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Proposed deletion of Annett RennebergEdit

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The article Annett Renneberg has been proposed for deletion because it appears to have no references. Under Wikipedia policy, this biography of a living person will be deleted after seven days unless it has at least one reference to a reliable source that directly supports material in the article. The nominator also raised the following concern:

Unreferenced article about German actress

If you created the article, please don't be offended. Instead, consider improving the article. For help on inserting references, see Referencing for beginners, or ask at the help desk. Once you have provided at least one reliable source, you may remove the {{prod blp/dated}} tag. Please do not remove the tag unless the article is sourced. If you cannot provide such a source within seven days, the article may be deleted, but you can request that it be undeleted when you are ready to add one.

German nobilityEdit

I need some help understanding the German nobility, and article 109 of the Weimar Constitution. According to the many pages on different German nobility, following 1919, titles were changed to just be a part of the surname (e.g. Graf#Modern usage in German surnames). However, the wording is not very specific as to the broader affect. Because when looking at people who died 6, 21 and 117 years before the law came into effect, they are also written as if affected by the law. But can a law really retroactively change peoples names and history? In any case, it needs to be better clarified on the various pages and nobility templates. Skjoldbro (talk) 16:01, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

I think the key phrase from Artikel 109, "Adelsbezeichnungen gelten nur als Teil des Namens und dürfen nicht mehr verliehen werden", simply meant that titles such as "Graf" were no longer considered as such but rather just a component of the name. Prior to 1919, they were regarded as titles, which were also part of the formal name. I do not understand your concern. Jmar67 (talk) 06:42, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
@Jmar67: it just seems like every German page, regardless of age, has the title as a last name. E.g. Otto Eduard Leopold Fürst von Bismarck, Herzog zu Lauenburg, should it not rather be “Fürst Otto Eduard”? Skjoldbro (talk) 14:01, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
I think that's how it's always been said in modern German, but I'm not entirely sure.--Ermenrich (talk) 14:04, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
The title used with a geographical region, family name, or other qualifier normally goes at the end. Otherwise it precedes the name. In order for it to be considered part of the name in the sense of Article 109, it has to follow the first convention, e.g. Otto Graf Lambsdorff, not Graf Otto Lambsdorff, to use an example of a prominent FDP politician during my stay in Germany. It may have been common prior to 1919 to place "Graf" ahead of the name in particular families. But it looks like "von Schlieffen" did not do that. In the case of Bismarck, there were two titles involved (Fürst and Herzog), and they would have to follow the name. At any rate, placing the title after the name is not necessarily a consequence of the Weimar Constitution. Jmar67 (talk) 02:56, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
@Jmar67:@Ermenrich: Thanks for the replies, I guess that makes sense. Do you think the pages on German nobility pages are clear enough in pointing this out? Skjoldbro (talk) 18:38, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
I don't think it is necessary to mention the 1919 change unless it is especially noteworthy (such as the Graf Lambsdorff case). If you think a particular page should address it, please advise. Jmar67 (talk) 10:48, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
I can't think of any particular case where it would need to be pointed out, but there might be some.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:26, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
Well, for your English speaking wikipedia you will have to decide whether you follow the German law of 1919, or whether you follow an English tradition. Just two examples of hundreds: You have here lots of different lemmas like Prince Ernst August of Hanover on the one hand and Ernst August, Prince of Hanover on the other hand (which is in this case the very same person). If you follow the German constitutional law of 1919, this should read Ernst August Prinz von Hannover instead: As it's not a title any more but simply a name, there is consequently no room for translating Prinz into Prince, von into of, and Hannover into Hanover. Like you wouldn't translate Johann Sebastian Bach into John Seb River. But no German law could hinder you from deciding to stick to an English tradition on foreign noble names. Even the German rainbow press will forever write willfully wrongly the former "title" like Prinz or Graf in front of the first name instead of the last name like 200 years ago, at least for all those celebs who are not politicians or scientists but famous only as rich or beautiful or "noble" society. For historical figures who lived in times when there was nobility until 1918, the old titles remain the same throughout scientific history writing in German and stay as titles in front of the first name. Had Ernst August lived in the 19th century, he would still be referred to as Prinz Ernst August von Hannover, because then he really would have been a prince and addressed to as "Königliche Hoheit/Royal Highness". Only for the last 100 years, he is Ernst August Prinz von Hannover and correctly addressed to simply as "Herr von Hannover". By the way, if it delivers any comfort, in some single cases, there are lively discussions on these matters in German as well, e.g. for Otto von Habsburg, who would have been the Austrian crown prince if nobility had gone on existing in Austria. Instead, 100 years ago Austria deleted the "Prinz" and even the "von" completely. So in Austria they'd call him Otto Habsburg. But he passed his last decades outside Austria in Bavaria and kept not the "Prinz" but just the "von" in an indiscriminate interpretation of the German law. 2003:EF:BF0:1219:24A7:96A9:8BC3:E6CF (talk) 18:02, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Otto of Greece GAREdit

A Good Article Reassessment proposal has been started at Otto of Greece, an article within this project's scope. All interested editors are invited to participate. Constantine 17:20, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Request for information on WP1.0 web toolEdit

Hello and greetings from the maintainers of the WP 1.0 Bot! As you may or may not know, we are currently involved in an overhaul of the bot, in order to make it more modern and maintainable. As part of this process, we will be rewriting the web tool that is part of the project. You might have noticed this tool if you click through the links on the project assessment summary tables.

We'd like to collect information on how the current tool is used by....you! How do you yourself and the other maintainers of your project use the web tool? Which of its features do you need? How frequently do you use these features? And what features is the tool missing that would be useful to you? We have collected all of these questions at this Google form where you can leave your response. Walkerma (talk) 04:24, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Requested moveEdit

Greetings! I have recently relisted a requested move discussion at Talk:AXN (German TV channel), regarding a page relating to this WikiProject. Discussion and opinions are invited. Thanks, comrade waddie96 ★ (talk) 09:40, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Germany state and regional portalsEdit

With the demise of Portal:Berlin, it's clear that few, if any, Germany-related portals are unlikely to survive the current deletion campaign which sees them competing with articles and so sets page views as the decisive factor, however notable the subject area is. Even Portal: Harz which survived a deletion bid last April has been put up again for deletion by the same crew. It's also clear that there's no effective support from project editors to retain them in portal space either. With that in mind, I'm in the process of moving the remnant of the Germany-related portals to project space so that we can at least continue to use them in a very practical way to see topic coverage 'at a glance' and to continue to expand and improve topic articles in a structured way as I have been doing over the years using these portals as my guide. I'll put links to them in due course on the main project page. Bermicourt (talk) 19:59, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Help DYK Ronald Grossarth-MaticekEdit

I think this could be DYKed, but needs expansion, and think most mundane issues (not related to the recent controversy) are in German. De wikipedia has a much longer article, but most sources are in German, so if someone would like to help add ~200+ words with German refs, it would be appreciated. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:24, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Crimes of Nazi GermanyEdit

Is this salvageable? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:36, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

That is no article, in this form it possibly could survive as a list. --Kgfleischmann (talk) 10:27, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

FYI: Request for comment regarding Austrian (or Swiss) Standard GermanEdit

Hi, I would like to call your attention to the following request for comment because it is relevant to Standard German, especially to Austrian (or Swiss) Standard German:

Thanks --mach 🙈🙉🙊 14:31, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Discussion of German language or grammar articles - where?Edit

Hello. I'm very very sorry if this is a stupid FAQ or the answer is right in front of me or if I have just got something massively and fundamentally wrong. I've frequently been guilty of all the above and plenty more so please be kind to me if I've done it yet again.

  • I'd like to discuss a specific issue about how we do some German language articles. It's not huge, but it does affect more than one so it seems better to seek a more central forum than to start off a discussion on one Talk page in the hope of being able to apply its outcome to others. And I really hate mad crusaders who just get a bee in the bonnet and rock up and charge around changing colour to color or trunk to boot in 600 articles, so I would rather discuss it politely and centrally and try to understand the issue with other editors who are more knowledgeable than me (a low bar, tbh). The outcome of my enquiry will not be an impassioned orgy of editing across dozens of articles. Indeed it might be nothing at all.
  • I also slightly hate bothering individual German-speaking friends here (you know who you are!) or friends/family IRL with my whingeing, so I am looking for a proper whinge-forum in these parts instead! (Goak here).
  • I've been a member of, but not a significant contributor to, this Wikiproject for some time so – or but – I don't really feel as if I know my way around it properly. Sorry.
  • I've looked in vain at the project front page, under things such as Project Divisions, Related Groups, and Task Forces, for a specific mention of language or grammar and not yet found it; similarly I don't think that there is a separate "Wikiproject German Language", or whatever, that I have overlooked, but please tell me if I am wrong.
  • So where do I ask my question? There must (must – yesno??) be such a place – so I ask it there and, I hope, several editors with knowledge of, and commitment to, our German language coverage call me a silly sausage and set me on the right path, or not, or whatever? It might even be right here, but I didn't want to start without checking, and I don't want to risk reinventing the wheel if exactly the right place exists elsewhere, but I have simply failed to find it.
  • To reiterate: it is a kind of procedural editing custom-and-practice question about German language articles on en-Wikipedia. It is not a question about how to speak or write German (I'm quite rubbish enough at that anyway, without bringing it here to annoy you!)

The highly observant reader will have noticed that I've not actually said what my editing concern is! This isn't an accidental omission – I didn't want to start two hares off running at the same time as it so often leads to a mess. Please tell me where a good place is to actually ask my language article question, and I will actually ask it! Finally, it is not earthshatteringly urgent and no-one will die if it is not resolved in the next 10 minutes, and I am not planning to sue, "contact Wiki", or withdraw my massive sponsorship, so if you would rather take your time and have a cup of tea, please do. Or don't worry at all. It's minor. The Thames is not on fire. Thanks and best wishes to all, DBaK (talk) 14:47, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

  • [User:DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered|DBaK]]: I can think of several valid places where you could ask about German language and grammar. Here is fine, but if you want to avoid any Germany-centrism and make sure you include Austrian and Swiss perspectives as well, Wikipedia talk:German-speaking Wikipedians' notice board would be a classic place to ask (older than this WikiProject, but a bit less active these days). If it is mostly about Germany and you wish to debate how to change a convention, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Germany/Conventions is a place to start. But as long as you advertise your discussion well, anywhere will be fine (last discussion about German language I was involved in was in the Help talk namespace of all places). If you are happy to ask here: how can we help you? —Kusma (t·c) 19:12, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
    • Thanks Kusma for the very helpful reply. I will have a look around and make my enquiry somewhere. Please, however, do not hold your breath as the world of work and real life has caught up with me a bit right now ... Cheers DBaK (talk) 21:05, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Umlauts in an alphabetical listEdit

Hoping someone here can advise about this. Is it correct that in an alphabetical list Düsseldorf precedes Duisburg because of the umlaut (ue)? SarahSV (talk) 01:04, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi SlimVirgin – I was hoping that someone with more clue than me (i.e. anyone) would reply, so please take this with a pinch of salt and hope that someone else does chime in. But just on what I recall/feel (yes, OR!) then no - if anything I would expect the unaccented U to get in before the umlauted one. I do think that there are different ways of dealing with this - I think that historically at least the accented versions were sometimes all shoved to the end of the alphabet so that u-umlaut was somewhere after Z. On a quick look at my Duden app, though, what I see is that in its alphabetical list the U-umlaut comes after the U – but it does not affect the order of the following stuff, which is determined by ordinary alpha position. There is a sort of local sort on the Us followed by the main sort continuing. All the Us are sorted the same for the overall word, but within the U the umlauted ones follow the ordinary ones. So Duisburg is way before Düsseldorf because Dui is before Dus, but around Düsseldorf you get: Düsentriebwerk - Dussel - Düsseldorf - Dusselei - dusselig ... so it has sorted the whole words ignoring the variant of U, then resorted otherwise-matching stuff ONLY addressing the Us. I think. Does that make some kind of sense? well, I am writing from a gloomy position of profound ignorance but I have perhaps at least started the ball rolling, and maybe a proper German-knowledgeable person will step in now and help out ... Best wishes to all, DBaK (talk) 09:40, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
Langenscheidt's dictionary appears to ignore the umlaut in deciding word order. Bermicourt (talk) 18:00, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
DBaK and Bermicourt, thank you for the replies, which are very helpful. My thinking was that, if you don't use the umlaut, you'd write Duesseldorf, which would come before Duisburg, and therefore that order should be maintained even with the umlaut. But that's probably muddled thinking, so I'm glad I checked. Thanks again, SarahSV (talk) 01:01, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
SarahSV. You're too harsh on yourself! You're thinking isn't muddled; the umlaut represents a missing "e" and is sometimes used if keyboards can't produce the umlaut. My guess is that Langenscheidt ignores it because it's felt to be less confusing to find words. But I haven't checked other dictionaries... Bermicourt (talk) 13:33, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
DBaK and Bermicourt, I hadn't even thought to look up Alphabetical order; see the section Language-specific conventions. On the German Wikipedia, it says the same, namely that dictionary order ignores umlauts, but lists of names are handled differently. See Alphabetische Sortierung#Deutschland, which discusses "DIN 5007 Variante 2 (spezielle Sortierung für Namenslisten, etwa in Telefonbüchern; Abschnitt 6.1.1.4.2)": when listing names of people, institutions and places, the umlaut is taken into account, i.e. ä is treated as ae, ö as oe, and ü as ue. That would place Düsseldorf ahead of Duisburg. If I've understood it correctly, this type of ordering is used for names because some examples of the same name use the umlaut and some don't (Mueller, Müller), and to separate them would be confusing. SarahSV (talk) 23:17, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Short answer - no time to read: when we list names for DEFAULTSORT, we drop the umlaut. It makes sense to sort the same way for lists, or would be confusing. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:37, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

@SlimVirgin: In Germany, we love rules. The "best rules" are from the Deutsches Institut für Normung (German Institute for Standardization) which is the German member of the International Organization for Standardization. They have two different rules on this issue, both listed under DIN-Norm 5007. Variant 1 has all Umlaute treated as if they do not have the tréma. In variant 2, they are treated like they are followed by an E. As mentioned above, variant 2 is only used in lists of names, including lists of places. So, in your example, I would say, treat Düsseldorf like Duesseldorf. Side note: ß is treated as "ss" in both variants. Here is the link to the website of the Institute for reference (in German though). Zwerg Nase (talk) 12:32, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Gerda, thanks for pointing out DEFAULTSORT. Indeed, I see Duisburg precedes Düsseldorf in Category:University towns in Germany and in de:Kategorie:Deutsche Universitätsstadt. Zwerg Nase, thank you for the explanation and the helpful link. SarahSV (talk) 02:04, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
I'm so sorry that I must oppose to what has been written here. Yes, there are those two standards, but no, for encyclopedias, dictionaries and the like ONLY the first one is ever used. Please treat Düsseldorf as if it read Dusseldorf, as if it had no trema. The ONLY use in practise of the other variant where ü = ue is in telephone directories, so that I will find Herr Max Müller in the telephone book on my first attempt, even if I know him only phonetically, unsure whether he's spelled Mueller or Müller. 2003:EF:BF0:1219:24A7:96A9:8BC3:E6CF (talk) 18:17, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Mein KampfEdit

Gutten tag Team Germany, the mouse over for the book above is incorrect on all pages (cats and links) I cannot find how to correct, cheers121.99.108.78 (talk) 07:28, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Incorrect? Like how? PrussianOwl (talk) 22:34, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
Hi PrussianOwl, If you hover over any (all I have seen so far) of the links to the book (i.e. Category:Books by Adolf Hitler) it says "This is about a German boy who wanted to rule the world and anted everyone to be white with blond hair" which does not tie up with the lead in the article for same, if you can work out how to amend, and find out who edited this link to this mistaken prose, we may need to check anything else they have touched on wiki. Cheers 121.99.108.78 (talk) 07:12, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
I can see in the edit history that it said it for less than a minute – probably only a few seconds – on 23 November after someone made this edit, which was then reverted by ClueBot. If you are still seeing it four days later I wonder if your cache needs clearing or something? I can't be sure, but I suspect that it is not generally being seen, and certainly is not on devices that I use. Oh and that was their only edit so there's something we don't need to worry about, thanks. hth DBaK (talk) 08:20, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

I purged the Cat no effect, purged the article and all good, thanks for help and attention and I learnt something.121.99.108.78 (talk) 09:50, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

New bot to remove completed infobox requestsEdit

Hello! I have recently created a bot to remove completed infobox requests and am sending this message to WikiProject Germany since the project currently has a backlogged infobox request category. Details about the task can be found at Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/PearBOT 2, but in short it removes all infobox requests from articles with an infobox, once a week. To sign up, reply with {{ping|Trialpears}} and tell me if any special considerations are required for the Wikiproject. For example: if only a specific infobox should be detected, such as {{infobox journal}} for WikiProject Academic Journals; or if an irregularly named infobox such as {{starbox begin}} should be detected. Feel free to ask if you have any questions!

Sent on behalf of Trialpears (talk) via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 02:34, 12 December 2019 (UTC)


Home Army Request for Comments: German casualtiesEdit

Talk:Home Army#Request for Comments: German casualties: watchers here may comment.--JoeZ451 (talk) 16:24, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Discussion of interestEdit

Members of the project might be interested in this discussion: Talk:Capital ẞ#Does this symbol need it's own article?.--Ermenrich (talk) 16:26, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Title of the office of "Ministerpräsident" in EnglishEdit

I stumbled over some attempts to translate the title Ministerpräsident. It appears that someone decided to translate it "minister president" or even as a whole Wiki category "ministers president" which is even worse. It is a poor translation and is what native German speakers would call "Denglish".

The office of Ministerpräsident combines the roles and functions of head of government and head of state (sovereignty in Germany resides with the states and is only delegated to the Federation). As such the adequate translation would be "governor".

I would strongly recommend to replace the use of "minister president" and such in all relevant articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mareaustralis (talkcontribs) 20:36, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

The common translation is "minister-president", especially as a title. The Oxford dictionary on my iPhone also gives "prime minister" or "governor", which could be used depending on the context. I might say "Markus Söder is the governor of the German state of Bavaria", if someone in the U.S. were to ask me who he his and I thought "governor" would be the best way to express it. There is no one-size-fits-all translation. Jmar67 (talk) 03:55, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
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