Talk:Poppy seed roll

Page name

Today I moved this article to Kalács, after searching Google Books for names of this pastry: bejgli 129 hits, beigli 648 hits, kalacs 807 hits. --Una Smith (talk) 01:26, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Researching further, I find bejgli and beigli refer also (usually?) to hamantashen and similar cookies baked with a dollop of poppy seed paste on top. --Una Smith (talk) 04:26, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Beigli is what you see in the pictures in this article. Kalács is something different, I was surprised when I saw kalács and beigli were in the same article. I don't know why. They are absolutely different. [1] Here, the third picture is what we call kalács. My English teacher said it was similar to your milkbread, or something. I don't know what milkbread is, in fact. I'll look in this matter, but I need time for it. If you think so, you're welcome to remind me:) Ferike333 (talk) 21:33, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Ferike333 on this; Kalács and Bejgli are different cakes - while kalács is usually unfilled and light in pasture, bejgli is filled and has a thick dough. A simple image search will show the difference. Probably the American-Hungarian cookbook also got it wrong. I'll therefore post a request a move the article back to the name Bejgli, please correct me if I do something wrong. Szirmaik (talk) 23:42, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I see kalács is ambiguous. But so is bejgli; that is why I moved the article to kalács. I did a lot of research on bejgli and while it almost always refers to a pastry with a filling of poppy seed paste, it frequently does not refer to the sliced log, the thing Germans call schnecken (snails). --Una Smith (talk) 15:54, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Kalács is simply the Hungarian word for pastry, also synonymous with cake. There should be no page on the English Wikipedia named as such - you have pastry! Whatever your delicacy is, name it by its proper name, for starters.--Mátyás (talk) 10:47, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to see a reliable source for kalács meaning both pastry and cake. --Una Smith (talk) 03:21, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

I searched Google Books for "dios" and "makos", and found:

• "kalács", "roll cake"[2]
• "beigli", "bagels" [3]
• "kalács", "roll"[4]
• "beigli", "rolls"[5]
• "beiglik", "pastries" sometimes "strudel" (Jewish)[6][7]
• "kalács", "sweet bread roll", "beigli" (slang), "strucla" (Poland)[8]
• "bejgli", "patkó" (1932; horseshoe)[9]
• "kalács", "cake that is made jelly roll fashion"[10]
• "kalács", "tekercs" (scroll)[11]

The picture I am getting is that (1) beigli is Yiddish, and a loanword in Hungarian; (2) kalács has more than one meaning in Hungarian (braided sweet bread, nut roll); (3) strucla has the same two meanings; and (4) the English equivalent of one of these meanings is nut roll. So, in short, I propose to merge this article into Nut roll and do what I can to disentangle the interwiki links. --Una Smith (talk) 04:49, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with that proposal. Beigli is a nut (walnut, poppy-seed, sometimes chestnut) roll. Kalács has many meanings, and while it may refer to beigli in some contexts (e.g., some cookbooks), beigli is not what you'd get if you asked for a loaf of kalács at a Budapest grocery store. vttoth (talk) 13:28, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

as far as i can see, we have basically 2 groups in this discussion, namely (1) hungarians, who can't help knowing what kalács and bejgli are (two different things, though some others saying that one usage of the word 'kalács' is just another hungarian word for 'pastry', might have a point) as they live with them day by day, (2) other folks who are left to google searches, hints by hungarian or almost hungarian friends, dictionaries and guessing. i belong to group (1), so i find it pretty funny to see a page titled KALÁCS with a photo of some BEJGLI (kinda never called KALÁCS, maybe in regions i've never been) linked to a hungarian page titled BEJGLI. if this is a product of merging, then you guys should undo that merging and write a KALÁCS article with the definition and photo of a KALÁCS, which is a spinned and baked bread dough made with milk and a lot of sugar, rather than water and a little sugar, thus sweeter and softer than normal bread. Anapazapa (talk) 18:29, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Requested move 1

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was not done.  Skomorokh  11:54, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

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Kalács → Bejgli — The move done by previous editor is incorrect, the name Kalács belongs to a different type of cake. —Szirmaik (talk) 22:42, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose — per discussion in above section. --Una Smith (talk) 15:55, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Merge proposal

I think this should be merged into nut roll as this article is about beigli (which is about the same as and nut roll), kalács is an entirely different thing. – Alensha ^talk 20:53, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

So when is this page going to be fixed, by a merge or some other means? For what it's worth, Wiktionary got it right. See

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kal%C3%A1cs

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bejgli

Seeing two rolls of "beigli" under the heading "kalács" seems to me just as ridiculous as, say, seeing a person at a desk with a hand-crank calculator under a heading that says "computer". True, technically it is correct, that person is a computer, and 70 years ago "computer" was indeed a profession, not a device; but not today. Possible archaic meanings notwithstanding, I have yet to meet a Hungarian who, when being told about "kalács" without qualifiers (like: "Christmas poppy seed kalács") thinks about what's pictured here as opposed to picturing a loaf of braided egg bread (see, e.g., http://www.cookingnook.com/challah-bread.html), and I have met many Hungarians, on account of me being one of them.--vttoth (talk) 13:50, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Strongly oppose the merge. The two most common types of beigli (which is what this article is about; never mind that it's erroneously titled "Kalács") are walnut and poppy seed. As poppy seed is not a nut, beigli is not a nut roll.

In addition, merging an article called "kalács" with "nut roll" is just ridiculous. The two things have nothing in common, other than being types of sweet breads. It's like merging coffee and cola because both are drinks. Emika22 (talk) 14:26, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

On the other hand, this article is not about kalács, but bejgli, which seems to be the same as not roll (at least the one with nut in it). - Matthew Beta (talk) 16:16, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

I hope it's all right that I've removed the merge proposal. I don't know if the original proposer is supposed to do that or not, but after 3 months the proposal hasn't gotten too much support, so... Emika22 (talk) 18:52, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Kalács is not bejgli

...and I'm going to be bold and change it. Here is what I propose:

1. The text of this page, which is well-written and has good sources, should be moved to the page at Bejgli. Currently, this is a disambiguation page leading to this page Kalács and to Hamantash. Hamantash isn't the same thing as bejgli, although it could be mentioned in a "See Also" section as a similar food.

2. A new page should be created describing kalács ("a type of Hungarian sweet bread commonly eaten at Easter..."). Parts of it can be translated from the Hungarian page at Kalács (sütemény). Links should be included to the articles about Kolacz, Kolache, and Kalach, similarly named foods from other Eastern European countries, along with a clear explanation of the similarities and differences.

3. The proposal to merge either the kalács article or the bejgli article with nut roll should be eliminated.

4. The interwiki links should be repaired.

My plan is to make these changes some time in the next few days, but first I'd like some feedback or suggestions. I'm not sure the best way to go about step one, especially in terms of moving the talk page as well. Or if the talk page should be moved, or left. Any ideas?

Emika22 (talk) 15:03, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Agreed :) - Matthew Beta (talk) 17:13, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 17:30, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

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Kalács → Bejgli — Since the page at Bejgli already exists, I (as a non-administrator) am unable to move this page there. I request that an admin do so, after which I will follow through with the other changes outlined in the section immediately above. In short, this is an good article, just with the wrong title. Thanks in advance! Emika22 (talk) 18:45, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

• Several editors have posited (above) that kalács and bejgli are not the same thing. Any evidence from appropriate sources in favor of the move? — AjaxSmack 03:12, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
• I think the easiest way to show difference between the two - without resorting to learning Hungarian to read cookbooks - is a quick look at Google Images. Searching for kalács will get you numerous pictures of a braided sweet bread. Searching for bejgli will get you images of a rolled, nut- or poppyseed-filled pastry, like the one shown and described in this article. Emika22 (talk) 04:54, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
• http://www.google.com/language_tools can translate to and from Hungarian, but beware the usual errors that automatic translation is heir to. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:51, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
  • Unfortunately Google Translate is usually almost useless with Hungarian because its structure is completely different. - Matthew Beta (talk) 14:18, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
• Support The package of changes the proposer outlines seems to be the best way out of this stodge (sounds a very nice type of stodge, though!). Skinsmoke (talk) 15:42, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
• Support Kalács and bejgli are different and this article is about bejgli! - Matthew Beta (talk) 14:18, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

But the first line says "Polish pastry"

I don't know about Hungarians, but we commonly call it "makowiec" (because its filled with mak - poppy seeds), and I've never heard anyone call this cake "Bejgli". The only word I can think of that sounds alike is "bajgiel" (see english wiki entry on it ) with is also sort of cake, and might contain poppy seeds, but has nothing to do with makowiec. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.76.108.143 (talk) 19:11, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

It was a recent edit by an anonymous account, which I now reverted. vttoth (talk) 15:39, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

"You say 'Beigli', I say 'kalács' ..."

I am not a Hungarian speaker, but my father was from Tatabánya and he used "kalács" for a braided bread, but also called a poppy seed roll "makos kalács". When I used "beigli" - based on a cookbook, he snorted in derision. Clearly "beigli" meant something else, but he never clarified what he thought the difference was. When I made poppy seed roll for friends who came from London's east end they recognised it as "beigli". I don't have any comment about where this should go, but I think we should accept that colloquial usage is not always formal usage and while "kalács" may not be "correct", it isn't exactly "wrong", either.94.195.93.232 (talk) 07:15, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

If you can, do ask what "beigli" means for him. It's quite interesting that he snorted in derision when you mentioned it, but it would be more useful to know why he snorted; it might be a totally personal thing, or... I don't know. Please ask if you can; I'm curious! Emika22 (talk) 20:17, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Makowiec (is this a Hungarian cake?)

I see that Makowiec (pastry) was merged here. That's fine, pictures make it obvious this is the same cake. However, if you look at the old makowiec article, it claims this is a "traditional Polish, Lithuanian and Croatian cake". This claim was removed during the merger. This is problematic - why should the Hungarians have "primacy" with regards to this cake? No source supports it. Unless references are provided that show that this cake originated in Hungary (or Poland, or somewhere else), I'd suggest we rewrite the lead to indicate it is a Slavic / Eastern European cake. This does not solve the problem of what is the correct name in English... any suggestions? We could go with the generic poppy seed roll which the lead suggests. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:15, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Title change proposal

I would like to give this entry a generic title Poppy seed roll which is what the article is about. The original entry about Bejgli was created as a short, one-paragraph (483 bytes) stub on 18 August 2008. Since then, it became something entirely different at over 10 times the size (6,398 bytes). See WP:SPADE for guidance. I will wait a bit for your feedback. — Tatry (talk) 03:42, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Are Makowiec and Bejgli really the same?

I fully admit that my total knowledge about Makowiec comes from a google image search. But even after that single search, it doesn't really seem like Makowiec and Bejgli are the same thing. Namely because Makowiec seems to come in several varieties, some rolled and others not. I think it deserves its own article. Emika22 (talk) 11:10, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Adding... and, I just saw that Makowiec used to be its own article, but it was merged into this one. By the same user who had thought that this page (Beigli) should be called Kalacs. Sigh. What if we just undo the merge, and separate Makowiec again, and someone who knows anything about it could expand it a bit? Emika22 (talk) 11:14, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

• Makowiec is always rolled and thus indistinguishable from any other poppy seed roll, which Beigli is. However, cakes other than Makowiec can also be made with ground poppy seeds, like any placek z makiem I suppose. That, however, does not change a thing. The article about Beigli can be revived or created from scratch once the issue of the parent article is resolved. — Tatry (talk) 02:18, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Joy [shallot] (talk) 01:35, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

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Bejgli → Poppy seed roll – As several editors have pointed out above, this article is about a generic type of a cake. The move towards the Hungarian one was undue (this is unfair towards the other local variants, and it is not the name this type of cake is known to most English speakers, anyway). The move to poppy seed roll is with no prejudice towards eventual split and (re)creation of articles on national varieties, if enough material is collated to warrant such a split. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 16:50, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

• It would be definitely better to call it poppy seed roll, if it's indeed known in several other countries (I was not aware of that). Also, poppy seed roll is much easier to pronounce for an English speaker.
  Not all cakes of this type are made with poppy seed, nut is almost equally common but "poppy seed or nut roll" would sound odd and poppy seed rolls are maybe a little more common than nut rolls anyway. (Just don't call it kalács, as that's a completely different cake.) – Alensha ^talk 17:07, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

• Support - Well moving it to "Makowiec" would make as much sense as keeping it/moving it to "Bejgli". "Poppy seed roll" is probably the best that can be done, even though there are some variations that deviate from the basic recipe. Volunteer Marek  18:50, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
• Support per above. GreyHood ^Talk 19:16, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
• Support agree with nom.--♫Greatorangepumpkin♫_Hey^{it's me} 13:15, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
• "poppy+seed+roll"&tbs=bks:1 "poppy seed roll" book search - ~520 results; "bejgli"&tbs=bks:1 "bejgli" book search - ~122 results. In several months after this was raised on talk, nobody provided any sort of contrary opinion. This is a no-brainer, I'm moving it (WP:SNOW). --Joy [shallot] (talk) 01:32, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

More info required

This article requires more information in regards to countries where it is served and the origins of the food.

Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.237.59.2 (talk) 16:37, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Merge tag

Please see Talk:Nut_roll#Merge_tag. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 12:24, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

New merge/ split/ sort discussion beginning 30 Nov

Nut rolls are a set of pastries.

Several (well, many but probably not most) of those have walnuts as a filling.

One of these (many recipes, it appears that there is no single recipe that's being riffed on) is also made with a ground poppy seed (or poppy seed) filling that is sweetened (with honey, fruit, it varies.) There are commercial poppy seed fillings that are sometimes used.

A walnut roll made with the same dough as the poppy seed roll is traditionally served with the poppy seed roll; the pair are called in Hungarian (according to A Blessing of Bread, p 148) beiglik (the plural of beigli) and others. This distinguishes this particular kind of walnut roll from other walnut rolls.

Since this particular pair of breads is more commonly known by the rarer poppy seed filling, I think it's appropriate to retain the information about the walnut member of the pair in this article, rather than sending readers off to wander in Nut roll, where this information would become difficult to find.

Hungarian and other bakers please correct me .... htom (talk) 02:30, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

From the point of view of a person looking up "walnut roll", would you agree that sending them here would be just as confusing if they were thinking of another kind of walnut roll? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 08:23, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Until there's enough information and coherence in /nut roll/ to split /walnut roll/ into its own article, my opinion is that /walnut roll/ should redirect to /nut roll/, AND that there should be a link in /nut roll # walnut roll/ like "(see also /poppy seed roll/)"; this does not mean that the content at /poppy seed roll/ having to do with walnuts should be removed from /poppy seed roll/. (Harsh opinion: I think that sending anyone to nut roll unless they've looked for "nut roll" would leave them confused at the moment; that article needs a lot of work. Merging the well-organized and topical information here, into that mess there, will help neither article. When (I'll assume) nut roll gets better, that's still not a reason to remove information from here. Should we remove information about butter or yeast from this article, because there are articles about butter, and about yeast?) htom (talk) 23:24, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Oppose. No, nut roll and Poppy seed roll are two different rolls - or set of cakes. Hafspajen (talk) 03:01, 21 January 2014 (UTC)