User talk:Doncram/Archive 11

(Note many interspersed discussions have been archived instead in Archive 10, which focusses on NRHP HD-related issues. doncram (talk) 15:59, 5 September 2009 (UTC))

Photos

Thanks for adding that link. But when I go to it, there's only 2 images, not 13. Where are the rest? wadester16 14:16, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Columbia-specific HRHD pic

Just letting you know that I finally added a similar Hudson-Catskill view pic to the Columbia County NRHP list, one that was actually taken in the county (from the front of Clermont Manor). Daniel Case (talk) 17:52, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Your plagiarism comment

"And, also, there is copying in happening from other GFDL sources that is going to cause prodigious amounts of future work to clean up, which could be avoided if proper attribution is not used." I think you mean to say, could be avoided if proper attribution is used. Also, your link to an archive doesn't seem to be there. Lvklock (talk) 00:01, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, I can't firgure out how to read it that it makes sense the way it is, but it's your words, so I bow to your assertion that it does. As for as the WHS stuff, I'm overwhelmed pretty much to the point of immobility here with the table-izing non-drive and stuff I need to do on the Syr article. I don't see myself getting back to that anytime soon. To be honest, I'm pretty discouraged. Lvklock (talk) 00:32, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Syracuse list

BTW, I finally added pics for the most recent listing, the Temple Society of Concord. Lvklock (talk) 06:02, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Autopatrol

I've added autopatrol to your user rights, so any new articles you create will be automatically marked as patrolled on New Pages, logically enough. Acroterion _(talk) 18:39, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Ah, thanks! I have indeed been wanting to get free of new page patrollers' intended-to-be-helpful interventions, which can cost a lot of time to deal with, depending on the patroller involved. I didn't know what might accomplish this. Thanks! doncram (talk) 18:46, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

It's a new feature, made active today. Hopefully, this will help, but I won't warrant that it will avoid 100% of the fuss. Acroterion _(talk) 19:07, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Mills task force

It's decision time, see WT:HS. Mjroots (talk) 07:41, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

NRIS having issues

I'm trying to look up data relevant to the Rock Art in the Southern Black Hills TR (from the 1980s) in South Dakota, as I'm hoping to create a few rather broad articles to include most restricted-address archaeological listings in the state, somewhat similar to what you did with Archeological Sites at Kawela. However, I'm having trouble with nr.nps.gov — although I can get to that page fine, and http://www.nr.nps.gov/nrname1.htm displays fine for me, I get a "Internet Explorer cannot display the webpage" page when I click any of the "Search by _____" buttons. Is this happening for you? Nyttend (talk) 01:51, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I mentioned this at wt:NRHP recently, that MPS documents are effectively not available, because you cannot search for them. If u knew the refnum of the TR / MPS document, you could compose the URL and access it directly, but there is no way to learn that. Elkman checked and cannot find those within the NRIS download already. You can only request the document from the National Register. They are all in electronic form, so it should be no problem for them to send it to you. doncram (talk) 02:05, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, that's not what I meant. I mean: if I go to http://www.nr.nps.gov/nrname1.htm and click on "State and Resource Name" for an individual property, I still get the "can't display" page. I instant-messaged this link to someone else on a different computer, and he got an identical result. Nyttend (talk) 02:08, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh, okay. Going there now, it does not work for me either. You could try in Microsoft Internet Explorer rather than Firefox (which I am using), but it is probably just on the blink for a while. That basic search has usually worked. Probably try again in a day or so. The MPS / TR search screen, on the other hand, has been completely unusable, consistently. doncram (talk) 02:13, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't even have Firefox, although my instant-messenger friend used it; I use IE. Any idea what the URL would be (minus its reference number) for an MPS? Nyttend (talk) 02:17, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

The URL for MPS docs all appear to be composed the same, check any one already linked from an article. For example, the Ward Wellington Ward architect article has an MPS doc linked. But, you can't learn what is the refnum. Or are you going to try to guess? Lemme know how that works, have never tried that approach. doncram (talk) 02:19, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure how they're grouped, but there's some sort of organisation to it. http://www.nr.nps.gov/multiples/64500441.pdf is Ward Wellington Ward, http://www.nr.nps.gov/multiples/64500442.pdf is Army National Guard Armories in New York State, and http://www.nr.nps.gov/multiples/64500443.pdf is Historic Bridges of the AuSable River Valley. I'm not going to keep guessing much longer, because they're not grouped exactly alphabetically (Arizona sites appear to have low numbers, but Iowa has higher numbers than New York) or chronologically. I've also emailed the webmaster at http://www.sdhistory.org, because they host many MPS pdfs (for example, http://www.sdhistory.org/HP/German-RussianArchitectureSD.pdf, which I'm using at several county-list pages) that are only discoverable with Google, so I've wondered if they have the archaeological MPS documents also. Nyttend (talk) 02:29, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Just had a thought: see http://www.nr.nps.gov/multiples, a directory page. Can you imagine what the third-from-left column might be? I know that it's not standard reference numbers. Nyttend (talk) 02:39, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Nice find, to get the directory list. That column appears to be just file-sizes in byte. E.g. when u start to download the 620,000 size file, it shows as a 598 kb file being downloaded. One kb is, i suppose, 1024 bytes? When u start with a 1,200,000 size file, it shows as a 1.1 mb file being downloaded, etc. Maybe we should make a wikiproject page out of that list, and gradually identify which number ranges are in which state, by labelling scattered ones. But, the documents are supposedly going to be available soon within PDF Focus system. doncram (talk) 02:51, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like it would take a long time: there are 1,503 documents up there. However, there are only 1,502 uncertain documents — Polaron just left me a message with the correct link. This makes me very curious how he got it; hopefully it won't be a very difficult procedure. Nyttend (talk) 03:07, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

See WP:MPS. Would you be willing to help? Nyttend (talk) 21:24, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Robert E. Lee Hotel

This is on the St Louis County list. A Yahoo search also turns up an NRHP in San Diego. I can't get either one to come up on elkman dab page maker or infobox maker. I'm confused. Lvklock (talk) 18:23, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for taking care of the Robt E lee one. I'm having the same prob with Hi-Pointe-De Mun Historic District, in St. Louis CountE. I can't get it to come up in the Elkman infobox generator. What the heck am I doing wrong? Lvklock (talk) 05:08, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Hmm...I tried double hyphens on both, but not one single and one double. I'm okay with leaving them for now. So, just leave them listed at the bottom? If so, then all I have left to do in St. Louis is renumber M-Z. Lvklock (talk) 05:27, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

OK. Finished St. Louis, as done as it's gonna be. Past my bedtime. Lvklock (talk) 06:12, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

NRIS issues

In Lafayette County, Missouri, there's an item in the table labeled "William Robinson P." The old list says "William, P. Robinson House". Because I was unclear about what was first and what last names, I searched http://www.nr.nps.gov/iwisapi/explorer.dll?IWS_SCHEMA=NRIS1&IWS_LOGIN=1&IWS_REPORT=100000066 to check the name, which turns out to be "Robinson, William, P., House". Since the table output from the Elkman table generator is in disagreement with the NPS website, I'm unclear about whether to add this to NRIS issues before correcting it in the table. Lvklock (talk) 20:22, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Your checking the NPS's interface to NRIS is great. Elkman's system output has this glitch, leaving off "House" or "Building" or whatever for many NRHP place names having "Firstname Lastname, Jr." or with ", Sr." or II or III in their names. There are so many i do not report those situations. And I guess the glitch is there for some other names. The glitch could be caused by inconsistent data entry into the NRIS system using separate fields permitting separation of Lastname vs. Firstname vs Jr.-type extension fields, or just putting it all into one Name field. But if an NPS interface shows it as "House" i would just accept that and not report it as an NRIS info issue. Thanks! doncram (talk) 22:02, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Yet another section about MO

I tagged the Macon County Courthouse DAB I made today as needing cleanup because I wanted your input on redirects/article names for the variant Macon County Courthouse and Annex, which is in MO. I made the article with the NRHP name, but wonder if there should be a redirect or if I should have had the article under Macon County Courthouse (Missouri), to fit with the other two NRHP DAB titles. Lvklock (talk) 21:26, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for asking. I thot i had finished creating all the needed courthouse NRHP dab articles! The dab page rules are that the dab entries should usually show the actual article title, preferably without hidden pipelinks or redirects, and since you started the article at Macon County Courthouse and Annex, that is the name the dab entry should show (as you made it). I added ", Macon, Georgia" following and added towns for other entries. If someone later wants to rename the article to "Macon County Courthouse (Macon, Georgia)" or something else, I wouldn't fight it, i would just update the dab to give the new article name, if i noticed the change. Thanks! doncram (talk) 21:53, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I also created Lewis County Courthouse and Linn County Courthouse DABs today, so you might want to add towns to those, too. I just did them the way the DAB generator spit them out. Do you want me to tag every DAB I do? Lvklock (talk) 22:24, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Visiting those two dabs now. Especially if you're using the DAB generator to make the page, please do tag with {{NRHP dab needing cleanup}} for my review. I would add town names for courthouse ones, perhaps choose to revise those to use (City, State) naming (courthouse naming under discussion at wt:NRHP, and look for other instances using "Who Has" search, to find variations like "Lewis County Courthouse and Jail". Or if the dab is "Smith House" i would add many others of format Firstname Smith House, etc. doncram (talk) 22:32, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually tagging any you create is fine. I am happy to visit them and at least add to my watchlist, so I notice sooner if someone is on an anti-redlinks deletion campaign. doncram (talk) 22:36, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Okay, will do from now on. Also did Martin Hotel and Wardell House today. Lvklock (talk) 22:48, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Ok, visited and watchlisted, thanks.

Marion County, Missouri. Maple Avenue Historic District redirects to an existing article for one in Massachusetts. Please do your DAB magic fixing that up. :) I'll pipelink to Maple Avenue Historic District (Hannibal, Missouri).Lvklock (talk) 22:48, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

 Done

Riverview Park, same county, redirects to existing article, but needs DAB. Lvklock (talk) 23:00, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

 Done, including entry for Riverview Park (Hannibal, Missouri).

Thanks for your help. L-N is done. Lvklock (talk) 00:24, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Jackson County, Cave Spring links to DAB article with only places listed. Would you just include this in the list, or start a new section? Hmmm...one other NRHP has exact name, several with variations. I'm gonna leave this one to you. I'll pipelink the Jackson County one appropriately. Lvklock (talk) 00:43, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

 Done Expanded the dab to include NRHP ones too...

New York Life Building links to one in Manhattan. I'll pipelink the MO one properly and let you wave your wand over the rest. Lvklock (talk) 04:41, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

 Done

Standard Theatre points to an existing article in Toronto. Needs DAB. I'll pipelink appropriately. Lvklock (talk) 17:21, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

 Done

Interesting circumstance here....there are two Jackson County Courthouses, one in Independence and one in Kansas City. A perfect example of why to use more than the state to DAB. Only one of these is NRHP listed, but apparently Harry Truman worked in the other. And, speaking of Harry Truman, there are two listings with his name in them (well, three actually, but two that start with his name), and they are alphabetized differently. One is alpha by Harry and the other alpha by Truman. Change them both to T? Lvklock (talk) 22:55, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, someone had created one article about both of them, and i split them out a year or so ago, while there was a big to-do going on at, i suppose, Talk:Jackson County Courthouse, or in an AfD from there. And yes, interesting about them. Yes, sure about ordering to show together. doncram (talk) 20:50, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm stumped. The Jackson County list has the Inter-State Building on it. The Elkman output lists it in the town of Jackson. The old list has it in Kansas City. I can't get it to come up on the NPS website, or on the MO website that has the nom docs. A web search doesn't give me anything. I think the town of Jackson is probably the error, since it's Jackson Co., but I can't confirm it anywhere. Any ideas? Lvklock (talk) 00:40, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

I see that in the regular Elkman NRHP infobox generator, searching on "Inter-" in MO yields the building, listing it in the town of Jackson. Just started Inter-State Building article to accumulate any info we develop. The Jackson County NRIS-based table includes it, from the Elkman table-generator? That would indicate that the NRIS county info for it is that it is in Jackson County, while Jackson, Missouri is in Cape Girardeau County, Missouri. So, yes, that piece of info plus the old list placement in Kansas City, seem to suggest the town name is in error. (Also could try to see if the street address, which looks like a Kansas City/big city type address, makes any sense at all in Jackson, by a google map search.) Sounds best to assume that Jackson as town is an error, start NRIS info issues report, and change the town name to Kansas City in the list-article and in the new stub article. The NRIS info issue report puts it to the NPS to confirm or contradict, in which case we'd know to go back and change the wikipedia list and stub. doncram (talk) 01:06, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

I checked mapquest, and Jackson, MO seems to have neither Locust nor 13th. In Kansas City I find the intersection of Locust and 13th, so I am convinced that Kansas City is right. Thanks for the idea! And, yes, the Jackson Co. list is huge. I'm getting through it though. Lvklock (talk) 01:54, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Great!

And another stupid, tricky thing. The table for Jackson County lists two places titled District I. There are two Elkman infoboxes, with separate addresses and ref numbers, one added July 23, 1983, the other added Aug 8, 1983. Woukld you consider the one two weeks after the first a boundary increase? It's not labeled as one. Lvklock (talk) 02:40, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

 Done by finding disambiguating terms used by the Missouri state for these.

OK, it's my bedtime. If you have a chance to adress the couple of DAB here, maybe we can get Jackson County done tomorrow. If you don't want to sort thru this section, the "old list" has all of the issues I want to resolve before moving on to another county. Anything you want to deal with, feel free.  :) Lvklock (talk) 04:14, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for dealing with the District I stuff. I dealt with several more things this AM. Now, all that's left is two DABs for you, and some alpha stuff for me that I'd like your input on before I do it. Meanwhile, moving on to Jasper Co. Lvklock (talk) 14:28, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your DAB magic and alpha input. Jackson County is (finally) done. Jasper County, too! Lvklock (talk) 17:13, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

J-K is done. Working on D-I. Lvklock (talk) 20:07, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

V.G. Knock on wood, i am caught up in dab requests within this discussion section.... doncram (talk) 20:50, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of National Historic Landmarks in Indiana/archive1

Hi, I responded to your comments on the FLC but I'm not sure whether it's the right place to continue the discussion as the nomination has been closed but not archived. It's an important issue and one that should be discussed as you pointed out that it seems to affect more than one article. As I mention in my reply, I feel strongly that lists should include all the sources they use as part of academic transparency and so that readers don't have to leave the list to find the source of the information. I don't find the argument that it's intimidating to the reader convincing; there are FAs and FLs with well over 100 citations, and as they come at the end of the article/list it shouldn't be that off putting. Nev1 (talk) 00:14, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

St. Paul's Protestant Episcopal Church

Can't remember where the proper page is; could you add "St. Paul's Protestant Episcopal Church" to the list of disambiguation pages that need to be created? There's apparently one listed in Brooklyn, and there's definitely one in Baltimore. Nyttend (talk) 13:34, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

 Done, started St. Paul's Protestant Episcopal Church disambiguation page. It's fine just to leave me notes here at my Talk page. doncram (talk) 14:40, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Just discovered another, Old Presbyterian Church. It was linked from La Paz County, Arizona and Barnwell County, South Carolina. Nyttend (talk) 15:21, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

 Done by creating Old Presbyterian Church as a disambiguation page. Arguably could have just redirected from there to Presbyterian Church (disambiguation), which included both the AZ and SC churches already. But okay to have the separate, more specific dab. doncram (talk) 15:40, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Reverting

Please do not simply revert in toto edits with which you disagree only in part, as you did with Woodbine. See WP:Reverting: When to revert. We all value the effort we put into WP. ENeville (talk) 20:06, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

NRHP bot request

I'm not sure what I'm looking at. It seems over my head. The wording looks good as long as all of our lists start out exactly the same. Einbierbitte (talk) 22:23, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

There are so many damn categories, I don't know how anyone can keep track of them. I've noticed that some categories get very esoteric (Buildings on the north side of the 100 block of Main Street in Bumfukt, Eqypt) What if right now you concentrate on the major ones such as city/county and ones that have a fair amount of entries (ships?). Then try to sort out the others? Einbierbitte (talk) 22:51, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Kentucky Courthouses

I think we may have some overlap - you might find the Federal Judicial Center database of historic courthouses useful for getting those down. Everything there (including the pictures) is in the public domain, as a publication of the U.S. government. Cheers! bd2412 T 05:27, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

NHLs in Indiana

Thanks for your comments at Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of National Historic Landmarks in Indiana/archive1. They will help me in completing the list. My position on the referencing is in the middle of you and Nev1 as the article currently is. It is insufficient sometimes to just give a general reference and tell users to go to the main article, but it is excessive to clutter the page with tons of citations. I will be gone the next two weeks, but when I return I hope to add all of the application pages to the articles and then rewrite the list's descriptions. Reywas92^Talk 17:53, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

RE: P.O. renames

My views on the names of post offices given by the NPS is that the using of a dash is the NPS' way of disambiguating (instead of the wiki way of using parentheses). Also, for example, U.S. Post Office-Beverly Main is not the name people use to refer to the building (I'd be surprised if people distinguished which post office they were going to, in conversation, with "dash Beverly Main", so I guess WP:COMMONAME would apply. I don't know much about bots, but I wonder if there is a way to get a bot to go around to disambig pages fixing redirects. --​​​​D.B.^{talk•contribs} 19:28, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Greene County, MO

Ambassador Apartments in Springfield links to one in Portland. I'll pipelink, you DAB. :) Lvklock (talk) 20:52, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

 Done

Looks like we're almost done with MO. We need to talk about what to do next. Lvklock (talk) 21:43, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Do you think that Walnut Street Commercial Historic District and West Walnut Street Commercial Historic District should be added to the Walnut Street Historic District DAB page? Lvklock (talk) 22:13, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

But they are included on that dab page already! :)

Here's another judgement thing....NRHP listing is Boonslick State Park, in Boonsboro. The town should be Boonesboro, which is the easy part. I know I should fix that. The site name is actually Boone's Lick State Historic Site. I don't know if it used to be a State Park, and now it's a State Historic Site. So, it seems clear to me it should be changed to Boone's Lick something, but would you use State Park or State Historic Site? I'm confused. Lvklock (talk) 00:33, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

The NRHP name is "Boonslick State Park"? Perhaps that it is an accurate alternative, though perhaps older name for one of those places. Offhand i would leave it as a redlink in the list-article, and mention the others in the comments/description. But put it into wp:NRIS info issues, that the name of the NRHP listing is in question because it does not match either of those current state sites. doncram (talk) 00:42, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

D-I is done. I'm gonna check A-C, but I think you might have finished them. Then it will be bedtime. Lvklock (talk) 01:07, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Robertson House

I've just prodded this page; I've left a rationale here. Swanny18 (talk) 22:44, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Clay County MO

Elms Hotel needs DAB. Existing is for MO one, but there's one elsewhere, too. Lvklock (talk) 02:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

 Done: dab set up. doncram (talk)

More disambiguation

Park Building is in Worcester, MA; however, there's another Park Building in Cleveland. Nyttend (talk) 15:01, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

 Done: dab set up. doncram (talk) 15:21, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Cooper County, MO

Arrow Rock, Prairie View and Ravenswood all need to be incorporated into existing DAB pages. It requires too much thought for me currently, so I'm hoping you can do it. Lvklock (talk) 18:52, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

BTW, I pipelinked these appropriately from the list. The Cs are done. Lvklock (talk) 19:19, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Ravenswood dab and some related pages updated. doncram (talk) 02:56, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I know there's a secret for looking up an ' entry in an Elkman generator, but I can't remember what it is. ie, Anderson's Mill. I tried / and \ in place of '. What the heck is it? Lvklock (talk) 05:42, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I left out the ' when i tried the \. BTW, Spartanburg County, SC is done. Only two to go there now. I'm gonna try to get some sleep right now, though. Hey, what is Dudeman wanting cleaned up in the infoboxes? Some on my watchlist, too. Lvklock (talk) 06:00, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Template updated

NRHP template updated. Let me know if there are any problems, not that I can fix them, but I can revert. Acroterion _(talk) 02:02, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Delaware County, Indiana

Sticky DAB...your area.

• Eaton and vicinity
  • Mount Zion Methodist Episcopal Church ... there should be a disambiguation for this! See Mount Zion disambiguation and check church disambiguation categories

Lvklock (talk) 03:07, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Note: this DAB will finish Delaware County. Marion Co. is big...I'll start it tomorrow. Lvklock (talk) 03:24, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

NRHP Infobox cleanup

So the changes have been implemented, and there are currently 1,460 articles in Category:NRHP infobox needing cleanup. I suspect most of these are CP articles, but we should also check for "designated" parameters. I'm gonna go start working on them now, but if you'd like to help/get a few others to help, that would be appreciated. --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 04:04, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Crap, I've edit conflicted with you 3x just now haha. I was gonna finish out the B's tonight, but it appears as if you've started now haha. I'll stop then and let you continue.. Haha dangit I was really looking forward to finishing out the B's by myself tonight, so I'd feel like I hit a milestone haha.. Oh well. Have at it --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 07:21, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

The total number of articles in the category is now under 1,000. Just a little update :) --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 19:30, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

FLC

You kindly helped me in my project to get List of listed buildings in Runcorn to FL level. I have now submitted its companion list List of listed buildings around Runcorn as a FLC. The format is precisely the same as the one developed for the FL, so that should be OK (and I should be very reluctant to change it). The text has been copyedited. There has been little response since it was submitted, and not all that has been helpful, but a change of titles, as suggested in the discussion, might be a good idea. If you have time, you might like to have a look at it here. Thanks. Peter I. Vardy (talk) 15:10, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Articles for deletion nomination of Coca-cola Bottling Company Building

I have nominated Coca-cola Bottling Company Building, an article that you created, for deletion. I do not think that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Coca-cola Bottling Company Building. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time.

Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. Oscarthecat (talk) 15:06, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Closed as Speedy Keep. doncram (talk) 15:49, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Milwaukee Clipper

[Posting this also at Sanfranman59's talk] Milwaukee Clipper (passenger steamship) is given as an NHL in Muskegon, MI, both at our list and at its NPS profile, but it's currently listed in Lake County, Indiana. Opinion, please: do you think we should move it from there and add it to the Muskegon County list? I've never before dealt with moveable listings that have been moved. Nyttend (talk) 17:17, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment; per Sanfranman's advice, I'm going to change it from Hammond to Muskegon. Original research concerns should be alleviated simply because it's already listed as an NHL in Muskegon. Nyttend (talk) 18:58, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Richland County, SC

Zimmerman House needs DAB. Goes to an NRHP in another state. SC list is pipelinked to Zimmerman House (Columbia, South Carolina). I've finished DAB review and towns. Just need to check against old list. Lvklock (talk) 03:07, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

 Done zimmerman

Thanks. Lvklock (talk) 04:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Status report: IN and SC are both done now. Tomorrow I'll move on to NC. Bedtime. Lvklock (talk) 05:45, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

NRHP table stuff that might have gotten overlooked

I went back through your talk page to check that stuff was resolved. There are a few things that I'm not sure about. You may have looked at them and decided nothing needed to be done, but I thought I'd bring them up again to be sure.

• Trinity Hospital. The one I cam across is in Little Rock, and is pipelinked appropriately, but the existing DAB page is not what I'm used to, and I wasn't sure how to add the Little Rock one.

 Done Yes, the dab was a bit odd.

• Prairie View, Cooper County, MO. It's an NRHP, not the town.

• Manchester Apartments. There's one in Indianapolis. The existing article is an NRHP in Michigan.

 Done

• Oldfields in Indianapolis. There are two listings with the name. I think the second one is effectively a boundary increase, as it seems to be for a secondary building. Don't know whether to merge into one line in the table, or otherwise DAB.

Sorry to be a pest and bring these up a second time. Lvklock (talk) 15:31, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I am aware that there are miscellaneous dab-related and other items in my Talk above, from you and from others, which i have yet to address. I will get to them before archiving from there. Thanks for calling these ones to my attention, not a problem, thanks. doncram (talk) 15:36, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

:) We just both tried to do Anson Co, NC at the same time. You beat me. Is there something else you want me to work on, instead? Lvklock (talk) 20:00, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Question about courthouse DABs. I know you prefer town and state name to just state. I've been tagging ones where it had just state. But, the one I just came upon that has just states was done by you. I'm guessing that means I'm doing the wrong thing, and at the very least I'm confused. So, what do you want me to do with these? State only or Town and State? To tag or not to tag? Lvklock (talk) 21:27, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I've gone over to thinking the courthouse article names should all be with City, State. There are many dabs and articles i previously edited, accepting the State only. If creating a new dab, please use City, State. Or use State. Don't tag courthouse dab articles that were done with State, unless there is some other problem. Thanks! doncram (talk) 21:41, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

OK. But, how should I pipelink one where the DAB has just State? Should I pipelink to (State) or (Town, State)? If (Town, State), should I change the DAB page? If I change the DAB page, just for the one I'm doing, or for all? Lvklock (talk) 21:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Pipelink consistently with whatever is on the dab page. If you want to change what's on the dab page, that's fine too, but i think it's most important to keep it consistent in the two places. There is not consensus that it should be done with City, State vs. State, by the way, so either is currently fine, I guess. doncram (talk) 21:53, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

OK. Thanks. I'm afraid there are going to be some out there that I have made inconsistent. Lvklock (talk) 21:57, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Hebrew Cemetery

New dab: Hebrew Cemetery, with one in Richmond, VA and one (just listed last Friday) in Jackson, MI. I'd suggest that you go for Richmond, since that one has a photo and Jackson doesn't. Nyttend (talk) 21:19, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

 Done. thanks for heads up about the pic, too, it is a very nice pic, added to new stub article.doncram (talk) 23:14, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Returning the favor for the Humphry Marshall House... I believe the Hebrew Cemetery in Richmond already has an article ;-) --​​​​D.B.^{talk•contribs} 23:24, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, funny, i guess we are making work for each other. Thanks for the notice though. I have merged the articles and put in a wp:RM request to move to Hebrew Cemetery (Richmond, Virginia). doncram (talk) 23:39, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

No problem. It turns out that all three Humphry Marshall Houses are one and same (no need for the disambig page now). --​​​​D.B.^{talk•contribs} 01:09, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Cedar Point Light

I've put the unwritten Sandusky light article at Cedar Point Light (Ohio) in line with the convention we've used thus far. Mangoe (talk) 01:46, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Delistings

Do you ever use Elkman for delistings? As I was posting pictures for the Mechanicsburg MRA (in Champaign County, Ohio), I discovered that one property (the Levi Rathbun House) was not listed, and Elkman confirms that it's in the database with a delisted code. Elkman gives a 1990 date for its listing, but as all the rest were listed in 1985, I'm guessing that 1990 is the delisting date. Any idea if this is correct, or if not, how to find the delisting date? Nyttend (talk) 04:27, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I believe you are correct in re: the inclusion of the delist date in Elkman as the Date added.--Pubdog (talk) 11:52, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

evird terces eht ssim adnik I

It was much more fun than opposing mergers. Lvklock (talk) 20:23, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

CT gives me a headache. Lvklock (talk) 15:13, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't know how you have the patience for this stuff, it just annoys me. Lvklock (talk) 19:04, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Bridgewater HD

Just discovered that there are two Bridgewater HDs: one in Beaver County, Pennsylvania, and one in Rockingham County, Virginia. If I had time, I would create the PA district, since I have information (and multiple personal photos) about it, so please create that one. I expect to be able to expand it when I get a chance. Here is the nomination form. Nyttend (talk) 16:39, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Moreover, I've created a category for my Bridgewater photos (some of which aren't yet uploaded): Commons:Category:Bridgewater Historic District. Nyttend (talk) 16:58, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Your wish is my command. Bridgewater Historic District dab started. Bridgewater Historic District (Bridgewater, Pennsylvania) article started. :) doncram (talk) 17:08, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

I've expanded it somewhat, although I don't have as many sources as I expected; perhaps I'll add more information from the nomination form. After four years of college just a few miles away, I'm accustomed to having access to plenty of information about Beaver County than I have now :-( I've found a published print history of the county, so maybe I'll try to get to that and see what I can add. Nyttend (talk) 00:17, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Found another source that I'd not thought of, but more should be coming. Curious your opinion on the architecture categories: two of the three churches in the district, as well as various other buildings, are of various Revival styles. Since there's such a wide range of architectural styles, I'm wondering if it's a good idea to have any architectural style categories on the article. Nyttend (talk) 15:57, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Washington and New York dups

Lots of bridges in Washington state. I appreciate the kudos, but it really wasn't all that much work. It's pretty easy to identify dups using the combination of Elkman's "Ambiguous links in a state" and "Who has" queries and then using Wikipedia's "What links here" tool. --sanfranman59 (talk) 04:08, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

On the other hand, New York was a pain in the rear. For some reason, the NRIS double-lists a bunch of sites in the Saranac Lake area. So there were a lot of false positives in the Elkman ambiguous links tool. I also found 4 listings that are duplicated in their respective county tables: Bronx River Parkway Reservation (Westchester County), Carpenter's Flats Bridge and Delaware and Hudson Railroad Bridge (Clinton County) and Cornell Heights Historic District (Tompkins County). Would you mind taking a look to see if you agree that the duplicates should be combined into one row each? As best as I can determine, each pair has the same NRHP reference number, so I don't think they're different sites. --sanfranman59 (talk) 05:59, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Elkman's "Ambiguous links in a state" tool is here. From this, it's pretty easy to guess from the names which might be duplicates (bridges, certain district names, canals and the like). I then use the "Who has" tool to see if the ambiguous names have identical ref nums. If they do, I click on the link to open the page in Wikipedia and then use the "What links here" tool to identify which of our state/county/city/town pages have these links.

When you say that "Mwanner has been very clear that those are duplications", I assume this means that you think he would agree that they should be combined in the applicable county table? --sanfranman59 (talk) 06:25, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

You're correct ... All of the duplicate listings in the Saranac Lake area are only listed once in our county tables. The other 4 that I found may be a little different than the others in that I think they're sites that could very well be located in more than one city/town (2 bridges, a parkway system and a historic district that may straddle a city/town boundary). If they're in the same county, it seems to me that they should be comvined into a single listing in our tables, with both localities indicated in the City/Town column. What could be problematic is if someone breaks one of the towns into a separate list article. They will need to be sure to include these listings in the new table and then account for the duplicate in the county tally table in the state article. --sanfranman59 (talk) 17:15, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Oklahoma dups

Hi don ... As you now know, my latest project is to confirm duplicate listings in our state/county/city/town tables and to find and document additional duplicates. Back in May, you added the following note to National Register of Historic Places listings in Oklahoma:

• Bridgeport Hill-Hydro Route 66 Segment appears in both Caddo County and Canadian County.

The Elkman county table generator only has this listing in Canadian County. I also checked the raw NRIS database and it also only has the site in Canadian County (not surprising, given that Elkman's tool uses that database as its source). Can you shed any light on this? Thanks. --sanfranman59 (talk) 05:29, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I see my own related note at Talk:National Register of Historic Places listings in Oklahoma#Caddo county research issues. It means that the "old list", pre-table-izing, had the place included in the Caddo county list, while in NRIS I found only in Canadian county. Also I stated there: "If the listed area does span 2 counties, then this is a duplicate that needs to be noted at state-wide list page (and i put in an entry there). If the listed area does not span the county border, but rather is just 'close to' a town in other county, then the duplication topic footnote at state-wide list is to be dropped." Since no one has come forward with any information, I think it would be fine for you to delete it from being covered in the state duplication section. Just perhaps add some comment to the Talk page about it, updating about what you did, to hold out the possibility that someone will research it and find out something different. doncram (talk) 06:14, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Fourth Street Historic District (Sioux City, Iowa)

Hi Don: any idea on how to fix the auto map for Fourth Street Historic District (Sioux City, Iowa)? It shows it in Illinois.... I'll ask Nyttend also. Thanks, Bill.

Nyttend said he'd fix it. Thanks! Bill Whittaker (talk) 14:05, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Old Dutch Church

Sorry I (briefly) wiped out your edit ... I thought I had created the conflict through something else I'd done. In any event I restored the source you added.

I have finally gotten around to being able to work on this one. The decision to rename the article was easy ... if even the church's own website uses it as its domain name, it's got to be the common name. Daniel Case (talk) 15:01, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Adams Magoun House, etc.

Hello. Sorry for bypassing process.

I have made the posts you suggested.

Comments:

1) It would be easier to make new posts if http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NRIS_info_issues were a complete framework. It's one thing to add a line to a list; it's something else to have to add a section to the framework. Adding a section obviously isn't a big deal, but it's a nuisance to have to decide what to name it and in what order it should go (names and order are not consistent). Not a big deal.

2) I appreciate the effort that went into putting all (at least Massachusetts and Illinois) the NRHPs places into lists on Wikipedia and, in Somerville, at least, in creating individual stubs for each place. It would be another good step if the creator of such pages used the tool "Map All Coordinates from Bing" (the similar Google Maps tool wasn't working) after completing a list. Gross errors, such as the Adams Magoun coords, stand out like a sore thumb.

Yes, and good point. All the list-articles of NRHPs have been created now with the google/Bing map links. I think a lot of cases of bad coordinates have been noticed and fixed, but surely there remain a good many more yet to catch.

3) There ought to be some way to ask/tell people like me who may edit an NRHP article only very occasionally that an entry at WikiProject National Register of Historic Places/NRIS information issues is helpful. Seems like a lot of work for you to catch every one.

Actually there are not too very many people editing NRHP articles, so it has been working to contact new ones when they edit a few articles. I'd certainly be open to some other way to operate, but can't think of any alternative at the moment.

4) In browsing through the list, I saw the following in the section "Massachusetts: town location issue": * Parker House (Blue Hill, Maine), which has refnum 04001047 is listed in NRIS as being in "Bluee Hill, ME" rather than Blue Hill, Maine. doncram (talk) 16:40, 13 February 2009 (UTC) batch04:20

I figured I'd let you move it since you surely know that Maine has not been part of Massachusetts since 1820. Jameslwoodward (talk) 11:45, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I wouldnt have been close in terms of estimating when Maine split out. :) Moved. Thanks! doncram (talk) 15:49, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm new enough to this so that I don't really understand the protocol -- when does one exchange thoughts on my page, when on yours, and when on both, with my comments on your page and yours on mine?

Thanks for creating the Lloyd Lewis house stub -- you anticipated me -- I spent some time in the house in the Fifties -- friends of my parents lived there, they had a son my age, and we visited every couple of weeks for a few years. The coords given are wrong -- the house at those coords is too big and oriented in the wrong direction -- nothing Usonian there. It's actually the next house south from the given coords along the river, the one at 42.2585N, 87.9350W.

This is a little strange -- when I type the coords 42.2585N, 87.9350W into Bing, I come up with a summer view in Birdseye and can't see the house. When I go to Birdseye from the coords given in your new article (42°15′37″N 87°56′8″W), I get a winter view. If I then pan slowly down the river (south), I come to a winter view of the actual Lloyd Lewis House, with the bottom third of the image black. It's clear they run out of winter image there, because if you continue to pan south, the Birdeye switches to summer view and won't go back.Jameslwoodward (talk) 22:59, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Kerchoonz article in sandbox

Thanks for the help and feedback on the kerchoonz article. Do you think that the article in my sandbox is ok to move to a real page?

also, I just had a quick question about an article I started as a stub about a Fashion designer Hannah Marshall. I am having trouble finding photos that would be ok to add to wikimedia. I guess that it needs to have certain licenses or are photos that are already in google searches ok to use?Cheaperbydozen (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:40, 1 August 2009 (UTC).

National Register of Historic Places featured properties and districts

The list is a month behind. I'll try to get to it this week if you don't. Lvklock (talk) 03:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Updated the list. Now just gotta catch up on articles. Lvklock (talk) 01:41, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Want me to finish up the Merced Theatre refs? Lvklock (talk) 17:25, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Merced Theatre article needs a pic. Do you know someone there you can ask? Lvklock (talk) 00:19, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for finding that pic. Lvklock (talk) 18:19, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Broken Coords

Hi. In order to clean up Category:Coord template needing repair, would you mind if I changed a couple of instances of {{coord}} in User:Doncram/Sandbox6? They need to be rolled over to one more minute and zero seconds, e.g. from "{{45|35|60|N..." to "{{coord|45|36|0|N...".
—WWoods (talk) 02:08, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

It would have been fine, in fact i don't think you need to ask, but I just blanked that sandbox page anyhow. Thanks for asking though. doncram (talk) 15:12, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Review request

Hi, in the past you have provided very helpful reviews at featured list candidates for lists of buildings. It would be nice if you could provide one for Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of new churches by John Douglas/archive1. Thanks, Dabomb87 (talk) 15:27, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

date of maritime museum photo

I suspect you meant 2009, not 2008. dm (talk) 13:53, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, thanks. I just fixed date i miss-entered in commons upload. Hopefully that is the only place. doncram (talk) 13:57, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

NC stuff

• Governors Island. There's one in Swain County. The existing article is for one in NY. Lvklock (talk) 00:04, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

added to Governors Island (disambiguation)

• McDowell County Courthouse. The article exists for one in WV. One on NC McDowell County list has not been pipelinked, because I wasn't sure if you'd do Town, State or just State. Lvklock (talk) 03:29, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

done

• Grice-Fearing House appears on the old list for Pasquotank County. The house article claims NRHP listing. I can't find an individual listing. I checked the new listings from 4/17/09 forward and the Elkman generator & whohas. It IS mentioned in this MPS * National Register of Historic Places Multiple Property Submission: Elizabeth City MPS (page 7). It MAY be part of the Shepard Street-South Road Street Historic District. I know I will leave it out of the table, and I left a note at the Grice-Fearing House talk page. I'm not sure if you want to do anything else about it at the moment. Lvklock (talk) 16:03, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

commented at Talk:Grice-Fearing House. What more to do? This should be addressed.

I assumed and asserted it is part of that historic district. it is located at 200 South Road Street, street which is part of HD name. I'm done with it.

• Fort Johnston. The one in Brunswick county is NRHP. The existing article is about one in VA. Pipelinking NC one. Lvklock (talk) 16:19, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

 Done

• Five Points Historic District in Staly Co. The existing article is one in Huntsville, Alabama. Pipelinking NC one. Lvklock (talk) 18:38, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

 Done

other notes

One of these 2 must have a misspelling:

• YWCA, Phyllis Weatley Branch, St. Louis, MO, listed on the NRHP in Missouri
• Phillis Wheatley YWCA, Washington, DC, listed on the NRHP in Washington, D.C.

The correct name is Phillis Wheatley. I'm starting the MO one's article in order to address it, and fixing its entry at National Register of Historic Places listings in St. Louis (city, M–Z), and adding it one to wp:NRIS info issues.

Here's the info for the Barnhardt House listing from the May 15, 2009 new listings (note the spelling):

NORTH CAROLINA, DAVIE COUNTY,

Barnhardt, George E., House,

291 Hartley Rd.,

Mocksville vicinity, 09000289,

LISTED, 5/04/09

information was used, thanks.

I'm going to take a break for a little while. Go ahead and add it or I can do it later. --sanfranman59 (talk) 00:45, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I guess i was searching on the wrong spelling. Added row for it to Davie County. Otherwise, i am done for a while now, perhaps the whole evening. It will be interesting to see if all gets done, still on this day, or not. Thanks. doncram (talk) 02:01, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

HEY!!!IT'S DONE, TABLEIZING IS DONE!!! 11:56 Eastern time. YOU'RE NOT ON TO CELEBRATE!! HAPPY FOURTH OF JULY!!!! Lvklock (talk) 03:57, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

i was very glad you got it done! all items in this discussion section addressed now. doncram (talk) 10:42, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

NRIS info issues

Orlady posed a question about this at WT:NRHP. I answered to the best of my knowledge, but you might want to check my answer and make sure I didn't leave anything out. Lvklock (talk) 18:03, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Lvklock (talk) 18:34, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

DYKs

Hey dude.. I don't know if you've noticed, but I've been focusing a lot lately on National Register of Historic Places listings in Lauderdale County, Mississippi. I've uploaded several pictures (more of which I'm about to upload) and created several articles over the past week or so including McLemore Cemetery, Meridian Baptist Seminary, Stuckey's Bridge, and Pigford Building. I've never done a DYK before, so I don't really know the qualifications, but I was wondering if perhaps one (or more) of these articles would meet the criteria. Think you can take a look at them?

P.S. – I've been feeling alone lately at Category:NRHP infobox needing cleanup; seems I'm the only one working there now. The article count is down to just above 800 at the moment, though :). --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 06:48, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I just nominated Meridian Baptist Seminary because I found the hook to be more interesting. The school was the first school in Mississippi to issue high school diplomas to African-Americans, so I think that's going to pass pretty easily. Thanks! --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 02:45, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

nationalregisterofhistoricplaces.com acreage is off by 10

I did some research on the acreage listings in the National Register database, both in the main table (which I use for the infobox generator and which nationalregisterofhistoricplaces.com uses for its output) and in the spatial database. It turns out that the acreage listed at nationalregisterofhistoricplaces.com is off by a factor of 10, because they didn't realize the acreage in one of the tables should have had a decimal point in there.

I can add the acreage to the infobox generator if it would be worthwhile.

I mentioned this discrepancy at WT:NRHP already, but I'm going to copy it to a few of the talk pages of editors who have been dealing with this problem lately. (In other words, sorry for the spam.) --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 21:34, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Re: Hamer Hall and Hamer House articles

I don't necessarily agree that replacing the former combo dab article for Hamer Hall and Hamer House, covering 2 of the former and 4 of the later, by the way you set it up, is better. I already restored the dab page and commented at Talk:Hamer Hall, and set up new Hamer Hall (Australia) with a merger proposal for it to be just a section within The Arts Centre (Melbourne). I further thought (incorrectly) that all the disambiguation for Hamer House had been lost in the process; i see now that you had set up Hamer House disambig page. So I am not as "miffed" as I was at first. Anyhow, I suggest the best way to treat these could be discussed at Talk:Hamer Hall. Cheers, doncram (talk) 02:06, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

The concert hall is clearly the primary topic in this case. I replied in detail at Talk:Hamer Hall. --bainer (talk) 02:57, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Chicago Theatre/GA1

I will be addressing issues at Talk:Chicago Theatre/GA1 this week, but could use some assistance.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 20:21, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Naming of lists

This is driving me crazy - or crazier than I was before Wikilife. The very first list I wrote was entitled "Listed buildings in Runcorn". Then for some reason I cannot remember I was persuaded to re-title it "List of listed buildings in Runcorn", which I did not think was the best title, but others seemed to know better. Then every time I submit a list at FLC people seem to take more interest in changing its title than is assessing it against the FL criteria. When I wrote a list about the listed buildings in the surroundings of Runcorn I entitled it "List of listed buildings around Runcorn" to differentiate it from the original list. This seemed to be unacceptable, so the titles were changed to "List of listed buildings in Runcorn (urban area)" and "List of listed buildings in Runcorn (rural area)", which is where we are now. I have prepared four lists on the works of the architect John Douglas and submitted the first as a FLC with the title "List of works by John Douglas (new churches)", which has now been changed to "List of new churches by John Douglas" and two of the companion lists have been changed accordingly (not sure what to do about the "other buildings"). So what is the consensus? I thought it was that all lists should be entitled "List of.....", presumably to show they are lists and not articles. Has this been discussed at a higher level? If so I should like to be directed to the discussion. I've had a look at the FLs of listed buildings and they are all entitled "List of....". If a consensus contrary to this develops, all these (and I guess many more) will have to be changed. See why I am going crazier?!!! By the way I do not think the prime reason for changing the John Douglas title was mainly just to get rid of parentheses, was it? Peter I. Vardy (talk) 17:40, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Ponce City Hall

(copied by User:Rob99324 from User talk:Rob99324: Sorry, I came to post an encouraging type note, as I was happy to see some development in Puerto Rico NRHP articles, but then I see this copyright issue being raised here. And, I am sorry, but I don't agree with you that the copyright violations had been removed. Please see my comments at Talk:Ponce City Hall where I compare Puerto Rico encyclopedia to your cleaned up text, for one sentence. Based on my quick review, it appears to me that you should consult guidelines about wp:plagiarism as well as wp:copyright violation in wikipedia. Perhaps you are trying to write by first cutting-and-pasting text from another website, and then editing it to make it somewhat different. However, I strongly recommend that you do not do that. It will almost certainly constitute plagiarism if you work that way. Instead, get and read sources, and then put things entirely into your own words. I apologize if I may be assessing this wrong, based on a non-random sample. But, your reputation as an editor is at stake, and you will lose the privilege of editing in wikipedia if you violate copyright and/or plagiarism guidelines, so I advise you to be careful now. To remove questions about the Ponce City Hall article, I have restarted the article from scratch. doncram (talk) 22:57, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't take threats very lighlty , especially when they have to do with my integrity and good intentions. I have violated no wiki policies; all my edits gave adequate credit to their owners. But seeing that your motivation at this point is clearly political, I suggest you go ahead and start the machinery rolling to block me from editing: trust me, I will lose no sleep over it. Good night. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rob99324 (talk • contribs) 23:24, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Replied at User talk:Rob99324. doncram (talk) 23:39, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Merced Theatre

Hello! Your submission of Merced Theatre at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Taiwantaffy (talk) 08:09, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I took care of this. Lvklock (talk) 14:30, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

This is all approved, just a matter of time now. :) Lvklock (talk) 00:39, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

No longer shows on template talk:DYK....that means it's in the queue, right? Lvklock (talk) 14:24, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

I added it to Template:Did you know/Preparation area 1. You can look at Template:Did you know/Queue to check the progress of hooks that have been moved off the nom page but aren't yet on the main page. --Orlady (talk) 14:34, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Orlady! Lvklock (talk) 14:45, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Calumet Downtown Historic District

Why redirect? Nyttend (talk) 16:33, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I set up a redirect from Calumet Downtown Historic District to Calumet, Michigan earlier, only because I noticed that the Houghton County NRHP list had a pipelink from Calumet Downtown HD to that target, and the NRHP Infobox was included at the target already, and so on. The development of coverage of the HD in the town article might have happened at time of 2008 NHL development drive, when it was not understood that the NHLD Calumet Historic District is different from the HD Calumet Downtown Historic District. I went as far as creating the now-separate Calumet Historic District article, and trying to fix what appears in the Calumet, Michigan article.

Sure, I would support now splitting out the "Downtown" HD from the Calumet article, if anyone wants to develop it. Go ahead, if you like. There might be adequate info about the HD in the available NRHP document for the NHLD. But i've done enough there today. (Also i opened Linden Lake Historic District, about a nearby village section, by the way.) doncram (talk) 16:48, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, no time at the moment. Nyttend (talk) 17:22, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Sandusky, Ohio NRHPs

By the way, do you have time to create Eleutheros Cooke House? There are two such houses in Sandusky, Ohio. If you have time to create it, would you be willing to use the format Eleutheros Cooke House (1415 Columbus Avenue, Sandusky, Ohio) and Eleutheros Cooke House (410 Columbus Avenue, Sandusky, Ohio)? Don't worry about updating the Erie County list; I'm in process of splitting out the Sandusky listings into a separate page, and I'll be changing the links there. Thanks! Nyttend (talk) 17:22, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Another request — Hinde & Dauch Paper Co., with three entries:

• Hinde & Dauch Paper Company (Decatur Street, Sandusky, Ohio)
• Hinde & Dauch Paper Company (Shoreline Drive, Sandusky, Ohio)
• Hinde & Dauch Paper Company (Water Street, Sandusky, Ohio)

Again, thanks! Nyttend (talk) 17:27, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay, i created disambiguation page Eleutheros Cooke House and started stubs for the two NRHP places. I wonder, since they are both Greek Revival homes on the same avenue, apparently associated with the same person, perhaps there should be just one merged article at Eleutheros Cooke Houses, with redirects from the separate names. Actually i think that would be better, but i already set up the separate articles. Maybe now I will create one merged article for the Hinde & Dauch Paper Company, redirecting those separate items to it. doncram (talk) 17:49, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! As far as Watertown — the description that I get from the NRIS (specifically, "East of State Route 339 and north of State Route 676") indicates to me that the entire community is included. Acreage from the NRIS download (NOT the 10×reality nrohp.com acreage) seems to me to indicate likewise. Nyttend (talk) 19:46, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Merced Theatre

On August 15, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Merced Theatre, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page (here's how) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 08:15, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Did you see this while it was up? It was my first one with a picture. Lvklock (talk) 16:29, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

It's a nice hook and an eye-catching image. It will be interesting to see how many hits it got while on the main page. --Orlady (talk) 21:13, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

L, I know u've had DYK's with pics in the article and DYK nom, u must mean this was ur first to survive with pic in DYK. Thanks, Orlady, for putting it in with the pic. I saw it in the prep area, not on the main page tho. doncram (talk) 21:29, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that it what I meant. I never got a picture posted on DYK before; I've always had one available. Lvklock (talk) 02:35, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

I have a pdf of it on the front page, if you want to see it. Lvklock (talk) 17:12, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Elks

Hey, I'm afraid I might have messed with the Elks page while you were working on it. I added one I knew of before I realized you had the raw list to work from below. If it edit conflicts, feel free to overwrite my version, or reverse it. Yours will be much more complete. Lvklock (talk) 16:32, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

NPS Focus

There's is a notice on the NRIS page detailing that the NPS Focus is intended to replace the NRIS. My thought is that if NRIS is taken down when NPS Focus is complete, there is going to be a lot a dead links, but if they don't, NPS Focus provides the same information in a more user friendly format. I don't believe there is a way to link directly to a particular site (I heard rumors that that could be in the works for Focus). Right now, it appears that the site is down, however, as it was working yesterday. --​​​​D.B.^{talk•contribs} 20:18, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

In my experience, NRIS has had many outages, so I wouldn't infer much significance from its being down right now. If it does get terminated when "Focus" is fully functional, I hope that somebody will figure out a way to automate the "fix." --Orlady (talk) 21:12, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Linden Lake Historic District

I'm happy either way on constructing the article. It's on my List of Things to Do, but I don't particularly care if it's at the top or later on or if someone else entirely developed the article. As a suggestion, I could put together something medium-sized fairly quickly, and caption the images, to serve as a base. Andrew Jameson (talk) 22:01, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

OK, starting now. Andrew Jameson (talk) 23:33, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

And there it is. I've sketched in some basic information into the article, and carefully captioned all the pictures to say exactly what they are (also added one more). Take it away. Andrew Jameson (talk) 01:35, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm not so good at DYK phrasing, but (I just added this) the reason the village mandated brick-and-stone construction is because otherwise the insurance companies threatened to pull out of the area. If you could work that in, it'd be a stronger hook, I think.

(Also, by the by, I almost didn't take these pix--I printed out a list of NRHP properties in the Keweenaw just before I went on a trip there, but only photographed the ones that were near where we were. We decided last-minute to hike to a waterfall a couple miles south of Lake Linden, so I swung by and got these images. I didn't even realize the District was so new.) Andrew Jameson (talk) 02:25, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I liked that fact, too, about the insurance companies. I'll take a stab at working it in. Lvklock (talk) 02:53, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

OK. So, mine was too long. I want to count spaces towards 1500 characters of text, but NOT count them towards DYK hooks. Lvklock (talk) 16:25, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I tweaked yours a little bit. "... that the Lake Linden Historic District (pictured) was rebuilt largely of brick after insurance companies with heavy losses in an 1887 fire threatened to pull out of the area?" Should rebuilt have a hyphen (re-built)? Lvklock (talk) 15:45, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Good. I like your version best. Lvklock (talk) 17:27, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Has been confirmed. Just a matter of time now. 15:46, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

In queue 6, no pic. Lvklock (talk) 17:36, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

NRHPs

Hi- Thanks for pointing out the discussion about the naming problems for the NRHP lists. I obviously wasn't aware of it, but I did wonder why all of the pages for the NRHPs had been renamed and were showing up as double-redirects with the Wikipedia cleaner. Were the lists renamed because of the policy of not using acronyms? Is there any possibility that the list names would be changed back? If not, then shouldn't the links be piped to the current names of the NRHP lists? Any clarification would be appreciated! --Funandtrvl (talk) 17:24, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Comment

In hindsight, the comment was very unfair and I'm sorry. The entire process frustrated me to no end, even worse than the GA process for the Mobile article. And I had to go through the process twice with that one. I'm not happy with the end results of Alabama's NHL list FLC either. I wanted something everyone could be happy with, and we ended up with something nobody is happy with. I think almost everyone involved, myself included, was too stubborn. Altairisfar_talk 20:40, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Category:Top-importance Chicago articles

For the rest of this month we are looking for more candidates to be promoted to Category:Top-importance Chicago articles. We are hoping to bring the list of category members to a total of 50. Either you have participated in past votes and discussions or you have recently signed up to be a part of WP:CHICAGO. In either case, please come visit Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Chicago/Assessment where we are determining who to add to the September 1st ballot. Some candidate debates have lingered, but there are many new ones from the project's top 50 according to the Wikipedia:Release Version 0.7. Help us determine which pages to add to the ballot.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:13, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for stopping by to comment. Your visit inspired me to make 5 more nominations that you may want to comment on. I am also surprise you had no opinion on Architecture of Chicago.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 23:00, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Old Post Office (Buffalo, New York)

Thanks for taking care of correcting the name of the article Old Post Office (Buffalo, New York). I did not create the original article and simply embellished. I very much appreciate you taking the initiative to correct that error. According to the NYS Office of Parks, Recreation, and Historic Preservation the name is U.S. Post Office Buffalo. Ted--Pubdog (talk) 23:01, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

octagon houses

How do you know if an octagon house is notable? Just those on NRHP? Lvklock (talk) 03:36, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Lake Linden Historic District

On August 20, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Lake Linden Historic District, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page (here's how) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Wikiproject: Did you know? 23:00, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

OK, great! Andrew Jameson (talk) 00:17, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Rijksmonuments

"The program started in 1988. Or it started in 1954."

How about, "According to _______ the program started in 1988, though _______ claims it started in 1954." That would be more encyclopedic sounding, and reflect existing confusion instead of just creating more. If you direct me to your sources, I'll try to fix it later. Lvklock (talk) 14:29, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Great! Lvklock (talk) 16:30, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Hello! Your submission of Rijksmonument at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Materialscientist (talk) 04:30, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Unesco WHS

Are we replacing all of the country designations with the whole name? Lvklock (talk) 08:25, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Is EUR and higher priority than the rest? Lvklock (talk) 15:10, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Working on EUR chunk 1. Just letting you know to avoid edit conflicts. Lvklock (talk) 17:44, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Splitting a list

You've helped with splitting overlarge city lists, so would you be willing to help decide how to split Denver? I've made an initial proposal at talk. Nyttend (talk) 01:31, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Rijksmonuments

Re your fact tag, all those listed are in the category for Rijksmonuments. Mjroots (talk) 10:24, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

All windmills that are in the Rijksmonuments category have the RM number and a source for it. Mjroots (talk) 12:01, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

You may be interested in this discussion stated by user:CzechOut. Mjroots (talk) 09:07, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, the article is in the queue for DYK, should be live about 6pm UK time. Mjroots (talk) 11:20, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Durham School

I was wondering why you've created a disambiguation page for Durham School? The links I've looked at almost all seem to point to the one in England (Durham_School_(Durham,_England). I've put more detail on the Durham School talk page.--Teach46 (talk) 10:54, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for getting back on this. In response to your accusation of WP:OWN, User:Teach46's page says he or she is based in Durham, but I have never visited the city, and my only edit to the article before yesterday was in a recategorization sweep. I noticed this issue when a surprising disambiguation popped up on a page on my watchlist. However even with your greater distance, I would have thought that a quick look at the two articles involved should have suggested consideration of the primary topic question, before moving an article with so many incoming links. Kanguole 09:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

NRHP PDF Focus photos for 2 steamships

No problem. I disagree, but I'd rather see what the concensus is. Andrew Jameson (talk) 11:38, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Fiddler's Reach Fog Signal

I beefed up your hook a little. Hope you don't mind. Lvklock (talk) 15:08, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Page 11 of nom form. 3rd paragraph under heading "Developmental history/additional historic context information". 2nd sentence. "...the bell at the fog bell station had to be wound every four hours." What I picture is that the counterweights were raised by a rope wrapped around a windlass type thing that was wound (page 10, 1st paragraph). To me, this was of most interest when i read the nom...picturing the guy going every four hours in nasty weather along a treacherous path to wind the bell. Lvklock (talk) 15:31, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I suppose you could go with re-set instead of wound. Lvklock (talk) 15:34, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I should add a thank-you for your very rapid pickup of the NRHP listing of the subject. As you may have guessed, I was on the Kennebec last week taking pictures, and had it not been for your timeliness I might have ignored the subject (then again, I might well have recognized it since it matches the one at Perkins Island Light. Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk) 15:43, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Rijksmonument

On August 27, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Rijksmonument, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page (here's how) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

NW (Talk) 17:07, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I had already received my DYK and moved it to my DYK sub-page! <g> Mjroots (talk) 19:28, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Denver

I've completed the split of the Denver listings; what do you think? Nyttend (talk) 18:32, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Charles Durrett

Hello! Your submission of Charles Durrett at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Allen3 ^talk 12:57, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Charles Durrett

On September 1, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Charles Durrett, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page (here's how) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

— Jake Wartenberg 11:15, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Brook Farm disambiguation page moved

I just wanted to let you know that I moved what had been [[Brook Farm]] to Brook Farm (disambiguation). This was a disambig page you had created, and Brook Farm in Mass. is a "primary topic" (in this case a significant historical site and solid article -- see Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Is_there_a_primary_topic.3F), whereas the other two Brook Farms are minor stubs. I added a disambiguation note at the top, in accordance with standard Wikipedia practice.

Thanks,
BCorr|Брайен 14:46, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Zion

Actually, the NRHP documents for a lot of Zion's properties are copies of the Park Service inventory documents, which are fairly useless. The NPS did a poor job of documenting their own properties in the 80s and didn't consistently follow the rules that applied to all other jurisdictions. I suspect that enthusiasm for the National Register at the NPS was quite variable, with different park superintendents having different levels of enthusiasm for historic structures, and at the big natural feature-oriented parks with significant facilities management issues, enthusiasm for documenting something that might turn out to be a headache later was non-existent. Witness the whole sad (pre-NRHP) story of the Canyon Hotel in Yellowstone, which was essentially allowed to burn down because it was thought a white elephant, even though it was a Robert Reamer building, fully as important as the Old Faithful Inn. It'd be an NHL today if it had been allowed to survive. I've been meaning to take a day in DC and see what I might find in the NPS archives; there's probably a moderate book in the story of that hotel, but it seems to have been ignored with some care. The vanished Old Faithful Museum, a companion to the Norris, Madison and Fishing Bridge Museums, now collectively NHLs, is another example. The same applies to many lesser structures. Acroterion _(talk) 03:18, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Fiddler's Reach Fog Signal

On September 4, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Fiddler's Reach Fog Signal, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page (here's how) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

— Jake Wartenberg 17:14, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Hit the main page with picture and all! Lvklock (talk) 20:06, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Kennebec River Lights Comment

Actually your comment on my talk page, which you later undid, was helpful. It clarifies for me how to handle problematic data in the NRHP infobox. As I understand it now, it's leave the name as is, but correct othography on everything else.

• What about changing "Department of Transportation" to "U.S. Coast Guard" when appropriate?
• Do we change anything else if it's wrong?
• What about cases where the "Year First Constructed" in NRIS (in the case of a lighthouse) is the date the light was originally established, but the current structure was built later with no trace of the original structure remaining?

Thanks, Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 12:04, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Okay, good then. Basically, the NRIS database info made available through the Elkman interface, or otherwise obtained, is usually good but definitely should be corrected when wrong and when you have a source for different information. The NRIS-supplied data is sourced, even when it is wrong, and the source is indicated by the NRIS footnote that is usually attached just to the NRHP refnum at the end, but meant to support all the other infobox information. If you change a datum I think you should provide a different reference for the item, as if to replace a separate NRIS footnote on that specific item, and/or provide your reasoning at wp:NRIS info issues, which is a central collection point for documentation of problems with NRIS data. In general, besides for coordinates corrections, if something is wrong, I and some others would like to receive a report of that at wp:NRIS info issues, where we have been collecting instances of bad info, and working with the National Register to correct that info in batches. We do this for a few reasons, including to try to head off future editors from "correcting" our corrections back to the available but incorrect NRIS info. Note, if there is something actually incorrect in NRIS, it will also be wrong in other mirrors of the NRIS data, e.g. private website http://www.nationalregisterofhistoricplaces.com (which i refer to as "NRHP.COM") and www.archiplanet.com and elsewhere. Like Elkman's system, those others refresh their information periodically after the National Register makes available a new downloadable copy of its database, which it has been doing once or twice a year. The next version will reflect about 4 batches of corrections that the National Register has so far implemented (just a day or two ago i received email notice they had gotten around to the 4th batch). We no longer collect coordinates corrections info, because there is just too much volume to track those, and there are other mechanisms for the National Register to correct their coords info, and it even already has and uses better coords info than is available in the Elkman-supplied version of NRIS data. So providing them our corrections would not be useful to them.

About the "date built" field in Elkman output, I believe that Elkman may be handling the information as best can be done, but that the underlying NRIS data is ambiguous. The date field in NRIS in some cases refers to a date that a house was built, and in in other cases to the date of a significant event, such as the birthdate of a U.S. president born in the house. The NRIS database reflects data entry person's quick judgment of how to take information from the NRHP application form for a newly listed site. Typos can be introduced, and what date is most relevant to put into one available significant date field is ambiguous. Perhaps the Elkman output should be labelled differently: it currently displays as "Date built", which is probably the most usual meaning for the significant date. In the NRIS database, it may be labelled more ambiguously as "Significant date" or something like that. For lighthouses where you have other sources, you should certainly revise what is displayed in the lighthouse and/or NRHP infoboxes as far as possible to display what you know to be correct. It sounds like you should often simply delete the date built field from the NRHP infobox. In such cases, since there is not something actually incorrect in NRIS (since the date is in fact a significant date), I don't know if i would bother with a NRIS info issues report. doncram (talk) 15:26, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Belmont

No, the Belmont on the NRHP is in Bucks County, whereas the the Belmont Mansion is in Philadelphia. The other variations I saw were a CDP in Cambria County and the a former municipality incorporated into Philapdelphia. Are there any other variations I may have missed? ​​​​​​​​Niagara ​​^{Don't give up the ship} 17:29, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Kentucky nomination forms?

Any idea how to find nomination forms for Kentucky online? There's nothing at WP:NRHP about it. Images at Campbellsville Historic Commercial District, plus File:MerchantHotel 26687.jpg, look like they're taken from a form, but they're claimed as own work. I've asked the uploader if these really are his own work, but if there's a way to find out without waiting for a reply from him, I'd like to use it. Searching online doesn't help; the only nomination form that I found with a search was an Illinois property that referenced this district for some reason. Thanks! Nyttend (talk) 01:43, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Never mind, I've found the photos elsewhere online. Nyttend (talk) 02:05, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

(ec) Is the map in the Campbellsville Historic Commercial District article the same map which appears here? I found that by browsing in the first external link of the article. I just browsed some in the Kentucky Heritage Council webpages which cover NRHP application processes for Kentucky, but i don't see a list of any besides their NHLs and Kentucky state historic sites listed there (and no individual descriptions or documents for even those). So besides browsing further there, no I don't have any great ideas about how to find Kentucky nomination forms. doncram (talk) 02:07, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the help. Yes, that was the map; it's been deleted as a derivative work. One of the other two pictures was on Commons, and it's now been deleted as a copyvio; the other was uploaded locally, so I deleted it. Nyttend (talk) 15:31, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Nominations open for the Military history WikiProject coordinator election

The Military history WikiProject coordinator selection process has started; to elect the coordinators to serve for the next six months. If you are interested in running, please sign up here by 23:59 (UTC) on 12 September!
Many thanks,  Roger Davies ^talk 04:24, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Listing Information and questions

As I said I might, I went out yesterday and photographed five NRHP sites within walking distance. Three are no problem, but in two cases, I'm not absolutely positive which building is meant. The coords are no help as they aren't accurate enough. I did a little looking on the web, but can't come up with photos or descriptions. Help?

• Metropolitan District Commission Stable -- the site has a large non-descript barn and an interesting office building/police barracks associated with the stables. Which? Both? (also on the same site is the Blue Hills Headquarters which is easy to identify).

• Refreshment Pavillion should be obvious since one of the buildings on site is currently a refreshment pavillion. However, there are two buildings on the site. The other, an interesting shingle style building that might once have been a refreshment pavillion, says on a poster inside that it is "eligible for listing on the National Register of Historic Places".

Finally, yesterday, as you probably saw, I moved The Graves Light from National Register of Historic Places listings in Plymouth County, Massachusetts to National Register of Historic Places listings in Boston, Massachusetts. That was a no-brainer, as the light is entirely in Boston. As we discussed last week, Brookwood Farm is mostly in Canton and the Old Barn is entirely in Canton. Should one or both be moved from National Register of Historic Places listings in Milton, Massachusetts to National Register of Historic Places listings in Norfolk County, Massachusetts? If so, I'll do it (and adjust the serial numbers myself, which Nyttend did for me yesterday).

Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 12:40, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I put a note about Brookwood Farm and Old Barn in wp:NRIS info issues last week --- as far as the names go, I need a little more clarity.

1. I will change the article names of Refreshment Pavillion and Old Barn to Refreshment Pavilion, Milton Massachuetts and Old Barn, Canton Massachusetts, leaving a redirect behind.
2. But should I change the name of the Refreshment Pavillion row in National Register of Historic Places listings in Milton, Massachusetts and the Old Barn row in National Register of Historic Places listings in Norfolk County, Massachusetts or simply pipe them? I know that with respect to lighthouses, we carefully keep the NRIS name in the NRHP infobox, even when it's dubious.

Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 23:27, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

All understood, thanks. On the information issues page you wrote Old Mill in one place where you meant Old Barn I looked at WP:TPO and "fixing obvious errors" is not on the list. What's the protocol -- should I just have changed it? Or is this the right way? Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 09:57, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Weizer Building

I just discovered that there are two Weizer Buildings in Cleveland. Would you have time for disambiguation? I've changed the links to Weizer Building (8935 Buckeye Road, Cleveland, Ohio) and to Weizer Building (11801 Buckeye Road, Cleveland, Ohio). Would disambiguation by date be a better idea? I don't know how other date-disambiguated names have been formatted; the only place listed by date that I know is in Longmont, Colorado: St. Stephen's Episcopal Church, 1881, and that's disambiguated by the NRIS. Nyttend (talk) 15:35, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Sure, and done! I usually prefer going by address, so you have the name of the place, plus one disambiguating parenthetical phrase which is entirely about the location. doncram (talk) 15:44, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

New articles for the WikiProject Historic sites

Hi.

I created Séraphin-Médéric Mieusement‎ and Eugène Lefèvre-Pontalis. Those two guys took photos of French monuments historiques in the late 19th century (see Commons) and had an article on French WP. The only thing is I'm sure my English sucks, so can you please check that I wrote correctly? Thank you. --Coyau (talk) 18:18, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Untagging of mistakenly-tagged NRHP articles

I've now removed {{coord missing}} from a total of 223 NRHP-tagged articles which had been marked as "Address Restricted" in the database, and I've also blocked the bot from adding tags to any page which contains {{infobox nrhp}}. I will re-scan again in a couple of days to check whether I've got them all. -- The Anome (talk) 18:58, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I've now done another scan, this time with a third search strategy based on dump information, which found (and fixed) only another 16 more. That's probably the last of them, or nearly so. I've also added a rule to the bot that blocks the addition of new tags to any article with a category containing the words "national register of historic places", even if it does not contain an NRHP infobox. -- The Anome (talk) 23:42, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Historical marker copyright?

Hi Doncram, I think you are way ahead of me on this, but my understanding is that historical markers are copyrighted material, and that photographs of same are derivative works. I see that User:Staib has a gallery with photos of a number of markers in it. Since I'm not familiar with how to flag these things I thought I would bring it to an expert's attention. Is there some better way to follow up on this sort of thing? pmcyclist (talk) 19:45, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Marion County, Indiana

Indianapolis has a place named just "Colonial". There is a DAB page for the word, to which it could be added. Or, there are LOTS of other NRHPs with colonial in the name, including Colonial Hotel, Colonial Theater, etc. Not sure how to handle this one. It's all yours. :) I will pipelink to Colonial (Indianapolis, Indiana). Lvklock (talk) 14:27, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, i don't understand those one-word Indianapolis items, Ambassador, Alexandra, Baker, Burton, Cathcart, Chadwick, Colonial, Dartmouth, Devonshire, Emelie, Glencoe, Grover, Harriet, Lodge, Martens, Massachusetts, McKay, Oldfields, Oldfields (2nd), Oxford, Pennsylvania, Plaza, Rink, Savoy, Shelton, Spink, Sylvania, and others (please check/add to this list).

Perhaps they are apartment buildings? It seems the local NRHP officer left off "Apartment Building" or "Historic District" or something else of all them. Perhaps report all as effective errors, and/or ask for other information about all of them, in one report to the National Register? doncram (talk) 16:38, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, the ones alphabetically before Colonial, I just pipelinked/Dabbed, as normal. Some were already done. My issue with Colonial is how to DAB. So, my take is that we should copy this exchange onto the talk page and move on, while you may or may not want to do some sort of DAB for Colonial. But, if we're gonna meet the enildaed terces, we can't get bogged down with this. Lvklock (talk) 16:47, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Then let's list them all at the Marion county Talk page, and put a note in the Indiana state list Talk page and at NRIS info issues. I did create disambiguation for some of them, Glencoe included, but found that uncomfortable, asserting the notability of a redlink that looks like it is misnamed. Looking at them now as a group these all seem to be sort of wrong to foist upon all the disambiguation pages. Either a different name for each one should be established for wikipedia to use (adding "Apartment Building" perhaps) or a better explanation is needed for each disambiguation entry, or some other solution, to be found at some later time after some more can be known about these. So just use (City, State) disambiguation in the names, and don't bother adding to disambiguation pages, just list them in a batch to be addressed. doncram (talk) 17:00, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I checked Colonial and Pennsylvania, and both are listed as multiple dwelling, so the apartment buildings idea sounds reasonable. This looks like Pennsylvania, and this is incontrovertibly Colonial. Didn't look at the others, but I expect that they could be the same. Nyttend (talk) 17:51, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

OK. Per the talk at the Marion Co. List page, I'll change the list items to "The". Where there's already an article established without the "the", what do I do? Lvklock (talk) 01:19, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I dunno. Discuss at Talk:List of RHPs in Marion. doncram (talk) 01:46, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Please DAB Hillcrest Country Club. Existing article is for club in another state. List has pipelink to Hillcrest Country Club (Indianapolis, Indiana). Lvklock (talk) 03:49, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

 Done

And also Majestic Building needs DAB. Existing article is for a building in Detroit. List has pipelink to Majestic Building (Indianapolis, Indiana). Lvklock (talk) 03:53, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

 Done

And, Manchester Apartments. Existing article is for an NRHP in Detroit. List has pipelink to Manchester Apartments (Indianapolis, Indiana). Lvklock (talk) 03:56, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

 Done

And, I'm not sure what to do about Oldfields. There are two listings at the same address. I think it likely that the second is actually more like a boundary increase...it seems to be for a secondary building. So, either they should be merged into one line on the table, or they need DAB. Lvklock (talk) 04:01, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

So, I'm moving on from Marion County and Indiana, having referred these last four sticky things to you. :) Lvklock (talk) 04:01, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Table-izer Barnstar

Thanks! It was fun. What are you doing to check the people on your list, anything I can help with? You commented that it takes a long time. Lvklock (talk) 18:26, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Hey, thank you for this, but I'm not sure I deserve it. I havent been helping your push in the last month really, though I've certainly tableized enough counties in the past. My quest right now is going through museum cats. I'm up to Georgia... dm (talk) 18:59, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Hmm...feeling a little at loose ends. Well, I guess it won't hurt to take a mini break until I'm inspired. Maybe I'll get back to the Syr list article. Lvklock (talk) 23:17, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Loose end may be leading me to places I should stay out of. Lvklock (talk) 00:35, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

NE stuff gives me a headache. Lvklock (talk) 01:43, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Neutra Office Building

Hallo, Doncram, herzlichen Glückwunsch zum ersten deutschen Artikel! Obwohl das Gebäude im National Register of Historic Places steht, was in der deutschsprachigen Wikipedia Relevanz belegt, wurde der Artikel mit einem Löschantrag versehen. Den Antrag finde ich völlig unverständlich; er ist ein Zeichen dafür, wie wirr es in der deutschprachigen Wikipedia zugehen kann. Ich habe mir erlaubt, den Artikel zu ergänzen. Damit dürfte der Löschantrag in Kürze erledigt sein. Freundliche Grüße --Textkorrektur (talk) 08:56, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Eben wurde der Löschantrag entfernt, alles in Ordnung also. --Textkorrektur (talk) 08:57, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Above translated by http://translate.google.com/:

Hello, Doncram, Congratulations on your first German product! Though the building in the National Register of Historic Places is what shows in the German Wikipedia relevance, the article was accompanied by a deletion request. I find the application completely incomprehensible, it is a sign of how chaotic it can happen in the German-speaking Wikipedia. I took the liberty to supplement the article. Thus, the deletion request should be completed shortly. Kind Regards - Text Correction : Just delete the application was removed, all right then. - Text Correction

Thanks, Textkorrektur! I am honored both to have this article translated into the DE wikipedia (and now also a couple other articles perhaps), and to have suffered and survived a deletion proposal! The linked deletion discussion was concluded as LAE. Too bad i missed the discussion, i was not able to address it at the time. (Thanks also, Lvklock, for helping with translation.) doncram (talk) 17:37, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

RFA

You haven't listed Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/doncram for consideration and I was wondering what the status of the request is. MBisanz ^talk 05:17, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

wadester16 likes this. wadester16 14:19, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Windmills

For some reason the embedding of the NRHP template into Infobox windmill is broken. Mjroots (talk) 10:22, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

No one seems to care: Wikipedia talk:NRHP#Template:Infobox_and_NRHP_embedding. --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 16:47, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Back to HDs nationwide

What do you think of filing a bot request to help with Category:Historic districts in the United States? I'm thinking of asking for a bot to add the category itself to all articles with "hd" or "nhld" in the "type" line of the infobox, as long as those articles weren't already in a state-level category. Once this was complete, we'd be able to remove the category from the table without running the risk of missing any, and an edit to add the state-level category to each site could easily include removing the national category. It should be easy: far easier than trying to keep track of which states or letters had been sorted into state-level categories. Nyttend (talk) 19:00, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

If I can jump in, that sounds like a great idea to me. When this drive began, I helped out a little, but after realizing that the category list would not be updated automatically, I pretty much stopped editing. If, however, the category would update itself automatically (like Category:NRHP infobox needing cleanup), I would more than likely be more active in this drive.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 19:08, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like a great idea to me!--Pubdog (talk) 21:03, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

NRHP Barnstar

		The NRHP Table-izer Barnstar
		I award you this Barnstar for your contributions in table-izing multiple states' NRHP list-tables. You guys did a great job! I noticed that you did not get a Barnstar for your efforts (too modest to give it to yourself, I guess), so I hereby award you one. Bill Whittaker (talk) 20:29, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Hear, hear. Why didn't I do that? Sent you another e-mail. Lvklock (talk) 15:55, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Maps

Have we ever tried making maps of HDs based on maps in nomination forms? I've created File:Bridgewater Historic District map (Pennsylvania).png, which I think could be useful. Nyttend (talk) 23:56, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

World Heritage Sites

Hi, I noticed your comment here Talk:List of World Heritage Sites in Europe#On Kazakhstan, Israel, Other Countries that "Aren't in Europe" and was wondering what you have in mind about replacing the list? I want to spruce up the UK list and want to make sure we don't operate at cross-purposes. Nev1 (talk) 17:49, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Ha Ha at Royal Crescent, Bath

Hi, Months ago you asked about a picture of the Ha Ha at Royal Crescent in Bath - I couldn't help then, but, in the course of doing something else, came across a pic at Geograph which is CC licenced and might help.— Rod ^talk 20:02, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

World Heritage Sites

I know this thread is a bit old, but how far did you get overhauling the WHS pages? Prompted by this, I began to revamp the UK list. Hopefully, such a detailed list (although less than half complete) shows that individual states can sustain their own articles on the subject, especially since the main Europe list does not mention tentative sites. Any comments on the list so far would be welcome as in the long run I do intend to take it to WP:FLC. Also, you may be interested in this comment. Nev1 (talk) 14:51, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Another disambiguation page, please

Delaware Avenue Historic District: there's a Delaware Avenue Historic District (Buffalo, New York) and a Delaware Avenue Historic District (Wilmington, Delaware). Nyttend (talk) 15:58, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

 Done doncram (talk) 16:38, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Yet another request — Mill Creek Historic District, for Mill Creek Historic District (Bunker Hill, West Virginia) and Mill Creek Historic District (Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania). I've updated their respective county lists. Nyttend (talk) 13:02, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Link question

Thanks for the help, Doncram. The link, though, doesn't really offer the information cited. Would this link be better maybe? I'm just not sure how to cite it. wadester16 18:43, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

The nris reference given is what has been used for info from the NRIS download that User:Elkman serves up. It is the reference suggested in Elkman output. You are correct that the National Register's own interface does not give access to all the info in their own database, in particular not to certain fields included in Elkman's interface. It would perhaps be better if we specifically referenced the Elkman download in a different way than has been practice. I'll open a discussion thread about the referencing question at wt:NRHP, please see there and comment further there. doncram (talk) 18:56, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. wadester16 19:03, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Normal address becoming restricted

Have you ever heard of a property that was once public becoming restricted? The Maudru House in Stark County, Ohio (80003234) is listed as restricted address, but its weekly list from 1982 (page 18) gives a location. Nyttend (talk) 21:52, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

No, never heard of that. In fact, never heard of a place's location being changed either to or from restricted, after its original listing. Perhaps a data entry error, originally? Worth inquiring about specifically to the National Register reference people. doncram (talk) 01:45, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment — where should I send the email? Same address as the one for requesting hard copy nomination forms? Nyttend (talk) 16:25, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that same email address would work. I've been meaning to submit more batches of NRIS info issues, but would have questions about various of the Ohio ones so am not immediately ready to submit an Ohio batch. Would prefer to do some other states first. You should certainly go ahead with your question on this individual one, and likely get a quicker response too. doncram (talk) 17:02, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

I've sent an email about two restricted addresses: Maudru and the Second and Market Streets Historic District in Louisville, KY — you'd never guess where that was located, would you? If there's anything I can do to help with submissions, I'll be happy to do what I can, especially with the Ohio ones: I've been thinking of asking you if you were going to do another report, but I never got around to it. Nyttend (talk) 01:47, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Email came in today: the official says that Maudru has always been restricted (per the owner's request), so they gave the general description to give a rough approximation of its location. He's going to check with the Kentucky historic preservation people about Second and Market. Nyttend (talk) 01:38, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

nrhp infobox needing cleanup

I made a sweep thru the category for just nhl/nhlds. All that's left of them are a few needing nhlsum ref and some talk pages i wasn't sure what to do with. Lvklock (talk) 02:38, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

OK, I ran through again for designated =, with a space. I only made thirty something more edits. I don't know why the rest don't pop up for me with AWB. Lvklock (talk) 01:29, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the direction...I'll try it again that way later. Lvklock (talk) 17:35, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Running through without that box checked, for designated=. has been through 250 without stopping. I dunno what I'm doing wrong. Lvklock (talk) 23:40, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Do you type in "designated=" or designated= ? Lvklock (talk) 23:48, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

This doesn't make sense though, because when I ran through with designated= the other night, I ignored some that it DID stop on, so they should still be there, but instead it's not stopping on ANYTHING. The only thing I did different was uncheck that "only genfixes" box on the skip tab. I'm very frustrated. Lvklock (talk) 23:55, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

How do I use a list that I saved yesterday in AWB? Nothing about this seems obvious to me. Lvklock (talk) 01:53, 27 August 2009 (UTC) OK, I just needed to be more patient, I guess. I figured it out.

Went through another hundered or so yesterday. Knocked another 70ish out of the category. Lvklock (talk) 19:00, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Yup, it's just ducky how quickly we're getting through them. Lvklock (talk) 20:51, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm down to 55 on my list for this last run-through. I'm not sure how many that leaves in the category. I'll probably finish this part tomorrow. Lvklock (talk) 02:43, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

And I finished it yesterday. Back to WHS tomorrow, probably. Lvklock (talk) 20:30, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

talk page boxes

FYI, your table of contents doesn't show until the end of the first box on the right, so there's a big blank space at the top of your page on the left. I'm using IE. Lvklock (talk) 19:45, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Better. Now has table of contents on left and much smaller blank space in middle, with other boxes at right. How's the utlity of having your to do list so much lower, though? Lvklock (talk) 16:44, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Also, thx for your help on the archiving stuff. Lvklock (talk) 19:46, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

WHS lists

Okay, what needs to be done for these? Can we make a list? Off the top of my head, I come up with these:

• Search for and bluelink to articles that already have the WHS infobox
• Add coordinates
• Convert country abbreviations to full names
• Remove UNESCO area column (ie EUR)
• Convert type from letter to word - C=Cultural N=Natural M=Mixed
• Number
• Descriptions

What else? Lvklock (talk) 03:21, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm....hadn't thought about it. My first reaction was one table, but when that's all done, and pics get added eventually, that would be way too big. I think, though, that we should develop it through getting the list of stuff above done before splitting things. Are there countries with just a couple? If there are, then we have to figure some way of grouping them, I guess. I dunno. That gets into all the sticky stuff that seems too much like work to me. I'll think on it some more. Lvklock (talk) 04:04, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Agree. I added some items to the list above. Lvklock (talk) 15:06, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Plugging away. 'Nuf for tonight. Lvklock (talk) 02:04, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Roswell and Elizabeth Garst Farmstead Historic District

I'm printing the Narrative of Significance section of the nomination. I'll work on it over the next couple days. Lvklock (talk) 16:35, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Added a (very) little today. Lvklock (talk) 02:29, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I want to change the red link for hybrid corn to the hybrid corn section of the Heterosis article, but I don't know how to do a section specific link. Lvklock (talk) 14:31, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for finding that. I just redirected Hybrid corn to Heterosis#Hybrid corn which may suffice. You could also link directly to that section using [[Heterosis#Hybrid corn|hybrid corn]]. Thanks! doncram (talk) 14:38, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

So, this is all set for DYK, as far as you know? Lvklock (talk) 16:08, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I like what Nyttend added. Lvklock (talk) 16:45, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

WP:CHICAGO voting for Top-importance Chicago articles

Since you had helped us determine the candidates, I am guessing you might have forgotten about the voting portion since you haven't stopped by yet. Feel free to come vote at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Chicago/Assessment#Current_Top-importance_Candidates for our next Category:Top-importance Chicago articles. Voting continues until September 10 and nominations/discussions are ongoing for future ballot candidates at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Chicago/Assessment.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 02:50, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Image from nomination form

I just realised the answer to the where-to-find Kentucky forms question above — a large number of them are at Focus. This I realised by finding File:Peterson-dumesnil house.jpg, which is taken from Focus. Are there any Commons admins familiar with the status of nomination form images, so that I wouldn't have to explain their copyrighted status? If so, please tell me; if not, please remind me of that link to the helpful page that you wrote on the status of most of these NPS images. Nyttend (talk) 01:39, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

By the way, I first came across the not-always-PD issue with File:Menoken Indian Village Site.jpg from an NHL profile, which you noted as being credited to a specific individual. Some time ago, I did some research and found that the photographer for this specific image is the NHL program coördinator for several states (including where this one is located), so I ended up reuploading it as PD because he clearly took it while in the course of his NPS job. Nyttend (talk) 01:42, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. Still currently on the wt:NRHP page is Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places#NRHP photos - copyrights where this is mention of recent copyright discussion on the topic at commons. My note that you refer to is probably this: Wikipedia:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places#some but not all National Park Service photos are public domain. We ought to put something over in commons. I don't know my way around over there, but i could put at note on my own userpage there. doncram (talk) 04:14, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Please do; I asked Royalbroil to speedy them (since he's a Commons admin), but he says it's not a clear enough case that it's speedyable. I've nominated the image (along with two others) for deletion; you can find them all here. Nyttend (talk) 01:18, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I added a note the other day at a Commons licensing page, specifically at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Licensing#Works_by_the_US_Government, and just updated it further. Since it was not immediately deleted, I guess it is okay. Also I placed the same note my user page there, with pointer to the central licensing page, as backup. doncram (talk) 01:31, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Monroe cottage

I checked the new and old LA Times databases using both "monroe cottage" and "6310 crescent" and came up empty. I also dried lapl's California index collection and got nothing. Maybe it's been known by another name? Cbl62 (talk) 20:51, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Found an article in the Arcadia Tribune from 1978 that refers to an old school being established in Monrovia in a "Monroe cottage" in the 19th Century. Here's the quote: "It was deemed necessary to create a school district here. Unfortunately there were only 12 children of school age and it took 15 for the establishmnent of a district. This was overcome by "borrowing" three children from the Baldwin Ranch. A Miss Dickie of Pasadena was hired as a teacher and the first school was opened in the Monroe cottage." "Frankly Speaking," Arcadia Tribune, March 23, 1978. Cbl62 (talk) 20:58, 12 September 2009 (UTC)