Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Archive 84

Archive 80

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Archive 82

Archive 83

Archive 84

New Editor - Questions about Plot Summaries

I'm new to editing Wikipedia and even newer to editing Film pages themselves, but stumbled upon the page for Dutchman (film) and, having seen the film, realized the notes on plot were a bit lacking. I'd like to assist with expanding this page, but wanted to ask for some clarification/guidelines for a new editor when it comes to editing a page like this. Are citations needed for a plot summary? Is there any introductory guidelines to writing something like that? Any information would be much appreciated. WW0CJ (talk) 00:43, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

@WW0CJ You can refer to MOS:FILMPLOT for the guideline regarding plots in film articles. Citations are usually not needed for plots as the film would be the primary source itself. (P.S. Welcome to Wikipedia! Hope you will enjoy editing here.) Jolly1253 (talk) 01:01, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion on The Lion King II

Hello. There's an ongoing discussion regarding the recent changes to the plot and lead sections of The Lion King II: Simba's Pride, which can be found at Talk:The Lion King II: Simba's Pride#Changes to the plot and lead. Input from project members would be very much appreciated. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 01:20, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Are alternative title redirects (with parenthetical qualifiers indicating years) accepted as full-fledged titles to the extent of affecting the header forms of actual film articles?

A discussion regarding this question is currently active at Talk:Murder, Inc. (1960 film)#Requested move 22 March 2024. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 22:42, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Billing

When creating a list of cast members for a film (both in the main article and in the infobox), should the credits of the film be the basis for how the list is ordered, or a "billing block" found on a poster or elsewhere? For this page, a billing block from the poster was used, but the credits of the film lay things out differently, re-ordering the cast members and calling some of the stars from the poster "supporting cast." Wafflewombat (talk) 04:34, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Either can be used, but the default is typically to follow the billing block unless special local consensus has determined otherwise. If an article has done it a certain way for a very long time, it shouldn't be arbitrarily changed without a reason and without discussion, per MOS:VAR. InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:17, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, that's helpful. Wafflewombat (talk) 05:39, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

You also use what's available. There isn't always a billing block on the film's poster, so check the beginning and end credits of a film. If there are discrepancies, a local consensus should determine how to go about it. Before a film's theatrical release, reviews and articles from reputable publications that list a film's stars and main cast can be used as a guide. Lapadite (talk) 06:25, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Are you familiar with MOS:FILMCAST? The general idea is to try to follow a rule of thumb (as opposed to deciding for yourself what the order should be). Generally speaking, the billing block can suffice, but if there are different orders available, try to see which order is more prevalent, whether in databases or in books that write about the film (since they sometimes do a cast list as part of that coverage). Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 12:05, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

• The billing for Jedi is as follows:

Poster
Mark Hamill
Harrison Ford
Carrie Fisher
Billy Dee Williams
Anthony Daniels
Co-starring David Prowse
Kenny Baker
Peter Mayhew
Frank Oz

Film (prominent credits before the scrolling ones)
Mark Hamill
Harrison Ford
Carrie Fisher
Billy Dee Williams
Anthony Daniels
Co-starring Peter Mayhew
Sebastian Shaw
Ian McDiarmid
Frank Oz
James Earl Jones
David Prowse
Alec Guinness

• Strangely Kenny Baker doesn't get mentioned at all in the prominent film credits. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 21:55, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Attributed to multiple sources?

I'm seeing a pattern at Godzilla Minus One in regards to multiple sources being cited, see here. As you can see, some footnotes claiming "attributed to multiple sources" cite 5 sources, one even cites 8 sources -- but isn't this a violation of WP:CITEKILL? Or is there an acceptable variation of this pattern that I'm missing? Armegon (talk) 19:17, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

It is acceptable to combine multiple references per WP:CITEMERGE, usually how I do it is put all of the cite templates inside a single set of ref tags, which would be cleaner than the solution used here. For example, many of the inline citations at Peacemaker (TV series)#Viewership combine multiple sources that cover viewership data for different weeks. - adamstom97 (talk) 19:48, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Mixing explanatory footnotes and these kinds of bundled references under the same heading of "Notes", as is done at Godzilla Minus One#Notes, should however be avoided. TompaDompa (talk) 20:05, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, that shouldn't happen. I would recommend doing something similar to John Wick (film)#Footnotes. I should also note that an efn with a list of <ref>'s (while common) is not the only way to do this; some articles just use a regular <ref> tag followed by a bulleted list. InfiniteNexus (talk) 20:47, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I think this has been brought up here before. The purpose of bundling citations is to avoid CITEKILL, so no, it does not violate CITEKILL. Bundling is done pretty widely on Wikipedia, not just on film articles (especially for EXCEPTIONAL claims where bundling citations is essentially required). InfiniteNexus (talk) 20:43, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Got it. Thank you all for responding. Armegon (talk) 23:10, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Sponsored film and industrial video

In trying to wikilink to Industrial film and Industrial films, I noticed that they went to two different articles. Are these the same topic?4meter4 (talk) 17:56, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Seeing as how Industrial films redirects to Sponsored film which links to industrial video as a type of sponsored film, then I would say yes and fix the plural redirect. Gonnym (talk) 18:10, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

HUGE FIND that could help Create and Expand pages for the Eddie Awards

A couple of days ago, I obtained an incredible source: It's called the ACE Second Decade Anniversary Book. It has many biographies and deaths of various film editors that have never been posted on the internet before, as well as a summary of the Eddie Awards from 1961–1971. The some of the death dates are not 100% accurate, but most of them are.

Here's some changes that I've made using that book as a source:

• Conrad A. Nervig - I used multiple sources to highlight his time in the military before he began work as film editor.
• American Cinema Editors Award for Best Edited Feature Film - They gave out TWO awards in 1969!
• George Boemler - I completed his birth and death date using a combination of Ancestry.com (which I didn't cite) and the ACE book (which I did cite).
• George Tomasini - Added more context to his death date using a partially available film journal and the ACE book in hand.

Furthermore, I created the first FOUR Eddie Awards pages, using additional sources from Newspapers.com:

• American Cinema Editors Awards 1962
• American Cinema Editors Awards 1963
• American Cinema Editors Awards 1964
• American Cinema Editors Awards 1965

The 1965 one is an INCREDIBLE article, considering that it was the FIRST ever award by the group that introduced the "Eddie" awards. It also had multiple categories and a surprising amount of coverage from the Newspapers.com sources, including ONE source that is more complete than the IMDb listing for the award. Thus, I want some people to help me create all of the articles from 1962–2006, as well as clean-up and expand 2007–2021. Yoshiman6464 ^♫🥚 22:37, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Plot summary discussion in Aladdin

There is a discussion at Talk:Aladdin (1992 Disney film)#Hidden comment in plot summary that may be of interest to this project. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 02:35, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

A mother category for Category:African films and Category:African cinema

Having gone through these two categories,African films and African cinema, I feel the contents should both be put under one mother category...perhaps Category:African film and television? This would have all the African film and television content under one mother category for easy sorting and location of related articles. We're trying to integrate the https://bambots.brucemyers.com/cwb/bycat/ to the WikiProject AfroCreatives, but it can only link to a single category. Linking it to either African films or African cinema would leave out a lot of articles that could worked on, hence my recommendation to have the put under a mother category. Ceslause (talk) 22:10, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Oversectioning

There is a problem with a lot of articles of recent films having the exact same defined order of section and subsection headings, which is not community-endorsed. That particular defined order is due to certain editors persistently going around and applying such changes. This has led other editors to incorrectly assume that this is the standard and that we need to follow that very specific structure every time.

The order should depend on the content available for that topic, and I have noticed a lot of skinny "Release" sections that are separate from any box office content, and MOS:OVERSECTION says, "Very short sections and subsections clutter an article with headings and inhibit the flow of the prose." For most films, this means that just the film's release date is covered in one section, and the box office figures are covered in another section. Where the coverage is minimal, it is completely possible and reasonable to have that coverage together in a fuller section. Claiming that the separation is "always" done elsewhere is not a reason in itself. I encourage editors to structure articles based on the topic's content and not on a fake standard. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 14:26, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Calling a movie a "classic" as a factual statement

Is it ok to call a movie a "classic" in an encyclopedia as a factual statement? I have a problem with this, because to me it sounds like praise.

I've discussed this with a number of people and some make the claim, that you only need to be able to quote enough people who are saying that a movie is a classic, to call it a classic.

But wouldn't that be like saying a movie is "good", and providing "sources" for that claim? Since there is hardly anything that is liked by literally everyone, i think saying "this movie is a classic" should be avoided in favor of saying "this movie is (widely) considered a classic".

"It is considered a classic" is provable. "It is a classic" is not really provable.

In my view it is probably ok to use the world "classic" when referring to something that is not from the modern era. "Romeo and Juliet" for example.

Some people seem to be of the opinion, that the word "classic" just means that a movie is very influential. But then why not just say that instead? The movie "Chinatown" for example has 98% on Rotten Tomatoes which means there are critics who gave it a bad review. They would certainly agree that the movie has been influential, but i don't think they would call it a classic. They would agree that it is "widely considered a classic" though, because that is a fact.

Why? Because the word "classic" encompasses two things: First, the general status of a movie and second the perceived quality of a movie (by the one using the word). That's the way i see it. Some people don't seem to see it that way at all but i'm not sure why.

Would be happy to hear a few opinions on this. Thanks! Dornwald (talk) 14:05, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

For many films the single word seems an apt descriptor per WP:BLUESKY. Films such as It's a Wonderful Life, Citizen Kane, and Wizard of Oz come to mind as universally accepted classic films. The age of the film plays a role in the terminology, as newer films have not yet earned such a descriptor, but the older films which have merit Blue Sky wording. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:19, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I have to disagree with you. It has to be verifiable that a film is a classic. Not to mention that the films you mentioned are US-centric. Would you balk at seeing The Apu Trilogy being called a classic? The proper guideline to apply is WP:PEACOCK in which we would contextualize the application of such a label. The word "classic" is a qualifier like "famous" or "good" and needs to be verified. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 14:24, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

You can't verify "good", that's part of my point. Dornwald (talk) 16:17, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, you can, in the example seen at WP:PEACOCK. It has to be given context. Like, "Critics called it a good film," if a reliable source said that. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 17:21, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

right. "critics call it a classic" is also fine by me. "it is a classic" is not. Dornwald (talk) 18:27, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

To expand, a more basic description would be to call so-and-so film an early example of whatever genre. "Early" does not indicate quality. Maybe it was one of the first, but that does not mean it has notoriety. To say that something is a classic is that it is "serving as a standard of excellence : of recognized value" (according to Merriam-Webster). Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 14:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I would generally expect to see "It is considered a classic" with supporting sources, rather than Wikipedia labelling it an objective "classic". - adamstom97 (talk) 14:36, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Supporting sources justify using the term without adding the "it is considered a" descriptor. Classic, in this use, has a definitive meaning that would apply with brevity. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:39, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

But it is still just the opinion of of those sources, it isn't a genre or similar label that is objective. - adamstom97 (talk) 14:42, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I understand the viewpoint, and this is a good discussion of the use of the term on Wikipedia. I would think that the bare descriptor is also widely used for novels as well as films, and so further Wikiprojects should be alerted if a change is to be made, and maybe an RfC instead of a brief discussion here would clarify. As with all things on Wikipedia, some exceptions are both allowed and encouraged (which could apply to some works and not others). Randy Kryn (talk) 15:11, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Randy Kryn Where could an RfC discussion take place? Dornwald (talk) 20:49, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Probably not needed, as it looks like I may be on a one-editor raft. It just seems an obvious word for some films, per WP:BLUESKY, but if it can't be applied to Wizard of Oz without being cited or couched in "some critics say"... Randy Kryn (talk) 03:14, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Its not an appropriate word to use in wikivoice anymore than describing a film as garbage tier, dope, legendary, or totally sick would be. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

No, you can't call a film a "classic". You can quote a reviewer who thinks it's a classic in the reception section with attribution, per WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV. This is a core policy and can't be overridden by local consensus. If people try to do so, let me know, and I'll block them. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:29, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

I would expect to see phrases like "considered a classic". Similar to Tom Brady, which states "widely regarded as the greatest quarterback of all time", as opposed to outright making the claim (which, I would disagree with personally, as I consider Joe Montana to be the greatest). That being said, I wouldn't preemptively announce an intention to block someone for using particular verbiage - which could easily be seen as a good faith edit - after voicing an opinion on the topic, potentially rendering the admin to be involved. However, that is neither here nor there regarding the discussion at hand. Useight (talk) 03:52, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

This needs to be made clear to people somehow. A lot of people think the word "classic" is different than say the word "good" and if you change it they don't understand that at all. There are examples all over wikipedia. I would say more than half of the people i talked to about this think "classic" is just an objective descriptor. Dornwald (talk) 05:57, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the word 'classic' is very different than the word good. NinjaRobotPirate may ban me for linking this, but see Classic book which shows that the subject and wording is often a "thing". Randy Kryn (talk) 06:10, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

"A classic is a book accepted as being exemplary or particularly noteworthy."

Nothing is ever 100% "accepted" by literally everyone and even if it were you can't prove that (you'd have to talk to every single person or critic on the planet).

"What makes a book "classic" is a concern that has occurred to various authors"

All of this just proves my point that you can't state it as an objective fact. Dornwald (talk) 12:59, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

The words "classic" and "good" are not synonyms. A person can (though doesn't have to), exit a movie theater and say, "That was a good movie" without also believing that same movie to be a classic movie. However, they are both subjective adjectives, making it preferable to word it carefully. That doesn't mean we can't use the word classic (or other subjective terms). For example, Robert Wadlow says, "His great size". The word great is subjective and it's not couched in carefully crafted words or cited by a source. We don't want to devolve into pedantry. If you want to change the wording on articles referring to various films as classic and/or add sources that refer to said movie as a classic, I don't suspect anyone is going to stop you. Useight (talk) 14:22, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Of course they stop me, that's why i started this discussion. "His great size" refers to an objective fact (him being taller than other people). Dornwald (talk) 14:39, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Being the objectively taller doesn't not inherently and objectively make it great. Perhaps I only consider twelve feet tall to be great size. As far as being previously stopped, I assume you're referring to this edit, which got undone because you made the change during the discussion about it on Talk:It's a Wonderful Life. It's best to leave the article untouched until the discussion runs its course. Useight (talk) 15:20, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Someone else told me to just change it in the discussion, instead of talking about it so... Dornwald (talk) 15:31, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I think we need to focus on the specific issue at hand because it is awfully vague to talk about the label of "classic" in isolation. It was about It's a Wonderful Life and the use of "classic" there. It seems like it was this edit. "Classic" is used elsewhere in the article body, and I don't know if that is being contested too. But in the "Remakes" sentence, I don't think we need to use "classic" there; it could just be "original" or not even have an adjective at all since "film" obviously refers to the topic. It seems like the other uses of "classic" elsewhere in the article body have sufficient enough context. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 15:22, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Please, this is not about It's a Wonderful Life, it's about the use of the word in general. Dornwald (talk) 15:33, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

It's not as simple as "the use of the word in general". We know we can use the word, but it completely depends on the context and the other words around it. Do you have a problem with the word "classic" being used elsewhere in that film article? It's used five other times. Do you have any issue with any of these five uses? Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 17:30, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Actually no, i don't. I find "it became a classic" semi-ok (because it must refer to the way the perception of the movie changed, given that the movie itself didn't change. the problem of verifiability remains though. but it doesn't sound like praise to me). Dornwald (talk) 20:01, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

The problem with treating "classic" as a BLUESKY situation is that while the sky is blue is as objective a thing as you can determine, what a "classic film" even means is subjective, as this very conversation illustrates. (Some will take it to mean it's good, some will mean it's stood the test of time; others will call some of the examples above influential films but not necessarily classic.) It's also worth pointing out who is calling it classic; film critics are a major component of critical reception, but they're not the be-all and end-all, and there's demographic pitfalls (I'm sure there are some who don't consider Gone with the Wind a "classic" because of its message and racial politics.) If a film really is universally considered a classic... there shouldn't be any issue finding a plethora of quality sources that will say so. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 17:05, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Nothing is ever "universally" considered anything. 8 billion people will never 100% agree on anything, and even if they did there's no way of proving it. Dornwald (talk) 17:12, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Please note the difference between denotation and connotation. The connotation of "universal" means "very widely", not "literally every". Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth. David Fuchs is saying that if there is, indeed, a wide span of people who consider a movie to be a classic, then there would exist some reliable sources stating as such. And, in the event that such sources exist, then we can easily proceed noting that the movie is, in fact, considered to be a classic and provide said source. Please note that the text "considered to be a classic" and other similar phrases do not imply that it is considered to be a classic by everyone and the reader should not infer as such. Useight (talk) 17:45, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

"considered to be a classic" is fine by me. Dornwald (talk) 18:02, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Aadujeevitham (film)#Requested move 29 March 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Aadujeevitham (film)#Requested move 29 March 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. The Herald (Benison) (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Talk:List of Korean films of 1919–1948#Requested move 11 March 2024

An editor has requested that List of Korean films of 1919–1948 be moved to List of films produced in Korea under Japanese rule, which may be of interest to this WikiProject. You are invited to participate in the move discussion. toobigtokale (talk) 20:03, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

This discussion still needs some input, please help out. toobigtokale (talk) 22:05, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Solaris (1972 film)

Solaris (1972 film) has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Spinixster (trout me!) 02:12, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Reliability of ScreenCrush

Can someone tell me if ScreenCrush is a reliable source? The first button at the top of the website says "Win Cash" which is a red flag for me. I removed a sentence citing a ScreenCrush article on a page I'm editing, but someone else reverted my edit because that particular article was written by Matt Singer, who is apparently a credible film critic. Wafflewombat (talk) 07:34, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I've always found them to be good enough for basic entertainment journalism like Screen Rant and that sort of site. I'm not sure how reliable they would be for a big scoop that the trades didn't pick up on. Matt Singer is a RT/MC listed critic so yes does appear to be credible. - adamstom97 (talk) 07:44, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Even not having any previous familiarity with the site, I am confident that a place that (in addition to the major "Win Cash" red flag you rightly point out) has "The Dumbest Questions People Ask Google About Movies" and "The Worst Movies of the 20th Century, According to Letterboxd" on the front page (at time of writing) is not exactly the most serious outlet—even if both of those are written by Matt Singer (whom I am also not familiar with, but taking what a quick Google search reveals at face value seems to indicate is indeed a credible critic). It is obviously not a high-quality source (i.e. not suitable for WP:Featured articles per the relevant criteria), but it might be comparable to Screen Rant as suggested above—in which case it would be usable for straightforward statements of fact (e.g. release dates) within its area of competency, but not for anything remotely controversial, WP:BLP material, or any kind of analysis, and not a source to rely on for establishing WP:Notability or assessing WP:Due weight. TompaDompa (talk) 10:25, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I presume this is about my reversion at Changes in Star Wars re-releases. My reversion is based on the fact that it is an editorial piece for a reception section written by a credible and established film writer and critic. My assessment is based on Singer as an individual, and on the context of how the piece if being used, because the general situation to me seems to be a situational one. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 16:54, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for elaborating. I understand where you're coming from. What do you think of Tompa's response, above? Do you think Singer's article on Jabba qualifies as analysis? Wafflewombat (talk) 19:57, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Superman (1978 film) § Disputed – Discuss

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Superman (1978 film) § Disputed – Discuss. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 23:32, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

User:181.2.127.197

Hello, just calling attention to user:181.2.127.197's edits. User is currently editing many film articles. Removing sources and tweaking language. I am doing some anti-vandalism work, and it is a little difficult to discern if the edits are constructive to movie-based articles. Thought I could use an extra set of eyes on the user's contributions. Thanks in advance! Classicwiki (talk) If you reply here, please ping me. 02:37, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Classicwiki, appears to be a mixture of helpful and unhelpful, with the bad outweighing the good. Not sure if they are trying to do just enough to stay under the radar, but edits like these are real head scratchers. Looks like a few editors watching some of those articles have already intervened, but the number of articles hit in a short period of time is concerning. --GoneIn60 (talk) 05:49, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

@GoneIn60, Yes, it is/was hard for me to tell if there was some stealth vandalism going on with the seemingly good edits. Let me know if you think the user's edits should be reverted or sent to AIV. Classicwiki (talk) If you reply here, please ping me. 05:54, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Classicwiki, from my perspective, I don't think I'm comfortable calling it stealth vandalism at this point. In this edit and others like it, they may be trying to replicate something they saw in another article (though generally inappropriate for the lead section), so we can probably chalk this up as an educational issue for now. --GoneIn60 (talk) 06:12, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Film lists

I much prefer the A-Z list in List of American films of 1967 compared to what has been done to List of American films of 1970 onwards with the massive bloated cast lists which makes it difficult to find films. I'm going to restore them to the simple A-Z format rather than release date.♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:22, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Discussion notice: List of cult films

At List of cult films, there is a discussion which may be of interest to this WikiProject. Editors are coming up with ideas about refining the selection criteria. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments to Talk:List of cult films § List criteria. Thank you.—Alalch E. 23:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC)