Talk:Peranakan Chinese/Archive 1

earlier comment

(I deleted the tag about Feature Article Candidacy on July 11, 2006) Clayoquot 06:07, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Disputable Text

The last paragraph in this article contains a disputable sentence: "In Singapore, the Peranakans are classified as ethnically Chinese by government policies, and because second language instruction (so-called "Mother Tongue") is decided based on ethnicity, this requires them to learn Mandarin Chinese instead of Malay in formal education."

There's a NPOV problem with this article, based on my attempts to verify this statement. While I am not Singaporean, my spouse is, my in-laws live there, I visit there frequently, so I have plenty of opportunities to ask questions. They tell me they know Chinese students who learn Malay, or Malay and Indian who learn Chinese as a 2nd language. Based on this admittedly empirical evidence, I doubt the Singapore government mandates a specific 2nd language based on bureaucratically perceived ethnicity. Can someone cite a regulation verifying the disputed statement as fact? Amatulic 00:07, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[Don't forget your race in Singapore is defined by the race of your father. So if a Malay man marries a Chinese woman, their children will be Malay. But if the father's sister marries the wife's brother, the cousins will be considered Chinese. ]

Clarification: Singapore does have a "Mother Tongue" program in which one must learn a 2nd language; however the language evidently isn't restricted by government-assigned ethnicity. Parents have a choice of what 2nd language their children will take as a "Mother Tongue." The choices are limited, however; primarily Mandarin, Malay, and Tamil, and perhaps some others. Therefore, The sentence quoted above appears incorrect. Peranakans aren't required to learn Mandarain Chinese. They can if they want to. The point is, even if they learned Malay, it's still not not Baba Malay, so the Baba Malay disappears due to unavailability and not some racial/political/economic conspiracy. I suspect that, because a Peranakan child already speaks Malay and will be speaking English in school, a parent would logically and voluntarily enroll their child in Mandarin classes to enhance the child's skills and opportunities later in life. Amatulic 04:22, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Unless the language policy changed very recently, I believe the current version of the article is correct. Singaporean birth certificates have a "race" category, with a child's racial category inherited from the father. Children of Peranakan males are thus officially classified as ethnically Chinese, and are required to learn their "mother tongue" in school. The official Mother Tongue policy designates mother tongue based on race, not on what language is actually spoken in the home. Students may elect to take Malay or Tamil as a second language, but they are required to study Mandarin.

It is quite likely also the case that some Peranakan parents want to have their children learn Mandarin.

I'll try to find some primary sources for the Mother Tongue policy, but in the meantime some secondary and tertiary sources are here: [1] [2] [3] [4]. You're right that this kind of statement does need citations. Clayoquot 06:04, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Featured Article Status

This article should be removed as a "featured article" candidate until the following NPOV problems are addressed in the last paragraph:

• The statement "The disappearance of Peranakan culture is largely due to racial politics and economics brought about by nationalism in Singapore and Malaysia" -- sounds like an opinion. If culture and langauge are closely linked, and the language is disappearing because it isn't taught in schools, then it's logical that the culture will disappear also. The unavailability of Baba Malay language lessons hardly qualifies as "racial politics and economics brought about by nationalism." I see no citation to support this claim.
• Implying that Peranakans would prefer not to assimilate: "Peranakans feel pressured to assimilate back into the mainstream Chinese culture in both countries." Where did this factoid come from?
• The phrase "second language instruction (so-called 'Mother Tongue') is decided based on ethnicity" is false. Cite a government regulation.
• The phrase "requires them to learn Mandarin Chinese instead of Malay in formal education" is false, or requires a citation. It seems more likely that the parents are voluntarily having their children learn Chinese.

Amatulic 04:22, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the "Featured Article candidate" tag from this page. It not currently a candidate and I can't even find any record of it in Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Archived_nominations from February 2006. Clayoquot 05:37, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree citations need to be provided for these statements, even though this article is currently in no danger of gaining featured article status. I don't think that the third and fourth bullet points are false - see my comment above. Clayoquot 06:25, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

You're correct, my 3rd and 4th bullets above are wrong. I have since found a couple of articles about Singapore's Mother Tongue Policy, and I now agree that Peranakans are classified as ethnic Chinese and are required to learn Mandarin. I have also added an external link to the Mother Tongue policy at the bottom of the article.

Nevertheless, that last paragraph in the article sounds like a conspiracy theory, and the phrasing seems layered with emotion. I propose the following as a more NPOV replacement for the last paragraph:

Peranakan culture is disappearing. Without colonial British support for their perceived racial neutrality, government policies in both countries following independence from the British have resulted in the assimilation of Peranakans back into the mainstream Chinese culture. In Singapore, the Peranakans are classified as ethnically Chinese, so they receive formal instruction in Mandarin Chinese as a second language (in accordance with the "Mother Tongue Policy") instead of Malay. In Malaysia, the standardization of Malay as Bahasa Melayu - required for all ethnic groups - has led to a disappearance of the unique characteristics of Baba Malay.

Amatulic 17:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Sounds great to me. Go for it :) Clayoquot 17:30, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Done! Amatulic 20:45, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Was Hang Li Poh was a real princess?

was Hang Li Poh really a daughter of the Chinese emperor, or was she just a daughter of an influential Chinese merchant as some claimed?

there is absolutely no Ming dynasty records of the bethrohal of a chinese princess to a malay sultan.

would the chinese emperor actually present his daughter to the head of a tiny protecteorate of his?

There are no evidence to support that Hang Li Poh is a real Ming dynasty princess. One theory that I came across that there is a possibility that Hang Li Poh may be one of the Ming emperor's female servant. --Jeblat (talk) 06:17, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

This is a racistic article written by Singaporean Chinese chauvinists

It completely ignores the fact that the Peranakan are of mixed ancestry: part Chinese, part Malay and part descended from the (non-Malay) original inhabitants of Singapore Island. In other words, they are not Chinese who betrayed their Chinese heritage, or any rubbish like that. See, for example, http://www.colorq.org/MeltingPot/Asia/Peranakan.htm.

A revision is very much in order.

Ojevindlang 21:53, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Pernakan

This is a term coined by the Chinese themselves. It has no connotation in modern or archiac Indonesian or Javanese as being anything other than "descendent". The term can be used for any kind of decedent- for example peranakan Belanda, peranakan Madura. Secondly, "baba" is not Melayu or Indonesian, it is Arabic- fromthe most vulgar level of market speech. The Indonesian and Malaysian term is asli. I shall amend the article to reflect these linguistic accuracies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Starstylers (talk • contribs) 14:06, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

=Reasons for Reversion to My edit

I argue the User:Starstylers) edit is the superior of the two versions. It was reverted by User:Kulikah who cited a form of Ad_hominen argument referring to past infractions which have no history of repetition. I argue the original article was not nuetral as per WP:NPOV and WP:NEU. The original article was also WP:V, WP:VERIFY/WP:SOURCE. Thus the original unreferenced version could be argued as WP:OR, WP:NOR. It had NO references from any text and relied on website references. Thus it did not adhere to WP:RS, WP:RELY, WP:RELIABLE. I am more than pleased to resolve any contentious issues via mutual discussion, and consensus in the spirit of WP:CON, WP:CONS. I think we all can work together to write a noteworthy article, that perhaps feature one day. PS- I was not the one who wrote about Racialism- that was another user- you can see above- it was just my sloppy wiki syntax Starstylers (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:53, 15 April 2009 (UTC).

Peranakan ancestry

On one hand, it says Peranakan order bride from China but at the same time, it is also said Peranankan have Malay blood in them since they marry local native women in Malaysia. This is contradicting. So does Peranakan mostly have more Chinese blood or Malay blood? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ShanghaiWu (talk • contribs) 08:51, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

The peranakan people is the result of mix-marriages between the Chinese people and (more accurately) Austronesian peoples of the Malay archipelago. The subsequent generation would normally marry another peranakan; a tradition strongly held especially during colonial time period and to a certain extend until the 1970s. It is also common for wealthy peranakans at that time to marry their own relatives in order to prevent their wealth from passing to "outsiders". Cases of peranakans marrying or so-called "ordering" (which I cannot confirm if such "transaction" did took place among the peranakans and if it did, it is not common) brides from China would most likely occur when the peranakan family have relatives in China and still maintain a close relationship with them. --Jeblat (talk) 12:17, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

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