aspect in a player's life influenced him to an extend it affect his later career. That is so absurd it is mind-boggling.

Russell Westbrook was high school teammates with a player (reportedly better than him) who died of a heart condition. Derrick Rose attended a high school whose star player two decades earlier was fatally shot on the streets. Now did that affect these players careers? Maybe yes, maybe not. Who are we to decide? And who are you to decided Segel being Collin's teammate didn't affect either of them? --bender235 (talk) 17:16, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

I am an editor here, and we operate on consensus. Nobody WP:OWNs this article.—Bagumba (talk) 17:22, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Guys, where for gods sake is the harm in mentioning this? You act like the "High school" section of Collin's biography spilling over with information, when there are in fact merely two sentences. Had Collins played high school basketball with a someone who also became an NBA player, we would of course mention that. We handle it just like that in every flipping sports biography (basketball, football, baseball, you name it). I could name literally a million of examples here (e.g., Detroit Lions quarterback Matt Stafford was high school baseball teammates with Clayton Kershaw and Jordan Walden—of course we mention that; MMA fighter Cain Velasquez was college wrestling teammates with Ryan Bader and C.B. Dollaway—of course we mention that; sprinter Henry Thomas was on the HS varsity together with Olympic medalist Mike Marsh—of course we mention that; because if not that, what else is a biography?). So now Collins was teammates with someone who became a notable actor. Why on Earth do you people act like it would destroy this article if we mention this? This is getting ridiculous. --bender235 (talk) 16:32, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Articles get cluttered when we don't stay on topic. The fact that Segel was on that team with Collins isn't relevant to Collins. His twin is more relevant since they grew up together. His major is more relevant because that's what he did in college, aside from play. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:01, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

I could go through those articles you mentioned and remove the references to famous high school teammates. I don't have the time as it so happens. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a valid argument. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:09, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Other stuff has merit if the rationale for why it was included in other stuff is convincing; merely being in other stuff is not.—Bagumba (talk) 17:17, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, try go through those articles and delete valid content. You'd get blocked from editing within seconds. --bender235 (talk) 17:21, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Basketball is a team sport. Collins did not win those CIF state championships, but his team did. Jason Segel was an integral part of that team. End of argument. --bender235 (talk) 17:18, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Nowhere in the LA Times article is it even implied he was "integral". Segel's basketball impact was in a dunk competition that had nothing to do with Jason. The only thing I can see that might merit an inclusion is the sentence "Jarron qualified for the competition ahead of Segel but deferred to his teammate", but that should be on Jarron's page, not this one. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:23, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

His bio is not a Wikipedia:Coatrack to drop in everything verifiable about his team.—Bagumba (talk) 17:24, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

The harm is to the quality of content, which is an acknowledged subjective opinion whether we include or exclude. As User talk:MrX said earlier, "Editorial discretion and consensus will have to guide us on whether to include it or not."—Bagumba (talk) 17:06, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

The harm is that it tends to turns this article into an INDISCRIMINATE collection of useless information. It's also UNDUE weight. As far as I'm concerned the editors wishing to add this content should demonstrate it's relevance to Collins biography. Did Segel influence Collins? We're they good friends? Simply being on the same high school team is just not worth mentioning. - MrX 17:32, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

So basically what you asking for is a WP:RS that quotes Jason Collins saying "playing high school basketball with Jason Segel changed my whole life". Okay, I see where this is going... --bender235 (talk) 17:38, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

I mean, right now, to sum up your guys' arguments: Jason Collins' twin brother affected his career, because we say so. Collins' high school teammates did not affect his career, because we say so. You guys seem not to realize that all of this is your discretional choice. There is no source that confirms Collins family, birthplace, choice of college, or whatever affected his career more or less than anything else. --bender235 (talk) 17:42, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

What we're looking for is for anything that suggests its more than a coincidence. A Google News Archive search of "Jason Jarron Collins" (not in quotations, just those three words), produces sources like this – Muboshgu (talk) 17:45, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Is his place of birth any more than coincidence? --bender235 (talk) 17:47, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

It's context. Please read Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biographies. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:48, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

No, your argument is just laughable.

Just to get this strait: by your definition, if we write "Jason Collins led his high school team, that included John Doe and Joe Smoke, who later also became NBA players, to CIF state titles in 1996 and 1997", that would be okay per every Wikipedia guideline there is. But if we write "Jason Collins led his high school team, that included Jason Segel, who later became a notable actor, to CIF state titles in 1996 and 1997", it all of sudden becomes trivial spam that clutters the article. I still don't get my head around that. --bender235 (talk) 17:54, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Please read WP:CONSENSUS. It's how anything gets decided here.—Bagumba (talk) 17:57, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Stop patronizing me. I've been contributing to Wikipedia long enough to know how things work. --bender235 (talk) 18:02, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Allow me to apologize for not seeing the humor in "because we say so".—Bagumba (talk) 18:23, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

It wasn't humor. It was a reminder that facts are not established thru consensus. It is not up to Wikipedia editors to judge on whether Jason Collins' high school basketball teammates affected his later life. --bender235 (talk) 18:28, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm with you, bender235, but I don't have the stomach for fighting against this kind of nitpicky deletionism anymore. I guess I could point out all the news stories from this week that mention Collins and Segel were teammates, or the fact that it's just one freaking sentence that helps paint a picture of the kind of adolescence Collins had, the milieu in which he grew up, but I'd rather just sigh. Moncrief (talk) 18:01, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

I know what you mean, but I'm not willing to quit the field to these stubborn folks who actually consider a section with merely two sentences to be "cluttered".

Plus, it's not like Jason Segel and Collins shook hands once or so. They were classmates and varsity teammates for years, so there's an obvious connection. This just has to be in this article. --bender235 (talk) 18:05, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

WP:WABBITSEASON?—Bagumba (talk) 18:23, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

WP:SPADE! --bender235 (talk) 18:26, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion. It's pretty much up to consensus, and it's subjective either way. The arguments are basically:

• Include Segel is notable, it's verifiable, other articles mention high school teammates who became notable in other fields, and the current high school section is too short. The two were part of a memorable championship team that spurred interest at the time. No harm is done.
• Don't include It's trivial to mention an actor who was a backup to Collins where there is no other acknowledged connection or impact to Collins' aside from being high school teammates and being mentioned in some sources because they were once teammates. No need to add trivia merely because the current section is sparse.

—Bagumba (talk) 18:53, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Survey

Should "Collins was a teammate of actor and comedian Jason Segel." remain in the article?

Include

1. Moncrief (talk) 18:58, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
2. Zagalejo^^^ 03:03, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
3. bender235 (talk) 10:00, 3 May 2013 (UTC), obviously.

Don't include

1. —Bagumba (talk) 18:56, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
2. - MrX 19:06, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
3. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:07, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

User:Moncrief had objected to "the current high school section is too short" being used as an argument. User:Bender235 earlier wrote "You act like the "High school" section of Collin's biography spilling over with information, when there are in fact merely two sentences." I have no problem if Bender235 wants to retract that point from consideration. My summary was a good faith attempt to represent points raised by both sides.—Bagumba (talk) 19:15, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

There's no cause and effect relationship in his (?) comment. I don't think he was saying the information should be included simply because the section was too short, rather that he perceived your (or whomever he was talking to) behavior as odd considering how short the section was. This whole argument over one sentence, however, is beginning to feel like a parody of Wikipedia at its worst. It's beyond strange that you would insist on writing the summary of the other side's argument in a dispute. That is by definition not good faith. Let people on that side write their own argument! Moncrief (talk) 19:34, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

I was being bold as the discussion was going back and forth and degenerating so I took it in a different direction. So we discuss any discrepancies and fix it. I think that is progress.—Bagumba (talk) 19:46, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't really get what you're saying above. I just know that when someone insists on writing both the pro and con arguments when they are clearly on one side and not the other (control issues?) -- and then having the gall to revert a change made to the pro argument by someone on that side of the fence -- that is, well, laughably bad Wiki manners. You might not understand how Wikipedia is supposed to work. Moncrief (talk) 21:20, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand why you call it "insists". I took a first stab at summarizing the arguments. It is not final, all input is welcome. Did you prefer to wait while the same arguments continued to repeat? By all means, rewrite the entire side if you feel it is completely biased.—Bagumba (talk) 23:03, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

"the gall to revert a change made to the pro argument": If you are referring to me, please be very specific which revert you are referring to.—Bagumba (talk) 23:14, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Why some editors take delight in deleting interesting bio info is beyond me. We are here to build a resource, not delete everything someone finds boring. Legacypac (talk) 19:15, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

"Interesting" and "boring" are both subjective, so let's have everyone just state their opinion and arrive at a consensus. I do not understand the benefit to paint the mere existence of the discussion as some injustice or atrocity when we are all here to improve this article, even if we don't all agree on how that is to occur.—Bagumba (talk) 20:00, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

You know, I don't have a problem with the information. It adds some color, it's verifiable, and it's even the primary topic of a USA Today article. Yes, you can run into problems when you go down the Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon route, but this particular fact doesn't seem egregiously bad. Zagalejo^^^ 03:03, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Still think it's a reach to leave it here, but I at least added why anyone should care so it doesn't seem like a total name drop.—Bagumba (talk) 22:45, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Edit request

Please correct the month to April in "from the original on Spril 30, 2013", reference Wertheim, Jon (April 30, 2013). Thanks. 78.43.86.56 (talk) 22:52, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Done Thanks.—Bagumba (talk) 22:58, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Glenn Burke

The text about Glenn Burke being the 1st gay man in pro sports has now been added twice. From what I can tell, The Atlantic is the only source that has reported this, saying that Burke was open to his team and the press knew but did not report it. Many sources report Collins as the first active male to publicly come out, with "publicly" being the key. If Burke was open, but it was never known publicly, regardless if it was because the press did not want to report it, then we should not call Burke an active player that was publicly out. Even the The Atlantic says he "came out to the world outside baseball in a 1982 article for Inside Sports"; he had retired already in 1979. Also,this 2010 report in SI said Burke "came out publicly to Inside Sports magazine and the Today Show" a few years after retiring. I think this would be suitable to expand in Burke's bio, or even in an article like Homosexuality in sports, but the current text of "Notably, Glenn Burke was out but the media at the time refused to cover this" seems to WP:UNDUE and even distracting from the majority view that Collins is the first to publicly come out while active. Note that being "publicly out" is more than just having teammates know, as John Amaechi has said his Orlando teammates knew he was gay.[4]—Bagumba (talk) 09:10, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

I worry we are bending over backwards to mislead our readers about something our sources suggest isn't quite true. It might be better to plainly say that Collins was the first yada yada whose coming out was widely reported by the media, rather that expect our readers to have an exact idea of what the term "publicly" means in this context. -- Kendrick7^talk 16:52, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

It is a reflection that the overwhelming majority of sources have said that Collins is the first to "publicly" be out. I agree it would be clearer if the distinction between being "out" and "publicly out" was spelled out. There was a similar point about clarity regarding the media calling Collins an "active player" in the #Free agency thread above. Unfortunately, I have not found a definition of "publicly out" in sources, and Wikipedia editors inferring and placing it into an article seems to border on WP:OR. Even The Atlantic never said he was publicly out. The use of "publicly", even if not explicitly explained, seems to be used consistently in stories about Collins, Burke, and Amaechi. Even sources for American football player Alan Gendreau only use the term "publicly" for him after the media publicized his orientation, even though he was open to his teammates for years. The concerted effort is to give WP:DUE weight to him being noted as publicly out; we need to be careful when WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS that enough reliable sources are reporting the alleged error. Until there are more sources, it would seem more appropriate to expand on this in Glenn Burke, Homosexuality in sports, or even in Coming out.—Bagumba (talk) 17:37, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, WP:RGW specifically suggests that's a problem when no reliable sources support an assertion, whereas The Atlantic is a journalistic pinnacle in the English speaking world, if you ask me. I originally edited in support of a footnote -- even a q.v. would perhaps be just as good -- but saying we'll just clarify the matter in certain articles that aren't even linked to from this one doesn't really allay my concern. I also think it's a tad insulting to imply to a run-of-the-mill person whose boss, co-workers, family, and friends all know that he or she is gay or lesbian, that they aren't "publicly out" just because their sexual preference hasn't made the cover of a major news magazine. I believe as a tertiary source, rather than merely a news aggregator, we have a responsibility to step back from the hype, and provide a broad summary of the relevant information at hand. -- Kendrick7^talk 23:59, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

We can say that Collins was "widely described" as the first player to publicly come out, with an explanatory note to discuss Burke and any other cases that happen to come up. I do feel a little uncomfortable making bold claims that hinge on hazily defined terms. Zagalejo^^^ 02:58, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Note: Notice has been left at WikiProject_LGBT for any insight on the term "publicly out".—Bagumba (talk) 03:36, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

A lot of my reservation with mentioning this is that I didn't like that it was only one source. However, I figured a legitimate story (in this day and age) would eventually be covered by others. The San Francisco Chronicle with their story "Burke's story timelier than ever" (it's only free if you click through Google) writes "Did Sports Illustrated get it wrong?" It doesn't explicitly say they are wrong, and doesn't discuss "out" vs "publicly out", but does treat Burke as some sort of pioneer. Maybe this will end up like Wataru Misaka, an Asian who took decades to be acknowledged as the first non-white NBA player, after credit had previously always been given to a black player. Until then, we need to be careful with when and how to report minority views. I'm now ok with including some mention, just not sure about the proper verbage. A clearly understanding on the concept of "publicly out", if any exists, would help.—Bagumba (talk) 04:22, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

I think I'm with Kendrick7 on this. The world was a different place in Burke's MLB days, and we do need to guard against anachronisms, but by any reasonable definition of "out" that I can imagine, Burke was out. That people other than Burke successfully concealed the truth from the public doesn't mean he wasn't out. The adverb "publicly" doesn't bother me; I think it helps draw a useful distinction and should be rather self-explanatory. Rivertorch (talk) 06:24, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

There is of course a massive distinction between "out" and "publicly out," and if it can be more gracefully worded in the article for those to whom it's not intuitive, great. A great percentage of people now "publicly out" were out to friends and family and even colleagues for years and years before they came out publicly. This is original research, so do not quote me, but I'd wager that for every Jim McGreevey, coming out in a news conference all at once and just as suddenly to the public as to his closest intimates, there are at least three Anderson Coopers, out to everyone directly around him for ages before announcing his sexual orientation in a forum meant specifically for on-the-record public consumption and redistribution. The distinction to me of "publicly out" is to have announced in a forum meant for widespread public consumption. By that standard, Glenn Burke as an active player does not count as "publicly out." He may have been out to lots of people, including teammates, but he never, as an active player, came out, well, publicly, in any mass-media sense. Is the distinction between Burke's story and Collins' not as clear to other people here? Moncrief (talk) 20:10, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

It appeared there might have been appeal to mention Burke to imply that Collins was not really the first. However, most sources are clear that Collins was the first to be publicly out. While Burke might have wanted to be publicly out while he was active, it did not happen until after he retired. It's becoming clearer to me that "publicly out" is very different from being "privately out", such as in the recent news on eight Premier League players. If they are different, is Collins being used as a WP:COATRACK to draw attention to Burke? Maybe a "see also" to Burke is sufficient, or I'd prefer for this to be in Homosexuality in sports, and a single "see also" to that more general article would suffice.—Bagumba (talk) 21:38, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

@Rivertorch: "The adverb 'publicly' doesn't bother me": Are you implying that Burke was publicly out? If not, are you advocating to mention Burke because he was out before Collins, but just not publicly?—Bagumba (talk) 21:43, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

The latter. Just to clarify, I think that providing a brief mention of Burke is useful here because it provides context for Collins's coming out. Sure, "publicly out" is different from "out", but the distinction is less clear when comparing notable figures from different eras. Clearly, "publicly out" was not an option for professional athletes in the United States three decades ago, no matter how open they were with everyone in their personal and professional lives, including journalists. But Collins demonstrated that it was possible to be out back then (even if the public didn't learn of it until later), and that is a meaningful bit of well-sourced knowledge that lends historical perspective to Collins's coming out story. Consider all the ballplayers before and after Burke who were genuinely in the closet. Burke and Collins are both pioneers, in a sense, and it would be odd to discuss the "out" status of either of them without mentioning the other. Rivertorch (talk) 23:09, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

But Burke isn't at all alone in being in the "even if the public didn't learn of it until later" category, nor was he the first. David Kopay was a (just-)former NFL player when he came out to much media attention way back in 1975. If we're broadening the category to "he told his teammates" (hard to prove or, more importantly, how many teammates being told makes it notable or not) or "the public found out later," then the category is unhelpfully broad. Collins is notable as a first (and he is notable) only when all the words/qualifiers are there, including "active" and "publicly." By all means, provide context and mention Burke, and Kopay (or Roy Simmons or Esera Tuaolo, just to name two; check out the LGBT athletes category for many more) and the number of other athletes like them who blazed a trail, but they do not belong in the same "active" and "publicly" category as Collins. I understand that Burke's era was different, so mention that too if you are providing context and history. (Edit: Per this link at least, Burke said he was fired from the team because "management suspected he was gay." That is a very long way indeed from being "publicly out.") Moncrief (talk) 01:15, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Moncrief (talk) 00:33, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable to leave that Collins is the first to be publicly out, but mention in the body that Burke came out before to his teammates. Do we mention The Atlantic saying he wanted to be publicly out, or do we leave those details for his own bio and not Collins'?—Bagumba (talk) 23:40, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

FWIW, I wouldn't worry too much about WP:COATRACK; historic claims deserve to be put in their proper historical context. For example, Christopher Columbus was lauded in the media of his time for having discovered America, but it isn't a coatrack to provide the context that, ya know, technically there were already people there, right? So I think it is fine to give a brief back story / overview here. Sure it's a WP:BLP, and we normally wouldn't want to distract from the subject, but it really just comes with pioneering the territory. I'd spin something out myself, but none of this is an area of my expertise, so I leave this whole matter in y'all's capable hands and will check back in a few months to see how things worked out. -- Kendrick7^talk 01:38, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

It's also so recent, it's hard to put him in historical perspective yet. I'd err on the side of being brief with mentioning others, and invite editors to place the bulk in Homosexuality in sports. Certainly, his bio should expand later if he really is viewed as a trend-setter.—Bagumba (talk) 01:58, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Rethinking this just a bit . . . Assuming we have really good sourcing about the multiple athletes mentioned by Moncrief, then maybe it would be better not to single out Burke for mention here, at least for now. I'm not sure. I admit to being rather intrigued by the piece in the Atlantic, a source I generally hold in high regard, but I'm starting to wonder if we shouldn't just go with what the sources say about Collins and leave it at that. If multiple sources, independently of each other, start talking about Collins and Burke in the same articles, then we could revisit it. In the meantime, we might say something to the effect of, "Although there had been openly gay athletes as early as [insert year or the 1970s or something], Collins was the first to come out publicly." Qualifying it like that might put Collins's coming out into clearer perspective without seeming to detract from its significance in any way. Rivertorch (talk) 03:50, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

There have been openly gay athletes (on various teams or non-teams, in various stages of openness) since time immemorial, so saying something totally broad like, "Although there had been openly gay athletes as early as [insert year or the 1970s or something]..." is a nonstarter. Really, why can't Collins just stand in his own category, as he is now: the first gay athlete who is actively playing in one of the top 4 U.S. professional sports to come out publicly? That's his niche, that's his achievement, and why not leave it as that, as, just as an example, the (of course well-researched and airtight, since it was probably their biggest scoop of the year and they didn't want to mess it up) Sports Illustrated cover story on him did? I mean, mention Burke if you want, but he and the others were not in the same situation, which I guess you now realize. Moncrief (talk) 16:14, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Since time immemorial? That would depend on how you define "openly". Even limiting it to the big four pro sports in the U.S., there have been so many players "since time immemorial" that it's quite impossible to determine who may have been open with someone. Burke seems like a special case because he reportedly tried to be out to basically everyone, but you seem to be implying that such players were a dime a dozen. Rivertorch (talk) 16:32, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm implying no such thing. I'm saying that a sentence like "Although there had been openly gay athletes as early as [1975, let's say]..." is not an example of ideal phrasing for a Wikipedia article. "Athletes" needs qualifiers, as an athlete could be your aunt who runs a half-marathon or an Olympic sprinter. That being said, I think we've resolved the main point here, and I know you were just throwing out an example and probably didn't think too closely about the phrasing. Moncrief (talk) 18:41, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

True. In my defense, I did say "to the effect of". I guess I could have thrown a "vaguely" in there, too. Of course, I was referring to this sort of athlete. Just to reiterate, I think it may be better not to single out Burke for mention at this time. (Trying now to envision any of my aunts running a half-marathon and finding myself bewildered and speechless.) Rivertorch (talk) 23:50, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

I think I hear that the text in the lead re: first public active ... is fine, so we can remove the tag from there. For Burke, I am ok with 1) not mentioning, 2) a footnote in the body that he came out to his team while active, 3) a see also to Burke, or 4) (least favorite) one sentence mention in body, not footnote.—Bagumba (talk) 16:43, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

I still don't get this focus on Burke, when he wasn't the first Big Four pro athlete to come out after playing, nor is it proven he was the first to be open to teammates. Why not mention David Kopay, who came out years before Burke, if you're going to delve into the history? This article makes absolutely no claims that Collins is the first pro athlete to come out at any time during his life; nor does it make any claim that other pro athletes weren't out to some or even all members of their own team while playing. Why go into this at all? I mean, go for a footnote if it's consensus, but the claims about Collins here are very specific and unmatched by other athletes. This is probably not the best analogy, but it's what I've come up with now: it's as if in the article about Hattie McDaniel being the first African American to win an Oscar, we insisted on putting in a footnote that she was not the first woman to win an Oscar. Well, no one is saying she was, so why go there at all? Moncrief (talk) 18:46, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

I notice someone tried to insert this again. I didn't like the wording that individual used, but if Jason Collins is not signed, then it is inaccurate to say that he came out while active. There are now a few sources pointing this out: [5][6][7] - Maximusveritas (talk) 17:57, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

They still say Collins was active when he came out. It's a distinction between "active" and "under contract". He is an active player, but he's still a free agent. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:12, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Why has this been changed again to say Collins is the second player to come out? That seems to be in direct conflict with the discussion here. 108.179.14.236 (talk) 15:32, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Bisexuality

We're calling him gay. Does that mean exclusively homosexual or bisexual? --Uncle Ed (talk)

He simply described himself as "gay" in the Sports Illustrated piece. I haven't seen anything that goes into more detail, and we shouldn't make any assumptions. Zagalejo^^^ 16:53, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

He's gay. Teammm ^talk
_email 06:59, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

what about Glenn Burke?

Sorry. This is completely redundant. My bad.

Semi-protected edit request on 9 February 2015

when he signed with the Nets and became the first publicly gay athlete to play in any of four major North American pro sports leagues since Glenn Burke in 1978. Mthorpnoe (talk) 02:25, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

As per the wikipedia page for Glenn Burke, Jason Collins was not the first openly gay player in one for the four major North American sports.

Burke was the first and only MLB player to come out as gay to teammates and team owners during his professional career and the first to publicly acknowledge it.[1][2] He died from AIDS-related causes in 1995.[3][4]

"They can't ever say now that a gay man can't play in the majors, because I'm a gay man and I made it."—Glenn Burke[5][6]

1 "Glenn Burke, 42, A Major League Baseball Player". New York Times. June 2, 1995. Retrieved August 22, 2013.

2 Barra, Allen (May 12, 2013). "Actually, Jason Collins Isn't the First Openly Gay Man in a Major Pro Sport". The Atlantic.

3 The Advocate: 14. Aug 18, 1998.

4 Luca Prono (2008). Encyclopedia of gay and lesbian popular culture. Greenwood Publishing Group. p. 44.

5 Keith Stern (2009). Queers in History: The Comprehensive Encyclopedia of Historical Gays. Jennifer Canzoneri. p. 78.

6 Vox, Dylan (December 11, 2006). "A High Five to Baseball Great Glenn Burke". This Week in Texas. Retrieved August 21, 2013.

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. -- Sam ^Sing! 02:37, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

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