Talk:Olivier Messiaen

Interim thoughts...

Two thoughts: firstly, can we have a citation for 'The "end of time" of the title ... also refers to the way in which Messiaen, through rhythm and harmony, used time in a way completely different from the music of his contemporaries'? Not that I doubt it, but without a citation it look perilously like OR. Secondly, we don't seem to have any audio clips. Presumably all his music is still copyrighted, but I think we have ample justification for some short fair use clips. I would do them myself, but I don't know which bits would be best. Mark¹ 13:04, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Mark. I will try and dig out my reference to the bit you mention and add it. Please go ahead with the audio clips if you can! Unfortunately I do not have the technology. Any sound clips could probably be woven nicely into the article. I have some ideas for what would be appropriate - obviously details will depend on which recordings are available to you!

In case you were actually offering to do some clips (!), here are my suggestions. I wouldn't include more than one item from each of these five categories: (a) something to illustrate pre-Tristan modes and additive rhythms, such as the opening of Danse de fureur from the Quatuor, but anything from the Quatour or Préludes would probably be equally good, (b) an example of his idiomatic organ style, either the opening of the final toccata section of Dieu parmi nous from La Nativité, or the opening of Transports de joie from L'Ascension, (c) something from Turangalîla, possibly his most popular work, say the opening of Joie du sang des etoiles, (d) birdsong from his full maturity: I would choose the beginning or the end of L'oiseau-lyre et la ville-fiancée from Éclairs sur l'au delà, or a clip from one of the piano solo movements from Des canyons aux étoiles…, or an excerpt from any birdsong episode from Catalogue d'oiseaux - the most obvious choice for the latter would be, I suppose, the opening of Le loriot, (e) something serial or avant garde from the fifties or sixties - like a bit of Modes de valeurs et d'intensités, or something from Livre d'orgue or Méditations. Finally, at least one clip should probably feature piano, since that was his main medium. There, I don't ask much :-) --RobertG ♬ talk 16:29, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I've added clips from a) the Quatour, c) and d) Le loriot at what seemed to me plausible points. You might want to reformat or redistribute them, though. Mark¹ 17:16, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Excellent! - although I don't have the technology to listen to them! I think where you've placed them is ideal. I've added the citation you requested. --RobertG ♬ talk 09:20, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I've added b), the opening of Transports de joie, formatted it in a manner similar to what Mark did. I have Latry's and Messiaen's recordings of Livre d'orgue and Latry's Méditations, so if you can give me an exact indication of what part of the piece you want for e) (as I am no expert and I won't be able to determine which part illustrates serialism/avant-garde style best), I'll do a sample of that as well. Jashiin 14:29, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Oh and speaking of photographs, I have this one movie about Messiaen which has a lot of interviews. I could make some screenshots, but I'm not sure whether they would be fair use - they are according to the Wiki policy, but in the beginning of the movie there's a notice that no part of the production can be used anywhere without permission, so I'm in doubt. Jashiin 14:32, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Fair use is not dependent on permission, so that notice has no effect AFAIK. However, we already have one fair use picture of him, so I'd find it hard to justify adding another one. Mark^{your words} 17:14, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I was thinking of pictures of him with his students, Yvonne Loriod playing, shots from the performance of Saint-François d'Assise, etc. Anyway, RobertG responded on my talk page and he reckons it'd be copyright infringement to add screenshots from documentaries. Jashiin 17:51, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

"L'âme en bourgeon" translation

An anon contributor has changed the translation of L'âme en bourgeon from "the burgeoning soul" to "the flowering soul", but isn't en bourgeon more embryonic than "flowering"? Isn't the idea that the soul hasn't flowered yet rather the point? I propose putting it back to "the burgeoning soul" or, possibly, "the budding soul". What do others think? Any bilingual Wikipedians paying attention?! --RobertG ♬ talk 14:52, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Ideally, I'd go with "burgeoning", "budding" or even "emerging". "Flowering" doesn't have the same sense of nascence, i.e. "flowering" is a further stage of development. However, "The Flowering Soul" is the more common translation of this book. Pinkville 15:24, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

List of compositions

Why has the list of compositions been moved? The article is a featured article, and I do not understand why it has been unilaterally chopped up. --RobertG ♬ talk 11:33, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I thought so too - and my attempt to make a start on restoring some of the compositions to make a "landmark" list was swiftly expunged. OK I'm not a rigorous "encyclopedic" writer but I was hoping rather for it to be seen as a start and develop to a consensus list ! (The editor who chopped out the list did seem to ask for something to take it's place in his comment.) Johnrcrellin 14:32, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I agree somewhat. I for one don't like huge lists in featured articles, however I do think there should be a list of particularly important compositions, and I appreciate Johnrcrellin's attempt to make one, and don't really understand why the whole thing was removed without attempting to simply change the adjective used. There are going to be some works by a composer which have a greater impact on the world than others, and I think those should be acknowledged. Mak (talk) 17:16, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry everyone, but after much thought about what to do I have respectfully, but boldly, put the compositions back. Here are my reasons.

1. It's a featured article. While I recognise that WP:FA? criteria 2b and 5 are in conflict, I think an almost-complete list is better than no list, and the article gained featured status with the list in place
2. The article claimed that the list linked to was a "full list", which is not quite true
3. A small proportion of Messiaen's compositions are insignificant in context, and as the text of the article makes clear nearly all his compositions include some innovation. I don't think a replacement selective list can be formulated without the contributor making some personal value judgements, unless s/he does a ton of research (in journals I don't have access to and certainly don't have time for). This is the main reason, I suspect, that the only editor to attempt a replacement had his effort summarily removed
4. Information was lost in the move, mainly its references.
5. An outline of "most significant" works would duplicate information that is in the article already, making an onerous requirement to restructure the whole article
6. Finally I think the article simply underwent an alarming change of perspective and quality when the reader got to "Works"

If anyone can write a referenced, npov, section outlining the "most significant" works then I have absolutely no objection, but please write the section first and replace the list with it, rather than just removing the list and then saying "someone needs to write something here". --RobertG ♬ talk 16:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

On a sidenote, I'd like to ask on what basis compositions are put in the "unpublished" list. There is at least one old recording of "Fêtes des belles eaux", would that be possible if the work was indeed unpublished? Also, the piece for ondes Martenot and string quartet appears on the "Inédits" CD, which would indicate it was unpublished. (or maybe calling the CD "Inédits" instead of "seldom heard pieces" was just a marketing ploy?) 213.118.62.210 02:41, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I can't speak to the specifics works here (does the whole list, or most, derive from one source?), however published pieces generally refers to the music -- ie the score and/or parts -- being "in print", and thus widely available for performance & study, rather than the piece being recorded, even if the recording is commercially available. There's plenty of "unpublished" music out there that you can dig up a recording of, not to mention bootleg tapes & such of concert recordings of pieces that never saw a second performance, never mind print distribution...Of course in the age of Sibelius these distinctions are starting to become less meaningful...

However, I notice that the "Quadruple concerto" mentioned at the end of the bio section isn't on either list. What's up w/ that? —Turangalila ^talk 10:30, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

According to the sleevenotes of the DG/Chung CD of the "Concert à Quatre", it was published by Alphonse Leduc, Paris. Since its orchestration was finished by Yvonne Loriod and George Benjamin, I imagine this publishing would have happened after Messiaen's death. The sleevenotes to the recording of the "Fetes de Belles Eaux" that I have does not mention a publisher, but then it doesn't mention a publisher for the other works on the disc either. Btw, I find it strange to have seperate lists for compositions published/unpublished during his lifetemine, but then not distinguishing between lost, unpublished and posthumously published. And also, Robert Sherlaw Johnson's book lists some more unpublished (esp. early) works; is there a reason why not all are listed here? 213.118.60.150 20:16, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Probably not everyone has the source handy. Either way, if you do have it then please be bold and help complete the list; preferably supplying page cites, enclosed in "<ref>" and "</ref>" tags. —Turangalila _talk 01:44, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

The two lists were intended to distinguish compositions "published with Messiaen's compliance" and those "not…" The former are found in most published lists of his compositions. Messiaen made no great attempt, it appears, to promote the latter. The Quadruple Concerto and Éclairs… were, of course, published posthumously; I think it is generally accepted, however, that Messiaen intended them for publication. It would be misleading, I think, to put La dame de Shallott, Fêtes des belles eaux or Timbres-durées on the same level. I changed the lists' titles accordingly. I hope it is clearer now. --RobertG II ♬ talk 15:56, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Shouldn't it be [mɛsjɛ̃] instead of [mɛsjɔ̃]? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Apus (talk • contribs) August 7 2006. -- rather not; [mɛsjɔ̃] seens to be the correct French pronociation; this is how I normally hear it in Paris.

I do believe this is an important question; but can someone please explain the difference for those of use who are inexpert in IPA, and who are not native French speakers? --RobertG ♬ talk 10:07, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

According to IPA_chart_for_English, disregarding the nasalisation, and in general American English terms, the first vowel is the one in 'bed', and the second is the one in 'caught'. I can't say how he's pronounced in French, but I've always heard the second version from English speakers. Henry^Flower 10:48, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

hmm... I've always heard the first version (i.e. [mɛsjɛ̃]), from both English and French speakers... I think there's a little tendency in US English (but probably not in UK or Canadian English) to change French [ɛ̃] to [ɔ̃]. I think the page should probably have [mɛsjɛ̃] --128.148.123.85 19:09, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, there, I personally say (and have always heard in France) [mɛsjɑ̃]. 84.102.67.203 09:26, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

The last anonymous contributor here has it right, I believe. I have heard only [mɛsjɑ̃] from French-speaking musicians. I have not heard a speaker of Canadian French utter the word. Of course there is a very common leaning towards [mɛsjɛ̃] among English speakers, because we know that [ɛ̃] is frequently a pronunciation of "en", as in "bien" and many other words. (I used to say it that way myself, I confess.) Certainly [mɛsjɔ̃] is wrong: [ɔ̃] is not an accepted pronunciation of "en". I am therefore now putting [mɛsjɑ̃] in the article. In the end, one wonders how much any of this can help readers, since most of them (and most of "us", too) are not adept at IPA. – Noetica 23:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

If someone could make a pronunciation file, it'd help quite a bit, I'm sure. A-giau 19:19, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

List of students

I disagree that the list of students is irrelevant to the article, and have tagged each article with {{mergeto}} and {{mergefrom}}, respectively. Other articles about significant musicians or others in the music industry have link or lists of those whose careers they've influenced. Care to discuss your reasoning with me? Thanks! - CobaltBlueTony 18:03, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't argue that the list of pupils is entirely irrelevant. If I thought that I'd have boldly deleted them from Wikipedia altogether! I merely think that a long list of pupils is inappropriate for the lead paragraph, and that the direction it was potentially going in was the addition to the article of anyone who studied with Messiaen, however briefly or notably. I feel that his students Boulez (who was perhaps his most prominent champion, and who both commissioned works and arranged first performances), Loriod (obviously) and Benjamin (who has been closely associated with Messiaen's music, and who even helped complete one of his works) are definitely worth mentioning in the lead. However I even have my doubts about whether Stockhausen and Xenakis belong in the lead. I think Stockhausen and Xenakis should certainly be mentioned in the body of the article because they serve as examples of how Messiaen encouraged his students to find their own voices rather than imposing his own ideas. But what does the bare fact of his teaching of William Bolcom, Tristan Murail, Theodorakis (or Alexander Goehr or Karel Goeyvaerts for that matter) add to what we know about Messiaen? If it adds something, then we should be able to say what it is in each case. Otherwise we will end up with an indiscriminate list (edit summary: "if you can add Betsy Jolas then I can add Pia Sebastiani and Raffi Ourgandjian") - until we reach entirely non-notable Messiaen pupils. I think the place for such a list is in a separate list article (which is why I started one), not in an encyclopedia article about their teacher. --RobertG ♬ talk 12:41, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

In the lead paragraph, I'd only mention two or three of the notable students, but a list near the end of the article, perhaps just before references (maybe even a subset of a "See Also" section) of ONLY notable students is, I think, entirely appropriate. - CobaltBlueTony 15:32, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Am I looking for difficulties where I needn't? I don't think it's a big issue. It's just that Messiaen had mentor relationships of varying "intensity" with so many notable musicians, not all of them formal "students", that I foresee difficulties keeping the list trimmed! I really think an indiscriminate list would be too much. If the list is not to be indiscriminate then someone has to decide which musicians are notable enough to be included here, and how much tuition qualifies, and this must be WP:OR. This doesn't matter so much if the list is kept separately from the article, which is featured. Does anyone else have a view? --RobertG ♬ talk 16:32, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I support a merge, especially because the list is not very long (and I doubt it will ever be extremely long) and can therefore easily be integrated into the main article; of the eight names on it, five are already mentioned in the first paragraph of this article. The best solution, in my opinion, would be to create a new section in the Messiaen article about his work as a teacher and explain what influence his harmony and composition classes had. That is a more useful way to present information than a list. Skarioffszky 11:23, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

(reset margin) I would definitely support Skarioffszky's solution: fold the names into the article text, esp. as most are already there. Something should be decided soon, though: the merge notice is an eyesore. At the least the merge template should be moved in the source text above the picture--I think that would make it display more normally. I can't do it because my old browser cuts off long pages in the edit box so I would destroy the article.—Turangalila ^talk 10:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

The article on spectralism mentions Messiaen as a pre-spectralist because of the resonant chords using the harmonic series as a basis for harmony, and I suggest mentioning his teaching Tristan Murail in this context.213.118.63.119 23:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

"…I doubt [the list] will ever be extremely long" (Skarioffszky) and "…most are already there" (Turangalila): I have recently, after very little research, extended the list to 61 names. --Ferstel 11:25, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Merge proposal

The merge of the students into the Olivier Messiaen article seems like a good idea. Badagnani 08:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it's not such a good idea (see discussion immediately above). I'd like to be convinced: why do you think it's a good idea? --RobertG ♬ talk 10:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm voting for merging the list, not into the text, but as section in the article. I'll stop short of trying to convince anyone. It clearly doesn't belong in the lead, but it isn't a "long list" either. --CKL

Great article!

Hi, I just wanted to say this is a fantastic article! I’ve learned a great deal from it. Many thanks to all of you. S.dedalus 06:20, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I also wanted to add my congrats to all involved on another great composer Featured Article! We need more of these. I'm just starting to delve into his works and have loved everything I've heard so far. He was brilliant and had a fascinating life. Good work everybody, and thanks so much. Groove1279 12:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Indeed; this is a beautiful article. El Staplador (talk) 10:24, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Excellent work, thanks for this article and all the work that went into it. Calicocat (talk) 04:15, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Surname

What is the etymology/origin of his surname? Badagnani (talk) 02:38, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

"Selected discography"

Discographies on Wikipedia cannot be complete, and if they are not complete then they are necessarily selective: and the selection criteria usually depend on original research. Selected by whom? Even if it's just organ recordings, who says Thiry's are more notable than, say, Bates's or Weir's or Messiaen's own? I respectfully submit that Wikipedia composer articles are not the place for discographies, selected or otherwise. --RobertG ♬ talk 08:39, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

It's Messiaen himself who wrote about Louis Thiry : «Louis Thiry is an extraordinary organist. An accomplished virtuose, an-allround musician, with unequalled memory and skill : he may be classed among the heroes of music (he has given several fine performances of my most difficult organ works -in particular my “Messe de la Pentecôte”). All those who have heard and all those who will hear Louis Thiry can but admire him.»Orlov Herne (talk) 14:35, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

• It's probably worth coming up with a protocol for this, starting with the known authorities like Gramophone and Radio 3. A recording shortlisted for Radio 3's Building A Library is likely to qualify for inclusion in a selected discography. But I absolutely agree that there is a long-term issue of people adding their favourite (or latest, in the case of some record companies) recording, and periodic review of the lists is definitely warranted. I'd better check out Gerald Moore, hadn't I? Guy (Help!) 12:52, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

"Percussionists' repertoire" link

I have received representation asking that the link at Bell Percussion Ltd listing "The percussion repertoire of Olivier Messiaen" be reinstated, as it is "not a commercial link" but a "wholly separate part" of the website (notwithstanding the links and adverts). Its being part of a commercial website was only one of several criteria I considered when removing it. I was not the first to remove it, and I still feel that it does not meet the WP:EL criteria, but others may differ. Only six Messiaen works are listed. In any case, I feel it definitely should not be the top external link! Does anyone else have a view? --RobertG ♬ talk 16:41, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

RE: Messiaen Repertiore link

As a former London conservatoire percussion student and teacher I have to say that I cannot see why the “Percussionist’s repertoire” link should not be included. I find this area of the Bell Percussion Ltd website an invaluable resource and to be able to obtain freely available but sometimes awkward to find information in a single website section, extremely helpful. Not only is this section accurate (unlike some other percussion requirement lists!) but it delves deeper into the requirements such as the octave range requirements of some of the mallet instruments and where necessary gong and tubular bell pitches as well. Clearly this has been well researched and collated by percussionists who themselves have played the pieces listed. In this Messiaen ‘year’ I personally and indeed countless others will require this resource when organising the plethora of Messiaen percussion sections that will be fixed. The preceding length of time that each orchestra will receive the publishers score and parts varies based on the organisation. However to have the percussion requirement information potentially months before the first rehearsal is incredibly useful and more and more vital as the complexity of the modern percussion repertoire increases.

I understand your point that the website has a commercial element but the education and reference sections take equal billing. As a dabbler in web site design this organisation will be unlikely to have control over the bars that run down the right hand side of the site due the site construction restrictions. Personally I’m not interested in the commercial bars on the right. If I want to buy something then I’ll click the shop button – a completely different area. This is a relatively small and unique industry and those who do enter the ‘Perc World’ section or the ‘Repertoire’ section of this site do so for a reason – education and knowledge. The information and the whole aim of the inclusion in my view, does meet the spirit and criteria of WP. Interestingly I have not found this specialist information (of which there are twelve peices, not six as stated) anywhere on any of the links that are included in this Messiaen entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boniver (talk • contribs) 19:51, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Well done

Congratulations to those who got this article to FA status for the centenary. I think Messiaen's reputation for being difficult to listen to is undeserved, and hopefully this article will attract new listeners to try his music. Guy (Help!) 12:49, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Ditto! Cmadler (talk) 15:03, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I think it's a little low on inline citations. There are paragraphs and sections, which don't have inline citations. Although I do believe that it's okay when talking about the dynamics within a piece of music etc, as the piece itself is the reference. Jolly Ω Janner 15:15, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Carl-Albert_Brüll

Messiaen's German benefactor while he was imprisoned has extensive pages in German and Spanish. It's a pity not to link to them, but I'm not sure that I've done it properly given that it's Wikipedia on a different URL. 59.167.161.132 (talk) 10:04, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Note on cites

Robert, for the sake of it only, and to satisfy a fairly random criteria imo, can you add cites to the end of the following:

• the Time section. [done]
• In 1962 his travels took him to Japan, where Gagaku music and Noh theatre inspired the orchestral "Japanese sketches", Sept haïkaï, which contain stylised imitations of traditional Japanese instruments. [done]
• However, very few of these major works lack new technical ideas—simple examples being the introduction of communicable language in Meditations, the invention of a new percussion instrument (the geophone) for Des canyons aux etoiles..., and the freedom from any synchronisation with the main pulse of individual parts in certain birdsong episodes of St. François d'Assise. [done]
• Messiaen also used the concept of "chromatic durations", for example in his Soixante-quatre durées from Livre d'orgue, ( listen (help·info)) which assigns a distinct duration to 64 pitches ranging from long to short and low to high, respectively. [done]
• Thats it. Ceoil (talk) 14:07, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I will. I am currently a bit busy in Real Life™, but I promise I'll get to it when I can, this week if possible. Thank you, Ceoil. --RobertG ♬ talk 16:56, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Had some time; more will follow in due course. I changed the "low-to-high" bit (don't remember writing that, maybe someone else added it?) to include a direct quote of Messiaen's description. --RobertG ♬ talk 19:07, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Robert, one of the unfortuniate things about this is that nobody expects FAR, it just happens to jump you, inconviently usually. It is a rough and often insulting process, but my openion is that the gold star brings readers and that is worth fighting for - we are all writing about our passions. I am very pleased you are up for citing the bits and pieces asked; this is a page I want to hold up to others and say - 'look at what we can do'. Ceoil (talk) 23:08, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

• Messiaen later introduced what he called a "communicable language", a "musical alphabet" to encode sentences. Ceoil (talk) 20:24, 14 May 2010 (UTC) [done]
  • That's in the score of Meditations. It'll certainly be in a book too, though. --RobertG ♬ talk 20:49, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Over to you, Ceoil? --RobertG ♬ talk 07:50, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

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Pronunciation question again

Yeah, there's that debate and variation (depending on who's speaking) about pronouncing the final syllable to rhyme with either dans or vin. But there's another queston entirely: I have heard most speakers (and granted I don't recall that any of them were French), almost universally drag out the last part of his name into two distinct syllables, so that rather than rhyming with bien or vian[de] (minus the de), it rhymes with et dans or et vins, if you catch my drift. I don't know why this is, or if it's correct, but I just heard the announcer for the Concertgebouw, who pronounced all of the other French names and words in his commentary perfectly, do this same thing, making the last part of the name rhyme with et dans rather than with (as implied in our current IPA spelling) vian[de]. In other words, not a (nonsyllabic) Y sound at all, in fact, almost an (English) A sound. As if the spelling were "Messaien" or "Messaian" or "Messayen" or something (I can't actually think of a spelling that would best replicate it).

Anyone care to comment on this issue? Is the last name supposed to be two syllables or three? Softlavender (talk) 07:41, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Two syllables, according to the source cited in the French Wikipedia article: [1]. It thus rhymes with patient. I wouldn't be surprised if even some native French speakers mispronounced it; the spelling is indeed unusual. Olivier's father was born in French Flanders, and in Flemish it would be pronounced [mɛsian], but that was long before the time of the composer. Lesgles (talk) 23:17, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, thanks very much, that makes it very clear; rhyming with the last syllable of the French patient. Softlavender (talk) 00:13, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

A glaring weakness

Considering this is a featured article, I find myself surprised that there is (unless I overlooked it) no section discussing the reception of Messiaen's music by audiences and critics. There is some information on awards/ranks scattered across the article, but nothing beyond that. Messiaen is one of the most venerated post-war composers, so I don't see why anybody should wish to gloss over this topic.—Toccata quarta (talk) 17:41, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

A good point well made. If you have access to any reliable sources describing the reception of Messiaen's music, by all means please add the information. Thank you for suggesting it. RobertG ♬ talk 06:50, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

And while you are about it, don't forget that reception theory is by no means restricted to considering audiences and critics; neither should it disregard the demographics of those two categories (French audiences, for example, in contrast to those of other nations; young audiences in the 1980s compared to older ones in the 1930s, etc.). The reception by other composers, by philosophers, by theologians, by psychoacousticians, and so on is as important, if not more so, than audiences and critics, especially where the snap judgments made at world premieres are concerned (however diverting and instructive these may be).—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:09, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

I should add that the literature on Messiaen reception is vast, and should be consulted before trying to recreate it from the ground up. Here are a few items to be getting on with:

• Adamenko, Victoria. 2007. Neo-mythologism in Music: From Scriabin and Schoenberg to Schnittke and Crumb. Interplay, No. 5. Hillsdale, NY: Pendragon Press. ISBN 1-57647-125-X.
• Broad, Stephen. 2007. "Messiaen: Poetics, Polemics and Politics". Scottish Music Review 1, no. 1. (Online journal)
• Christiaens, Jan. 2004. "Messiaen's Theological Music and the Claims of Modernism". In Horror novitatis, edited by Petr Macek and Mikuláš Bek, 135–39. Colloquia musicologica brunensia 37. Prague: KLP: Koniasch Latin Press. ISBN 80-86791-19-X.
• Feisst, Sabine. 2006. "Werke im Zweiten Weltkrieg: Olivier Messiaen—Quatuor pour la fin du temps". In Geschichte der Musik im 20. Jahrhundert: 1925–1945, edited by Albrecht Riethmüller, Michael Custodis, Friedrich Geiger, Guido Heldt, and Julia Hartmann, 277–83. Handbuch der Musik im 20. Jahrhundert, No. 2. Laaber: Laaber-Verlag. ISBN 3-89007-422-7.
• Giroud, Vincent. 2010. French Opera: A Short History. New Haven and London: Yale University Press. ISBN 0-300-11765-5. Includes a discussion of the reception of Saint François d'Assise.
• Kämper, Dietrich. 2004. "Olivier Messiaen und die musikalische Avantgarde der fünfziger Jahre: Zur Rezeption der Etüde 'Mode de valeurs et d'intensités'". In Kompositorische Stationen des 20. Jahrhunderts: Debussy, Webern, Messiaen, Boulez, Cage, Ligeti, Stockhausen, Höller, Bayle, edited by Christoph von Blumröder and Tobias Hünermann, 24–34. Signale aus Köln 7. Münster: Lit Verlag. ISBN 3-8258-7212-2.
• Shenton, Andrew (ed.). 2010. Messiaen the Theologian. Farnham: Ashgate. ISBN 0-7546-6640-9. Contains thirteen papers, mostly centred on reception.
• Wassermann Beirão, Christine (ed.). 2006. La cité céleste: Olivier Messiaen zum Gedächtnis—Dokumentation einer Symposienreihe. Berlin: Weidler. ISBN 3-89693-473-2. The articles in this book are mainly concerned with reception, including: Pascal Decroupet, "Olivier Messiaen und die serielle Musik", Rudolf Frisius, "Im Brennpunkt musikalischer Traditionen: Olivier Messiaen und die Musik des 20. Jahrhunderts" Rūta Goštautienė, "Olivier Messiaen und Litauen: Parallelen, Kontakte, Rezeption", Juris Grinevics, "Rezeption der Musik Olivier Messiaens in Lettland", Martina Homma, "Olivier Messiaen und die 'Darmstädter Schule'", Jarema Jakubjak, "Rezeption der Werke Olivier Messiaens in der Ukraine", Ewa Kofin, "Die Rezeption der Musik Olivier Messiaens im Nachkriegs-Breslau", Ivan Marton, "Rezeption der Werke Olivier Messiaens in der Slowakei nach dem Zweiten Weltkrieg", Irina Nikolska, "Rezeption der Werke Olivier Messiaens in der Sowjetunion und in Russland", and Milan Slavický, "Die Messiaen-Rezeptionsgeschichte in Tschechien".

I wish I had the time to sort through all this myself, and I hope others may have the time and find this list useful.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:53, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

References

I notice that this article was promoted to FA-status in 2006 and had a FAR in 2010. Problems regarding verifiability were raised there and dealt with, but I believe that some of them still remain. These are the paragraphs that do not appear to have (enough) references:

• "Youth and studies"

Paragraphs 3 and 4

• "La Trinité, La jeune France, and Messiaen's war"

Paragraphs 1, 3 and 4

• "Tristan and serialism"

Paragraphs 2, 3 and 4

• "Birdsong and the 1960s"

Paragraph 4

• "Transfiguration, Canyons, St. Francis, and the Beyond"

All paragraphs

• "Music"

Paragraphs 1, 2 and 4. The lone reference in the 3rd paragraph does not look very convincing, judging by how it relates to the text.

• "Western artistic influences"

All paragraphs.

• "Symmetry"

This section is unsourced and rather "stubbyish".

• "Pitch"

• "Time and rhythm"

Paragraphs 1 and 2

• "Harmony"

Paragraphs 2 and 3

• "Birdsong"

• "Works"

I'm not sure what the approach to providing references for sections like this is, but I think "The technique of my musical language" should be "The Technique of my Musical Language". Toccata quarta (talk) 18:25, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

If you mean that English titles should be capitalized according to the conventions for English titles then, yes, obviously. I wonder why the English edition of this book is nowhere mentioned in the article, though. This translation is given as if it is merely a convenience for the reader who has no French (exactly the same as for the Traité de rythme, de couleur, et d'ornithologie).—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:55, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Hidden comments

The problem with hidden comments along the lines of "Don't add an infobox because a WikiProject doesn't like them" is that it has a chilling effect on editors who don't understand that Wikiprojects have no standing to demand that an infobox may not be added. The decision on having an infobox or not is a matter for consensus on each article, and that is policy. If there has already been a discussion on a particular article, and a consensus reached not to have an infobox, then it is helpful to have an html comment drawing the editor's attention to that (possibly archived) discussion, and I'd be very much in favour of maintaining such notes. That is, however, not the situation here, as I can find no previous discussion of an infobox on this article. It is not acceptable to have a note which effectively prevents any consensus from being discussed, as if the matter were already settled by fiat of a single editor or Wikiproject. We build this encyclopedia by allowing people to edit, not forbidding it for no good reason. --RexxS (talk) 19:34, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

First we were told that failure to have a hidden comment made it hard for editors to know not to add an infobox. Now you say that the hidden comment has a "chilling effect." The fact is that you just want to have a pile of code at the top of every article containing redundant infobox information, even in these arts biographies, usually riddled with errors and always emphasizing unimportant factoids at the expense key information. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:53, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Er... I appreciate that you both are having this conversation in multiple venues, but the note on this particular article actually doesn't say "don't add an infobox because a WikiProject doesn't like them"; it says "before adding please read discussion and post to talk". Now, you might not agree with even that, but it is to my mind an important difference, and explicitly encourages discussion of the matter. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:17, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Is there any reason why this discussion is taking place in a gazillion places? I don't really have the time to copy and paste all of my numerous responses to the many more, numerous articles. Cassianto^Talk 08:09, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Olivier Messiaen 1930.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 10:53, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Footnotes

I don't exactly know how to address this issue exactly.

Information about the births and deaths of Messiaen's parents (and brother) were initially added by myself to the page, however they were reverted by User:Nikkimaria. I then tried to re-add them as footnotes, only for them to not be "warranted for inclusion".

Could I please ask why such a reversion happened?

Either way, please be aware I am drafting an article for Pierre Messiaen.

Thanks

MarcelDupré1886 (talk) 14:37, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

I see that fr.wiki has both Pierre Messiaen and Cécile Sauvage. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:43, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

We can certainly include information about these people in articles about them. But this article is not about them, and it's not clear why this information warrants inclusion here. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:00, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Also not sure. Yes, they were French. Yes, they were born in France. Their deaths may have been significant to Messiaen, but that would warrant distinct mention(s), and possibly regardless of the exact date(s). Martinevans123 (talk) 22:12, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Following on from the above, many thanks for your contributions, User:MarcelDupré1886 (talk · contribs), here. I am going to suggest reversing a few of them, I hope that doesn't upset anyone. Please feel free to discuss it, I'm not asserting that I'm right and you're wrong!

• The list of his pupils in the lead doesn't need expanding; we already have List of students of Olivier Messiaen (which is linked from the lead). The lead is supposed to be a summary of the article, and the article doesn't mention Chen, Jolas, or Darasse.
• Does one "become faculty"? I thought "gained a teaching post" was better (and from memory, that's what the ref says).
• Did he consciously adopt his trademark spectacles at the Conservatoire as a sartorial statement? Would need a ref.
• It isn't relevant to Messiaen who his teacher's brother was.
• Insertion of occasional deputising for Tournemire would a) need a ref and b) detached the succeeding sentence's "the post became vacant", so that the reader loses orientation and had to cast around to be clear what post it was talking about.
• That he paid musical tributes to his mother needs refs (but if the entry were more specific, I would definitely find it interesting).
• The bits about those posthumously published works were a bit too vague: when did he write them? They weren't published, so are they important enough to the narrative to be mentioned specially?
• I think his transcription of L'Ascension belongs chronologically where it was before, alongside his other contemporaneous multi-movement organ works.
• Is Claire Delbos's birth name important here? It's the first thing you see if you follow the link to her article!
• That 'Mi' was short for 'amie', and is derived from the note E both need a ref? Adding this where you did makes it seem it's in the Sherlaw Johnson ref, but I don't think it is?
• Not sure I understand what 'slowly going insane' means? (Someone else must have had a similar reservation, as it has since been modified to the equally vague 'slipping into mental instability'.) I've removed it. Perhaps loss of memory makes it clear enough.
• I thought Pascal's birth and Claire's loss of memory read more naturally all together in the same paragraph about his domestic happiness and its unravelling.
• Delbos's miscarriages would need a ref.
• That Boulanger was "Messiaen's rival" would need a ref.
• I find it more relevant to the paragraph (and more enlightening to an uninformed reader) that Livre du Saint Sacrement is a major collection of organ pieces than that it's his last organ work (which you could see from the list of compositions).
• Correct that Messiaen was "not generally a serialist composer", but I think this is clear from the preceding sentence: I have strengthened that by replacing "some compositions" with "a few compositions", which I think is better.

I hope all this makes sense and seems logical and well expressed. Thanks again. --RobertG ♬ talk 16:58, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Hi Robert,

1) I think it's at least better to mention Qigang Chen, he's one of the most famous present-day Chinese composers. He was also his last student.

2) Fair enough.

3) Hill-Simeone: Messiaen

4) It may interest you because Noël Gallon was also a teacher of Messiaen's

5) (from memory). I'm unsure, you were most likely right to withdraw it.

6)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAOl2F6g8W4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBjPCKPQgYo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uly5oQgxxAY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6JwacsWVv4

Additionally Claire Delbos did one as well:

https://imslp.org/wiki/L%27%C3%A2me_en_bourgeon_(Delbos,_Claire)

7) The exact dates are debated. For the Offrande however, it dates to the time Le banquet céleste was written. (Preface, Olivier Latry)

[L'ascension: why?]

8) Nicholas Capozzoli: Messiaen's Forgotten Mie (sic). Additional clarifications: Hill-Simeone, Messiaen

9) Alright.

10) Will do more research. This is from a private anecdote circulating in French conservatoires.

11/12) I concur.

For the birth name of Claire Delbos, perhaps it should only be noted and referred to as 'Louise'.

P.S.: Is it possible to replace the 1937 Studio Harcourt photo with a colourised version?

Thanks very much! MarcelDupré1886 (talk) 17:30, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, @MarcelDupré1886, for your input, your collaborative outlook, and your thoughtful responses. Sorry it takes me so long to get back to you: I am busy lately in Real Life™!

1. In that case, I suggest putting a sentence about him, with a ref, in the main biography so the article explains his importance to Messiaen's biography; then there is no problem at all adding him in the lead.
2. ✓
3. ✓ …I'd be happy if you put it back, with the ref!
4. OK, so we could also mention that Noël was also Messiaen's teacher (with a ref), so it's integrated more with the rest of the content
5. ✓
6. Wikipedia doesn't normally like YouTube links as references, YouTube isn't exactly a "reliable source"! But I do believe you: so there must be printed/published corroboration?
7. I still think mentioning these unpublished pieces is too much detail for an encyclopaedia article, but that's just my view :)
   • L'ascension -- I'm not sure. I think it's because I prefer an encyclopaedia article to group common threads, and not to read "…in 1934 he did this. In 1935 he did that," which we are at risk of here? This whole section could perhaps use a little reorganisation. But to me, the transcription seems such an important organ piece! -- actually, I think it's better known as an organ piece, and it's so much more than "just a transcription"!
8. I would be happy for this to be clarified, although it still seems to me that since this article is about Olivier Messiaen there is no need to explain her name changes here. (It's obviously relevant to her own article.)
9. ✓
10. With a reference, I think this would warrant inclusion.
11. ✓
12. ✓

…and that photograph, if you have a colourised version of good enough quality, and you are sure that it is in the public-domain, by all means upload it to Wikimedia commons!

I am not a "custodian" of this article (there is no such thing in Wikipedia), and if you feel strongly then be bold! Just bear in mind that it is a featured article! 😃 RobertG ♬ talk 07:41, 18 May 2022 (UTC)