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Scoring rulesEdit

Hey Cbl, happy new year! What scoring rules does 1881 Michigan Wolverines football team use? It certainly isn't goals score one as in other games of the period. - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 17:06, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Not sure. Would have to research it. My sense from having researched games from this era is that scoring rules were not always agreed upon, and it was not uncommon for one team to report/record the score differently than another team -- even as it applied to the same game. Cbl62 (talk) 17:28, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
I guess my specific question is do you have sources stating those scores? Because it seems like someone retroactively used today's scoring system, with some tweaks. Another almost rhetorical question. How do you earn a Varsity letter on a team that plays no Varsity games? - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 17:38, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
Scores on Michigan articles are generally taken from official university records. The Bentley Historical Library maintains the U-M's archives, and it has published a page on each Michigan football team, including games scores, starting lineups, and full roster information. The "v" in full roster data indicates a player who won a varsity letter. The 1881 and 1882 team pages/rosters are found here/here and here/here. The 1882 football roster is also found at the yearbook here. The Argonaut and Chronicle (found in External links) are also good sources for the early Michigan teams. Cbl62 (talk) 18:27, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
OK, easiest first. Harvard and Michigan agree the score was 4-0. But there isn't any corroboration from the news accounts for the score. They are hard to use because they aren't online (can you access them?). The Boston Journal text doesn't mention any scoring. (I now see the title of the article is said to mention one TD to zero.) Where does the non-quoted text "Harvard scored the only points of the game in the first half on a play that was disputed by Michigan's players." come from? The Fitchburg Sentinel only says one TD for Harvard, none for Michigan. Well, my suspicion is that Harvard kicked four goals. It's possible no goals were scored and Harvard's one TD counted for 4 in just the Michigan game (the rest of Harvard's scores were all 0, 1 or 2 besides Ottawa). But I don't think that's likely. - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 05:15, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
OK, finally read the Inlander account. It seems I was wrong. One touchdown scored four points. The account also mentions downs. Still, the other Harvard games besides Ottawa could not have used this scoring. I will try to press on with Princeton and Yale scores. - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 05:40, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
The plot thickens. Sorry to burn up your user page, but this is fascinating, I hope you agree, or soon tell me to buzz off. The writer of the Inlander article in 1901, seems to be Fred Townsend. However, a story quoted in the Michigan Alumnus in 1899-1900 said that Townsend was forced quit high school in the spring of 1881 due to eye problems. He enrolled in Michigan Law in the fall but then again left school the next year due to the same eyesight problems Source. Now, these two accounts could both be 100% true, and it is certainly stranger than fiction. Traveling by train to the east coast to play football in between two episodes of debilitating eye problems? I would have to say the eyesight issue is more probable to be false. Intriguing. - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 05:55, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
Princeton is helpful to look at because the fine Tigers have an excellent record of all scoring plays. Their summary is Princeton: 1 goal, 2 TDs, 1 safety. Michigan: 3 safeties. The basics from the New Jersy Daily State Gazette agrees on the scoring plays. Princeton: 1 goal, 2 TDs. Michigan O goals, 0 TDs. I don't think safeties were scoring plays then, they just allowed the team backed up to punt the ball away. The link to the Inlander, 1901 at Michigan's page is the key to Michigan's reported 13-4 score. It says Princeton was forced to take two safeties and "once took advantage of a touch-in-goal" whatever that was. If you use the scoring table from 1883-1897, Princeton can get to 13 points: 5 points for the goal, 4 points for each TD. Michigan can get two points from each safety for four. If the 1883 scoring was not used until that time, and all the scores I've seen from Harvard and Princeton before that date back that up, then the Bentley library applied an incorrect scoring system to the game. I would humbly suggest a correction to the Michigan article to list the Princeton game as 0-1. I haven't looked at Yale yet, but it's very likely Yale kicked two goals to Michigan's zero. (Not sure where 11 points could come from yet). - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 04:45, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
Looks like you've made good progress digging into the details. Once you reach a conclusion as to which scores are correct, I have no objection to your modifying accordingly the 1881 Michigan article. Cbl62 (talk) 16:53, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

Early season errorsEdit

I've looked at all the Harvard seasons up to 1881 and all Princeton seasons up through 1892. I was surprised to see many basic errors like records not matching between the article text, standings charts, infobox or schedule table. And scoring and location errors in the tables. It was almost every other article for Harvard. I realize there are contradictory sources and it's sometimes hard to figure out which is right. But some were pretty easy to see, like 1881 Harvard. Its clear that the error came from the College Football Data Warehouse and wasn't corrected when that source was removed. This not a criticism, just an ask. When you and @Jweiss11: go through articles, can you check the sources match the results? At least the overall record, but scoring and locations would be great too. You guys have done an enormous amount of work, kudos. But because you cover so many articles, it would be great to dial it up one more notch. Please take this constructively and remember, no good deed goes unpunished. - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 05:05, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

Constructive criticism welcome. Even more welcome is your effort to improve these articles. Cbl62 (talk) 16:54, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

Sometimes ...Edit

just got to WP:DENY. Cheers.—Bagumba (talk) 20:08, 13 January 2018 (UTC)


You tend to crop pictures from the Michigan team photos. What do you think about the pictures on John Heisman's article? E. g. should one crop him from the Oberlin team photo, or leave it as is? Any other criticisms you have I'm sure will be helpful. Cake (talk) 04:40, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

@MisterCake: Haven't been at my own talk page in a while and just saw this. Sorry for not responding sooner. Cropping someone out of a team photo really depends on a number of factors, including (i) the quality/resolution of the team photo, (ii) how the individual subject looks in the group shot, and (iii) whether the image is public domain or subject to copyright that might limit alterations. Michigan's 19th century and early 20th century football teams have very high res team photos that are public domain can result in very effective cropping to obtain individual portraits. BTW, I've been working on WWII service teams of late ... an interesting subject and there are a number of southern teams in that group that could use development. See Template:World War II service football teams navbox. Cbl62 (talk) 22:14, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
Michigan did have a nice photographer. I suppose the quality on the Oberlin team photo on Heisman's article is just low enough to justify keeping the whole team in the shot, plus I suppose it shows how in those days Heisman was another face in the crowd. WW2 is well past the time I know anything about what is going on in southern football, but you have done a fine job on gathering all the teams. The "Cloudbusters" defeating Harvard was probably neat. If WW1 has anything similar, I could probably help there. Bradley Walker's article was graced with recent expansion. Heisman explains Walker's time between playing football at Nashville and Virginia, presumably 1898 or 9, with "The next year Walker went to Michigan, but, I understood, he found a negro playing there on the team, as had Williams at Harvard" and so he went to UVA instead. Do you know this story? Cake (talk) 14:49, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
Michigan's first African American football player was George Jewett, who played for the Wolverines from 1890 to 1892. That would have been a bit before Walker's time. After Jewett, no African American player saw game action at Michigan until Willis Ward in the 1930s. I have read about an African American player being part of the team in the 1910s, but he did not see game action -- and that would have been well after Walker's time. Based on what I've read about the racial integration of the Michigan football program, there were no African Americans on the team in the 1898-1900 period described by Heisman. Cbl62 (talk) 16:52, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
I didn't think so. Quite the thing for Heisman to say going on apparently fuzzy memory. Walker did referee a handful of Michigan-Vanderbilt games, So I wonder if he did have some connection to Michigan. Cake (talk) 17:02, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Second Air Force footballEdit

Is 1942 Second Air Force Bombers football team and 1944 Second Air Force Superbombers football team the same team? Did the fight name change? Jweiss11 (talk) 22:02, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

  • Yes. The Second Air Force move its command center from Washington to Colorado in 1943. The coach remained the same, but the nickname appears to have been "promoted" from "Bombers" to "Superbombers". If you are thinking of creating a category, maybe just "Second Air Force football teams". Cbl62 (talk) 22:06, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

1943 Georgia Pre-Flight head coachEdit

Cbl, looks like Rex Enright, not Mike Brumbelow, was the head coach for the 1943 Georgia Pre-Flight Skycrackers football team. See [1] and [2]. Perhaps Brumbelow had already moved on elsewhere? Here are Enright and Brumbelow together with Matty Bell in a June 1943 news article: [3]. Jweiss11 (talk) 22:28, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Good catch. It appears that people were moved around quite regularly during the war. Thanks. Cbl62 (talk) 23:06, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

SEC community service teamEdit

SEC community service team, seem notable? All I can find in google is school-affiliated sources. Lizard (talk) 01:30, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

I can take a look to see what kind of coverage I can find, but it looks questionable. Give me til early next week, as we've got a house guest arriving tomorrow. Cbl62 (talk) 01:36, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
Looks like a delete to me. It's unlikely there's any third-party coverage of these awards as a principle subject. Probably only mentioned in passing in coverage about the recipients. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:06, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
It seems to be the sort of thing about which athletic departments love to issue press releases (not independent). Various local/regional sources then pick it up in part to report that the local/regional athlete received the recognition for their good deeds. What I am not finding is what Jweiss mentions -- any in depth coverage in reliable, independent source focusing on the awards themselves or as a whole. For example, a search of for (SEC "community service team") turns up no results. I note that the article creator also added a subsection to List of volunteer awards about these same awards. I've gone ahead and removed a bunch of tangential "See also" references added by the creator. Cbl62 (talk) 15:09, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Western Reserve Red CatsEdit

Cbl, watch out for the changes in Western Reserve's fight name over time. They were known as the Pioneers only from 1921 to 1927 and then the Red Cats from 1928 until the merger with Case. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:02, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Rachel Hirschfeld editsEdit

Below I am copying issues relating to the edits you have made and I am answering just under the issue you posed.

1. content that is either unsourced or promotional is impermissible.

All that I wrote is from my knowledge, however, I will site sources from my articles and interviews, if you wish.

2. Exacerbating these concerns, your user name mirrors the name of the subject's rescue dog (Soubpone Hirschfeld) and raises questions with respect to whether you are or have a close connection with the article's subject.

I own my name and creations and Soupbone

3. Indeed, your user page discloses that you "have been paid by Soupbone Charities" for your edits.

I, Rachel Hirschfeld, have not been paid by Soupbone Charities although I do remember stating that. Because I thought Wikipedia needed to hear that. But it definitely is not the case. I have not been paid although I could be, because it own them both.

4. From its web site (here), it appears that "Soubpone Charities" is created/operated by Rachel Hirschfeld.

This is correct.

May I add the updated edits of my article here for your approval - because I do not want to risk being blocked?

Tom Adams FieldEdit

Hey I've noticed that you have contributed to Wayne State Warriors pages in the past and perhaps you could enlighten me as to why Tom Adams Field was merged to the Wayne State University page instead of the program article, or why was it merged at all. Thanks--UCO2009bluejay (talk) 21:53, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

@UCO2009bluejay: According to the edit history, the merge was done on October 4, 2016, by‎ User:Klbrain. The edit history stated: "Bold merge to Wayne State University from May 2013; no case made, but no objections, but seems reasonable given the abscence of independent notability of the incoming page." Cbl62 (talk) 23:55, 24 March 2018 (UTC)


I earnestly appreciate your note but I'm quite willing to breach flimsy definition of PAs, if that could guarantee a more productive expenditure of our editorial resources.Best,~ Winged BladesGodric 08:57, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Joe Greene birthplaceEdit

I can't seem to find a definitive source for the birthplace of Joe Greene, which is likely either Temple or Elgin, TX. For reasons I don't remember, I went with Temple, but I've seen editors flip-flop between the two for over a year now. Lizard (talk) 13:13, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Interesting. The cites are 70 miles apart and in different counties.,, Encyclopaedia Britannica, and Sports Illustrated list Temple as the birthplace. All four are respected, arguably even authoritative, sources. Yet, I see several sources saying he was born in Elgin and moved to Temple as a young child. E.g., this, this, this, this, this. However, those sources aren't as authoritative as the four listed above. Ordinarily, I'd be inclined to go with the more authoritative sources, but the sheer number of sources citing Elgin makes this a tough one. A further complicating factor is a Texas birth index at Ancestry showing the birth of a "Charles Green" (one letter off) in Bastrop County on 9/25/46 (one day off) to a mother named Cleo -- Greene's mother was named Cleo, and Elgin is in Bastop County. In the end, I don't find anything definitive. At minimum, I think the article should have a note about the difference in sourcing regarding place of birth. . . . One other question: If his given name is "Charles Edward Greene", how did he come to be known as "Joe"? Cbl62 (talk) 13:55, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
Because "Mean Charles Greene" doesn't sound as cool. (I actually have no idea). Lizard (talk) 15:40, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

New essayEdit

I just put together an essay at Wikipedia:Profanity, civility, and discussions. You're a better editor of content than I am, I would appreciate your input and any changes you see fit.--Paul McDonald (talk) 17:08, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

  • @Paulmcdonald: It looks good to me. The trend among some users on the ANI board to tolerate gross profanity is troubling. I'll examine more carefully when time permits. Thanks for preparing it. Cbl62 (talk) 17:37, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

"Vital" articlesEdit

Something that may interest you: I noticed the 5th level of "vital articles" was just created and I've been told it's currently a free-for-all. For American football, there are 30 players and 15 coaches/executives/owners deemed level 5 "vital" to Wikipedia's coverage. I swapped a few articles yesterday and I think it looks about right. What say you? The coaches are the hardest part; there's a few glaring omissions like Stagg, Heisman, Pop Warner, and Lambeau but it'd be difficult to remove any of the ones that are there. Lizard (talk) 17:20, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

  • A hard list to settle on, but no glaring omissions at first glance. Cbl62 (talk) 17:35, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

DYK for Ventura PierEdit

 On 6 May 2018, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Ventura Pier, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the Ventura Pier was the longest wooden pier in California until a storm sheared off approximately 420 feet (130 m) in 1995? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Ventura Pier. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Ventura Pier), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Gatoclass (talk) 12:01, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

DYK for Father Serra statues (Ventura, California)Edit

 On 9 May 2018, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Father Serra statues (Ventura, California), which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the Father Serra statues in Ventura, California, have been vandalized and called "a direct slap in the face" of Native American cultures? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Father Serra statues (Ventura, California). You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Father Serra statues (Ventura, California)), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Gatoclass (talk) 00:02, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

11 years of editingEdit

  Hey, Cbl62. I'd like to wish you a wonderful First Edit Day on behalf of the Wikipedia Birthday Committee!
Have a great day!
Chris Troutman (talk) 00:47, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

1969 AP All-Pro teamEdit

Can you find a newspaper article for the 1969 AP All-Pro Team? Last year PFR had Joe Greene listed on the AP first team and this article also asserts he was a first-team All-Pro. But now PFR only lists Sporting News second-team all-conference for 1969. Lizard (talk) 03:34, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

@Lizard the Wizard: Here you go. Cbl62 (talk) 03:51, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
Thanks. My subscription with Wikipedia expired (with no warning in advance) and I noticed there's a new process to go through to get it, which looks like a pain. Lizard (talk) 03:57, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
No problem. If you need anything else, feel free to ping me. Cbl62 (talk) 04:02, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

West Virginia TechEdit

Hey I came across this redirect West Virginia Tech Mountaineers that I believe was a mistake. It redirects to WVU; West Virginia Tech is the Golden Bears. I don't think hoax under WP:Speedy directly applies following the letter of the rule. What would you suggest I do about it. Thanks.--UCO2009bluejay (talk) 15:33, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

@UCO2009bluejay: I agree with your analysis. There is already a redirect for the correct nomenclature (West Virginia Tech Golden Bears) so West Virginia Tech Mountaineers should be nominated for deletion IMO. Cbl62 (talk) 19:00, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

DYK for Serra CrossEdit

 On 18 July 2018, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Serra Cross, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the Serra Cross (pictured) in Ventura, California, was sold in response to a threatened lawsuit challenging the use of public funds to maintain a religious symbol on public land? You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Serra Cross), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:01, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Rankings in schedule tablesEdit

Cbl, there's no need to put an "NR" in the schedule tables for weeks when the team was not ranked, e.g. at 1946 Tulsa Golden Hurricane football team. You can just leave the field blank. That the standard procedure. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 00:20, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

OK. Cbl62 (talk) 02:07, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

A Barnstar for your rivalries!Edit

  The Barnstar of Recovery
Thanks and congrats for some enormous reference hunting on multiple rivalry AfDs Nosebagbear (talk) 12:40, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Precious anniversaryEdit

Five years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:49, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

early Central MichiganEdit

I updated some of your early CMU articles, ex.[4], by swapping the Template:collegefootball-stub template with Category:College football season stubs for more contextual visibility. The result was Category:College football stubs is now mostly about players. I get there was some nesting of that template and the Category:College football stubs cat. If I broke anything in your view, let me know and am happy to correct. UW Dawgs (talk) 18:58, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

UW Dawgs, yes, you are "breaking" things here. User:Jmertel23 has left a message on your talk page to this effect. Stub categories should be rendered via stub templates, e.g. Template:Collegefootball-stub. Stub categories should not be directly applied to articles. Jweiss11 (talk) 21:46, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

7th Annual Los Angeles WiknicEdit

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RSVP (and volunteer) here.
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Nomination of Diocemy Saint Juste for deletionEdit


A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Diocemy Saint Juste is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Diocemy Saint Juste until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Arbor to SJ (talk) 17:44, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

Bob Mann (American football)Edit

Hey Cbl62, about 8 years ago you significantly expanded Bob Mann (American football). Over the last few months I have done some clean-up on the article (mostly reference archiving, c/e, etc). I was wondering if you would like to collaborate and take this to WP:GA? It probably doesn't require a lot more to get it close. Let me know if you are interested. Thanks, « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 15:03, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

@Gonzo fan2007: Thanks for the note. Sure, sounds like a worthwhile project. Cbl62 (talk) 15:16, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
Here are a few additional sources that can be worked into the article: [5], [6], [7]-[8], [9]. Cbl62 (talk) 15:30, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
Awesome. I noticed a good number of sources in the current article are to print newspapers. Do you have access to these, or can you make clips from (similar to the links above)? Just hard for me to verify/expand without access to the links. No biggie if you don't. Thanks! « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 15:39, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

Hey Cbl62, it appears you have access to (I am still awaiting access). One of my current projects in Ray Evrard, the Packers' second president. I haven't found much on him, and was wondering if you would be able to check and see if there is a good article or two on him (especially an obituary, if there is one). Don't worry about it if you don't have the time. It's no biggie. Thanks, « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 03:09, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

@Gonzo fan2007: Here's the obit from the Green Bay newspaper (two parts): [10], [11]. See also here. Cbl62 (talk) 03:15, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
Thank you!! A lot of good info! I can't believe they didn't add his birth date though! « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 03:29, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Schedule tablesEdit

Cbl62, couple things about the schedule table—irrespective of our favorite parameter naming issue! The state code should be displayed for the city even in cases where the article for that city does not contain the name of the state in its title, e.g. "Denver, CO", not "Denver". UTEP didn't become UTEP until 1967. It was "Texas Western" from 1949 to 1966. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:07, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

@Jweiss11: Thanks for the clarification about UTEP; the multiple name changes that many of these schools have gone through makes things difficult. As for your first point, it is my understanding that Wikipedia in recent years made a policy determination that 30 or so major US cities (New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, Philadelphia, San Diego, San Antonio, Boston, Seattle, Dallas, Atlanta, St. Louis, Las Vegas, Detroit, San Francisco, Miami, New Orleans, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Milwaukee, Denver, Baltimore, Indianapolis, Oklahoma City, Minneapolis, Honolulu, Pittsburgh, Salt Lake City) are so widely known and understood that they do not require a state name or code to further identify or disambiguate them. Thus, our standardized naming regimen for US cities requires use of states only (i) for lower-tier cities (Omaha, Nebraska) or (ii) where disambiguation is otherwise required (e.g., Phoenix, Arizona, San Jose, California). I am not aware of any provision of WP:MOS or Wikipedia policy saying that the first-tier cities must nevertheless be disambiguated with a postal code. Can you point me to the provision of MOS or policy that you believe requires such an appendage to be added to the city name in such cases? Thanks. Cbl62 (talk) 04:03, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
We've discussed this at WP:CFB and the consensus is that state codes should be used in these tables for consistency. It's not about disambiguation. Jweiss11 (talk) 04:15, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
Can you link the discussion that you believe is controlling? Cbl62 (talk) 17:44, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
This was touched upon at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football/Archive 20#Schedule tables: State Abbreviations vs spelled out. Can you also inspect the 2018 season articles and see that this continues to be the prevailing format. Jweiss11 (talk) 18:10, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
There was also this discussion here in which MOS guru Tony observed: "I'd try to avoid repetitions like "New York, New York" . . . even if inconsistent in a list." Neither discussion seems to have focused on the precise issue or ended in a clear consensus. It strike me that the issue really is when disambiguation is needed, and the Wikipedia "gods" have determined that the top-level North American cities do not need state/province names (same protocol in Canada for major cities like Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal, Calgary, Ottawa, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Quebec City), but let me think about this for a couple days and get back to you. Cbl62 (talk) 21:16, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
I don't agree with Tony's opinion about avoiding repetitions at the price of inconsistency in lists, particularly in tabular lists. The prevailing standard for these schedule tables is to include state code. In the absence of a clear, overturning consensus, that should be honored. Jweiss11 (talk) 05:57, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
Personally, I tend to agree with Tony and think consistency lies in favor of not using state codes with the major cities. Using such codes with cities that have been declared to require no such disambiguation is the true inconsistency. This might be worth taking up at MOS Talk at some point in the future, but I have no appetite for such a debate at this time. Accordingly, I have for the time being added an unneeded "CO" disambiguation code to "Denver" in the 1949 Wyoming Cowboys football team. Cbl62 (talk) 06:19, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
There was a related discussion at ANI before (which is also mentioned in the CFB archive that Jweiss11 linked above already). Even though it was more about making automated changes with AWB, it seems there was no clear consensus about how to handle in tables, which means it's up to local/project preference. Personally, I'd say to leave the state for a consistent look across table entries.—Bagumba (talk) 08:17, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
@Bagumba: As I recall, the ANI discussion you reference was limited to the use of AWB to make changes for which there was no clear consensus either way. That said, I'll try to remember to add the unneeded disambiguation codes in schedule tables unless and until further guidance develops at MOS Talk. However, in contexts outside of schedule/roster tables (e.g., prose passages), there's no similar argument about the need for a "consistent look across table entries," and the project's determination that no disambiguation is needed ought to control. Cbl62 (talk) 14:05, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
AWB was an issue because there was no obvious consensus on listing states. If we focus on readers, they could probably care less about disambiguators (if they are even aware of the concept), and just see it a matter of a consistent-looking table. As far as I remember, whenever I see sources with US rosters or schedules that list US cities, they always list them as city–state pairs.—Bagumba (talk) 03:18, 13 October 2018 (UTC)


I imagine you're already aware, but you might want to check out Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser re semi-automating the repetitive string replacement and data cleanup tasks. UW Dawgs (talk) 22:54, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

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Hi! I was just wondering if you still have access to, and if you'd be willing to do me a favor with it? Thanks!! Ejgreen77 (talk) 01:08, 27 December 2018 (UTC) @Ejgreen77: Yes, and sure. Let me know what you need. Cbl62 (talk) 03:09, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

I'd like the main feature article at the center of this page, if possible. Thanks so much!!! Ejgreen77 (talk) 03:39, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
This one? part 1, part 2. Cbl62 (talk) 04:09, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
Yep!! Thanks!! Also, would it be possible to get the whole page here, here, and here? Thanks so much!!! Ejgreen77 (talk) 11:50, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

Colorado State / common nameEdit

I added two sections at Talk:Colorado State Rams football. There isn't enough clarity in my view to make any changes at this time, but am aware you're actively working on related articles in this space. So I posted my notes. UW Dawgs (talk) 01:48, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Help requestedEdit

Hi Cbl62 - I was wondering if I could get some help improving an article. Charley Parks is a basketball player who played a few games in the American Basketball Association, and played college basketball at Idaho State and the City College of San Francisco in the late 60s. The article meets WP:NBASKETBALL as a former ABA player, but the article doesn’t demonstrate notability. It was PRODDED, but I removed it. I know you are good at sourcing, so I wondered if you might be able to help me find some for the article - he comes from that period where most sources aren’t easily found on line. I am also looking for sources, but have some conflicts this weekend and early next week so could use some help if you are game. Thanks for considering it. Rikster2 (talk) 15:52, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

@Rikster2: A quick search only turned up passing mentions in game coverage. When time permits over the next couple days, I'll try to dig deeper. Cbl62 (talk) 22:58, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Invitation to attend a Southern California Regional mini UnconferenceEdit

Who: All Wikipedians & Wikimedians

What: Southern California Regional mini Unconference.

When: Sunday 3 March 2019, 2:00PM PST / 1400 until 4:10PM PST / 1610

Where: Philippe's at Chinatown, Los Angeles

Sponsor: San Diego Wikimedians User Group ( US-SAN )

Your host: RightCowLeftCoast (talk · contribs)

Please add your username to our attendees list so we know how many will be attending, due to the limited size of the cafe.

(Delivered: 00:38, 10 February 2019 (UTC) You can unsubscribe from future invitations to San Diego Wikimedians User Group events by removing your name from the WikiProject San Diego mass mailing list & the Los Angeles mass mailing list.)

Wikipedia Day LA, February 24, 2019Edit

Wikipedia Day LA 2019
Consider the Source

Please join the LA User Group, Wikimedians of Los Angeles, for an afternoon of panels, presentations and conversations on the subject of sources, and cake (locally sourced), in celebration of Wikipedia's 18th birthday.

Sunday, February 24, 1:00 PM-5:00 PM

The Ace Hotel (DTLA)

929 S Broadway, Los Angeles, CA 90015

For more details or to sign up, see Wikipedia Day LA, or RSVP via Eventbrite.

Everyone is welcome! We hope to see you there. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 22:00, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

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CFB schedule: "source = y"Edit

Cbl62, FYI, you don't have to put "source = y" in CFB schedule in the named parameter scheme. The source field will render merely by typing it out in CFB schedule entry. Jweiss11 (talk) 06:39, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

MAC: College or University Division?Edit

Cbl, thanks for chipping in on cleanup up the season links on all those articles. I saw your self-revert at 1958 Bowling Green Falcons football team. I'm guessing you're unsure about what division the MAC fell into. This hasn't been clear to me either. The 1960 Ohio Bobcats football team was named College Division national champion. But the 1969 Toledo Rockets football team got votes in the major AP Poll. Did the entire conference reclassify sometime during the 60s? Jweiss11 (talk) 05:41, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

@Jweiss11: I am not sure, which was indeed the reason for my self-revert. If you find a reliable source clearly spelling out which teams were College Division and which were University Division, please share it. I will do the same if I find one. Cbl62 (talk) 06:26, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Art + Feminism 2019Edit

Art+Feminism 2019 Los Angeles Events!

Dear fellow Wikipedian,

You are invited to join Art+Feminism's annual worldwide Wikipedia edit-a-thon and help close Wikipedia's gender gap at one of these Los Angeles–area museums this March! RSVP/Details here.

  • Sunday, March 3: The Institute of Contemporary Art, Los Angeles (DTLA), Noon–5p. Focus: Women+Comedy.
  • Saturday, March 9: Vincent Price Art Museum at East Los Angeles College (Monterey Park), Noon–4p. Focus: Latinx+Non-Binary Artists.
  • Sunday, March 10: Hammer Museum (Westwood), Noon–5p. Focus: Women+Film+Media
  • Sunday, March 17: LACMA (Miracle Mile), Noon–5p. Focus: Women+Design+Craft
  • Sunday, March 31: California African American Museum (Exposition Park/USC), 1–4p. Focus: Women of CAAM.

These Los Angeles events are co-hosted by online magazine East of Borneo and include step-by-step Wikipedia instruction for beginners. Bring your laptop or tablet computer and any reference materials you'd like to work from or share. People of all gender expressions and identities are encouraged to attend.

I hope to see you there! StaceyEOB (talk) - MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 04:05, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Mass TfD of NCAA standings templatesEdit

Illinois vs MichiganEdit

I changed it to a "rivalry" page because I think it should be considered a "rivalry" instead of a "series". help with a projectEdit

Hi! I was wondering if you'd be willing to do me a favor with a project I've been working on. I've been trying to create an article for Sarah Dawson (softball). The subject involved here was an NCAA D-I softball 1st team All-American at Northeast Louisiana University (now the University of Louisiana at Monroe) in 1997; she later went on to a professional softball career with the Orlando Wahoos/Akron Racers franchise; and was later an NCAA D-I softball head coach for 10 years at Louisiana Tech University. Here's the problem: While I think that her 1st team All-American status should satisfy WP:NCOLLATH #1 as a major national-level award, ultimately it probably all comes down to WP:GNG, and, quite frankly, I'm not finding much there. Part of the issue is time. Her playing career ended in the late 90's/early 2000s, and, at this point, even her coaching career has been over for 5+ years. Also compounding the issue is the presence of another currently active softball player with the same name at a different D-I school, making Google searching difficult. So, I was wondering if you'd be willing to run her name through and see what kind of historical coverage you could find. I'm thinking that The Monroe News-Star, the Ruston Daily Leader, and possibly the Orlando Sentinel, some Cleveland/Akron papers and maybe some San Diego-area papers (she appears to have originally been from the San Diego area) would be the primary newspapers of interest here. If you could help out, I'd greatly appreciate it. Thank you!! Ejgreen77 (talk) 19:39, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

@Ejgreen77: I'll see what I can find. My time is pretty limited today and tomorrow, but I can take a quick look now and dig deeper in a couple days. Cbl62 (talk) 23:51, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
@Ejgreen77: Actually, my first search turned up a lot of hits. Here are a few of them: 1997, pt 1; 1997, pt 2; 1997b; 1997c; 1999, pt 1; 1999, pt 2; 1999b; 2004; 2005. That's significant coverage in multiple reliable sources. Looks like a GNG pass to me. Cbl62 (talk) 00:11, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
I'm a little surprised that there is nothing in WP:NATHLETE about professional softball players, but she should be good on GNG grounds in any event. Cbl62 (talk) 00:13, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
Thank you! That pretty much confirms what I suspected; she's notable, but her playing/coaching career is just old enough for sources to not be readily available online. Thank you so much!! I appreciate the help. Ejgreen77 (talk) 20:53, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
Was able to get it started tonight. Thanks so much!! Ejgreen77 (talk) 06:08, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Talk:1901 Add–Ran Horned Frogs football teamEdit

Hey...left on the 1901 Add-Ran Horned Frogs football team page where I found the reference for AddRan Christian University. I'll leave it as is, and leave it up to you to make changes if necessary. Could the newspapers be using an informal name, but the Library use the formal one?.....Pvmoutside (talk) 14:11, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Thanks and ExpansionEdit

Hi Cbl62! Thank you for adding extra sources to those college football drafts. I will go ahead and accept those drafts. I would love it if you could incorporate the articles you found into the prose of the article if you have time! Bkissin (talk) 17:10, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Georgetown fight name prior to 1928Edit

Seems that Georgetown didn't adopt the "Hoyas" fight names until about 1928, per Georgetown Hoyas. Prior to the that, they were often referred to as the "Blue and Gray" in newspaper articles. The Georgetown football season articles prior to 1928 need to renamed. Should we include "Blue and Gray" as their fight name? @Mdnavman: looks like you did the bulk of the work on the early Georgetown basketball articles. This fight name issue would apply to those as well. Thoughts? @MisterCake: any opinion here? Jweiss11 (talk) 23:59, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Hilltoppers, supposedly. Cake (talk) 06:38, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
My searches confirm that "Hoyas" began being used as the nickname for Georgetown sports teams in 1928. As for the prior years, "Hoyas" gets some hits, but that is primarily because of the student newspaper being called the "Hoya". Based on my search results, "Blue and Gray" looks to be the correct "COMMONNAME" in the pre-1928 years. My confidence level is pretty good on this conclusion for the years 1896-1927. However, in the 19th century, I am picking up way too many false positives on the "blue and gray" formulation, where the reference is, e.g., to "blue and gray" suit in advertisements. For pre-1896, and unless someone wants to do a much deeper analysis of the hits, I'd support no nickname for the Georgetown teams. "Hilltoppers" definitely gained momentum in the 1910s and even more in the 1920s, but it doesn't not seemed to have surpassed "Blue and Gray". FWIW, here's what a search reveals on the three proffered options from 1896-1927:
Year Georgetown Hoyas Georgetown "Blue and Gray" Georgetown Hilltoppers
1896-1900 282 2,412 3
1901-05 796 3,640 0
1906-10 509 5,650 411
1911-15 225 6,024 1,254
1916-20 156 3,218 1,056
1921-25 222 2,235 1,065
1926-27 101 637 384

Cbl62 (talk) 23:20, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Cbl, thanks for that research. I've gone ahead and made the changes accordingly. Jweiss11 (talk) 00:18, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: 1980 McNeese State Cowboys football team has been acceptedEdit

1980 McNeese State Cowboys football team, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
The article has been assessed as Stub-Class, which is recorded on the article's talk page. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article.

You are more than welcome to continue making quality contributions to Wikipedia. If your account is more than four days old and you have made at least 10 edits you can create articles yourself without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for Creation if you prefer.

Thank you for helping improve Wikipedia!

Bkissin (talk) 22:01, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Wilfred Childs - DOB and DOD?Edit

Hi Cbl62 – do you happen to have any subscription-based access to genealogy and/or census websites where the DOB and DOD can be determined from University of Chicago basketball coach Wilfred Childs? SportsGuy789 (talk) 16:04, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

I saw you added some biographical info. Thanks Cbl. SportsGuy789 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:24, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
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