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Hidden Champion: Article about Ross W. Clarkson

Hello, Ross W. Clarkson is a cinematographer, producer, actor, writer and director who has been working nonstop in the movie business for three decades. People underestimate him because he started in Asia and was credited under different names. When I started writing my article on him I didn't get along with the wayback machine and therefore I kept it short and I stuck to information that can be found on IMDb. Subsequently the article was quickly flagged for lacking of references. Little later it was added that Clarkson was perhaps not notable. Meanwhile I have learned to deal with the wayback machine and subsequently I have delivered references. (More is to come.) The quantity of information available about Clarkson indicates plenty of notability. Would somebody please re-evalute the overhauled, extended article? NordhornerII NordhornerII (talk) 18:46, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Plot summary for musical film

There is a DYK in progress for Score: A Hockey Musical which has been tagged for long plot. I've gotten the Synopsis down to 749 words, 49 words above the maximum recommendation of MOS:PLOT. 49 words also happens to be the total words of the song titles I included in parenthesis. I was wondering if I might be able to weasel my way around that, as I wanted to include where the songs fit in the context of the plot – it has been noted (sourced) in the article that the songs advance the plot. This is the first time I've written for a musical film and would appreciate any advice. Thanks. – Reidgreg (talk) 15:04, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

We don't include the song titles in the plot, since there is a Music section. It's not only redundant but bloats the plot summary (as we see here). Mike Allen 15:18, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think we have any guidelines on handling musical films. The only similar guideline I can think of is excluding actors' names in plot summaries, which to me a separate matter. If it's a musical film, songs seem to me to be the key highlights throughout, so I don't think there are explicit policy/guideline grounds to oppose their mentions. Open to further dialogue, though. It's not a common case. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 16:16, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

If it is necessary to know what songs come when to understand the plot then I don't think it is wrong to include them, but I do think this is a similar situation to including actor names in plot summaries. I would be more concerned with the plot summary being overly detailed and focused too much on scene-by-scene minutiae. The 700 word limit is at the top end of a range to allow for more complicated plot summaries, which I don't think is the case here. I would focus on summarising the plot more and only make note of key songs where it is actually important for understanding the film. - adamstom97 (talk) 17:03, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

The reason I think actors' names are a separate matter is that after mentioning the starring actors' names, it became indiscriminate to mention all supporting actors too. So without a clear line in the sand, it was an all-or-nothing approach. "All" was too indiscriminate and wordy, where "nothing" worked if we had the "Cast" section already. We could still tie the starring actors to the key characters in the lead section when writing the much-shorter premise.

Here, songs seem to me to be the backbone of a musical film and are as relevant as the events in between them, making their naming different from naming even minor roles. I'm not sure how exactly one decides which songs are actually important, since the songs seem like key attention-grabbing highlights throughout the film. Film events and songs seem intertwined to me, like how a structurally-complex film's structures and events are intertwined (e.g., Pulp Fiction), warranting some word-count flexibility. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 18:00, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

If it is a musical film by definition of what a musical film is all songs advance the plot, the lyrics of the songs are part of the text of the story. For a plot summary listing the songs is unnecessary and are somewhat jarring parentheticals that really add noting in understanding when describing the plot. See plot summaries for other musical films such as The Sound of Music for examples of why the songs are not needed in the plot summary. Geraldo Perez (talk) 18:13, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

That's a fair example of a musical film that does not have songs in the plot summary, but that does not in itself prove that songs shouldn't be in the summary. Just that it could be done without them. However, it's a little weird that that Good Article doesn't even list the film's own songs within it. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 18:18, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

The song lyrics are basically part of the script for musical films. My Fair Lady provides a counter example that shows the song titles in the plot text and does show how jarring it is to read the plot description when they do it. A FA without songs in the description is Frozen II. There is no rule that I could find that says "don't do it", but I think descriptions read and flow much better without the parenthetical interruptions. Geraldo Perez (talk) 18:45, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I think Erik's point about actor names in the plot summary actually does apply to songs as well. While the point of songs in a musical is to move the plot and character development along, it is not necessary to list all the details of how this is done when summarising the plot. I think an apt comparison would be an action film where the action sequences are the key set pieces used to develop the plot and characters. That doesn't mean we explain each action sequence in great detail and include the behind-the-scenes name for the sequence in parenthesis. Just like any plot summary, some action scenes will need more details to be explained than others, and some may not need to be included at all for our readers to understand the film. The same is true for the songs in a musical, where some will need to be fully explained but others may not even need to be mentioned in a good summary. So what happens if one of the key songs in the film doesn't actually need to be explained as part of the plot summary, but some of the less noteworthy ones do? That is where we run into the problem Erik mentioned about actor names and determining where to draw the line. The priority of the plot summary should be to summarise the plot, not include characters it shouldn't just so we can list their actors' names or include song details it shouldn't just so we can list all of the song titles. Especially when there are separate sections in the article that can discuss the cast and songs with appropriate weight and focus.

I think the current summary that we are discussing goes against the recommendations at MOS:FILMPLOT and once it is updated to summarise what happens in the plot rather than explain the scene-by-scene breakdown of each song it will be a much better summary. At that point, there may still be mentions of every song in the summary and so there could still be an argument for including all of the song titles, but that won't necessarily be the case and if it is then there is still an issue of being indiscriminate. I would still argue that it is better for the plot summary to focus on the plot and the appropriate place to discuss individual songs and their use in the film will be the music section which can present information on the most notable songs, according to sources, without having to work around or twist the plot summary. - adamstom97 (talk) 06:28, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

The action-sequence point is fair, though I think songs are more delineated as signposts in the film. We don't list action sequences like we list song titles.

But if others agree that song titles shouldn't be named in plot summaries, then that's the consensus. At the end of the day, we are trying to build an encyclopedia. We oppose lengthy plot summaries because if one really gets detailed, a summary could easily be thousands of words long. We wanted to cap it off. Musical films definitely weren't part of the consideration for writing MOS:FILMPLOT. I can see the benefit in indicating the songs in some way.

Can we not think of a way to tie them together, other than naming them in running text? Like hover-over text, footnotes, anchor links? Like I checked out Encanto, and it's interesting how we never say at what point "We Don't Talk About Bruno" occurs, which seems to me to be an omission. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 12:31, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks everyone for your input and advice. I was starting to think about calling them parenthetic citations to the songs (WP:PAREN) but I see those were depreciated a few years back. Another editor helped get the summary below 700 words (including the parenthetics). I'm going to keep them for now and will probably footnote them if challenged down the road. – Reidgreg (talk) 21:12, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Short film missing a review section

Hey, this article Possibly in Michigan is missing a review section.

Can I get some help?CycoMa1 (talk) 19:20, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Hello! Have you looked at Google Scholar results? There seems to be some potentially relevant results. You can cross-reference them with WP:LIBRARY to see which ones you can access. Link Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 19:59, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Recentist highlighting of films currently playing

At Special:Permalink/1225339037 § Highest-grossing films, I came across this note (which uses automatic date calculation to display the most recent week):

† Indicates films playing in theatres in the week commencing 28 June 2024.

I find this to go directly against WP:RECENTISM, and to introduce a maintenance/sourcing nightmare (it's unclear how much it's being updated, and could easily begin misinforming readers if abandoned for even a short while).

Dismayingly, this is not an isolated problem — a quick search shows that more than 50 articles use the same note.

Therefore, I'd like to ask two things:

1. For purposes of having a consensus to reference, do others agree that such notes are inappropriate?
2. Assuming that there is such consensus, is anyone from this project willing to remove them all?

Best, Sdkb ^talk 22:18, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

If you are making an ordered list and some of those elements are in the process of potentially changing order then that is something noteworthy to be pointed out. The box office numbers for films that are still playing in theaters are going to change every day and will likely be updated at least once a week. I don't see how that has anything to do with WP:RECENTISM. - adamstom97 (talk) 22:48, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Writing credits in the lead intro of A Quiet Place

It was suggested that the current phrasing in the lead intro might not be pristine due to the screenwriting duo being named first. The order of the writers shouldn't be changed as Beck and Woods are the duo who conceived the story and wrote the script, which they sold to the producers. As cited, the producers gave the script to Krasinski as an actor, and he later contributed elements to the script, thus getting a writing credit. The two credited parties did not write together nor have a similar level of contribution to the writing. Changing the order or using "alongside", for instance, is inaccurate and misleading.

To change the flow of the first sentence, an option could be: "...directed by John Krasinski and written by Scott Beck and Bryan Woods from a story they conceived. Krasinski also has writing credit..." But that is an unusual intro structure to a film article, as we typically list all credited writers together. What are your thoughts and suggestions? Lapadite (talk) 11:54, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

There is no requirement to put all of those details in one sentence. You could also say something like this: "...directed by John Krasinski. The screenplay was written by Scott Beck and Bryan Woods, with contributions by Krasinski after he joined the project. The plot revolves around..." You should also probably be discussing this at Talk:A Quiet Place rather than here. - adamstom97 (talk) 12:08, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the first sentence, the writing credits aren't the most noteworthy context; the premise is, so it is a bit much on harp on the credits at the very beginning. (See my essay at WP:FILM1STSENTENCE for relevant policies and guidelines.) So I would delay mention of writing credits to later in the first paragraph, which may allow for more flexibility in wording. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 13:26, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

@Adamstom.97 and Erik: I agree, but as there are editors who are sticklers for using the same format across all articles even if it doesn't suit a particular article, and get into revert wars overt it, I didn't want to change it significantly without a discussion here. I'll make the edit that adamstom suggested. I think, for the majority of scripted films, the writer(s) is the second most noteworthy content for a lead intro. A premise comes from a screenplay, and if the premise is noteworthy, who wrote it is equally, if not more so. This film is defined by the story and screenplay, so I think naming the writers in the intro is appropriate. Lapadite (talk) 10:46, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

To clarify about my essay, the point is to immediately connect the reader with the topic in the first sentence. Non-household names are not very likely to provide that connection, meaning here that naming Beck and Woods doesn't mean anything to most people (as reflected by reliable sources). They're named at some point and occasionally focused on, but the main connecting point of this film is the novel premise, monsters who hunt by sound. So much more has been written about that and the related moviegoing experience. Of course someone who knows A Quiet Place well won't really care about the order and presentation of details, but if someone has never seen it and only has a vague understanding, that first sentence mentioning the premise will make the connection. That's how I think the cited policies and guidelines would apply. We can look at coverage, including their headlines and bodies of text, about placement, to see where the weight lies. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 14:09, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, notable elements can vary per film and an article's lead should reflect that. The issue from article to article is disagreements on what aspect of a film is more noteworthy than another, and some editors wanting to standardize the structure of the lead. It's not uncommon for drive-by editors to change it to the common format of director, writer, stars, plot.

The premise is currently about 3 lines of text, so I think it should be trimmed if it's moved to the second sentence. I'd have the writers mentioned alongside it. Much of the media / marketing did focus on the premise and the famous actor who directed it, not the relatively unknown writing duo who conceived the story and wrote the screenplay. Many articles only named the director as a writer: "directed and co-written by Krasinski". As I'm sure we all know, that's a common promotional practice, particularly for bigger names. My point is that as the notable premise came from the duo, and the director's frequently named as a writer in the media, the premise and writers go hand in hand and should be mentioned alongside each other, either in the same sentence or consecutively. Plus, the multiple articles reporting the journey of the actor-director coming on to the project may support the noteworthiness of mentioning who conceived the premise and screenplay. Lapadite (talk) 05:39, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

RM discussion for Wish (film)

An editor has requested that Wish (film) be moved to Wish (2023 film), which may be of interest to this WikiProject. You are invited to participate in the move discussion. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 13:37, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Why is there no importance scale

Like every other wiki project has a importance scale why doesn’t this one have one 31.121.245.19 (talk) 14:13, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Oh, man, that takes me back. I think we removed it back around 2007-2008. You can see the explanation as to why here: WP:FILMCORE (though I don't think anyone is paying attention to "core" topics nowadays either). Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 14:19, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

AllMovie has Changed

So I'm not sure if this is brought up recently as I haven't seen in the archives, but AllMovie has changed. They've basically lost all their reviews and even pull their film summaries from Wikipedia. I suggest if we have any major articles or GAs/FAs using it as a source, we immediately pull from Archive.org versions and maybe reflect on its current status as a source for...well anything really. Sad to see most of the internet turn to crap in the past few years. Andrzejbanas (talk) 02:55, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

I think it's probably a testament to how film coverage has evolved on Wikipedia in recent years, as opposed to turning to "crap". We are a victim of our own success in some ways, because sources we depend on have started to depend on us which complicates stuff. I recall an incident where I sourced the List of box-office bombs using Filmsite, with corrections from other sources. The bloke who runs it then ditched his figures and adopted ours! Gave me a massive headache at the time. Reading their explanation it appears they are in a transitional phase, so their use of Wikipedia may be just a stop-gap. Even if it is a permanent feature the Wikipedia stuff appears to be clearly highlighted so I don't think it's that much of a problem if editors reference other elements. In cases where the main description was cited, as you say we'll have to locate another source or retrieve it from Internet Archive. Betty Logan (talk) 06:11, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Yeah. More of a heads up to everyone to maybe go back an archive some old articles really. We'll see how it goes, but I can't imagine them bringing back reviews. Andrzejbanas (talk) 06:42, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

I have essentially made it a habit to archive every URL I add as a source to Wikipedia. Occasionally I don't have the time, but as this shows, it's becoming more of a necessity these days. If time allows, I'll archive it at both Wayback and archive.today. Sometimes one does better than the other when it comes to capturing certain pages. --GoneIn60 (talk) 13:26, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

I wonder if there is a reason why Wikipedia doesn't have its own archive service? It seems a no-brainer, unless it's the cost. Betty Logan (talk) 13:53, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Might be a risk of hosting non-free content? Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 14:11, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

And cost I'm sure. These archiving sites are always asking for donations, of which I try to give to every couple years. Hopefully more archiving sites pop up in the future. Some of these are likely to die off eventually. -- GoneIn60 (talk) 15:21, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

I've honestly been using archive.org more than google to search for sources lately. While going through my film Good Articles over the years (!), it was really easy to see myself slowly moving in that direction when it came to citing sources. If we ever lose Archive.org, it'll be a major loss for the internet as a whole. Anyways, yeah, prepare for a lot of archiving for AllMovie if you haven't. Biographies are lost, Reviews are lost, genres are definitely just pulled, ratings have all changed, its barely the same site it was even a few months ago. Andrzejbanas (talk) 00:48, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I was curious, so I looked up one of the Shrek films (a franchise that genre warriors have heavily targeted in the past). Here's an archived copy from late 2018 and then the the entry as it exists today. Ridiculous how it now lists 5 primary genres, one of which is repeated as a sub-genre. Can't say with any confidence we can cite it for anything right now, unless we're lucky enough to know the original URL and it has been archived. -- GoneIn60 (talk) 09:17, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

I think "enshittification" was the term you were looking for. I came to this project to note a discussion at the reliable source noticeboard that would be of interest here. I was unaware that there was an existing local thread.Sam Kuru (talk) 13:46, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

• Question: Allmovie has deleted the "natural horror" sub-genre, leaving the bulk of List of natural horror films unsourced. Is there a tool for adding Wayback Machine links en masse? Betty Logan (talk) 10:20, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

  Nevermind, I found the tool. I am probably the last person to realise this, but if you go into the article history there is an option to "Fix dead links". Betty Logan (talk) 11:03, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Category:Film templates parameter issues and Category:Film template tracking

Participants of WikiProject Film might be interested in adding these categories and their subcategories into their watchlist.

• watch Category:Film templates parameter issues
• watch Category:Film template tracking

This is part of the recently created category tree under Category:Template tracking by topic. —⁠andrybak (talk) 07:03, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Plot discussion on the Pinocchio page

There's a discussion regarding the plot summary of the 1940 Pinocchio film, which can be found at Talk:Pinocchio (1940 film)#Plot. Input from project members would be appreciated. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 05:41, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Film infobox and crew parameters

Regarding Template:Infobox film, recently there have been distinct requests for additional crew parameters. Based on some brief discussion, I updated the notice template at Template talk:Infobox film and moved it to the top. (I think the formatting could be better, though.) I wanted to bring it up here for full transparency. Perhaps it's worth discussing a more standard way to name crew names in the article body? I've generally been in favor of a crew list like we have a cast list, with the infobox only naming the "starring" actors and most well-known crew roles. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 18:38, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm not exactly opposed to such listings, but I do wonder what the bright line (if there will even be one) is going to be between crew appropriate for inclusion and crew inappropriate for inclusion. DonIago (talk) 19:21, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

It could look like MOS:FILMCAST in some way, since we do have to cut off a cast list similarly. For Panic Room, I went with a crew list based on what the author writing about Fincher listed, and not beyond that. (Though I don't know if there could be a nicer-looking crew-list template.) It doesn't mean having crew lists everywhere, maybe allow it if there is a decent-sized "Production" section first, or if most/all crew members have blue links. I just think something like this could sidestep the infobox requests, so the most relevant names could be mentioned somewhere at least. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 20:24, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Grave of the Fireflies

A discussion regarding the plot summary for Grave of the Fireflies is taking place at Talk:Grave of the Fireflies#Plot section, revisited. Input from project members would be very much appreciated. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 11:48, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Discussingfilm

Is Discussingfilm.net a reliable source? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Barrysed (talk • contribs) 23:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

No it’s a blog site. See WP:SPS. Mike Allen 12:49, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

CfD discussion

Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 June 8#Category:Films with scents has been sitting with little response and I'm hoping to get more eyes on it. Thanks in advance! QuietHere (talk | contributions) 00:50, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

AfD discussion - List of feature film series with three entries

Hello - just opened up Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of feature film series with three entries. Any input from project members would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! jellyfish ✉ 04:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

"Paddington (franchise)"

The usage of Paddington (franchise) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) is under discussion. See talk:Paddington (film series) for the discussion, on where the 2014 film series and derivative properties is the franchise. -- 64.229.90.32 (talk) 05:13, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

FAR for Jason Voorhees

I have nominated Jason Voorhees for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 12:01, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:The Hunger Games (film series)#Requested move 7 June 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:The Hunger Games (film series)#Requested move 7 June 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. 98𝚃𝙸𝙶𝙴𝚁𝙸𝚄𝚂 • [𝚃𝙰𝙻𝙺] 14:18, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Title name of the upcoming seventh Jurassic film

The title name for the upcoming seventh Jurassic film called Jurassic City is not an official one and an user name AJFU was the one who thought of this based on sources that are questionable, as you can see in this talk page section of it. I think there should be a discussion about this. BattleshipMan (talk) 03:24, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

• Speedy Close and move to Untitled Jurassic World film per WP:COMMONNAME and Talk:Jurassic City (2025 film). GSK (talk • edits) 15:38, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

  "Speedy" closes are requested/done based on an obvious consensus. Based on the talk page discussion, there isn't a consensus for "Untitled Jurassic World film" but seems to be one for "Jurassic World 4". I think the latter is a verifiable option used by a reliable source. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 15:51, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Category for Films that had defamation lawsuits

Is there a category for films which led to defamation lawsuits by portrayed characters (e.g. The Wolf of Wall Street (2013 film) and The Lost King). If not, should there be (and what would it be called)? thanks. Aszx5000 (talk) 20:48, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

The closest similar category I could find (though there might be better analogs) is Category:Films involved in plagiarism controversies. Category:Films involved in defamation lawsuits might be viable, but I wouldn't bother unless you can find at least five such films, as we shouldn't really create small categories. I also wouldn't take my own word as gospel here, but recommend waiting to hear from other editors who may be more well-versed in this subject area. Cheers! DonIago (talk) 13:09, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Doniago. I'll take your advice. I think there are quite a few films (& TV shows) that led to defmation lawsuits (even recently Baby Reindeer), so it might be a worthwhile category to have (e.g. category:Films and TV shows that spawned defamation lawsuits), or something equivalent? Aszx5000 (talk) 17:31, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

A wider-reaching category would certainly be more viable. If you go that route, I think I might recommend Category:Works involved in defamation lawsuits; I don't really like "spawned" personally, and I think it's a little misleading; it's not inherently the work's fault that someone decided to create a lawsuit over it. But I'd definitely want input from other editors before going further down this road. DonIago (talk) 18:05, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree about "spawned". "Involved" is more neutral and accurate. I think "Works involved" is a good place to start (which would include printed works), then creating subcategories by medium as it grows larger. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 18:29, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Great - I have created Category:Works involved in defamation lawsuits and placed it under Category:Works subject to a lawsuit. On a quick search, found a reasonable number of cases, so should be a useful sub cat imho. thanks all. Aszx5000 (talk) 10:32, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Speaking as an editor who's had to create far too many entries at CfD that might have been averted if editors had been a bit less bold, thank you for coming here to ask for opinions before creating one or more categories that might have then needed to be CfD'ed! DonIago (talk) 13:17, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

My pleasure - it was a good discussion to have :) Aszx5000 (talk) 13:44, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Jumanji

I've started up a discussion on how we should format the cast section for the Jumanji article at Talk:Jumanji#Cast section. Any input from project members would be very much appreciated. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 04:55, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Crediting in first sentences

If we mention in a film article's first sentences that a film was written by or produced by someone, is it misleading to not indicate that there were other writers and producers? (For example, "Foo is a film directed, written, and produced by Famous Director [not mentioning other writers and producers].")

To try to fix this, is it proper to use "co-written"? What about "co-produced", which to me feels wrong especially since films do have literal co-producers separate from producers? Another approach could to be to just mention all writers and all producers, but I feel like that can be overly-specific to do for most films in the first few sentences. Curious what others think. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 13:13, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Terminator 2 opens with "Terminator 2: Judgment Day[a] is a 1991 American science fiction action film directed by James Cameron, who co-wrote the script with William Wisher.". I don't think producers should be mentioned at all in the opening sentence, going back to my previous arguments against the MCU articles going out of their way to textually felate Disney and Marvel studios as soon as possible. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 13:15, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Even if the director was one of the producers? What do you do about producers in lead sections in general? Like mention in the typical production-focused paragraph that the director produced the film with so-and-so? Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 13:19, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

I just don't think producers/producer roles warrant mentioning, in terms of creativity I think director/writer are traditionally how someone would identify a film, i.e. a Richard Donner film, Spielberg film, etc. Doesn't work for everyone obviously but it doesn't help me to know Neal H Moritz produced a film since that's a fairly obscure name to the uninformed and is not an indication of quality, tone, type, etc. The only caveat would be something where the producer role was instrumental and unavoidable, such as some 80s films to which Spielberg lent his weight and it's the main reason it got made. Beyond that I consider it alongside distributors in a sense that they provided funding, maybe did more than that, but it's not something I believe needs mentioning in the opening sentence or lede in general, again without good cause. A big name like the aforementioned Spielberg can be worth mentioning. I do dislike the use of "directed and written by" if it's not a sole writing credit as it is misleading. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 13:35, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't think we should be implying they are the sole writer/producer, but as DWB demonstrates in his reply there are so many ways around this through appropriate phrasing. Betty Logan (talk) 13:20, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

To be clear, I mean it in an unintentional sense. Like it may be when some editors write "written and produced" by a director, they figure readers will know that they're not necessarily the sole writer and producer. (Maybe they'll think the full credits in the infobox will cover that?) I was asking if that's a plausible assumption or if we should word it in a way to always indicate multiple roles in some way. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 13:24, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

If there are multiple writers on a project, we should not be using wording to indicate that a director (who may have also taken on that role) is the sole writer. "Co-written/co-wrote" is fine to use in my eyes. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:16, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

I think it depends on how important the director was for the production. For most films they shouldn't probably be credited in the first sentence, but if they seemed important for the film production, a "produced by", credit in the first sentence is okay to me. If "co-produced" could be thought would be more accurate, they probably weren't so involved in the first place and shouldn't be credited in the first sentence. So a producer credit in the first sentence could be contingent on prominence in the film's production and require a reliable source that shows that. Ekom2 (talk) 21:20, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Streaming series

Hello! If I'm discussing a series that was created for Disney+ or another streaming platform, should I refer to it as a "television series" or a "streaming series"? Wafflewombat (talk) 17:47, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

I would check WT:TV archives for discussions about this. For example, I found this: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television/Archive 36 § "streaming" in the lead sentence for tv shows. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 17:50, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

I remember that discussion well. I suppose one takeaway is to use something like " "streaming on Netflix" or "streaming on Disney+" or "released on Disney+" or something like that. Sometimes series stream and are shown on broadcast TV, as well, so words need to be chosen correctly and carefully. As one of those in that discussion noted, "It's worth mentioning the network/streaming service in the lead, yes, but "streaming television series" is no longer really a "genre" of TV series, nor a common phrase used in reliable sources (or by laypeople)." Historyday01 (talk) 18:03, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

It should just be "television series". WT:TV is the proper location for this discussion/help. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:48, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:List of films considered the best#Requested move 13 June 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:List of films considered the best#Requested move 13 June 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 19:29, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Fictional characters

Another question (er, questions) for you all! This is much more the domain of the Fictional Characters Wikiproject, but I have reached out to them multiple times and haven't received any responses—it's a ghost town over there. Anyways, I'm wondering if you know what the appropriate terms are for referring to leading characters. Protagonist? Lead character? Main character? Is antagonist acceptable to use? Is it okay to rank characters as primary/seconday protoganists or antagonists? Should the use of any of these terms be cited, such as finding secondary sources that describe character X as the primary antagonist? Wafflewombat (talk) 04:11, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

I think WP:PROTAGONIST covers this nicely, but basically none of those terms should be used without sources that support them. DonIago (talk) 04:52, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! Wafflewombat (talk) 05:19, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

The Life of Chuck

An editor has requested that The Life of Chuck (film) be moved to The Life of Chuck, which may be of interest to this WikiProject. You are invited to participate in the move discussion. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 13:48, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Parasite Budget

For the infobox of a film, does the budget take into account marketing costs on top of production? The article for Parasite says the film had a budget of ₩17.0 billion translating to about $15.5 million, but according to the sources it's actually ₩13.5 billion=$11.4 million, and the ₩17.0 billion is only when taking into account marketing costs. Sgubaldo (talk) 20:05, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

No, the "budget" is essentially the production budget. The marketing cost can be covered in the article body. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 20:07, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

That's what I thought, thanks. I will change the article. Sgubaldo (talk) 20:13, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

MTV News has gone offline

This is a notice that all MTV News articles have been pulled offline, with it also noted that some of them are not even accessible in the Wayback Machine. This is why it is generally good practice to add url archives to all content added to prevent WP:LINKROT and being unable to access sourced content if sites go down like this. The site generally covered some "pop culture" films in the mid 2000s to the 2010s, so if you are aware of any articles you actively work on that use these sources, best to check if an archive is up or you can get one still. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:50, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Sourcing a factoid about Sam Raimi and Batman films

A repeated factoid mentions a connection between director Sam Raimi and Batman: alternatively offering that "Raimi sought out the rights to Batman; unable to secure them, he created Darkman" or "Raimi lobbied to direct Batman Forever, but was rejected in favor of Joel Schumacher". The Wikipedia articles for Batman Forever and Darkman refer to this, with Batman even mentioned in the lede of Darkman. However, I suspect this isn't true - or, at least, is not verifiable by reliable sources.

First off, primary and secondary sources that discuss Raimi's directorial career and/or the production of Darkman only mention Raimi seeking The Shadow before Darkman:

• Interviewed by frequent collaborator Bruce Campbell about Darkman, Raimi states "I really wanted to make The Shadow. But Universal Studios wouldn’t give me the rights to that."[1]
• Darkman producer Rob Tapert, in an oral history of the movie for The Hollywood Reporter, recalls [Raimi] "tried very hard to make a movie about The Shadow, but that proved impossible..."[2]

Second, although Batman has occasionally been mentioned in relation to Raimi in such sources, it has never been in the context of Raimi having pursued a Batman movie in the 80s or 90s:

• The Evil Dead Companion quotes Raimi stating that Darkman "has a lot of elements of pictures that and stories that have gone before," as he offhandly lists Batman alongside The Phantom of The Opera and The Elephant Man,[3] without mentioning any attempts to make his own Batman film.
• The aforementioned THR oral history remarks that "the enormous success Warner Bros. had with Tim Burton’s Batman" was a factor in Universal greenlighting Darkman, but draws no further connection between Batman and Raimi.
• In a 2022 interview with Empire, Raimi remarks that "I’ve always loved Batman. If I ever saw the Batsignal up in the air, I’d come running,"[4] but again does not indicate any history of pursuing such a movie.

Notably, several Wikipedia articles have had some mention of Raimi attempting to direct a Batman movie since at least 2006; this claim is frequently unsourced (sometimes remaining for years without one) or only supported by lower-quality sources. I am concerned that citogenesis is taking place, with later writers seeing Batman mentioned in Wikipedia article(s) over the years and assuming it to be fact:

• Sam Raimi article: On May 30, 2006, "Raimi lobbied to direct Batman Forever [...] but was rejected" is added, unsourced. This claim remains without a source for over a decade; a citation is added in November 2016: a 2005 post on the IGN forums discussing a 2004 IMDb trivia post.[5] This point was removed in 2019 due to its reliance on an invalid source. The "Sam Raimi" article currently makes no mention of Batman.

• Batman Forever article: Also on May 30, 2006, minutes after adding it to the "Sam Raimi" article, the same editor adds "Sam Raimi lobbied to direct the third film, but was rejected[...]" to this article. This claim is again added without a source; a source is added a month later: the IMDb trivia page. In September 2006, this point is removed along with the entire trivia section. Raimi is not mentioned in the article for years.
  • In June 2020, "Sam Raimi [was] considered" is added in, unsourced. In August 2023, the fact is removed during a rewrite of the "Development" section of the article.
  • In February 2024, "Sam Raimi [was] considered" is added again, sourced by two Screen Rant articles. The fact is still currently in the article.

• Darkman article: On July 1, 2006, "[Raimi] had pursued and failed to secure the rights to both The Shadow and Batman," is added, unsourced.
  • The next sentence (the unrelated fact that "The initial idea Raimi had for Darkman was of a man who could change his face") was accurately sourced to The Evil Dead Companion; later revisions made this a footnote which may have given readers the impression that the Companion supported Raimi pursuing the rights to Batman, which it does not.
  • In May 2022, while first researching this fact, I removed the Batman claim and rewrote the paragraph to only mention what could be reliably sourced, viz. Raimi had only mentioned seeking the rights to The Shadow.
  • In October 2023, the fact is restored, with a Den of Geek citation; it is still in the article at present.

In conclusion:

• I cannot find mention of a connection between Raimi and a potential Batman movie in a source that predates the 2006 Wikipedia edits, apart from the aforementioned unreliable IMDb trivia page. This fact has only started to consistently appear in articles over the last five years or so, long after the production of Darkman or Forever.
• Darkman was released in 1990, before filming had begun on Batman Returns and long before Burton's departure from the series. Raimi would therefore had to have sought Batman before and after Darkman, at least two distinct attempts over a 5+ year period, yet there is a lack of documentation for either.
• When mentioned in an article, the idea is only mentioned in passing e.g. "Raimi had wanted to make a movie about Batman or The Shadow..." but only ever providing additional detail or context about The Shadow,[6] if that.
  • Several articles mention Raimi being turned down for being a "cult" director ([7], [8]), but provide no source (e.g., interview, behind-the-scenes featurettes, contemporaneous reporting) for such a claim; this phrasing mirrors the old IMDb post. [9]
  • Articles featuring this claim are usually from marginally-reliable, perennially-questioned sites like CBR (post-2016) and Screen Rant, in listicles or reddit-comment-recaps like "Fun DC Theory Solves Burton & Schumacher's Batman Universe Confusion" or "10 Unrealized Sam Raimi Projects Redditors Want To See The Most" that are lower-quality and likely just pulled up a relevant Wikipedia article to pad the word count.

I'm unsure about how to edit in response to all this though. Addressing this feels like whac-a-mole: since it can pop up on Sam Raimi, Sam Raimi's unrealized projects, Batman Forever, and Darkman I'm not sure which talk page(s) to bring this up on - which is why I'm posting here. If I flag or remove one source as being insufficient quality, inevitably another editor will just google "raimi batman" and paste in another Screen Rant/CBR article that just mentions it in passing. It's nearly impossible to prove a negative, without an interview of Raimi stating point-blank "no, I was never in the running to direct Batman Forever" I can't definitely say that he wasn't, so... is the solution just tagging Bcn/rs/acn? Or just accept that this fact is verifiable, if not true? Mashed Potate Jones (talk) 22:20, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I would say that this falls under WP:EXCEPTIONAL: these are surprising or apparently important claims not covered by multiple mainstream sources, which one would expect them to be if they are indeed true. Consequently, as any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources, the claims may—and should—be removed absent such sources. The best thing would probably be to contact Raimi and get an explicit statement on it published in a reliable source (compare Emily St. John Mandel's divorce). TompaDompa (talk) 23:43, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the sourcing seems very weak and vague. If something like this had occurred I would have expected it be covered by something like Variety or The Hollywood Reporter. If Raimi had made multiple attempts to adapt Batman you would expect a similar level of coverage to that of his attempts to adapt The Shadow, especially since Batman is much more high profile. I think you have to be very careful about vague claims in weak sources, especially if they only materialise after they have been added to Wikipedia. Betty Logan (talk) 00:27, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Indian director calling film bilingual when evidence is against it.

See Talk:Kalki_2898_AD#Language. Per Template:Infobox film, Insert the language primarily used in the film. Databases often give every language spoken within the film, even if they only reflect a few lines in the overall script. The BBFC website is a good resource for the main language used in the film. Only in rare cases of clearly bilingual or multilingual films, enter separate entries with .

The article in question is Kalki 2898 AD. The director Nag Ashwin for his latest film Kalki 2898 AD and Mahanati called both of his films bilingual. In the latter film, the article says one of the versions was later dropped in favour of a dub.

In his latest film in an interview in July 2023 when most of the film's shooting was complete, he said Some scenes would definitely be more impactful if we are shooting it in Hindi. So we are shooting it in two languages. But for the most part it's a Telugu film.

References

So this is how the process usually goes, a director calls his film bilingual Wikipedia reflects the same. The film releases. The lip sync and CBFC certificate say otherwise. Then the bilingual information has to be removed.

Luckily, all of India's bilingual films usually come from Prabhas's films and as per his latest films films, none of them are bilingual. but if Nag Ashwin were to direct another film, we have to keep reconvening.

His 2nd film's scam has an entire article: Some filmmakers can't stop talking about how difficult it is to make bilinguals. Actors talk about bilinguals almost in a 'scared hush, considering they have to endure the monotony and fatigue of having to shoot the same scenes, while speaking different languages. But having watched some of our recent films that are promoted as bilinguals, it's tempting to wonder what the big deal is, really. [10]

DareshMohan (talk) 02:44, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

To LGBT or not to LGBT, that is the question...

In the process of trying to update List of LGBT-related films of 2024 with the films that screened in the past couple of weeks at the Frameline Film Festival, I came across Good One, where the article has already existed for several weeks but had not been categorized or listed as an LGBT-related film, and I also could not find any sources whatsoever to clarify the matter — so I asked on the talk page, and another editor located a source that passingly states that the protagonist identifies as queer, but otherwise continues to reflect the same lack of evidence that her queerness is particularly central to the main plot.

So I'm of two minds: to me, personally, the fact that a lead character in the film is queer should be enough to warrant categorizing it as an LGBT-related film (queerfolk don't only want to see films where queerness is the drama per se, and do want to also see films in which queer people are just present in the world too), but I can easily see somebody reverting me on the grounds that it isn't "LGBT-related" enough to be defined by that if I tried to add the category myself. It would be much more clearcut that it wasn't particularly significant if a minor character's LGBTQ identity was passingly mentioned without being central to the storyline, but if it's the lead character it's obviously a harder call.

So I wanted to ask for some other opinions as well: if the central character's queerness is mentioned, but the film isn't particularly about her queerness per se, then should it be categorized as LGBT-related or not? Bearcat (talk) 14:07, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

As a general rule of thumb, if secondary sources find it worth mentioning, then it's likely related. The more sources, the more likely. I assume that the source you mentioned was IndieWire with "Chris' queer 17-year-old daughter Sam (extraordinary newcomer Lily Collias)" quoted. I also found these mentions:

• TheFilmStage: "For Sam, still coming to terms as a queer teenager, her identity is nonchalantly dismissed by Matt, thinking he’s caring by asking the question but then immediately interrupting her."
• The Hollywood Reporter: "Collias’ body language and the telltale flickers across her expressive face suggest that Sam isn’t entirely comfortable with her prescriptive gender role as the designated nurturer and caregiver — the good one, as the title indicates. While it remains between the lines of the screenplay, there’s significance in Sam’s identity as a young queer woman ready to focus on her own relationship and future, not thrilled to be bolstering the fragile egos of two middle-aged men." (this may be the most "related" indicator)
• Variety: "...he's a sincerely loving and interested parent, and has evidently accepted her out-and-proud queerness without difficulty."

It would probably help to reference some of this in the article body, especially The Hollywood Reporter. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 14:27, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for that Hollywood Reporter source. That's a really nice find, that contextualizes its potential relevance much better than anything else I'd found. Bearcat (talk) 14:41, 27 June 2024 (UTC)