Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anthroponymy/Archive 6

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Beginning

Hello to everyone that is joining this WikiProject.

I had originally proposed this WikiProject months ago, but I only recently decided to set something up this past week. I think this project is necessary for Wikipedia because of the large amount of articles currently on wikipedia that deal with human names and the lack of coordination among these articles.

Please feel free to take as much responsibility in managing this project as you want because I am probably too busy to helm this project myself. Also please state below any ideas you have that you think will help improve Anthroponymy-related articles. Best regards, Remember 02:43, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Archives

• Archive 1: The WikiProject itself — creation of the WikiProject; the WikiProject Council; formatting/content of WikProject pages (not articles); relationship to other WikiProjects (except WikiProject Disambiguation, which is covered in Archive 4)
• Archive 2: WikiProject Templates
• Archive 3: Individual Names / Individual Articles — discussion of individual articles or small closely related articles in a group.
• Archive 4: Anthroponymy and Disambiguation — relationship between name articles and disambiguation pages; relationship between WikiProject Anthroponymy and WikiProject Disambiguation
• Archive 5: Anthroponymy article style and content — including article Assessment and content-supporting citation sources

Archives format discussion

I have begun down a path of topical archives rather than time-order archives. I am not adamant about this approach and a discussion of what approach would serve the purposes of the Project best would be good. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 02:03, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Completed first entry on my first WikiProject

Hello. After 6 months of Wiki editing, I decided to make Anthroponymy my first WikiProject. I started today by editing the Woodson article, and creating the Woodson (surname) article. Had a problem with a Bot sending me an error message in the midst of this process, but I think I overcame the problem, though the Bot's error message is still lurking on my Talk page. Can an Admin or someone with more experience on Wikiprojects take a look at what I did with Woodson and Woodson (surname), then give me feedback? Thank you. Rosiestep (talk) 22:48, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Thanks for joining the project. Remember (talk) 23:03, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Reply Thank you, Remember. Rosiestep (talk) 00:18, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, welcome! Just splitting the list of people with the surname from the disambiguation page is useful in itself. Here are some suggestions for further improvement as requested:

• Either delete the redlinked line, or search for the subject and see if it exists under another name e.g. without the middle name or "Jr" in which case you can fix it, or make sure that the subject has been added at Requested Articles.
• Add nationality for everyone, and the years of birth & death where given in the main article (see note 1 below). Zacharias (surname) is an example that I worked on.
• Reduce links to one per entry. This is standard style for disambiguation pages, and I think it is best in lists of names too.
• Simplify the heading "first, middle or nickname" to "given name".
• In the case of Woodson, as the given names are a 'recycled' use of the surname, I'd have put them on the same page as the surnames and titled it Woodson (name). You can still do this yourself, using the "move" tab at the top to rename the new article you just created. Give it both templates, {{given name}} as well as {{surname}}.
• When you are editing, there is a panel (below) with a list of accented characters, so you can enter André properly instead of relying on the redirect.
• Add something on the original meaning of the surname, even though it's perhaps not very interesting in this case e.g. son of [[Wood (surname)|Wood]]?

Note 1: If you don't use WP:POPUPS yet, I highly recommend it. You can preview the start of articles and copy info from there without actually opening the page. POPUPS is also very useful for one-click reverting of vandalism, and you will have plenty of chances to do that if you put Name pages on your watchlist!
Thanks again! - Fayenatic (talk) 00:03, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Reply Thank you, Fayenaticlondon. This was very helpful! No, I haven't used WP:POPUPS but I'm ready to try new wiki things. Rosiestep (talk) 00:18, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

lists of people with a given name

I recently discovered that Benjamin (disambiguation) currently lists several dozen people of that given name, both real and fictional, while Benjamin (name) also has a handful of examples. In my opinion only one of the two pages should be used to list such entries. Is there a policy on this? Btyner (talk) 02:23, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

No formal policy here as of yet. But we should probably develop one with work from the disambiguation project. Remember (talk) 15:31, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

There is certainly a policy for disambiguation pages: they should only list people who are widely known simply by the name in the article title, in this case Benjamin. It's at WP:MOSDAB#Given names or surnames. I've moved the list of people with that surname to Benjamin (name). I have no problem with given name and surname sharing a page; perhaps we could discuss that here. - Fayenatic (talk) 22:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I did some follow-up work to Benjamin, Benjamin (name), and Benjamin (disambiguation). Let me know if there's a problem. Thanks. Rosiestep (talk) 23:59, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Great job. Keep it up. Remember (talk) 03:08, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, thanks for joining this project! As for the list that one of you removed from the disambiguation page: it seems to me that people known by that name alone, e.g. rulers & saints, should be on BOTH the disambiguation page and the name page. - Fayenatic (talk) 09:39, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Returning to the topic of this heading: we should probably formulate an indicative policy as to when to have a list of people with a name, and when to have none as it would be too long - e.g. the list just removed from Jennifer (given name). There are others which are much longer, sectioned by vocation, e.g. David (name). - Fayenatic (talk) 09:39, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Agree. Any proposals? Remember (talk) 15:44, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I propose that if there are many existing articles about people with given name X, then

1. A separate article called List of people named X should be created to list them

2. X, X (name), X (disambiguation), etc if they exist should not include such a list but instead link to List of people named X

Note that this proposal is completely independent of the existence of X (name), though I would conjecture that it is rare for a name to be notable enough to warrant its own article but yet fail the hypothesis in bold above. Btyner (talk) 00:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I've been editing a few "name" pages and the biggest flaw with them seems to be overuse of listing people with that name. It does make sense in some places to have a list (for example, the list of mainly popes in Gregory), but generally for any name that is at all common it's far too cumbersome and non-encyclopedial. Jennifer is absolutely way too popular a name to distinguish notability on. A search for "Jennifer" of the site in Google gives 25,400 results [1]. How could we possibly determine who is notable enough to be included on the Jennifer page? Further, one guideline does give some indication of the intent on this specific point: "unless they are very frequently referred to simply by the single name (e.g., Elvis, Shakespeare)". While that clearly is speaking of creating pages for specific people, the same justification can be applied here, I think. --Kickstart70-T-C 02:05, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I would also note that rather than the "list of" suggestion, the solution is already in place and used in the Jennifer (given name) article: Special:Prefixindex/Jennifer. This works perfectly for given names, though not so much for surname, which may have post-name additions (Jr., III, Esq., etc.) --Kickstart70-T-C 19:51, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we should make a page specifically listing all the people with a name that starts with a certain given name because that is taking care of with the link to the special prefix finder. I do think we should have some notable people on a page but I'm not sure what criteria that we can set to limit the list. Remember (talk) 19:04, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Objection, your honour. A list, when completed, mentions the person's years of birth & death, nationality and occupation. Special:Prefixindex cannot do any of those things (except for the cases where some of this is in the article title}. In my view the lists can be useful and encyclopedic, e.g. for someone looking for David whatshisname who led the Liberal party. Also, for the most common names, Prefixindex can extend over multiple pages, so a list is the only way to present the most notable people with a popular given name. I accept that this requires us to come up with indicative criteria for inclusion. - Fayenatic (talk) 20:41, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Point of order...if someone with a specific name is notable enough for prefixindex to work, then the notable-ness has already been justified, making a list of those people superfluous. --Kickstart70-T-C 20:16, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I do like Template:lookfrom as an automatic solution; however, doesn't this also include redirects? Btyner (talk) 21:41, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

There is a flaw in the "given name" script. Some cultures (such as Spanish), have people with two (sometimes even more) FAMILY NAMES (the equivalent of surnames, or last names). Currently, the script is set up so that the last "word" of a name is treated as the surname, and every other non-last "word" is treated as a given name, even if it is in reality a surname (family name). I wonder how this can be fixed? --data (talk) 05:43, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

There is also the problem in some (ie certain Asian & African) cultures in which the family name is first, and the personal/given/individual name is last, leading to no end of (usually unnoticed) confusion. --Boldklub-PJs (talk) 17:03, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

standardisation

Hello, there are a few things I think should be agreed upon to create more uniformity throughout name pages. The articles themselves generally are of 4 possible forms: A, B (name), C (given name), D (surname). There doesn't seem to be a need for any more than that, as a name would be either first, last, or used as both. Form A really shouldn't be used as a name page anyway. It would be better to save as a disambiguation page. The other three need to be condensed somehow as well. Whenever a name is used as both first and last it seems we would eventually join those articles, so I suggest doing away with (given name) and (surname) altogether, and just use articles titled "NAME (name)".

Another aspect that can be quite ambiguous is the two infoboxes. Someone else had mentioned they were unsure of the difference between 'region' and 'origin'. I consider 'origin' to be sort of depreciated and just use 'language' and 'region'. I find the difference between 'alternative spelling' and 'related names' to be even more unclear. To make it more complicated those names are usually listed in the See Also section of the page. Nicknames could be the same too. 'derived' seems similar to 'meaning'.

I also noticed that only french, finnish, swedish, and norweigan names are sub-categorised by gender. We could probably modify the template so that categories would be based on that information. That way any infobox that says Gender-female Language-spanish name will add it to "Spanish feminine given names", for example.

Anyway, I have lots more ideas and questions, so I'd feel silly going through and changing a bunch of articles only to have to go redo it all again once it is determined how it should be presented. Feedback is appreciated. Until then I will keep my edits at a less-than-renovating level. Thanks for reading all that. Quickmythril (talk) 21:32, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

All good ideas and great points. And this project is definitely designed to help organize these articles and solve the exact problems that you are mentioned. As for your ideas, I would propose that you formally propose what you want to do and then have people vote or comment on them for about a month (so people are given time to respond) and then if people are in favor of the idea we will adopt it and implement the changes. What do others think? Remember (talk) 18:30, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

NAME (disambiguation) pages

Should the list of people with a particular name be listed at the name page or the disambiguation page. I vote on the name page, that way all named related content can be taken off of the dab. It could say: Jack, can mean several things. Go here for information associated with Jack as a name. For example i just found Velazquez (disambiguation). I think most of that should just be moved to Velázquez (name) (note the accent) or surname if we must. Quickmythril (talk) 21:54, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Agree- I agree with this idea and would support the implementation of this change. I would add that I think if there are 2 to 3 that are very prominent (such as a Madonna disambiguation page with both the artist and the Virgin Mary) then those could be listed and then the rest would say see the name page.Remember (talk) 18:34, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Agree with implementation of Bladdibop (name), including:

Moving Bladdibop (given name) and Bladdibop (surname) to Bladdibop (name).

Merging given name/surname when applicable, as in James (name) and James (surname), with exceptions, per below. --Rosiestep (talk) 10:07, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Comments from User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 18:37, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

• agree Velazquez (disambiguation) → Velázquez (name), assuming 'Velázquez' is the most common variant or the root version of the surname

  the principles here are a) use (name) in favor of (disambiguation) and b) use proper unicode in titles

• agree in many cases that Bladdibop (surname) and Bladdibop (given name) could be moved individually to Bladdibop (name) or merged to same

  where we might want to keep 'surname' and 'given name' separate is where the origins of each are clearly distinguishable. The principle here is to apply the same reasoning to 'surname' and 'given name' that is being applied in the case of objections to the merger of Jacob (name) and James (name) (see the talk page of each article).

Agree that surname and given name articles can remain separate where origins are clearly distinguishable, but with recommendation that we re-address this in 6 months, after gaining experience moving other articles to Bladdibop (name).--Rosiestep (talk) 10:07, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

unisex vs. both

Is there a difference? Karen (name) is both masculine and feminine, however in different cultures. Would unisex only apply to names that a particular culture felt appropriate for both genders? That might be unnecessary though, as many people choose names from a culture other than their own. Still I feel funny applying adding Karen to the unisex category. Maybe just because I have never heard it as a boys' name before... Quickmythril (talk) 22:18, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I forgot my main concern! How do we fit multiple sets of information in an infobox? Karen has several languages, regions, meanings, etc... Maybe a different infobox for what can be determined to be each seperate unrelated usage of the same name? (I already feel like the infoboxes are so huge as it is. Hm, smaller font?) Quickmythril (talk) 22:23, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm open to any proposals to reform the infobox. Best to try to do a mock change and show it and then we can see how we like it. Remember (talk) 18:35, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Pike & Pike (surname)

Hello, Would one or two of you mind weighing in at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Disambiguation#Pike & Pike (surname), please? Thanks. I'd appreciate this project's pov. --AndrewHowse (talk) 03:42, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Emperor is a member of this WikiProject, but I've weighed in as well ... I don't think I said anything directly contradictory to Emperor's words. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:52, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

That's great thanks - it is a handy summary. I have only just joined up so it is good to get it nicely boiled down, as it is what I'd thought from reading around (and is also solid common sense) - surname pages tend to fall out of the remit of the disambiguation project (at least as far as the MOS goes) and fall more into the purview of this project but there is clearly going to be a lot of cross-over and it is a bit like a set index in that it takes the standard disambiguation page and allows for more flexibility - this just pushes it further, hopefully in the direction of a full-blown article (which still works well for the purposes of disambiguation - as the footer makes clear). I'm sure there are also minor issues that need thrashing out but that all seems good to me. (Emperor (talk) 02:41, 11 March 2008 (UTC))

Template

There is a heated ongoing discussion regarding the use of external links in this template that can be found at Wikipedia talk:External links#Input needed. Please review the proposals and add your two cents. Remember 01:02, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

But why is there an external link in the template? Its almost an advert for the 'behindthename' website, and the only piece of information it links to is a number.--Celtus (talk) 10:22, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

A similar question crossed my mind when I first saw the template. I would prefer to see the 'behindthename' link removed from the template. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 11:30, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I found a better site that provides more than just a number. Actually it provides as much as most of the name articles we have! Quickmythril (talk) 11:42, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok, let me rephrase that: I would prefer to not see an external link added to the name infoboxes (any of them), period. I see that User:UnitedStatesian considers it linkspam ... I don't think it is so much linkspam as it is addition of an external link that chooses one from among the hundred or so name sites out there to support. Further, just adding an external link to an article does not improve the article; in fact your statement "it provides as much as most of the name articles we have" suggests that perhaps you would feel that improving the articles would not really be necessary if the link were added due to the accessibility of the information at that site. That is the conclusion that many less-than-diligent editors would come to (I'm not accusing you of that .. rather, I'm pointing out why an external link can be a negative incentive to article improvement). --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:19, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how it isn't linkspam. The template promotes behindthename website by name. The only info the link contains is one number sometimes two. Plus when you click the link there are ads on the page.

Whoever made the template wants readers to visit that particular website for a single number - when it would be a whole lot simpler, and less tacky, to include the ranking in the actual article and cite it like any other reference. The behindthename link belongs with the other resources listed on the main project page, not in the template.--Celtus (talk) 10:06, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I have actually not been following the discussion regarding external links, though I am aware that it is something often misused here in the Wiki. I basically just changed the external website, because it was a quick change and is more useful as a database for several of the often-empty infobox fields. Now, (at least until they decide to remove it) any name I am editing, I can quickly check that page and fill in some missing tidbits. The way I see it, once we get a better handle on all of the name articles, every stub-class should have more than what is at babynames.com. So to me it is a positive incentive, almost a minimum requirement for any name article. I hope that any editors, present or future, reading this, would take the initiative and update empty boxes. Also, I was thinking, perhaps there would be a way to fill empty infobox fields using a bot... Quickmythril (talk) 08:08, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I have not looked at your contributions, so I would ask whether you are including the external link in the infobox among the references when you pull information from the site for inclusion in an article. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 13:54, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I was the one who originally designed the templates and included the link to "behind the name". I wanted to include popularity information about a name in the template, but I realized that including popularity information about a name was tricky. This was because you had to limit specifically what country you were referring too, and what time period you were referring to. Because there is an infinite way to slice up the popularity of names, I thought it would be better just to have an link to a site that would compile that information in a quick and easy readable format. I searched around the web and the best I found was "behind the name". I am in NO WAY affiliated with that site. I just thought it did the best job of describing the popularity of given names and surnames. I didn't see a problem linking to this site since other templates link to external sites that provide good information (i.e., imdb database links in movie templates). So that was my thinking. I am happy to defer to consensus if people don't like it, but I think we should do something so that people can easily know the popularity of a name. Remember (talk) 14:05, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Now i kind of feel like i insulted you, sorry Remember. You're right it is tricky and hard to make simple. I understand your point.--Celtus (talk) 07:43, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

• I Support no embedded external links in anthroponymy infoboxes as no external website, including behindthename, currently provides a repository for names of all nationalities, as, for instance, ethnologue.com does for all languages. --Rosiestep (talk) 18:45, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
• I also support removing the external links in the templates for the reasons mentioned.--Celtus (talk) 07:43, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
• Support based on input from Rosiestep. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 10:22, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

  Comment: I would further suggest adding a note to the Templates section on the main Project page that establishes this as a Project Guideline. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 10:22, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Name article title convention proposal

Initial consensus appears to be working with Version 3 as the base to move forward from
Current discussion focusing on adding onto Version 3 to reach a broader guideline

I'm soliciting input on page naming convention in order to reduce present-day variety. You may want to review WP:NAME and these examples first:

• Benjamin, Benjamin (name), Benjamin (disambiguation)
• James, James (name), James (surname), James (disambiguation)
• Patrick/disambiguation, Patrick (given name), Patrick (surname)
• Alexander/given name/surname, Alexander (disambiguation)
• Joseph/disambiguation, Joseph (name), Joseph (given name), Joseph (surname)
• Johnson, Johnson (surname), Johnson (disambiguation)
• Conner/disambiguation, Conner (surname)
• Washington/U.S. state, Washington (disambiguation), Washington (name)/given name/surname
• Fraser/disambiguation, Fraser (surname)/a set index article/list, Clan Fraser --Rosiestep (talk) 10:34, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

An initial comment: There appears to be room for a convention Wikipedia:Naming conventions (personal names). Would you agree? --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:49, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Might be a good idea, but "reducing variety" should not be a goal in itself. There must be better reasons than just an aversion to variety. (John User:Jwy talk) 03:19, 18 March 2008 (UTC).

Let me rephrase. My reference point was earlier dialogue regarding discontinuing, with some exceptions, the practice of Bladdibop (given name) and Bladdibop (surname), and opting for Bladdibop (name) instead. Whether or not we operationalize that, it's obvious that anthroponymy articles do not follow a naming convention. While Wikipedia:Naming conventions addresses many issues, it doesn't address anthroponymy article naming conventions to the extent that we have variety in naming anthroponymy dab pages, name pages, surname pages, etc., rather than a standard.

Example1:

• Johnson, Johnson (surname) Johnson (disambiguation)
• Conner/disambiguation, Conner (surname)

Example2:

• Benjamin (disambiguation), Benjamin (name)/given name/surname, Benjamin/origin
• Joseph/disambiguation, Joseph (name)/origin, Joseph (given name), Joseph (surname)

Example3:

• Peter/disambiguation, Peter (first name)/includes fict characters
• Paul/disambiguation, Paul (male name)/incl surnames/fict characters
• Mary (disambiguation)/incl fict characters, Mary

My goal is to further dialogue regarding naming variety vs. naming orderliness/convention. --Rosiestep (talk) 10:33, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

So let's propose a general rule that we can go by and see if it gets support and then change all the articles to reflect the change. I would propose the following:

Remember's Page name conventions proposal

Proposal - If an article about a name is notable enough for its own article then it should be named as follows: the name discussed followed by name in parentheses (e.g., "William (name)"). The scope of this article will be to discuss the use and history of this name and can include a discussion of both the use of the name as a given name and a surname. If a page becomes too big to discuss both a name as both a given name and a surname, then the articles should be split into two articles one for the given name and one for the surname (e.g., "William (given name)" and "William (surname)"). A disambiguation page should exist for any name that could cause confusion about what the reader may be looking for and should be titled like this "William (disambiguation)." Remember (talk) 12:32, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

1. Support - Remember (talk) 12:32, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
2. Oppose - input provided below at #Remember's proposal ceyockey comments. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:36, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
3. Cautious supportOppose. The reason I'm cautious on this is that If the pagename "name" redirects to "name (name)", this makes it easy for POV-pushers to change the redirect to point to their favourite person by that name. I think this is why, after I created Hillary (name), another editor moved it to Hillary. It may be better to locate the Name article at the pagename without (name), if that is not already taken by a notable character or a disambiguation page. - Fayenatic (talk) 19:55, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Addendum to Proposal (this can appear immediately after the end of the proposal as written) — Redirects (cases where {{R from surname}} can be used) should be named without a "(name)" suffix to the redirect title. For example, Viscardi→Michael Viscardi, not Viscardi (name)→Michael Viscardi. If the Redirect is converted to an article, the naming convention for name articles will apply, in which case the original redirect would remain a redirect: Viscardi→Viscardi (name). --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:48, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

1. Proposed --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:48, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
2. Support--Remember (talk) 13:16, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
3. Support, but it's confusing. Suggested rewording:

A page titled by the name alone should also exist. This should be used as follows.

(i) An article about a notable person known by that name alone, in cases where most readers (or editors adding links) will expect to find the article on that person by the name alone.

(ii) A disambiguation page, in cases where people are likely to search or link using the name alone, but more than one person or other meaning may be intended.

(iii) Otherwise, a redirect to the (name) page; {{R from surname}} may be used.

The reason I'm cautious is to do with the main proposal. If the main proposal is accepted, then this follows. - Fayenatic (talk) 19:55, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. If there is no article about a most notable person who is known by the name alone, nor a disambiguation page, then the article about the name should be titled simply by the Name. In these cases, any qualifier in brackets would be redundant; however, in case it is used as a search term, a redirect could be added in these cases from "Title (name)" to "Title". - Fayenatic (talk) 22:28, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Remember's proposal ceyockey comments

I will try to dissect point by point, some points I am in agreement with and some not.

• If an article about a name is notable enough for its own article then it should be named as follows: the name discussed followed by name in parentheses (e.g., "William (name)").
  • Support - this would be the baseline for a new name article. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:36, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Support, except that there is currently no set way to determine if a name is notable enough. How do other lists (books, websites) decide inclusion? I think as long as a valid source of use as a personal name can be provided then no name should be removed for lack of notability. For example Lukyan is listed on lots of websites, but it's not really notable. Quickmythril (talk) 08:36, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment: Alternative spellings such as Lukyan should be merged and redirected with the more common forms, in this case Lucien and Lucian. This approach seems to work fine at Zechariah (given name) and Zacharias (surname), and I would argue that it is even necessary in cases where there are alternative transliterations into English. A form with a clear national origin such as Lukyan can keep its national category on the redirect. Merger may also be helpful for more notable names, such as Sara which has been merged into Sarah (female name). I suggest that merger also produces a more notable article, e.g. Aaronson including Aaronsohn. Hmm, maybe I'm getting too far off-topic; we might want a separate discussion later about the optimum approach to merges & splits of related names. - Fayenatic (talk) 14:26, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
      • Comment I think this is a discussion that goes beyond considering the current proposal, and it is something that needs discussion. Personally, I do not think such mergers are in the best interests of Wikipedia; for instance, I don't think the Sara/Sarah merger was a good idea at first glance. Consider Smith (surname), Smithe, Smit and Smyth, which would all be merged into Smith (surname) (not to mention a couple dozen additional variants) given your content proposal. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 14:41, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
        • The Sara/Sarah merger is certainly unfinished, and it may be better to reverse that one, as Sara has more derivations, and both were sufficiently notable on their own. It was a bad example. However, I would defend the combined page Zacharias (surname) incorporating Zechariah, Zachariah, Zacarias, Zaccaria, Zakaria, Zakariya, etc; and I am open to merging it with Zechariah (given name). - Fayenatic (talk) 22:28, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Support - this would be the baseline for name articles, and would require changing those name articles that are named differently. --Rosiestep (talk) 02:12, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment1 - Most, but not all, Korean surnames follow the naming convention of "William (Korean name)". Is there a subject-matter expert within our membership who can comment on how WP:KOREA chose its surname name convention? WP:KOREA should have an opportunity for comment after we’ve had some discussion. --Rosiestep (talk) 02:19, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment2 - This will have some affect on the Scottish Clans wikiproject but I don't believe there would be opposition. Thoughts? Scottish Clans should to have an opportunity for comment after we've had some discussion. --Rosiestep (talk) 02:19, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

---

• • Scope recommendation - I think we want to exclude disambiguation-type name pages that fall under Template:hndis. At least in the beginning, we should probably scope to "single-name study" fodder, but I am not sure how to say that without invoking the term "single-name study", which our work would not be a study and the term would need explanation. Thoughts? --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:36, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
    • Support excluding disambiguation-type name pages that fall under Template:hndis during first 90 days of implementation period, then re-evaluate. --Rosiestep (talk) 02:14, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
    • Support - Pages like John Young, could perhaps link to John (name) & Young (name), but the article would be more the domain of the Dab Project. There are pages with T:hndis like Hedwig & Micah that should become name pages eventually however. Quickmythril (talk) 08:36, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
    • Support- Remember (talk) 13:15, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
    • Support. Disambiguation pages should be split from anthroponymy pages. - Fayenatic (talk) 22:28, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

---

• The scope of this article will be to discuss the use and history of this name and can include a discussion of both the use of the name as a given name and a surname.
  • Support - however, I think this could be shortened to "A "(name)" article would include discussion of both given name and surname/family name usage."
  • Support and agree that only (name) should cover all uses as a personal name. Any other uses would be on a disambiguation page. Quickmythril (talk) 08:36, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Support Ceyockey revision --Rosiestep (talk) 21:31, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

---

• If a page becomes too big to discuss both a name as both a given name and a surname, then the articles should be split into two articles one for the given name and one for the surname (e.g., "William (given name)" and "William (surname)").
  • Oppose - based on the criterion for split. The primary reason why a "name" article would get too long (based on what I have seen so far) is the inclusion of the instances list of biography links. I would recommend that the solution for "If a page becomes too big" would be to offload the instances list(s) first. I think the primary criterion for splitting along the surname/given name divide is demonstration that the two have different origins ... or different enough to be only indirectly related. To say this another way, technical issues related to usability of Wikimedia software should not be a driver for splitting given name from surname; rather, semantic or etymological issues should drive this split.
  • An orthogonal way of looking at this - a very different way of looking at this is to consider only using "(name)" when there is evidence that surname and given name have similar origins, or one is a derivative of the other. In this scenario, the default would be "(surname)" and "(given name)" and only evidence suggesting common origin would drive a merger to "(name)". I think both the evidence-based merger and evidence-based split scenarios are viable ... but my gut says to go with the evidence-based split scenario. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:36, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose as well. All uses of a name should be at one page. Having Kari (japanese) and Kari (germanic) would be too complicated and break the (name) naming conventions. If there are multiple uses of a name it should have multiple sections and corresponding infoboxes on the same (name) page. Quickmythril (talk) 08:36, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Revision recommendation - If a page becomes too long, then the nameholders should be split into a separate article in accordance with WP:SETINDEX. --Rosiestep (talk) 21:43, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment: I don't think SETINDEX applies. I'm undecided on the rest; cf. the comprehensive info at David (name) to the concise selection of pertinent examples at Sarah (female name) (before Sara was merged into it). - Fayenatic (talk) 22:28, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

---

• A disambiguation page should exist for any name that could cause confusion about what the reader may be looking for....
  • Support - this is simply acknowledging that there are cases where disambiguation is needed.

---

• ...and should be titled like this "William (disambiguation).
  • Oppose - I think this should be worded something like "...and should be titled in accordance with WP:MOSDAB." --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:36, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
    • Support revision- good pointRemember (talk) 13:15, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
    • Support revision, but "... in accordance with WP:DAB#NAME". MOSDAB refers to that section and has no further content on naming. - Fayenatic (talk) 14:26, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment - WP:WPDAB should have an opportunity for comment. --Rosiestep (talk) 02:30, 20 March 2008 (UTC) Support Fayenatic's revision. --Rosiestep (talk) 21:20, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Current proposed policy based upon comments above

I tried to synthesize the information above into our current policy that has the support of all members. Feel free to revise it to include information that you think has been agreed to by consensus. Remember (talk) 13:26, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

REVISED PROPOSED GUIDELINE - If an article about a name is notable enough for its own article then it should be named as follows: the name discussed followed by name in parentheses (e.g., "William (name)"). A "(name)" article would include discussion of both given name and surname/family name usage and history. A disambiguation page should exist for any name that could cause confusion about what the reader may be looking for and should be titled in accordance with WP:DAB#NAME.

• Support --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 15:14, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

  Comment My feeling is that we should not be proposing this as policy, but as guideline; as a guideline, we still have significant leeway in implementing good faith variations while reaching a mature, fully qualified, (almost) universally applicable naming convention, which can take months of active application — though I do think that this covers >90% of cases, which is essential for a guideline. If that is accepted, then it comes down to what introduction box to use, such as Template:Style-guideline (as used on MOS:BIO) or Template:Wikipedia subcat guideline (as used on Wikipedia:Naming conventions (aircraft)) or some other intro-box. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 15:14, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

  P.S. My feeling is that the first "official act" under this should be moving Smith (surname) to Smith (name). --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 15:16, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

  I support these comments. Remember (talk) 00:22, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

  Neutral note: if that "official act" does go ahead, might as well merge People with the surname Smith at the same time. - Fayenatic (talk) 21:28, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• Hold on... Rosie was right, we should first obtain consensus at WP:WPDAB. The proposal does not follow existing guidance at WP:MOSDAB#Given names or surnames, which currently refers to long lists of people frequently referred to simply by the single name being moved to Title (name), Title (surname) and/or Title (given name) pages as disambiguation pages. I'm not aware that there are any such pages; if there are none, then let's ask WP:WPDAB to release all three or at least Title (name) for our use as non-DAB pages. - Fayenatic (talk) 21:07, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

  I think the use of (name) where it would be redundant goes against common practice. It does not seem necessary to use it purely for consistent naming of anthroponymy articles. (i) If there is a most notable person known by this name alond, then they get the article with that name. In this case there may also be Title (disambiguation) and Title (name). (ii) If there is no such person, then the disambiguation page has priority for the main title. The article on the name should be at Title (name). (iii) If there is no need for a disambiguation page, then the article on the name should be simply titled by the name. - Fayenatic (talk) 22:28, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Refocusing discussion

Recap of versions considered to date

Version 1

If an article about a name is notable enough for its own article then it should be named as follows: the name discussed followed by name in parentheses (e.g., "William (name)"). The scope of this article will be to discuss the use and history of this name and can include a discussion of both the use of the name as a given name and a surname. If a page becomes too big to discuss both a name as both a given name and a surname, then the articles should be split into two articles one for the given name and one for the surname (e.g., "William (given name)" and "William (surname)"). A disambiguation page should exist for any name that could cause confusion about what the reader may be looking for and should be titled like this "William (disambiguation)."

Version 2

If an article about a name is notable enough for its own article then it should be named as follows: the name discussed followed by name in parentheses (e.g., "William (name)"). A "(name)" article would include discussion of both given name and surname/family name usage and history. A disambiguation page should exist for any name that could cause confusion about what the reader may be looking for and should be titled in accordance with WP:DAB#NAME.

Suggested way forward

Considering the purpose of this effort

Looking through the discussion, I think I would say that the purpose at hand is not simply "Consistency". Rather, I think that one purpose is to "Avoid Poor Titles" for name articles. We have general agreement that...

Benjamin (disambiguation) is a type of Poor Title to Avoid

...for a name article. Purging the set of name articles of these titles would be one worthy goal that could take some time. Also, it would not be crazy to simply begin with a very simple statement based on this as a proposed name article title guideline, which would be worded something like

Version 3

If a name (surname or given name) is notable enough for its own article, the title of this article shall never be Name (disambiguation). Rather, such an article should be at Name, Name (name), Name (surname) or Name (given name) depending upon the content of the article. For advice on the titling of name articles, consult WikiProject Anthroponymy.

I think that a notification to WikiProject Disambiguation with a good faith period for input provided (somewhere between 5 and 14 days ... need to settle on a period) would be good, but I don't think that this would garner any controversy among the members of that WikiProject because it would appear to be consistent with discussions that have taken place there previously (documentation on Template:Hndis; the "Listing people with that surname or given name, or not?" and "Lists again" at WP:MOSDAB; and the discussion leading to a 'keep' consensus at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Monica (given name); among other discussions).

I think that 'Version 3 — Proposal' is a step forward, though it does not go the full distance to satisfy the range of discussion represented in this thread.

--User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:54, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand. I don't consider Benjamin (disambiguation) a name article, but it seems that you do.

Are you saying that because Benjamin is a name, is it not acceptable for its (Hndis) disambiguation page to be named Benjamin (disambiguation)? I don't see anything wrong with it. This project has its separate anthroponymy page, Benjamin (name). There needs to be a DAB page to resolve inadequate links & searches, and, as Benjamin is already taken, the DAB's long name seems fine for its purpose. - Fayenatic (talk) 14:00, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I read this differently. I thought the first point about "Benjamin (disambiguation) is a title to avoid" meant it was a bad title for an anthroponymy page; Benjamin (name) is much better. Hence, the family of Benjamin pages seems to be broadly in compliance with the proposal. because Benjamin (disambiguation) is, appropriately, an hndis page. We could/should remove the one sentence at the beginning of Benjamin (disambiguation) about the origins of the name, but that's a minor issue for now. Am I missing some subtleties here? Entirely possible, of course. --AndrewHowse (talk) 20:12, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

↵ outdent
It is as AndrewHowse interpreted — I realize that Benjamin (disambiguation) and Benjamin (name) are properly titled as both DAB and Anthroponymy WikiProjects suggest. Maybe a better statement would be...

 Benjamin (disambiguation) is a type of Title to Avoid for Anthroponymy articles

...the "Anthroponymy articles" wikilink targeting Wikipedia:WikiProject Anthroponymy#Scope, which happens to be a missing section on the main Project page. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 03:22, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Silence descends

This discussion seems to have come to a screeching halt. Any thoughts on how to restart the engine and move forward a notch? --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 23:47, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps this is how consensus makes itself known? No further comments? --AndrewHowse (talk) 14:31, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

This policy works for me. But we need to clearly state when it should be William (name), William (given name) or William (surname). Remember (talk) 16:06, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

OK — if I am correct in the notion that the minimalist Version 3 is the acceptable base version, then I agree that we should formulate some name vs. given name vs. surname guideline to include. (to continue in a new section) --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:40, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Selecting title qualifier (working forward from V.3)

in-page link to section with Version 3 for reference

It will likely be easiest to move forward along the lines of "what do we agree is bad" than "what do we agree is good", which was the approach used to reach Version 3. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:09, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Stand-alone lists of names

Sometimes, as in the case of James (name) and James (surname), a name origin article is given the "(name)" qualifier, while a separate list of biographical instances is given the "(surname)" or "(given name)" qualifier as appropriate. If we consider the existing naming convention for stand-alone lists (which James (surname) qualifies as), the first line of this section reads: "The name or title of the list should simply be List of _ _ (for example list of Xs)." It goes on to specifically address lists of people. Based on this guideline (not policy), it would seem that a list with the title James (surname) should not be used; rather an appropriate title might be List of people sharing the surname James or more generically List of people named James to include both surname and given name instances. Thus, I would propose the first addition onto the base of Version 3 to be:

Version 3—List-titling addition

A stand-alone list of people sharing a name should be titled according to list naming guidelines and have the form of "List of people ___".

--User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:09, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Example: Recently split List of people sharing the surname Coker from Coker (disambiguation); classified as List-Low with WikiProject banner. The creation of a surname article for Coker is unlikely, and using this name format avoids confusion between content rich and content free name articles. Also, should a name article be created, this title could be easily moved to a more appropriate title for expansion (e.g. move to Coker (name)). --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 12:31, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Red links on given name list and disambiguation pages

Is there a policy on these? Sometimes they are kids/aspiring actors trying to get themselves into Wikipedia, sometimes they are legitimate notable people that don't have an article about them yet. My opinion is that if you don't have an article about the person, there is no need to list them on one of these pages, even if they are notable, so they should be removed until they link to something useful. I'd be interested in hearing other opinions though. MrChupon (talk) 04:56, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Eh after thinking some more, I suppose if they are notable, they should probably stay, I'll continue to check for notability when cleaning up these pages. I'll leave this here should people like to discuss it, though - MrChupon (talk) 05:18, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I once redlinked all of the unlinked cast and crew in the infobox of Fight Club. It was reverted and he posted a comment at User_talk:Quickmythril#Re:_Redlinks. Since then my personal general rule has been blue stays, red goes, again unless there is notability or another exception. I usually try to find an article at an alternate spelling before delinking. Maybe a legitimate edit could receive a note on their talkpage suggesting they make at least a stub before linking... -Quickmythril (talk) 09:25, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

The trend in this WikiProject is toward treatment of names with articles containing lists rather than lists alone. The red-link question and a related question of whether or not a name article should contain (directly or as a split) a comprehensive list of people sharing the name should be interpreted in light of the three main types of articles that exist: articles, simple lists and redirects. This isn't an answer, but is the way I think we should think about the problem.

There has been vigorous debate in WikiProject Disambiguation over the years about the "including red-links" question. This (ongoing) debate has led to Wikipedia:MOSDAB#Red_links as a statement of the guideline for disambiguation articles. I think we should consider this as a starting point on which to build a red-link guide for name articles. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 13:27, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Ceyockey.. I wasn't aware you could do "what links here" on a red link. It seems thats at least another valueble tool in determining if the red link is a valid placeholder for a real article, or just vanity spamming of name pages. - MrChupon (talk) 17:13, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

If I put a red-link onto a disambiguation page, I add a <!-- comment --> indicating the article that I found the instance at. I never add a red-link 'cold' but only if it is needed to provide disambiguation at one or more target articles. That doesn't exactly apply to the name-articles case, I know. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 17:32, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Format for lists of people

As some of you have likely noticed, I have been imposing a particular style of list for people on Surname and Given name articles. This list format is quite different from standard list formatting and was designed to provide information that is related to the aim of name articles to speak to the origin and history of the topic name.

I have done enough of this formatting now to think it is time to bring up the format for debate and to discuss the pros and cons of various list formats so that we might as a WikiProject settle on a recommended though not exclusive style (moving toward a WP:MOSHUMNAME or Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Name articles) ... WP:MOSNAME is already taken, unfortunately).

The list style I have been putting in place (e.g. Smyth, Reed (name), Dickinson (name))

• Section title as "Notable people sharing the XXX surname" or "Notable people sharing the YYY given name"
• Soft sections (definition-header) for centuries in the format ;Born after 1700, with a separate section starting at 1950, due to the major jump in article numbers for people born after 1950 (I don't have statistics to prove the jump)
• Line item format of Country of birth, Lifespan, Biography link, name-history relevant comment (see the name article examples noted above for line item examples)
• Line item order by (1) year of birth and (2) country of birth

This format differs radically from the standard name list format (e.g. pre-reformatting versions of each of the initial examples: Smyth, Reed (name), Dickinson (name))

• Section title variable, but along the lines of "People" or "People named XXX"
• Sub-sections based on letter of first name or profession
• Line item format of Biography link, Lifespan (optional), Profession or description of notability
• Line item order by either given name if a surname list or surname if a given name list.

The existing primary format for lists is based on the use of the list as a navigational tool and is a revision of the disambiguation page format.

I have not received any negative response on my list formatting style, but I do recognize it as a WP:BOLD implementation and likely not tasty to all readers or editors. I would like to get a sense of whether a consensus-driven list format can be arrived at. What I am concerned about is having sacrificed almost all of the navigational utility of the list in favor of serving the end of name demography. Thanks for your input and suggestions on a compromise solution.

--User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 14:24, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd switch the name and country, keep the sort order, add 'first name' as the third order criteria (in case of same year and country births). I like it not being sorted by name, but that should still be the first thing listed. That way you can have demographics and navigation... -Quickmythril (talk) 16:48, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

What is your thought on adding profession/reason-for-notability for the listed people? --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 21:13, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I have finished the next formatting iteration. See current version — compare to last list format and last standard list version. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:44, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

The tabulation, with the historical division as a coloured row across the table, is good. However, within these divisions, I strongly prefer line item order by name, and having this as the first column. For one thing, it avoids difficulties where the dates or origin are not recorded here; but I find it a more intuitive and attractive presentation anyway.

For line item format, I suggest that a column for the occupation/reason for notability is very helpful in these lists. I'd keep nationality/ies in the same column, and drop the countries of birth and death. For instance, Joanna Lumley should be identified as "English actress"; for the name article, it is not important that she was born in India.

Shall we paste examples here for easy reference? I propose the following line format. Combining the years of birth and death allows use of the word "born" for living people, which I prefer to "(living)".

Name	Born & died	Nationality, occupation, & notes
Born after 1400
William Smyth	c.1460 - 1514	English bishop. Surname may appear as 'Smyth' or 'Smith'
Born after 1900
Tommy Smyth		Irish-American soccer commentator
Born after 1950
Mark Smyth	Born 1985	English footballer

- Fayenatic (talk) 15:14, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposed changes:

Name	Born	Died	Nationality - Occupation - Notes
Born after 1400
William Smyth	c.1460	1514	English bishop. Surname may appear as 'Smyth' or 'Smith'
Born after 1900
Tommy Smyth			Irish-American soccer commentator
Born after 1950
Mark Smyth	1985		English footballer

(a) I put back the "Died" column for two reasons: I'd be delighted to stop re-writing the word "Born" (see Fayenatic's Mark Smyth "Born 1985" example directly above) on living entries, and "Born" is found at the top of the column then repeated in each subheader row. (b) The style change to "Nationality - Occupation - Notes" appears more formal. (c) The font size change to "Small" for header and subheaders is a further distinguisher from the nameholder entries. --Rosiestep (talk) 17:01, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd be very happy with that too, except that I wouldn't reduce the font size in any kind of heading. - Fayenatic (talk) 23:44, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Regular font size is ok with me. --Rosiestep (talk) 01:31, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Including country of birth

I should explain why I have been opting to include the countries of birth and death and migration information for a person in a name-instance list. My original reasoning was that including at least the country of birth would complement distribution information that might (or might not) be available for a name. For instance, compare Smit to Lopes to Ba (surname). Such a treatment fills a very common gap — the absence of frequency data outside of the anglosphere. The question in my mind has been, though, whether such information is misleading (I am of the opinion now that it is biased but not necessarily misleading) and how to better present such gap-filling information without crossing over into original researh (see #Skirting the boundaries of original research above). --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:19, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Should name-instance Vital Statistics be included on Name pages by citation only?

Ceyockey brings up an interesting point. Country of birth anchors name locality at one point in time, while country of death anchors name diaspora at a later date. Both are relevant to Name articles and, coupled with Vital Statistics' years, are, especially in list form, "raw data". But do Vital Statistics (birth/death/year/place) appear as original research if ...migration information for a person in a name-instance list does not also include Bio article Vital Statistics citation migration? One future solution would be an embedded link between Bio pages/Name pages, with Name page name-instance entries autopopulated by Bio page cited Vital Statistics. --Rosiestep (talk) 20:28, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

There are a couple of questions wrapped up in this ...

• Do lists that contain information found in articles linked from the list require duplication of citations?

  This is an issue for lists in general in Wikipedia and it has been the subject of some debate elsewhere. Though there does not seem to be a consensus presently, it does appear clear that failure to duplicate citations makes the list not viable as an 'article' when abstracted from Wikipedia as a whole, which would appear to violate the spirit, if not the letter, of the GFDL licensing agreement - the violation comes in taking one editor's work in composing and supporting information with a citation and copying that information to another article without either a) carrying over authorship recognition or b) conducting one's own research against existing sources, thereby presenting a valid new attributable authorship. This fast gets into the realm of wikilawyering, but I think in the long run there will be a tide-turning in favor of citation support for aggregate lists like the Name article lists; one hopes that the development of a central citation solution that facilitates re-use of citations will be in place before the tide turns too far.

  Let's put it another way: If it were to become policy that lists require citations that both support inclusion of an article in the list and support inclusion of any line-item information that provides added value to the list, there will follow a wave of deletions not seen since the Userbox Wars. Further, a logical extension of such a policy would be citation support for inclusion in categories and some changes in categorization practice would need to be made (though the citation burden would rest with the article and not with the category).

• Does duplicating information across articles without duplicating citations constitute original research?

  I would argue 'technically, no', but the argument is pretty convoluted and relies on a few assumptions, chief among them being assuming good faith on the part of the editors of a biographical article that they have not conducted original research ... let's stop there, shall we?

• Does pulling information from what-links-here articles into a list for a red-link line item constitute original research?

  An example of this exists in each of Hayes (surname) (Janet Gray Hayes) and Smyth (John Smyth (1748-1811)). I was a bit hesitant to do this, but I thought it better than excluding a red-link that would appear to have a viable future as a stub and later full article. There are alternatives to what I've done, if this approach is particularly uncomfortable.

--User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 02:40, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Revised table

I've completed another version of the table at Smyth. The current format looks like:

Name	Born	Died	Nationality • Notability • Notes
Born after 1400
William Smyth	c.1460	1514	English • Anglican Bishop; Lord President of the Council of Wales and the Marches; co-founder of Brasenose College
Richard Smyth (Regius Professor)	c.1499	1563	English • first person to hold the office of Regius Professor of Divinity in the University of Oxford • migrated to France late in life

All line item information is drawn from the corresponding biographical article, though when a red-link is presented, the information has been drawn from the what-links-here article content. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 13:48, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

A second transformed example rests at Hayes (surname). --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 02:01, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Text related to Redirect templates

While creating Template:R from given name, I noticed that the text associated with the given name and surname redirect templates and their companion categories needs updating in light of discussions and agreements we've had here over the past couple of months. This would be a relatively straightforward authoring task if someone would like to take it on. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 17:52, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

How notable is notable enough?

Following from the discussion around a guideline for titling name articles is the question: How notable need a name be to be notable enough for a Wikipedia article? I need to think this through more before proposing something, but I wanted to toss the question out there to be tugged and toyed with nonetheless. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:03, 26 March 2008 (UTC) . Test Case: Is this notable enough? → Smithe --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:21, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

No idea how we do this. I would say the top 100 first and last names are notable and the top 100 first and last names in the English language are also definitely notable (since this is an English Encyclopedia). Outside of that limit, I don't how we draw the line. Remember (talk) 01:30, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

An input to such a "calculation" would be how much information for source material is available. (John User:Jwy talk) 04:23, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I strongly agree that reliable source material is a quantifiable predictor of notability, especially when coupled with a requirement for X number of nameholders. The top 100 (or any X) masculine given names, feminine given names, and surnames of every (or just some) English as an official language country could be construed as narrow focused (or even biased/censorship against common foreign language names) as English language wikireaders are interested in a world beyond their backyard. As for Smithe, a rare surname related to Smith, I'd consider adding it to the Smith page within a discussion of alternate spellings (if a citation supports this recommendation). --Rosiestep (talk) 05:15, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

• Well that would be good if the types of sources used to support notability for standard articles applied in general to name articles. Unfortunately, there are very few names for which the content of the source would be considered anything more than an incidental mention (see WP:NOTE#General notability guideline, the passage related to Significant coverage). One way to interpret this is that there should only be a very small number of name articles (a couple of dozen at most); however, I think that no members of this WikiProject would agree with enforcing the consequences of such a conclusion.

What if we look at human names from the same point of view taken for inhabited places (down to hamlets, small villages, tiny but permanent settlements). The oft cited notion for places is that populated places are intrinsically notable, an argument used time and time again when an editor decides to bring a village to WP:AFD as being not notable, too small to matter. Application of a criterion like "if there is a single notable person who has a particular surname, then a redirect should be created; if there are two notable people who share a surname, then a redirect to one article should be created and both articles embellished with a cross-referencing hatnote; if there are three notable people who share a surname, then a name article is justified" would amount to a de facto statement that "human names are intrinsically significant". This would be an approach similar to that used by the DAB project, where dab pages with two entries are tolerated but not encouraged (use a hatnote instead), while dab pages with three entries are not uncommon.

--User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 03:39, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

• Following that pattern for DABs, I'd suggest that if a name article is only linked to one or two articles about people with that (given or family) name, and there is no strong expectation of expanding that any time soon, then it would be liable to lose an AFD debate if nominated for deletion as a non-notable name. After all, some names are made up e.g. by parents and authors, and these are generally not notable as names unless and until they are widely copied.
• For such articles, if there is a similar name, then the articles should be merged (or expanded if the similar name does not yet have an article). I suggest that in these cases merger is appropriate even without evidence that the names are etymologically linked; an encyclopedia can just as well contrast names as connect them, e.g. Ba (surname) (good work, by the way!).
• In this case, I'd recommend merging Smithe with the name/people section of Smythe. No other related names should be merged, as Smyth is significant enough to keep its own article, on the basis of the number of links to people. This goes some way towards a conclusion on our opening thoughts above about merging (see mention of Lukyan higher on this page).
• A possible alternative, especially for cases where there is no similar name, would be to create Lists of rare family names, perhaps split by cultural origin. A list provides context and notability, provided that the concept is notable. The frequency information might lend itself to a tabulated format, with a broad column for etymology*.
• Going the other way, I suppose we might also think about criteria for demerging... the Ba articles seem good as they are, yet we don't like Sara merged into Sarah... can we formulate Why? - Fayenatic (talk) 22:32, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

• Etymology could be used as a reasonable basis for expanding or limiting cross-references between similar or related names for linguistical, historical or genealogical purposes. -- Boldklub-PJs (talk) 17:17, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Guideline for content of the list of names associated with a name article

I think there is a matter that needs discussion and resolution before I move farther with editing lists of names on name pages.

What should be the content of the list of names associated with a name article?

I have had this question on my mind for some time now and have opted for the notion that at least in the case of surname articles that the list should be comprehensive rather than representative. However, this edit by User:Fayenatic london on the Hunt (surname) article brings the question to a head. The edit summary "Use disambiguation pages rather than specific individuals on various lines." highlights a difference of opinion between Fayenatic and me that needs to be resolved as a matter of consensus by the WikiProject and established as a guideline to best practice. There are essentially two ways to go here:

1. Surname articles should include a comprehensive listing of notable people sharing the surname. If such a list becomes too long for a single page (as the case of People with the surname Smith would be), the matter of how to split or otherwise handle the unwieldy list should be discussed toward a consensus resolution.
2. Surname articles should include only unique name instances (unique combinations of given name and surname). In cases where there are three or more articles that could be identically titled, a disambiguation page should be created and a link to that disambiguation page provided.
3. (added late) Surname articles should contain instances of use of the surname that are relevant to understanding the origin and history of the surname. For instance, the first recorded instance of a name in a particular country's census, or instances where there is documentation that a person has altered their surname, thereby establishing a new variant lineage. User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:07, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I think that #2 is not consistent with the goals of this WikiProject nor with what appears to be an emerging consensus from the discussion above at #Format for lists of people. However, I won't assume that, but rather put it to discussion. Thanks for your input. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:57, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, there is a third option for list content guidance that just occurred to me (duh). I have added it above as #3. This criterion might, in fact, exclude the inclusion of any notable person links, as none might be relevant to the article's topic. In fact, #3 would be a major change and would unambiguously and (perhaps) permanently put to rest the question of anthroponymy vs. disambiguation. Then we could defer name lists of all kinds to WikiProject Disambiguation for resolution and concentrate on the core of the WikiProject's aims. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:07, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I don't have a clear proposal or view on this yet. I started editing Hunt (surname) because it had some incorrect links, and ended by going for a quick fix rather than spending ages on it.

My initial inclination is to include the more notable persons with a name (given or surname), i.e. make a representative list rather than a comprehensive list. This was my approach when expanding Mona (name) recently, as there seem to be a lot of barely-notables by that name; I did include a geographic spread. However, I don't have a ready proposal for general selection criteria to support this approach.

As mentioned above, I an quite impressed by the concise selection at this version of Sarah. I prefer this to the long list at David (name) with its TV show contestants, etc.

For an example of a surname list that attempts to be comprehensive, with an alphabetical structure, including both the disambiguation pages and (some of) their members, see Collins (surname). I'm not saying it is right, but it's worth a look.

Responding to the three suggestions above:

1. Not my preference, but at least it's objective. The Sarah page was created in June 2006 and has stayed in a similar format ever since; it shows that a small selection of persons for a popular name can survive by consensus. However, whether long lists like David could be reduced, and then stay small by consensus, is another question. It would of course help if we (this project) reached consensus here on general principles.
2. Although I did this myself on Hunt, I don't think it is desirable as a fixed rule, because some ambiguous names were held by very notable persons, e.g. John Brown or George Washington.
3. sounds genuinely scientific i.e. pursuit of knowledge rather than random data, but could stray into original research. If we were to go with it, I'd be inclined to include real/fictional instances that added to or detracted from the popularity of the name, but this may be even more POV. Last thought: while this is a desirable section to be included in a (sur)name article (subject to reliable sources), it doesn't rule out having another section listing (the more) notable people with that name.

Other thoughts?- Fayenatic (talk) 23:01, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

No manual of style for name articles?

There doesn't appear to be any guideline article stating what surname or given name articles are supposed to look like. To what extent do they follow the same rules as Disambiguation pages? Is there only supposed to be one blue-linked term per entry, or can the pages be a sea of blue links as our article pages are? What about the other disambiguation manual of style guidelines? --Xyzzyplugh (talk) 19:17, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

• Surname and given name articles are not disambiguation pages or part of the dab page family and dab page MoS does not apply (by consensus agreement between the two WikiProjects and other editors; see for instance Archive4). There is a wide variety of article content formats presently and the articles aim to be articles about names, not just lists of instances. That being said, there are many many name articles that are lists (not dab pages). On the main page there are sections for examples of high-quality name articles and featured articles; additional 'good by consensus' articles could also include the A and B class articles (see the assessment table for category links). If you look on this talk page and the archives, you will see that participants in the project actively discuss best practice in article content, format and titling, though these discussions have not yet led to a MoS for name articles. Consider that other topical areas have been in existence and have more active participants than this one in most cases. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 20:16, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Thanks for your response. I am doing cleanup on Disambiguation pages, and I'm trying to figure out what to do with all these disambig pages which are about surnames and given names. What, for example, should be done regarding Peretz and Perica. Both of them contain entries for people with the article title as both a given name and a surname. Both of them are listed as Disambiguation pages. Should they simply have the Disambig template removed? And, what about those disambiguation pages which contain large numbers of name entries, but also non name entries? If you don't have a particular format you use which I can easily follow at this point, than I shall leave the surname and given name articles alone, but I still have to figure out what to do with all the name content which appears in the disambig category. --Xyzzyplugh (talk) 20:41, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Suggestions based on what we've been doing recently:
      • One-Name (surname/given name) articles that are labeled as disambiguation pages — replace {{disambig}} with either {{surname}} or {{given name}} or both depending upon content; add {{WikiProject Anthroponymy | class = | importance = }} to the talk page, removing {{disambigproject}} should it be present. We have been discussing how to properly title articles and it appears that the consensus is to go for "Bladdyboop (name)" in general if "Bladdyboop" is not available or contraindicated.
      • Disambiguation pages that include both one-name and non-name content — list these on the main Anthroponymy page in the section Articles that could be split. If you want to go about splitting some, take a look at the Splits from disambiguation pages for examples of how this has been done by several of us.

      --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 21:00, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

      • Ok, done for the two articles I mentioned above, and thanks again. --Xyzzyplugh (talk) 23:15, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I found my way here with a similar question. The problem is that the Wikipedia:WikiProject Disambiguation project page doesnt say anything about style for name pages and pipes the Wikipedia:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages) link so that it's easy to miss. Maybe the Wikipedia:WikiProject Anthroponymy welcome page should have a pointer? Sparafucil (talk) 07:53, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Rial

You might want to split this to save the name content, before we disambig cleanup people end up cleaning it all away. --Xyzzyplugh (talk) 08:54, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

What you are suggesting is that you are going to be deleting content for expediency rather than appropriately addressing content. It is the responsibility of the editor to 'do the right thing' not to warn another party that unless they do the right thing a steamroller is going to come and wipe it away. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 12:41, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

P.S. what Xyzzyplugh conveniently avoided saying is that the warning emerges from discussion over at WikiProject Disambiguation; see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Disambiguation#Disambiguation_page_cleanup_drive.3F. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 12:51, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Xyzzyplugh, we disambig cleanup people should keep all the content on Rial or take it upon ourselves to perform the split to an anthroponymy article and a disambiguation page as part of our cleanup tasks. -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:52, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I originally intended to add Rial to Wikipedia:WikiProject_Anthroponymy#Articles_that_could_be_split, but I wasn't sure if this was exactly the right place to put it, as the section didn't really explain itself, so I decided to just put it here. I was half joking about the "disambig cleanup people cleaning it all away" comment, the non-joking half of that being that it is possible that someone might come along and just chop out all the text which doesn't belong on a disambiguation page, as many people are aware of what disambiguation pages are supposed to look like while few are aware of WikiProject Anthroponymy.

The Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Disambiguation#Disambiguation_page_cleanup_drive.3F discussion had nothing to do with this, it was a proposal by someone else which had barely begun to be discussed (if it ever does go anywhere). I'm on my own personal cleanup drive, and my message above, which apparently came across badly, was not from anyone but me. I didn't intend any offense, nor did I intend to literally suggest that the WikiProject Disambiguation people were going to delete name content if you all didn't hurry up and save it. --Xyzzyplugh (talk) 18:07, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Considering a radical proposal - delete 90% of all name articles

I want you to seriously consider a radical proposal that I have been giving some thought to. By the primary notability criterion that the topic of an article needs to be the primary topic of one or more reliable sources, nearly 0% of name articles are 'notable'. However, notability is a guideline and there are many cases where it is trumped for a class of articles by other considerations. For instance, it is generally accepted that biological species are encyclopedic without meeting the primary notability criterion (consider the hundreds or thousands of plant stubs where the reference is an index listing in an external database). Further, someone proposing Martin (name) or Wang (surname) to be deleted would be accused of violating WP:POINT, even though neither of those articles are supported by topic-specific reliable sources. Therefore, we have a dilemma, in my opinion, around a specific criterion of what makes a name encyclopedic, and in the absence of that the entire topic area of this Project is vulnerable up to the fuzzy boundary of what should be included by general consensus as opposed to notability guideline. My thinking on this is that human names are as much a part of the natural world as are flower species — unlike, for instance, companies or car models. The question then is what can we do as a wikiproject by way of risk mitigation so that the assembled group can concentrate on improving the encyclopedia rather than fending off what I see as an eventual effort to prune content in this area back to the consensus core (those types of activities come in waves and have not reached this topic area in the time I have been working on it). A radical suggestion would be to take it upon ourselves to rigorously define an encyclopedic inclusion criteria set and act on it, perhaps leading to the deletion or merger of 80–90% of all anthroponymy articles, in order to secure a diamond-hard, essentially unassailable and eminently defensible core from which to expand out from. I toss that thought into the ring to be stalked and cornered. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 13:39, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

1. Referencing this sentence (By the primary notability criterion that the topic of an article needs to be the primary topic of one or more reliable sources, nearly 0% of name articles are 'notable'.), I'm unclear where you came up with 0%. I'm assuming that all/most editors on this project (including me) place an inline citation from a reliable source in each name article IAW WP:CITE, and that they are familiar with Wikipedia:WikiProject Anthroponymy#Name information links and Wikipedia:WikiProject Anthroponymy/External name resources when selecting a source.

   By "nearly 0%" I mean that there are very very few names that are the primary or sole topic of a work (this would be the "Significant Coverage" criterion at WP:N). I agree that there are many citations added by members of this Project (myself included). However, the vast majority of cited works treat a group of names and address the notability of the group rather than the notability of the individual names. For instance, consider "Lea and William top list of Quebec's most popular baby names in 2007". The topic of the article is forename selection trends reflected in most popular names of 2007; the topic is neither William or Lea. This is a reliable source, but in an AFD discussion mention of a topic in a news item is not the same as establishing notability for that topic. I am trying to play Devil's advocate here by taking a hard stance that I've seen evinced by people bent on deleting entire swathes of articles in the past.
   Another way of taking "nearly 0%" is to look at the "Presumed" criterion at WP:N. It could be argued that, for instance, William should be presumed to be notable based on the plethora of "top names" lists (popular, scholarly and official) that it appears on; another way to put this would be "we presume the most popular/common of names to be notable". This leads into thinking about encyclopedic inclusion criteria which you address below (3).
   sig--User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 23:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

2. There are many name articles created by editors who aren't a part of this project, and perhaps some of those editors aren't aware of WP:N/WP:CITE, therefore, some of those articles lack an inline citation. We could capture that data (missing citations) by running a Tag & Assess drive, such as WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008. We'd need to add a B-class criteria list (5 yes/no questions) such as this (Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Project banner) to our banner in order to capture uncited articles, articles lacking an infobox, etc. data.

   Agreed, many of the name articles have been created by people outside this Project. I would be more inclined to believe that most people who are occasional editors tend to know about notability and the need to present citations but ignore these needs for a variety of reasons, probably the most common being 'if it is TRUE, it belongs in Wikipedia' — which is patently wrong but a very widely held assumption among infrequent and first time editors.
   One source for finding articles lacking citations is to look at Category:Articles lacking sources. I perused Category:Articles lacking sources from June 2006 and found five instances (Pandarathil, Sava (name), Safavi, Sostre and Tabatabai). As there are 163 pages remaining in this category, this reveals a spot-frequency of 5/163 or 3% of unreferenced-tagged articles as in-scope for this WikiProject. Note that only 1 of the 5 has been tagged with our WikiProject Banner.
   A Tag&Assess drive would yield benefits; however, our article count is 10% or so of that for WikiProject Military History. It would not hurt to have a formal drive, but I don't think it is necessary. I only see occasional names pop up on AfD when I look, though I am not looking at PROD or CSD so there might be a steady flow out that channel.
   There are few good ways of comprehensively monitoring individual deletions from a significant article set; probably the most effective would be to auto-generate a page like Wikipedia:WikiProject Anthroponymy/All articles monitor where when the page is built all links would be blue and deletion indications would emerge if any turned red. I do not know myself how to auto-generate a page like that, but there are folks about who do (just need to find them).
   A B-Class criteria checklist would be quite good to add to the Project Banner, though they would need significant modification from those used for Military History; for instance, we would need to add something about global point-of-view (limited by availability of demographic data outside of the "Developed World").
   sig--User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:16, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

3. Referencing rigorously define an encyclopedic inclusion criteria set, I recommend that we develop and follow quality guidelines such as these the 5-part B-class criteria list mentioned above, or developing something like Wikipedia:WikiProject Music/MUSTARD in order to standardize articles and mitigate future risk of name articles becoming WP:AFD nominees. --Rosiestep (talk) 20:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree with the idea of deleting 90 percent of articles. I prefer instead to improve them with references. I have concentrated on creating articlse for names that are ranked in the top 10 on various popularity lists or have received a certain amount of media attention, such as Miley or the rhyming names Aidan, Braden, Caden, Hayden, and Jaden. I prefer an inclusive approach. Improve, don't remove. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 18:06, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Consider Niszczak. This is a documented surname, but it is documented in a directory-type source and there are no notable persons currently having biographies in Wikipedia. This article has been nominated for PROD-deletion and rather than de-PRODding it, I have put a copy-to-wiktionary tag on it. Preservation need not be limited to Wikipedia but can also include Wiktionary, in my opinion. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:14, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I would de-PROD it. If it's referenced and it's a surname, there's no reason not to leave it. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 15:08, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that it meets the verifiability requirement but not the notability guideline as I see it. This means that it is a proper deletion candidate. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 15:42, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the statements above insofar as they express a need that this project should set down notability criteria before other set it for us. We need to come up with clear guidelines on what a notable name and surname articles are. Remember (talk) 16:19, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

split category

Instead of managing "dab pages in need of name splitting" on this project page, why not create a repair category that editors like me that aren't into making the changes but want to help. I could then simply add the category to the dab page and you could pick it up from the category page. It would have the advantage that I wouldn't have to remember the name of this project ;-). (John User:Jwy talk) 22:29, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

It is a good idea. I suggest a template to be affixed to a dab page in similar manner to {{disambig-cleanup}}, entitled {{disambig-split}}; this could be used for all types of splits including those that are name-content driven. The code could be a variation of that used for {{disambig-cleanup}}, but we need to identify a proper informational page to link to that explains the rationale and consensus behind this cleanup activity. An alternative to creating a new template would be to expand the cleanup template to include a cleanup-type(s) parameter. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:17, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

A very good idea! --Rosiestep (talk) 00:43, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd prefer if it were just a category - and a hidden one. I'm not sure most people looking at the page need to know that it needs to be split. But that's just me and as long there is a way for me to mark it for you I'd be fine with it. (John User:Jwy talk) 01:20, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

:-) I saw that edit summary wondering where the category was when you needed it. I'll create the category momentarily ... I need to investigate how to make it hidden. Other embellishments like linking categorization to templates can take place in due time if desired. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:49, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

OK - all set --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

New category: Category:Disambiguation pages in need of being split --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:40, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Cool Thanks! (John User:Jwy talk) 02:33, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Disambiguation discussion of interest to Project

See Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation#List of Wikipedia articles starting with... where the inclusion of names on dab pages is among the topics. I have not added a comment there myself yet. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 10:59, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Polish surname information resources

One surname resource has been added to Wikipedia:WikiProject Anthroponymy/External name resources#Poland. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 17:59, 18 May 2008 (UTC) — expanded section with resource notes and a second, derivative resource for rank-order context. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 18:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Frequency tables

See Diaz, the frequency table I have included. Is this a useful format? What would you suggest in terms of revisions to the format? Would this be useful to implement across surnames (and given names) in general? Should it be templated for substing such that commonly encountered countries and columns are auto-added for filling? Thanks for your input. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 16:23, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I like the idea of the table. I think the format is useful. I just wish it had more data. I think it would be useful to implement some sort of standardize table to show popularity of the name across time and this format works for me. Also, I think once we have decided what the proper format should be we should make a template to make it easier for future formating. Remember (talk) 13:22, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I have been trying to collect some surname and given name frequency sources over at Wikipedia:WikiProject Anthroponymy/External name resources, but surname frequency sources seem rather rare. Any additions would be helpful and would go toward filling holes in a table of this kind. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:00, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Great Job!!! Have you checked out this page List of most popular given names. It has some links at the bottom as well as various sources in the footnotes. Remember (talk) 12:55, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. There is also List of most common surnames to include. I think devoting some time to cleaning up the citations for both of those articles and reflecting generally useful sources in the page I've started would be time well spent on my part. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:45, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I've implemented an alternative to the Diaz-style frequency table in Dąbrowski. The Diaz-style presents an epoch-by-country organization, while the Dąbrowski-style focuses on name-variant-by-country. Both styles are potentially useful in different situations. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 04:55, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

O (name)

Any suggestions of what to do with O (name)? Information on it overlaps with Oh and O (disambiguation). Can it be turned into a better name article? If it wants to be an article about the family name, it doesn't seem like it needs to be a disambiguation page, since we have O (disambiguation). Thanks -- Natalya 18:05, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I will turn the question on its side and ask whether there are any good sources for Chinese name origin information? That would help to flesh a name article out. Also, frequency information on Chinese names - where might that be found? --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 21:13, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Loomis (surname)

I just created Loomis (surname), the new home of 15 people with the surname Loomis who were formerly (and improperly, according to WP:MOSDAB) gathered at Loomis.

Questions: Does the surname page need a link back to the main Loomis page? Should it include the two fictional characters with the last name Loomis who are listed at the main page? --zenohockey (talk) 02:14, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

• link back to Loomis as a 'see also' section (example: Santos (surname)) and include fictional characters (example: Santos (surname)). --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 11:13, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Is it general practice to include fictional people on the name pages? I worry (slightly) that that could be kind of confusing (but, at the same time, it does also make some sense). I saw that there was some discussion on this at the top of the talk page, but have there been more discussions/any guidelines about it? -- Natalya 13:48, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Strike that question, I ran across Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Anthroponymy/Archive4#Fictional_characters. I think what I've taken from that is that yes, fictional characters do belong on the name pages, but that if they really are easily confusable with the disambiguation term of that same name, they can/should also be on the disambiguation page. -- Natalya 13:52, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad that the archive came in useful for you. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 22:32, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Its organization made the relevant information very easy to find! -- Natalya 22:58, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Done. Thanks! --zenohockey (talk) 03:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

• Shakespeare is a well known pseudonym associated with several plausible but unprovable real names and titles. ;-) Boldklub-PJs (talk) 18:02, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject Disambiguation - an hndis discussion

This WikiProject was mentioned in the discussion thread "Mick / Mike / Michael Hill" over at the Disambiguation WikiProject, which relates to a merge proposal. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 11:35, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Another mention

of this project at WT:WPDAB discussing various templates. --AndrewHowse (talk) 17:08, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Let's be more precise ... the existence of name articles with name lists versus disambiguation pages with name lists is again being discussed (related to the content of WP:MOSDAB). There remains confusion about how - when - why to use {{surname}} vs. {{hndis}} vs. {{disambig}}. Further, the discussion calls into question the notability of particular surnames once more (e.g. surname xxx isn't notable enough for an article). --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 11:07, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

On the subject of this discussion, we had some questions over at the bottom of Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Disambiguation#.7B.7Bsurname.7D.7D_vs._.7B.7Bhndis.7D.7D_vs._.7B.7Bdisambig.7D.7D.2C_etc that we were hoping some clarification could be brought to by you folks. Do take a look at the discussion, but the question in had is can a disambiguation page that has a list of people by that name be split off into a "name (surname)" page, or should those "name (surname)" pages only exist if there is material on the history, etymology of the name, etc? -- Natalya 20:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Future-class articles

So far we have quite a few redirects from given/last names. Some of them seem to be worthy of articles on their own (e.g. Barack). Some of the work on those articles has already started (e.g. Talk:Ballabon, however inconclusive at this point). On the assessment scale I think it is not appropriate to mark them as NA-class (no-article), that category is for truly non-articles, such as categories, etc. So I propose to utilize the Future-class. Marking an article as future-class is like red-linking it, the expectation is that someone will soon start the article and split it from redirect. This will show up in general statistics for the project and will eventually boost those articles into existence. Please share your thoughts on this. Yury Petrachenko (talk) 05:44, 4 June 2008 (UTC) UPDATE: Instead of Future-Class we should use Needed-Class. I will do the changes later on. Yury Petrachenko (talk) 18:11, 4 June 2008 (UTC) Done just that. Yury Petrachenko (talk) 05:49, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I also wanted to confirm that redirects to other articles within this project do not need to be classified as belonging to Project Anthroponymy? I am removing a few such occurrences to free up Category:Non-article Anthroponymy pages. We don't really need to keep track of all redirects unless we have interest in developing them into articles within our project. Yury Petrachenko (talk) 06:02, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

J. J.

Does this article belong to our project? Yury Petrachenko (talk) 07:10, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Never knew this project existed!

This is a great idea for a project. I somehow managed to miss that this existed. I've added the project tag to Ptolemy (name). Might I suggest someone does a search for all article with "(name)" or "(surname)" in the title and add them to this project? Carcharoth (talk) 04:47, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a great idea. I don't have enough time to do this, but someone should do it. Remember (talk) 16:33, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Finding lists of surnames

Cross posted to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Disambiguation#Finding lists of surnames.

I was wondering if people here knew about a fairly powerful way of finding lists of articles that may be useful for surname pages and surname disambiguation pages? It is similar to the "prefix index" method of finding all articles related to a given name (eg. All page starting "William", which I believe is part of one of the templates used on name articles). For surnames, you can try a search (and this is always needed because there are always some articles that aren't classified properly), but a good starting point is the entry in a category containing all articles about people. Now, this super-category doesn't yet exist (Category:People is currently subdivided rather than fully populated), but a good example does exist at Category:Living people. Assuming that the relevant articles are correctly sorted (by DEFAULTSORT or pipesorted for the 'living people' category), it is possible to jump to the relevant point in the category to find the articles on living people with the surname Brackman. This can then be compared with the articles Brackman, Brackman (name), and Brackman (surname) (none of these exist), and a normal search for Brackman, and the end result is a list of five names: Barbara Brackman, Levi Brackman, Andrew Brackman, Robert Brackman, and Jacob Brackman. My question is where people should go from here as far as constructing disambiguation pages (not really in scope here, but might as well be done at the same time) and name pages? Any advice? I found Wikipedia:Suggestions for name disambiguation, but that doesn't seem to be active at the moment. Carcharoth (talk) 18:46, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

It should be possible to make a list from a database dump of all pages with a title "Word1 Word2" with DEFAULTSORT "Word2, Word1". That would give you a large part of the answer. In fact, I'm doing this right now, and I'll put the results somewhere where you can find it. Eugène van der Pijll (talk) 19:19, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! Ultimately, what would be good would be a list of all surnames (ever!) piped through a template like the one over at the other discussion (that will teach me to cross-post). Would you be able to look at that as well? Carcharoth (talk) 19:44, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes. -- Eugène van der Pijll (talk) 21:03, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

One example of the possibilities: User:Eugene van der Pijll/surnames. Note that this is only for a small part of the database; it takes a long time to parse the entire Wikipedia. -- Eugène van der Pijll (talk) 21:39, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Matthew (given name)

This deletion discussion concerns members of WikiProject Anthroponymy. If you have an opinion on the matter, please contribute to the discussion. Neelix (talk) 19:24, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

New sub-page related to article creation

See Wikipedia:WikiProject Anthroponymy/Articles that could be created. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 10:17, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Suggestions for name disambiguation/Batch 3 for even more articles to be created. And when these are done, I have a list of another 20,000 surnames for you :) (Feedback welcome!)-- Eugène van der Pijll (talk) 21:44, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm ... not sure I agree with your requests for dab pages, since the people listed share a surname only. Dab pages for names usually ahve first and last in common. I'll post at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Disambiguation too. --AndrewHowse (talk) 23:00, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

It would appear that Eugene has a bot that does essentially what I was doing a bit of manually (at first glance). I agree with AndrewHowse that the suggestion to create dab pages is not consistent with where we or the Disambiguation project seem to have been going — a consensus that a page with a list of people who share a surname is not a dab page but a seed that can be expanded into a surname article (a type of stub, if you will; though I would avoid the term 'stub' in general, because they are really lists and not stubs ... stubs would have some bit of origin or other information in addition to the list). However, the consensus that there is the stated distinction is not based on mountains of people or a year or more of being in place; therefore, it isn't what I would characterize as 'writ in stone'. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 23:08, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I believe it's already been expressed, but just to clarify, as stated by Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(disambiguation_pages)#Given_names_or_surnames, disambiguation pages should not be made up of people who happen to have the first or last name of the term being disambiguated. People on a disambiguation page "Term" should only be there if they can legitimately be confused with "Term". The Manual of Style link gives good examples, but just for clarification, the disambiguation page Smith does not and should not contain anyone with the first or last name Smith. It, does however, link to the pages People with the surname Smith and Smith (surname), which are more appropriate for name information. -- Natalya 23:54, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

"the disambiguation page Smith does not and should not contain anyone with the first or last name Smith": that is actually only true because of the enormous number of "Smith" articles. WP:MOSDAB says you can include people named ZYXW on a dab page ZYXW, as long as you have a separate section; only when the number of people named ZYXW is too large, you'd create a separate page ZYXW (surname); and if the only ZXYW's in the database are surnames, the disambiguation term "(surname)" doesn't have to be included in the page title. Note that people are often called by just their surnames, so there should be a way to find someone when you only know their surname. That is what my list of proposed {{surname}} articles is about. -- Eugène van der Pijll (talk) 18:58, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Are you arguing that if there were only 4 people with the surname Smith in Wikipedia (say A. Smith, B. B. Smith, C. Smith and C. Smith, Jr.) that these should be included on a dab page entitled [[Smith]]? I think this is consistent with a comment over at Talk:Takeda where the argument for not splitting to separate dab and surname was stated (roughly) as "it's not long enough to split. (I did split, though) --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 19:15, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

outdent I will remove the page I created anew shortly as being redundant with the bot-generated material. I'll also add a referral to Eugene's work on the main page. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 11:44, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Importance and List-type articles

I had originally thought that if both an article and a list existed for a name that the list should inherit the same importance (WikiProject Banner parameter) as the article. However, I am thinking now that this is not really right. What would you say to having a default Importance for list-type articles of 'low' ... if both an article and list-article exist? This guideline would be thrown out if only the list-article exists. The current instances that come to mind are the article pairs

• Smith (surname) and People with the surname Smith
• Johnson and People with the surname Johnson
• Williams (surname) and List of people sharing the surname Williams

Each of these has 'top' importance for the article. Should 'top' importance be inherited by the list-article? Or should the list be given a default 'low' importance.

--User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 23:50, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Hodgson

I recently came across Hodgson, and while updating that list, found Hodgson (surname). I tagged the latter with the project talk page template. The list at Hodgson is a bit of a mess, but I'm about to tidy it up. It was originally a list of 17 people named Hodgson. I then added 23 people from the "Living people" category, and then another 21 people after searching Wikipedia. Add in a couple more, and discount a few disambiguation pages, and that's new total of over 60 people named Hodgson. I'm afraid I'm just about Hodgson'd out now! If anyone could tidy up what I've started, I'd be very grateful. Thanks. Oh, and Abbad is a bit smaller, but a fascinating journey of a name across the ages and across the world! Carcharoth (talk) 22:19, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Merged the surname article into the base name, and split the dab page off on its own. --JHunterJ (talk) 01:43, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. At what point would the list be large enough to be its own page? It is currently 60 names, and I'm concerned that people looking for a Hodgson mentioned somewhere, with only initials, or only a surname, might now miss the list because it is "below the fold" and the history of the name is first. Ideally, such lists will become redundant if a proper "index of people" is set up. But until that happens, we are stuck with lists like this. Carcharoth (talk) 07:40, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

It could be split off now, but it would be split off to List of people with the surname Hodgson, not at the base name. The base name should be either an article about the primary topic (the surname in this case) or a disambiguation page. A list of people by family name should never be at the base name if there is also a Surname (surname) article. -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:09, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Index of people

There was an extensive index of people that had many person-months of work behind it. It was deleted with a lot of consensus to delete behind it (dozens of pages and sub-pages). An alternative is to bot-create a set of redirects tagged with {{R from sort name}}; these would be valuable in the context of [[2]] or in one of the several biographical categories. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 10:11, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I saved a copy of that list, but it is rather large to do anything useful with. Carcharoth (talk) 23:09, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

If we have the full set of page titles then the information can be recovered by viewing the deleted content. Do you have a full page title list that could be put up as a sub-page to this wikiproject for reference? Not the full listing, just the title list. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:13, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Part of the list is at Template:List of people by name compact page-index. See also Template:List of people by name exhaustive page-index (sectioned). That should, eventually, give you all the pages. But as I said, I had a list of the names saved off-line. It is the answers.com mirror copies - around 850 separate pages. I'm wary though of any attempt to recreate that. It needs to be more manageable, as you said, via use of redirects of the form "Smith, Greg", or using DEFAULTSORTed categories, like the set up at User:Carcharoth/List of living people compact index. Something like that, but for all people, both living and dead, would be ideal. The problems are deciding on a category name and ensuring people add the category to all people articles. At the TfD, I objected to the use of DEFAULTSORT inside {{lifetime}}, but I now think that getting that template put on all people articles, and then creating an "index category" to put in the template, in a quick way of adding an index to all the articles. Would that work, do you think? Carcharoth (talk) 02:39, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion for a new page: Noticeboard

How would people take to the notion of creating the page Wikipedia:WikiProject Anthroponymy/Notice board and placing this into Category:Wikipedia noticeboards? The purpose of such creation would be two-fold. First, it would serve to increase the visibility of the WikiProject. Second, it would allow dedicating this talk page to WikiProject business while dedicating the Notice board page to things like alerts of pending deletions and requests for assistance (like the directly preceding Hodgson thread).

What do you think?

--User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:34, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

That would be a good idea, though watch out for one or other of the pages falling into disuse. Only really works if you have enough traffic to keep eyes on them, or if people use their watch lists properly. Carcharoth (talk) 07:37, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Agree with both comments. Remember (talk) 12:26, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Li (surname) - should it be a dab page?

The following was placed on Talk:Li (surname); a notice has also been placed with the Dab WikiProject:

Shouldn't this be a disambiguation page? These are distinct names in Chinese, and the fact that English phonetics isn't robust enough to distinguish between them doesn't have anything to do with that.--Isaac R (talk) 22:21, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

• agree — should probably be a dab page. Looking at the content, one could argue that the page provides disambiguation among the Chinese character representations of the anglicized form "Li". I am wondering whether there is precedent for this type of dab page or not. As an alternative, perhaps the page could be eliminated in favor of merging content to Li? --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 16:29, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

• agree too - insofar as it would disambiguate the various family names rendered as Li in English. "It" in the previous sentence might be Li or Li (surname); I think I prefer the former, for the latter would just be a subset of all the Li articles. --AndrewHowse (talk) 17:06, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Anthroponymy Man. of Style: List-article titles

Back in April 2008 (see #Stand-alone lists of names above), I made the following suggestion for a Manual of Style entry for the naming of list-type articles that fall in the scope of this WikiProject:

A stand-alone list of people sharing a name should be titled according to list naming guidelines and have the form of "List of people ___".

There are now nine articles in Category:Lists of people sharing a surname, which I created back in March 2008, and the articles have the following name formats:

• List of people sharing the name XXXX
• List of people sharing the surname XXXX
• List of people named XXXX
• People with the surname XXXX
• List of people with surname XXXX

That's a lot of diversity.
I am going to assume that we would desire some degree of standardization. Four of the five types shown abide by the suggested guideline above. Looking at these instances, is the proposed guideline sufficient, or should it be more specific? If more specific, how do you think it should be more specific?

I will start things off with my opinion.

• more specific first choice: "List of people sharing the surname XXXX"; second choice: "List of people with surname XXXX" --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:41, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

"List of people sharing the surname XXXX" seems a little wordy to me, so I'd lean towards "List of people with surname XXXX". Is there a particular grammatical reason to have "List of people sharing the surname XXXX"? -- Natalya 11:13, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that one is grammatically correct and the other not; one meaning of "with" is "posessing, having" according to AskOxford. The "with surname" form, though, nags me as feeling ... not quite right, but I think that is simply a personal thing. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 11:42, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Anthroponymy Man. of Style: Content of list-articles

A question emerging from the title standardization thread above is what the content of a list-article should be. This boils down to a couple of options:

• surname and given name people lists should be kept separate
• keep surname and given name lists in the same list-article
• really, only lists of people with a particular surname are needed; don't bother with lists of people sharing a given name

I will start things off again with my opinion.

• keep the lists separate (with 'we don't need given name lists' as a runner-up choice) --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:41, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

It might be useful to distinguish between cases where a given name is very common (no real need to have a list, and in any case, the prefix index works well here), and cases where a given name is rare and interesting and might be worth mentioning in an article (if a reliable source can be found commenting on the rareness and interest of the name). In particular, cases where a name is both a surnacme and a given name might be interesting for the history of how this duality arose. Some recent examples I came across were Hodgson Pratt, Studholme Hodgson, Shadworth Hodgson (see also Montague Shadworth Seymour Moore and John Shadworth in List of Lord Mayors of London) and Adebayo (it is not clear there whether this is a case of surname, given name switching taking place in England to adapt to local custom, as opposed to Nigerian custom). That page also has a compound name - any advice on whether compound names should also be included in such lists, and in what format? Carcharoth (talk) 23:03, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

New hatnote template: splitdab

Newly created hatnote template → {{splitdab}}. Comments? --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 12:22, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Surely this would only be used in disputed cases? Are such disputed cases that common? Is it not easier to in most cases either do the split yourself, or to use a different tag to request experienced editors to come and do the split (they could find such articles in an appropriate category. Carcharoth (talk) 22:55, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

It is far less time consuming to slap {{splitdab}} on an article than to actually do it; not in every instance is the time there to Just Do It, but there is usually time enough to Ask Someone Interested to Just Do It. The category Category:Disambiguation pages in need of being split is the alert category. I've created this template as one in the _split_ series, so it is not a tag indicating potential dispute, but a maintenance tag. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 19:19, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Changes to the WP:1.0 assessment scheme

As you may have heard, we at the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial Team recently made some changes to the assessment scale, including the addition of a new level. The new description is available at WP:ASSESS.

• The new C-Class represents articles that are beyond the basic Start-Class, but which need additional references or cleanup to meet the standards for B-Class.
• The criteria for B-Class have been tightened up with the addition of a rubric, and are now more in line with the stricter standards already used at some projects.
• A-Class article reviews will now need more than one person, as described here.

Each WikiProject should already have a new C-Class category at Category:C-Class_articles. If your project elects not to use the new level, you can simply delete your WikiProject's C-Class category and clarify any amendments on your project's assessment/discussion pages. The bot is already finding and listing C-Class articles.

Please leave a message with us if you have any queries regarding the introduction of the revised scheme. This scheme should allow the team to start producing offline selections for your project and the wider community within the next year. Thanks for using the Wikipedia 1.0 scheme! For the 1.0 Editorial Team, §hepBot (Disable) 22:21, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Similar but different names

When names are similar in spelling and sound, but of different origin, is it a good idea to use {{Distinguish2}} on them. See Abbadi and Abbadie for examples (obviously, if there is any connection, that would have to be sourced before merging the two) - we should, ideally, also confirm with sources if they are unconnected names, but that might be more difficult. Any advice? Also, when names are very similar, how can you check whether they are spelling variants or not. See Abbagnale for an example. Carcharoth (talk) 23:13, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

They should be linked to each other, of course. Some form of hatnote is appropriate, but you can also use a "See also" section, like I did at Abbadia.

The criteria to merge two names depends on whether they are pages about the surname or pages with lists of people. The first category may be merged if the names are related and the story behind the two names is (almost) the same; the second category may be merged if the names look the same and are often confused. I wouldn't merge the Abbadi, Abbadie, and Abbadia pages; they are lists, and (I guess) they are not often confused because each name is confined within one culture (Arabic, French, Italian). When pages about these surnames themselves are written, I'd discuss Abbadie and Abbadia in the same article, but not Abbadi, because it (presumably) has a different meaning and etymology. -- Eugène van der Pijll (talk) 19:07, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Aguda

Sorry, another query for the noticeboard. Please feel free to move it there when it opens. I recently created Aguda, but it turned into a bit of a mess. Seems to be one of those names from several different languages, and it is not clear whether there is any connection, or if they are independent names that sound or are spelt the same. There is a Spanish connection, a Portuguese connection, a Nigerian connection, a detour to Brazil and African slavery there, a return to Nigeria, and even a Chinese connection, though hopefully the Chinese connection is just a transliteration thing. It's even ended up in the Antarctic to name a (presumably) sharp-pointed headland. There may also be a Hebrew connection. Any advice on how to handle this? Carcharoth (talk) 11:42, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

A discussion

An important discussion on " Should WikiProjects get prior approval of other WikiProjects (Descendant or Related or any ) to tag articles that overlaps their scope ? " is open here . We welcome you to participate and give your valuable opinions. -- TinuCherian ^{(Wanna Talk?)} - , member of WikiProject Council. 14:32, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Farshad deletion

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Farshad might benefit from input from members of this project. --Beef Dripping (talk) 13:09, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Input requested: Articles flagged for cleanup

Currently, 3499 articles are assigned to this project, of which 275, or 7.9%, are flagged for cleanup of some sort. (Data as of 14 July 2008.) Are you interested in finding out more? I am offering to generate cleanup to-do lists on a project or work group level. See User:B. Wolterding/Cleanup listings for details. More than 150 projects and work groups have already subscribed, and adding a subscription for yours is easy - just place a template on your project page.

If you want to respond to this canned message, please do so at my user talk page; I'm not watching this page. --B. Wolterding (talk) 17:11, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

• Tentative support — without having looked at the details, I would say this is good in concept. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:35, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Tentative support, per Ceyockey comment. --Rosiestep (talk) 06:24, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support - Agreed. Remember (talk) 12:39, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Usage of the WikiProject Banner

There are two discussion threads that relate to my comments here:

• Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Justification for WikiProject tags?
• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies#LGBT Wikiproject template inclusion statement

Following from these threads, I do think it is beneficial to have some statement as to what benefit application of {{Anthroponymy}} confers on an article and the encyclopedia. In particular, what benefit does such tagging have over using a simple category or a 'mini banner' that is far less obtrusive than the full blown banner?

The benefits for this WikiProject are pretty obvious, chief among them being that the Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Anthroponymy articles by quality statistics table provides a great overview of the topic area covered by the WikiProject, even if only a fraction of all in-scope articles are tagged.

The benefits for Wikipedia as a whole are less obvious - at least to me.

Harking back to some commentary I made here back in mid-May, I said that a "B-Class criteria checklist would be quite good to add to the Project Banner...." Revisiting this, I do think that the benefit to Wikipedia varies depending upon the quality-level of the article. My gut tells me that articles below C-class do not benefit substantially from placement of a WikiProject banner. Everything that is in-scope for this Wikiproject should be tagged with either {{surname}} or {{given name}} and/or be placed in Category:Surnames, Category:Given names or one of the many sub-categories descending from these.

If one were to append a B-class checklist to articles that are C-class (or Start-class, if we decide to forgo C-class), that would provide editors both inside and outside the WikiProject with a set of goals to work toward for those articles. That is a tangible benefit to Wikipedia as a whole. Another way of saying this is that if we add a banner, it needs to provide some guidance regarding improvement of the article; simply stating a class and importance is not enough to justify the tag ... particularly when we do not have consensus-driven measures of importance at this stage (insufficient discussion to have led to this so far).

What are my suggestions?

• I do not suggest that a mass, systematic removal of banners take place.
• I suggest that addition of banners to stub, list and redirect type pages end.
• I suggest that removal of a banner from these page types not be challenged.
• I suggest that a revision to {{Anthroponymy}} be attempted that conditionally substitutes to the talk page given the condition "class=start" a checklist of criteria leading to B-class that is meant to allow for editors to indicate completion and/or status on items.
• I further suggest that if the addition of the B-checklist is successful and well received that a further revision of {{Anthroponymy}} be done that conditionally substitutes to the talk page given condition "class=B" a checklist of criteria leading to Good-article status ... and so on.

I think that adoption of these suggestions would have a negative effect on the article count attributed to the WikiProject via the class/importance table, but it would have a positive effect on article improvement. Overall, the complexity of the WikiProject would not increase substantially, and might decrease. Though the code-complexity of the WikiProject Banner template would substantially increase, the technical complexity of use would not change and the application complexity would decrease as the number of use cases for its application would decrease.

Thanks for considering this long-winded proposal and for contributing to discussion of its merits. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 02:03, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Japanese/Chinese characters and name readings

Hey, y'all!
I, personally, would like to propose that (I/you/we/everybody/just me/whomever) could add name readings to pages that are about specific kanji (kanji being the Japanese word for a Chinese character (example: 木)). There are a lot of interesting readings for different kanji that could be posted.
For example:
This character: 巽
Means: south-east
Is read: [on: そん　(romanji: son)] [kun: たつみ　(romanji: tatsumi)]
Has a name (名）reading of: せん　(romanji: sen) [and/or] ゆずる　(romanji: yuzuru)
This seems like a fairly interesting idea, although verification may be a little iffy. There are several textbooks/dictionaries that include these readings (example: The Kodansha Kanji Learner's Dictionary) and could be used as sources. I'm new at citing sources because I'm usually too lazy to do so (laugh) but it might work.
Also, some of this/a lot of this might take place on the Wiktionary but some of it belongs here.
Hope you like my idea!
best wishes, The Head Baka (talk) 21:07, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Willard

I've split Willard into Willard (name), and added it to Wikipedia:WikiProject Anthroponymy#Splits from disambiguation pages. Not sure what else needs to be done (I'm just a Dab-watcher). Ta :) -- Quiddity 01:47, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Category:Lists of ambiguous human names at CFD

Category:Lists of ambiguous human names is being discussed at CFD. Please join the discussion on renaming. older ≠ wiser 21:22, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

For the record: kept, renamed as Category:Human name disambiguation pages. - Fayenatic (talk) 13:33, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Reverted revision of Template:Surname

Recently {{surname}} was revised so that all pages tagged with the template went into Category:Disambiguation. I edited this revision away on the basis that there had been no (that I can see) discussion leading to this revision and that there is not a consensus that surname pages are disambiguation pages. If I have erroneously reversed this edit based on conversations I have not been paying attention to, could someone please hit me with a halibut and say some words about the current state of affairs? Thanks --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:49, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your position, Ceyockey. There was some discussion at the disambiguation project a while back, now archived here. It didn't really reach consensus, but there was an absence of disagreement, at least. I haven't noticed any further discussion at that project. --AndrewHowse (talk) 01:40, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Palin page needs eyes

Hello all, We seem to have had a small circle of editors (myself included) looking at the "disambiguation" page for Palin. A lot of the arguments involve what is commonly done elsewhere for shared surnames. The input of members of this project would be welcome. Hobit (talk) 18:01, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia 0.7 articles have been selected for Anthroponymy

Wikipedia 0.7 is a collection of English Wikipedia articles due to be released on DVD, and available for free download, later this year. The Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team has made an automated selection of articles for Version 0.7.

We would like to ask you to review the articles selected from this project. These were chosen from the articles with this project's talk page tag, based on the rated importance and quality. If there are any specific articles that should be removed, please let us know at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.7. You can also nominate additional articles for release, following the procedure at Wikipedia:Release Version Nominations.

A list of selected articles with cleanup tags, sorted by project, is available. The list is automatically updated each hour when it is loaded. Please try to fix any urgent problems in the selected articles. A team of copyeditors has agreed to help with copyediting requests, although you should try to fix simple issues on your own if possible.

We would also appreciate your help in identifying the version of each article that you think we should use, to help avoid vandalism or POV issues. These versions can be recorded at this project's subpage of User:SelectionBot/0.7. We are planning to release the selection for the holiday season, so we ask you to select the revisions before October 20. At that time, we will use an automatic process to identify which version of each article to release, if no version has been manually selected. Thanks! For the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial team, SelectionBot 23:32, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Akira (name)

There is an image on the page. Does this WikiProject permit these kinds of things? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 02:39, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes; see the examples for William (name) and Smith (surname) on our project page.

The documentation at Template:Infobox Given name 2 and Template:Family name currently just says "insert a relevant image". Perhaps we should formulate a policy for such images. If the meaning of the name lends itself to illustration, like Smith, then that would be a good choice, but perhaps this should be superseded in cases where there is one individual who is clearly the most notable to hold a name. This could be a real person (e.g. David (name)), legendary (Guinevere for Jennifer (given name)) or fictional character (Wendy).

Any cases without a clear leader could be discussed on the article's talk page. It would probably not be allowable to re-use a WP:NONFREE image on a Name page, unless the character was clearly the origin of the name or demonstrably led to its popularity.

In the case of Akira, the Japanese film director Akira Kurosawa is probably by far the most notable person with the name, and demonstrably so by reference to his many awards, so I support the use of his image in the Name article. - Fayenatic (talk) 17:08, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok. Thanks for clearing that up. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 17:41, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

As a matter of establishing precedent, I have put a section on Talk:Akira (name) entitled "Article image rationale". --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:54, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Excellent idea. - Fayenatic (talk) 14:45, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Again with the popularity contests...

Here is what I've recent told User:Fayenatic london:

Heya...barring consensus, I've reverted back to the lack of list as discussed previously. I still stand by my decision that any such list is guaranteed to be flawed. How do we determine who is notable enough for listing? Current famous-ness? Why is Jennifer Aniston (one actress, listed) more notable than Jennifer Beals (another actress, not listed) or Jennifer Jason Leigh (actress, also not listed)? Is any actress more notable than a famous author (Jennifer Crusie, not listed) or an award-winning movie director (Jennifer Jako, not listed)? Basically, who determines this, and more importantly, who gets dropped off the list when someone "more notable" comes along? This sort of list becomes a popularity contest, with Wikipedia editors failing to keep to WP:NPOV by any edit of it.

...and as much as I hate to be a jerk, I will continue to be bold and remove those lists, until a strong consensus or a strict and specific guideline tells me otherwise. I feel like I'm not being nice to other peoples' work in this, but really, if there is one thing I definitely can make a judgment on for name pages, it's this. --Kickstart70-T-C 03:06, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I take it, then, that you will be eliminating most of the list content from Akira (name) in due course? --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 11:58, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I believe there is a majority view within this project that name articles should include a list of people with the name. However, there is a policy gap over selection in the case of popular names. Special:PrefixIndex/Akira is a lot more extensive than the current list in Akira (name); Jennifer and David are obviously even more widespread. Matthew (given name) was split from the name article, then redirected to it after an inconclusive AFD.

I want to see some people listed in every name article, but not as many as at David (name) or Hayes (surname).

I would argue for a selective list of the most notable, like this version of Sarah, which lasted for a long time. Can't we formulate criteria for inclusion, e.g. winners of awards/leadership in each person's respective field? I would also suggest that we agree an indicative range of maximum numbers, and if the award-winners exceed this, then limit the list to winners of multiple awards etc.

Other possible criteria for inclusion might allow a small number of less notable cases that illustrate the historical and geographical coverage/popularity of a name.

If this is agreed, it would become good practice to start adding <!-- hidden inline comments --> on each line to justify its inclusion in the list/table. - Fayenatic (talk) 14:45, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I think again we run into the problem in even developing a short list of influential people in a category or industry. Certainly we have enough notability for a Wikipedia page for every person with that given name that would be listed. Is there a second, more important, criteria for super-notability that qualifies them for the list of people on the name page? What form does that take? We are not here to make value judgments that Jennifer Aniston is more notable than Jennifer Beals or Jennifer Saunders...their notability has already been judged by the fact that they have Wikipedia pages at all (I pick on the Jennifer page again because the name is and was so unbelievably popular in the 70s and therefore there are a ton of notable people with that name...but the same could be said of David, Matthew, Bruce or Charles). Basically, we are trying to introduce a guideline for name pages that actually overrides policy, specifically WP:NPOV. Not only are we as a collective not capable of making that value judgment, we are not supposed to do so. Further, we border on creating a WP:Coatrack by inclusion of such lists, obfuscating an encyclopedia article about the name with trivia that certain people happen to have that name. Even more, this is exactly what Special:PrefixIndex/Jennifer is for. The one case that I agree with for a list of people in a name page is those who are specifically known just by that name. Madonna (entertainer) on the Madonna page, is a perfect example of this. --Kickstart70-T-C 02:12, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Choosing objectively the most notable of various actresses would be the easy part, thanks to the availability of reliable sources for awards, as I suggested already. It would be less straightforward to rank the relative notability of people in different professions, but I think this would work reasonably well with reasons stated inline and discussion on talk pages.

It would be helpful to agree an ideal range for the number of examples, whether "five to ten" or "20 to 30", as this would give a policy justification to trim coatracks like David (name).

People known by just the name should be on the disambiguation page but, unlike Madonna, Jenifer may not be anywhere near as notable as others to include on the name article, so I wouldn't necessarily agree to list them and not others. - Fayenatic (talk) 07:48, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, i think you have almost classically made Kickstart's point. What does the number of awards have to do with the person's given name?. Is an actress more notable because of the number of awards she has won? What does someone's "level/rank of notability" even have to do with the given name article, anyway? Unless someone is referred to in a solid source about the given name, then they shouldn't even be included in the article at all..

I think it should be "all or none" - either all notables are included in a list, or none are. That way there can be no weird games of how notability is measured.--Celtus (talk) 08:53, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Ideally one would include names that provide insight into the use, origin, meaning, distribution and/or history of the name itself; for instance, documentation that the use of a particular given name by someone who became very famous led to a surge in the use of that name in later years. Other encyclopedic uses of name instances would be to report first arrival in various countries (for instance by a settler), first known usage overall, usage by a particularly infamous figure that led to a downturn in usage, or even a skewing in usage along religious or political lines due to fame of a holder belonging to a particular political party or professing a particular religion. Those sorts of things are all content builders rather than simply list expanders. However, all of that content is quite hard to support with reliable sources without delving into original research - but that is a particular challenge for articles addressed by this wikiproject. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 21:17, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that consideration as well. I agree with much, maybe all, of your assessment. So, if I may propose at this point that we begin a sample page in userspace that takes any particular name (of someone else's choosing...I've argued Jennifer quite enough now) that we work to be close to the ideal name page. Then, using that, we can push for a consensus here for a standard layout and content...and from there begin a mass implementation of what we agree on. Volunteers for the userspace sandbox creation? --Kickstart70-T-C 00:48, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not persuaded that Wikipedia policy drives us to either "all or nothing". Editing most articles is a matter of judgement as to what is material enough to include in the context of the article. It's not a function that could be automated by feeding sources and policies into a machine -- editing is an art as well as a science. Celtus challenges "more notable because of the number of awards" -- I don't understand, why ever not? Anyway, let's give Ceyockey's and Kickstart's proposal a try. List of most popular given names has a bunch of sources that may be helpful starting points; some (e.g. Malta's NSO) comment on the reasons for trends. I nominate David (name). Why not work on it as a subpage of this project, rather than in user space? - Fayenatic (talk) 17:43, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Eliana needs citations

Several etymological speculations, no references. The article is promoting a Hebrew etymology, yet the Wiktionary entry for Elaine says it's from Greek Helen. A is putting the smack down (talk) 16:20, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Pages listing stub-like entries on same name

See also Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Disambiguation#Pages listing stub-like entries on same name

Is there a tag to apply to pages like Abundantius and Aglaophon and Alexander (artists)? These pages are invariably dealing with disambiguation of ancient historical names, but the information is so scanty (typically Roman or Greek or medieval saints or other sources from antiquity) that there are unlikely to be individual pages about the people concerned. Some are incorrectly in Category:Multiple people (or a subcategory of that category). The current "name" and "disambig" tags all presume that people coming to the page will want to correct the link to point somewhere else, but in many cases this page contains the needed information. These are more names lists than name disambiguation pages. I am asking here and at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Disambiguation what is the best thing to do. Apologies for cross-posting again, but many issues like this do seem to affect both projects. Carcharoth (talk) 14:09, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Filling out List of people with surname Taylor

For the past few months (yes, months), I've been slowly working on filling out (and cleaing up) the various Taylor disambig pages we have in the wiki, and getting all the Taylors listed on List of people with surname Taylor. It's entertaining because it's such a large job -- I think there are over 50+ listed there currently, and I'm sure there are many, many more to add. I thought I'd mention it here, in case anyone wants to join me. JesseW, the juggling janitor 07:31, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Subsequent use of Spanish surnames in biographies

I have just posted a call for consensus on the style of Spanish surnames at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(biographies)#Subsequent_use_of_Spanish_surnames. Comments are invited from the members of this project. --Unconventional (talk) 02:08, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Proposal for standard link from individual articles to surname articles

I propose that a Wikipedia article for a particular individual should have a link to an article for that individual's surname. Or, at least, the author should have an easy, standard means of providing such a link. Preferably, this link would be in a standardized location and consume as little screen space as possible. For example, a link to the Hunziker surname entry should exist at the entry for Otto Frederick Hunziker and, at the same general screen location, at the entry for Karl Otto Hunziker. Such a link could help those reading the individual's article find more information on the individual's family. Such a link would also help those maintaining or reading the surname article find relevant individuals (via the "what links here" function).

I am not aware of a standard location or means of linking an individual's article to the associated surname article. One solution would be a standard surname parameter in the individual's infobox that creates such a link. The benefit of such solution would be that the location is efficiently located within an existing infobox (not cluttering additional screen space) and would be at a standard location (thus assisting user navigation). Also, infoboxes are widely used and such integration would provide consistency. The disadvantage is that, while there is a standard "Person" infobox, there are many other categories of infoboxes used for individuals. None appear to have a surname field, let alone create a link to the surname article. An existing WikiProject purports to cover this collection of infoboxes and might be able to assist in assessing this proposal.

A Surnamelinks template provides a means of linking to a surname entry. However, the template is rarely used. (Based on "what links here", I might be the only user.) While I greatly appreciate the template author's work, the displayed result consumes a significant amount of screen space and does not provide a standard location. As mentioned above, integration into standard biography infoboxes would probably encourage greater adoption and would provide a more standardized navigation interface.

One issue that should be addressed is the fact that many modern surnames, especially in the United States, are derivative of original root surnames. The link to a surname entry may need to be a link to an entry for the root surname (which may not be the individual's surname). For example, the entry for Chuck Hunsinger should (arguably) contain a link to the Hunziker surname entry. Perhaps the best approach would be to provide for both a Surname parameter and a RootSurname parameter and provide a template to determine if one or the other exists and act accordingly. Or perhaps redirection at Hunsinger will provide the same function.

A second issue is that sometimes a family entry exists. For example, see the Bach family entry. I am unsure if some means of addressing a family entry as well as a surname entry is feasible or appropriate.

Thoughts?--Rpclod (talk) 17:48, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Needed-Class

Hi there! I'm a developer of {{WPBannerMeta}}, the meta-template that your project banner is based on. Following changes there we're intending to rescind default support for "Needed-Class", which your project uses in the form of Category:Needed-Class Anthroponymy articles. There is an alternative system in place which makes it easy for the project to continue using this special class if you wish to do so, but I'm curious as to whether you think it is actually helpful to your project to have articles tagged in this way. Should I go ahead and implement the workaround to maintain the "Needed-Class" through this transition, or would you prefer it to be removed? Happy‑melon 22:09, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

I'd never noticed it before, but it has been added to 57 articles, or rather pages which currently redirect to individuals. It seems useful to retain this category. So, please do implement the workaround. - Fayenatic (talk) 22:54, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

I know it's used, that was the first thing I checked :D My question is, is it useful, and is it worth the effort required to maintain it? Happy‑melon 16:18, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Question on procedure

What should I do with the page Furtado:

1. Leave it alone
2. Add the surname template (although I've been warned against this, since it would put the article in the category Surnames when it's already in Portuguese surnames).
3. Add the surname|nocat template (this would add the banner but no categories - I want to classify this page as a disambig, so it doesn't help me)
4. Add the disambig template (this would categorize Furtado as a disambig page without adding the Surnames category)
5. Remove the Portuguese surnames category and add a surname template
6. Something else

I'm writing scripts that identify orphaned articles, and have seen several of these (Insert ethnicity) surnames articles that have little or no information besides a list of names. I'd like to convert them to disambig pages so they don't get tagged as orphans, but want to know the proper procedure. --JaGa^talk 16:54, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

IMHO, applying {{disambig}} would be wrong because the page as it stands doesn't distinguish between a heterogeneous collection of topics with the same name. If there were several people named Jorge Furtado, then we would need a dab page and use {{hndis}}. I thin it's either a surname page (options 2 or 3) or a set index article. --AndrewHowse (talk) 17:33, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. You know, #3 might work - it looks like putting the nocat on the surname template still lands the article in Category:All disambiguation pages after all. So that's what I'll do. --JaGa^talk 03:12, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

New user to join the project

Hello! I am interested in etymology of first names. I have noticed that many names pages do not cite any sources or references, and sometimes have an inaccurate information that needs to be verified and corrected. I have already updated a couple of articles (for instance, Clement and Muriel) and added several links. I would continue updating the names pages from time to time if you think this is a helpful work. I would also join your group with pleasure (I've got a message from Fayenatic about your project). Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks!

TedSwarovski (talk) 16:12, 7 January 2009 (UTC)\

Your work is most appreciated. Please continue doing it. Also, please feel free to join the group. We can use all the help we can get. Remember (talk) 18:16, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I will! Thank you! TedSwarovski (talk) 20:03, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Placement of surname and given name templates on disambiguation pages

I'm trying to initiate some discussion regarding placement of {{surname}} and {{given name}} on disambiguation pages at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages)#surname and given name templates on dab pages. Since the templates are ostensibly part of this project, any input will be welcome. older ≠ wiser 13:10, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

• My above proposal is somewhat similar. While my proposal does not relate to disambiguation pages, it does address how articles on individuals link to surname pages. Query whether usability would be enhanced as much by standard links to surname pages from individual entries as by standard links from disambiguation pages. (That is not rhetorical. I don't have a good idea regarding standard user behavior.)--Rpclod (talk) 17:04, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Category:All disambiguation page

There is now a discussion about how the disambig, set index and name boxes should categorise pages. See the discussion over at Template talk:Dmbox#Category:All disambiguation pages.

--David Göthberg (talk) 10:15, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

This concerns what tracking category {{surname}} and {{given name}} should put pages in. I really would like feedback from the people in this project. While waiting for an answer from you guys I made them categorise into Category:All set index articles, since we could not continue to let them categorise into Category:All disambiguation pages since that screwed up the Wikipedia article count. So please come to Template talk:Dmbox#Category:All disambiguation pages and tell us how you want your templates to categorise.

--David Göthberg (talk) 04:04, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Appropriate article content and Mongolian name

Hello, I'm not really familiar with person names, but I've repeatedly contributed to Mongolian name. I know the references situation of this article is a mess, and if I have time, improve my knowledge of Korean and get access to several foreign libraries, I might someday try to fix this. But I'm here to ask something else: what points should be addressed in an article that deals with the names used in a culture, and what (maybe different) points should be addressed in an article that deals with names in a state? And more specific: in what ways should the content of "Mongolian name" be 1. enlarged and completed and 2. be elaborated upon? Please answer on Talk:Mongolian name! Regards, G Purevdorj (talk) 12:27, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Amariah (given name)

The article Amariah (given name) is introduced with an explanation of the meaning of the name, just as the article Amariah is. It then lists some variants of the name and quotes an external link, whereas the article Amariah lists people in the Bible with the name. The article Amariah (given name) has the categories Category:Hebrew names and Category:Given names whereas the article Amariah has the categories Category:Hebrew Bible people. Would it not be best to merge Amariah (given name) into Amariah? Coyets (talk) 12:40, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Georgina: redirect or disambiguation/name article?

Hello... I'd appreciate it if someone from this project could offer advice as to how to proceed at Georgina. The page is under consideration for a new home for the article currently at Georgina, Ontario. However, it seems to me that the sheer number of articles using the given name "Georgina" (as evidenced at the newly created page Georgina (disambiguation)) and the fact that references to the given name far outweigh references to the city (in both Google hits and Wikipedia pages views) would speak against this. Anyway, the discussion is at Talk:Georgina, Ontario#Move proposal; any advice would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. --Ckatz^chat_spy 00:11, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Rappaport

Folks, would someone take a look at this one please? It seems to be a hybrid name/disambiguation page and should probably be split. Thanks. – ukexpat (talk) 19:30, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Coordinators' working group

Hi! I'd like to draw your attention to the new WikiProject coordinators' working group, an effort to bring both official and unofficial WikiProject coordinators together so that the projects can more easily develop consensus and collaborate. This group has been created after discussion regarding possible changes to the A-Class review system, and that may be one of the first things discussed by interested coordinators.

All designated project coordinators are invited to join this working group. If your project hasn't formally designated any editors as coordinators, but you are someone who regularly deals with coordination tasks in the project, please feel free to join as well. — Delievered by §hepBot (Disable) on behalf of the WikiProject coordinators' working group at 04:46, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Georgina/Georgina, Ontario/Georgina (name)

This seems to involve issues this project is about; the already-lengthy/convoluted discussion is at Talk:Georgina, Ontario#Move proposal.Skookum1 (talk) 17:04, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject Anthroponymy on (surname) pages

Should the template for WikiProject Anthroponymy appear on every Name (surname) page? I arrived here from Jensen (surname) but I see plenty of surname pages without this template, including one new page that I contributed. Dthomsen8 (talk) 18:06, 5 March 2009 (UTC)Dthomsen8

It's funny you should ask that; after adding the template to a new surname page, I wondered if there was a bot that trawled all the pages that end with "(name)" or "(surname)". If this is appropriate, it would help to recruit someone who could create a bot to automatically categorise pages like this.

– Sasuke Sarutobi (talk) 11:39, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I would welcome such a bot, but I have no idea how to write a bot. There must be a way to solicit a bot writer in Wikipedia, though. Dthomsen8 (talk) 17:44, 7 March 2009 (UTC)Dthomsen8

Questions on the project

I have seen at least one surname disambiguation page marked as an Orphan. How would an editor add links to a name or surname page? It seems to me to be a strained objective.

I have created one surname disambiguation page, done alphabetical by first name with a Contents TOC at the top. I have also seen surname pages with sections marked "Authors" or "Politicians" or "Sports" and then names alphabetically by first name. It is easy to name individuals who are all three of the above, perhaps starting out as baseball players, going on to the US Senate, and then writing books on their sports careers or on politics, or both. It seems to me that the alphabetical approach is better if the individuals on the list have a reasonably clear and accurate description.

Also, should I put (b. 1949) or (born 1949) for living persons? I only put the year for deceased persons, even when the article on them gives an exact date. Dthomsen8 (talk) 19:17, 7 March 2009 (UTC)Dthomsen8

Is it appropriate to link from surname instances to surname articles?

I recently created an article on the surname Weeks, only to have it flagged as an orphan. The obvious candidates for internal links to this article are the lead section instances of the surnames of the various articles on people names 'Weeks' (e.g. Edgar Weeks in the Edgar Weeks article. But is this appropriate? - Wormcast (talk) 00:44, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, in the absence of a response here, I decided to go ahead and link a few surnames and see what the response was. Whpq quickly reverted them, citing MOS:LEAD, the relevant part of which states: "Use as few links as possible before and in the bolded title". He has a point, both technically and functionally; the insertion of a link in the bolded title is distracting, and in this case at least, not done for a critically important reason.

So, if appropriate in the first place (your opinions welcome), this leaves the problem of how to link from person articles (articles about specific persons with some name X) to name articles (articles about the name X, itself). I think that this linking is a good idea because it both highlights the existence of the name articles and also provides a metric of sorts for how notable a particular name is. Some options for how to do this include:

• linking to name articles from the first non-lead section instance of the name in corresponding person articles
• placing links to name articles in "See also" sections of corresponding person articles
• placing links to name articles only on corresponding name disambiguation pages and 'people with name X' pages

-- Wormcast (talk) 17:08, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

As a matter of taste I'd always support the last bullet point. I don't think the first one would be very clear or helpful, and I'd only allow the middle one ("See also") in the case of very rare names.

Instead, how about linking to the name articles from the infobox? I've just done this at Phil Chang, which is a worthwhile case in point as his surname is Zhang (surname) rather than Chang (surname), a different Chinese character. - Fayenatic (talk) 19:46, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

That works for me, at least for those person articles that have infoboxes. - Thanks, Wormcast (talk) 01:00, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Bosniak name?

How about moving this into a stand-alone article like Serbian name or Croatian name? --necronudist (talk) 16:24, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

WP:NOT#PLOT

Apologies for the notice, but this is being posted to every WikiProject to avoid accusations of systemic bias. Hiding T 13:24, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

MOS needed for surname pages

I do a lot of cleanup of dab pages, happily citing WP:MOSDAB. As far as I can see, there isn't an equivalent for surname pages. I suggest that there needs to be.

Surname pages which only list people with that name are useful (given the sad absence of a wikipedia-wide index of people on the lines of the BLP index), and are not dab pages, that's established. I came today to Renouf, genuinely looking for Peter le Page Renouf and having only remembered his surname from a text I'd just looked at (DNB entry for a colleague of his who's only a redlink in WP). He wasn't on that page, though I've now added him and the other non-listed person I found by using "Intitle" search. The page at that stage had a piped link, multiple blue links in an entry, was in no obvious order, and included references to substantiate a term, not used in the lead of the relevant article, to describe one of the people listed. I cleaned up the page following MOSDAB style, but quite expect it might be reverted. I moved the names into date of birth order: it seems to me that if someone reaches a surname page looking for a particular individual, they are likely not to know the forename (or they'd have searched for it), so forename A-Z is the least helpful order. Are there any established rules for content, format, order, etc for a list of names in a surname page and, by extension, for a page which is only a list of surnames?

I know that a simple list like this is not a full "surname" page, as it has nothing about the surname as such, but as it isn't a dab page either I suggest that one or the other of the two projects should take on the job of producing an MOS for these pages/sections. I'm happy with the version of the page I've produced, but would like to be able to cite some authority to support this style if there is any opposition!

Oh yes, and how can we stop them getting labelled as "Orphan", as a couple of editors have mentioned above? A dab page ought to be an orphan, and a list-only surname page (or the list part of any surname page) serves a dab-like function (helping readers find articles they want to read; helping editors find articles where they might be about to create a duplicate article with some name variation), so an absence of incoming links is not a problem!

I can see, looking again at the discussions above, that this has been raised a few times before but there still seems to be no solution. The ideal solution would be for a full surname index facility in Wikipedia - there would then be no need for these dab-like lists. For forenames, {{lookfrom}} or prefix search does the trick (in most cases, unless the forename is a commonly used word in other senses such as "Lord"). But access to articles by surname is a useful facility, so "list of people with surname Foo" pages fulfil a useful function. PamD (talk) 10:32, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Merger of Family infobox templates

I propose that Template:Family name should be merged into Template:Infobox Family.

Please discuss this at Template talk:Family name#Proposed merger with Template:Infobox Family rather than here. - Fayenatic (talk) 19:36, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Categorising names by nationality

An editor is currently adding a lot of "Xish surnames" categories to surname articles, and it looks as if s/he is going purely on the nationality of the people bearing the name - thus Abineri gets Category:English surnames. I've just added a comment on the editor's talk page, but someone from this project might like to chime in too. If you agree that it's a problem. PamD (talk) 15:39, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree it's a problem and will support your discussion there. - Fayenatic (talk) 20:48, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Hi, don't know if you folks at this WP here have been made aware before now, but there has been an ongoing CFD debate for the Category:Surnames by country category structure here. I think the activity above relates to it. That CFD discussion is now due for closure so it may be a bit late in the day for much more debate, which has sheared off in several directions so not sure whether the outcome wld be a procedural keep or perhaps upmerge. If one thing seems clear it is that the existing system is unsatisfactory and inconsistently applied to boot. I and some others are proposing a "by language/linguistic origin" subcategorisation instead of "by nationality/ethnicity/citizenship [of individuals with a given surname]" as the cat scheme organises things presently. Whatever the outcome of this particular CFD I'd say there'd need to be considerable work to be done in arranging these cats by a more thoughtful and relevant system—would any of you folks be up for the research & work to rationalise this cat system? Cheers, --cjllw ʘ TALK 01:24, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

• The outcome was deletion, now being reviewed at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2009 June 25#Category:Surnames by country. Category:Surnames by language is now being built as a replacement, which I think is the right outcome, although deleting all the old work was not the most imaginative way to help achieve it. - Fayenatic (talk) 13:11, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm a bit surprised that this issue hasn't made more waves here, but that gives me the opportunity to tell the story as I see it, and to raise the question of what happens next.

Before 24th June 2009 there were many categories with names of the form "Polish surnames" etc. These began to come in for criticism on the grounds that

• the basis of the categories was (allegedly) nation states, and this is wrong in principle
• the actual criteria for category membership were unclear, and in practice varied from one case to another
• very few of the categorisations were supported by WP:RS
• many of the categorisations were incorrect (I later did a semi-scientific survey and estimated 90% correct)

On 6th June this led to a deletion discussion. To take up CJLL Wright's account above, he and some others proposed a "by language/linguistic origin" subcategorisation instead of "by nationality/ethnicity/citizenship [of individuals with a given surname]" as the cat scheme then organised things. I did not take part in this debate because I was unaware that it was going on. If I had taken part, I should have pointed out the necessity of avoiding WP:OR and the desirability of use of WP:RS. As it was, everyone brought their own private knowledge to the debate, sometimes in the most naive terms ("I know someone who has a surname ..." etc.) There was no reference made to the existence of books on surnames, to the terminology they use, or to research in the origins of surnames showing where, when and how they originated. It was therefore often accepted that a phrase like "Polish surnames" did indeed imply "nationality/ethnicity/citizenship", as CJLL Wright says, rather than national and linguistic environment several centuries ago when surnames originated, and since passed down in the male line, which is what books on "Polish surnames" mean by it. In spite of that the argument was quite evenly balanced, but the closing admin, bizarrely in my view, pronounced a consensus for change, and ran a bot which merged all language-based surname categories up in the single category "surnames". This was immediately followed by a deletion review, where the same people made the same arguments, and nothing was changed.

Since then a whole lot of categories of the form "Polish-language surnames" have been created. It should be noted that phrases like "Polish-language surnames" are strange neologisms, which never appear in the literature (as a google search will quickly show). Those editors who are angry with the situation have mostly become demoralised and simply left the scene. With very few exceptions the new categories remain virtually empty. In a few cases they have been refilled by hand (use of a bot being forbidden), but with no attempt to supply the references which were meant to be one of the points of the exercise. One editor has been blocked for a month for that and similar misdeeds.

I have attempted on numerous talk pages to make the point that if proper sourcing is desirable for allocating articles to categories, which is agreed by all in this debate, this cannot be done sensibly unless those same sources are used to decide the suitable names for the categories and to describe the criteria for inclusion in them. I've drawn attention to relevant sources. One in particular, by Hanks and Hodges, has details of 40,000 surnames and would therefore deal with the sourcing problem for virtually all the names of European origin. I'm enthusiastic to work on this, but only within a sane scheme with recognised category names. I'd appreciate the views of members of this project on these matters. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 21:52, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Deletion review for Category:Scottish surnames

I have asked for a second deletion review of Category:Scottish surnames. Members of this project might want to participate. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 18:01, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Orphan tags

There is discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Orphanage#.7B.7Bsurname.7D.7D_pages about {{orphan}} tags being assigned to {{surname}} and {{given name}} pages. PamD (talk) 12:36, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Surname Pages & Orphan Criteria

The orphan criteria has been updated to exclude surname pages (and other set indexes). As most of these pages (example Franklin (surname)) act like disambiguation pages, most of them will not have many direct links so it was felt that there is no need to tag them as orphans. This change was discussed and implemented without objection.

JaGa, who maintains toolserver reports reporting orphan status that are used for tagging and untagging, has been asked to update his orphan reports in accordance with criteria change. He does not want to do that without input from the Disambiguation and Anthroponymy projects. His position appears to be if an article is not an orphan candidate, then it must be a DAB page. As he previously had objections to including surname pages in his DAB reports, he therefore feels he need agreement from other projects.

Everyone else who has commented so far doesn't see it that way. The opinion has been that whether surname pages are or are not DAB pages is irrelevant to whether they are or are not orphan candidates. That surname pages (and other set indexes) can simultaneously be not DAB pages and not orphans. DAB status and orphan status should be treated separately.

To bring this to a resolve, I'm posting this at the Disambiguation, Anthroponymy, and Orphanage projects. To consolidate discussion, I suggest that Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Disambiguation be used for all responses since JaGa's main concern seems to be about DAB classification.

Links to relevant discussions: [3], [4], [5], [6], [7]

If there are any objections, please let's here them. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 14:14, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

The consolidated discussion is at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Orphanage. -- JLaTondre (talk) 16:03, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Jewish surnames category deleted again; see discussion

Please see Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2009_July_6#Category:Jewish_surnames. Badagnani (talk) 22:21, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

FAR Names of the Greeks

I have nominated Names of the Greeks for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 16:46, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Attention for Pietersen

I would like some attention for Pietersen, since the lede says Afrikaans and the infobox says Netherlands. Is this the proper place to ask for such attention? --DThomsen8 (talk) 00:53, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I should say that the featured article on Kevin Pietersen is likely to draw some limited attention to this article. --DThomsen8 (talk) 00:55, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I suppose I could change the article to give both origins for this surname, since no one else has seen fit to comment or make a change in the article. Any comment? --DThomsen8 (talk) 21:14, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Ball - two pages

There's Ball (name) (chronological) and Ball (surname) (A-Z) - someone might like to rationalise! PamD (talk) 08:07, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

dabs and name lists

What should be done with Paul (name)? An editor regularly removes various entries which are disambiguation pages, saying "removed disambiguation page links, please only include notable Pauls". This suggests that no Pauls with ambiguous names are notable. In fact, of course, everyone with a Wikipedia article is "notable" in some sense of the word. By omitting the dab pages, a certain group of Pauls are omitted from the list. Over to you at the project. PamD (talk) 21:43, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Dear PamD - I have not regularly taken this action. I did it once which you reverted as I had not explained it. I did it again with an explanation. This does not as you wrongly state suggest that more than 1 person with the same name are not notable. However, you are wrong that all people with the same name are the same level of notability eg there are over 30 Paul Williams and whilst some may have significant achievements very few would be anything like as notable as say Paul McCartney, Paul Simon or Paul Gauguin. If there is more than 1 person of the same name that is notable they should be listed separately eg the 2 Paul Simons that are listed. Any researcher that just wants a list of Paul articles as you suggest just needs to search on Paul so no point including all Pauls in this 'Notable' section. Regards Pwimageglow (talk) 21:57, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

You removed dabs on 29 May, then on 15 June, then with explanation on 9 July. "Regularly" may have been a slight exaggeration: "once" and "again" is an understatement. Let's settle on "several times", and wait to hear what anyone from this project has to contribute. PamD (talk) 22:19, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Any criteria on which this list of "notable" Pauls is selected appears to be WP:OR. Who says that Paul Gray (civil servant) is less notable than Paul Banke? PamD (talk) 22:25, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Dear PamD, I agree notability is subjective but, again, there is no point including every Paul article on the Notable page. However, no-one for example, would suggest Paul Williams (fictional character in The Young and the Restless) is as notable as say Paul McCartney. Hence by excluding the disambig pages at least there is some comparison contributors can make to other entries when amending the Notable page. Regards Pwimageglow (talk) 19:45, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Why do name pages need to include a list at all? If someone wants a list of articles with "Paul" in the title, they need only search. I recognize that Anthroponymy != Disambiguation, but the list policy for disambiguation pages is clear, and I think it would make sense for this project as well.  ◉ ghoti 20:19, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Ash

• Ash (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
  • Ash (disambiguation)
• Ash (name) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
  • Ash (given name)
  • Ash (surname)

Please rap the knuckles of Knulclunk (talk · contribs), who has merged the names back into the disambiguation page. (I only noticed because s/he munged the templates.) I've fixed it once today, I'm not going to bother again.... Please take care of it, or come up with a new agreement with WikiProject Disambiguation.
--William Allen Simpson (talk) 04:32, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Butt mess

Seems that apart from Butt (a disambiguation page) there are Butt (name) and Butt (Asian surname), articles about two prominent sets of people with that name. But not all the people who have been put into the two lists (arbitrarily?) belong to either. E.g. currently at Butt (name) are Yondani Butt (Chinese), Munir Butt (probably Kashmiri, i.e. other list), Hans-Jörg Butt (German), Sabir Butt (Indian in Kenya?), etc. (Not to mention the closely related and often identically pronounced Bhat names.) What to do? Shreevatsa (talk) 19:35, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps the Butt (name) and Butt (Asian surname) should be merged together, especially since some names seem to be on the wrong page. There is the difficulty that each article has information about the name and about where people of that name are or were to be found. Let's wait and see what others think should be done.--DThomsen8 (talk) 21:11, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok, if no one says anything to the contrary, I'll go ahead and merge them into one new "Butt (name)" article, which is just a list, and keep the two existing articles as "Butt (British surname)" and "Butt (Asian surname)", say (without a list of names, except possibly a handful as examples). Shreevatsa (talk) 02:53, 28 July 2009 (UTC)