Talk:List of rape victims from ancient history and mythology

Susanna

The article (and Daniel Chapter 14) says that Susanna was threatened with rape, not that she was raped. Should she really be on this list? She shouldn't, because rape must be defined clearly, otherwise it becomes a joke. Daphnis was listed as a rape victim of Gnathon. But his story only says that Gnathon wanted to make him his lover and asked his boss to sell Daphnis to him as a slave. That's not rape. Failing to define rape is insulting to real victims of this despicable crime, they will end up being disbelieved.

Ref tag

Simon Burchell tagged this list as unverified, but it seems to me that these are uncontroversial and well-established items. If there is any entry in particular that causes the raising of eye brows, please explain. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 14:49, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

History

The coupling with mythology indicates an emphasis on older history, which made Andrea Dworkin - died in 2005, event occurred in 1999 - stand out as comparatively very recent. That is my reasoning for reverting the addition. If we are to include recent history, we would presumably have to include a large number of people, even if we excluded BLPs. That strikes me as counterproductive, partly because mythological narratives have an additional level of import (symbolic, culturally defining, religious) that is tied to their antiquity. However, we could possibly subdivide the list. Yngvadottir (talk) 03:28, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for starting this discussion, Yngvadottir. I agree that the antiquity of the other entries, combined with the mythological nature of many, made the addition of Dworkin startling. Any cutoff we make will be arbitrary, and I'm not sure how we decide it - except that I hope we will all be agreed that BLPs must be excluded from this list. LadyofShalott 03:36, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, arbitrary--I hope that common sense can prevail. I'd say a cut-off point will need to be at least a hundred years ago. Drmies (talk) 18:42, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Subdividing is a useful idea and easier than creating two lists, which isn't necessary since this list is not presently close to being so long as to require splitting. The criteria for relatively modern cases should include that the claim should be stable in the article to which linked, so that weight is established there by editors who probably know more about the subject of the article to which linked. Stability in the article can be established by it's having been in the article for at least a week. With Dworkin, controversy arose around the rape because it directly related to her feminist work before and after and was, I think, discussed in several sources. It's not weighty in the way ancient myth can be but is in the sense of contributing to modern history, especially for probably having a meaning different from those of ancient myths. Nick Levinson (talk) 02:22, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

-- The article title clearly says ancient history not medieval or early modern. There are far too many rapes in history to interject irrelevant ones into this article. Start a new article if you want to catalogue all rapes ever (not sure that such an article would pass Wiki's internal tests). Chris Weimer (talk) 01:38, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

There are 14 points. That's a pretty darned stubby list to me. So why fret about "all rapes ever"? Expanding the article seems like a better idea than creating even more stubby lists.

Peter ^Isotalo 19:21, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

• Chris Weimer, the concern is not with your judgment or even the Lady's, but with the application of the BLP. This article has a long history. Gentileschi is ancient enough for our purposes--meaning, no one is going to get upset over her identification as a victim of rape. Propose a different title or whatever, I don't care, but don't go running around like a bull in a China shop. In the meantime I'm restoring Gentileschi, and I suggest you try a more courteous approach. Drmies (talk) 22:00, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Title of article

If the content was only "rape victims from ancient history and mythology" the list would not include several from modern history e.g. Artemisia Gentileschi. The present content would need a title including "rape victims from mythology and history (before the 18th century)".--Johnsoniensis (talk) 15:07, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

• I've restored Rogneda, noting the 10th-century date. That's quite ancient enough for most purposes. I think the list could safely go through the Middle Ages, but I agree that the other two removed were a bit recent. However, teh fundamental problem is that this was originally List of rape victims from history and mythology - here is the edit where the move to the current title was made. As can be seen above, the discussion about where to place the cut-off was never finished. I think we should consider moving it back to the old title and adding a hatnote to the effect that "history" excludes modern history, which is covered in the other article - with link. Alternatively, how about List of rape victims from mythology and early history - splendidly vague, but allows us to squeeze in the Renaissance? Yngvadottir (talk) 19:19, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

• Do we have a whole slew of these rape lists? If not, how about reverting to just "history" and wait for the list to actually fill up before haggling about cut-offs? Peter ^Isotalo 19:23, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

• • That would be my preferred choice, but would require the hatnote - see above, someone added a very recent one, we can't have BLPs or recent deaths being added. Yngvadottir (talk) 19:31, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

The title of this list is under discussion at User talk:Drmies#List of rape victims from ancient history and mythology. Nick Levinson (talk) 18:09, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

That discussion was archived to User talk:Drmies/Archive 73#List of rape victims from ancient history and mythology. LadyofShalott 00:02, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Western focus

User:Drmies reverted my {{Globalize}} hatnote with the following message:

the way to go about this is to add those that you think broaden the scope--adding to a list is easy and requires no rewrite

This is an excellent suggestion except that I don't know enough about world mythology to do so; my relevant knowledge consists of "most of the world is not Greece" and "the rest of the world also has mythology".

Please advise.

Sonata Green (talk) 20:17, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Calypso

The alleged rape of Odysseus by Calypso looks problematic, not just because it's a woman allegedly raping a man, but looking at her article it's not clear if there was any serious coercion involved. PatGallacher (talk) 22:58, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

• He was her prisoner. Sex with someone one is keeping prisoner may be presumed nonconsensual by default, at least under a modern understanding of consent. I'm not a classicist and have no insight into whether the situation would have been seen that way by Homer and his contemporaries. Sonata Green (talk) 17:36, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

• • Was that what he told Penelope when he got home? PatGallacher (talk) 17:43, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

• • • That's a very interesting original interpretation and you should write it up somewhere. — Sonata Green (talk) 00:23, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Goewin

Suggest adding, from Welsh mythology: Goewin, foot-holder to king Math fab Mathonwy, raped by Math's nephews Gwydion and Gilfaethwy. —Tamfang (talk) 22:01, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Sabine Women

They were not raped in the sense of violation, but kidnapping.Manfariel (talk) 17:22, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Thetis

She was not raped. An article on the internet suggests she was raped, but the original myth does not.

"Chiron, therefore, having advised Peleus to seize her and hold her fast in spite of her shape-shifting, he watched his chance and carried her off, and though she turned, now into fire, now into water, and now into a beast, he did not let her go till he saw that she had resumed her former shape. And he married her on Pelion, and there the gods celebrated the marriage with feast and song" Apollodorus, Library 3.13

Peleus carrying Thetis while she was changing shape and releasing her when she resumed her former shape is rape? I thought rape is sexual assault. Carrying someone is assault but not sexual assault. And in case of Thetis it wasn't even assault, it was a game. He released her when she resumed her original form and still proceeded to marry him.Thetis was actually in love:

"Others again relate, that a marine divinity appeared to Peleus on Mount Pelion, and testified her love to him, but without revealing herself to him. Peleus, however, who saw her playing with dolphins, recognised the goddess, and henceforth shunned her presence. But she encouraged him, reminding him of the love of Eos to Tithonus, of Aphrodite to Anchises, &c., and promised to present him with a son who should be more illustrious than any mortal. (Philostratus Heroikos 19. 1.)Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:1388:4093:ECE4:6C41:34FD:BAD4:41BE (talk) 05:58, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Problem with References

Reference 1: In some versions of the story, Zeus seduces Leda and she submits willingly. In others, such as that retold in William Butler Yeats' "Leda and the Swan", he rapes her: Romigh, Maggie (2007). Since the article is List of rape victims from ancient history and mythology and Leda is a rape victim in a William Butler Yeats' retelling, while she is seduced in her ancient myths, why does she appear in this article? Persephone was raped by Ares in a modern fanfiction. Should we add this detail too? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:1388:4093:ECE4:6C41:34FD:BAD4:41BE (talk) 06:08, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Delete this page?

Is there educational value in a list of this kind? It strikes me as offensive to sexual assault survivors, trivializing these violent acts as factoids without context. The language used to describe them is voyeuristic and out of date. I would weight the necessity of a page collating sexual assaults to the damage it does to survivors and national conversations about rape culture. 2601:643:8581:510:0:0:0:1652 (talk) 05:45, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

A sensitive debate, but this article could be a reminder of the widespread nature of sexual assault, e.g. it could come as a surprise to some people to see the number of people Zeus is supposed to have raped, yet the Greeks still regarded him as a figure to be respected and worshipped. PatGallacher (talk) 16:05, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

I think this article has educational value, because these names and references are pervasive in everyday modern life. I just added two entries to this article (Io and Europa) because of the article on the four large, diverse and active Galilean moons of the planet Jupiter. These moons are of increasing scientific and general interest as more missions and discoveries are made. All four moons are named after "lovers of Zeus" according to that article, but in fact these mythological humans (three female and one male) were all abducted and raped by Zeus. I will eventually change the Galilean moons article to more correctly describe the origin of the names, assuming my additions are factually accurate according to classicists. Dan Shearer (talk) 12:20, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

What's up with this page?

Two things I want to talk about:

One, why is there a Roman section if the subject is already included in the Greek one? For example, Caeneus is included in the Roman section "in Ovid's version" implying it's a unique Roman take and thus he's among the Romans, but then he also shows up in the Greek section as well, meaning there's no difference, so why is he in both given that he is a Greek hero?

Secondly, the sheer nature of this page feels a bit misguided as a whole. Even without taking into account nuances of culture/language/translation, this list feels hollow when you see it cites no sources or studies of its own, and simply tells the reader to check the articles themselves for citations and sources, but then some of the articles themselves do not support this particular reading. Anyone can add *any* two characters and simply say "in some versions, check the article that may or may not support this claim." The fact that it doesn't go deep on the subject or any of the examples offered, trivializing those instances as mere bullet points on a shop list, make it look like it has very poor educational value.

Moreover, this list seems to treat SA and rape as the same, which I think is a bit offensive. Rape should be defined clearly. Deiadameian (talk) 18:57, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. This entire page should have had each entry sourced. I am questioning what the actual value of a page such as this is – will people really come searching for all instances of someone being raped anywhere in any mythology or ancient history? That seems an extremely loose requirement for entry, worsened by the fact that no clear definition of what constitutes rape seems to be followed. – Michael Aurel (talk) 01:13, 24 May 2023 (UTC)