Talk:Peranakan Chinese

Date of presenting princess to sultan

Does ‘+/-’ of “+/-1459 AD” in section Language mean “approximately” ? If so, then it is non-standard usage, and also contrary to the wikipedia style guide for dates: see last paragraph of Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)#Years.2C_decades.2C_and_centuries for how to rewrite it.

Kiauseng is not synonymous to Peranakan

As a part of community who speaks Creole Baba-Hokkien who uses the term, I want to emphasise that ‘Kiauseng’ is not synonymous to ‘Peranakan’. It is an ‘exonym’ labelled for people outside the Baba-Hokkien speaking community in Eastern coasts Sumatra. Kiau (Qiao/侨) + seng (shen/生) refers to Hokkiau + Folks. The term Kiauseng is not used by Penang Peranakans who refer themselves as Huan-Peng Lang. The term is used in Medan, North Sumatra, to refer to foreign Non-Mainland Chinese who did not assimilate to Hokkien Peranakan Patois spoken by the old communities in Northern Malaya and Sumatra. Most of Medanese elders would agree that Kiauseng is not the same as Peranakan or Babanyonya, as Medanese has its own babanyonya communities in the past. A lot of ‘Hokkienised’ term such as Hokkiau and Tionghoa are not used and were not use colloquially by Hokkien speaking communities. Most of people often labelled as Kiauseng are people of usually 3rd-4th generation who do not even exhibit old creolised Hokkien-Malay culture, but instead displaying Orde Baru forced-assimilation identity. Most kiauseng people do not speak creolised patois, but only borrowed Hokkien lingo from Batavian, Sundanese and Javanese peranakans. In short Kiauseng are fully assimilated Chinese in Nusantara. You will tend to find old Peranakan communities in Java to be more Chinese than Kiauseng-s. Thus in the spirit of multiculturalism vs assimilation, I do not think that Kiauseng-s are Peranakan. They don’t speak a uniquely Peranakan/Creole Patois and they don’t display uniquely Peranakan/Creole culture or behaviour. 120.21.9.146 (talk) 10:13, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Peranakan

Peranakan term actually it originally from Malacca means "Kacukan/Mix" in between bloods or culture , Why the tittle put Peranakan? Peranakan and Chinese Peranakan (Baba&Nyonya) are two different things ! Example : Peranakan 1.Baba&Nyonya 2.Chetty 3.Kristang

4.Eurasia 5.Samsam 6.Jawi peranakan/Mamak

Peranakan origin from Malacca and has two major spread to Penang and Singapore . 1. Penang > Southern Thailand > Bangkok

2. Singapore > Riau Islands > Java Islands 2402:1980:2A3:FD3D:0:0:0:1 (talk) 00:21, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Peranakan not only chinese

Kindly refer the term of Peranakan in Dewan Bahasa and Pustaka.

It come from malay word and not only consits of chinese ancestry but it is wide term

Definition: 1. descendants of a country's child and a foreigner:; 2. born in: young people ~ Melaka; 3. uterus (where the baby is in the stomach), womb: pain

Do refer to https://prpm.dbp.gov.my/Cari1?keyword=peranakan — Preceding unsigned comment added by Visnu92 (talk • contribs) 03:23, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Proposed trim

User:Visnu92, User:Bennv123, User:Shirt58, opening this discussion regarding the proposed trim. I think it would be best if those in favor of the trim would explain their concerns with the current sourcing. Please feel free to ping anyone I may have missed who has been involved in this dispute. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:4D61:46E2:1501:4B6F (talk) 03:47, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps Megat Lanang, who was recently blocked for 48 hours for similar edits, should be pinged too. Bennv123 (talk) 03:51, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Edit request

Two changes should be made:

1. The hatnote is nonsensical - "This article is about This article is about Peranakan,a term used to describe descendants of a country child and a foreigner." makes no sense. It should be "This article is about Peranakan, a term used to describe descendants of a country child and a foreigner."
2. The short description starts with a lowercase character, which is against the short description guidelines. It should start with a capital letter. Suntooooth, it/he (talk/contribs) 16:35, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

 Done * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 18:58, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

"descendants of a country child" sounds a bit weird, don't you think so?

Also, the intro paragraph doesn't say anything about Chinese Peranakans at all. This happened after Megat Lanang and Visnu did whatever they did. FikkuFiq 16:47, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Since I don't know anything about the topic, my edit request was mostly focused on obvious style errors - this article does seem very messy though. Suntooooth, it/he (talk/contribs) 17:03, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Should we transfer the 'lost' information into another article?

Since the edit war, about 100,000 bytes of contents — which is largely about Chinese Peranakan people — is gone from this article. Should we create a new page for Chinese Peranakans and put the now missing information there and retain this original one as the page for various Peranakan people and link it? FikkuFiq 16:43, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

User:Fikku fiq, that would be a cut and paste move which is not allowed. The correct way to go about that would be to restore the article, which is what will happen if there is no consensus for the trim above anyway, and start an WP:RM. There is still a problem in that multiple cut & past moves have been attempted to different titles so any proposal may fail, not because people do not wish the page moved, but because the specific proposal does not get a majority resulting in a second or even third RM as individual proposals do not find consensus, I will inquire about procedure to see if open-ended RMs are allowed which may be a better way forward. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:4183:4CE1:8C4D:3DA9 (talk) 17:50, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I am unsure if the two different disputes have been related. At any rate, this is the pre edit-war article. The argument seems to be that the title does not apply, in which case the solution is an WP:RM, not an almost-blanking. CMD (talk) 01:39, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I think they are of a similar nature, which is about the term "Peranakan". The pre-edit article on the whole referred to Chinese Peranakan/Baba Nyonya people, so when it comes to the title, Megat Lanang and Visnu's POV was, I think, correct, but like what you said, it should just have been a page move (from Peranakan to Chinese Peranakan) rather than a major blanking.

It is also not helped by the fact that based on what I know about Visnu, he does have a certain biased view, and I can't help to wonder if what he did was also motivated by that (even if he was somewhat correct when it comes to the title). FikkuFiq 08:04, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Well, there are different weights to usage. Many people do just use "Peranakan" when referring to Chinese Peranakans, especially in English. The only source cited so far for the change is a Malay dictionary entry. Either way, this should be dealt with at an RM, and if there is a general page that is anything more than a disambiguation there should be sources specifically for that generic term. CMD (talk) 08:18, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that's true. The Baba Nyonya Museum in Malacca also refers to the Chinese Peranakans. And a source that I read from Singapore also largely gears towards the Chinese-based community although it does state that not all Peranakans are Chinese. I guess now we can go both ways, although since this is the English Wikipedia and noting the general and international view of who the Peranakans are, the pre-edit article would not be out of place. Maybe we should have a page to list down the various kinds of Peranakans and leave this to refer to the Chinese Peranakans. FikkuFiq 08:30, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

We would need to create those other articles before we could create a list or SIA. Another option might be just to broaden the focus of the existing content, though that might make it too bloated. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:811B:92A6:AA8C:E001 (talk) 15:40, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

In my opinion, the previous edits in this current Peranakan article should be restored and the title of the article changed to "Straits-born Chinese" (which I feel is much accurate, as how the older generation of English-speaking Peranakans would say it) or "Chinese Peranakan". This is because there were older edits that are tied to other earlier discussions in this article's Talk page. Then a new Peranakan article should be created to accommodate the general Peranakan subject as can be seen now. Although the term Peranakan generally refers to Peranakan of Chinese heritage, I suspect it is partly due to a larger population/presence in comparison to the other strains of Peranakans. But as of this moment, I think this is the appropriate solution. -Jeblat (talk) 18:14, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

The other articles are already available so I don't think there's a problem in that. To put all in one article would indeed make it too bloated.

I do agree with Jeblat that we should return to the pre-edit war article, move it, and then create a new article as a general list (which is somewhat what the article is currently is). FikkuFiq 23:49, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

We would first need sources about the general use to create a new page, but pinging Ymblanter on consensus that the raised dispute about the pre-edit war version should be resolved with an RM rather than with blanking as happened. CMD (talk) 01:24, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Protection is only for one more day. No one in favor of the trim has commented on the talk page yet, and while we have to set some deadline so discussions do not sit interminably, there may yet be someone who wants the trim who has not yet had an opportunity to comment. True Vishnu92 was the only editor to trim the page, but allowing another 24 hours for an opportunity to weigh in seems reasonable, after all some people are busy IRL. A full seven days seems like a fair compromise between the need to resolve things eventually, and the need to give everyone an opportunity to participate. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:2997:D11A:B16B:FCC0 (talk) 02:35, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion doesn't stop by going back to the status quo ante, especially when that reversion to the stable version is mentioned alongside opening a new discussion. Nothing is being compromised in any direction. CMD (talk) 02:54, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:2997:D11A:B16B:FCC0 (talk) 02:55, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Pinging @Chipmunkdavis: & @Fikku fiq:, it appears Visnu92 is back at it again, blanking content from the article. Further intervention is needed to put a stop to this behaviour. hundenvonPG (talk) 09:07, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Update: I've opened a new case on WP:ANI regarding the persistent content blanking by said user. hundenvonPG (talk) 09:32, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes. He needs to be stopped. He doesn't act in a suitable way. I hope actions will be taken. FikkuFiq 14:40, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I've restored the page per above to restore the content that disappeared through the various WP:CUTPASTE moves. A shift should be handled through an WP:RM to determine if it is appropriate. CMD (talk) 01:45, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 6 January 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: move to Peranakan Chinese. (closed by non-admin page mover) feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 15:09, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

---

Peranakans → ? – Multiple possible titles have been suggested both directly in discussion and indirectly through attempted c&p moves. Should we move this page? If so where? 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:BDC2:D617:CAB6:BBF1 (talk) 04:06, 6 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 04:40, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended explanation

I'm probably missing a few, but at the very least Chinese Peranakan, Baba dan Nyonya, Straits-born Chinese, and Baba-Nyonya have all been suggested as possibilities. I'm trying to keep this open-ended so feel free to suggest additional alternatives in the survey.

To summarize as best I can, while Peranakan was originally restricted to the descendants of Chinese immigrants, it is no longer used exclusively for them but for descendants of other immigrant populations as well. The article as currently structured still focuses primarily on the more limited group. So we are trying to figure out how to deal with this.

One possible resolution that has come up repeatedly is moving the page to a more restrictive title such as the ones listed above.

This is not an attempt to foreclose on other possible resolutions that have come up such as expanding the current article to avoid issues with undue weight instead. I just wanted to get the ball rolling on discussion and try to solicit more outside input from the community. I'm happy to hear out everyone's thoughts on this and welcome alternative suggestions both for potential move destinations and alternative resolutions that do not require a move. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:BDC2:D617:CAB6:BBF1 (talk) 04:06, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Survey

Note: WikiProject Singapore has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 12:59, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Indonesia has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 12:59, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Malaysia has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 13:00, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Ethnic groups has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 13:00, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

• Comment I do not yet really have any strong preference as nom, just trying to get discussion started. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:BDC2:D617:CAB6:BBF1 (talk) 04:06, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  Of the move options that have been presented so far Chinese Peranakan and Peranakan Chinese appear to be the most suitable. I am not entirely sure between the two, the former is more natural but the latter looks like it is more common. There are not yet many hard numbers to judge if this is or is not the PRIMARYTOPIC, however one way to get a better idea would be to convert the redirect to a disambiguation or similar following a move and see what people are navigating to. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:A5EF:77D4:910:538E (talk) 06:29, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

• Looking through the first few pages of google hits for "Peranakan", there is a mix of using "Peranakan" alone and "Peranakan Chinese" to refer to this article topic. That said, there is also a not infrequent note of the different usages, and some sources which discuss Peranakan in the general sense. For example, NLB Singapore states "...the term “Peranakan” generally refers to a person of mixed Chinese and Malay/Indonesian heritage" and discussing Straits Chinese specifically, before later noting "Not all Peranakans are of Chinese ancestry" and mentioning smaller groups. Britannica has a broad framing in the introduction, then focuses down saying "The Peranakan Chinese, however, form the largest and the most important group, and for this reason many scholars use Peranakan to refer specifically to the Chinese group". The Singapore Peranakan museum starts broad, and has a few more examples from the Peranakan Chinese than from others. The Malacca Baba Nyonya museum uses the term to mean Peranakan Chinese, but also notes the broader usage. The Penang Peranakan page uses Peranakan and Peranakan Chinese interchangeably. A look at google scholar and books seems to be mostly for Peranakan Chinese, although some clarify the broader meaning of the term. Our article does what all these sources seem to do, mention the broad meaning and then focus on the Peranakan Chinese. That said, we have more space to create different articles, so there is a WP:NOPAGE question around the separate notability of the broader term, and then if there was a split what the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC would be. CMD (talk) 06:31, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  @Chipmunkdavis, maybe a WP:BROADCONCEPT or WP:SETINDEX page at Peranakan. We already have pages on Chitty, Kristang people, Jawi Peranakan, etc. Oddly, {{Ethnic_groups_in_Malaysia}} has a well-defined groupset on Peranakans. – robertsky (talk) 15:29, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

  That sort of list is probably the best way to go if this page is moved, noting the dominance of the Peranakan Chinese within that. I can imagine it's possible for there to be an article, but no-one has presented sufficient sources here yet. CMD (talk) 01:23, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

• Comment This may be out of my depth but it does appear that, going by the edit wars, a potential issue could be to ensure WP:NPOV, as Peranakans are not just exclusive to Singapore, Malaysia or Indonesia alone.

For example, while Peranakans are largely used to refer to individuals descended from intermarriages between Chinese and local Malays, according to this paper here (from a source far removed from the region), the term Peranakan could refer to any individual born to a Malay and a non-Malay parent, taking note that in the Dutch East Indies, any descendents of Europeans and indigenous Southeast Asians were also identified as Peranakans.

There should be more input and WP:CONS between editors from the three countries and avoid angling the article from the perspective of just one nationality. hundenvonPG (talk) 08:04, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

• CommentDewan Bahasa and Pustaka, is the government body responsible for coordinating the use of the Malay language in Malaysia. In Dewan Bahasa and Pustaka dictionary Cleary state that [pe.ra.na.kan]/[pe.ra.na/.kan]/ | ڤرانقن is descendants of natives and foreigners. The foreigners here is not only specific to chinese, but also others like Indians, Arab and Portugese. The word is Malay word which also can be translate as Womb. Source : https://prpm.dbp.gov.my/Cari1?keyword=peranakan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Visnu92 (talk • contribs) 07:44, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

CommentDewan Bahasa and Pustaka, is the government body responsible for coordinating the use of the Malay language in Malaysia. In Dewan Bahasa and Pustaka dictionary Cleary state that [pe.ra.na.kan]/[pe.ra.na/.kan]/ | ڤرانقن is descendants of natives and foreigners. The foreigners here is not only specific to chinese, but also others like Indians, Arab and Portugese. The word is Malay word which also can be translate as Womb. Source : https://prpm.dbp.gov.my/Cari1?keyword=peranakan. Visnu92 (talk) 07:45, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, what?

• What does womb have to do with Peranakans?
• So Dewan Bahasa and Pustaka's definition is now authoritative in Singapore? Indonesia? Imposing non-NPOV? hundenvonPG (talk) 08:59, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Peranakan is Malay word. Peranakan also means womb. Visnu92 (talk) 09:57, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

The definition by DBP alone cannot be the reason why you decided to change the entire article. There are nuances to be discussed about. This is a Southeast Asia-wide topic and it needs to be handled in a civilised manner, which you, User:Visnu92, as always, have been not accustomed to. We are discussing the best course for this article's future and your action is selfish and unbecoming.

Rather than doing a major blanking alone, it would have been much better if you decide to share your views and a Move could be made. FikkuFiq 14:39, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Noted. Peranakana also bring the same meaning in Singapore. The article is prejudice. I still stand on the point that the article should be moved to Chinese Peranakan. Visnu92 (talk) 04:59, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

@Visnu92 Which is why all of us are discussing about it, and in fact, based on my observation, many others have been positive towards your idea in order to make it clearer and fair towards other Peranakans.

The main reason why people are annoyed with you is that you didn't try to talk about this matter first and chose to remove almost the entirety of the contents about a type of Peranakan people, thus basically removing a lot of valid/acceptable information about that particular Peranakan people, in this case, Baba and Nyonya/Straits Chinese. What you replaced it with, which was basically a list of the different types of Peranakans, has/had errors in grammar and other aspects.

If you had chosen to use the talk page to share your concerns, the editors and admins wouldn't have done this.

There are differences in making smaller edits, adding information to an article, and doing what you did. FikkuFiq 08:19, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Noted. Visnu92 (talk) 14:07, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

• Comment Peranakan in Indonesian and Malay means the uterus or womb, or someone from a mixed marriage between a local and a foreigner. Not all Peranakans are of Chinese ancestry. Other Peranakans include the Bugis Peranakans, Arab Peranakans and Java Peranakans. Source :https://catalogue.nlb.gov.sg/search/card?recordId=13562398 (Singapore National Library Board) . P — Preceding unsigned comment added by Visnu92 (talk • contribs) 10:01, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support I would support a move based on the other discussions we have so far.--FikkuFiq 15:52, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

• If we are to go strictly on WP:UE, "Straits-born Chinese" would be the article title as "Peranakan" and "Baba-Nonya" are rooted in Malay/other languages. However all these terms are in English dictionary/dictionaries currently. If we go by WP:COMMONNAME in English sources for Singapore, from my quick searches, the usages from most common to least are "Peranakan", "Peranakan Chinese", "Baba-Nonya" (and variations, but usually referring to the cuisine more often than not), and then "Straits-born Chinese". Since Peranakan is/can also be a generic term, I don't think it should stay at this title. Instead a more general/globalised version should be written for it instead. I would support a move to "Peranakan Chinese" rather than "Baba-Nonya" for a preference of referring to the ethnic group by a defining, yet neutral feature. At least more neutral than referring to the group by essentially the genders. (Sorry in advance if a debate on race and gender starts due to the preceding comment.) – robertsky (talk) 08:58, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support: In my opinion, Baba dan Nyonya seems to be an odd option to be used in the English Wiki as the word dan in "Baba dan Nyonya" is a Malay word which simply means "and" in English- unless we're discussing about a Bahasa Malaysia Wiki. While the word Baba-Nyonya literally means/refers to the male and female Peranakan (which is actually more of a local colloquial term) instead of the people group collectively. So the only options left are Straits-born Chinese and Chinese Peranakan. Straits-born Chinese is the term used among English speaking/educated Peranakans of the older generation since the days of the British; a term of which I'm in favour. I suspect this term came about due to the prominent presence of the people in the Straits Settlements. But the term Chinese Peranakan is also very well understood in the Malaysian context and can be used interchangeably. However, do the Indonesians refer the Chinese Peranakans as "Straits-born Chinese" also? I think this is not the case, and perhaps even alien to them. So based on the content of the original Peranakan article, I think it's best to proceed with Chinese Peranakan or Peranakan Chinese. (In Malay/Indonesian, it is Peranakan Cina / Peranakan Tionghoa. So in English it should be Chinese Peranakan) -Jeblat (talk) 16:03, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Comment: Should it be Peranakan Chinese or Chinese Peranakans? Logically speaking, if it is Peranakan Cina/Peranakan Tionghoa in Malay/Indonesian, shouldn't it then be Chinese Peranakans in English? -Jeblat (talk) 13:43, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

It should be Chinese Peranakans in English, but many news portals, websites and other sources on the internet (that I can access for now), use Peranakan Chinese. FikkuFiq 14:47, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Going by ngram ([1]), and Google Scholar searches ("peranakan chinese ~3,120 results vs "chinese peranakan" 1,190 results), "Perankan Chinese" seems to be the more common term. – robertsky (talk) 02:16, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.