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Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/2019_Serbia_FIBA_Basketball_World_Cup_teamEdit

Please weigh in at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/2019_Serbia_FIBA_Basketball_World_Cup_team.--User:Namiba 18:08, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Assistant coach medalsEdit

I thought I read somewhere that coach's don't get medals for national team events. Head coaches aside, it seems like clutter to add medals for assistant coaches e.g. Mike D'Antoni. Is this worth keeping for assistants?—Bagumba (talk) 08:57, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Leading a team to a medal is a coaching achievement whether the person gets a physical medal or not (and in the Olympics coaches don’t get medals). That said, I am personally of the opinion that assistant coach honors shouldn’t be in the infobox anyway. That majority of the credit (or blame) has always gone to the head coach. Rikster2 (talk) 10:48, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Article Rename request you may be interested inEdit

There is currently a RM at Talk:Mohamed Bamba#Requested move 18 May 2021 seeking consensus to rename article from Mohamed Bamba to Mo Bamba RedPatch (talk) 13:20, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Random height changesEdit

Currently, there are some IP users who are randomly adjusting the heights of basketball players without including an edit summary or citing sources:

The height-adjusting edits date back a long time, with 172.251.85.239, 174.252.192.44, 75.38.152.77, and possibly others. Is this a pattern of vandalism from different editors, or sockpuppetry? If it is sockpuppetry, is there an SPI? Crossover1370 (talk | contribs) 00:16, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

It's a common type of vandalism. If the IPs geolocate to a similar location, one might suspect it's the same person. WP:RANGE blocks are sometimes possible if a pattern develops.—Bagumba (talk) 01:06, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Proposal for player statsEdit

My current focuses on articles about college women basketball players, although this discussion have some impact on professional players as well.

It is quite common to add a section on historical statistics for basketball players. Many of these entries follow a similar format, although there are some custom formats. There may be some good reason for custom formats and I don't propose enforcing uniformity for uniformity sake, but there may also be instances where a brand-new editor, unfamiliar with standard presentations of this data, chooses their own format simply due to lack of knowledge of other articles. As I look at the standard formats I see some shortcomings. I created a new format as an example, and I would like you backfeedback from the community.

Heading Explanation NBA Legend WNBA Legend WBB player stat legend NCAA stats Arkansas stats
GP Games played  Y  Y  Y  Y  Y
GS Games started  Y[1]  Y[1]  Y  Y
MIN Minutes  Y  Y
MPG Minutes per game  Y[1]  Y[1]  Y  Y
ORB Offensive rebounds  Y
DRB Defensive rebounds  Y
RBS Rebounds  Y  Y  Y
RPG Rebounds per game  Y  Y  Y  Y  Y
PF Personal fouls  Y
DQ Disqualifications  Y
AST Assists  Y  Y
APG Assists per game  Y  Y  Y  Y
STL Steals  Y  Y
SPG Steals per game  Y  Y  Y  Y
BLK Blocks  Y  Y
BPG Blocks per game  Y  Y  Y  Y
PTS Points  Y  Y  Y
PPG Points per game  Y  Y  Y  Y  Y
TO Turnovers  Y[2]  Y
TPG Turnovers per game  Y
FGA Field goals attempted  Y  Y
FGM Field goals made  Y  Y
FG% Field-goal percentage  Y  Y  Y  Y  Y
3A Three point field-goals attempted  Y  Y
3M Three-point field goals made  Y  Y
3P% Three point field-goal percentage  Y  Y  Y  Y  Y
FTA Free throws attempted  Y  Y
FTM Free throws made  Y  Y
FT% Free-throw percentage  Y  Y  Y  Y  Y

References

  1. ^ a b c d Not available in NCAA stats
  2. ^ Not always

In the above table I've listed various statistics. The first column has an abbreviation appropriate for a heading, while the explanation provides more detail and is appropriate for a legend. the next three columns list potential legends:

  1. NBA Legend
  2. WNBA Legend
  3. WBB player stat legend

The first two are the most commonly used, and the third is one I created recently.

The next column identifies information sent to the NCAA for recording in their database

The final column represents the statistics presented in the media guide of Arkansas. (different schools may record different sets of information but many use the same provider so this is I believe a typical example)

Note that the NBA and WNBA legend are almost identical. The WNBA legend adds turnovers per game. The WNBA legend also suggests that an asterisk can be used to identify league leaders but this is rarely used for college players. Other than that, the content of the two legends is virtually identical although the format is slightly different.

I have used the NBA legend in many instances.

However, this portrays only a subset of available stats. I'm not about to suggest that all available stats should be portrayed, but I do propose a modest increment. I'd like to add minutes and rebounds.

I also slightly reorganize the order, starting with the first few columns unchanged, inserted minutes before minutes per game, inserting rebounds before rebounds per game, then the three shooting percentages and then finally the three other stats that are only presented on a per game basis. Sytia Messer is an example created using the proposed new formatSabbatino made a fair point that I should be demonstrating this in my sandbox, so here it is:User:Sphilbrick/sandbox


Reactions?--S Philbrick(Talk) 14:45, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Strong oppose, because there is already a template for that. - Sabbatino (talk) 14:58, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Sabbatino, I'm not following your point and I am not happy that you reverted my addition to Sytia Messer without discussion. Among other things it means that people interested in discussing this issue cannot see the example I created.
What do you mean there is already a template for that? If there's a template that provides the information I'm interested in presenting please point it out. S Philbrick(Talk) 15:23, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Other editors already showed you the templates in this discussion so I do not have to do it. In addition, you should use your sandbox to show examples, which is the purpose of it. And it does not matter that "you are unhappy for getting reverted", because you are supposed to follow WP:BRD. – Sabbatino (talk) 19:05, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Sabbatino, I am interested in including minutes as well as rebounds. I'm open to a debate about whether it's appropriate to include those items, but you reverted a template including those items with the edit summary "That's the wrong format. A completely different template is used for that". I am asking a good faith question. What existing template displays that information in a legend? I'm also very familiar with BRD. Reverting with a made up reason doesn't qualify as a good faith reversion. S Philbrick(Talk) 21:10, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
First of all, you added a table and not a template. Secondly, here are the legend templates – {{NBA player statistics legend}} and {{WNBA player statistics legend}}. We list averages for everything except for games played/started. Thirdly, your attitude and accusation indicates that it is not worth discussing anything with you, because you are supposed to comment on the content and not the editor. – Sabbatino (talk) 21:31, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Sabbatino, Huh? I added a template and a table. The template is {{WBB player statistics legend}}. The table consists of a heading, four seasons of data and career totals. My proposal is to add raw minutes and rebounds, while keeping minutes per game and rebounds per game. I'm reconsidering whether the minutes should be included, so I'm really mainly asking about the inclusion of rebounds. If it makes sense to include rebounds, we ought to have a template explaining headings. S Philbrick(Talk) 12:06, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
I did not see it when making a revert. However, that does not change a fact that there is already a {{WNBA player statistics legend}}, which is better. What is the reasoning for listing totals? And for statistics there is {{WNBA player statistics start}}, which is also better than the table that you imply on using. You did not even think about asking here first and added your preferred format (which has no consensus) to many woman basketball BLPs. But on the whole, we should merged {{NBA player statistics start}}, {{Euroleague player statistics start}} and {{WNBA player statistics start}} into a single template, because there is no reason to list TO (turnovers) for WNBA and PIR (for older season it was not counted). While writing this, I also saw that there are {{Basketball player statistics start}} and {{PBA player statistics start}}, which are basically the same as the NBA template but has no tooltips. – Sabbatino (talk) 08:46, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
What's the rationale for raw totals when there are averages? I don't think basketball has as much emphasis on magic number milestones for totals like other sports.—Bagumba (talk) 15:52, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
NBA social media has been promoting these milestones lately because of... LeBron. Howard the Duck (talk) 16:08, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Howard the Duck: For season, or just career? Career is better left for prose.—Bagumba (talk) 16:33, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Bagumba These are career totals, like most points in the playoffs, second most (I guess?) triple doubles in the playoffs, those kinds of stats. You're right though that basketball is one of the sports where statistics are primarily presented in averages instead of raw totals in terms of season-long or career. Howard the Duck (talk) 17:46, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Bagumba, I was trying to thread the needle between those stats that are to be presented as raw totals and ratios versus those that could simply be presented as ratios. It was my judgment that assists, steals and blocks were values where the rock totals weren't all that important and ratios were fine, while points and rebounds were worth including both. I also propose including minutes but I think I could be persuaded that minutes per game is sufficient. S Philbrick(Talk) 17:07, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
  • We already have templates: {{NBA player statistics start}} and {{Euroleague player statistics start}} which are practically the same. If there are changes to be done, we'd have to merge these two templates while keeping the current format, order and what stats to include. Howard the Duck (talk) 16:08, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
    Howard the Duck, Practically the same is equivalent to saying different. That's yet a different template which doesn't include a legend. I'm interested in including minutes (not just minutes per game) and rebounds not just rebounds per game, so would like that reflected in the legend. If we modify an existing legend it would make it not applicable to all of the cases where it is used and those stats are not shown. Wouldn't that be problematic for our existing uses.
    • I guess, but it seems that the only difference is that the Euroleague one includes the Performance Index Rating (different from Hollinger's Player efficiency rating) while the NBA's doesn't. Howard the Duck (talk) 17:48, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
      Howard the Duck, I agree those templates are practically the same as each other. I thought you were suggesting that those templates were the same as what I wanted to accomplish. My bad for my assumption. Neither of those templates include a reference to minutes or rebounds, so they are not suitable. Again, I'm open to a debate about whether those values should be shown, but it is extremely common to display such stats in summary stats about a player. In fact, some schools report the raw numbers and do not report the per game results, leaving the impression that the values are more important than the ratios. I'm happy to debate that issue, but let's debate that issue. Please stop telling me that there are existing templates covering what I want to do. S Philbrick(Talk) 21:14, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
      When most websites present career stats for a player divided per season, they do it almost exclusively on an average per game basis, not on cumulative totals. See for example, Grayson Allen's college career at sports-reference.com. Here's Scotty Pippen Jr.'s career stats playing for Vandy c/o ESPN. The existing templates already do the jobs perfectly well. Now if other organizations do otherwise, well, sure they do. Do we have to follow them? This boils down to WP:ILIKEIT arguments, but arguing on using the presentation most other WP:RS use is a good one. The Wikipedia templates, sports-reference.com and ESPN, if they cite the same statistic, present it on exactly the same order, with GP first, and PPG last. Howard the Duck (talk) 21:36, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
      Howard the Duck, "When most websites present career stats for a player divided per season, they do it almost exclusively on an average per game basis, not on cumulative totals."
      I haven't done an exhaustive review, but your strong statement surprised me. I've seen sites that present some stats on a cumulative total basis, some on an average per game basis, and some show both. There may be some websites that exclusively show per game values but there are others that show exclusively totals.
      The NCAA site is probably my source for 90% of statistics. It has the three main shooting percentages on both cumulative made in attempts as well as percentage. Stats such as rebounds, assists, blocks, steals and points it has cumulative totals for the year as well as a per game average. It has cumulative turnovers but no average although I don't typically report turnovers.
      When NCAA data is not available I typically go to media guides which sadly seemed to be going out of fashion. Most media guides have a mixture of cumulative values and per game averages. However, when both are not present it's more apt to be cumulative totals rather than averages. I have seen an occasional media guide that reports mostly cumulative totals but I can't say I've ever seen in media guide report only per game averages.
      I don't pretend to have surveyed everything, but I've often run into players without stats and searched high and mighty to find them, and my anecdotal conclusion is that counts and more common than ratios but not by much. S Philbrick(Talk) 23:16, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
    I actually kinda like the shorter template that doesn't have a full-blown legend and simply explains the headings with pop-ups, but I thought that was discouraged for accessibility reasons. It might be a side discussion but perhaps we also need to discuss whether we go with the templates with pop-up abbreviations versus those where the terms are spelled out in text. However, that discussion doesn't answer the question of how to include minutes and rebounds and whether there are good reasons for refusing to display such data. S Philbrick(Talk) 17:02, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
    Popups don't work w/o a mouse either e.g. touchscreens. A legend is still required.—Bagumba (talk) 02:44, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

I propose merging {{NBA player statistics start}}, {{Euroleague player statistics start}}, {{WNBA player statistics start}}, {{Basketball player statistics start}} and {{PBA player statistics start}} (there may be more of these, but I did not look for them) into a single template since there is absolutely no reason to have five (maybe more) almost identical templates. – Sabbatino (talk) 08:46, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. I was also contemplating this when reading the discussion. There does not need to be statistics templates for every single basketball league in the world - the templates are all nearly identical (not surprising since they all serve the same sport). Why not merge them all into a single template? In all templates, the fields that are filled in can be displayed in the legend. And the extra fields in the Arkansas media guide are likely unnecessary but they can be included in a merged template: {{Basketball player statistics start}}. Crossover1370 (talk | contribs) 02:24, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

It appears that the creator of this discussion decided to ignore this discussion and has continued adding his/her preferred format to woman basketball BLPs. In addition, I cannot believe that an administrator would do such a thing and start acting disruptively by ignoring other editor's opinions. – Sabbatino (talk) 13:42, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Sabbatino, There are quite a few different templates, as you know because you listed a handful of them. You made a proposal that they all be merged, but while one person agreed, I don't see anything that remotely constitutes a consensus. In fact, it appears that this discussion is dying without a consensus so I intend on improving articles until such time as the community reaches an agreement on template usage. S Philbrick(Talk) 22:03, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't see a compelling reason for women's basketball to display raw totals for minutes, points, rebounds or anything beyond games and games started. Averages are sufficient and preferred.—Bagumba (talk) 00:59, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

+1. I suppose this (three people plus the great majority of the internet) should act as a consensus now? Howard the Duck (talk) 13:47, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
Howard the Duck, Sorry, I don't think that's remotely the case. Three individuals might conceivably constitute a consensus in some obscure working project covering a handful of articles, but there are many thousands of basketball articles and hundreds if not thousands of editors. We are discussing some minor issue, we are discussing how one of the key components of autobiographies are to be presented. The desert is far more discussion than has occurred so far. Your argument that it's three people plus "the great majority of the Internet" hasn't been established. I haven't seen any evidence presented that it's the majority of the Internet, and I cited anecdotal evidence that it's the minority. NCAA statistics plus almost all media guides include a mixture of the two main types of information. I saw said media guides that include only raw totals not per game averages. That's admittedly a small sample, but it does mean that it's not true that the "great majority of the Internet" presents only per game results. I'm generally on board with your observation that "...arguing on using the presentation most other WP:RS use is a good one.", I'm simply observing that there are many many reliable sources reporting raw totals per season. S Philbrick(Talk) 14:50, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
Sphilbrick you'd have to concede that ESPN.com arguably is where people go to get their basketball fix, aside from actual league/conference websites. As illustrated above, all of these do not include per season/tournament totals but xPG. Even The Spanish article for Pau Gasol uses a hardcoded version of the English basketball stats template. A great majority of Wikipedia basketball bios that have stats on them use any of the stat templates provided above, and I'll highly recommend not to change these, or use another format for articles that do not have one, to another template, much less a hardcoded one that the rest of the internet do not use. I'd probably concede that career totals for statistical categories can be added though, on top of the career averages. Howard the Duck (talk) 15:06, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
Howard the Duck, No, I wouldn't have to concede that. I visit ESPN extensively, mainly for schedules for upcoming games, scores for recent and historical games, and write ups. I did see you provided a link to Scotty Pippen Jr.'s career stats and I was surprised in two ways, first by the shock of realizing that as much work as I have done with statistics I had never seen that site before in my life, and by my negative reaction to the format. I don't doubt that there are people who visit that site for statistics, but I think it looks terrible. However, what you areand I happen to look at isn't evidence of what the consensus preference might be — we need better evidence than what a couple people like to look at. S Philbrick(Talk) 16:23, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
Sphilbrick How about NBA.com? My man Luka's stats shows what could elicit a negative reaction from you. The default is "Per game" (as it should!) but for people like you who love totals, you can switch it up to what kind of presentation you want. NBA.com though knows that when people look for stats, they are looking for per game averages. Howard the Duck (talk) 16:32, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
Howard the Duck, I have a different take away. That site makes it extremely easy (with two easy clicks of the mouse) to convert from per game to totals or back. Print publications (and media guides are essentially electronic presentation of print publications) have to make a decision whether to present per game or totals or both. They opted for both in some circumstances and totals in some circumstances but almost never per game only statistics. A website such as NBA.com can provide both options and let the user select. Wikipedia is closer to a website than to a print publication, so it would make a lot of sense for us to follow the NBA.com model and offer both with the conversion as simple as a mouse click. Ideally I'd like the default to be a user preference, which should not really be hard, but if the evidence suggests per game values are slightly preferred I'd be happy making that the default.
NBA.com may have concluded that readers prefer per game values,[citation needed] but they definitely did not conclude that readers should only be presented with per game values. Essentially those that are voted so far are saying that we don't want to show totals. S Philbrick(Talk) 17:34, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
Sphilbrick I suspect that NBA.com generates its stats webpages off a database, SQL and all. For Wikipedia, we usually don't do that, and it's usually WYSIWYG. Wikipedia can also switch around totals and averages, but we'd be stuck with the NBA.com default of showing averages and hiding totals, something that is frowned upon. Howard the Duck (talk) 18:11, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
The alleged majorty of the internet doesn't much matter unless they !vote here.—Bagumba (talk) 16:15, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
Bagumba, Of course, but I get the impression that some people are supporting ratios only because of their perception that this is consistent with what the majority of the Internet reports. I would hope that reviewing the facts, showing that ratio only values are rare would inform their !votes. Would you disagree? S Philbrick(Talk) 17:20, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
See my comment below re: media guides.—Bagumba (talk) 17:31, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Media GuidesEdit

I did a cursory review of the media guides. I selected them by doing an Internet search and looking at the first 10 in the list. The schools reported stats on almost identical formats. Some schools reported game started as well as games, although some reported only games. Some broke out rebounds into offensive and defensive in addition to totals some reported only totals. There are also some minor differences such as whether fouls and foul outs were reported.

However, my conclusion is that for these media guides the important stats are either reported as both raw numbers and ratios, or as only raw numbers. I didn't find an example of a single staff in the media guides that is reported only as a ratio to games. Obviously, I concede that ESPN has a location reporting only ratios, but that seems to be the exception.

School Shooting percentages Rebounds Assists TO Blocks Steals Points
1 Creighton[1] both both only raw only raw only raw only raw both
2 Virginia Tech[2] both both only raw only raw only raw only raw both
3 NYU[3] both both only raw only raw only raw only raw both
4 Tennessee[4] both both only raw only raw only raw only raw both
5 Maryland[5] both both only raw only raw only raw only raw both
6 Clemson[6] both both only raw only raw only raw only raw both
7 Lasalle[7] both both only raw only raw only raw only raw both
8 Connecticut[8] both both only raw only raw only raw only raw both
9 Arkansas[9] both both only raw only raw only raw only raw both
10 Georgetown[10] both both only raw only raw only raw only raw both

References

  1. ^ "2020 21 WBB Guide Web (PDF)" (PDF). Creighton University Athletics. Retrieved 2021-06-14.
  2. ^ "Media Guide" (PDF). vatech. Retrieved 14 June 2021.
  3. ^ "2006-07 WBB Media Guide (PDF)" (PDF). NYU Athletics. Retrieved 2021-06-14.
  4. ^ "Media Guide" (PDF). utsports.com. Retrieved 14 June 2021.
  5. ^ "Media Guide" (PDF). umterps.com.
  6. ^ "Clemson Media Guide" (PDF). clemsontigers.com.
  7. ^ "LaSalle Media Guide".
  8. ^ "2021 Media Guide (PDF)" (PDF). University of Connecticut Athletics. Retrieved 2021-06-14.
  9. ^ "Arkansas Media Guide" (PDF).
  10. ^ "2018 19 WBB Media Guide Web (PDF)" (PDF). Georgetown University Athletics. Retrieved 2021-06-14.

I never understood schools not computing averages. If you look at DIVISION I MEN’S BASKETBALL RECORDS from NCAA for 2020–21, starting at p. 38, all the annual leaders are listed by average. Maybe some oild-time SIDs still don't know how to use spreadsheets.—Bagumba (talk) 17:29, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Bagumba, Thanks for pointing that out. I note that the list includes five statistical values: games, field goals, free throws, points, average. Ignoring games because by definition it wouldn't make sense to express that as a per game ratio, three of the four statistics are reported as totals and only one as a ratio. One more example showing that totals are more ubiquitous than ratios. Of course the annual leaders are determined by average, I'm not opposed to averages, they have the place. I'm simply pushing back on the odd notion that only averages should be presented. S Philbrick(Talk) 17:52, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Caleb HoustanEdit

An editor who is connected to the subject keeps adding the player's middle school at Caleb Houstan. – Sabbatino (talk) 19:01, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Unnecessary for the lead. The middle school can be stated in the high school career section: "After graduating from David Leader Middle School..." or omitted entirely. Crossover1370 (talk | contribs) 23:49, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
I've warned them that it at least needs to be sourced. It's another issue whether it's even relevant.—Bagumba (talk) 04:59, 4 June 2021 (UTC)


hey man! wassup ive changed it, please do not change it because it means alot to him, \ thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Corey overtime (talkcontribs) 14:15, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if it means a lot to him. Usually, the middle school that someone attended is not relevant. Can you cite a reliable source to prove that he attended David Leader Middle School and that it is somehow notable? I have also reported you at WP:AIV because you have continued to make such edits even after having been warned on your talk page. Crossover1370 (talk | contribs) 19:10, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

New parameter at Template:Infobox basketball biographyEdit

A new parameter has been added to {{Infobox basketball biography}} without any discussion. I have started a discussion at Template talk:Infobox basketball biography#Parameter for birth name regarding the matter. – Sabbatino (talk) 20:45, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

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