Talk:Abe Martin (Illinois coach)

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Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Abe Martin (American football) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 20:46, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Abe Martin (American football) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 19:16, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 1 September 2020

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus for any specified resolution. Although I believe that there is a consensus that the current setup should change, I do not see a consensus supporting any of the many proposed possible resolutions. I am therefore closing this as no consensus at this time. BD2412 T 23:00, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

• Glenn Martin (coach) → Abe Martin (?)
• Abe Martin (American football) → Abe Martin (??)

– Subject was known to the public and referenced strictly as "Abe Martin" after the then-very popular Abe Martin (comic strip). Here is Abe Martin (1906–1997) at www.justsportsstats.com. Here is Glenn "Abe" Martin at Saluki Hall of Fame. Here is Glenn (Abe) Martin at FB-Guide-Records.pdf. Here is Abe Martin at Pro Football Reference. Here is Glenn "Abe" Martin in Southern Illinois University at 150 Years: Growth, Accomplishments, and Challenges. Here is Glenn "Abe" Martin at ABCA Hall of Fame. Here is Martin, Glenn Abe at JOHPER: Journal of Health, Physical Education, Recreation, Volume 18. Also, here is his gravesite, with the gravestone engraved "MARTIN GLENN "ABE"". In fact, nowhere is he indicated as simply "Glenn Martin". The field at Southern Illinois University is Abe Martin Field, not "Glenn Martin Field". If consensus skews towards preference for the form with the quotation marks, Glenn "Abe" Martin, the short form with the birth year, Abe Martin (coach, born 1906), or the long form with the birth year, Abe Martin (football coach, born 1906), I would also support any of those forms for the main header. He is not to be confused with his contemporary, Texas football coach Othol Hershel “Abe” Martin (1908–1979), also nicknamed for the comic strip, whose gravestone, depicted here, is engraved "MARTIN OTHOL H. "ABE"". Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 04:39, 1 September 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Sceptre (talk) 21:03, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

• Comment: Note that two relevant recent RM discussions are recorded at Talk:Abe Martin (American football). The other Abe Martin was also a coach. —BarrelProof (talk) 05:29, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

In addition to the already-mentioned alternatives — Glenn "Abe" Martin, Abe Martin (coach, born 1906) and Abe Martin (football coach, born 1906), I would also support two additional forms — Abe Martin (American football, born 1906) and Abe Martin (American football, Illinois), whichever of these forms is preferred by consensus. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 16:27, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose as proposed. If, as the proposer said, he is not to be confused with the other Abe Martin who was a coach, then we shouldn't use the WP:INCDAB name that was proposed. Support double parenthetical disambiguation. —BarrelProof (talk) 16:10, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

• Neutral with regard to original proposal of Abe Martin (coach), even though it would require adding a hatnote to distinguish this person from Abe Martin (American football), as either title is appropriate, but oppose any of the other alternatives as unnecessary WP:OVERPRECISION. - Station1 (talk) 08:35, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
• Comment: I originally closed this as moved; after discussion, I've agreed to reopen it. I'm also listing the article Abe Martin (American football) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), as what happens to this article affects that article too. Sceptre (talk) 21:01, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
  • I'm afraid this is now very confusing. This article was at Glenn Martin (coach) when the RM was opened, and the proposal was to move to Abe Martin (coach), during the time all comments before 12 Sept were written. Ideally this article should be moved back to [remain at] Glenn Martin (coach) as that title is the least ambiguous with Abe Martin (American football) (a different person). Glenn Martin was known as both "Glenn" and "Abe", often both names being used together, so "Glenn" qualifies per WP:NATURAL. Glenn "Abe" Martin is another possibility, as an exception, even though that style is generally discouraged per WP:NICKNAME. The most important thing, however, is to not use "American football" as a disambiguator, because Glenn Martin is not primarily known for that sport, and because it makes the title more ambiguous with the other Abe Martin who was notable only for football. Glenn coached basketball and baseball as well as football, and if any of those is primary it would be baseball. Station1 (talk) 07:24, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
    • I've reverted my own move; it was a momentary lapse that made me forget. Apologies for that. :) Sceptre (talk) 14:00, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

I must take issue with the statement that "Glenn Martin was known as both "Glenn" and "Abe", often both names being used together, so "Glenn" qualifies per WP:NATURAL", with the implication being that, as a result, Glenn "Abe" Martin was less of an "Abe Martin" than Othol Hershel “Abe” Martin who is then presumed to be the only legitimate holder of the "Abe Martin" name. In fact, the main title header of Othol Martin's entry at Find a Grave depicts the full name "Othol Hershel “Abe” Martin" and the tombstone itself is engraved "MARTIN OTHOL H. "ABE"".

Ultimately, as far as WP:NATURAL is concerned, "Abe Martin (American football)" still requires the parenthetical qualifier "(American football)" while, to carry the argument to its natural conclusion, neither Othol Martin nor Othol H. Martin nor Othol Hershel Martin require a parenthetical qualifier therefore, one could argue, his main header should be one of those WP:NATURAL alternatives rather than the qualifier-burdened Abe Martin (American football). —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 15:38, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

If the impression persists that Abe Martin (coach, born 1906) and Abe Martin (coach, born 1908) cause confusion because of the closeness of the birth years, the clearer alternative might be Abe Martin (coach, Illinois) and Abe Martin (coach, Texas). The "Abe Martin" sports venue named after Glenn Martin is indeed in Illinois and the "Abe Martin" sports venue named after Othol Martin is indeed in Texas. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 15:56, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

I did not intend and do not see any implication that one person is more entitled to the "Abe" than the other, but agree that if Othol is moved to Othol Martin or variation per WP:NATURAL, that would be the least ambiguous way of titling these articles. Both articles would still be listed on the Abe Martin dab page. Station1 (talk) 17:21, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

My intention in the previous comment was to highlight the fact that if there is no compromise and this RM closes as "no consensus" or "not moved", then Othol Martin remains by default as Abe Martin (American football) and Glenn Martin remains by default as Glenn Martin (coach), thus leaving Othol, but not Glenn, as the one entitled to the "Abe" name. Ultimately, I would support any of the previously mentioned compromises to equalize the two coaches' names including, as you mentioned, retaining Glenn Martin (coach) and moving Abe Martin (American football) to Othol Martin, thus discarding his qualifier per WP:NATURAL, but retaining both men as "Abe Martin" on the Abe Martin dab page. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 23:34, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, we should do something to ensure adequate disambiguation of the resulting titles. —BarrelProof (talk) 01:41, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

It should be also reiterated that the current main title header for Othol "Abe" Martin — Abe Martin (American football) — represents incomplete disambiguation and should redirect to the Abe Martin disambiguation page since both Othol "Abe" Martin and Glenn "Abe" Martin were American football players and subsequently American football coaches. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 15:03, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

So perhaps the best solution is to leave this article where it is, move Abe Martin (American football) to Othol Martin, and redirect Abe Martin (American football) to the dab page after incoming wikilinks are fixed. Station1 (talk) 18:37, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

I would support any reasonable resolution, including Abe Martin (American football) → Othol Martin. It has been two weeks (September 16) since anyone posted a comment here so if you agree to such a move and there are no opposing views, let us hope this RM can be finally closed. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 19:13, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

I don't really think I like using Othol Martin and Glenn Martin (coach), since AFAIK, neither of these people were widely known by those names. I would prefer some form of double disambiguation. If not by birth date, perhaps it could be by state. One of them had a career that was very concentrated in Texas and the other one in Illinois, so I suggest using "Abe Martin (American football, Texas)" and "Abe Martin (American football, Illinois)" or "Abe Martin (American football in Texas)" and "Abe Martin (American football in Illinois)". I am surprised to see that the articles briefly used the first of those suggestions recently and that this was in an early comment of 1 September 2020 by Roman Spinner. —BarrelProof (talk) 17:48, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

The problem is that Glenn Martin was known for multiple sports, perhaps primarily baseball, but certainly not primarily football. By qualifying both with "American football" the titles are more ambiguous, not less. Also, Glenn Martin was in fact widely known as both Glenn and Abe, at least accoriding to the sources we have. Station1 (talk) 20:34, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Once again, if we cannot reach consensus and Othol "Abe" Martin remains as Abe Martin (American football) and Glenn "Abe" Martin remains as Glenn Martin (coach) then we would be, in fact, conceding that Othol is entitled to the "Abe" moniker, while Glenn is not entitled. Both men started as American football players and then became longtime coaches — Othol coached American football players, while Glenn coached American football players, basketball players and baseball players.

Since both men were coaches for decades, perhaps we can agree upon either the standard Abe Martin (coach, born 1906) and Abe Martin (coach, born 1908) or, since the birth years are so close together, the somewhat less standard Abe Martin (coach, Illinois) and Abe Martin (coach, Texas). —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 22:52, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Abe Martin (coach, Illinois) and Abe Martin (coach, Texas) seems OK to me. My impression is that Glenn is more commonly known as Abe than as Glenn (e.g. since there is an Abe Martin Field named after him). —BarrelProof (talk) 22:37, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Hopefully, we can arrive at a consensus if there is no objection to those forms. To recapitulate, since both men played American football and were longtime coaches, the forms Abe Martin (American football) and Abe Martin (coach) would apply to both of them and thus represent incomplete disambiguation. As for conciseness, Abe Martin (American football), the current incompletely disambiguated main header for Othol "Abe" Martin, has 30 characters and spaces, while the proposed alternative for him, Abe Martin (coach, Texas) has only 25 characters and spaces.

Also, regarding whether Othol Hershel "Abe" Martin was definitively known as "Abe", while Morris Glenn "Abe" Martin was not as definitively known as "Abe" — both men had "Abe Martin" sports fields named after them, both men are listed as "Abe Martin" in sports databases and both men have "Abe" on their tombstones. It would thus seem that both have an equal claim to posthumous persistence as "Abe" in their respective main title headers. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 00:26, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Since there have been no objections to the proposed moves of Glenn Martin (coach) → Abe Martin (coach, Illinois) and Abe Martin (American football) → Abe Martin (coach, Texas), each of which accurately and concisely describes each man, respectively and, moreover, avoids incomplete disambiguation, I hope that this RM can be finally resolved. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 14:59, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

I still prefer Glenn Martin (coach) and Othol Martin for reasons mentioned, but I'll be satisfied with whatever some disinterested admin eventually decides. Station1 (talk) 05:35, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Hoping for a resolution, I would support either the matching pair of Glenn Martin (coach) and Othol Martin or the matching pair of Abe Martin (coach, Illinois) and Abe Martin (coach, Texas), as ultimately chosen by the closing admin. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 21:08, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

I continue to prefer the approach using Abe Martin (coach, Illinois) and Abe Martin (coach, Texas). It seems like no disinterested suitable closer is paying attention to this RM. It's been opened for nearly two months and it was relisted 6 weeks ago. If there is no objection, I plan to close this myself after it hits the two month mark per WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY. —BarrelProof (talk) 16:44, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Please don't. This definitely needs a fresh and unbiased set of eyes. Some brave person will show up sooner or later. Station1 (talk) 19:12, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Later, apparently. — BarrelProof (talk) 15:02, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 8 September 2020

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Withdrawn by nominator. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 22:09, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

Glenn Martin (coach) → Abe Martin (coach, born 1906) – This is a continuation of Talk:Glenn Martin (coach)#Requested move 1 September 2020, directly above. Since that RM was closed and the close reverted within two hours, there is no official close, thus leaving an opening for this RM to accept additional votes. As presented in the September 1 RM, subject was known to the public as "Abe Martin", not as "Glenn Martin" and the Illinois field named after him was indeed named "Abe Martin Field", not "Glenn Martin Field" [other links for the Illinois "Abe Martin" are in the September 1 RM]. The reason this coach is being referred to as the "Illinois Abe Martin" is to differentiate him from his contemporary, "Texas Abe Martin", a coach who also has a field named after him, but in Texas. Since one of the participants in the September 1 RM cast an "Oppose" vote on the basis of "Abe Martin (coach)" being an incomplete disambiguation, this repeat RM is adding the Illinois coach's birth year, this enabling Abe Martin (coach) to become a redirect to the Abe Martin disambiguation page which lists two coaches named Abe Martin, Abe Martin (coach, born 1906) and Abe Martin (coach, born 1908). Since it has been pointed out by at least one participant that since the two coaches were contemporaries, their birth years, which are standard in sports disambiguations, are too close for easy identification. A number of alternatives may be therefore proposed (see September 1 RM), including Abe Martin (Illinois coach), thus disambiguating him from Abe Martin (Texas coach). — Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:12, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

• Comment - there may have been some misunderstanding here... I reverted the moves because I had Abe_Martin_(American_football) on my watchlist, but there was no indication at Talk:Abe_Martin_(American_football) that any move was being proposed for that page. The last entry on the talk page is the move request of January, which I opposed at the time, and I've only just seen the 1 September RM now. Looking at it again, I don't know really. I guess the problem is that from Abe_Martin_(American_football), and as people say above, it looks like that other guy really was predominantly a coach as well. Differentiating by their first names is nice, but if Glenn Martin is really known almost exclusively as Abe too then that doesn't help us. So maybe I'm not averse to the move after all. It needs to be fashioned as a multipage RM though. We shouldn't be including pages in a move that don't get notified on their talk pages. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 20:28, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

I appreciate your reply and would gladly withdraw this just-opened RM if you agree to let stand Sceptre's closure of the September 1 RM on this page. I certainly understand that you may not agree to Sceptre's other analogous move (Abe Martin (American football) → Abe Martin (American football, Texas)), but perhaps you could let that move also remain to at least determine if any Wikipedian objects to the move of the Texan's page. Whatever your decision, I would be happy just to see the move on this page completed. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:57, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

• Comment: I'm not averse to any formulation, to be honest; I moved the other page solely to be consistent with WP:PDAB. Sceptre (talk) 21:33, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
• OK fine, let's just do it that way then. I'll withdraw my earlier objections and you can reinstate Sceptre's close and withdraw this one as moot. Hopefully everybody will be fine with that. And apologies for confusing things. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 21:55, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
• My thanks to both of you for a satisfactory resolution. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 22:09, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 21 November 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Consensus to move (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 18:27, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

---

• Glenn Martin (coach) → Abe Martin (Illinois coach)
• Abe Martin (American football) → Abe Martin (Texas coach)

– Both of these men are best known as "Abe Martin". Both of them had an "Abe Martin Field" (or "Abe Martin Stadium") named after them. Both of them were coaches of American football. One of them had a career focused in Illinois and the other in Texas. In the RM of 1 September 2020 (closed on 11 November 2020), we seemed to have a consensus for some move, but didn't settle on agreed names. Today I notice several new moves by BD2412, such as the move of James Wilson (Pennsylvania) to James Wilson (Pennsylvania politician), that inspire me to propose names of a similar form. These names were also suggested as alternatives by Roman Spinner in the withdrawn RM of 8 September 2020. The current status does not seem at all satisfactory, due to the ambiguity of Abe Martin (American football) and the fact that the opening sentence of the Glenn Martin (coach) article says he was better known as "Abe Martin". Neither of these men had "Abe Martin" on their birth certificates, but both (according to the articles) are better known by that name. Also note the previous RM discussions at Talk:Abe Martin (American football) as well as those at Talk:Glenn Martin (coach). — BarrelProof (talk) 16:40, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Inserted "(or 'Abe Martin Stadium')" above. — BarrelProof (talk) 23:36, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

@Sceptre, Station1, Amakuru, Paintspot, Calidum, Crouch, Swale, A1Cafel, Justus Nussbaum, Steel1943, Necrothesp, Lepricavark, and Jweiss11: Let's talk about this some more. — BarrelProof (talk) 16:40, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

• Support. Seems OK to me. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 17:03, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
• Support 2nd as ambiguous disambiguator, 72 v 17[[1]] isn't likely sufficient for a PDAB. No comment on 1st. Blimey what a lot of move requests this article has been though, lets try to settle it here. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:46, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
• Support per nomination which seems to represent the most apt and succinct forms. My thanks to BarrelProof for submitting these nominations with the hope that consensus may be finally achieved regarding the names by which both men were best known. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 18:51, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
• Comment. Even if there were evidence that they were "best known" as Abe Martin, WP:NATURAL suggests using other common names where available, over artificial qualifiers. There's no question that the scant available sources refer to them as Glenn "Abe" Martin and Othol "Abe" Martin or Othol Hershel "Abe" Martin.[2] [3] [4] [5] The proposal makes the titles more ambiguous, not less so, for anyone who doesn't already know what state they're from. The better choices are either Glenn Martin (coach) and Othol Martin, or Glenn "Abe" Martin and Othol "Abe" Martin, which are already redirects, and let the Abe Martin dab page direct people who are searching for "Abe". Station1 (talk) 18:55, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Since both men played American football and coached American football, thus making "Abe Martin (American football)" incomplete disambiguation, I would be glad to support any other alternative, but a full name version of Morris Glenn "Abe" Martin and Othol Hershel "Abe" Martin had been previously rejected at Talk:Abe Martin (American football)#Requested move 28 August 2019. If the shorter versions of simply Glenn "Abe" Martin and Othol "Abe" Martin or alternatively Glenn Martin (coach) and Othol Martin could gain consensus, I would be also happy to support either of those pairs as long we could finally resolve this matter. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:13, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

• My moves of articles with state-only disambiguators are premised solely on the fact that state-only disambiguators are disfavored. On the question at hand, I think that the best outcome would be to WP:IAR on nicknames and use Glenn "Abe" Martin and Othol "Abe" Martin. BD2412 T 02:35, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Although, I have a feeling there is a better or preferred disambiguator to the state they come from.--Ortizesp (talk) 07:27, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.