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WikiProject Indonesia (Rated Project-class)
WikiProject iconThis page is within the scope of WikiProject Indonesia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Indonesia and Indonesia-related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
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Jihane Almira ChedidEdit

How do I tell the author that being a DPR Ambassador is not the same as being a DPR speaker or member? --Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 13:54, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Eka Supria AtmajaEdit

Hello, I recently created an article for Eka Supria Atmaja. Any help improving it would be appreciated. Thank you, Thriley (talk) 01:50, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

I did my best based on current news articles or ones from a few years ago about his electoral activities, but I could not find much else about him in books or databases.--Dan Carkner (talk) 15:30, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Indonesia has one of the YOUNGEST prime ministers in the world?Edit

TIL: The point of this thread is to ask whether it is suitable to include Ide Anak Agung Gde Agung in the List of youngest state leaders since 1900

So I've been thinking about this for a while and it took me some time to put this into word. As we know, Ide Anak Agung Gde Agung was a Balinese aristocrat who became the Prime Minister of East Indonesia. What's interesting is his age when he assumed the office: he was born on 21 July 1921 and he was installed on 15 December 1947. That means he was 26 years, 4 months when he became prime minister. For comparison, Sanna Marin, who was hailed as world's youngest prime minister (should've specified it as world's youngest incumbent prime minister) is 35 years old. And looking at this list, List of youngest state leaders since 1900, Agung is probably the second youngest prime minister in the world!

At first sight this seems ridiculous. It is common knowledge that East Indonesia is a Dutch puppet and the indigenuous officials can't do anything. Yes, that is on paper, but when we examine further East Indonesia is de jure until 27 August 1949, the date of RIS formation (and coincidentally the date when Agung ended his tenure as prime minister). There were no state body above the federal states (NICA isn't a state and the relations between Netherlands and the federal states is de jure an equal one). Please give your thoughts on this. (Sorry my English is a bit bad) --Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 12:47, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Discussion at Indonesian WikipediaEdit

Maybe many here, especially native Indonesians who edit more in English Wikipedia, would be interested in a discussion I just created here (unlink date per WP:DATELINK and simplification of lead sentence parenthetical phrases). Thanks. Hddty (talk) 07:21, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Boven Digoel redirect - thoughts?Edit

Hi folks, I think it would be worthwhile to have an Indonesian perspective on this (or Papuan if there are any of you on here!). Due to the renaming of the article about the camp as Boven-Digoel concentration camp, Boven-Digoel is now a disambiguation page between the camp and the regency. What do you think of my suggestion on Talk:Boven-Digoel that the Regency may the primary topic at this point? --Dan Carkner (talk) 16:25, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Religion articles and sectionsEdit

There have been a lot of uncited changes to religion numbers in Indonesian articles recently. Mostly seems to be people increasing the percentages of their favourite religions. If it goes on, there might be a need for some page protection, but I'm inclined to wait and see if they get bored. Any thoughts? Stay well everybody. Davidelit (Talk) 10:27, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

At the current level of disruption, I think "watch and revert" still works. And then follow the track of the disruptive editor for more unsourced changes.
Another problem is with old unnoticed changes, so sometimes incorrect data becomes part of the "stable version". Recently, I dug up[1] the original sourced figures for Minahasan people, although I had to trust the IP that their data really corresponds to the source. –Austronesier (talk) 20:56, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Portuguese colonialism in the East IndiesEdit

hey, I need your help and confirmation, does this article related or made under the context of Indonesian history or not? Mhatopzz (talk) 02:30, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, the intent was for it to be about Portuguese colonialism in Indonesia. Then the word "Indonesia" was removed by someone who objected to it being used about events 4 centuries ago, and it was about the "East Indies", hence today's argument about why haven't we talked about India, Macau and Malaysia (is there an *eye roll* symbol on wikipedia?). However, your change of article title to "Portuguese colonialism in Indonesian history" is a good one, in my opinion. thank you. The conversation is better continued at the article talk page.--Merbabu (talk) 08:19, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Cities and regencies article improvementEdit

I've been working on several regencies and cities for a while and at least made them C-class articles. I really hope we could at least make all provincial capital cities in Indonesia C-class by the end of this year. There also seems to be many outdated informations that need some update. Anyone onboard? Nyanardsan (talk) 08:44, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Ali KaloraEdit

I just partly translated Ali Kalora. I think its a pretty big deal that he was shot to death, would it worth to try inserting it to ITN? At least at minimum we can try to make it into RD. Apologize for the tag. @Mhatopzz @Dan Carkner @Jeromi Mikhael @Gerald Waldo Luis Nyanardsan (talk) 05:53, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

@Nyanardsan: wee bit late - but RDs are “as long as the article is accepted and not full of yellow tags it’s fine” so you don’t really have to ask others before nomming RD. Juxlos (talk) 08:04, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Big messEdit

Here's a challenge: History_of_the_Malay_language. One big ramble of barely decipherable musings. About as anti-wikipedia as you can get. Who's game? --Merbabu (talk) 23:55, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Oof. I don't have it on hand (borrowed it from the library before) but I would definitely recommend The Indonesian Language: Its History and Role in Modern Society by James Sneddon as a reliable source for whoever wants to tackle this. It's a book-length history of it. --Dan Carkner (talk) 19:02, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

National symbols of IndonesiaEdit

Many (most?) items listed here are accompanied by their Indonesian translation. Is that really what we should be doing? I would have thought not. I did a spot check of (an admittedly small sample) of the counterpart articles of France and Germany, and translations are not provided. The following terms, amongst others, are provided with Indonesian translations: "Unity in diversity", "red and white", "Jasminum sambac", "moon orchid", "national animal", "national bird", "diamond", etc, etc. Sure, if there is a proper noun or a non-translatable item, that's fine, but most are not these cases.

And casting a wider net, even in the Germany article, a translation of German (language) as "Deutsch" is not provided. Yet across the Indonesian "project" the articles are riddled with (what I think are superfluous) translations into Indonesian. --Merbabu (talk) 02:41, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

We should keep the Indonesian name whenever there is a significant mismatch that needs a literal translation (e.g. for sang merah putih (lit. 'the honored red-white') , or in the case of a gross but established mistranslations such as "Unity in diversity" (Bhinneka Tunggal Ika which actually means 'they are different [yet] they are one'). In some cases, the English translations are simply wrong ("national bird" for satwa langka).
I agree that we should keep original language clutter to a minimum, especially when it doesn't really serve our readers. If an Indonesian equivalent is commonly mentioned in English-language sources, we can add it here for easy reference. But if it predominantly/exclusively appears in Indonesian texts (which the average non-Indo/Malay reader of en.WP can't read), it adds little information value here.
Btw, clutter just invites more clutter, see hereKawi script. –Austronesier (talk) 10:19, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
Regardless of what people are doing in articles about German topics, I myself am a fan of including non-English language text in parentheses where the article refers to a specific foreign language concept or proper name of a thing, even if it adds to clutter. Perhaps in this specific case it can be trimmed down a bit by using the version of the language template that does not link to the Indonesian language article every single time. As in (satwa langka) vs (Indonesian: satwa langka). Dan Carkner (talk) 19:00, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Created a few Presidential inauguration articlesEdit

Mind if someone group them in a single category?


More articles coming soon. Mhatopzz (talk) 12:54, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

National Hero Backlog Drive (again?)Edit

So, there's four new figures named National Hero again Profil 4 Tokoh yang Mendapat Gelar Pahlawan Nasional 2021 this year. I've been thinking lately since many of National Hero biographies are barely start or stub, we probably could do a more organized backlog drive. As in, having barnstar as reward for it or something. It would be good if there's incentives for members of Wikiproject Indonesia to do deep researches on them and make this actual annual backlog drive like some big Wikiprojects did.

There's a dire need for reliable sources for these articles from books or historical records outside of articles about them in news when they are given the title. Given the fact that these figure's historical records and biographies were researched by TP2G in regional and national level consist of historians and actual academicians, Im sure we could find decent amount of information about them if we look hard enough.

What do you all think? Sorry for the tag @Mhatopzz @Dan Carkner @Jeromi Mikhael @Juxlos @Merbabu Nyanardsan (talk) 08:29, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Sure, but I will leave it to him @The man from Gianyar. Mhatopzz (talk) 11:44, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
I'm currently juggling three different articles to work on, Ali Sastroamidjojo, History of Bandung, and Ali Wardhana, but I might be able to do Usmar Ismail, but that's pretty much it, @User:Mhatopzz @User:Nyanardsan The man from Gianyar (talk) 12:08, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
For Tombolotutu [id], there are at least two good sources:
If time allows, I'll try to write up something. I have some affinity to the topic since the Lauje language of Tinombo (Parigi Moutong Regency) is part of my wider research area, and I have thus become familiar with the ramifications of power between inner hill people, indigenous coastal groups, and non-indigenous coastal groups in that region. The article by Nourse gives an interesting alternative view to the official heroic historiography: as in other known cases, the non-indigenous aristocrat Tombolotutu turned into a rebel primarily not for idealistic reasons, but because the Dutch (supported by the indigenous elite) gave their favor to one of his rivals in the succession to the title or raja in the petty Kingdom of Moutong. –Austronesier (talk) 12:09, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
I'll try with Aji Muhammad Idris myself since Im quite familiar with history of East Kalimantan. Also btw what about establishing barnstar for this Wikiproject? Nyanardsan (talk) 12:43, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
There are no rules on barnstars - you can award someone a barnstar simply for existing, unless you want to design a, say “National Barnstar of Indonesia”. Juxlos (talk) 13:11, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
I can't say 17th-19th century local heroes is my area of knowledge, unfortunately. Juxlos (talk) 12:22, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
I will be trying to write a bunch of Indonesia-related articles for Wikipedia Asian Month 2021 anyways so I don't mind tackling the remaining one Raden Arya Wangsakara, even if he's not my usual type of research it shouldn't be too hard to summarize what is in print about him. Dan Carkner (talk) 16:40, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
I was starting to work based on the ID Wikipedia article about him but unless I'm mistaken it seems to be copy pasted directly from the Kompas article it cites as its only source. Sigh! Dan Carkner (talk) 23:18, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
I have created the article at Aria Wangsakara. There really wasn't anything about him in any of the databases I have access to; just some Indonesian books of dubious quality and news articles from the recent announcements. Dan Carkner (talk) 01:44, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

English vs Dutch...Edit

Hi there - i picked up on this edit the other day. It seems there may be more.

In essence, it seems in this edit that Dutch has been favoured over English. Ie, Jambi Residency has been converted to Djambi Residency. Or perhaps the argument is that we use Djambi as this was the name at the time. I'm leaning towards favouring the modern name, but I'm interested in other arguments. --Merbabu (talk) 20:54, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

The basic rule is: we do as reliable English-language sources do. A quick scan through commons:Category:Old maps of Southeast Asia indicates that English from back then also seems to favour Jambi. There's even an incidental Jambee, but let's not go there. --HyperGaruda (talk) 18:50, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
Hi there. There is an important distinction in your reply: "English back then". For historical entities, should we be using English from back then, or contemporary English? Although in this the Jambi/Djambi case, you note back then also favours Jambi. Interesting. --Merbabu (talk) 20:04, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
When I read this last night, I looked up on Google Books for both spellings and automatically set the upper date limit to 1945. I guess that's our nostalgic inner self. But actually, this cutoff is not supported by our naming conventions. Of course, modern English-language sources have equal weight as long as they discuss the historical entities. And if modern sources retroactively use modern spellings even though contemporary English-language sources back then followed the Dutch (or Indonesian Republican) spelling, we should give preference to usage in modern sources. –Austronesier (talk) 21:25, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
I was the one who changed from Jambi to Djambi, because it seemed to me it would never have been written Jambi in its time, owing to it being changed because of spelling reforms after 1948. I found relatively little attention was paid to residencies in English sources and those that did were inconsistent with spelling. Didn't even think of historical English maps. At the moment it was the only Residency that had its own stub and I thought if I was going to create more it would be consistent to use their name on paper from the time in the same way we have Kyiv the city, but Kiev Governorate, and so on. And to distinguish the historical geographic unit from the current day one. But whatever people think is the best way to do it I'm willing to abide by going forward. Dan Carkner (talk) 21:30, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
Hello folks, no one has seemed to have any comment, so I will continue naming the obsolete residencies with their Dutch spelling. That is the approach used by Cribb in his historical atlas of Indonesia: "I have generally preserved colonial-era spelling for Dutch administrative names, mainly because many of them have no contemporary equivalent, and they cannot be modernized in the way that place names can. Thus, because Groote Oost has to be preserved in its original spelling, so too are the Lampongsche Districten and Bantam, insofar as these were administrative divisions." p. 10 Cribb, R. B. (2000). Historical atlas of Indonesia. Honolulu: University of Hawai'i Press. ISBN 0-8248-2111-4. I think there is some logic in using it as a distinction from their present day counterpart even as those will invariably be mentioned in the intro of every residency article. Dan Carkner (talk) 00:51, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

URGENT HELP NEEDEDEdit

The attacks on Wikimedia images of Jakarta are continuing: see this latest Wikilawyering assault. If this continues, there will be no images of Jakarta at all soon, and no point in making any further contributions. Any thoughts @Mhatopzz @Dan Carkner @Jeromi Mikhael @Juxlos @Merbabu @JarrahTree Davidelit (Talk) 04:14, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't know what to say. Deletion on commons is not a vote, rather we need good policy based arguments. As far as I understand the copy right law in this case, the deletionists have a point. As crazy as the result seems to be. --Merbabu (talk) 11:02, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
I agree, bizarre to me as well but I do not know enough about the copyright rules to contradict them. The idea that you cannot post your own photo of a national landmark where major events happen...? So if it was in the backdrop of a photo of an event ? Sigh... --Dan Carkner (talk) 16:29, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
If it's in the backdrop, it might probably fall under "de minimis" which is cited in the deletion request page. In any case, I am clueless too: how bizarre, how bizarre... –Austronesier (talk) 21:53, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
Soon many more articles will be bereft of pictures. There is no consensus on the Freedom of Panorama (see this and this), but the destruction is still underway. The problem is the lack of admins in the project to fight our corner. Might be time to find another hobby... Davidelit (Talk) 04:20, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
You could always upload a low-resolution copy locally to just en-wiki under the fair use principle. The problem is not a lack of allies, it's simply the Indonesian law versus the Commons principle of files having no restrictions for re-use. You do not want to get into the situation where you use a file and years later are sued for not adhering strictly to the creator/architect's copyright terms. --HyperGaruda (talk) 08:02, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

About Soepardjo and Supardjo - WP:MOVE to Soepardjo (born 1929) and Soepardjo (born 1923)? Some other solution?Edit

Hi all,

They are obviously two different people.

WP:ID-SPELLING suggests that most recent spelling of their names should be used. Given that both Soepardjo-s were born in the 1920s, it would appear to me that Van Ophuijsen Spelling System for the digraph "oe" might apply here.

Your opinions? Is there some established policy or guideline I have missed here? Or something else? Pete AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 10:35, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Agreed - very miscible. Juxlos (talk) 13:55, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
An awkward case. Both are lesser-known figures so I don't think the old/new spelling issue would be the most important factor nor would be the case that one should have one spelling and the other have the other one. Per Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(people)#Disambiguating they suggest adding year of birth if two people had the same occupation. On the other hand one time I wrote an article about Zinovy Shulman the Soviet singer as there was already the article about Zinovii Shulman the scientist. It's purely arbitrary which article has which spelling, as it is just a slightly different way of transliterating Russian, but in the years since no one has cared.Dan Carkner (talk) 14:49, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
One of the cases where if you don't do it nobody notices and if you do it nobody notices still. Juxlos (talk) 08:44, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Persaudaraan Setia Hati TerateEdit

Can someone work out what is going on at this article. There are a couple of new editors with differing claims about the leader and the official website of the group. Presumably this is a factional dispute. A brief note by an onlooker is on talk, and I saw it at a request for protection (WP:RFPP). Johnuniq (talk) 06:48, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

@Johnuniq: Yeah, a leadership dispute that got all the way to the Supreme Court of Indonesia. Ketua DPD RI dampingi PSHT temui Ketum KONI untuk selesaikan polemik Juxlos (talk) 05:01, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
Umm, I'm hoping you will know what should be done in the article. If there is a credible dispute, the best thing might to remove text about the leader or the website? Johnuniq (talk) 06:22, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
Probably mention the leader based on the court decision and then note that he faced a leadership challenge, mentioning the court case. Juxlos (talk) 06:25, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

FAR for Torajan peopleEdit

I have nominated Torajan people for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. (t · c) buidhe 09:09, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Sarah Azhari 's page up for deletionEdit

Someone decided that Sarah Azhari page must be deleted. Thoughts?

  • I personally support the deletion, the nominator has a point. She is mostly known for her controversy, most of the results are gossip pieces/attention-grabbing infotaiments which have questionable quality, the source in current article is not any better Nyanardsan (talk) 00:24, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
  • hi, dont know if you read the new resources i did find, let me know what you think.

[1][2][3][4]Profil Sarah Azhari, Wajahnya Tetap Menawan di Usia 40-an, Kini Hijrah ke LA Amerika Serikat Amoeba69th (talk) 20:38, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Read WP:CANVAS. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:59, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
@AndyTheGrump: Be assured that the regulars of this project are not easily impressed by non-neutral notifications. Most of these actually turn into a boomerang in the shape of !votes that diametrically go against the intentions of the OP :) –Austronesier (talk) 00:08, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
read and got it andythegrump and thanks austronesier for reviewing the sources as non-neutral, right ? Amoeba69th (talk) 02:42, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "KapanLagi.com: Profil Sarah Azhari". KapanLagi.com.
  2. ^ "Biografi dan Profil Lengkap Agama dan Umur Sarah Azhari yang Kecantikannya Bikin Gagal Fokus". correcto.id.
  3. ^ "Biodata Lengkap Sarah Azhari, Model Seksi Era 2000an yang Dinikahi Anak Pejabat - Semua Halaman - HIts". hits.grid.id.
  4. ^ "Sarah Azhari Masih Eksis! Meliuk Seksi di Dance To Survive". detikhot.

Featured article nominationEdit

  You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Sjafruddin Prawiranegara/archive1. It would be great to get more folks familiar with Indonesia topics to take a look at it. Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}}talk 19:37, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Help needed with Indonesian language sources at Sarah AzhariEdit

  You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Sarah Azhari. Peaceray (talk) 21:35, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

De facto Republic of IndonesiaEdit

I recently came across to article of De facto Republic of Indonesia. IMO, it is unnecessary content forking. The content on that page is mainly copied from Linggadjati Agreement and almost no information on Republic of Indonesia at that time. Do we really need that page? Can we just merge/redirect or propose Afd on that article. Ckfasdf (talk) 13:02, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

That article looks like some NICA guy wrote it. Juxlos (talk) 13:35, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
So? AfD.. it is? Ckfasdf (talk) 01:46, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
That would be like a De facto United States because they weren’t recognized by the British between 1776 and 1783 so yeah AFD. Juxlos (talk) 03:04, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
That's what I thought as well. Oh well, AfD created. Ckfasdf (talk) 03:47, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Nomination of De facto Republic of Indonesia for deletionEdit

 
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article De facto Republic of Indonesia is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/De facto Republic of Indonesia until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.

Ckfasdf (talk) 03:47, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

FAR for DurianEdit

I have nominated Durian for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Hog Farm Talk 17:34, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Pia Zebadiah Bernadeth#Requested move 30 March 2022Edit

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Pia Zebadiah Bernadeth#Requested move 30 March 2022 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. 🐶 EpicPupper (he/him | talk) 21:22, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

2022 Indonesian student protestsEdit

Hi, calling active contributors on WP:Indonesia to edit this ongoing event. I think this time we should not repeat what we did with Omnibus Law protest and actually aiming for ITN, as it is widespread enough. Nyanardsan (talk) 07:52, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

This has had almost very little international coverage, and in any case the article is not very well written. The last Indonesian story to feature on the BBC app appears to be the birth of a Sumatran Rhino. Perhaps that could be nominated for "ITN" instead? Davidelit (Talk) 14:35, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
WP:NOTNEWS, WP:NOTSOAPBOX (just to clarify, I'm not talking about the rhino). –Austronesier (talk) 19:06, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

User script to detect unreliable sourcesEdit

I have (with the help of others) made a small user script to detect and highlight various links to unreliable sources and predatory journals. Some of you may already be familiar with it, given it is currently the 39th most imported script on Wikipedia. The idea is that it takes something like

  • John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14. (John Smith "[https://www.deprecated.com/article Article of things]" ''Deprecated.com''. Accessed 2020-02-14.)

and turns it into something like

It will work on a variety of links, including those from {{cite web}}, {{cite journal}} and {{doi}}.

The script is mostly based on WP:RSPSOURCES, WP:NPPSG and WP:CITEWATCH and a good dose of common sense. I'm always expanding coverage and tweaking the script's logic, so general feedback and suggestions to expand coverage to other unreliable sources are always welcomed.

Do note that this is not a script to be mindlessly used, and several caveats apply. Details and instructions are available at User:Headbomb/unreliable. Questions, comments and requests can be made at User talk:Headbomb/unreliable.

- Headbomb {t · c · p · b}

This is a one time notice and can't be unsubscribed from. Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:01, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Requested move: JavaEdit

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Java (programming language)#Requested move 16 May 2022 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Certes (talk) 09:04, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

The island is the primary topic. There's even a guideline/policy that says page views are irrelevant. Can't find it right now. Ridiculous. And island of 130 m people is not primary topic? --Merbabu (talk) 09:08, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
This again ? And you are quite right, it's absurd to say it would not be primary. --Dan Carkner (talk) 16:02, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Multatuli MuseumsEdit

I notice there are now at least 2 Multatuli Museums with essentially the same name: the one in Amsterdam which is described at Multatuli Museum and the one opened in 2018 in Banten which is at https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Museum_Multatuli on the Indonesian wikipedia, but not yet on the EN wikipedia. Any thoughts on how to have articles about both? If the NL one is older (unsure of the opening date) and has the author's personal papers, perhaps it is a more primary topic, and the Indonesian one should be the one have some kind of parenthetical disambiguation in the title? --Dan Carkner (talk) 20:00, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

I’d say both getting parentheses are fair enough, since it’s not like either are massive museums at the tier of say the Louvre. Juxlos (talk) 01:49, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
I could certainly go along with that .. what do you propose? (Amsterdam) and (Indonesia) ? --Dan Carkner (talk) 04:50, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
(Netherlands) and (Indonesia) feel more fitting, not like there’s plenty of Multatuli museums in either country. Juxlos (talk) 05:10, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
Right, with a disambiguation page at the current location? I think that makes sense. Will double check article titling guidelines just to make sure before doing so. --Dan Carkner (talk) 13:46, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
Done. There is now my new article at Multatuli Museum (Indonesia), the old article at Multatuli Museum (Netherlands) and a disambiguation at Multatuli Museum. Dan Carkner (talk) 14:37, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Let(t)iEdit

I suspect that that the content of Leti Islands (or Letti Islands) should be about islands (and in particular one island) with a name spelt the exact same way (with the same number of "t"s) -- and that if the other spelling isn't a mere mistake, that there should be a redirect from it. Which spelling is preferable? I've no idea. (Normally I'd look in the references; but no usable reference is provided.) Over to you. -- Hoary (talk) 03:16, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Is your question about the spelling specifically? I hadn't heard of these islands but maybe there are two co-existing variant spellings. When I search news sites like Tempo or Kompas for "Kepulauan Letti" I get under a dozen results and none for "Kepulauan Leti". conversely on this educational repository I get 2 results for "Kepulauan Leti" and none for "Kepulauan Letti". Likewise general google results about 5500 for "Kepulauan Leti" and around 2500 for "Kepulauan Letti". I would say they are variants and that neither is canonically correct, just my guess. I will redirect from whichever is not in the article title. --Dan Carkner (talk) 03:47, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
Dan Carkner, yes, about the spelling specifically. But conceivably each spelling was the sole, indisputed spelling for the name in this or that relevant Indonesian language. I could of course have read up on the matter of appropriate nomenclature of Indonesian placenames, but the minutes add up. -- Hoary (talk) 04:30, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
Refer to official map of Indonesia, provided by Indonesian Geospatial Information Agency, the Name of Island is "Letti Island" and it is part of "Letti Islands" (with double "t"). Ckfasdf (talk) 04:50, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
So it is, good idea to look there. Perhaps the article should be moved to Letti Islands with the redirect from Leti Islands, and a mention somewhere in the intro paragraph about the fact the alternate spelling appears sometimes. Dan Carkner (talk) 04:59, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
Done. Dan Carkner (talk) 05:05, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
That's a good sample of the kind of possibility that made me hesitate and defer to the Indonesia-knowledgable. I've no particular objection to the unquestioning adherence to prescriptions/preferences of the Indonesian Geospatial Information Agency; but elsewhere in the vastness of Wikipedia, state-prescribed names and spellings count for nothing and what matters is the name, and its spelling, most commonly used within English-language text. -- Hoary (talk) 09:01, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
I have always thought that "Letti" is an outdated Dutch/colonial spelling. I've done some work (but NB not fieldwork) about the languages of Southwest Maluku, and always used the spelling "Leti" for people, langugage, island and island group. My colleague Aone van Engelenhoven, who has family ties to the island, always writes "Leti" AFAIK. But yes, the official spelling of the district (= island) is kecamatan Letti, as I have learned today.
In a Google Books search (only 21st century), "Leti Islands" by far outweighs "Letti Islands". So there's a discrepancy WP:COMMONNAME vs. official spelling in Indonesian sources. –Austronesier (talk) 11:05, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
Badan bahasa also list the language as "Letti". So yea.. It's WP:COMMONNAME vs. official spelling. Should we open up WP:REQMOVE on talk page? Ckfasdf (talk) 12:19, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
Huh. Well I'm open to whatever people want to do. IMO where it comes down to just one letter of spelling in the difference, and that both are present as redirects and in the first paragraph, it doesn't see like a big issue. But maybe there is some significance that I am not aware of. Dan Carkner (talk) 15:15, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
I'm good with the current solution (= Letti Islands). I'd probably start to feel strongly about things when an editor suddenly came up with the idea to move Leti language to Letti language for "consistency" ;) –Austronesier (talk) 18:06, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
I'm also good with either solutions. However, since now we know that "Letti" is the official name and "Leti" is the common name in English. IMO, we should mentioned both names in the article (islands, island and language). Ckfasdf (talk) 02:19, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

RFC on spelling of historical namesEdit

I notice this edit on my watchlist today by User:Ramsnet. I am not trying to challenge this particular move but I do wonder if we can discuss and possibly amend the wikiproject style guide to say that historical proper nouns may be an exception to always using modern Indonesian spelling (depending of course on what the common name is in English as well). To me this would mainly apply to people, companies, or obsolete places, especially ones that predate the independence era. I would suggest that it is roughly equivalent for an article title to have the name spelled historically or with a modern correction, and that an article doesn't have to be moved to "fix" it from one to the other just on principle alone--as with American and British English spellings on Wikipedia, that moving between them does not really serve much. Thoughts? --Dan Carkner (talk) 14:38, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Just to add that it also came up here in a discussion not too long ago and that I may have been alone on this perspective of things. But if there really is a policy to move personal names to modern spellings there is quite a long list out there and it may not always correspond to modern English usage (in some cases it does). --Dan Carkner (talk) 14:42, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Hey Dan, I'm quite new here so I didn't realise there was a style guide for pre-independence names as you said. I thought since the pages Sukarno, Suharto, Sudirman, etc. uses the new spelling, it is the consensus. The name "Cipto Mangunkusumo" is also used as a street name and a hospital in Jakarta, so I believe it is more commonly known.
I'd be down to change it back if there is a style guide to follow.
Cheers Ramsnet (talk) 16:56, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
No problem. And it's not up to me of course, just saying my opinion. I think you did OK in this case because as you say the name is pretty commonly seen under the modernized spelling, we get 20 times more google results from the modern spelling (maybe because of the place names too). If it was a lesser known historical figure I tend to use the old fashioned spelling especially if it appears in English language secondary sources with that spelling. The style guide can be found at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Indonesia-related articles and does indeed currently say to use the modernized spelling, although as we know with the spelling reforms in Indonesian it was not always applied to personal names during the lifetime of the person. --Dan Carkner (talk) 18:30, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Sabang or/and Weh Island?Edit

I initailly wanted to propose this for merge, but given the fact that merging requests has always been slow and that this merge is most likely quite controversial/complicated and need more discussion, I would like to ask other editors here first.

We have separate articles on Weh Island and Sabang, Aceh. And Sabang, for some reason, has its article with prefix "Aceh" on it.

So my question is:

  1. Since the entirety of Weh Island is basically under Sabang city, and using other similiar examples such as Tarakan and Ternate (both also does not only include their respective main island but also smaller islands surrounding it), and also that because Indonesian media often referred Weh Island as Sabang city instead of the island itself, shouldnt this mean Weh Island should be merged to the city article? If the city shouldnt be merged because that the city name differs from the island itself (even though media often got mixed Sabang and the island together), does this mean case like Tual should have separate article about Dullah Island? And since the city is centered on the island, it would be just same content mostly.
  2. Sabang is the main topic, so why the city needs ",Aceh" prefix?
  3. If nothing merged, where to draw the line so that its not the same content or just very identical content between Sabang city and Weh Island itself?

Nyanardsan (talk) 01:03, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

As short comment on point 2: Sabang is a dab, and at least the Sabang in India is more populous than Sabang in Aceh. So it will be hard to argue for the latter as primary topic without disambiguator. –Austronesier (talk) 17:32, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Van PemboewanEdit

Excuse me, will you all correct the Van Pemboewan translation? ▪ ꧋ꦩꦣꦪ Fazoffic ( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ) 23:56, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

I certainly can. But may I ask why this district is considered notable? Not trying to get rid of it I just don't see it explained yet. Perhaps if I look up some sources I will understand. --Dan Carkner (talk) 01:26, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
OK so. I have not touched your article yet. I am willing to copy edit it but first I think it needs to be focused and explained better. When I search Delpher for Pemboean or Pemboewan there are almost no results - just random mentions of a river in Borneo. That is not encouraging for something that is supposed to be a historically notable territory. Could I find evidence about that early Dutch territory under a different name perhaps? And then the article implies that it existed until 1946 - is this true? Why so few results on Delpher? Sorry, just trying to sort this out. --Dan Carkner (talk) 01:45, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
Maybe the content could be merged to Seruyan Regency instead? Nyanardsan (talk) 03:57, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
Although I am generally in favour of allowing articles on almost any obscure topic on Wikipedia, if we cannot find any sources about this historical territory that may be a better idea. Fazoffic, do you have any comments about this? What made you decide to create it? Can you see finding some sources to explain its notability/significance? --Dan Carkner (talk) 16:26, 29 June 2022 (UTC)