Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indonesia

New update on Pemboewan

Guys, I found some recent updates regarding this article (although it is still primary source).

• Samuda (or Semoeda) Allegedly was once the capital of Pemboewan during the reign of Djaja Ngagara. however, the government only runs for One Month.
• Ujung Pandaran is suspected to have been part of Pemboewan during Raden Moeda's government. The separation of Pandaran from Pemboewan and its integration into the Kewedanan Sampit is still being debated.
• There is a piece of land in the northern part of Seruyan (now part of Melaw Regency, West Kalimantan Province) which is suspected to have been part of Pemboewan at the beginning of the tenure of Kjai Ngabei Djaja-negara.

I have updated the regional map file, and this time the map is my own creation. ~Thank You ^꧋ꦩꦣꦪ Fazoffic ( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ) 22:23, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

@Fazoffic: Probably you can imagine how eager we are to see the citation of the primary source you mention, especially if we really are supposed to give you any response here. Thank you. –Austronesier (talk) 09:02, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

. Otherwise, my primary source says that Pemboewan was a district in what is today Merauke. Juxlos (talk) 13:16, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Maybe you're starting to think weird about this. well, at least I gave an update. It's up to you how you want to respond. ~Thank you ^꧋ꦩꦣꦪ Fazoffic ( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ) 14:01, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Haha, I can't believe time has gone by so fast, and this discussion reminds me of how novice I used to be. ▪︎ Fazoffic _{( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ)} 09:50, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Censorship in Indonesia

Hello folks, I created Censorship in Indonesia today for the Wikipedia Asian Month drive. So far I came up with a pretty basic outline using sources from JSTOR and some other databases but there's plenty of room for me to expand it later. Would be happy if someone can take a look at it for copy editing and to add the Indonesian terms in parentheses where appropriate if there's anything obvious you recognize. My plan for the next time I sit down with it is to find more Indonesian sources for better contextualization of some of the events only mentioned in passing in the outline. Dan Carkner (talk) 02:43, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

@Dan Carkner I think the article should mention Pornography Law (Indonesia) and Internet censorship in Indonesia. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 06:40, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. When I have time to sit down and edit it thoroughly I will make sure to incorporate those topics more. --Dan Carkner (talk) 15:24, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

I have not got around to updating it yet but now I see the new Criminal Code also has elements of censorship in it which should be added to the article. If anyone is knowledgeable about it please have a go, otherwise I will try my best to research and write it up in the next while. --Dan Carkner (talk) 17:29, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Indonesian villages

There are a set of new village stubs in the new articles batch of recent:

Kendaldoyong, Petarukan, Pemalang

Kendalrejo, Petarukan, Pemalang

Kendalsari, Petarukan, Pemalang

Klareyan, Petarukan, Pemalang

Loning, Petarukan, Pemalang

Nyamplung Sari, Petarukan, Pemalang

Panjunan, Petarukan, Pemalang

Payung, South Bangka

Pegundan, Petarukan, Pemalang

In this project we have had earlier discussions as to the threshold of notability or credible scope of having all of Indonesian villages in the project.

As we do not have a dedicated admin in this project - we may well have a problem if we have any answering back against the argument that wikipedia and this project might not just be able to contain a stub about every village.... Anyone who can find the diffs of previous discussions are encouraged to resurrect them please. JarrahTree 11:43, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

There was some previous discussion back in 2019. I would highlight that WP:GEOLAND presumes notability of villages that have legal recognition. Rather than preventing the creation of such stubs, I would encourage a more structural approach in thinking how we can get a list or some template box to make navigation easier to maintain those stubs. —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 15:41, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Per Arsonal and myself in 2019, WP:GEOLAND applies, these villages are notable by consensus. I also would note that these "every villages" are probably more populated than any random town in the US Midwest or in Australia anywhere really – quality issues aside, I do not see any reason against their creation. Juxlos (talk) 17:02, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Oops, thanks for that, much appreciated - I realise I was remembering the conversations before that - where the earlier stage of wikipedia the geoland principle was not endorsed as it stands now.

The principle changes and evolves over time, for instance the individual railway station inherent notability has only recently been over-turned.

JarrahTree 22:50, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Photo montage in infobox for Jakarta

User:Ckfasdf removed the photo montage in the infobox of Jakarta which was added by an IP user. Ckfasdf cited this discussion for the removal, where it was agreed that Indonesian provinces should not have pictures in their infoboxes. However, in that discussion User:Juxlos said that Jakarta may be an exception as it is more of a city. Other articles for important cities with special province/state-like status, such as Kuala Lumpur (a Federal Territory), Metro Manila (a region), and Washington, D.C. (a federal district) have pictures in their infoboxes. Should Jakarta have pictures in its infobox? I think this should be an exception, as Jakarta is a city with province-level government, the administrative cities and regency in it are administered by appointed, instead of elected, mayors and regents, and the governor's office is the Jakarta City Hall. This exception should not apply to other Indonesian provinces. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 06:05, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

@Hanif Al Husaini: lets continue the discussion on Talk:Jakarta#Why photo montage and the flag is removed ?. Ckfasdf (talk) 08:24, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

@Hanif Al Husaini: this problem has been discussed in Talk:Jakarta montage photos can be displayed, but not with the flag Baqotun0023 (talk) 10:22, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Why regional flag in Provincial infobox was removed?

I've looked at the consensus archives before, saying that regional flags don't have legal status, but in fact, Indonesia provincial flag have legal status. You can look at "PERATURAN PEMERINTAH REPUBLIK INDONESIA NOMOR 77 TAHUN 2007"

Article 2, Regional _{(Province, City, Regency)} identity includes: (a) seal; (b) flag; (c) the flag of the regional head; and (d) hymn.

Article 4 Section 1, The regional flag design is rectangular in shape with a ratio of 3:2 which contains the regional seal.

Article 10 Section 1-4, (1) Regional flags may be used as a companion to the state flag on official regional government buildings, gates, inter-provincial, regency and city borders, as well as badges or pictures and/or clothing accessories. (2) The regional flag used as a companion to the state flag, must not be the same size or larger than the state flag. (3) Regional flags can be used and placed in official regional head meetings with foreign partners/agencies/institutions. (4) The use and placement of regional flags in official meetings as referred to in paragraph (3) is carried out as a companion to the state flag.

Han4299 (talk) 07:23, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

@Han4299: PP No 77 Tahun 2007 serve as Guideline for regional flag as specified on article 4 section 1 (quoted above), it didn't explicitly specify regional flag for xxx region. For example on Jakarta case, refer to PP No 7 tahun 2007, we know it's regional flag will contains Jakarta seal. However, there is no regulation that specify the background color used. And all other provinces also have the same issue. Hence, it's failing on WP:V. For other example, let's look at flag of Central Java, on Commons it was yellow background, but on this picture along with other regional flags, it uses white background.

For your reference, if we look up Perda Kabupaten Banjarnegara No 1 tahun 2022 the article 6 and annex II clearly specify the background color for regional flag of Banjarnegara regency. So this is conform with WP:V.

Aside from WP:V issue, I agree with Austronesier comment on previous "discussion regional flag technically is just a piece of cloth that allows to hiss the coat-of-arms on a flagpost". I don't think we will be missing much if we left out the regional flag on the infobox. Afterall, in Indonesia, regional flag is just regional logo placed on rectangular piece of cloth. Ckfasdf (talk) 08:19, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for being late to the discussion (I forgot about this topic), I was told to be redirected here so here I am. I will just re-said what I already said. TL:DR they should be reinstated (personally disappointed to hear that the consensus was already made rather quickly), as they are official but I agree a reference should be added when available but not always. as for the photo montages I think they are fine as long as its not too large, I have seen some that have up to 12 pictures iirc (too much imho) 6 or 8 pictures would suffice. Here is what I said before:

Can't help but notices all the flags from the Provinces wikipage (and more) have been removed, while I agree some Wikipage have too much images but I have to disagree on the removal of flags as they do have Legal basis (as mentioned above) and they do exist on Government operated sites if you are willing to look for specific news/stories article. Provincial/Regional flags are placed next to the National flag often seen in Governor's Office/room (here), and respective regional Government building's courtyard (here), they are also sometimes placed on meeting halls (here), visitation/guest room (here), entrances, Town Hall (here), and even conference rooms (here). Additionally as mentioned before no one have good citations for what the Flag of DKI Jakarta's background is and even found some inconsistencies, I would personally use whatever colour is flown/used by the officials (White) in said Official rooms, etc. and ignore the other one (Black) for after a quick google search the source came from a seller in an E-Commerce website online, hardly official. For those reasons I think the Flags should be reinstated. On a similar subject the logo/symbol/CoA seems supposed to have a green coloured Stem for the bottom left one as seen on the images I mentioned.

FYI Provincial flags are more like state flags in the US imho and they have it on their infobox, after all as some have said before Indonesia is a unitary state with federal-like components ever since the reform era started. Provincial flags are also placed on the left side of the podium/stage or right side from the audience POV. Did some little checking and other countries have provincial flags on their wikipages too, or in Prefectures for Japan's case for which I see no reason why we shouldn't as well, as it is informative as it is harmless. And as for Flags are just CoA with a rectangle cloth with coloured background... well pretty much sums up most of the world's State/Provincial/City flags. Or if its too cluttered I disagree as a flag would only take one space and that space is already made available right next to the CoA meaning it will not make the Infobox any bigger. From my understanding of the consensus it is supposed to be temporary, as it is nearing 3 years since it was first made I think the topic should be reponed and flags should be reinstated. -EvoSwatch (talk) 07:27, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

I'd suggest you to create new section to reopen the flag discussion.Ckfasdf (talk) 23:59, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Wikimania 2023 : Singapore, 16-19 August

Wikimedians! You are highly encouraged to apply for travel scholarship for Wikimedia Movement's largest gathering, Wikimania 2023. Wikimania 2023 will happen in Singapore and online from 16-19 August, 2023. There is a pre-conference on the 15th and a post-conference on the 20th. It is back on our region since Hong Kong in 2013. Application deadline is on 5 February 2023 at 23:59 AoE. Regular registration will happen around May 2023. --Exec8 (talk) Exec8 (talk) 07:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Would it be possible to explain "AoE" for the rest of us? Wiktionary suggests "Axis of evil" which I feel may not be quite right. Thanks. Davidelit (Talk) 07:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

That's Anywhere on Earth. dwadieff ✉ 08:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Japanese government-issued Philippine peso#Requested move 29 January 2023

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Japanese government-issued Philippine peso#Requested move 29 January 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. —hueman1 (talk • contributions) 01:01, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Photo montages in province infobox

Hello there - montages have been added back to the province infoboxes. There was a solid consensus Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indonesia/Archive 9#Province infobox photos... to not have single or montage photos in infoboxes.

The addition of the photos has been by a single editor. It looks like a lot of work, but I still recommended they be removed. --Merbabu (talk) 08:39, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Agree with Merbabu, still also recommend to remove them. Jakarta is an exception though. Ckfasdf (talk) 09:48, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Agree on Jakarta - as a Wikipedia topic, it is primarily about the city not the province.

(Personally I’m in favour of single images rather than montages for city articles - but that’s a different discussion that I know won’t get far. Ha ha ) —Merbabu (talk) 21:26, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

IP user deleted image Nusantara City in Infobox

there are IP users who delete photos in infobox because per consensus, so is this correct or are there exceptions like Jakarta? Whatsup236 (talk) 06:32, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

That consensus is only applies to Provinces. Jakarta is an exception for that consensus since while it is actually a province, it's more like a city by nature. And, we don't have similar consensus for cities/regencies or other subdivisions yet. If necessary, you can discuss it on that article talk page. Ckfasdf (talk) 07:04, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Apparently, Nusantara is excluded because it is on a par with Washington, D.C., Brasília, Putrajaya, and also Ankara. (I only recommend it, and the consensus still applies in each province) Baqotun0023 (talk) 07:10, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Ok, I'll restore the image as before Whatsup236 (talk) 07:16, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Gambang (instrument)#Requested move 21 February 2023

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Gambang (instrument)#Requested move 21 February 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Fuzheado | Talk 03:29, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Provincial CoA on new provinces

There have been several instances of people adding supposed-coat of arms of new provinces in Papua which are mostly unofficial or "suggestions". I have not seen any actually being conflirmed other than Highland Papua (which is derived based on one photo of a government building from Wamena. And it does not seem to have legal status yet). Anyone else can confirm if these new provinces have already got their symbols described legally or at least seen in the wild? Nyanardsan (talk) 03:58, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

IIRC, out of 3 new provinces in Papua, only Central Papua that have officially declared their CoA. source. Ckfasdf (talk) 11:59, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

as of 19 april 2023, CoA of Central Papua is not officially ratified yet. The draft is still being discussed between regional govt of Central Papua and Ministry of Home Affairs. Ckfasdf (talk) 07:37, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

its not a draft, its already official.

“Kami Provinsi pertama dari empat DOB yang sudah memiliki logo,” tegas Ribka. Sebagaimana kata Ribka, sudah ada Pergub nomor 15 tahun 2023 tentang lambang daerah. Dengan demikian, diharapkan bulan depan Aparatur Sipil Negara (ASN) bajunya sudah dipasang logo tersebut". - ceposonline.com

secondly, in the draft itself there is a word TETAP, which means those specific pasal (about the logo meaning) won't be changed at all in the final version

third, local government rarely upload their law on the internet, this draft is the only one we have for now and probably forever

i created the article Armorial of Indonesia, i know what i'm doing Afif Brika1 (talk) 15:51, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Ok, my mistake. It seems that statement is taken from this link. I'll update description on Commons, since previously I only read desc on Commons (which only shows the draft of that pergub. Ckfasdf (talk) 01:22, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Project-independent quality assessments

Quality assessments by Wikipedia editors rate articles in terms of completeness, organization, prose quality, sourcing, etc. Most wikiprojects follow the general guidelines at Wikipedia:Content assessment, but some have specialized assessment guidelines. A recent Village pump proposal was approved and has been implemented to add a |class= parameter to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, which can display a general quality assessment for an article, and to let project banner templates "inherit" this assessment.

No action is required if your wikiproject follows the standard assessment approach. Over time, quality assessments will be migrated up to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, and your project banner will automatically "inherit" any changes to the general assessments for the purpose of assigning categories.

However, if your project has decided to "opt out" and follow a non-standard quality assessment approach, all you have to do is modify your wikiproject banner template to pass {{WPBannerMeta}} a new |QUALITY_CRITERIA=custom parameter. If this is done, changes to the general quality assessment will be ignored, and your project-level assessment will be displayed and used to create categories, as at present. Aymatth2 (talk) 15:09, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Free Republic of Nias

There is an AfD for this article ongoing, but it is difficult for contributors who do not know Indonesian to evaluate the notability and reliability of its sources since they are all non English. Help would be appreciated. small jars tc 18:04, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Verification for Ragnar Oratmangoen article

The Wikipedia article for Ragnar Oratmangoen claims that he is a Muslim of Indonesian origin, referencing a source written in Indonesian, so I attempted to add Oratmangoen to the "Dutch Muslims" category.

However, another Wikipedian undid my revision because I had no English sources claiming that Oratmangoen is a Muslim. Could an Indonesian-speaking person look at the source given in Oratmangoen's article and confirm whether he is a Muslim or not? If he is, please add him to the "Dutch Muslims" category and mention that there are Indonesian-language sources to support this in the edit summary. M89565c (talk) 18:56, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Non-English is accepted per Wikipedia:NOENG. And refer to reference in the article itself, https://www.indosport.com/sepakbola/amp/20200716/oratmangoen-penyerang-muslim-keturunan-indonesia-yang-main-di-belanda#aoh=16205074906365, it was mentioned that he is most likely Muslim because he put Alhamdulillah on his instragram Bio. Ckfasdf (talk) 08:16, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

In my opinion after reading the article he probably is Muslim, but this sports site seems like somewhat a poor quality news source and it would be nice to get something a bit more solid. You know, like ones that verify facts with a follow-up rather than speculating. Dan Carkner (talk) 14:09, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

That's kind of difficult. Indonesian source (even reputable news source) all referring to his social media account in which he said things that only moslem usually says (such as Alhamdulillah and Eid Mubarak, Taqabbalallahu Minna Wa Minkum). So.. it's still kind of speculating but more of educated guess. Ckfasdf (talk) 15:09, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes, unfortunately there is a large market of Indonesian news sources that are not very rigorous and when it comes to celebrity topics they are often the only easy-to-find source. Still problematic in terms of making assertions on wikipedia though. Dan Carkner (talk) 15:19, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you both for your help. M89565c (talk) 17:23, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

English translation of Ejaan yang disempurnakan

There's discussion regarding English translation of Ejaan yang disempurnakan on Talk:Perfected Spelling (Indonesian)#Enhanced, Perfected, Improved?. Looking forward to your input. Ckfasdf (talk) 08:10, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion is actually with an earlier post from a never visit again editor some time back, four and half years ago...

The first reference that I encounter in a dictionary - (definitely not a google check) -

States and uses Updated and improved spelling - I see no evidence to see why there is in any use in utilizing perfected or revised, unless I might be missing something in some way. JarrahTree 11:17, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Yea.. It was from discussion 4 years ago, but for quite sometime EYD was translated in WP as "Enhanced Spelling" until few weeks ago, where @Bebasnama decide to replace it. And makes me think about it. Ckfasdf (talk) 16:10, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: The usage of "Perfected Spelling" can be found on the following books: Mapping Asia: Cartographic Encounters Between East and West, Language, Nation and Development in Southeast Asia, Spelling and Society: The Culture and Politics of Orthography Around the World, Focus on Indonesia, Historical Dictionary of Indonesia, and many more. It's surprisingly easy to find reference that translate EYD as "Perfected Spelling". Ckfasdf (talk) 16:21, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

As I said, I dont do google, I have and use hard copies of books and dictionaries and perfected is not used. As a native speaker in english, and a very very poor user of Indonesian, I thinkthe notion of 'perfected' is wrong, by implication and inherent understanding of the usage of the word in english. But then that's one opinion. I am disappointed others have not offered their opnion. too often these discussions do not benefit from just two editors, the more the merrier... JarrahTree 03:58, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

A Google search is good in order to find out if a term/title etc. has some prevalence. We can scrutinze the search results and differentiate between significant usage in qualitiy sources and random findings in lesser sources. That said, I can see qualitiy sources in Ckfasdf's list. I could add Jim Sneddon's The Indonesian Language: Its History and Role in Modern Society, UNSW Press.

But then, we should do same for alternative translation efforts like "Enhanced spelling" etc.

Personally, I think we need to go one step back. Have you noticed that almost all sources mention the Indonesian term first, and then offer a translation for it? This means, that the primary term actually is Ejaan yang disempurnakan or its acronym EYD. I know, we have WP:USEENGLISH, but if something is usually referred to by its non-English name in common English parlance, then the non-English name is the common name (like, has anyone of you ever used anything else but Pusat Bahasa or Badan Bahasa?).

And @JT, don't feel disappointed. It's much more frustrating to combat utter fuckwittery in underwatched/undercurated ethnicity-related pages :) @Ckfasdf is a gem for being one of the few to support me when they see what's going on. –Austronesier (talk) 09:05, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

In that case, I appreciate both Ckfasdf and Austronesier's comments, and have no problem with which we way we go... JarrahTree 09:18, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Just my opinion and I don't have a strong feeling on which way it should go on Wikipedia, but I took a few years of Indonesian language courses in the West and do not recall ever hearing Perfected Spelling in any course, although maybe in a textbook it was printed somewhere. After that however in books and articles it was the most common translation I came across for EYD. To me it's a unique but acceptable literal translation that is commonly used but I'm not fussed if the group feels otherwise. In writing Wiki articles I do sometimes find it awkward to spell out either Perfected Spelling: EYD: or Van Ophuijsen Spelling System: in the intro when offering alternate spellings, and sometimes I feel "pre-1948 spelling" or "pre-independence spelling" or other time-based ways are clearer for the casual reader, but those have their flaws too. Dan Carkner (talk) 22:05, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for comment @Austronesier, @JT, @Dan Carkner. IMO, further discussion should take place in Talk:Perfected Spelling (Indonesian)#Enhanced, Perfected, Improved?. Looking forward to your input there. Ckfasdf (talk) 09:05, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Provincial flags and why they should be reinstated.

I think flags such as provincial ones should be reinstated. Reason being they are legally exist and legit (albeit its a little tricky to cite the specific laws). Flags would also not overflow the Infobox as they have its own separate section that occupies the slot next to the Coat of Arms. I surfed the wikipedia a little bit and found that Provinces of France, Prefectures of Japan, and States of the United States, etc. have their flags displayed on the infobox. Not sure why would we be the odd's one out in this case.

Hence I will repeat my self by reiterating what I previously said before:

I see no reason why we shouldn't add flags as well, as it is informative as it is harmless. And as for Flags are just CoA with a rectangle cloth with coloured background... well pretty much sums up most of the world's State/Provincial/City flags. Or if its too cluttered I disagree as a flag would only take one space and that space is already made available right next to the CoA meaning it will not make the Infobox any bigger. From my understanding of the consensus it is supposed to be temporary, as it is nearing 3 years since it was first made I think the topic should be reopened and flags should be reinstated (at least the ones we can confirm of its existence, accurate)

Flags I can confirm are the ones with link:

Sumatra (7/10 Provinces)

Aceh, North Sumatra, West Sumatra, Riau (different colour), Riau Islands, Jambi (different colour), South Sumatra, Bengkulu, Bangka Belitung, Lampung (different colour).

Java and Nusa Tenggara (8/9 Provinces)

Banten, Jakarta, West Java, Central Java, Yogyakarta, East Java, Bali (different colour), West Nusa Tenggara, East Nusa Tenggara.

Kalimantan (4/5 Provinces)

West Kalimantan, Central Kalimantan, South Kalimantan, East Kalimantan (different colour), North Kalimantan.

Sulawesi and Maluku (7/8 Provinces)

West Sulawesi, South Sulawesi, Southeast Sulawesi, Central Sulawesi, Gorontalo, North Sulawesi, Maluku, North Maluku (different colour).

Papua (3/6 Provinces)

Southwest Papua, West Papua, Papua (different colour), Highland Papua, Central Papua, South Papua.

As usual I look forward to hear everyone's thoughts on this. EvoSwatch (talk) 05:25, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

The issue with provincial flags was "Verifiability". New provinces like in province in Papua, don't have this issue as their logo regulation also includes information on provincial flag and its background color. But for older provinces, the problem still the same. IMO, based on Evoswatch info above, The next question is whether we can accept provincial flags shown in governor's office as reference to resolve "verifiability" issue. Ckfasdf (talk) 09:53, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

I personally believe so, being hoisted and placed in the Governor's office would make it being used under official capacity. Its certainly tricky and its not the best source but its the best we got until those regulations surfaced. EvoSwatch (talk) 05:56, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Improving Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Indonesia-related_articles#Names

I think that section should be improved. However, I myself don't know what the improved guidelines would look like. We can maybe try gathering ideas here.

On second mention, Western names generally only use surname (MOS:SURNAME). For Indonesian names, that's usually not always the case. I checked AP Stylebook, it only has guidelines for Arabic, Chinese, Korean, Portuguese, Russian, and Spanish names, there's no guidelines for Indonesian names.

A journalist on this tweet (that Twitter thread is worth to read by the way) claim to have made a style guide for Indonesian name. But sadly that guidelines is not publicly available (tweet). (Someone can probably ask her?) Hddty (talk) 05:45, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Enhanced Spelling of the Indonesian Language

Unfortunately the article about EYD has been moved to Enhanced Spelling of the Indonesian Language without consensus. At least a few of us seemed to agree that Perfected Spelling, although it sounds strange in English, is the Wikipedia:COMMONNAME; see Talk:Enhanced_Spelling_of_the_Indonesian_Language#Enhanced,_Perfected,_Improved?. As it has been moved several times this year I'm not clear on what the procedure is to address this. Dan Carkner (talk) 17:33, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

The sort-of-consensus for "Perfected Spelling" fell victim to an innocent technical move request ("Perfected Spelling (Indonesian)" formally violates our disambiguation rules), which resulted in Xth page move within a few month. I can't blame the admin who restored the long-standing title for the sake of stability.

The way to go now is WP:RM#CM. Be equipped with good sources for your suggested title and all potential alternatives, ideally with metrics. Try e.g. "Perfected spelling"+"Indonesian" etc. in Google Scholar. You will find that "Enhanced Spelling"+"Indonesian" superficially wins, but only in the last 5 years or so, when Indonesian graduate students started to be required to publish English papers and have found "Enhanced Spelling" in WP as the English term for EYD. A typical case of WP-induced prevalence, which is a more subtle form of citogenesis.

But if you prune for high-quality sources from Indonesian and international scholars, things might look different. Anton Moeliono and Harimurti Kridalaksana used "Improved spelling", Jim Sneddon "Perfected spelling", Husen Abas "Revised orthography", and so on. I will support whatever comes out from a thorough survey that should be done before the actual move request. –Austronesier (talk) 18:35, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Will try to do my homework on this matter. If it ends up staying where it is now, it won't be the end of the world, but I do think it should be an informed decision. Dan Carkner (talk) 18:47, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Credibility bot

As this is a highly active WikiProject, I would like to introduce you to Credibility bot. This is a bot that makes it easier to track source usage across articles through automated reports and alerts. We piloted this approach at Wikipedia:Vaccine safety and we want to offer it to any subject area or domain. We need your support to demonstrate demand for this toolkit. If you have a desire for this functionality, or would like to leave other feedback, please endorse the tool or comment at WP:CREDBOT. Thanks! Harej (talk) 17:36, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Total Wikipedia language pageviews from Indonesia

Source. Not sure whether this has been done somewhere, but I curious so I did it myself, copied from my Excel. The first table is sum of second table, where the number is rounded, so the first table's number may be a little bit not presice.

year	en (millions)	id (millions)	en %	id %
until 2023-07	558	714	43.9	56.1
2022	904	1,127	44.5	55.5
2021	907	1,296	41.2	58.8
2020	866	1,789	32.6	67.4
2019	762	1,526	33.3	66.7
2018	784	1,204	39.4	60.6
2017	674	1,180	36.4	63.6
2016	637	1,189	34.9	65.1

year	month	en (millions)	id (millions)	en %	id %
2023	07	85	98	46.4	53.6
	06	82	97	45.8	54.2
	05	91	116	44.0	56.0
	04	72	89	44.7	55.3
	03	81	111	42.2	57.8
	02	70	101	40.9	59.1
	01	77	102	43.0	57.0
2022	12	76	92	45.2	54.8
	11	83	109	43.2	56.8
	10	80	108	42.6	57.4
	09	81	110	42.4	57.6
	08	70	105	40.0	60.0
	07	72	84	46.2	53.8
	06	72	79	47.7	52.3
	05	72	78	48.0	52.0
	04	73	81	47.4	52.6
	03	77	99	43.8	56.3
	02	73	89	45.1	54.9
	01	75	93	44.6	55.4
2021	12	75	94	44.4	55.6
	11	73	106	40.8	59.2
	10	74	110	40.2	59.8
	09	75	116	39.3	60.7
	08	85	119	41.7	58.3
	07	86	98	46.7	53.3
	06	73	95	43.5	56.5
	05	71	87	44.9	55.1
	04	73	103	41.5	58.5
	03	78	132	37.1	62.9
	02	67	113	37.2	62.8
	01	77	123	38.5	61.5
2020	12	74	138	34.9	65.1
	11	78	150	34.2	65.8
	10	79	164	32.5	67.5
	09	71	174	29.0	71.0
	08	68	157	30.2	69.8
	07	68	127	34.9	65.1
	06	69	147	31.9	68.1
	05	76	132	36.5	63.5
	04	85	179	32.2	67.8
	03	71	162	30.5	69.5
	02	60	126	32.3	67.7
	01	67	133	33.5	66.5
2019	12	64	121	34.6	65.4
	11	63	143	30.6	69.4
	10	67	160	29.5	70.5
	09	63	158	28.5	71.5
	08	62	141	30.5	69.5
	07	64	118	35.2	64.8
	06	60	88	40.5	59.5
	05	62	110	36.0	64.0
	04	61	120	33.7	66.3
	03	66	129	33.8	66.2
	02	61	115	34.7	65.3
	01	69	123	35.9	64.1
2018	12	67	106	38.7	61.3
	11	65	134	32.7	67.3
	10	66	129	33.8	66.2
	09	66	118	35.9	64.1
	08	68	111	38.0	62.0
	07	67	89	42.9	57.1
	06	64	66	49.2	50.8
	05	68	93	42.2	57.8
	04	62	88	41.3	58.7
	03	66	93	41.5	58.5
	02	57	81	41.3	58.7
	01	68	96	41.5	58.5
2017	12	63	83	43.2	56.8
	11	62	98	38.8	61.3
	10	54	106	33.8	66.3
	09	53	104	33.8	66.2
	08	53	98	35.1	64.9
	07	56	80	41.2	58.8
	06	52	66	44.1	55.9
	05	56	96	36.8	63.2
	04	55	110	33.3	66.7
	03	60	126	32.3	67.7
	02	52	107	32.7	67.3
	01	58	106	35.4	64.6
2016	12	55	96	36.4	63.6
	11	54	117	31.6	68.4
	10	54	119	31.2	68.8
	09	52	110	32.1	67.9
	08	53	107	33.1	66.9
	07	52	77	40.3	59.7
	06	55	75	42.3	57.7
	05	53	93	36.3	63.7
	04	51	96	34.7	65.3
	03	54	104	34.2	65.8
	02	50	95	34.5	65.5
	01	54	100	35.1	64.9
2015	12	52	88	37.1	62.9

Hddty (talk) 14:31, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Help rebuilding the article Salakanagara (a mythical kingdom in West Java)

That article was fairly well fleshed out. The only problem is that it had poor sources and as a result described as facts things that are (mostly) a 17th-century reconstruction of what must have happened sixteen centuries ago. It also included theories that are, hmm, let’s say "optimistic" - such as having the Egypt-based savant Ptolemy travelling in person to Java (at a time where going from Egypt to India was already a long and dangerous voyage, let alone pushing to the West Indies).

I violently cut it down to a fairly short stub with basically a single scholarly source that says (essentially) that the kingdom is a myth. (I might have lost some valuable stuff in the process within all the cruft.) A Google Scholar search for "Salakanagara" seems to find some more literature on the subject but most sources are in Bahasa Indonesia (which I cannot read and online translators do not seem to work well). Tigraan^{Click here for my talk page ("private" contact)} 11:59, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Women in Green's 5th Edit-a-thon

Hello WikiProject Indonesia:

WikiProject Women in Green is holding a month-long Good Article Edit-a-thon event in October 2023!

Running from October 1 to 31, 2023, WikiProject Women in Green (WiG) is hosting a Good Article (GA) edit-a-thon event with the theme Around the World in 31 Days! All experience levels welcome. Never worked on a GA project before? We'll teach you how to get started. Or maybe you're an old hand at GAs – we'd love to have you involved! Participants are invited to work on nominating and/or reviewing GA submissions related to women and women's works (e.g., books, films) during the event period. We hope to collectively cover article subjects from at least 31 countries (or broader international articles) by month's end. GA resources and one-on-one support will be provided by experienced GA editors, and participants will have the opportunity to earn a special WiG barnstar for their efforts.

We hope to see you there!

Grnrchst (talk) 13:10, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Source dispute on Bersiap

I don't know the first thing about Indonesian history, so hoping an experienced editor who does can take a look at something. A mixture of accounts and IPs (possibly one person? unclear) have made a bunch of edits to the Bersiap article, apparently incensed by the inclusion of a source from one particular scholar. I do not know anything about the validity of the objection (regardless of the scholar's reputation, it seems to me it's just being used to source the fact that the Bersiap is known by different names in different parts of Indonesia), and their manner of addressing it has involved only deleting half of reference templates at a time and repeatedly reverting.

The page is now semi-protected, but the discussion continues on the talk page. This person/people's rather chaotic approach continues, including logging out of accounts halfway through discussion threads and using very uncivil language. Hoping someone can weigh in on the substance of the issue, so we can then focus on handling the disruptive behaviour aspect. Thanks in advance! AntiDionysius (talk) 16:46, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

I have some experience with these sources and have edited this article in the past, I will try and take a look thanks. Dan Carkner (talk) 14:20, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

OK I can see now that it's (apparently) the same editor I came across before who wants only one perspective to be represented in the article. That's not appropriate about a historical topic with different viewpoints on it but I'll have to come back to it later when I have more time to dig into sources. Dan Carkner (talk) 14:39, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Dutch East Indies people categories

Hi folks, I'm trying to figure out what went on here and who initiated it but I admit I'm not good at figuring out where to see the history of speedy category moves or what discussion took place after it's been closed. Category:Dutch people of the Dutch East Indies was apparently speedy moved to Category:Dutch expatriates in the Dutch East Indies which strikes me as worse. Were all (European-born) Dutch people expatriates there? But it was part of their own territory wasn't it? And how about Dutch people born and living in the Indies, are they now part of this category?

Perhaps there are not enough articles to be fussing about this but it strikes me there are different overlapping concepts: ethnically "Dutch" people in the Indies (may include Indos, may be born in Europe or Asia or South Africa etc), Dutch citizens in the Indies (may include Indos and later others who applied, excluding German and other citizens living and working equally as Europeans in Indies), and people with European status in the Indies (may include those non Dutch citizens, is perhaps the most omnipresent and important legal status for someone as compared to the others).

Any thoughts? Dan Carkner (talk) 14:17, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Added a request for it to be moved back here. Dan Carkner (talk) 14:40, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Pity this noticeboard discussion point is bit like an echo chamber of late... JarrahTree 01:08, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Army Strategic Reserve Command#Requested move 15 September 2023

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Army Strategic Reserve Command#Requested move 15 September 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. – robertsky (talk) 15:41, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Suggested move discussion for EYD

Follow-up to my thread above, I finally did a bit of research and suggested a move for Indonesian orthography. Dan Carkner (talk) 17:44, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Kuta (Lombok) and Mandalika (resort area) - merge?

I recently travelled to Lombok and reviewed some of Wikipedia's articles about the island, notably those relating to Kuta and Mandalika (also the nearby Mandalika International Street Circuit). The Kuta and Mandalika resort articles are essentially about the same small area, and I think they should be merged into one - perhaps named 'Kuta Mandalika' (I saw some large street signage using this name). What do other editors think? Paul W (talk) 18:25, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

New Sin Po

Can someone help me make sense of this edit? They have added a mention that Sin Po continues as a digital publication, and the reference is a link to the website of the new publication which does seem legit--but is it appropriate to frame it in the article as a continuation and not simply a new publication half a century later that adopted a historical name? thanks. Dan Carkner (talk) 17:03, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

It is certainly inappropriate to frame it in wikivoice as a revival, with no other information on links between the two and no independent source. A bit better would be saying a new publication has adopted the name of the previous one, but even then an independent source would be preferable. CMD (talk) 17:27, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

That is my feeling about the situation as well. Dan Carkner (talk) 20:15, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

The added sentence has many tense issues - it is bizarre. The sense of the added material does not fit with the article anyway...CMD suggestion is good JarrahTree 01:37, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

I removed it with a note the statement could be restored if secondary sources explained the connection. Dan Carkner (talk) 13:19, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:TVRI Sulawesi Selatan#Requested move 3 November 2023

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:TVRI Sulawesi Selatan#Requested move 3 November 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Lightoil (talk) 17:29, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Sir David's long-beaked echidna#Requested move 11 November 2023

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Sir David's long-beaked echidna#Requested move 11 November 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. UtherSRG (talk) 13:28, 12 November 2023 (UTC)