Talk:Palmire Dumont

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 09:38, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

Bouboule, by Henri Toulouse-Lautrec

• ... that in Madame Palmyre's lesbian bar, her bulldog Bouboule (pictured), who did not like women, would sometimes urinate on the customers? Source: Mack 1989 p. 250: "Coquiot reports that Bouboule did not share his mistress's fondness for the society of women: the more Madame Palmyre tried to teach him to behave politely to her clients, the more obstinately savage Bouboule became. And if the women who frequented La Souris rashly persisted in fondling him against his will, he would manifest his displeasure by crawling under the table and, with infallible aim, drenching their exposed ankles." [1]
  • ALT1: ... that Madame Palmyre was one of the first members of the French Bulldog-Owners Club (Palmyre's dog pictured) and met with other bulldog owners in her lesbian bar? Source: Haraway 2008 [2]: "One of the first members of the French bulldog owners club was Madame Palmyre, the proprietor of the club‘La Souris’ located in the lower reaches of Paris in the area of ‘Mont Martre’ and ‘Moulin Rouge: This was a gathering place for butchers, coachmen, rag traders, café owners, barrow boys, writers, painters, lesbians and hookers. Lesbian writers Renée Vivien and Natalie Clifford Barney and Colette, as well as modernist writers such as Catulle Mendes, Coppée, Henry Cantel, Albert Mérat and Léon Cladel gathered together with bulldogs at La Souris."
  • ALT2: ... that Palmire Dumont was a pioneer of LGBT nightlife in "Gay Paree"? Source: Choquette 2016 [3]: Palmyre Dumont [...] pioneered a business formula—the (homo)sexualized nocturnal restaurant and party bar—that would define “Gay Paree” in the interwar period and beyond.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Newent Onion Fayre
  • Comment: This was first created by ABF992, and at the same time SusunW and Kusma wrote a draft (now in the history of the redirect Palmire Louise Dumont). We then merged efforts. It would be great to see this on the Main Page during Pride Month!
    Additional hook suggestions welcome as usual. There are some sketches of Madamye Palmyre by Henri Toulouse-Lautrec, who was a regular patron of her bar (this could also be used for hooks).

Created by ABF992 (talk), SusunW (talk), and Kusma (talk). Nominated by Kusma (talk) at 21:05, 11 June 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Palmire Dumont; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• Wonderful stuff! I love seeing LGBT history written up this well on Wikipedia. Article was properly new at time of nomination, and easily long enough. Sourcing is thorough, wording is neutral and free from CV or close para. No other concerns about the article.
  As for hooks, all are sourced, so it's down to which is most interesting. I enjoy the silliness of ALT0, but I wonder if focusing on the dog doesn't overshadow the whole "pioneering lesbain bar owner" aspect. ALT2 is more straightforward about that, but less fun as a result. What if we combine ALT2 with a bit that plays on the source quote for ALT1, something about how her pioneering lesbian bar was known as a meeting place for XYZ classes of people you want to highlight and one ornery bulldog. Then you get the pioneering aspect but also get to be a bit more weird and hooky about it. (I'm deliberately not building the hook so I can review whatever y'all come up with). (Image is free by way of being old, and looks good at DYK size). ♠PMC♠ (talk) 08:57, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

  Thank you PMC! Here's a new ALT:

  • ALT3: ... that Palmire Dumont, a pioneer of LGBT nightlife in "Gay Paree", was among the first members of the French Bulldog-Owners Club (her dog pictured) and met other bulldog owners in her lesbian bar?

  I understand the concerns about putting too much focus on Bouboule. If Toulouse-Lautrec had made as nice pictures of Mme Palmyre as of Bouboule, this would not need a dog. (It is also easy to make hooks that focus too much on Toulouse-Lautrec). Do you think a simple combination as above, putting the "pioneer" first and talking about the dog later, works, or would you prefer further wordsmithing? —Kusma (talk) 09:27, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

  Works for me! ♠PMC♠ (talk) 09:32, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Palmire Dumont/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Firefangledfeathers (talk · contribs) 04:21, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

---

Hi SusunW. Many thanks to you, Kusma, and ABF992 for this interesting article. I enjoyed my first read, and I've included some initial comments below. I will have a fuller set of comments for you within 25 hours. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:21, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for picking it up. We appreciate you taking a look at it and look forward to collaborating with you to improve it. SusunW (talk) 12:57, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

You're welcome, and I feel the same. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:23, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Ok folks. Putting this on hold. Pretty sure we can resolve any final issues within a week. Gotta take a look at the new lead, and I hope others do as well. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 22:03, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

1. Is it well written?

   A. The prose is clear and concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; the spelling and grammar are correct:

   Looking good after a couple passes. One more read-through for me, but I anticipate finding very few issues.

   Final issues are below.

   All now resolved.

   B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:

   MOS:LEAD issue mentioned below.

   Now resolved.

2. Is it verifiable with no original research?

   A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

   A well-crafted reference section.

   B. All in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines:

   Sources cited are high-quality. One issue (Note 2 and the portrait) is still up in the air below.

   All issues resolved

   C. It contains no original research:

   I'm construing the portrait issue as one of verifiability rather than OR.

   D. It contains no copyright violations or plagiarism:

   Earwig is clear and the few citations I've checked so far have been ok. Will do some random spotchecks before closing the review.

   I've completed the random spot checks and no copyvio or CLOP issues came up.

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

   Covers the main aspects expected from a biography. Hits the main beats of Dumont's life per sources like Choquette 2016.

   B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):

   There are some colorful tangents, which are kept brief enough.

4. Is it neutral?

   It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:

   The few real viewpoints and bits of analysis are coming from the strongest sources.

5. Is it stable?

   It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:

6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio?

   A. Media are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   Excellent illustrations (thanks Toulouse-Lautrec!). One question below.

   Question now answered

   B. Media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

   One caption issue so far.

   Caption issue resolved.

7. Overall:

   Pass or fail:

   All issues resolved. Congratulations to the nominators. A pleasure working with you. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 22:15, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

(Criteria marked are unassessed)

GA criteria feedback

I'll be placing a list of items that need to be addressed below. I may be wrong or misguided on some, so feel free to push back. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:21, 28 June 2023 (UTC) Overall

• I made some copy edits here, and I would appreciate some review. Please let me know if you'd prefer I don't edit the article directly. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:21, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

• Feel free. We're a very cooperative group and have had no problems giving free reign to edit as we saw fit. Besides which, your changes are improvements, which is always a plus. SusunW (talk) 12:57, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Thanks! Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:23, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

• Another set of copy edits here. Please review. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:44, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Just one tiny spelling correction, i.e. describe din. I fixed it. Otherwise fine, I think. SusunW (talk) 14:15, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Many eyes make good work. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:32, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Images

• The caption for the menu is overlong and has sentence fragments ended with periods. It might help to remove Stern and use Toulouse-Lautrec's last name only (as has been done for a while in the body and previous captions). Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:21, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

• Moved part of the description to the body. SusunW (talk) 13:13, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

• Is the Papo-de-rola balcony the type alluded to by Collette?Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:21, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

• Truth be told, I never heard it called that, until I was searching for an image to match her description. I live in a Spanish colonial city in Mexico and these balconies are everywhere in the old part of the city. Choquette calls it a Spanish balcony and immediately her description made me think of that. When I put in a search, to see if I could find an image, all the balconies that looked like this were in that category. Here we just call it a Spanish colonial balcony, so if we need to change the text, that isn't an issue. SusunW (talk) 13:13, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
  • "Spanish colonial balcony" sounds good to me. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:23, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

done. SusunW (talk) 15:42, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Early career

• Note 2 ("The portrait ...") is unclear, and the source does not state that Dumont was identified when the portrait was sold. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:21, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

• It's a mystery. We have been unable to positively identify what work Choquette was referring to. As stated in the body, she said it might have been Dumont and the footnote says it sold in 2010. Kusma and I tried to find the sale. He found a potential sale, but we could not see any reference to Dumont in the Christie's blurb. I tried to verify what the descriptions were in the sources Christie's gave, but hit a brick wall. So I tried the RX, which so far has yielded nada. SusunW (talk) 13:32, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Can we play it safe: remove the footnote, and change the body prose to something like "Other evidence that Toulouse-Lautrec and Dumont became acquainted early in her time in Paris comes from a portrait he made in 1892, which scholar Leslie Coquette writes may depict Dumont." ?
    • I think that would work (but I am happy to hear other opinions). We haven't been able to find any evidence behind Choquette's claim yet, and we can still add it back in once we get more from WP:RX. (This is my guess for the image; as you see, there is no information linking this to Dumont on the Christie's page. So we definitely can't add this image as the evidence is very flimsy). —Kusma (talk) 10:27, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
    • Done, feel free to revert/tweak. —Kusma (talk) 11:11, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

La Souris

• Readers are likely to think "single, and had an adopted child" is a quote from the police report. Can this be paraphrased or attributed to Choquette? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:21, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

• done. SusunW (talk) 13:32, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Lead

• I think the main thing holding me back from a pass at this point is the need for an expanded lead. MOS:LEAD suggests that a two or three paragraph lead would suit an article of this size. The current lead does a good job of summarizing her legacy. Expansion could help it cover her early life and career and maybe give a bit more detail on the bars. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:32, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I've given it a first pass. Anyone else want to tweak it? SusunW (talk) 05:38, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I like the new lead. I would love input, even if brief, from Kusma and ABF992. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:32, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

I can say a few words but I am generally quite happy to let SusunW edit as she thinks best in this article; my contribution was mostly some fact checking, some source hunting and then working on merging Susun's draft and ABF992's article. Anyway, in my view the lead effectively covers what it needs to cover, at least briefly. I am not totally convinced by the sentence "Her life is an underpinning to understanding of the social history of the development of lesbian Montmartre"; I think this isn't quite stated in the body should rather be merged into the following sentence about her businesses. People (even Leslie Choquette) seem to be not really interested in her as an example of a lesbian in 1890s Paris, but really look at her as an entrepreneur and how she and her bars and restaurants helped shape the LGBT nightlife of the time. —Kusma (talk) 21:39, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

I like the lead as well. I think Choquette's article, especially her introductory paragraphs, definitely focuses on Dumont as someone who "was important in the social history of the development of lesbian Montmartre", so perhaps we could tweak the existing sentence in lead to something like "her work as an entrepreneur was instrumental in the development of the social history of lesbian Montmartre" putting the focus more on her entrepreneurship and what it accomplished than her life 'as an example of a lesbian' ABF992 (talk) 04:39, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

I have made two attempts to improve this (one closer to SusunW's version, one closer to ABF992's suggestion), see my last two edits to the article. Please tweak further. —Kusma (talk) 08:07, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

I think it looks fine. I appreciate everyone's work on it. SusunW (talk) 14:17, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

I think it looks great. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 22:15, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Spot check I randomly selected 8 citations (more, really, since many sfns are repeated): 3, 5, 9, 15, 20, 21, 47, and 51. Most looked great. A few issues/questions below. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 22:12, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

• One page number was off, and one Choquette 2016 reference was actually supported by Choquette 2002. Can someone who's had their nose in the sources do a quick smell test for ones that seem off? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 22:12, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

• I double-checked them and don't think there are other errors. SusunW (talk) 19:45, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
  • Thanks. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:20, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

• Citation 5 (Stewart 1855, p. 128.) is used to support a definition for sous and a conversion to British pence. Is the conversion useful/accurate? Many readers will not find pence a useful comparison, and the conversion rate for 1855 may not match up with the time period covered in this article. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 22:12, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

• Personally, I find the comparison useful. We are talking about very small amounts of money and historical converters typically start with the major currency, i.e. Francs, Pounds Sterling, Dollars as opposed to sous, pence, pennies. If you look at the chart on page 299 and text page 303, exchange rates were "relatively stable" to at least the 1870s. SusunW (talk) 19:45, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
  • Good enough for me. On reflection, this isn't a GA-criteria issue anyway. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:20, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

• Citation 51 (Choquette 2016, p. 95.): our article text makes it seem like Delluc wrote his own memoirs, but it's presented by Choquette as a book about de Max. Clarify? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 22:12, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

• Our text says "She and Giguet were both discussed in the memoir Chez de Max (1918, At Max's) by Louis Delluc", which as far as I can tell is accurate. The book was clearly written by Delluc as per the French Bibliothèque catalogue, but Choquette describes it as a memoir, which typically is autobiographical, and says "De Max recalled...in his memoir". I cannot find an open access copy of the book anywhere (looked on world cat, gallica, BFN, archive.org) so it is impossible to determine whether Delluc was actually writing a biographical account, interviewing de Max, or simply facilitating de Max in writing his own autobiography. Open to suggestions on how we avoid OR but remain true to what Choquette says. SusunW (talk) 19:45, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
  • I suppose De Max have written his own memoir earlier, and Delluc may have written something like "De Max's memoir includes fond memories of the two." Hard to know for sure. I can't think of a way for Choquette to be accurate and our article language to be incorrect, so I'm fine with leaving it. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:20, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Final items

• Can someone please review this set of ce and link changes. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:07, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

• Looks fine to me. Made one small correction to erroneous punctuation. SusunW (talk) 17:47, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
  • Good catch. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:03, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

• In §Death and legacy, "she helped propel Paris to a central position as a capital of entertainment" comes off a bit odd. As far as I know, Paris was already a capital of entertainment. The Choquette page cited focuses more on the establishment of Montmartre as a "raunchy entertainment capital". Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:07, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

• changed it to say "helped propel that area of Paris to hold a central position as a capital of gay entertainment" SusunW (talk) 17:47, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

• In §Assault incident and new management,"It has also been speculated that Palmyre paid the police protection money" is a bit unclear. Can we say "Choquette notes the possibility that Palmyre paid the police protection money"? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:07, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

• Used acknowledged, as noted is one of "those words" SusunW (talk) 17:47, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Non-GA criteria feedback

The items below do not need to be addressed in order to meet the GA criteria, but I recommend taking a look anyway.

• Citations for content within parentheses should precede the closing bracket, per MOS:REFPUNCT. This should be fixed in "(a sou was approximately ..." and it would be good to review the article for other instances. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:21, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

• Fixed. Searched ")" and find no other cited parentheticals. SusunW (talk) 14:09, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

• Simon 1990 is not targeted by any citations. If it is only being used as a general reference, adding a "|ref=none" parameter will hide the Harv warning (most readers, and many editors, never see these errors anyway). Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:21, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

• done. SusunW (talk) 14:09, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

• The notes are labeled "Notes 1", etc., though "Note 1" would be preferable. This can be achieved by retitling the ref group name to "Note" in the #tags and the reflist template. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:21, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

• done SusunW (talk) 14:09, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

• The article is mixed in its use of the serial (Oxford) comma. Would you prefer it be used always or never? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:21, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

• Probably a result of 3 different editors. I prefer yes, but I am not one to impose my preference on others, so if someone disagrees, please feel free to revert changes. SusunW (talk) 14:09, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Thanks. Will double-check your work in my next read-through. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:44, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
    • Looks good. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:31, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

• Is Dyke (slang) a useful link for the terms used to describe Dumont's sexuality? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:21, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

• The source equates the terms, but I don't speak French, so possibly the others can weigh in? SusunW (talk) 14:29, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

  I am not too well versed in French slang, but after looking at fr:gouine and wikt:gouine, I think equating the terms is appropriate. However, Choquette does not say that the terms were used to describe Dumont; she just thinks that the description in Davray's book (with Dumont as "Mme G.") hints at her being a lesbian because all those terms start with a G. My conclusion is we are better off without that footnote, so I have removed it. —Kusma (talk) 21:37, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

I like everything you have all done here, great work, thanks! ABF992 (talk) 00:31, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Final items

• I'm no MOS:FOREIGN expert, but shouldn't "La Souris" be italicized in all the titles of works (e.g. Madame Palmyre at La Souris)? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:07, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

• some weird coding thing on WP. If you put two ' around the title it should italicize the whole title, but apparently if you put the language template within the double ' (which I cannot type on this page as it overrides and makes everything in italics) it overrides whatever else is there? Don't ask me about coding, WP technology is insane. But, I think I fixed it. SusunW (talk) 18:08, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

• Can we standardize capitalization for "rue"? I'd prefer lowercase Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:07, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

• I only saw one instance of lower case and on French WP the street names are capitalized, i.e. Rue Halévy, so I went with capitalization. SusunW (talk) 18:08, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

• It might be nice to align some of the images on the left, for variety. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:07, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

  I prefer not, but if anyone objects, I am not going to argue about it. SusunW (talk) 18:08, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

  Happy to see how others feel. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:31, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

• I think the lead would read better with a paragraph break just before "Dumont was born". Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:07, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

  I am not a fan of one or two sentence paragraphs, but it's a personal preference and apparently a lot of WP editors like it. Added the break as per your suggestion. SusunW (talk) 18:08, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

• In the infobox, is "Palmyre Dumont" the single most common other name? My (limited) experience with the sources suggests "Madame Palmyre" might be better. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:07, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

• Unsure why you would repeat Madame Palmyre, since it is the lead name in the infobox. SusunW (talk) 18:08, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
  • Excellent point. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:31, 5 July 2023 (UTC)