Template talk:Germanic peoples

Scope

we need to restrain the scope of this template. It is questionable to extend it to the modern period. Perhaps it should only cover the time up to AD 1000 or so, including the Viking Age and the formation of the Holy Roman Empire. After that time, it becomes misleading to talk of "Germanic peoples" as a unity, because they had split up into clearly distinct nations and linguistic communities. dab (𒁳) 09:45, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

A good cut-off point is conversion to Christianity, as this goes with substantial Romanization, though that would eliminate AS England and other barbarian kingdoms. Otherwise, decide cut off points for the three regions — Germany, England and Scandiinavia — individually, while taking natural points for the Germanic kingdoms (i.e. their ends). Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 11:55, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't really agree on Christanization being a good "cut-off point". That would be 4th century for the Goths but 11th century for the Scandinavians. The Goths from the 4th, and the Anglo-Saxons from the 6th to 11th century weren't any less "Germanic" because they were Christian. I suppose the 11th century is reasonable. The "cut-off" isn't sudden, of course, but consists of the various shifts that characterize the High Middle Ages. Say 962 on the Continent (Otto I), 1015 in Scandinavia (Saint Olaf), and 1066 in England (William I). dab (𒁳) 12:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

To me the first part sounds reasonable! If we're to talk of Germanic peoples as having any unity beyond the happenstance fact that their languages have been grouped in one linguistic classification, lack of Christianization/Romanization gets you somewhere there, because you can still detect beforehand other common features, brought together under that wonderful umbrella term "religion". Anyone who studies "Germanic culture" today will look at Icelandic sagas from the 13th century [written about the 10th/11th], because the fact that Scandinavia held out against Christianity so long preserved aspects of Germanic culture that died or became invisible elsewhere. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 12:15, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

their cultural "unity" did not consist in their religion, but in their hierarchical organisation into tribes led by a warlord or king. The "Germanic laws" post-date Christianization and clearly distinguish between a Theodisca and a Welsh population. The fading of this distinction is what really shows the transition from migration period "tribal" to medieval "feudal" societal structure (the HRE had estates, not "Germanic" vs. "Welsh" castes). The distinction does of course persist into modern times (Englishry in the 11th to 14th c. was sort of an inverse discrimination of English vs. Norman), which is why it isn't nonsensical to talk of "Germanic Europe". dab (𒁳) 12:21, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

You'll find all sorts of cultural or organizational continuities between 1st cent. and 21st, but you're looking for some kind of conceptual cut-off. Christianization/Romanization is really the broadest, though of course it's a process rather than an event, of which the nomoinal "conversion" of the ruler is a nice starting point. So for polities, a good practice might be to only include polities that begin pagan, e.g. the AS kingdoms, Goths, Franks, etc, but not the HRE. Tribal to "feudal" is a general anthropological change rather than anything particularly Germanic, e.g. note the title of Katharine Simms work about late medieval Ireland "From kings to warlords"; happens in all regions, including for European regions Slavic lands such as Poland and Rus as well as Celtic lands like Ireland and Scotland. By definition, the precursor to "feudal" (for all its wooliness) is only ever Germanic when the language of those peoples is Germanic, which is circular. As for Englishries, etc, it's natural for conquering peoples to distinguish conquered by ethnicity ... you'll find it everywhere in the world, from Mongols and Turks, Turks and Arabs, Greeks and Copts, Romans and Gauls to English and Welsh. I don't see anything particularly "Germanic" here. All the best, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 12:46, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Look, Christianization may be a useful cutoff for "Migration period", but not for "Germanic peoples". I am happy to stick with the HMA as a de facto limit of the application of the term "Germanic peoples", but we can also consider extending this down to Germanic Europe. I am not saying tribal society is something particularly "Germanic". Come on. What do you mean "you'll find it everywhere in the world"? That's the entire point. We are trying to figure out for how long there was any "ethnic identity" in the Germanic case, not in the Mongol or Turkic case, wth?? I am saying that in the Germanic case, the term "Germanic" is falling out of use as tribal society transforms into feudal society. The fact that Turks and Arabs can also have feudal or tribal societies has nothing to do with this observation. The term "Germanic peoples" is only ever applied to Germanic-speaking peoples, that's not the problem. The problem is that there are Germanic-speaking peoples which are not usually counted as "Germanic peoples". The reason for this is ethnogenesis. The Germans are not "a Germanic people", they are a Germanic-speaking ethnicity that formed out of several Germanic peoples during, say, the 15th to 19th centuries. dab (𒁳) 13:02, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, no-one ever used the term "Germanic" until a couple of centuries ago. It's a neologism. If you are using "Germanic" to refer to another word, fair enough, but I don't know what word you're thinking of. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 13:17, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

It does not really matter if the very concept "Germanic" is a neologism. For Wikipedia purposes, it is sufficient that the concept exists in contemporary literature.--Berig (talk) 16:21, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

It's important for the particular point being discussed here. ;) Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:23, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, I think you can argue that there was a concept "Germanic" among the Germanic tribes. It would have corresponded to those who could call themselves þeudiskōz and could not be labelled finnōz or walhiskōz. But, that is just what seems reasonable to me.--Berig (talk) 17:03, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

the question is, what scope does the term "Germanic peoples" have in contemporary literature. It turns out that this is related (not identical, but related) to the currency of the historical term of theodiscus and cognates (as Berig has just pointed out). I'll state again that the (contemporary!) term of "Germanic peoples" can be used sensibly from about 500 BC to about AD 1000. There is no clear cut-off of course, but that's roughly the scope this template should envisage. dab (𒁳) 09:54, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Re Dbachmann, Germanic is a neologism. Why is "theodiscus" Germanic rather than German? It's obviously Theodiscus, but I think the historical developments are better understood translating it as "German". In fact, if you look into it, it's not romantic wishiwashiness to state that that identity continued from the ancient period until the present, primarily because Germaness is clearly distinguishable from neighbouring ethnicities, Slavic and Celto-Roman. Scandinivians are later distinguished by paganism (why "Saxons" are Scandinivians until they are converted) and English by being in Britain, the "Dutch" are still Germans into the 18th century and Austrians only ceased being Germans 60 years ago. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:02, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

DoP, this conversation is moving towards the surreal. We have long established that "Germanic" is a neologism. You do not seem to be referring to anything I was saying. Your statement surrounding "Germanness" seems completely confused. You may want to read our Germans and Theodiscus articles for background. Sorry if I am missing the point here, but your statement does not appear to make any sense with relation to the discussion of this template. dab (𒁳) 16:31, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Lol ... don't point me to dodgy wiki articles. The day I use those to form opinions is the day I put my neck in a rope. I have trouble following your own points myself, Dab. Not really sure what general point you're trying to construct, but nevertheless because I respect you am replying to you ad hoc. But lemme clear my perspective up for you. You're saying "Germanicness" existed until the High Middle Ages as a contemporary identity and thus topics until that point are valid in this template, yes? I'm saying you haven't made it clear how this is so. Lemme be clear, I think this is confused nonsense, but am willing to listen. But look, being a neologism is friggin important. If the real difference between "German" and "Germanic" did not come about until the 20th cent., then it is nonsense to use this as the basis of historical argument. Using terminology alone, there is terminological continuity (for whatever reason) between Tacitus and today, and usage changed only gradually. What's special about the High Middle Ages? Now if that's not the point you're making, and this is just a distraction from your central Feudalism argument, then I apologize, but then I'm no further towards understanding what a valid cut-off point would be. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:45, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I am not asking you to take the content of Wikipedia articles at face value, I am asking you to make a bona fide effort to grok a topic before arguing about it. dab (𒁳) 16:57, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Listen dab, I'm just as capable as you of making my arguments consist of nothing but patronising recommendations, but that couldn't really be described as bone fide. Are you gonna respond to me properly or not? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:08, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I have no interest in patronising you. I was saying that you do not make sense. I would be ever so glad if you could make a coherent statement. I have frankly no idea what you are trying to say, and I cannot be bothered to second-guess, sorry. dab (𒁳) 07:10, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I've had enough of this dab. This attitude is irritating and childish. If you honestly don't follow what I've said, you're capable of asking me to clarify. You're perfectly capable of understanding what I said above, and frankly I think you're just full of it. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:26, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

What about having an end date with the conversion to Catholicism? This conversion had deep changes in societal structure, such as the fact that the king lost his priestly role, and the demotion of the priestesses into witches. Moreover, through the "Catholicisation" the Germanic peoples became part of a pan-European culture and power structure.--Berig (talk) 14:17, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

This is what I suggested above, though I used "Romanization" rather than Catholicisation. :) Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 15:05, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Early time bound for inclusion

I also agree that the scope of this template should be limited somewhat. Having a precise date criterion for inclusion isn't necessary - we just need a rough one, see what articles that includes/excludes and then take each contentious case on the merit of that article. The article linked in the title only covers till the middle ages, and the linked portal is to ancient Germanic peoples; I think dab's endpoint is about right, and we can deal with the exceptions later.What concerns me more is the earliest point in time we want to cover - it's fair to say that the evidence that the Ertebølle culture (~4000BC) and Corded Ware culture (~3000BC) were definitively Germanic is weak and contested at best - even the contributions of the Jastorf culture is unclear, and that's from around ~100BC. Including these cultures in this template doesn't represent the academic consensus in sources at all - at the moment it's just a list of cultures that inhabited the relevant territory at some point. Knepflerle (talk) 11:07, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, it is difficult to find anything in academia that has not been questioned by some scholar, which is why we have a policy which is called WP:UNDUE. The identification of the Jastorf culture as Germanic is quite mainstream, and this also goes for the preceding Nordic Bronze Age culture.--Berig (talk) 13:59, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think WP:UNDUE applies here - the people who feel that there just isn't enough evidence to link strong influence of Jastorf on later Germanic cultures are hardly a small group of fringe crackpots. I agree with you about the Nordic Bronze Age culture, however.

But my point remains - Jastorf has a lot more cause for inclusion than the other two examples I gave and that is borderline. Inclusion in a template is seen by the reader as a purely binary measure of truth of a statement - putting them in is a statement "these groups are Germanic" without any of the shading or qualification we include in the article prose which shows that the situation is nuanced. Making such a definitive statement about uncertain issues is misleading to the reader. Knepflerle (talk) 16:28, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

If I you Knepflerle correctly, the problem is the importance of the Jastorf culture as an originator of Germanic culture. As far as I know, the Jastorf culture is one of several cultures that derived from, or were influenced by, the NBA. It's Germanic nature should not be very questioned, although its relative importance probably is.--Berig (talk) 16:41, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Please keep in mind that inclusion in a template does not amount to a claim but rather to a pragmatic suggestion that the link is useful in the context of the overarching topic. I am prepared to admit the Jastorf culture as Proto-Germanic, and the NBA as the immediate predecessor culture. I would consider anything further back (Scandinavian neolithic) as offtopic. Jastorf and NBA are clearly listed under "Prehistory", so that I do not think their listing is misleading. We seem to agree the Jastorf link is warranted. I admit the NBA one is open to debate, but unless the "Prehistory" section needs de-cluttering, I see no reason not to include it. dab (𒁳) 16:35, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I would not object to removal of the neolithic cultures in the template.--Berig (talk) 16:41, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't particularly bothered about the inclusion of Jastorf, I was just trying (and obviously failing) to say that the case for the neolithic cultures was much weaker than the case for this. I am perfectly happy with the list now after dab's and DoP's edits - I think it's more representative of what most people would expect to see included. And I accept dab's point about including contested material - I suppose Wikipedia is not censored for the benefit of those who don't read the article content and the source material! Knepflerle (talk) 17:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

There's really no censorship on WP in the benefit of anyone ;). In my experience, borderline cases are often included in templates in order to satisfy people who are either more strong-willed or simply more numerous than the critics, and I am specifically thinking of the inclusion of Finland in {{Scandinavia}}.--Berig (talk) 17:15, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

it's ok to include borderline cases, but the template needs to be kept neat and well-ordered. A template that is a heap of dozens and dozens of links is of no help to anyone. We have categories for browsing. The important thing is to keep in mind that this is a navigation aid. Sure, we can include the NBA. We could even include Battle-Axe culture is somebody felt really strongly about it. But there is a point where WP:UCS kicks in, and listing Ertebølle culture under "Germanic" is about as sensible as listing Neanderthal. As it stands, the template includes some seven dozen links already, and it may be necessary to tighten it somewhat. dab (𒁳) 06:56, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Still, this article is going to need constant cleaning up. Maybe this template could be split into several interlinked templates, such as {{Germanic wars}}, {{Germanic tribes}}, {{Germanic paganism}}, etc. I agree that the neolithic articles are too early to be relevant.--Berig (talk) 15:49, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

well, we have a good selection of links now. We can now decide which are really relevant and which should go. I don't think that splitting into lots of sub-templates is a good option: after all, where are we going to transclude all these from. It's better to only keep the major article, and avoid linking stubby articles of lesser importance. dab (𒁳) 15:57, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I think given the name of this template, i.e. "Germanic peoples", we should confine its coverage to Roman era "tribes". Make it more natural looking and will be easier to manage than the wooly "Germanic studies" template it's currently trying to be. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:53, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

If delimited to the Roman era, I think "Germanic tribes" would be a more appropriate name for the template.--Berig (talk) 16:57, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I think "peoples" is better. "Tribe" is nowadays often used as a very specific type of polity, which certainly many of these Germanic peoples (esp. late antique period) weren't. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:02, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

yes, but Berig is saying, the term "Germanic peoples" extends into the Middle Ages, including at least the Viking Age. Now can you please explain why you keep removing the Holy Roman Empire link? Obviously, we cannot list each and every kingdom, but as kingdoms go, this was, well, notable. Very. Or perhaps you can explain what you are trying to achieve here in the first place? The nature of your involvement is, hm, less than clear to me. dab (𒁳) 11:34, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Where is he saying that? As for the HRE, are you wanting me to paste my edit summaries for you or something? I think most people would say Kievan Rus, the Kingdoms of England and Norway are notable. Maybe in fact, being a kingdom at all is notable. No? So I'm waiting to hear what makes the HRE different. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 12:04, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

the Kievan Rus was East Slavic (sure, the preceding Rus' Khaganate may be considered a sub-topic of "Vikings"). The early Kingdom of England (from 927) is subsumed under Anglo-Saxon England (until 1066). If we agree to focus on the pre AD 1000 period, that's covered by Anglo-Saxon England. I did put some thought into this, you know. If you read this conversation, you will see that Berig just said that if we restrict this to the Roman era, the more fitting term would be Germanic tribes. The reason for this being that Germanic peoples is taken to extend into the post-Roman, medieval period. PoD, why are you making this so difficult? You seem to deliberately(?) play dumb and make people guide you through the conversation broken down step by step. Why? Do try to apply some WP:UCS to this. I am not trying to shout you down or patronise you, but if you cannot make sense, there is little I can do for you. --dab (𒁳) 10:37, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Listen, can you cut the silly personal crap and stick to topic for a change? It's backfiring on you and is not very dignified for anyone. It isn't btw my fault if you have comprehension difficulties. Anyways, the tautologous term Anglo-Saxon England is a period name rather than the name of a Kingdom. What England, Kievan Rus, Norway, etc, all have in common is being founded by Germanic peoples before 1000, like the Holy Roman Empire/Kingdom of Germany. The end result is rather ridiculous given the de facto scope of the template. As I've already suggested, Christianization is a better less arbitrary way to handle this. You get pretty much all the peoples for whom "Germanic" is a well-used term, and you don't get things like the Kingdom of England and the HRE. As you claim knowledge of anthropology and Roman -era/early medieval history, my problem with the word "tribe" shouldn't need to be explained. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 14:38, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

you are the one poisoning the well with your vitriol here. I submit that the "comprehension difficulties" are entirely yours, and I fail to understand why you should feel compelled to make life difficult for me trying to compile a perfectly straightforward navigation template dab (𒁳) 08:40, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Herr Bachmann, did I wrong thee in another life or something? I don't understand this persistent incivility. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 15:53, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

---

How about "Germanic cultures" as opposed to peoples or tribes? It seems to fit the content better. Knepflerle (talk) 12:23, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

That fits the current content better, true. Ancient Germanic cultures would also be good, as it would solve the terminological problem of when to distinguish the modern terms "Germanic" and "German". Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 12:27, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Yep, "Ancient Germanic cultures" seems sensible to me. Knepflerle (talk) 12:35, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

which would exclude Anglo-Saxon England, the Viking Age, and actually most of Germanic philology (except for a few scattered runic inscriptions). I also don't like the "Ancient". I see "ancient" used for cheap effect far too often on Wikipedia. Replace "ancient" with something more specific, or perhaps with "early". I don't quite see the point to do a "Germanic" template and then restrict it to prehistory. Maybe we can envisage a {{Migration period}} that would more usefully focus on a period, not a linguistic group. dab (𒁳) 10:34, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Germanic philology already has its own template. "Ancient Germanic" would hardly be "pre-history"; as long as all the topics have a chronological beginning in the Roman period, it is fine, and the term is wooly enough to sneak in all other pre-Christian "Germanic" peoples. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 00:59, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

you know what, why don't we cut this down to the absolute minimum we can all agree on and call it a day, and you'll be free to find some other place to shove your "expertise" on people. --dab (𒁳) 08:40, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

So does mean you wouldn't object to a move then? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 15:53, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

this template

my original plan was to compile a template that gives quick access to the most central articles of our coverage of "Germanic" topics. Of course, lots of people know better, and within no time, this template was turned into an unreadable mess, experienced edit wars, and this talkpage filled up with petty bickering. It appears to be a natural law that Wikipedia navigation templates gravitate towards unusability. Can we try to reduce this template to something that might actually be useful? Perhaps restrict ourselves to 20 links maximum? dab (𒁳) 18:35, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I am fine with reducing the template down to 20 links, as you'll note that in my recent edit summary I've noted that the template is too cluttered. However, it's going to need to reflect actual article titles instead of terms like "Völkerwanderung". :bloodofox: (talk) 18:40, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

as these things go, the template just got more cluttered over time, through nobody's fault in particular, that's just the natural tendency of Wikipedia templates. We need to cut it down radically for it to be useful. I would just do it, but with a view to the irrational quibbling I had to put up with above, I would be grateful if somebody else could do the job. --dab (𒁳) 11:32, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Edits

@Srnec: Regarding some WP:BOLD edits that you reverted. You suppressed quite some work there. While I certainly think further improvements could be done, was really all of it better left for the dogs? Chicbyaccident (talk) 01:01, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

I agree wholly with User:Dbachmann in the threads above. At the size you made it it is completely useless as a *navigational aid*, which is all it is supposed to be. It is not short in its present state, but it is at least simply organized and easy on the eyes. Srnec (talk) 01:49, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Template talk:Germanic pagan practices which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 16:18, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Merge note

After merging articles eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2018_November_26#Template:Germanic_tribes the person involved is supposed to clean up redirects after, not just leave duplicates .. [cleaned up now]

Regarding Kingdom of Africa

@Srnec: Regarding this revert. Thanks for you feedback. As for the Kingdom of Africa being "patently absurd", well, as we know there are lots of different realms in the histories of these regions. I'm trying to establish where the waters divide here. I wasn't the one who came up with the idea of having a section of "Realms and hegemonies" in this template. However, if we are to keep this section - which I would believe has reason - then shouldn't we include all such realms and hegemonies that are relevant to the scope/intersection? If we are to do that, shouldn't Kingdom of Africa be included among these? If it should include Kingdom of Africa, shouldn't the respective article have this template included then? PPEMES (talk) 18:09, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

My own opinion is that this template is bloated and useless as it stands. But on the question at hand, my answer would be to pare down the realms. There was nothing importantly Germanic about the Norman kingdom of Sicily. Or the Duchy of Cantabria. If neither the majority of the people nor at least the ruling class actually spoke a Germanic language, then they should go. This version is much better. Srnec (talk) 18:15, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Didn't you yourself qualify the Norman kingdom of Sicily (as reflected in its article contents), by calling it Norman - weren't the Normans of North Germanic origins? As for the Duchy of Cantabria, wasn't it "a march created by the Visigoths" - and weren't the Visigoths "the western branches of the nomadic tribes of Germanic peoples referred to collectively as the Goths"? PPEMES (talk) 18:30, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

The Normans who conquered southern Italy were not a "Germanic people" and the Principality of Antioch they founded was not a Germanic state. Srnec (talk) 02:36, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

I wonder if there has ever been any Germanic states. However, the scope of the listed realms I suppose generally is not essential properties but accidental ones. Where there nothing North Germanic - culturally, linguistically or otherwise - about the Normans? PPEMES (talk) 11:18, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Template breaking

@Randy Kryn: You destroyed this template too. :( PPEMES (talk) 17:40, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Okay. I don't know if you're joking or not (was going to come back with a semi-funny line but not sure). Since this is on the talk page, and for talk page readers, I just put in a break so that the years went onto a second line], like the rest of the template. And I'd do it again! (?) (joke). Randy Kryn (talk) 22:05, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

It does break the template. I urge you to discuss this category of edits in a single location discussion, prefeably including technical experts on the matter on Wikipedia. PPEMES (talk) 23:55, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

What category of edits? Maybe I'm missing something. I moved the years of one subsection to a second line, like the rest of the template already has them (are you sure you are looking at my edit?). Can't think of what's wrong, but since you object will revert. I use Monobook, is there a different look to the template with other skins? Randy Kryn (talk) 01:18, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Do you mean the unevenness of the section blocks? On Monobook the section blocks are uneven even with the revert. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:09, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

I don't doubt your well intentions. However, I'm afraid we would need third party technically skilled perspectives on this issue. PPEMES (talk) 21:38, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

What issue? Seriously, I don't have a clue to what you are talking about. Randy Kryn (talk) 01:20, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Well, you messed up the templates with your changes so that it looks bad now. PPEMES (talk) 16:40, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

"How?" (he asks from stage left for the fourth time). A stagehand tosses a link into the spotlight while a loud unseen voice intones "These are the users edits to the template, these are the edits of Christmas Past". As the editor wanders the stage, picking and kicking at debris which moves hither and yon, a large screen shot of a Wikipedia article is back-lit and accompanied by the sound of crows, some in distune, others singing in softer tones which appear realistically and float. A fog machine emits things other than fog. The day shortens. The Editor, now taking on the role of The Editor of Christmas Present, puts a good edit into the {{Franz Kafka}} template, thanks the bringer-of-the-unanswered-question for putting his attention onto it. Curtains fall, loosened on top, so the curtains flutter unrealistically and bundle-fall onto the stage. They impartially cover a three-person editathon, and bring with them a full Christmas meal of joy, whatnot, and roasted goose with chestnut-caroled pizza. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:23, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Practical problem with the size of this template

Obviously the template has had a tendency to become too big for a long time, as shown by old discussions. I have noticed in the last year or so it is bigger than ever, and really can't be seen as a working navigation tool anymore at all? I don't normally get involved in such discussions, but on some articles this template now dominates the whole screen, and so if anyone has any idea about what to do to split it, perhaps we should do it. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:11, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

A good place to start would be to remove duplicates. The only non-duplicate link under migrations is to Anglo-Saxon settlement of Britain. Some peoples are mentioned both in the ancient and medieval sections, which seems unnecessary. Danes, Jutes and Gutes were not even attested until in the early medieval period. Andejons (talk) 13:21, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

This has been raised before by both myself and Dbachmann. The template is useless as it stands. I'd suggest just reverting back some years and working from there. Srnec (talk) 01:48, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

@Andejons: if there are obvious duplications that seems like low hanging fruit which make sense, but I wonder if that really solves the bigger problem?

@Srnec: I wonder if that is realistic though, or whether it will just inevitably be reverted? Is there any logical way to divide this into different templates somehow?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:19, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

If I look at other similar templates about "peoples" then they rarely seem to have sections for things like languages and language history, whereas those types of topics clearly often have their own templates. Archaeological groups appear in two different parts of the template, and could also easily have their own. I also think it is obvious the medieval section is really pushing the envelope. The links which aren't just duplicated seem to just go to sections of articles, often not even medieval (Scirian Kingdom, Suebian Kingdom (Danube)).

PROPOSAL remove these:

• Prehistory, background (this is all archaeological cultures)
• all archaeological cultures
• Roman Iron Age and Notable migrations (these have no clear logic: duplications, sections, debatable relevance etc)
• Language development (clearly a separable category)
• Early Middle Ages (duplications, section links etc, mostly the relevance is extremely debatable)
• Christianisation (clearly a separable topic)--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 13:39, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
• Keep - Prehistory, archaeology, migrations, linguistics, medieval history and Christianization are all essential aspects of the topic Germanic peoples: See the following sources:

• Murdoch, Brian; Read, Malcolm Kevin (2004). Early Germanic Literature and Culture. Boydell & Brewer. ISBN 157113199X. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |registration= and |subscription= (help); Invalid |ref=harv (help)
• Green, D. H. (2000). Language and History in the Early Germanic World. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0521794234. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |registration= and |subscription= (help); Invalid |ref=harv (help)
• Todd, Malcolm (2004). The Early Germans. Blackwell Publishing. ISBN 9781405117142. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |subscription= and |registration= (help); Invalid |ref=harv (help)
• Heather, Peter. "Germany: Ancient History". Encyclopædia Britannica Online. Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc. {{cite web}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
• Thompson, E. A. "Germanic peoples". Encyclopædia Britannica Online. Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc. {{cite web}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

If there are size issues, the proper remedy would be to move redundant links. This proposed butchery of the template by completely switching its scope is not an improvement. Krakkos (talk) 14:13, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Pinging PPEMES, cymru.lass and Bloodofox, who participated at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2018 November 26#Template:Germanic tribes. Krakkos (talk) 14:13, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

These templates are just navigation tools? So they are just pointless if they are bigger than the articles. I don't see why you see this as an emotional issue ("butchery" etc), nor any kind of debate which is helped by posting lots of sources. (Not that any of those sources are going to back up the idea that all these links are "essential".) --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:22, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

• Support the proposal above. The remplate is just far too big. Navigation can be done by the category structure, or links in articles. Johnbod (talk) 14:34, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
• Keep as is, until better presentations readily offered here. Although I generelly agree that templates should not be too large, I seem to have more tolerence for larger exceptions than other observers, and this seems an acceptible exception to me. Nontheless, I would welcome a central discussion on this as it is not the first time I come across the subject? Now, about the contents of the template. Available archeology and documentation is not what strictly separates "Prehistory, background" and "Ancient peoples and tribes". Althoug proposals of better visual presentation would be welcome, as such, I object to the reasoning of plain deletion of the former. "Roman Iron Age" and "Notable migrations" was introduced by someone else - I find them notable as subsections as is, until someone can offer a more comprehensive presentation of the matters. I don't know how the relevance of the "Early Middle Ages" is debatable? Does it include too little, too much, or could the matters be presented in better ways? The language section could be relocated to and merged with Template:Germanic philology, but I'm not sure clearing it out makes sense as we're talking about history of an ethnolinguistic group of peoples and tribes. "Christianisation" is put as the last section since it coincides with the multi-century long and geographically fragmental era when "Germanic peoples" ceased to be composed of archaic tribes and peoples and gradually transformed into ethnic and national identities in a more modern sense, some of which remain till this day. Am I wrong? PPEMES (talk) 14:41, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
• Comment. Any PART of the proposal which has good support should go ahead? We do not need to wait for longer discussion about borderline cases. But I don't really understand what is so controversial. There is just too much, and the reason is that we seem to be defining anything connected as "essential". Should we also have listings of all Roman subjects? All northern European geographical topics? Every modern country where a Germanic language is spoken? We need to draw a line and keep the template small. Make more templates?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:54, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

No, because this is about history of the Germanic peoples. Not Northern European geographical topics, nor modern countries where Germanic languages are spoken. The latter is more for Template:Germanic philology if anything. PPEMES (talk) 20:53, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

I was giving hypothetical examples with some joke value. It would be easy to have made them more convincingly "Germanic" and still come up with a list of thousands. I repeat: we simply need to draw a line. Templates are not categories. They are navigation tools. This one is now broken.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:04, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Well, I for one deem this one pretty fair in its inclusions, limited to size parametres. That's why I can but address your specific concerns. PPEMES (talk) 21:08, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

But no one is ever going to use it for its intended purpose, so what is it for?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:25, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Well, what about for the propose of the scope of the history of Germanic peoples? I'm not sure how our understanding of the topic scope differs? Since I understand it pretty much as summarised in the template, what is your interpretation of the scope? PPEMES (talk) 21:29, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Isn't that more what categories are for? Navigation boxes are meant to be simple tools for readers. For anyone who knows how to use all the categories and so on we do not need this. Normal navigation boxes are often just a simple listing of similar articles: for example only the Germanic peoples themselves, and not every topic CONNECTED to those Germanic peoples. Each of the horizontal rows could more typically be a template in itself, in this case. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:39, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Isn't that a very strict interpretation of the due use of navigational boxes? Are you sure we have to limit ourselves that much? PPEMES (talk) 21:51, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Categories, navbox templates, and lists are three distinctly different ways of listing and finding articles in Wikipedia. By guideline and Wikipedia policy they are separate entities, not related, and certainly not meant to be substituted for one another (a common mistake used at AfD way too often). Navboxes are simple tools but don't have to be simplified to dilute the subject, good templates tell a cohesive available-article Wikipedia storyline. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:53, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Can you give a link to somewhere in WP space which explains navigation means telling a story? Surely the articles are where we tell the story? What I see on the guideline pages for Navigation boxes is that we should split up areas to get small navigation boxes. Splitting-up is not diluting. Your definition of diluting would seem to imply no limit on what connections can be included? Where do we draw the line?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 22:02, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

"Telling a story" is a way of saying that a good template will have a flow to it. Much of that is chronological, but also by importance of the topic in relationship to the overall topic. This one is quite broad, and nothing wrong in that. Wanting to take a full map and split it up into many small templates seems counter-productive to presenting the reader with a site-map. It just has to make sense and maintain a flow, which this one does (although it needs polishing and tweaks) in its creative educational scope and chronological presentation. Randy Kryn (talk) 02:53, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

OK, so can you point to any community consensus that navigation boxes are supposed to show a "creative educational" story, flow, chronology, full site-map, or anything like any of those words? It honestly does not seem to me to be what the community wants these boxes to be doing. See WP:NAV-WITHIN where it seems to me this template is in conflict with every guideline?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 06:59, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose: This is just an attempt to sneak POV changes in under the radar. Changes like this need a properly advertised Request for comment in order to get the widest possible input/participation. - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 17:06, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Really? WP:AGF please. People have been complaining about the size of this template since 2008 (see above) . There shouold be no need at all for an RFC if agreement can be reached here. Johnbod (talk) 18:06, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

The size would be much improved if that useless 'General' section were removed and maybe a couple little break-tweaks. I can't figure out how to do it without breaking the code, if someone could take a crack at that everyone may be pleasantly surprised at the size-savings. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:28, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

• oppose although remove the 'General' section head which is unlinked, either redundant or tangential, and removing it will bring a good deal more horizontal template space (templates of this size are fine if coherent and organized well). Randy Kryn (talk) 17:19, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

So you are saying no other shortening at all is possible? Really? So what is this template supposed to be for according to you?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:28, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

The topic 'History of the Germanic peoples' is broad, and although I'm not an expert the template seems to cover the topic well. I don't know if much shortening is needed or not needed, haven't made a mental map of this one, yet a fully-mapped template of Wikipedia articles on a large topic necessarily takes in a lot of territory. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:35, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

There are literally years of concerns being raised on this talk page. Not relevant?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 22:02, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

This discussion is about the size of the template. Let's remove the 'General' section head and see what it looks like, then a bit more reordering. I said I haven't made a mental map of the subject so I can't judge the template on its rolling out each separate topic (each section and subsections is a separate topic, a contained map) in a logical manner that defines the arc of the topic. But from what I'm seeing they all seem relevant, and as I understand the aim of some in this discussion is to remove large sections of the arc and I'm not understanding why. Randy Kryn (talk) 02:43, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes, there are years of discussions about the size of the template, so this is the same concern. The template now also has a far too complex structure or hierarchy. The basic issue, over and over, is that this template is not built as a simple navigation tool. Your own description of it performing a "creative educational" role shows how this template is built according to principles quite different to WP:NAV-WITHIN? As a navigation tool, it is failing. As a "creative educational" tool it is like a pseudo article, and that is not a good thing.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:07, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

• Support proposal. There is almost no hacking away at this template that wouldn't improve it. It is supposed to aid navigation quickly between related articles. It does not do that. Srnec (talk) 02:01, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
• Just brought the state of the template to 'collapsed' because of its size. It was at 'autocollapse', which probably opened it up at most of the pages. That should relieve much of the size concern expressed in the nom. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:04, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

@PPEMES and Randy Kryn: It appears that you guys have been major contributors to this template. I personally believe you have done great work. In my view the template was nevertheless larger than necessary. It would be unfortunate if the large size would be used as an excuse to break the template up. I have therefore made an attempt at reducing its size.[1] If you feel this involved the removal of crucial information, please do reinsert it. Krakkos (talk) 10:37, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

That seems fine, good work. As I mentioned, I'm not an expert on the subject and haven't focused on it enough to make a judgment or have a feel of what's important enough to be included in the topic definition map or how it should be arranged by section or within a section (by importance, chronologically, alphabetically, or otherwise). If it stays as is the size is small enough to move the state back to autocollapse. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:36, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

@Krakkos: thanks for that effort. It seems a step in the right direction. There are a few things I did not expect such as the new subsection about "studies" and the fairly significant reduction in listings of actual "Germanic peoples". Maybe others will think of tweak proposals, but it does not [replace: now] look to me more like a navigation box.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:46, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Where is now the promptly deleted information hidden? Other templates? PPEMES (talk) 10:24, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

There are no clear cut rules apparently, but I would prefer the first sub-section to include all the Germanic peoples. It is the Germanic peoples template, so if there were only one line, that would be it. I think the History, Studies, and Christianization sections are not really needed, nor specifically Germanic.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 18:24, 7 May 2020 (UTC).

PPEMES, there was a lot of good information in the template. All of it is of course saved in the edit history. Germanic peoples is an extensive topic, and if the template were to link to every sub-topic, it would become too large. That's why i trimmed the template while preserving the core topics. If you feel there are additional links which should be included, please do reinsert them. Creating templates for Early Germanic warfare, Germanic paganism, Early Germanic law and other sub-topics might also be an idea. Krakkos (talk) 19:27, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Dimadick has reverted the shortening proposal by Krakkos, but not commented here. It would be good to know if Dimadick can see any other way of shortening or breaking up the template. Obviously there is a long history of straightforward practical concerns being raised which will keep coming back. It would be better to assist in coming up with a long-term solution?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:23, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

• Keep I have been using the template in recent months to easily navigate between articles on tribes only mentioned in classical sources (Greek and Roman) and to add them to various WikiProjects since several of them have not been added to anything. Without the template, many of the articles barely have incoming links. Krakkos' version of the template is practically useless in mentioning only "major" groups and trying to add a geographic distinction that is not reflected in the articles.Dimadick (talk) 07:37, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

I have again made an attempt at trimming the template, while preserving an extended list of all Germanic peoples without geographic distinction.[2] This should address everyone's concerns. If there are more links that should be included, feel free to do so. I would also encourage the creation of templates for Germanic paganism, Early Germanic warfare and other sub-topics. Some of tribes now added to the template may also need to be added to WikiProjects. Krakkos (talk) 09:59, 8 May 2020 (UTC)