Talk:Pine nut

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Pinon Pine Nuts are an important traditional holiday and seasonal food throught out the Southwestern U.S. Families would collect the food in the fall and have it available through out the holidays. Everyone from the southwest recounts family stories of collecting and roasting pinon nuts. Gift giving of roasted pinon pine nuts was a common practice. The smell of roasting pinon is absolutely enticing. On the East Coast of United States, the nuts were sold as "Indian Nuts". Unless people use the traditions they are forgotten. The draught and other factors have impacted the Pinyon's nut production. If your purchase pine nuts pre- roasted, ASK how what process was used. We advise against MICROWAVE ROASTING. It ruins the food.

Many, many web sites wish to call any pine nut a pinon. The real test of a Pinon Nut falls within the law of New Mexico:

25-10-2. Unlawful labeling, advertising or selling of products as pinon nuts.

A. It is unlawful for any person to package any product and label the product as pinon nuts or as containing pinon nuts or to use the words pinon nuts in any prominent location on the label of such product or to advertise, sell or offer for sale any product which is labeled pinon nuts or as containing pinon nuts unless the product consists of pinon nuts or uses pinon nuts as an ingredient in the product.

B. As used in this section, "pinon nuts" means the edible nut which is the product of the pinon tree, scientifically known as genus "pinus", subgenus "strobus", section "parrya", subsection "cembroides"

Public Land use in the United States and Pine Nuts POLITICS OF PUBLIC LAND and Special Interests

The politics of the Western cattle industry and public land grazing is the primary reason. From 1950-72 the USFS and BLM cleared ("chained") over 3,211,000 acres of pinion-juniper to create grazing land. Before the huge corporations controlled grazing permits, pine nuts were harvested by the box car load and readily available. Those were the days before the chain-saw, bull dozer, massive herbicide treatments, the American Cattle’s Association and the Bureau of Land Management (BLM). The days before large expanses of maturing pine nut trees were destroyed to grow grass for cattle --- at taxpayer expense. Pinyon pinenuts sustained the native peoples of the Great Basin for over 10,000 years. The soft-shelled pinyon pinenut, (p.monophylla) provided primary protein to the Shoshone, Piautes and Washo peoples, containing substantial amounts of the amino acids necessary for human growth. It was a sacred part of the way they lived. Between 1865 to 1877, Native lands had been overrun with cattle and sheep. The pinion pines, which they depended upon for a pine nut crop each fall, were rapidly being cut down for fuel for the mine smelters. Smelting a ton of ore required from twenty-five to thirty-five bushels of charcoal. The mills at Eureka consumed as much as 1.25 million bushels of charcoal a year, destroying the Indians' pine nut groves.

I have worked very hard with land use and pine nuts in the United States. The contribution is based on material from my web site and I am pleased to see this excellent forum. Pinon Penny

The laws cited above of course only apply in New Mexico. The definition of 'piñon' depends on language; in the original Spanish, it referred primarily to the European species Pinus pinea, but simply means 'pine nut' without any precise species definition and only later used for Pinus cembroides etc by Spanish colonists. I suspect the New Mexico law could easily be challenged in court, should someone wish to do so - MPF 14:46, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Branding regional foods is a topic in itself. It would be an interesting legal question for many reasons and yes, it is only the jurisdiction of New Mexico which has enacted branding laws for pinon. Using the word "pinon" to mean any pine nut, at least in the US is a risky way way to communicate about pine nuts. People know P.edulis and P. monophylla flavor and are not happy when other species are substituted. Pine nuts are so rich in species diversity that one would think people would wish to educate about the special qualities of their regional species.

I'm not convinced how much variation there is between species; by far the biggest difference is between fresh, and stale, pine nuts, regardless of species. Which is why each group of people, everywhere, says their local species tastes best, because the imported ones are no longer fresh and don't taste good any more. Ask a Spaniard in Spain, and they'll tell you Pinus pinea tastes best, as that's local grown and fresh. Ask a Korean in Korea, and they'll say Pinus koraiensis. Any pine nut, whatever species, once it's been shipped half way round the world (usually not refrigerated, either), no longer tastes good. My test for a fresh pine nut is to see if it will germinate; so far, I've never succeeded with any shop-bought pine nut. - MPF 20:03, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The freshness is key with any food. Most nuts arrive in the market place with the shell removed, with the living energy is gone. Mother Natures packing is by far the best. I bring pinon from the forest myself, and almost to the tree know when and how the nuts were picked. My favorite is P.monophylla. Pinus koraiensis is impressive to me, as well. I do not care for P.Pinea and P. Sibiricus oil is when cold pressed and properly handled is outstanding. I believe there are great variations in species, but obtaining the fresh product is indeed very difficult. Grafting confirs for nut productions is topic worthy of consideration. It would be an interesting thing to try different species for grafting.

Red Indian

Hey, would anyone object if I removed the phrase Red Indian from this text? I know it's used overseas to differentiate native American Indians from subcontinential India Indians, but it's considered somewhat offensive here in the U.S. to call people by color. Thanks. jengod 20:50, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

The reason it is there is to provide the etymological derivation of the term "Indian nuts", which is otherwise a rather confusing term. By all means re-word it (or remove mention of "Indian nuts" altogether? Is it that common a term?), but if the term "Indian nuts" is to be retained, it also needs to be explained. Wikipedia has plenty of other cases of historical terms now considered offensive that are mentioned out of need for etymological or historical context - MPF 22:34, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Merging Pine nut oil

MPF recently merged Pine nut oil into Pine nut with the edit comment "not an important enough product for its own article". I've reverted the merge and put a {{mergeto}} tag on the article to follow standard procedure for merging articles.

• Oppose Personally, I disagree with the merger. It's not really WP's call whether pine nut oil is "an important enough product". I'd argue for keeping it, on the following basis:
  • The article length is comparable to the length of other stub articles on comparable subjects, and there's enough to say that the article could be expanded considerably, if someone is interested.
  • There exist Web site devoted to the subject, at least in part, so there are sources of information to draw from.
  • As with many oils and the plants that they are derived from, the audience of the two articles are sufficiently different to merit separate articles.
  • Most of the oils on List of vegetable oils have their own articles, and there's no particular reason to think that Pine nut oil is less worthy of a separate article than these are.

Waitak 01:02, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

• Support merge. "There exist Web site devoted to the subject" - I don't find this; I find websites devoted to pine nuts, which include information on the oil as a secondary topic within the site. Also the information in the pine nut oil article is very sketchy, and adding extra information (e.g. a list of pine seeds it is extracted from) would largely duplicate this page anyway. I also think details of the flavour (since both seeds and oil are mainly used as flavourings, not having significantly different uses) are largely duplication. In this it differs from most of the other items at List of vegetable oils, where there is often a substantial difference in use of the seed and the oil. - MPF 14:50, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

• Support. If the section on the oil in this article gets unreasonably large, then it should be split out (and summarized in summary style), but for now it makes a perfect little section. If you don't want it to be merged, write more content. —Keenan Pepper 05:38, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Fair enough. I love a good challenge. :-) I've added a fair bit more in the current pine nut oil article. Waitak 08:35, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

• Oh cool! Didn't expect you to actually do it. I'll write a summary section for this article. —Keenan Pepper 18:11, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Highest protein of any nut?

I've seen the line about 31 grams of protein all over the internet but I don't see where it came from. However, the US Nutritional database says that pine nuts have only about 13g of protein per 100g of nuts. 72.13.132.211 17:00, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Can anybody check the data? The amount of carbohydrates, fat, and proteins add to more than 100g. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.79.151.211 (talk) 02:57, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Unsubstantiated and illogical claim?

"Pine nuts are commercially available in shelled form, but due to poor storage, these rarely have a good flavour and may be already rancid at the time of purchase."

Here in the UK pine nuts are only available shelled and I've never come across a pack that are already rancid. Wouldn't it be pointless for the supermarket to sell pine nuts that they know will go rotten? Also, they taste fine to me... Monkeyspearfish (talk) 14:08, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Try germinating some and see if you can get them to grow. That's the best test for freshness. I've never succeeded. - MPF (talk) 09:54, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I too have bought shelled pine nuts many times (at retail in the US) and have never had any problem with taste or rancidness. I softened the language in the main article to make it less pessimistic. As for germination -- have you ever tried to grow a shelled walnut or chestnut? I'd consider it highly unusual for ANY shelled nut to germinate. Keno (talk) 22:38, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Pinoli vs. Pignoli

It says that in Italian, these are called "pinoli", or rarely "pignoli" nuts. I've never called them Pinoli, and all I've ever heard people say is pignoli. I think the word "rarely" should be removed.72.78.9.230 (talk) 22:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

According to [1], pine nut is "pinolo" in Italian, and "pignon" in French. As far as possible variants on those terms, in either language (or English, for that matter), I am totally clueless. Just thought I would add my two cents. --SweetNightmares (talk) 05:00, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I've worked in restaurants that use these pine nuts and all the labels I've come across had (Pignoli) on the label after the "English" name.. --Sealicus

Here in Tuscany there are many dialectal variants: pinocchi, pinoccoli, pinottoli, pinelli and pignoli (this one mainly in Arezzo Province) but when speaking in Italian almost everyone uses pinoli--Carnby (talk) 18:37, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

In standard Italian, pine nuts are pinoli. Pignoli are over-meticulous fusspots. I hope that pointing out that difference doesn't make me too much of a pignolo myself. -- Picapica (talk) 23:05, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Pine nuts vs. Piñon nuts

I think it is incorrect to call Piñon nuts them Pine nuts when in fact aren't, literately speaking. Most "Pine Nuts" are harvested from pine trees, but are differentiated when Piñon nuts are being harvested. A person can buy a bag of pine nuts but aren't Piñon nuts. Piñon trees are somewhat different from other pine trees even though it technically is a pine tree, I'm no botanist but I do know that pine nuts are quite larger than those Piñon nuts while both comes from a pine cone. 216.138.82.198 (talk) 11:14, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Some pine nuts are too small to be commercially useful but are still edible. In the Latin language, pinus is used to decribe all pine trees in the world. In the English language, "pine" is used to describe all pine trees in the world, whereas "pinyon" is used to describe aspects of three species of North American pine trees. In the Spanish language, piñon is used to describe all pine trees in the world. The English word "pinyon" was derived from the Spanish word piñon because the pinyon trees are New World pine trees that, as you noted, are different in not having commercially harvestable seeds. This may be a successful adaption in response to the Western conifer seed bug. 68.32.154.213 (talk) 13:03, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

—"Piñón" is not the Spanish word to describe all pine trees in the world. The standard word for "pine tree" is "pino". The most common use for "piñón" is that of "pine nut" (what Italians call "pinolo"). However, there is a New World bush which is called piñón. See DRAE: http://dle.rae.es/?id=T5yeBD9%7CT60QAoW%7CT62Ftnz. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cervantista (talk • contribs) 01:45, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Chinese pine nuts

I find the article slightly troubling because it warns against pine nuts from China but then talks of Asian-type pine nuts and gives a picture of Korean pine nuts to help identify good from bad pine nuts. To be honest, that whole paragraph is unhelpful. How common are the nasty nuts? I presume shops aren't going to sell a dodgy type of pine nut, or are they just as confused as this article? qp10qp (talk) 17:42, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

The reference doesn't support the way the text is written. It is really only a paper about a few cases of 'taste disturbances' in Belgium, 8 years ago, that could be related to pine nuts, but no real evidence of it. The part about "avoid it by not consuming pine nuts from Asia" looks over the top for me. If there are no more cases, or research, I don't think it merits an entry here, much less warning people about 'risks'. --Cmontero (talk) 00:01, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

OK, then, I've removed the section and placed it here for appraisal (see below). The nuts I buy are from Turkey, which is in Asia and Europe, and I've never had any taste disturbances from them. I assume my country doesn't import food that fails our food standards. Certainly the section seems unnecessarily alarmist, and unfair on China and even the whole of Asia. Maybe a sentence about this issue should be in the article, worded in a less advisory fashion, but no more. qp10qp (talk) 12:17, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Risks of eating pine nuts

The eating of pine nuts can cause serious taste disturbances, lasting for days or weeks. The taste disturbance develops one or two days after consumption. A bitter, metallic taste is described. The pine nuts involved are always imported from China, but only a minority of Chinese pine nuts present this problem. Until now it is not clear which pine species is implicated. Concerning the cause, it has been observed that the pine nuts involved typically contain triglycerides formed by 16-18° unsaturated fatty acids. Analysis on pesticide residues and heavy metal did not reveal any contamination.. Though very unpleasant, there doesn't seem to be a real health concern. The problem can be avoided by not consuming Chinese pine nuts. They can be recognised because they are shorter. The biological species of pine nut is normally not described on the package, however, the pictures of an European and Asian type of pine nuts are given to illustrate the general differences in form that can make the distinction.

Well, I see that someone has added that back in, saying that I removed it "without reason". I hope some more people will comment on it, anyway. qp10qp (talk) 07:24, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps it's tangentially interesting, but it certainly doesn't require more than its share of article space. I've left all the information there unchanged but tightened it up, paring away much redundancy and informality in the process. Keno (talk) 22:43, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

its not my contribution but if you've ever eatin them you would understand, and why are you policing the pine nuts article anyway, does any know anything to counter the effects. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.100.220.128 (talk) 22:07, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

In fact, I have recently had this exact experience with nuts from Trader Joes, imported from Korea. I looked it up and there are tons of people who support this claim. You can find many of them here- http://www.steadyhealth.com/Bitter_taste_in_mouth_while_eating-t85978-0-asc-0.html I do not know if this warrants adding to the article, but it is a very interesting subject. If we could find more on why it may happen, that could be included perhaps? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.49.68.241 (talk) 00:36, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

I've had the same experience with pine nuts bought at TJ's, except mine are supposed to be from Russia, Korea, and Vietnam. I kept them in the fridge for several months. This article claimed that the problem is only caused by a certain Chinese variety. My experience (and not just mine) has been different, unless unless these nuts have been mislabeled. This might qualify as original research; however, I see no clear confirmation that this is specific to the Chinese variety. I read the discussion section of the paper in the Journal of Toxicology, which was supposed to confirm the Pinus armandii hypothesis. It does not claim to confirm it, they merely state that the findings suggest it, which is quite different. A quote: All the samples reported by consumers who suffered from dysgeusia have shown to contain nuts from Pinus spp. identified as P. armandii in mixture or not with P. koraiensis nuts. These findings suggest that the dysgeusia following the consumption of pine nuts is caused by pine species contamination, more specifically by P. armandii. I haven't read the entire paper but at least in the discussion they do not mention anything about the samples that do not cause dysgeusia. Also, they speculate that a chemical used in the shelling process might be responsible. I edited the article: left the mention of the Chinese hypothesis but changed the language so it's clear that it's only a hypothesis. Sergivs-en (talk) 22:57, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I had pine nuts from dubious source that caused taste disturbance. The symptoms were gone after eating half teaspoon of cinnamon powder. 192.88.168.35 (talk) 19:02, 2 June 2009 (UTC)Stefano Pietri

I too have experienced this taste disturbance; it is extremely pronounced and unpleasant. I definitely urge other contributors NOT to remove this section, as I find both the warning and especially the information identifying the root cause of this disturbing phenomenon to be extremely useful and reassuring. Bonehed (talk) 06:50, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree. As a person who ate a ton of pine nuts on christmas eve and who is currnetly enjoying "pine mouth" I was very happy to find the various blogs and eventually this wiki article as I was trying to self diagnose via google. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brendan98 (talk • contribs) 17:35, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

From a new editor: having recently experienced this taste disturbance, and spent hours trying to establish some form of diagnosis ("what's happening to me ?!?), decided that others might benefit from additional references and from the insertion of the "pine mouth" colloquialism. Fallingditch (talk) 10:05, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Same thing happened to me. Bought a small bag of pine nuts, presumably the Chinese variety from the images I've looked at, and got the most bitter taste a few days later. Only after a web search did I find out about "pine-mouth". Don't have any bitter taste until a few seconds after I eat something. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.46.199.231 (talk) 19:01, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

"A well known physiological process known as enterohepatic recirculation (EHR) could play a key role in the development of PNS."

What is PNS? Abbreviation was not defined earlier. I guessed Pine Nut Syndrome but is this really a syndrome or just metallogeusia? When I think of syndromes, I think of a collection of symptoms.

there's no date on your comment, but i came to the Talk page to see if anyone else had brought this exact thing up. i also "stumbled" for a few moments when i read that sentence, and, like you, figured it was short for "Pine Nut Syndrome." but i also thought the last sentence of that paragraph needed a citation, or, if it was in the #19 source, that needed to be made clear. so i added "(PNS)" to the first/earlier mention of Pine Nut Syndrome, and then rewrote the last 2 sentences of that last paragraph.

and, in looking at most of the sources for this section of the article, i'm wondering if it shouldn't be at least noted that other symptoms are sometimes reported--nausea and abdominal cramps? also, that there have been cases where the "taste disturbance" has lasted for years?Colbey84 (talk) 07:18, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

Pueblo Indian / Aztec story

Moving this to Talk for now

In literature and legend

In an important Pueblo Indian story, a maiden eats a pine nut given to her by a divine figure and becomes pregnant. The child she bears is the Aztec conqueror Montezuma.

Seems quite unlikely on the face of it. This quote has been tagged as "citation needed" since July 2008 without results. Please provide a good cite for this before restoring to the article. -- 201.37.230.43 (talk) 17:20, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Appetite Suppressant?

I recently heard that pine nuts act as an appetite suppressant. I found a link to a creative commons-licensed article on the National Institute of Health's website: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2322999

If someone would be interested in adding this content to the article, it would be beneficial. SweetNightmares (talk) 19:42, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Good finding, but I will be joining in the group waiting for someone who could expand the article with the source. :) --Caspian blue

It's only an appetite suppressant because now everything tastes like crap. :'( —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.91.190.150 (talk) 19:06, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

I second that. Everything tastes awful now. This "pine mouth" business is real. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.116.94.39 (talk) 19:12, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Pinocchio

I found this statement in the article:

Pinocchio means 'pine eye' from 'pino' ('pine') plus 'occhio' ('eye')

This is false. The word pinocchio is just a Tuscan word for pinolo and derives directly from Latin *pīnuculus (Devoto, Battisti-Alessio) and has nothing to do with eyes or similar.--Carnby (talk) 18:31, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Pinus pinea in the international market

The article mentions in passing that P. koraiensis is the most common species in international trade, and that P. pinea is the major species (grown) in Europe. I'm wondering to what extent P. pinea is available (in Europe particularly). In the US, it's almost impossible to find P. pinea pine-nuts. The grocers in the Italian neighborhood near me that specialize in imported products do not carry any P. pinea pine-nuts. Major brands of imported Italian foods (e.g. Cento, Alessi) in the US sell Asian pine nuts even though many of their other products are imported from Italy (I'm a little puzzled by this one: http://www.delallo.com/products/pignoli-nuts, the label on the jar calls them "Spanish pignolis", but the nuts themselves look more like P. koraiensis than P. pinea). Given that Asian pine nuts are much cheaper than European pine nuts, I'd suspect that much of what is commercially available in Europe is actually from Asian pine species. The figures shown here (http://www.pinenut.com/value.html) suggest that Europe relies heavily on Asian sources (45% of Chinese production goes to the US, around 10% each to UK, Holland and Germany; given their smaller populations, it appears Chinese pine nuts are just as prevalent in these 3 northern European countries as the US).

Basically, in summary, I'm very skeptical that "In Europe, pine nuts come from the Stone Pine (Pinus pinea)". That may be true in Italy, Portugal, Spain and Turkey, but it sure looks to me like the rest of Europe (and the world) gets almost all of their pine nuts from Asia. And I wouldn't be surprised if the cheaper Asian pine nuts are prevalent in Italy as well. Is there a reference for the availability of P. pinea nuts in Europe? Can anybody in Europe confirm that P. pinea nuts are the most commonly available species? 192.104.39.2 (talk) 20:57, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

• I just added the dubious template regarding P. pinea being the major source of pine nuts consumed (not produced) in Europe. (I'm the same as the IP above). I have noticed European pine-nuts becoming more prevalent in the US (due largely to pine mouth concerns, I believe) since my comment above. I still question that P. pinea is the "common" pine-nut anywhere at this point. Chinese nuts are far cheaper, and widely imported by European countries.Plantdrew (talk) 21:46, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Inappropriate hatnote

Hatnotes are for disambiguation or where for other reasons the topic might be confused with a similar name per this guideline That is not the case here - Araucaria can be mentioned in the "See also" section.  Philg88 ^♦talk 05:59, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

@Philg88: It was being confused: "The large edible seeds of species of the Southern Hemisphere conifer genus Araucaria ... are also often called, although improperly, pine nuts." [emphasis added] [2] This statement was split at the same time the hatnote was inserted. The hatnote needs to stay as per Wikipedia:Hatnote#Ambiguous term that redirects to an unambiguously named article. Fgnievinski (talk) 23:14, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Not that big a deal as far as I'm concerned.  Philg88 ^♦talk 15:59, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

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Raw or cooked?

It is not clear in this article whether pine/pinyon nuts are safe to eat raw (or palatable raw), or must be cooked. This is an important detail when describing or defining any food stuff. --LaEremita (talk) 01:02, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Likely spam

I think this edit is spam. Invasive Spices (talk) 22:49, 7 June 2021 (UTC)