Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indonesia/Archive 4

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Suharto vs. Soeharto

This debate has resurfaced - indeed page move request has been filed. Please make any comments at Talk:Suharto#Name_Spelling. --Merbabu (talk) 20:23, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

i've retracted page move request temporarily. my vote is for Soeharto. reason can be seen at Talk:Suharto w_tanoto (talk) 20:28, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Incredible times waster and counter productive - alternative titles can be given in the body of articles and in the end there will always be a counter argument SatuSuro 23:29, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Title for Pontianak, Indonesia

Hi, i guess the title of Pontianak, Indonesia is too long. Shall we change the title maybe like Pontianak town or something?  CHJL  ^Discuss 11:43, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

There are standards for these sorts of things on Wikipedia - see Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(settlements). Specifically for Indonesia we already have our own standards for city naming - see Wikipedia:WikiProject_Indonesia/Naming_conventions. So, "Pontianak, Indonesia" is the correct name according to our existing standards. (Caniago (talk) 13:41, 8 January 2009 (UTC))

Indonesian killings of 1965–66

Hi All

I was about to put this article up for peer review, but thought I'd seek the counsel of the project first. Any thoughts on the article??? --Merbabu (talk) 11:02, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I'll take the unanimous response as a resounding "do it". ;-) --Merbabu (talk) 10:44, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I have issues with part of it but unable to give a detailed response in the short term :) SatuSuro 13:50, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Krakatoa

Had got too big - rather than wait for the silence here at the project page - went ahead and separated the 1883 explosion from the main article. Any feedback here or at the article talk page is appreciated SatuSuro 04:52, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Kelurahan stubs

I am proposing that all kelurahan (village) stubs found in the Jakarta area - such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duren_Sawit the list and linked kelurahan stubs be deleted on the basis that:-

• Kelurahan are likely in the short term to have WP:RS, WP:V, WP:N and probably other issues - some time back I removed red links to kelurahan names from other Jakarta kecamatan articles.

Also they too (Kecamatan) are in some cases unlikely ever to have adequate english based information that would warrant an article.

English wikipedia Indonesia project does not need the names of localities with separate articles if they are so small in size - if Id wikipedia does - that is not a precedent we need to follow.

Please comment here first - as I will put up a range of keluruhans found (please help and indicate here if you have found any similar to the Duren Sawit project) all in one go to afd in a week or so. SatuSuro 14:24, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Support the proposal. There simply isn't enough to say about these kelurahan. The articles in id Wikipedia merely list the population and the bordering kelurahan - hardly gripping stuff and not notable. In any case, who would write the articles? Not me! Davidelit (talk) 02:41, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Comment Disagree - while I agree with the sentiments raised here on the prevalence of uncited info and maintenance, I point out that the criteria for having an article is notability and not sources or ability/time to develop. I suggest these are roughly equivalent with suburbs of which there are hundreds of wikipedia articles for Sydney alone. This gets to the important issue of systematic bias. I suggest these articles are notable AND useful even if a lack of reliable sources and time means they mostly remain stubs. It is more than feasible that an English speaker wondering what kind of fruit duren sawit is will be glad to see en wp appear in google search results amongst all the Indonesian sites. A mere location and statement that it is a suburb/village is useful enough. I am happy to support removal of unsourced content but I think delete is a mistake. --Merbabu (talk) 03:25, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Comment The number of potential cross links between place names and names of things unrelated is a very awkward issue - adequate disambiguation is very important.

Utility is a false premise for existence of a stub in WP - unless there is a notability and or reliable source and verifiability - without that there is always the potential for more hoax and rubbish stubs - and for the number of kecamatan and kabupaten articles that are straight lifts from wp id where wp:rs is of no apparent concern - I would rather one good kabupaten article that identifies its sub-districts and locations, than ten stubs with no apparent purpose that clutter up and are never touched. SatuSuro 07:09, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Suburbs are fairly well-established as notable enough for wikipedia articles. There's even an article on a New Hampshire locality with a population of 0. As for RS, if the area exists then there's bound to be a reliable source. The issue is people haven't or cannot present them. An official govt list/website is enough to establish WP:V. The issue is not deletion of articles with dubious content, rather removing the dubious content from articles. THe question of utility is indeed irrelevant - it is notability. However, i only raised it as you said there was not enough english-based information around to warrant an article - my point being, a stub is fine. Lack of English source is certainly not a criteria for deletion. --Merbabu (talk) 07:20, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Comment Could I suggest that Gambir, Jakarta is a good example of how to go about things. It is a subdistrict (kecamatan) but its kelurahan are listed (satisfying the Google search criteria mentioned by Merbabu), as are sites of interest within the kecamatan (with links to articles). Is this the best way to include all the information without cluttering up Wikipedia with stubs? Davidelit (talk) 08:09, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gambir,_Jakarta&diff=242478709&oldid=145348495 - ok I was there in 2007 doing exactly that - removing links from names of kelurahans - they are unlikely ever to have significance - if they do - great stuff - create an article then - but to have probably a hundred or so articles with red links to such items - I say what I did in 2007 needs to be done again crawling through the eccentric items and unlinking names of villages. I simply see no purpose in keeping the red links or any stubs at all of villages anywhere in Indonesia if they are already listed in a higher level article - unless they have some big notability thing and - english sources as to that SatuSuro 09:32, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree red links should be wiped out. --Merbabu (talk) 09:38, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

List of Indonesian rock bands AfD

Hi! I just wanted to let you guys know that I just rewrote an article related to Indonesia that wasn't categorized for this project. The page was (and still is) up for deletion. I've placed a category marker on it. If anyone with more expertise in the area wants to run with it, go for it! SMSpivey (talk) 22:32, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

July 2006 Java earthquake under GA review

Hello there, the article July 2006 Java earthquake which falls under the auspices of this Wikiproject, has come under review as part of GA Sweeps and a number of problems have been identified and listed on the talk page. If these problems have not begun to be addressed by seven days from this notice, the article will be delisted from GA and will have to go through the WP:GAN process all over again to regain its status once improvements have been made. If you have any questions, please drop me a line.--Jackyd101 (talk) 14:13, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Indonesian bios at MfD

Input from persons familiar with Indonesia and it's languages would be much appreciated at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Khuntien Ngin/Rendy Marciano Thanks! Beeblebrox (talk) 23:42, 30 January 2009 (UTC) Responses have been made at the Afd discussion page - thanks for the notification SatuSuro 13:59, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Translation request

Hi, I've just noticed that the Indonesian wiki appears to have a very good article on Lansium domesticum. If anyone would be interested in translating to English, that would be great! Thanks, Calliopejen1 (talk) 00:08, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Generally, translating ID articles into EN is strongly discouraged around here as the Indonesia wikipedia has a poor standard of referencing. HOwever, this article appears to be a rare exception - referencing doesn't appear to be too bad at all. --Merbabu (talk) 00:17, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Is anyone actively translating this? If not, I may have a stab at it. --Sepa (talk) 20:13, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Milestone Announcements

All WikiProjects are invited to have their "milestone-reached" announcements automatically placed onto Wikipedia's announcements page. Milestones could include the number of FAs, GAs or articles covered by the project. No work need be done by the project themselves; they just need to provide some details when they sign up. A bot will do all of the hard work. Click here for more information or to sign your project up.

I thought this WikiProject might be interested. Ping me with any specific queries or leave them on the page linked to above. Thanks! - Jarry1250 ^{(t, c)} 21:58, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Homo floresiensis for Featured article review

I have nominated Homo floresiensis for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Thank you. Jan.Kamenicek (talk) 20:19, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

One question, which was raised at the review, is connected with reportedly missing bones of the fossilized H. floresiensis. One of the Indonesian anthropologists Teuku Jacob is said to take bones away without permission and not to return some of them back, as of 2005. Unfortunately, there is no mention in English written online media, what happened with the missing bones later, whether he has already returned them back or whether they remain lost. May I ask, if somebody could try to search for the information especially in the Indonesian language media? Thank you very much. Jan.Kamenicek (talk) 20:53, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Help needed

Please note we have an enthusiast for Miss Indonesia who is in the process of creating categories and articles - and it seems also intent on using the Indonesian language name - Puteri Indonesia - could any of our erstwhile Indonesian speakers think of the most appropriate english translation for the articles and category ? - if possible? Thanks SatuSuro 01:06, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I have proposed a move and started a discussion on the Puteri Indonesia talkpage. Davidelit (talk) 09:51, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Rulers of Indonesia

Hi we have a point where the project needs to find a good consistent and solid policy on the rulers of Indonesia.

Overnight

• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Sultanates_of_Indonesia&action=edit&redlink=1 has been mooted. I have not agged this suggestion yet as I feel there needs be to thorough discussion of issues arising.

But compare this with: -

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indonesian_monarchies

(which in my opinion needs Afd for a range of issues)

And for the residences we have

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_palaces#Royal_Palaces
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraton_(Indonesia)
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Royal_residences_in_Indonesia

and

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Indonesian_monarchs

and

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultans

which sometimes links or not with the local versions

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Sultans_of_Mataram
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Sultans_of_Aceh

I think as a project we need to be looking to standardise what we are looking at and what we use - and by what criteria we have asroyalty, monarchy, ruler, sultan, king in the project.

As it is it seems to be creating a credibility issue for the project in the number of disjunctures so far

SatuSuro 04:16, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Initial comments - The problem with categories or lists such as Indonesian monarchs or Heads of state of Indonesia (which includes presidents and monarchs) is that it sends out a confusing message (as well as promoting the nationalist myth) that Indonesia existed as a country before the Dutch created it. "Indonesian" implies they ruled over the modern day Indonesia (including Papua). Perhaps a better title would be Indonesian rulers (subdivided into kings, princes, sultans etc). In any case the List of Indonesian monarchies isn't much help - some of the links (eg Lala) are totally useless. I see the writer got bored with linking things before the end... I'll give it some more thought when I have more time. Davidelit (talk) 05:01, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

There are some broader organisational, verification, and definitional questions here, but in the meantime, i just went into the list of monarchies and removed anything that didn't have a page linked to it (and I might have kept the odd one that looked like it existed). If you look at the first three edits of the article, no references were provided so we can assume that all those removed were not added with verification. If people want to re-add them, they are welcome to look at the article history and provide a reliable source - I'll even help with formatting the in-line cites. --Merbabu (talk) 05:09, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Furthermore - an unsigned self reverted message here that Sultanates in Indonesia was changed to Sultanates in Southeast Asia - has no semblance of a solution to the issue - it is a project issue that needs to be dealt with by participating editors - to reach a consistent approach - changing a red link to another is not either discussing the matter or understranding the issues brought up above SatuSuro 05:01, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

More worms...

Some time back I refined the cats to include Category:Pre-colonial States of Indonesia. This was an improvement at the time, but not perfect. ie, some of these entities remained during the European colonial times - thus, I thought to change the category to "historical kingdoms/states of Indonesia". But a number of these are still existing. So if they're still existing, then are they actually States? Any suggestions? It might help to first look at both Category:Pre-colonial States of Indonesia and List of Indonesian monarchies. Perhaps states that are now extinct go to the historical category? gimana ya!?! --Merbabu (talk) 07:12, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Update

There is apossibility that we could do sub template of

anyone willing to help to do this for Javanese rulers etc? SatuSuro 09:03, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Feel free to do it. I'm more interested in fixing the problems listed above --Merbabu (talk) 09:23, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Indonesian killings of 1965–66

I was hoping to find pictures to add to this article. DOes anyone have any ideas? I know User:Davidelit has been particularly resourceful finding pics before. hint hint --Merbabu (talk) 10:38, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Problem is the era is one which copyright is still in force for photos from that time in many countries SatuSuro 13:55, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Javanese sultans

I think I have mentioned this before somewhere on this noticeboard.(apolgoies if I repeat myself sometimes)

When Indonesian editors touch their monarch/ruler articles the tendency is to want to put a range of honourifics in front of their rulers names out of respect - viz Hamengkubuwana - the feel the need to predicate the name with Sri Sultan. Very similar to the practice in the past in Islamic articles with the PBUH appellation. (which has since been resolved in WP:Islam MOS)

If I understand the general consensus to date in areas of the other parts of WP - then the rulers honourifics are not actually part of his name ( I have italicised for the moment those that I find rather than reverting) - and for that reason should never be included in a title of an article ?

I am posting this at WP Naming conventions page as well. Any feedback of any sort is appreciated SatuSuro 13:55, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

In general, we do not use honorific titles (although there are some rare exceptions, usually for disambiguation). What do English sources usually do for Javanese princes? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:55, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Usually leave all honourifics off - it is the Indonesian editors who feel that they are dishonouring their rulers/ancestors who insist on the Sri Sultan honourific added to text in articles SatuSuro 23:59, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Would it help to commend the present text of Hamengkubuwono I (short form in title, honorifics in first line?) You could point out that Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom doesn't have honorifics in the title either. We should remember that we are writing for barbarians in a language which doesn't even have pronouns of respect. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:12, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Sri and Sri Sultan has crept into a number of articles about princes and rulers aka monarchs aka kings aka sultans - they are slowly being excised SatuSuro 06:27, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Problem list

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_Indonesia

Is proving once again to be what the problems that are involved with this project and the problems of alllowing the continuation of WP:NOT editing practices with no apparent checking of it

• ad hoc addition (no order either alpha or otherwise
• red links with external links added (!@#!)

Is there any support in the process of making it a semi protected or protected article so that it can be cleaned up?

If there insufficient answers within reasonable time there might need to consider it to be either deleted or radically changed in format

Any response would be appreciated SatuSuro 04:14, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I cleaned it up, but got an almost instant reversion with no explanation. This problem was already mentioned on the article's talk page, and was cleaned up a long time ago by User:Indon. Such a messy list is against agreed project convention. --Merbabu (talk) 13:19, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

As the reverter has experience in other asian country projects and also at lists for deletion I have requested comment here - when he has time - I expect it might not be for a few days - but hey to even have a response here would be great I am tired of seeing my comments here and literally no response. Hoping we will see something by next week sometime I hope SatuSuro 14:17, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not asking for deletion, rather a cleanup. --Merbabu (talk) 14:22, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

So am I - but I am not sure what the rationale is in there in a need to keep adhoc redlinks SatuSuro 14:54, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Coordinators' working group

Hi! I'd like to draw your attention to the new WikiProject coordinators' working group, an effort to bring both official and unofficial WikiProject coordinators together so that the projects can more easily develop consensus and collaborate. This group has been created after discussion regarding possible changes to the A-Class review system, and that may be one of the first things discussed by interested coordinators.

All designated project coordinators are invited to join this working group. If your project hasn't formally designated any editors as coordinators, but you are someone who regularly deals with coordination tasks in the project, please feel free to join as well. — Delievered by §hepBot (Disable) on behalf of the WikiProject coordinators' working group at 05:42, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Bahasa indonesia speakers needed....

hi all, a new english wikipedia article on Moon of Pejeng has a page id:Bulan Pejeng that it would be wonderful to have translated and carried over. If it is big enough within 5 days it will be eligible for T:TDYK Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:33, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

expanded some; it could use a picture, which may be out there for free as this is commonly photographed by tourists. Cheers, Jack Merridew 08:27, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Given the language of the main reference in the id article, we need some Deutsch speakers as well as bahasa Indonesia :-) Davidelit (talk) 09:10, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Local usage/outside usage/older usage

The spectre of the spelling/translations/transcription of locality names has risen again at Candi Dasa, and interested if any wish to respond there and or here re the issue.

Tjampuan, or Campuan (ie West Ubud to some) comes to mind where old spelling is exploited for pseudo nostalgia - but conflated and mixed like Candidasa as local usage may have indeed problems of WP:V and or proof of usage - anyone with any others we might need to keep a watch on? SatuSuro 13:01, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Transfer issue

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Featured_articles_needing_translation_from_Indonesian_Wikipedia

the editor who created this category (which I have not tagged for the project on principle) has not come here - so here it is.

After repeated attempts to not have material copied over and general discouragement because of creep of lack of WP:RS, WP:V, poor quality and other issues (some of the most atrociously out of order articles in this project are copies from id project) we now have this category.

I await (and not holding breath under any circumstances) for the others who watch this space for comment.SatuSuro 00:12, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

'Shell script' (sankhalipi)

Hummingbird would like to know how the Candi of Indonesia, and transmission of Tantra and Vajrayana are related to 'shell script' (sankhalipi):

Short inscriptions in a peculiar highly ornate undeciphered script (Photo 2), known as ‘shell characters’ or sankhalipi because of a resemblance of the letters to a conch shell (sankha), are found at many archaeological sites in and around India and in Java and Borneo (Salomon 1983a, b). This script is often assumed to be a Brahmi derivative, and various claims to its decipherment have been made and dismissed. As Salomon observes, if it is Brahmi-derived, it has diverged so far from the normal pattern as to be effectively a new script family. Source: [1]

NB: Ganacakra transposed: Candi Sukuh

• Dr. R.K. Sharma. (1990). Studies in Shell Script (Ed.) (Delhi, 1990)

Aum Sri Ashtamangalam Hung Hri Ah
B9 hummingbird hovering ^{(talk • contribs)} 00:51, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

P.S.

The mantra: Om Mani Peme Hung Hri

As Bucknell, et. al (1986: p.15) opine, the complete Avalokiteshvara Mantra includes a final Hrīh (hrih, pronounced "heRee"), which is iconographically depicted in the central space of the syllabic mandala as seen in the ceiling decoration of the Potala Palace.
PPS. Hrih is secret, inwardly evocated or non-vocalized as the Anahata th[R]ough resonant is 'unstruck'. Ah

A reminder

Want to keep track of the Project and its disparate range of changes?

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:AlexNewArtBot/IndonesiaSearchResult
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:RecentChangesLinked/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Indonesia/List_of_all_articles
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:RecentChangesLinked/List_of_Indonesia-related_topics
4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:RecentChangesLinked/List_of_basic_Indonesia_topics

and the new item discussed above

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Indonesia
  • the section at the bottom of the page - 8 Subscriptions and bots and project monitoring below this line

Please note that this range of links are each partial and in no way comprehensive due the large number of articles as yet 'unclaimed', 'unassessed' or as yet not allocated to the project - please help the project with:-

1. Feedback about whether any of these lists can be improved and how
2. Suggestions as to whether the project would benefit from any other bots

Any comment would be appreciated as to how to improve regular monitoring of the project and its contents. SatuSuro 03:53, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Notability and new stubs

Recently some non english speaking editors have loaded stubs in rather appalling condition into WP en - either in poorly translated english in some cases about their particular village - and some very considerate non Indonesia project editors have been acting in good faith and rescuing the poor little stubs.

As a consequence we have the prospect of mirroring WP id - which has one line unsourced stubs about almost every village and regency in Indonesia.

It really is time that we need to ascertain where the garbled stub creep is checked or ratified one way or other.

As we also have the prospect of every named island being added as well.

Anyone with any idea of how we deal with such items - do we need to see whether other projects have policies about a stub for every location? (We are not a gazzetteer the last time I looked, but...) - as for all the other unanswered points above this one I await not with much of an expectation of a reply SatuSuro 08:41, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

if deletion is not an option, then we can just redirect to an appropriate article, or more probably a list. --Merbabu (talk) 10:45, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Speaking as the nominal king of the Evil Deletionist^® Cabal, I'm in favor of articles on every Regency and Kecamatan; every Desa could be problematic. Is there any village or town in Oz that doesn't have an article yet? See Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias. Cheers, Jack Merridew 10:59, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

There are some suburbs I know without articles, but not many. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:12, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Wow guys thanks for turning up - you werent expected :) SatuSuro 12:40, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

My point is that Regencies, subdistricts, and towns — unlike TV Episodes and Characters — are inherently notable. ( now let's see who shows up ;) Cheers, Jack Merridew 14:12, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Template:History of Indonesia‎

An editor has changed the history of Indonesia navigation banner to a standardised banner claiming "wikipedia-wide" consensus that all such banners must use a standard. I believe the new design is inferior to the existing banner. I have also requested that evidence of this consensus that all banners must use the template. WHile there's a lot to be said for standardisation, it is by no means obligatory particularly when the new style is inferior to the distinctive style that we had developed. I would like to hear the project's thoughts on this. --Merbabu (talk) 11:43, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

I have requested the editor to lay out the issue here - so we at least have a centralised point of discussion SatuSuro 11:47, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Removal of gamelan references

Please see Talk:List of gamelan ensembles in the United States, and comment, if you wish. Badagnani (talk) 02:47, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Islands of Indonesia

List of islands of Indonesia

There are at rough count at least 10+ vandal placed hoax names in the list - has anyone who ever reads this an idea of an online or printed source that could eliminate the rubbish?

Any clues as to an inventory/gazzetteer source for checking would be appreciated as some of the more obvious idiot names are embarrassing for the project to have them unchallenged for so long SatuSuro 22:52, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Which islands are hoaxes? As with any list, only items with an article should be on the list, but the island/item can be verified in the article. --Merbabu (talk) 23:45, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

PS - oh wow. What a shocker that list is. Perhaps we need to reconsider what the purpose of such a list is and restructure it accordingly. If we just list anything, then there are potentially 17,000 entries (or is it that only 6,000 islands have names?). That's still way too many entries. I note Category:Islands of Indonesia is gradually being resorted by island group. Is this a good thing? Restructuring that way means the category no longer provides a by-island list. --Merbabu (talk) 23:51, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Checking a few issues - a whole lot of redlink and grey link names in the list need to be removed unless they link to an existing article - the potential for fraud/hoax is too high otherwise.

Organisation of the islands into subcategories will have to follow either

1. Island groups named after larger well known islands that have articles

or

1. Islands that lie within a particular admin region

that way there is no problem with having 15 islands with the same name - as they will disambiguate to the region or major island:

e.g. Pulau Timor, Bali, Pulau Timor, Roti and so on.

Please help remove all islands that have no source in a major article (ok here is the rub - D island might be in A island group - and the A article will have D named - there is no reason why D needs to be listed in the major list - unless there is an article)

Hope it is all clear - any problems please ask SatuSuro 05:24, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Another issue is that many island groups are over-categorised - with islands of indonesia, archipelagoes of indonesia, and province name and islands of name - if the islands of name is already in the islands and archipelago categories - there is no need whatsoever to include the parent category on the same page SatuSuro 05:37, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Taufik Akbar

I found Taufik Akbar as a WP:PROD as an unsourced BLP earlier today. I could find references, but I find maybe editors of this project might be at a better position to source this article. Agathoclea (talk) 09:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Gamelan creep

For anyone who hasnt got any gamelan articles on their watch lists - Indonesian project editors might be interested (or not) in the fate of: -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_gamelan_ensembles_in_the_United_States_(2nd_nomination)

and Gamelan_outside_Indonesia

for a range of reasons including WP:AGF, WP:Civility I make no further comment.

cheers SatuSuro 15:12, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

update

The circus continues at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_gamelan_ensembles_in_the_United_States_(2nd_nomination)

and we may indeed face modification of the Gamelan articles due to the nature of the Afd - I would ask fellow Indonesian project eds to put any of or all of the Gamelan tree on watch in the face of some attitude being shown at the Afd.

There is no sign of any comprehension as to towards how regional WP projects might organise or manage articles and categories.

• Gamelan

  Gamelan albums

  Campursari

  Compositions for gamelan

  Gamelan ensembles and genres

  Gamelan instruments

  Gamelan theory

  Gamelan musicians

Any serious incursions on the rather delicate nature of most of the articles in this tree will probably mean that a significant section of the Indonesian project is under threat from editors who are showing little sign of anything but involvement of a WP:BATTLE at the Afd. SatuSuro 06:21, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

List of National Heroes of Indonesia

I have just carried out a <ahem> heroic review of this page removing redlinks, correcting dates, adding brief bios where there were none and deleting flagrant POV "heroes". If anybody thinks any of the additions or modifications are needed, please feel free to do or comment on:

• I think I have weeded out all the non-real heroes, but there may be more - zap 'em
• Write articles where there are none - duh!
• Reordering of some names - perhaps the entries under "Raden" should be under their given names?
• Did I overlink?
• Should every entry have a tiny Indonesian flag after their name?
• Is it worth making a table with name, dates, notes (ie why a hero) and year they were officially made a National Hero? (If so, does anybody have a bot or macro to do it, to save on typing?)

All suggestions welcomed. By the way, who have guessed there are two Sutomos? The things you learn.... Davidelit (talk) 17:29, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Also titles and honorifics. I know some of you are a bit fussy over this issue. I have prioritized completion of the list over consistency in this regard <slap on wrist> so feel free to wield the delete key. Davidelit (talk) 17:34, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Re honorifics - no big deal in the list - its the sneaking in extra honorifics on the actual articles about them that are the annoying part - in a list there is the opportunity to give them the extra bits that the ips seem to want to insert SatuSuro 04:52, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Nice work David. That list has been a problem for a long time. --Merbabu (talk) 09:31, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Sirih leaves

Some time ago, a new user created the article Sirih leaves. It was tagged for speedy deletion one minute later, citing CSD A1. I removed the speedy tag since I didn't feel the article fit the criteria. I tried to do some web-based research, which convinced me the article was a good faith effort. But I have a problem doing anything about it, largely due to not speaking Indonesian. Using google translator, it looked to me as though the source added by the creator did say what the article creator claims. But... Could somebody who has a clue please look at this...? I am way out of my depth. Dendlai (talk) 09:27, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I have proposed it be merged into Betel, see Talk:Betel#Merger_proposal. Davidelit (talk) 12:28, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Speedy deletes

Can catch by suprise - and here is one nominated http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaringan_Islam_Liberal

I am in no way suggesting it is anywhere a 'good article' but if articles like this just disappear without comment - the project can be effectively undermined by the nature of speedies - they pop up - there is no general conversation at the project level - and non project eds can no doubt find holes in a whole range of WP Indonesia articles - but I do not agree that they do it without some general project level discussion - we have much worst examples that have escaped the knife to date - whether as a project we have some sense of whether some articles are of a particular standard or not needs to be offered to the eds who locate and tag these articles. SatuSuro 13:31, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Ok it has been reverted (the speedy item) before I could get a message to fellow project eds - but any suggestions as to where we defend articles or not - and which criteria we might deal with here - any comments would be appreciated. SatuSuro 13:49, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Truce term

Can anybody help me please with what Indonesian children use as a truce term. A truce term is a word used to call a temporary halt to a game for respite for something like discussing the rules or tying a shoelace etc? Fainites ^barleyscribs 21:24, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Following some original research (asking parents), it seems that there isn't a special word. Kids just say "tunggu", which means "wait". Davidelit (talk) 07:58, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Fainites ^barleyscribs 15:29, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

wd'eedfk'ek —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.211.163.22 (talk) 03:40, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Could you translate that for me? Fainites ^barleyscribs 07:39, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

That was just random vandalism, he/she/it wasn't answering your question. As for your question, I am unsure whether there is one but I seem to remember saying something which isn't tunggu but it has been so many years I can't recall it. I will inform you if it ever goes back to my head. --Hamster X 16:26, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

I thought it might be but best to be polite, just in case! Maybe you will wake up tomorrow with your head full of ancient truce terms.Fainites ^barleyscribs 19:44, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

If they are using mother tongue - unlikely to be bahasa indonesia term - more likely mother tongue like sundanese or javanese or balinese - or their local languages that they use first - unlikely very few areas have bahasa indonesia as the first language SatuSuro 05:03, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

For example, apparently Javanese kids say "ceng", meaning 'stop' or 'wait'. Davidelit (talk) 05:50, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Bilateral relations creep

For those interested - the Indonesian deletions page is not being updated by a range of AFD's occurring in the current wikipedia wide 'bilateral relations war' which is happening - for those who might like to see a good example:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Bulgaria–Indonesia_relations

well worth checking are the comments - a good current 'take' on the current state of the issue

For anyone who does not watch the Project page article alert - one can see the general trend: -

Proposed deletion

• 8 May 2009 – PROD tag removed from Bulgaria–Indonesia relations (talk).
• 2 May 2009 – PROD tag removed from Indonesia–Serbia relations (talk).

Articles for deletion

• 10 May 2009 – Indonesia–Serbia relations (talk) has been deleted; see discussion.
• 7 May 2009 – Bulgaria–Indonesia relations (talk) nominated for deletion by Biruitorul; see discussion.
• 6 May 2009 – Estonia–Indonesia relations (talk) has been deleted; see discussion.

(above copied from article alert section of project page) SatuSuro 14:24, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Democratic Party

Hi, I was looking at the article on the Democratic Party and trying to understand its ideology. Speaking as someone with very limited knowledge of Indonesian politics is very difficult to understand what this party stands for; the page on Pancasila is too general. Is it leftist, right wing, popularist, commununist, or something entirely different? Thanks, YeshuaDavid (talk) 13:45, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, you've hit the nail on the head there. Nobody seems to understand its ideology because it doesn't really have one. The party was established as a vehicle for Susulo Bambang Yudhoyono to become president, and the party's election campaign was built around the image of SBY as president. Actually coming up with policies might have alienated voters who did't agree with them, hence the bland and vague ideological basis. To be fair, the 2008 Political Parties Law doesn't help as is obliges parties to support the state ideology and form (Pancasila and a unitary - non-federal - republic) and bans them from questioning either of the above, and from promoting communist teachings. For an example of blandness at its best, the Democratic Party vision, according to its website, is <takes deep breath>"...with the public to play a role in realizing the noble aim of the people of Indonesia to achieve enlightenment in life in a nation that is independent, united, sovereign fair and prosperous with strong support for the ideals of Nationalism, Humanism and Internationalism on the basis of belief in Almighty God in a new world order that is peaceful, democratic and prosperous", which to be honest could probably be applied to any political party anywhere in the world... Hope this clarifies more than it bores! Davidelit (talk)

Thanks for that - and may non indonesian editors realise that labels so easily applied for the rather odd notion that parties must fit into the universal tags of left right or out the door - and might be continue to be fascinated by the unique nature of indonesian political history SatuSuro 14:37, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks too, extremely interesting. I can see too how difficult it would be to categorise that stance. YeshuaDavid (talk) 21:47, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Proposal for a 200-WikiProject contest

A proposal has been posted for a contest between all 200 country WikiProjects. We're looking for judges, coordinators, ideas, and feedback.

The Transhumanist 00:39, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Politics of Indonesia Template

Can I suggest a tidy-up and reorganization of the Politics of Indonesia Template to reflect the fact the Indonesian government has a "separation of powers" system? In particular, the judicial branch is not in the current version. Perhaps the template could be divided into collapsible sections like Template:Politics of India - but I can't figure out how to do it :-) Any thoughts? Here's my initial stab at it. Davidelit (talk) 14:15, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Thinking further, I zapped the foreign aid section - not entirely relevant and the article has multiple issues anyway. Davidelit (talk) 05:56, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. No comments at all. If nobody objects, I will be bold and change it in a day or so. Davidelit (talk) 14:30, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Thats what is great about this project sometimes - no one seems to be here:) the main principle is that you have alerted the change here = go ahead and do it! SatuSuro 00:38, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

{{politbox|country=Indonesia|image=Garuda Pancasila, Coat Arms of Indonesia.svg|size=110|title=Indonesia}}
|align=left|
*[[Pancasila (politics)|Pancasila]]
*[[Constitution of Indonesia|Constitution]]
----
'''Government'''
----
*'''Executive Branch'''
**[[President of Indonesia|President]] ([[List of Presidents of Indonesia|List]])
**[[Vice President of Indonesia|Vice President]] ([[List of Vice Presidents of Indonesia|List]])
**[[Cabinet of Indonesia|Cabinet]]
*'''Legislative Branch'''
**[[People's Consultative Assembly]]
**[[Regional Representative Council]]
**[[People's Representative Council]]
*'''Judicial Branch'''
**[[Indonesian Supreme Court|Supreme Court]]
**[[Constitutional Court of Indonesia|Constitutional Court]]
**[[Indonesian Judicial Commission|Judicial Commission]]
----
*[[Elections in Indonesia|Elections]]
**[[Indonesian legislative election, 2009|Parliament, 2009]]
**[[Indonesian presidential election, 2009|President, 2009]]
*[[List of political parties in Indonesia|Political parties]]
----
*[[Administrative divisions of Indonesia|Administrative divisions ]]
**[[Provinces of Indonesia|Provinces]]
**[[Regencies of Indonesia|Regencies]]
**[[Cities of Indonesia|Cities]]
**[[Subdistricts of Indonesia|Subdistricts]]
**[[Village (Indonesia)|Villages]]
*[[Government Administration in Indonesia|Regional government]]
*[[Foreign relations of Indonesia|Foreign relations]]
{{politicsboxend|country=Indonesia|}}

Aceh

Every now and then in various lists of provinces and locations - the longer Indonesian name for Aceh creeps in again - anyone with any thoughts of consistency in the project?

It seems that all other provinces are found in correct english usage - I dont see why this proivjnce should have its Indonesian name replace Aceh. Feedback appreciated SatuSuro 13:19, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Category:Subdsitricts of Kepahiang Regency

Please could someone take a look at this? The whole category chain that leads to it seems a bit jumbled too. thisisace (talk) 22:57, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that SatuSuro 00:07, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Politics template

Please note that a change on the Politics of Indonesia template has been reverted: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3APolitics_of_Indonesia&diff=294396658&oldid=291753309

What I would appreciate is any possible discussion about this changes from any other editors who might chance on this edit - the issue in wikipedia process is the general consensus as to the effective reflection of a project based decision - rather than an individual ones. As a consequence I am not necessarily focusing on the change itself but more as to how the project participants might consider the process of how we reach a decision as to the effectiveness of the templates in design.

Please leave a message - thanks SatuSuro 23:12, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I noted this change yesterday, and was waiting for someone to start this discussion. i admit, the image is rather attractive, but in my humble opinion, it is not the place. First, it is NOT the coat of arms of Indonesia (while of course, it incorporates the coat of arms). Look at this: [2] and [3]. All of them uses the official coat of arms without any "gadgets". Second, it's in Indonesian. It should be written "Republic of Indonesia", and the translation of bhinneka should be in English. Remember, this is en wiki. My vote is to use the official coat of arms w.tanoto-soegiri (talk) 07:57, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I do not understand the benefit of the new picture. Until such time that the benefit is described, and a consensus to change is reached, the existing template - which in my mind is superior - should remain. --Merbabu (talk) 08:04, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I can't understand why the official symbol of Indonesia should be changed into a foreign language propaganda image. I support the idea of keeping it as it is unless there is consensus to change it. Davidelit (talk) 09:39, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you - within one day we have so far a group of responses that suggest the earlier design is more appropriate - any other comments from others at this stage? SatuSuro 14:59, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Publications by SBY...

Would be good to get opinion about this. PLease respond at talk page linked. thanks. --Merbabu (talk) 08:30, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Resource cleanup

Hello all! Just to let you know that I have cleaned up the WikiProject's Resources page by updating dead links and adding a new one on Jakarta Globe. I should also note that unless I'm mistaken, apparently the journal Indonesia is now all free from volume 1. Each volume in All Volumes have a PDF link. So start digging those historical figure obituaries and whatnot! =P I noticed this when I was creating the George McTurnan Kahin article. Cheers! Arsonal (talk) 08:07, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Airport template

We have an almost english free editor (please correct me if the editor is capable of responding, or wishes to do so in any way) creating extra airports in the Indonesia airport template that are neither civil passenger airports, or necessarily regularly utilised airports - I always was under the delusion that in general airport templates were for ones utilised by regular commercial civil passenger services only and that non civil and non regular use airports/runways do not necessarily come under the banner...

Please someone put some light on this one otherwise we might have every runway/landing strip in the template - and when I think of the worst case scenario - of abandoned world war landing strips that have existed historically in Indonesia we are going towards the template to end all templates. SatuSuro 12:20, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to go on a whim and say that airports with IATA codes are valid additions to the template. There are actually not that many of them. Feel free to cross check with this list under Indonesia. Arsonal (talk) 09:52, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that = good advice and easy to keep track SatuSuro 11:45, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Anyone?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:AlexNewArtBot/IndonesiaSearchResult

Needs regular checking - the most embarrassing and idiotic edits need tagging etc - please help - as I am about to take an extended break and all whom I have asked offline seem disinterested in this task - it is important for the credibility of this project which wavers when new articles are created with abandon but no sense of what WP en is all about! SatuSuro 03:15, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Sheikh Yusuf and Goa/Java naming?

Hi. I started the article on Sheikh Yusuf, a 17th century Indonesian who was responsible for establishing Islam in the Cape, South Africa. Reading different sources, some clain he was born in Makassar, while others claim he was born in Goa. Reading the sources carefully and given the existence of Macassar, Western Cape it seems the first statement is correct. The name of Goa also comes up in a different context in the story of Sheikh Yusuf's life. Now clearly "Goa" cannot be referring to the city of Goa in India, so I was thinking perhaps Goa is/was an alternate name for Java? I'd like some clarification on this so that I can make more sense of the references (they are linked in the article). Thanks for your help! Zunaid 15:59, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually, Goa being an alternative to Java would be incorrect. There is a Gowa in Sulawesi that is within the proximity of Makassar. A search through the WorldCat catalog using "yusuf" and "gowa" will confirm this. This is most likely what they intend as "Goa" and "Gowa" are pronounced exactly the same in Indonesian. Arsonal (talk) 21:17, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Language help

Please see query at Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Language#Indonesian_assistance, --Soman (talk) 15:08, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

GA Reassessment of Suharto

Suharto has been nominated for a good article reassessment. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to good article quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status will be removed from the article. Reviewers' concerns are here. --Malleus Fatuorum 14:34, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Portal:Indonesia

Indonesia has been nominated for a featured portal review. Portals are typically reviewed for one week. During this review, editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the portal from featured status. Please leave your comments and help us to return the portal to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, portals may lose its status as featured portals. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. — Kpalion^(talk) 13:32, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Can you please do a wikiproject on the regencies/cities?

In our country, there is this successful wikiproject which puts every province, municipality and city in the Philippines, with maps included. Can Indonesia rival it?121.1.37.145 (talk) 13:41, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Watampone

I can't speak bahasa, anyone want to translate information from the indonesian wikipedia article and/or add some references and info from the web? Geography is not my forte..Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:36, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

GAN for Indonesian legislative election, 2004

I have nominated Indonesian legislative election, 2004 as a good article. If someone is willing to review it, please go ahead. Arsonal (talk) 01:17, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

For your interest: Cornell Paper

I am developing an article on the document known as the Cornell Paper (since I am at Cornell). I expect it will help clear up some of the mystery as to the actual content of the first comprehensive study on the 30 September Movement and be of some value to any related articles as well. If you have any general suggestions, please feel free to make recommendations. Cheers! Arsonal (talk) 07:46, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Move proposal for Post-Suharto era

I am restarting the move proposal of the article here. Arsonal (talk) 07:14, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Sampangan article

I have added a couple of bits of information to the above article (which is currently up on AfD), but as most of the references I could find are in Indonesian, I can't do too much (Google Translate will only do so much!). Could someone from this WP please have a look at it (and make sure that I've translated terms, etc, correctly) and perhaps add more informations using references from Google News, Google Scholar and Google Books?

Thanks, -- PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 11:45, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Adam Air Flight 172

This article is currently under review as part of GA Sweeps and is currently "On Hold". It needs some attention to bring it upto GA-standard (see talk:Adam Air Flight 172/GA1). Pyrotec (talk) 14:15, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

New article - Nasakom...

I created this new stub as there is conjecture as to it's meaning on Indonesian killings of 1965-66. Could the project please review the editing this October on this article. thanks --Merbabu (talk) 00:40, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the notice. I'll try to dig up some sources later. It's also probably worth considering to create the absent article on Sukarno's Marhaenism philosophy. Arsonal (talk) 04:07, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Indonesia scholars

I'm trying to get a sense of which notable scholars of Indonesia have and don't have their own articles. If you think someone is missing, feel free to add them (in alphabetical order by last name) and leave a note saying so. Arsonal (talk) 10:40, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

• Benedict Anderson (1936–)
• Frederick Bunnell (?)
• Robert Cribb (?)
• Harold Crouch (?)
• John M. Echols (?)

• Robert Elson (?)
• Herbert Feith (1930–2001)
• Clifford Geertz (1926–2006)
• George McTurnan Kahin (1918–2000)

• Daniel Lev (1933–2006)
• Ruth McVey (?)
• Anthony Reid (?)
• M. C. Ricklefs (1943–)

Tip of the iceberg - same number of dutch scholars if not double - about half the same french and others as well - this is a very anglocentric list as it is SatuSuro 18:36, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Definitely agree with your statement as my knowledge about individual scholars is not very extensive because I'm new to this area as well. Hence the request for additions. Arsonal (talk) 04:18, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Peaceful/Harmonius/Tolerant versus Sectarian/Ethnic/Regional issues

Hi long time no speak here - we have an issue at the main Indonesian article - which suggests that the issue of generalizations in lead paragraphs might or might not have any semblance of truth in either a contemporary or a historical sense.

I would be very interested in any long standing editors comments on this as to whether such comments should or not be in lead paragraphs - and to whether the impossibility of summarising 50 years of regional conflicts and ethnic issues actually negates any mention in the first place? SatuSuro 03:03, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Please discuss here (I moved the whole discussion there). --Merbabu (talk) 07:41, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

repeated here (reason for posting here partially explained

First things - this has ramifications throughout project and I personally I have aversions to be locked into discussions at a large 'main' article talk page - as few editors venture into the area unless they are involved in discussions specifically about the way a subject is being treated.

I believe that any assertions - either that a country is x or b or y - regardless of the quality or connotation - needs qualification in the body of the article if the subject has been raised in the lead - the actual issue does not have a single article out there in the Indonesian project - and it was certainly a commonly accepted issue amongst historians of the old order that there was not one day of peace throughout the country - for the whole of the nation for the whole reign of Sukarno - there were separatist or regional conflicts and or law and order issues as a constant. I cannot make any specific claims for contemporary Indonesia - however I do not think the issue was one of sometimes or isolated events in early years of Indonesia as a nation. The problem is in such a general article as this one (and why I wanted to have conversation about this at the project page and not here) the issue of the problems maybe needs a separate article to give either a timeline of separatist movements activity and other issues of conflict - to have effect of either refuting the generalization or showing a good outline of the events that make the assertion a valid one.

Thanks to those who have joined in - at least the conversation so far seems to be going somewhere SatuSuro 3:53 pm, Today (UTC+8) Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Indonesia"

In my experience, the Indonesia page has a lot more exposure than this project page. --Merbabu (talk) 08:00, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Jakarta-related geographical stubs

I am absolutely shocked to see that articles:

• North, East, South and West Jakarta

and their subdistricts, are written in the worst possible way of writing a stub. Writing stubs are fine to me, but in this case, someone might take it into the AFDs and get it deleted. How do we help these articles, so that they are kept and expandable? 7107Lecker ^{Tischgespräch, außerdem...} 05:30, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Do you really know how wikipedia works - your message suggests not. Regarding a number of issues

How is a stub worst possible - throughout wikipedia many projects have minimal stubs.

The Indonesian project has a very large number of minimal unreferenced location stubs - that is not a reason, and never will be for locations to be taken to AFD. There are hundreds of stubs in this project and many others that have never been expanded beyond their original state - so shock is pointless, absolute - even more so.

To help requires a significant degree of literacy in materials about Indonesian locations and offline expertise to track down written materials - it is likely that most online sources would not qualify as WP:RS. It is unlikely that any of the existing currently active editors who work on the WP Indonesian project have either the time, interest or capacity to expand the stubs that you mention.

So best leave them alone - specially if you do not have access to materials SatuSuro 06:04, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

(You forgot Central Jakarta.) If you put these through AfD, they will likely survive per common outcomes. Article quality doesn't imply survivability in AfD. There are articles better written than these that get deleted every day. Arsonal (talk) 06:35, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. Whether a subject is notable enough for an article is judged on its, well, notability. AfD is thus based on notability, not article quality. --Merbabu (talk) 13:07, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

It is notable, but where are the sources? 7107Lecker ^{Tischgespräch, außerdem...} 09:44, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Map notice

Many thanks to Rochelimit for creating the new Jakarta map. This will help a lot in creating location maps for the city. I would also like to bring the attention of mapmakers to Cybermap.co.id, which has detailed maps of a few large cities, which will help in mapping the various kecamatans and kelurahans. PS. If you need any photos or information while I'm in Jakarta, feel free to hit me up. Arsonal (talk) 20:50, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Dutch Images

There are 35,000 or so images from Tropenmuseum available on commons help is needed to sort categorise and most importantly use them. Gnangarra 05:49, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

35,000 needing categorising? Where does one start? --Merbabu (talk) 06:28, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Is there any way of mass-converting the category names into English? I'd be interested in sorting through the military-related images, but don't speak a word of Dutch. Nick-D (talk) 06:39, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

There are some very interesting pictures there and some that appear quick significant, but, as you say, we don't know... --Merbabu (talk) 06:52, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Speak for yourself - I have already put one at Imogiri - the dutch translation was not necessary in my case - I would suspect there is no quick and easy method of translation SatuSuro 06:58, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

I just tried Google Translate, and it seems to work fairly well. Nick-D (talk) 07:03, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Well thats good as the dutch colonial era military history is badly in need of some articles and items for this project - it is as if it didnt exist - in this project lists anyways SatuSuro 07:06, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm - it's harder than it looks to match up pics. --Merbabu (talk) 07:15, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

There are tons of useful photos of the Indonesian Revolution. Nick-D (talk) 07:20, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

OK - where? That's an article I'd like to work on further - I'm not getting anywhere with other articles today. --Merbabu (talk) 07:23, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

here. A lot of them have already been categorised into the Indonesian National Revolution cat. Nick-D (talk) 07:40, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

It's a monumental task indeed, but take it one step at a time. I found some useful images on Dutch East Indies Governor-Generals a couple of weeks ago. Chinese Indonesian also has images now thanks to this new collection. Sometimes the captions are a bit vague, so I encourage you to expand on them if you have more information. Arsonal (talk) 07:59, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

TV and Radio articles

This is a perennial that sinply does not go away - IP's come along and add long lists of programs, channels and other things to these articles - just in case anyone is watching this page - are there any thoughts of what is allowable and not within the scope of this project - I feel that we need WP:RS and some recognisable pattern and order if they are to stay - at the moment long lists added seem to have no redeeming features SatuSuro 10:28, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

In principal, I don't think they add any value - they are mostly crap to be blunt. It's not what wikipedia is about. However, from a more practical approach, is fighting this where our limited time and energies should be directed? what do the page view statistics say? I don't have all the answers - this is much a question, as it is a suggestion. --Merbabu (talk) 10:39, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

So far:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Television_stations_in_Indonesia has 33 items
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Television_in_Indonesia has 8 items and 4 sub categories

we have gems like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Master_%28Indonesia_TV_series%29 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akademi_Fantasi_Indosiar

I do not think there is a time and energy issue as much as some need to be gone - simple as that - WP N, WP V and WP NOT are issues for the whole of wikipedia I dont see why we have to carry stuff just because some enterprising IP eds want to add them without any knowledge of WP en issues SatuSuro 13:54, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

New stub Jambi Uprising

Couldn't find the Jambi Uprising covered on en.wiki, so GoogleTranslated the lede from nl.wiki. Just a heads-up in case anyone is interested in this event. MatthewVanitas (talk) 05:23, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

New Edits - Indonesian military history - Part 2

Individuals names have been left off this list -

• Kerinci Expedition ‎
• Pasoemah Expedition ‎
• Palembang Bovenlanden Expeditions ‎
• Expedition to the West Coast of Borneo ‎
• Batoe Iliq ‎
• Aceh Medal (1873-1874) ‎
• Pedir Expedition ‎
• Ottoman expedition to Aceh ‎ - not a new stub - been around needs checking anyways
• 2003–2004 Indonesian offensive in Aceh ‎
• Samalanga ‎
• Expedition against the Chinese in Montrado ‎
• Edi Expedition ‎
• Taman Siswa - could do with some useful cross checking with Ki_Hajar_Dewantara

There may be more that get added by the alex bot in coming days - not sure SatuSuro 00:39, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

New Edits - Indonesian military history

As there are multiple issues - please could we have centralised AGF discussion here - thanks

The following are as found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:AlexNewArtBot/IndonesiaSearchResult there is a later lot being added tommorow

First Batch

• Pemoeda - tagged for deletion - duplicates existing material - either redirect or merge possible
• Chinezenmoord - re-named Batavia massacre - suggest incorporation into Chinese Indonesian so that it can later be expanded into my planned History of Chinese Indonesians article (Arsonal (talk) 09:29, 12 January 2010 (UTC))
• Landrentestelsel
• Negara - tagged for deletion - duplicates existing material already at United_States_of_Indonesia
• Pelopor
• Star for Loyalty and Merit
• Poenale sanctie
• Tempo Doeloe - made redirect for Dutch East Indies
• First Division 7 December
• Bandjermasin War
• Kora-kora - OK
• Zwarte Hollanders
• Soemba Mission
• Second Bone Expedition - suggested merge to Bone state
• Indonesian Political Federation
• Soetardjo Petition
• Chinese uprising in Mandor, Borneo
• Second Padri War - made redirect for Padri War
• First Padri War - made redirect for Padri War
• Great East - no WP RS in original dutch article - and some odd ref from 1911 britannica - challenged

* First Aceh Expedition - POV title from Dutch perspective - material already exists at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aceh_War#The_Aceh_War

• Second Aceh Expedition - POV title - same as above

 Done merged into Aceh War SatuSuro 13:43, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

At CSD

• Category:Aceh War to Category:Aceh War - it is requested that this goes to proper CFD discussion as there is inadequate material in any material about Aceh in this project as to a clear interpretation and distinction in the interpretations of War/Wars/Expediditions - it is becoming quite a mess withdrawn objection - found very low plural usage - SatuSuro 13:43, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

This simply confirms the age old wisdom of this particular WikiProject - transfers from other wiki projects without adequate forewarning always comes to grief SatuSuro 12:13, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history#Tons of stubs for Dutch East Indies milhist. I would recommend splitting out an article on the Aceh War. That section within the Aceh article is already getting large. We'll the merge the two expedition articles into it. This will make it a much more focused article for incorporation when we eventually create Military history of the Dutch East Indies and Military history of Indonesia. Arsonal (talk) 12:40, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Support - that sounds good, but I have seen Aceh Wars in use as well- we will need a CFD process to deal with the issue of singular and plural SatuSuro 13:22, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

That might just be a matter of perspective whether it's one continuous conflict or a series of small ones. Perang Aceh suggests it's one conflict, but we'll check with English sources as well. Arsonal (talk) 13:35, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Please consider adding material to the main TNI/ABRI page before setting up a new Military history of Indonesia page - that page could use a lot more context and material. Regards Buckshot06 (talk) 08:23, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Great East

Great East is my favourite. --Merbabu (talk) 13:56, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

It is a duplicate article - just havent found the one that I did for the same subject - it was about 2 years ago - still searching SatuSuro 13:57, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

State of East Indonesia??? --Merbabu (talk) 14:10, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

OK wrong again - thanks for that - there is no fit - smells like construct from translation - no easy find on clusty or oggle for that one - and with not a WP RS in sight rather difficult to fix either way SatuSuro 14:16, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Moluccas are often named by the Dutch the "Great East" (Groote Oost) from a very dubious online source suggesting that was in the 1911 britannica - the dutch wikipedia article has no sources, and the actual term groote oost - so to suggest it was a 1939 usage - and with no refs - I challenge the authenticity of such an item - but I love to be proved wrong :) SatuSuro 14:38, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

You are correct that this should be written as Groote Oost rather than translated. I remember seeing it in Robert Cribb's Historical Atlas of Indonesia. Arsonal (talk) 15:15, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

The Groote Oost is the subject of a 1930 book by Cornelis Karel Elout (nl) titled De Groote Oost. There is also a translated book on the subject. See this article for an example of its usage in modern discourse about Eastern Indonesia. Arsonal (talk) 19:21, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes but - is it about the usage re the moluccas or the 1939-1940's name of an admin region as claimed in the stub? SatuSuro 00:14, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Groote Oost includes more than just Moluccas proper. It is one of the administrative divisions of the Dutch East Indies in its final days, just like the current stub says. Arsonal (talk) 09:22, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

It sure could do with a map and some refs it looked like a hoax stub when it started :( SatuSuro 09:25, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do when I get back to Cornell. Information on administrative divisions in the Dutch East Indies is very hard to come by, and it's difficult to dig out accurate maps. If anyone else has access to the Historical Atlas of Indonesia, you are welcome to help. Arsonal (talk) 09:36, 12 January 2010 (UTC) I do have :) - and have had the pleasure of holding and using some maps that are very rare and fit your needs perfectly but unfortunately they are on other side of australia :( SatuSuro 09:41, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

WP 1.0 bot announcement

This message is being sent to each WikiProject that participates in the WP 1.0 assessment system. On Saturday, January 23, 2010, the WP 1.0 bot will be upgraded. Your project does not need to take any action, but the appearance of your project's summary table will change. The upgrade will make many new, optional features available to all WikiProjects. Additional information is available at the WP 1.0 project homepage. — Carl (CBM · talk) 03:27, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

When the deletions happen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Noorhaidi_Hasan is a very salient lesson what happens when universal criteria are applied to Indonesian biographies - as wikipedia (at certain levels) is being currently rocked by wars over WP:BLP - if you have a biography on your watch list that is a WP:BLP - treat it carefully - add a ref or two - otherwise the war might spill into the project ... SatuSuro 03:36, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

There was also an obvious copyright violation in the text as it was directly copied from his NUS page. Arsonal (talk) 16:30, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

PORTAL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Portal:Indonesia - I have made my comment - I would appreciate any comment there and here as to the nomination - SatuSuro 09:25, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Fortunately good sense prevails - and it is no longer up for deletion SatuSuro 00:10, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Article count

By whatever means - we now have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:WP_1.0_bot/Tables/Project/Indonesia 7000 articles in this project SatuSuro 00:57, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

The table has existed before, just in a less functional format. This new table lets us see the articles of a specific quality and importance. We can now target certain articles for improvement, such as Top-importance Stubs. Arsonal (talk) 01:36, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Issues

Issues (1)

The Indonesian project discussions can get into detail about the three or four major articles and the details about their leads - while in the back ground - the project has an astonishing number of BLP's with no references - so just as a FYI to anyone who reads this:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Indonesia/Cleanup_listing

in most cases placed by editors who have invested time into putting various persons into the project without adequate refs (a non-no for BLP), and in many cases have not edited since. The project cleanup bot has identified:-

Unreferenced BLPs

• Sutardji Calzoum Bachri (Feb 2007)  Done
• Putra Sampoerna (Mar 2007)  Done
• Tio Tjay (Mar 2007)  Done one ref
• Waljinah (Mar 2007)  Done one ref
• Jahja Muhaimin (May 2007) problem
• Franklin Darmadi (Jul 2007) problem
• Fira Basuki (Sep 2007)  Done one ref
• Satrio Arismunandar (Sep 2007) problem
• Ishak Effendi (Oct 2007) ✗ Not done non-notable
• Rhoma Irama (Oct 2007)  Done
• Abdul Latief (Nov 2007)
• Octavia Yati (Dec 2007)
• Sarwendah Kusumawardhani (Dec 2007)
• Ginandjar Kartasasmita (Jan 2008)
• Mustofa Bisri (Jan 2008)
• Kho Ping Hoo (May 2008)
• Imelda Fransisca (Jun 2008)
• Daniel Mananta (Jul 2008)
• Feni Rose (Jul 2008)
• Ivan Venkov Kolev (Jul 2008)
• Mariana Renata (Jul 2008)
• Riri Riza (Jul 2008)
• Sandyawan Sumardi (Jul 2008)
• Siti Rahayu Wiryohudoyo (Jul 2008)
• Yuni Shara (Jul 2008)
• Donnijantoro (Sep 2008) ✗ Not done merge with him, him, and him into Koil (band)
• Muhammad Muzammil Basyuni (Sep 2008) ✗ Not done non-notable
• Amelia Natasha (Oct 2008)
• Atika Shubert (Oct 2008)  Done one ref
• Nadine Chandrawinata (Oct 2008)  Done incorrectly labeled
• Ananda Syahendar (Nov 2008) ✗ Not done non-notable
• Nur Mahmudi Ismail (Dec 2008)
• Aa Tarmana (Jan 2009) ✗ Not done non-notable
• Ade Chandra (Jan 2009)  Done one ref
• Ade Novit (Jan 2009) ✗ Not done non-notable
• Adyaksa Dault (Jan 2009)  Done also moved to Adhyaksa Dault
• Agus R. Sarjono (Jan 2009)
• Alvin Lie (Jan 2009) ✗ Not done non-notable
• Arief Budiman (Jan 2009)  Done one ref
• Ateng Wahyudi (Jan 2009) ✗ Not done non-notable
• Bachtiar Chamsyah (Jan 2009) ✗ Not done non-notable
• Bagus Setiadi (Jan 2009)
• Camelia Malik (Jan 2009)
• Cantika Felder (Jan 2009)
• Christianto Wibisono (Jan 2009)  Done one ref
• Dada Rosada (Jan 2009) ✗ Not done non-notable
• Dewa Made Beratha (Jan 2009) ✗ Not done non-notable
• Fahmy Shahab (Jan 2009)
• Fahri Asiza (Jan 2009) ✗ Not done non-notable
• Flandy Limpele (Jan 2009)
• Frans Tutuhatunewa (Jan 2009)  Done
• Hastomo Arbi (Jan 2009)
• Imaduddin (Jan 2009)
• Imam Utomo (Jan 2009)
• Imay Hendra (Jan 2009)
• Iwan Fals (Jan 2009)
• Jo Novita (Jan 2009)
• Kristiani Herawati (Jan 2009)
• Kusmayanto Kadiman (Jan 2009) ✗ Not done non-notable
• Lita Nurlita (Jan 2009)
• Lockoneco Lockoneco (Jan 2009)
• Muhammad Nazar (Jan 2009)
• Muhammad Rizal (Jan 2009)
• Nova Widianto (Jan 2009)  Done one ref
• Sandrina Malakiano (Jan 2009)
• Sapardi Djoko Damono (Jan 2009)
• Suharyadi Suharyadi (Jan 2009)
• Wage Rudolf Supratman (Jan 2009}
• Yapto Soerjosoemarno (Jan 2009) ✗ Not done non-notable
• Jahja Daniel Dharma (Mar 2009)  Done
• Pierre Roland (Mar 2009)
• Dorodjatun Kuntjoro-Jakti (May 2009)
• Ivan Cesar Asenjo (May 2009) ✗ Not done non-Indonesian
• Ahmadun Yosi Herfanda (Jun 2009)
• Mien Suhadi (Jun 2009)
• Mochtar Riady (Jul 2009)  Done one ref
• Frans Tumbuan (Aug 2009)
• Jojon (Aug 2009)
• Julia Perez (Aug 2009)
• Nabiel Makarim (Aug 2009)
• Ebiet G. Ade (Sep 2009)
• Shendy Puspa Irawati (Sep 2009)
• Kamidia Radisti (Oct 2009)
• Acha Septriasa (Feb 2010)  Done three refs

Wow, that looks more manageable than I imagined. Maybe this is something I can help with after vacation. Arsonal (talk) 09:52, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Starting my run. Arsonal (talk) 01:45, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm also marking those I consider to be non-notable. Please feel free to change them if you think otherwise. Arsonal (talk) 02:04, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Could someone also take a look at Acha Septriasa please? She appears to be notable and there appears to be sufficient coverage around, but needs attention from someone who can understand them. Thanks.--Michig (talk) 11:44, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Added a few refs that should uphold her notability. She's quite visible when look up her name in Google News. Arsonal (talk) 18:29, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Excellent. Thank you.--Michig (talk) 19:59, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Issues (2)

Provinces

The Indonesian project has significant issues regarding parallel categories in main space - which in some cases means templates have been copied over from WP In or other projects where repetition of articles and categories in more than one space seems to have escaped the creators

• Parent categories are duplicated sitting next to children categories

Some of this is created by template makers - enthusiastic about asserting the province/subdivisions - and the country - consequently creating redundant multiple categories in main space -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Provinces_of_Indonesia - is the best example - it is not enough to have a subcategory - but the same location province is mentioned in the article space

This issue relating to categories also exists the Wikimedia Commons. Photos are put in the parent Indonesia category when they can be put into more proper children categories. Arsonal (talk) 09:52, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

1. Proposal - all articles and categories in the Indonesian project space with parent and child category repeating in the category line at the bottom of an article should have the parent category removed unless there is an issue that can be stated clearly here at the project page for future reference

Support. I have been doing this. Arsonal (talk) 20:54, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Subdistrict

Then last year some brightsparks created a large series of orphan articles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subdistricts_of_Indonesia - which in most cases remain unlinked to any sources or any other content of the project

they are in effect parallel articles to existing articles and practically useless lists - which members of this project has had serious issues with redlinked never touched lists that keep reappearing regularly - a good example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subdistricts_of_Aceh - it goes nowhere is linked to nothing and has no WP:RS - just what the project needs not

Actually, I think these lists serve some function. They are different from standalone stub articles about non-notable subjects. I believe the subdistrict lists would stand up in AfD per the common outcomes I mentioned before. I think the issue is where to find resources to back up these lists. Indonesian government websites are quite bad at keeping up to date, so we have to rely on print sources which aren't as accessible when you're talking about Indonesian ones. Arsonal (talk) 09:52, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Can see that argument has a level of good sense - but still the project is burdened with orphaned reference free series of articles with lists of names - it simply encourages more of the same SatuSuro 12:33, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

But - when the project carries such marvelous parallel universes like: -

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subdistricts_of_Indonesia (created by non indonesian project eds )
• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_regencies_and_cities_of_Indonesia

bit like the farce of having to live with

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indonesia-related_topics (the original)
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_basic_Indonesia_topics (created by an editor who did this for almost all country topics)

one idea would be to surely we should ditch one of the duplicated items, get some redirects in and reduce the potential for confusion? SatuSuro 12:49, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

What to do?

Careful and methodical and slow checking of these issues need help - and a particular (peculiar maybe) sense of being to unravel the duplications - or the attempts at linking - so as to make some sense of the mess.

As there has been such a resounding silence to issues (1) - I presume the same will be for this more complex issue. Oh well thanks for at least reading this - cheers SatuSuro 09:14, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Kecamatan and Kelurahan

I believe that somebody needs to touch this issue: the translation of Kecamatan into subdistrict (ex district) and Kelurahan into village (ex subdistrict). Until now I can't find a verification that the translation of kecamatan is subdistrict, and that district is a "former" term (the same apply to Kelurahan). Most of (updated-2009) government statistic book use the terms district for kecamatan and subdistrict for kelurahan, which contradicts with the one in Wiki. Even the 2009 Map of Jakarta use the term that Wiki define as "former". I have no idea who started the idea to translate kelurahan into village. Kotamadya is also mentioned as a former obsolete term, whereas actually it is still used in updated statistic books and probably even in schools.

I'm planning to put this in a discussion, but I don't know ... that issue is like already rooted in Wiki, and nobody seems to touch the issue. Kinda frustrating really. --Rochelimit (talk) 06:40, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Please do not put links into section headings, thanks.

They are different - Kelurahan - is a village and Kecamatan - is a district - nothing is ever 'rooted' in wikipedia - if something is wrong it gets changed SatuSuro 06:45, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, but Kecamatan is also known as a subdistrict. Kotamadya is rather obsolete in the Special Capital Region of Jakarta, as the 5 main cities are known as "Administrative Cities" (Kota Administrasi). 7107Lecker ^{Tischgespräch, außerdem...} 09:42, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

The Indonesian articles of kabupaten administratif and kota administratif shed some light. Administrative regencies and cities are less autonomous and exist only in Jakarta. The capital is a special case where things are run top-down. Regency bupatis and city walikotas run their territories autonomously and do not normally report to the provincial governor. Kotamadya has also been translated as municipality in the Jakarta tourism website. The same website uses the terms sub-district and village. English books I've seen also use these translations for the two lower divisions. Arsonal (talk) 21:15, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Still unsure about the translation for Kecamatan and Kelurahan, I mean .. if Kecamatan is a "sub-district", what is a "district" then? I have a book with me from Jakarta Statistic and it translates Kecamatan as District and Kelurahan as Subdistrict. It's kinda weird to have a subdistrict with no district no? Correct me if I'm wrong. If somebody have access to the gov regarding the official translation of Kecamatan and Kelurahan, that would be a great opportunity to ask. Don't believe in Indonesian official websites, they are badly maintained and they sometimes copy paste info from wiki article! For now, I actually prefer to use the real term Kecamatan and Kelurahan instead of the English translation, which I personally think is kinda misleading. --Rochelimit (talk) 01:05, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't know if the government has actually set a policy on it. I'm betting that the translation difference arose from different translations of official documents made by separate ministries. A Comprehensive Indonesian–English Dictionary says:

• Kecamatan is the "subdistrict under camat's jurisdiction, i.e. a subdivision of kabupaten or kotamadya". However, sekecamatan means "of the same district".
• Kelurahan is a "village/ward, subdistrict, i.e. the administrative unit below a kecamatan, often the same as a desa".

Not helpful, I know. Perhaps this issue requires a consensus toward the use of the non-English term to avoid confusion and unnecessary disambiguation. Arsonal (talk) 01:25, 4 February 2010 (UTC)