Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Plants

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WikiProject Plants

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WikiProject Plants (Rated Project-class)
This page is within the scope of WikiProject Plants, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of plants and botany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
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nonsense plants/linksEdit

I can't fix this:

Cheers, 145.132.201.64 (talk) 16:48, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Oenothera larmarckiana is now a redirect to Oenothera glazioviana. Peter coxhead (talk) 11:13, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
I have merged Oenothera lamarckiana into Oenothera glazioviana. Peter coxhead (talk) 12:20, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
Oenothera gigas now redirects to Oenothera glazioviana. Peter coxhead (talk) 12:55, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
I think the above are all the fixes needed. Peter coxhead (talk) 12:55, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
I think that Oenothera larmarckiana ought to go to redirects for deletion. Lavateraguy (talk) 07:03, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Crataegus speciesEdit

I have recently converted all the manual taxoboxes for Crataegus species articles to use {{Speciesbox}}. In almost all cases, I simply reproduced the taxonomic hierarchy present in the manual taxobox, creating taxonomy templates for sections and series as necessary.

However, I suspect the taxonomy is very often well out-of-date; it appears to be based on morphology and papers and monographs from the 1990s or earlier. I'm aware that Crataegus is something of a taxonomic black hole, so I'm not going to try to update the articles. Maybe someone else is more courageous? Peter coxhead (talk) 13:00, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Sorbus speciesEdit

I've now done the same as above for Sorbus species articles, again simply retaining the name and taxonomic hierarchy present in the manual taxobox.

However, I see that Plants of the World Online and other taxonomic sources have accepted major splits of Sorbus, in particular into Aria (57 spp. in PoWO) and Karpatiosorbus (85 spp. in PoWO), but many species articles are still under Sorbus. There's limited discussion of the newer taxonomy at Sorbus. We don't appear to have a list of Sorbus species anywhere. Any views on what we should do? Peter coxhead (talk) 09:31, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

I'll create the list article. Do you happen to know the paper that motivated PoWO to accept the split? Abductive (reasoning) 20:54, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
Created List of Sorbus species. Abductive (reasoning) 21:10, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
There is an article Whitebeam that could be moved to Aria. Abductive (reasoning) 21:20, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
@Abductive: the evidence for splitting Sorbus sensu lato seems to have been building up over time. Some of the actual splits seem to come from this paper. There's also a readable summary with a proposal and key here. I don't know if PoWO, etc. actually follow either of these. The reality, as noted by Stace (2019), New Flora of the British Isles, who declined to accept splitting at that time, is that there are well-defined sexually reproducing diploid species which can be divided into coherent genera, but they are accompanied by numerous apomictic polyploid taxa, many of which are hybrids between these coherent genera. Binomial nomenclature just doesn't work well for widespread apomictic plants (cf. dandelions, brambles). And that is, I hope, my last word on Sorbus! Peter coxhead (talk) 06:47, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
I seem to have already found those two articles. Let me know if you come across any more. Crataegus, too. Abductive (reasoning) 06:50, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
P.S., the answer is, no, PoWO is not exactly following Rushforth. Abductive (reasoning) 06:53, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
@Abductive: many thanks for picking up this topic! Peter coxhead (talk) 08:35, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Phaseolus vulgarisEdit

Please come participate in the discussion. Thanks! ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 16:54, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

A link to a DAB pageEdit

Can any expert help resolve the ambiguous link to Erysimum hieraciifolium in Erysimum crepidifolium? Thanks in advance, Narky Blert (talk) 10:15, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

In the absence of a reference for the statement it's hard to identify the context. But IPNI tells me that there's another 3 Erysimae hieraciifolieae, to add to the ambiguity. I'm also confused as to why the accepted name is Erysimum odoratum Ehrt. rather than Erysimum hieraciifolia L. Lavateraguy (talk) 18:58, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Darling 58 chestnut treeEdit

Hello, I recently created an article for the Darling 58, a genetically engineered American Chestnut tree which is resistant to chestnut blight. It may become the most widely planted GM tree in North America once it is released to the public. Any help improving the article would be appreciated. Thank you, Thriley (talk) 23:06, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

At this point that information should be on the page for American Chestnut and not a stand alone article. Hardyplants (talk) 03:23, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Escaped plantEdit

Please consider the article Escaped plant which is due to appear on the main page as a DYK in four days time. It is an interesting topic but it seems to me that the article has inaccuracies and anomalies. Here are a few points I have noticed: (pinging the creator @Qumarchi:) Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:47, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

  1. "Garden escapees can be adventitious" - either this is an incorrect term, or it is linked to the wrong article.
  2. Paragraph 2 of "Ecological threats" has a source that does not mention Opuntia, Gorse or New Zealand.
  3. Paragraph 3 of "Ecological threats" has no source but includes "Rhododendron species ... in the British Isles crowd out island vegetation."
  4. I wonder about the definitions in the "Related terms" section. Are these correctly explained?
@Cwmhiraeth you might want to cross-check with Introduced species. Also the terms archaeophyte and neophyte (see Glossary of botanical terms). Archaeophyte - plant that has existed in British Isles since medieval times, taken to mean since 1500. Neophyte - an alien that arrived after 1500. (Stace 4, pages 1123, 1130) For a source on invasive Rhododendron, this might serve: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jenvman.2003.12.009 Plantsurfer 11:01, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
If others are happy with the botanical terms defined and used, then the article just needs copyediting. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 12:45, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
I am not very happy with the "related terms". They are pretty obscure for the most part, and at very least need reliable sources. Agriophyte should probably read Agrophyte. Ephemerophyte is a word. Epecophyte - never heard of it, and is not used in the cited work. Hemerochory is ok. Ethelochory, Speirochory or Agochory appear in the WP articles Hemerochory and Escaped plant, in both of which there is a questionable citation and also in Glossary of botanical terms, but the terms are obscure and need a reliable source. Plantsurfer 13:31, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
The description of ephemerophyte is what would more commonly be referred to as a casual, but it links to ephemeral, which is a different concept. Lavateraguy (talk) 16:25, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Another link to a DAB pageEdit

Can anyone help with the ambiguous link to life histories in Mastocarpus stellatus? There may be an appropriate technical term I don't know. Thanks in advance, Narky Blert (talk) 12:38, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

@Narky Blert: I think they mean Biological life cycle. --awkwafaba (📥) 12:10, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Thanks! Narky Blert (talk) 12:12, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Next Featured List projectEdit

I'm almost done with pushing the series of 11 etymology lists through WP:FLC, and it's time to pick a new project to work on. I'm considering doing something with characteristics of plant families, but I'm open to other suggestions, and let me know if there are any ongoing list projects I can help with. - Dank (push to talk) 14:53, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

How about List of edible seeds, List of culinary nuts, List of leaf vegetables, List of edible flowers, List of culinary fruits ? — hike395 (talk) 12:19, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Help on Botanical sexismEdit

Anyone who is an expert on this and can give us a better view of the scientific consensus or other discussion on this topic? Thanks in advance. MSG17 (talk) 14:15, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Yet another link to a DAB pageEdit

Can anyone help with the ambiguous link to members in Ascent of sap? Copyediting might be helpful, because I don't understand the sentence, nor "Both" at the beginning of the next one. Narky Blert (talk) 10:31, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

@Narky Blert: The source says “vessel member” (briefly) and not “vessels members”. For some reason there was not a redirect for vessel member despite being in bold in the lede of the target, so I created it and the dab should be resolved now. --awkwafaba (📥) 12:38, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Thanks again! Narky Blert (talk) 12:42, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Category:Taxa by authorEdit

I am uncertain about the meaning of "Taxa named by ....". It could be taken as meaning "the first person to publish a description of a taxon", "any person who gave this taxon a name" or "the last person to name the species". For a species like Eucalyptus caesia, it's clear - George Bentham described it and gave it the name that's still accepted. For others, like Corymbia gummifera it is less clear - first described, named and published as Metrosideros gummifera by Gaertner, later renamed Corymbia gummifera by Ken Hill and Lawrie Johnson. So was C. gummifera "named by" Gaertner, by Hill and Johnson, or by all three? There are probably more complicated taxonomic histories with taxa "named by" more authorities. I am suggesting that there should be some "consensus" guidance either at WP:WikiProject Plants/Template or Category talk:Taxa by author, and asking for other editors' opinions on the subject. (My apologies if I have missed something, consensus has already been reached and there is already guidance.) Gderrin (talk) 08:22, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't think there has been any discussion about taxa by author, but there has been discussion and there is guidance about taxa by year: Wikipedia:WikiProject Plants/Description in year categories. Following the guidance for years, the author should be "the first person to publish a description of a taxon" (and that person may not even be included in the standard authority citation for a particular name; e.g. see Muscari racemosum/Hyacinthus muscari in the guidance for year categories). Plantdrew (talk) 16:54, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
There has been discussion somewhere – can't find it right now – which I think did not reach a consensus. I agree that the criteria should be the same, but there are a number of editors actively adding to the categories who don't, and think that if an author's name appears in the authority, then the article belongs in the category even if they only created a new combination. (There are also issues over differences between the ICNafp and the ICZN.) Peter coxhead (talk) 17:23, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

How detailed should description sections be?Edit

I'm not sure at the moment whether I should be including every piece of information there is on plant's morphology in the description section. The project page says: "The description should focus on the defining characteristics of the taxon, that distinguish it from other similar taxa," and in most cases only a paragraph of condensed botanical stuff is needed to get to that. Featured articles seem to vary, like Banksia aemula or Banksia cuneata are a middle ground, while Banksia integrifolia and Persoonia levis are very simple, and Banksia speciosa and Banksia serrata are quite complex. For my Dracophyllum GAs, Dracophyllum traversii and Dracophyllum arboreum, I've included every thing that the latest monograph of the genus describes. This ends up being quite long and complex – much more than any average reader would really need. The information there is five times the stuff included in books like The Flora of New Zealand or similar. Is there a line we should be drawing here, or is it a non-issue? Dracophyllum 00:09, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

It really is up to you on how much detail to include, but the purpose of a species description is to allow, say, an amateur botanist to distinguish two species they are literally looking at in the wild or herbarium. Some of the differences in lengths you might be seeing may be because the editor found a clearly written identification key that allowed them to refine the text a bit. Abductive (reasoning) 00:51, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Future of WikiProject Carnivorous plantsEdit

Wikipedia:WikiProject Carnivorous plants was marked as inactive on 11 May 2019. Fair enough; there hasn't been a conversation with 2 or more editors on the project talk page since 2011. On 8 September, the project assessment banner (Template:WikiProject Carnivorous plants) was marked as inactive. This had the effect of emptying all the assessment categories for Carnivorous plants, and since the carnivorous plant banner also counted into the assessment table for plants overall, all carnivorous plant articles were removed from the overall count (see quality log on September 9. Category:WikiProject Carnivorous plants articles was deleted on September 9th, and the remaining assessment categories such as Category:High-importance carnivorous plant articles were deleted today (with rational "G6: inactive project no longer assesses articles").

While the talk page for Carnivorous plants was dead, articles were actively being assessed; I discovered the situation today when I came across a new Drosera article and tried to assess it.

I remove the inactive tag from the assessment banner template. I had started to recreate categories, but wasn't sure if that was the best way forward. Three subprojects (Carnivorous plants, Banksia and Hypericaceae) have tagged (essentially) all articles in their scope, with the subproject banners also adding assessment categories for ths project. In my opinion, it would've been better if the subprojects had been created as work groups; Article Alerts is a useful report, and it doesn't pick up articles in subprojects.

I suppose it would be pretty simple to change the Carnivorous plant banner so it stopped trying to place articles in (now deleted) assessment categories for Carnivorous plants and have the template put everything in a Plant assessment category. But it wouldn't be too difficult to recreate the deleted categories either.

I am concerned by the deletion process that was in play. I would've thought that there was a consensus that articles should have quality assessment (over the alternative that articles should NOT have quality assessment). When there is only one banner providing assessment and it is disabled, the article effectively becomes unassessed. I'm sure there are a number of niche topics at Wikipedia that are only assessed by a single no-longer active WikiProject. I'll bring up my concerns not-specific to plants in more appropriate forums and will add links to those discussions once I've started them. Plantdrew (talk) 02:18, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

They are working on getting rid of Wikiprojects they way they did with Portals and Books, it seems. They already inactivated and removed the quality assessments for WP Poultry and WP Biota of Great Britain and Ireland, among others. I think it’s weird that, even if a project is inactive, that you would want to spend effort to make it harder for some new editor to give it some life. --awkwafaba (📥) 02:56, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Who is the "they" here, please? This is of great concern, and I see no rationale for removing WikiProject quality assessments, even if a project is currently in a hiatus. If they've done a good job, then there's little more needs to be done; if they've not completed their work, then others may well come along later and help complete that task. How widespread is this problem that you're reporting? Nick Moyes (talk) 21:50, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
@Nick Moyes: it looks like a major portion of the deletion work is being conducted by @UnitedStatesian: if I see correctly? I agree the three subprojects (Banksia, Carnivorous plants, and Hypericaceae) would be better maintained as wikiproject task forces, that way even when there isn]t much happening they have the oversight of WP:plants to umbrella under. Perhaps UnitedStatesian would be amenable to transforming the deleted materials into task force pages instead.--Kevmin § 22:17, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for the ping; A couple points of clarification: this is not getting rid of WikiProjects. It is focusing editor efforts on the active WikiProjects (of which there are nearly 1,000), and which are of course critical to the quality of the encyclopedia. Yes, I am, along with other editors, Wikignoming the work to tag for speedy deletion non-populated categories for inactive projects, and to ensure each banner template matches the status of the corresponding project. But at the same time if a group of editors want to reactivate a project, I am (along with other editors participating in Wikipedia:WikiProject Council) more than happy to help in that effort, and with any project restructurings (such as converting projects to taskforces). I'll happily recreate categories, or anything else that is needed, just let me know. Also note that every talkpage still has the needed code for repopulating the categories; I have not "unassessed" any article. Anything else, let me know. UnitedStatesian (talk) 23:21, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
@Kevmin Thank you. I would definitely support your suggestion as a sensible alternative. My own pet project WP:ALPS is currently a task force of WP:MOUNTAINS, even though I would personally prefer it to be a separate project, with a much wider remit. I believe @UnitedStatesian is a good faith editor, and both they and I would hate to see the issues caused by BHG resurfacing on WikiProjects. It would be best if they would make clear their concerns on the appropriate 'parent' Project and then wait for responses before taking action which would then take a lot of effort to reinstate. Nick Moyes (talk) 23:23, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
But just to reiterate: no action takes "a lot of effort to reinstate." And any group of editors who feels such effort daunting should have one of said group reach out to me or to another member of Wikipedia:WikiProject Council for assistance. UnitedStatesian (talk) 23:33, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
I would also prefer that these be made into Task Forces, but failing that they should be deleted. Abductive (reasoning) 08:16, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
That’s rather dramatic. In any event, what to people mean, in practice, when they want these to be task forces instead of subprojects? A name change and added to the WPPlants talk template? Because they can be added to the talk template no matter what their status. There are projects already included in parent project talk templates, and there are task forces with independent talk templates. Folks here in the Tree of Life projects may have their favorite TFs and subprojects, but there is a solid core of us who work on all the branches. We like the categorization and order that the subprojects and TFs provide, otherwise the maintenance categories get too large. So elucidate what you actually mean when you want conversion to task forces. --awkwafaba (📥) 12:13, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
My reason is purely practical; as WikiProjects they interfere with my efforts to Importance-Assess large numbers of articles, while as Task Forces they don't. Back in 2019, I reassessed about 20,000 articles. Abductive (reasoning) 19:26, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
@Abductive: Can you explain further? Is it that you want fewer categories, i.e. all articles in Category:Low-importance plant articles ( 77,809 ), as opposed to some in Category:Low-importance plant articles ( 77,809 ) and some in Category:Low-importance carnivorous plant articles ( 712 )? because they can have separate importance ratings even if they are in the same talk template. --awkwafaba (📥) 15:47, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
No, its not about that. While doing each assessment it slowed the process down. I already did all the plants, so it's not an issue here, but I would prefer to see all dead WikiProjects deleted or made into Task Forces, across Wikipedia. Abductive (reasoning) 18:43, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Merge discussion for Ghughua Fossil Park & Mandla Plant Fossils National ParkEdit

From what I can find Mandla Plant Fossils National Park seems to be a made up park, probably created by the initial article author, A quick look at google maps shows that the purported location of the park is actually the location of the Ghughua Fossil Park. I suggest either wholesale deletion of this article, or redirection and history merge into Ghughua Fossil Park. I'm notifying recent editors of that article and relevant wkiprojects.--Kevmin § 01:40, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

After some web searching, I first thought that they were alternative names (rather than one being made up), but they seem to be distinct. (100km apart, in adjacent districts (Dindori and Mandla)). See here. Mandla Fossil Park has a web footprint, but I haven't found any official documentation (yet). Lavateraguy (talk) 13:10, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
Though I don't understand how to reconcile the article creation date (2005) with the date of the Hindustan Times article (2020). Lavateraguy (talk) 13:12, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
On looking again, 2020 is the date the article was last updated; I don't see a statement as to when it was originally written. Lavateraguy (talk) 13:15, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
we should continue this discussion at the merge proposal.--Kevmin § 15:39, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
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