Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Wales/Archive 2019

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Welsh Counties and Regions

In England we have: Historic Counties which aren't really used anymore for anything other than nostalgia. Ceremonial Counties which are the standard 48 counties used in things like addresses, and the English equivalent of the 50 US States. Metropolitan, Non-Metropolitan and Unitary Authority Counties which are used by the local governments. We have 9 regions.

Scotland are similar as they have Historic Counties which were used until 1975, and now their counties are called Council Areas. They have 8 regions.

With Wales however I can't work out what are seen as their counties today as they have: 9 Historic Counties 8 Preserved Counties 22 Principal Areas 11 Counties which were created from the 8 Preserved Counties and are part of the 22 Principal Areas And last of all: 5 Welsh Regions according to Wales.com however almost everywhere else seems to think there's 4, 6 or more. It's confusing as ****!

Basically the areas in England from smallest to largest go: neighbourhoods/villages > wards/villages > standalone towns, or towns which are inside cities > 1 of the 48 counties > 1 of 9 regions. For example in my city there's the neighbourhood/village Haworth, which is in the town of Keighley, which is in the City of Bradford, which is in the county of West Yorkshire, which is in the region of Yorkshire and the Humber.

Basically I want to know how many counties there are in Wales, and then how many regions there are.

Danstarr69 (talk) 21:24, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Danstarr69 - You'll find a lot of explanation in Wales#Government_and_politics. There are 22 counties/principal areas of local government. They are made up of communities (the English equivalent is civil parish) which are split into electoral wards. As for regions, it depends on what aspect of governance you're looking at - the Welsh Assembly has regions, different ones for police, and different again for education and health. And Wales is one region of the EU (at the moment!). Does this help any? Tony Holkham (Talk) 22:59, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Tony Holkham

From what I can tell there's:

5 regions (I'm not going to argue with Wales.com) in North West, North East, Mid Wales, South West and South East.

9 Historic Counties which don't exist anymore.

8 Preserved Counties which also technically don't exist anymore, even though they're labelled as Ceremonial Counties

11 Counties which look to be the equivalent of Ceremonial Counties of England

22 Principal Areas which are a mixture of things, so they're either the equivalent of the 326 Districts of England or the 84 Metropolitan/Non-Metropolitan Counties of England

Danstarr69 (talk) 23:42, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

The regions of Wales are not on a par with the Regions of England. Those of England are used by the Government for statistical purposes, and each forms one European constituency; but Wales has a single European constituency (as does Scotland). The word "region" (and variations) is used just twice in our article Local government in Wales. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 23:54, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

If you try to mix present day with history, it's bound to be confusing. At this moment, it's as I said above. In the past it was even more confusing. It's difficult to compare Wales's governance with England's, but yes, the 22 Welsh area are approximately equivalent, in governance to the present 84 entities in England. The 22 areas in Wales aren't a mixture of things, but clearly defined local government areas. It's almost impossible to say what a Welsh region is, as I've said, because it depends on context. (Please indent your talk page comments, as above, as it makes it easier to follow a thread. Ta.) Tony Holkham (Talk) 00:03, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Getting this information on Wikidata would be wonderful, for all nations of Britain. If it's done properly, then the old counties names would appear in Wikidata Infoboxes in all 300 languages, soon. For example, the infobox on the village of cy:Bwlchgwyn comes from Wikidata, but there's one important bit missing, if you compare to how it was previously, it doesn't contain: "Ceremonial county: Clwyd". So for each WD item (eg Bwlchgwyn) I think we would need a new Property (eg "historic name"). Quickstatements will upload the database, and I'll be more than happy to help, if anyone's interested? Llywelyn2000 (talk) 07:52, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Has anyone actually answered the question? Or is the answer that Wales doesn't have counties (which would be an odd position)? When I complete an address on a form that asks me for the county, I give the 'principle area' e.g. Cardiff, Blaenau Gwent etc. So are 'principle areas' effectively counties? What is the difference between a principle area and a county? Sionk (talk) 08:19, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

When I put my address in a form, sometimes it comes up as Dyfed, when it should be Pembrokeshire. Work that one out. Oh, and what was the question again? :) Tony Holkham (Talk) 10:49, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

The term is "principal", not "principle". As mentioned above, Wales has 22 principal areas, being the tier of local government directly below Wales itself, they correspond with the Unitary authorities of England. Three of the 22 (Cardiff, Newport and Swansea) are both cities and counties; of the remainder, about half describe themselves as counties, the others as county boroughs - generally, county boroughs are those of smaller area and higher population; but there is no legal distinction between the two kinds, unlike in England where e.g. unitary councils like Cornwall and metropolitan boroughs like Manchester do not have the same status as each other. The 22 principal areas were set up in 1996 to replace the previous two-tier system of eight county councils, each divided into a number of district councils. Some of the post-1996 principal areas (such as Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion, Pembrokeshire) correspond more or less with pre-1974 counties; one (Powys) corresponds reasonably closely with the 1974-96 county of the same name; some (such as Anglesey) correspond with 1974-96 district councils; and some (such as Conwy) have boundaries that do not correspond with any previous Welsh subdivision. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 17:27, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Just randomly came across the FIFTH PERIODICAL REPORT ON PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCIES AND FIRST REPORT ON NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FOR WALES ELECTORAL REGIONS (2005) which says on page 1 "The Local Government (Wales) Act 1994 replaced the two-tier structure of local government in Wales with 22 unitary authorities with the designation of County or County Borough." So the unitary authority areas are given the title of County or Count Borough. I'd describe them as 'County' or 'County Borough' then, in common parlance. Sionk (talk) 01:06, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

A quick trawl of the websites of the 22 councils shows that they refer to themselves thus:

Isle of Anglesey County Council, Blaenau Gwent County Borough Council, Bridgend County Borough Council, Caerphilly County Borough Council, Cardiff Council, Carmarthenshire County Council, Ceredigion County Council, Conwy County Borough Council, Denbighshire County Council, Flintshire County Council, Gwynedd Council, Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council, Monmouthshire County Council, Neath Port Talbot Council, Newport City Council, Pembrokeshire County Council, Powys County Council, Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council, Swansea Council, Torfaen County Borough Council, Vale of Glamorgan Council, Wrexham County Borough Council - so all are represented as county boroughs or counties except for Cardiff, Gwynedd, Neath Port Talbot, Swansea, and Vale of Glamorgan though of these note that both Cardiff and Swansea are formally referred to as the 'city and county of . .' cheers Geopersona (talk) 08:17, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

Category:Welsh-language television programmes

I noticed that, as a result of this discussion, all the categories under language programming had recently been moved by a bot to Category:Television programs by language, rather than "shows", "programmes" or "programming". As far as I can see, the discussion was not widely publicised, and I had noted on the talk page, way back in 2017, that "programmes" was more appropriate for Wales, because we don't use American spelling; "programs" means computer programs. So I've created Category:Welsh-language television programmes and redirected Category:Welsh-language television programs to it (which probably wasn't the right action but I'll go back and look at that later). I've made Category:S4C television programmes - the spelling of which had not changed - a subcategory. I hope that this action meets with the general approval of project members. If not, do feel free to say so. Deb (talk) 19:01, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Deb, I agree. I've just added the new category to Hinterland (TV series) and Keeping Faith (TV series), which are now in the category. Probably quite a few more to do? Tony Tony Holkham (Talk) 01:18, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

@Deb: three points arise on that: one, you did it as a WP:CUTPASTE move, which is strongly discouraged - I shall look at fixing that, although I may need to call in Anthony Appleyard (talk · contribs), our expert in sorting these out. Two, you used the wrong method of redirection - #REDIRECT [[...]] doesn't work for categories; it's been fixed by a bot. Three, you mention that the discussion was not widely publicised - but it was publicised through the normal channels for CFD; however, I cannot find any pre-publicity for your move to Category:Welsh-language television programmes. If you had put Category:Welsh-language television programs up at WP:CFDS, all these problems would have been avoided. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 09:14, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Hi. I'm not aware of having done any cutting and pasting, unless you are talking about the amendments to the categories; that was necessary because a lot of them had the "S4C programme" category as well as the "Welsh-language program" category; the only Welsh-language programmes that aren't S4C programmes are a few historical entries from before 1982, so the category was superfluous in most cases. I guessed a bot would fix the redirect, and thanks. However, if you look at Category talk:Welsh-language television programmes, you'll see that I mentioned my intention of moving it in 2017 and there was no opposition to that. Unfortunately, when multiple categories are moved en masse, attention is seldom given to the many country-specific Wikiprojects and we end up with a "one size fits all" solution that doesn't fit all. Deb (talk) 11:34, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

@Deb: This edit is the cut; the edit where you did the paste no longer exists because Anthony Appleyard had to delete it in order to fix up the page history and perform the move properly. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 00:24, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

At first I was baffled as to how that edit constitutes cut and paste. However, I think I see what happened: I moved the Category Talk but the Category itself didn't move with it. Deb (talk) 09:27, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

• @Deb, Tony Holkham, and Redrose64:  Done I history-merged Category:Welsh-language television programs to Category:Welsh-language television programmes. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 09:21, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Discussion of Dai Sport (dai-sport.com) at the reliable sources noticeboard

There is a discussion on the reliability of Dai Sport (dai-sport.com) at the reliable sources noticeboard. If you are interested, please participate at WP:RSN § dai-sport.com. — Newslinger talk 02:41, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Requested move discussion

Greetings! I have recently relisted a requested move discussion at Talk:2011 Welsh devolution referendum#Requested move 10 February 2019, regarding a page relating to this WikiProject. Discussion and opinions are invited. Thanks, Warm Regards, ZI Jony ^(Talk) 17:57, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

Missing Timeline of Welsh history

Hi there, I've recently been doing some work on the articles around the history of Britain. The Timeline of British history article has a list at the top with a redlink to Timeline of Welsh history. Has anyone ever thought about creating one of these to match the equivalent timeline articles for England, Scotland, etc.? I thought I might have a go at starting one (see sandbox) but I thought I should bring it up here because (1) someone might already be working on one of these and I don't want to step on any toes (or indeed waste time), and (2) it's going to take a lot of work and I probably need some help with it!
I'm getting my facts from various other articles, which just need to be worked through systematically:

• History of Wales
• Wales in the Late Middle Ages
• Modern history of Wales
• List of years in Wales
• 9th century in Wales >>> 17th century in Wales
• List of Anglo-Welsh wars
• List of castles in Wales
• and probably many more that I've not come across yet...

Any help would be appreciated. I'm actually quite glad it was the Welsh one that was missing as my great grandparents were Welsh so I do have a personal interest in this. Cheers, Rodney Baggins (talk) 15:13, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Very good idea. There's also:

• Wales in the Early Middle Ages
• Wales in the Middle Ages

Tony Holkham (Talk) 15:48, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Well done, Rodney. Good idea. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:41, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Deb (talk) 19:26, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Rodney Baggins You seem to have made a start in the sandbox. I'm not sure whether a bulleted or tabulated (as Timeline of English history) list is better. I suppose it depends on the browser. My personal preference is for the latter, which would enable the show/hide function. I think you should go ahead and create the article, and then we can help expand and source (vital) it.

Regarding your comment on Martinevans123's talk page, I don't suppose your thought on an Evans family tree would be possible; that way lies madness... It would include my wife, my GP and that wonderful English cricketer who I had the pleasure of meeting many years ago. Cheers, Tony. Tony Holkham (Talk) 12:09, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes, we would ultimately aim for tabulated lists in each section, to match the other timeline articles, but it just seems easier to build up the initial draft using bare lists for now. At some point it can be swapped into tables. (BTW my comment on the Evans connection was strictly tongue in cheek, but it's a nice idea...) Rodney Baggins (talk) 12:22, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Project plan: If you look at my sandbox, you'll see that I've created a PICKLIST (linked from the TOC) where I've tabulated all the articles that need purging for info to add to the timeline. So please pick something from the list to work on, sign the Editors column (with 4 tildes) and record progress in the RH column. Feel free to add any more entries if I've missed any. Try to limit the information to significant political, territorial, legal events. Don't include popular culture items like the birth of Tom Jones! Please just add things as bulleted lists for now. I'll keep an eye on things and convert the lists into tables when they start getting too big and unwieldy. You can include the sources as you go along, or we can add them en masse closer to publication. At some point, the article should be comprehensive enough to publish and then we can continue working on the "live" version. I'm wondering if there's a better place for this draft timeline to live while we're working on it... is it OK for me to produce a sandbox here rather than have it off my own User page? Rodney Baggins (talk) 09:19, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

I'll wait for it to go live, as I don't want to commit to something I may not be able to fulfil. You could go live straight away, with an {{under construction}} tag - it's not likely to be put up for deletion. Well done so far. Tony Holkham (Talk) 11:46, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

OK I'll take your advice and try to publish the article as soon as possible. I just need to fill in a few bare portions and probably tabulate the lists first. I'll put in a few citations first as well. It's going quite well so far and I have to say I'm finding all this Welsh history totally fascinating. I understand if people don't want to commit at this early stage, but once I've put the article up onto the live Wiki I hope others will be able to help me expand it. Please keep watching and don't be afraid to chip in if you feel the need. I honestly don't mind anyone making edits to this particular sandbox. Rodney Baggins (talk) 08:34, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Not advising, just suggesting :). Looking good. Tony Holkham (Talk) 09:33, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Published: Timeline of Welsh history — please contribute if you can. Thanks, Rodney Baggins (talk) 23:43, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Template:National Historic Assets of Wales

DavidCane has very kindly created a Welsh/Cadw version of the {{NHLE}} template he created for buildings on the National Historic List for England. It can be found with full instructions here, {{National Historic Assets of Wales}}. An example of its use is here, Trewyn House. It's incredibly helpful for referencing Cadw sites in a way that makes the official record easily accessible. KJP1 (talk) 06:40, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

WP 1.0 Bot Beta

Hello! Your WikiProject has been selected to participate in the WP 1.0 Bot rewrite beta. This means that, starting in the next few days or weeks, your assessment tables will be updated using code in the new bot, codenamed Lucky. You can read more about this change on the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial team page. Thanks! audiodude (talk) 06:47, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

HB numbers in Grade I and Grade II* buildings articles

I'm planning to undertake the, rather dull, task of replacing the links in the HB numbers columns for Grade I listed buildings in Monmouthshire and Grade II* listed buildings in Monmouthshire. They currently link to the British Listed Buildings site, [1], and I'm pretty sure we'd be better off with links to the official Cadw records, [2]. Before I do this, are there any comments/objections? I'd also really like to rename the HB column as Reference number. The Cadw records call them that, rather than HB numbers. Anyone know how to do that? KJP1 (talk) 12:29, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

The HB number is the Cadw number, isn't it? So it wouldn't need changing. Sionk (talk) 18:15, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Assuming we're talking about the title, HB number, rather than the number itself, 1931, I honestly don't think it is. The online Cadw records call them "Reference numbers", e.g. [3]. I'm really not sure where HB, which I assume stands for Historic Building, comes from, and I've queried it before. I just don't think it's helpful. KJP1 (talk) 18:55, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

I noticed similar issue with listed buildings in Scotland (a few websites suggest that HB was used by Historic Scotland in the past, but there is no mention of it on the Historic Environment Scotland website) and I haven’t seen it used on the Cadw site, even on archive copies of older listings (eg St. Nidan's Church (Old Church) that predate the creation of the relevant wiki list, plus there is no citation to support the HB footnote. Also I support the change to official Cadw over British Listed Buildings as BLB is just a copy that is sometimes out of date if Grade has been changed/removed. EdwardUK (talk) 14:50, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

I’ve had a look at the template: template:Cadw listed building row, rather than having to go through each url= on each usage and replace it I think it would be possible to change the line in the template from 1 to 2

1. {{#if:{{{hb|}}}| {{#if:{{{url|}}}|[{{{url}}} {{{hb}}}]|{{{hb}}}}}}}
2. {{#if:{{{hb|}}}|[http://cadwpublic-api.azurewebsites.net/reports/listedbuilding/FullReport?lang=en&id={{{hb}}} {{{hb}}}]}}

I’ve tested it in the sandbox and this would create an automatic link to Cadw using just the exiting hb= number without any disruption to the roughly 40 pages where the template is used, the documentation can be updated to show the change and then remove the url= from uses of template. EdwardUK (talk) 15:52, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

EdwardUK - Edward, first off, I'm grateful for the interest. Second, I'm a templating idiot, so must confess to not really understanding the detail of what you propose. But I think we agree on the principles:

• The links should be to the Cadw site, rather than the BLBO site;
• Citations are needed;
• The HB number title seems obscure, and something like Reference number would be preferable.

I should say that Martin of Sheffield kindly agreed to have a look at putting a reference/citation column in when I raised this at the Helpdesk. But I'd suggest you go ahead and try your suggestion. If it turns out to be problematic, I'm assuming it could be reversed? All the best and thanks again. KJP1 (talk) 20:51, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm no expert in template editing either I've just tried to work things out from looking at how other templates have been written. I've made the change to both templates - (row) link to Cadw, and (header) rename HB to Reference Number - it looks to have worked without any problems, the url= parameter can now be removed from the lists as it is no longer needed. EdwardUK (talk) 23:28, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

If you folks have come to a conclusion that can be put into practice and can explain to me what to do (in words of one syllable!), I can help with adding the template (particularly in Pembrokeshire). I've used BLB a great deal, and would be happy to see a direct Cadw link alongside. I don't think BLB links should be deleted, though, as Cadw could change their system (such things have been known) and leave us in a mess. Tony Holkham (Talk) 11:05, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

IMHO a separate column for citations is not a good idea as it is then unclear which text in which column it supports. The citations should be immediately after the supported text in whichever column that is.SovalValtos (talk) 11:24, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Tony Holkham, SovalValtos, Tony, SovalVatos, many thanks for the very helpful comments and EdwardUK thanks for all the work to date. The "ideal" I'd in mind is something like this, Grade I listed buildings in West Somerset which Rodw has done so much good work on. It uses the Historic England template, which links the entries to their up-to-date HE listings, it's comprehensively referenced, and, as an aside, it's achieved a Featured list ranking. It uses a Ref. column and, although I can see Sovaltos's point, I think the direct link between text and citation is perhaps a bit less important for lists than for articles. In effect the cite covers all that comes before in that row. Having said that, I've gone with Edward's revamp of Grade I listed buildings in Monmouthshire, with the cites against the notes text. If Tony likes it, it would be great to follow a similar pattern for other Welsh county lists. Very happy to talk you through it, if the style followed in the Monmouthshire Grade Is isn't clear. If it's an amendment to the actual template, however, you'll need to talk to Edward as it's way above my paygrade! KJP1 (talk) 12:29, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I was thinking about individual articles, but I note the comments regarding lists (e.g. Grade I listed buildings in Pembrokeshire, where Cadw ref. nos. are included, but citations - which would go to the same place - are not). Is this something that needs doing in this case? Sorry if I'm not following. Tony Holkham (Talk) 15:10, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

My though was that the reference number column should link directly to the Cadw database, but also that the notes should have citations too (even if this duplicates links to cadw) as this helps distinguish the sources of the existing notes from any others that may be added later. As noted it would be good to have Cadw and British listed buildings as a backup, as for example on Grade I listed buildings in Bridgend County Borough. I removed the url= parameter from the template but the BLB links remain in the page history and can be converted to citations. EdwardUK (talk) 16:57, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

In terms of referencing tasks there are two main things, adding the citations to the notes section of the lists (which I’m currently working on), and updating the individual articles of buildings on the list as many don’t have Cadw as a source, the easiest way of doing this is taking the Cadw numbers from the list and using it with the {{National Historic Assets of Wales}} template. EdwardUK (talk) 17:07, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

What's the number one thing I could be getting on with? Referencing? Deb (talk) 15:27, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Deb - Not sure I'm getting the question. If it's; is referencing important?, I think the answer's pretty clear: All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists and captions, must be verifiable. If it's; aren't other things, such as content creation or article quality, important?, then I'd agree. Of the 300+ articles I've created, about 250 are on Welsh buildings. Of those I've worked on, three comprise 75% of the articles on Welsh buildings which have FA status. Sorry if I'm missing something. KJP1 (talk) 17:17, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, I thought the question was about improving the lists, rather than the individual articles. Deb (talk) 18:01, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Deb - Not a problem at all. I think we're making quite good progress on the lists. The Monmouthshire Grade Is list is now fully referenced and each entry has a corresponding individual article, with an image. We're getting there on the Grade II*s, although this is a longer job. And, as you've noted before, getting the photos can be a challenge! As/when we get there with the Grade II*s, I think the Monmouthshire entries will be the only county lists for Wales, England, Scotland and Northern Ireland on Wikipedia that are fully referenced and that have individual articles, with images, for every building. Sorry, this is one of my geekier enthusiasms! All the best. KJP1 (talk) 18:30, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

I went to add this Cadw ref (from the Grade I listed buildings in Pembrokeshire list) and found the site is not secure - is this a problem? Tony Holkham (Talk) 21:47, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Tony Holkham - Tony - not a clue why it came up as insecure, but I'm 100% confident it's not a problem with the site. Cilgerran Castle comes up straight away for me. Some connection issue, perhaps? KJP1 (talk) 22:38, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

KJP1 - I can access the site, but wondered why it's http (which Google Chrome says is not secure) and not https. T. Tony Holkham (Talk) 22:45, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Tony Holkham - sorry, just don't know. I've tried it in Chrome and see what you mean. I think it's saying that it's not a site to load personal information too, rather than the site itself is insecure, but I'm no techie. Perhaps Edward will have an idea. It is the official Welsh Government heritage site, so I am confident that the issue is not major. KJP1 (talk) 22:57, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Tony Holkham - have now tried it in Chrome, Edge and Firefox and they all give the same security warning. It's definitely something to do with the (in)security of the site. But I am pretty certain that any insecurity would only be an issue if you were using the site to transmit, personal, data. As it's a completely inactive site of record, with no functionality to allow the submission of anything, I'm as sure as I can be that it's safe for both readers and editors. All the best. P.S. The Welsh History timeline is coming on very well. KJP1 (talk) 09:13, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

KJP1 - thanks for checking that out. I agree being a static database shouldn't be a problem. All the best to you, too. The timeline is fun and informative, thanks to Rodney Baggins; hope to get back to sourcing soon. T. Tony Holkham (Talk) 12:44, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

A new newsletter directory is out!

A new Newsletter directory has been created to replace the old, out-of-date one. If your WikiProject and its taskforces have newsletters (even inactive ones), or if you know of a missing newsletter (including from sister projects like WikiSpecies), please include it in the directory! The template can be a bit tricky, so if you need help, just post the newsletter on the template's talk page and someone will add it for you.

– Sent on behalf of Headbomb. 03:11, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Lloyd George

Discussion on article name for those interested -----Snowded ^TALK 10:19, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Infobox UK place

Template:Infobox UK place has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:45, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Organisation/organization RfC

There is an RfC on whether all Wikipedia categories should use the spelling "organization" (regardless of the respective country) taking place here. Number 57 19:26, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Discussion of WalesOnline on the reliable sources noticeboard

There is a discussion on the reliability of WalesOnline on the reliable sources noticeboard on the reliable sources noticeboard. If you're interested, please participate at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard § WalesOnline.co.uk. — Newslinger talk 22:32, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Celtic Knot Wikimedia Language Conference 2019

The third Celtic Knot Language Conference will be held this year at Penryn Campus, Cornwall on the 4th & 5th of July 2019.

More information can be found here. See you there! Llywelyn2000 (talk) 08:41, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Medieval Welsh Manuscripts

Hi everyone. I just wanted to draw your attention to a bunch of new images on Commons for Welsh important Welsh manuscripts. The whole Peniarth Manuscript collection also now has rich Wikidata. It would be great to see some of these used to enrich or create Wiki articles bout Wales. Many thanks! Jason.nlw (talk) 15:15, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

Contributing to Wicipedia

As an Englishman retired to Wales (where else?), and an experienced editor on Wikipedia with a special interest in creating and improving articles relating to Wales, I would love to contribute to Wicipedia. My Welsh, however, is as yet very basic (must do better!). Is there a group of editors who collaborate across the two languages to create or improve articles in both? If so, I would be interested in joining them. Tony Holkham (Talk) 12:56, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

That's a good question. I'm also a non-Welsh speaker (despite being Welsh!), but I'm learning (thanks to Duolingo) and would love to help improve Wicipedia if possible. – PeeJay 14:46, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

(Aside) I've started using Say Something in Welsh, PeeJay2K3 - seems good. Tony Holkham (Talk) 14:56, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

You're both very welcome to get on over there and contribute. I'm sure that you will be able to find something. My Welsh is not exactly advanced either. If you need guidance, the person to talk to is User:Llywelyn2000. Deb (talk) 14:51, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, Deb My Welsh is not good enough, yet, though, to understand much over there. Tony Holkham (Talk) 14:56, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

There are basic things like changing dates of references into Welsh, and probably quite a lot of categories that haven't had their Welsh equivalents added to wikidata. That's just off the top of my head. Deb (talk) 15:03, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for that. T Tony Holkham (Talk) 15:08, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

Just as a general heads-up if you're not aware, be aware that the Welsh and English Wikipedias have different rules on sourcing and notability. You'll often find topics (particularly biographies and literary works) that have articles in Welsh but not English (e.g. Karin Hildén, Llyn y Gors, Blwyddyn Gron); before you're tempted to translate them to English to fill the apparent gap, double-check that they meet English Wikipedia's much stricter rules. ‑ Iridescent 15:32, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

Ta, Iridescent. I was aware, but worth reminding. Tony Holkham (Talk) 15:37, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

Please count me in as someone who is sympathetic to this aspiration, but who also has a fragmentary grasp of the language. Any useful tasks that a Welsh learner might be able to attend to which enhanced Wicipedia rather than compromised it(!) would be worth identifying. diolch/thanks Geopersona (talk) 05:46, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

My Cymraeg is practically nil, but I did buy a dictionary. Despite that, check out cy:Arbennig:Contributions/Redrose64. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 09:45, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, thanks for that encouragement, Redrose64. Tony Holkham (Talk) 10:04, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

I've just found this on Wicipedia: Learners' corner. Tony Holkham (Talk) 10:12, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Pleased with these responses - thanks, all. I'll let this thread linger for a while, than maybe put a piece in the project article, with suggestions and volunteer list. Llywelyn2000: re the above - any further suggestions/comments? Cheers, Tony Holkham (Talk) 10:19, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Croeso! Learners' corner is a good link; I'll add and amend it asap. imho, the most important bit, which needs fixing is matching our monuments articles to corresponding wikidata items, so that the Infobox place can be used. All geotagged articles can use this infobox, but unfortunately, the uploader used the English version database on Wikidata rather than the Welsh names on the articles. All articles in this category and cy:Categori:Adeiladau ac adeiladwaith yng Nghymru (and all subcategories!) need matching up, with coordinates. The old infobox should be replaced with the new WD one.

Deb has shown that a non-Welsh speaker can contribute fully, and her work over the last 12 years or more is invaluable: small stuff, important edits such as new articles, deaths...

But it may well be that the best contribution could be on enwiki - in depoliticising articles such as Timeline of Welsh history, whereby inclusion of the English royal family, for some reason, is notable! eg 'Queen Elizabeth II visits South Wales' or 'Prince Charles opens a new building to house the Narrow Gauge Railway...' or 'HRH Prince William of Wales visits Bangor and Anglesey, to mark his 21st birthday ...'. such nationalist views are not only irrelevant to most people, but are completely un-notable.

Personally I think those things are significant. They remind people who don't know anything about Wales that we are connected with the United Kingdom. I make a point of always putting it in the form Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom, King George I of Great Britain, etc, so that readers understand something of the status of the royal family in relation to Wales. If we didn't mention the royals, there would be a point somewhere around the sixteenth century where it would get even more confusing than it already is. Deb (talk) 08:11, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Pob lwc yn dysgu Cymraeg! Croeso, gyfaill! Llywelyn2000 (talk) 05:46, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

As Deb says, contributing on Wales topics on English Wikipedia is invaluable. I was surprised how many key events don't have articles yet. As for working on Wicipedia Cymraeg, I have also found it quite handy for working out sentence structure in Welsh. It sort of measures my level of Welsh, the types of contributions I'm able to make. Hopefully one day I'll write a full article. Pob lwc, diolch am ofyn :) Sionk (talk) 09:30, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for all comments. I have added something here for anyone interested in editing Wicipedia. Tony Holkham (Talk) 12:26, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Coflein offline?

I seem to be having trouble getting to Coflein. Does anyone know if the site is having problems? Perhaps it's me. Tony Holkham (Talk) 13:57, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

It's ok, it's them - see here. Tony Holkham (Talk) 14:00, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

Wiki Loves Monuments

Hi all. Wiki Loves Monuments will be held again this year, during the whole of September. There's a page on Wales, here on Wikimedia UK's WLM's website, where you can find the upload link. Any ideas for editathons, photothons etc please let me know, so we can publicise.

Secondly, many items on buildings in Wales on Wikidata don't have an image, even though they're on Commons, so a link needs to be made. There's a great tool for doing this, which helps editors by offering suggested images:

https://tools.wmflabs.org/fist/file_candidates/#/candidates/?sparql=SELECT%20%3Fplace%20%7B%0A%20%20%23%20Snowdon%20coordinates%0A%20%20wd%3AQ217142%20wdt%3AP625%20%3FcenterLoc%20.%0A%20%20SERVICE%20wikibase%3Aaround%20%7B%0A%20%20%20%20%3Fplace%20wdt%3AP625%20%3Flocation%20.%0A%20%20%20%20bd%3AserviceParam%20wikibase%3Acenter%20%3FcenterLoc%20.%0A%20%20%20%20bd%3AserviceParam%20wikibase%3Aradius%20"40"%20.%0A%20%20%7D%0A%7D

it's called 'Wikidata file candidates' and there's a short video here on You Tube. Please copy paste the URL as code, as wiki-code is hampering the link. As nearly all geotagged articles on many Wikipedias (including cywiki) take a live feed from Commons / Wikidata, this will have an immediate effect on Wikipedia. This is a marriage of three: Wikipedia, Commons and Wikidata: a kind of Wiki Ménage à trois!

Lastly, if you enjoy walking, why not download this tool onto your phone? Enter location, and a map with all listed buildings and monuments will appear. Point you camera, click, upload and hey presto it will now be on commons, linked in Wikidata, and will appear automatically and within seconds in the relevant Wikipedia article (in WD enabled wikis)!

Enjoy! Pob hwyl! Llywelyn2000 (talk) 08:10, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Templates for lists of listed buildings

During the Featured List discussion for Grade I listed buildings in Monmouthshire, a number of editors commented on some of the column headings in the template, in particular, the Date Listed and Function columns. It was suggested that the listing date was of limited interest to readers, and that the building's actual date, i.e. when it was built, would be more useful. The value of the Function column was also thought to be limited as, for example, most churches function as churches, unless they're redundant, and castles as castles etc. Use of these column headings isn't limited to the Monmouthshire lists, applying to all 40 articles that use the template. An example of an alternative approach to the Listing date column is this, Grade I listed buildings in Bath and North East Somerset, although it continues to use the Function column, redesignated Type. RexxS has very kindly offered help in making the changes to the templates, when he's no longer tied up with Wikimania, but first we'd need to get consensus for making any such changes, and then, more challenging still, editors with an interest in the lists would need to make the corresponding changes to the content. I committed to raising the question at the Wales Project Talkpage, and would be interested in others' thoughts. KJP1 (talk) 05:49, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

This edit will not have notified RexxS (talk · contribs). The notifications system ignores corrective edits: you need to get it right the first time. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:53, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up, Redrose64. I've watchlisted this page now, so I'll be ready to sort out whatever changes (if any) the folks here want to implement, whenever they are are ready. Cheers --RexxS (talk) 21:11, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Elygogs

Anyone know what elygogs are (from Ynys Bery)?

Fenton, in 1811, describes the island, and its neighbour Ynys y Cantwr: "with high craggy cliffs, producing a thick matted herbage mixed with scurvy-grass and the sea pink, affording pasture for a few sheep, and stocked with rabbits, puffins, elygogs, gulls and other sea fowl."

Tony Holkham (Talk) 23:22, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

Jimfbleak - Google throws me Afon Elygog, as I'm sure it did for you. My guess is that it's an archaic, probably now defunct, term. Jim's the man for matters ornithological and may be able to help. Is an elgoog a type of gull? (As well as being the reverse of Google and some type of game! But I know even less about online gaming than I do about birds.) KJP1 (talk) 04:31, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

I think the placement in the sentence would make it likely to be a seabird, and maybe one that people would exploit (sea fowl presumably meaning game). There's quite a wide choice. Tony Holkham (Talk) 08:08, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm thinking fulmars, petrels, gannets, and maybe the origin of the word is Norse, English, Cornish or even Flemish. Tony Holkham (Talk) 08:27, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

In the context you would expect it to be welsh, and it looks welsh, but it's not in my Welsh dictionary, no entry at cy-wiki, and the on-line Welsh translators don't have anything. Guillemot in modern welsh is gwylog, which isn't far off, so perhaps an archaic form as suggested? Fulmar and gannet didn't breed there then Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:46, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

Jimfbleak - thanks; that looks quite likely. Tony Holkham (Talk) 10:52, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

I moved on to searching Ellygog, Helygog, Hellygog and Hellygoge etc but was spending too much time without result. Helygog the place [4]. Was there a gog in Tarka? Cormorants, Onomatopoeia?SovalValtos (talk) 11:29, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

Not in Tarka, no. Tony Holkham (Talk) 12:03, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

"Elygog" - "gwylog" - I could see that being a corruption. My money's on guillemot! KJP1 (talk) 12:41, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

The guillemot theory is supported by the Coflein entry on Elegug Stacks in South Pembrokeshire: The freestanding former arches of Elegug Stacks or Stack Rocks are named after the guillemots (`elegug¿ in Welsh) which nest here along with razorbills, fulmars and cormorants.[5] Verbcatcher (talk) 19:09, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Verbcatcher - thanks, I have added a note to the Ynys Bery article. Tony Holkham (Talk) 21:54, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Request for information on WP1.0 web tool

Hello and greetings from the maintainers of the WP 1.0 Bot! As you may or may not know, we are currently involved in an overhaul of the bot, in order to make it more modern and maintainable. As part of this process, we will be rewriting the web tool that is part of the project. You might have noticed this tool if you click through the links on the project assessment summary tables.

We'd like to collect information on how the current tool is used by....you! How do you yourself and the other maintainers of your project use the web tool? Which of its features do you need? How frequently do you use these features? And what features is the tool missing that would be useful to you? We have collected all of these questions at this Google form where you can leave your response. Walkerma (talk) 04:25, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Llannerch

Can anyone confirm whether or not this village exists? Llanerch Hall, the Tweedmill Shopping Outlet, the holiday park all exist but I cannot find anything to suggest that there is a village by the name of Llanerch. The residential estates referred to seem to be labelled on maps as Nant-y-Patrick. Nthep (talk) 23:34, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

The Llannerch article claims it to be a community: but there is no community of this exact name, the closest match being Llannerch-y-Medd in Anglesey. At the Llannerch article, the coordinates indicate a spot which lies within Trefnant Community. Here is a list of communities in Denbighshire. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 00:39, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the Mapit link User:Redrose64 [6] which looks to be useful for more than just the above.SovalValtos (talk) 11:44, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Mind how you go. If you don't register with them, they allow 50 page views before it maxes out, but after a while (I don't know exactly how long) they allow another 50. You can find out just how many of the 50 that you have used up by visiting https://mapit.mysociety.org/quota and examining the "current" figure (note that visiting this page will not use up one of your page views). Some links that you may find useful:

• Wales
• Unitary authorities in Wales - for some reason this lists 20 instead of 22, omitting Carmarthenshire (2604) and Denbighshire (2602)
• Unitary authorities in the UK - includes all 22 Welsh principal areas
• Denbighshire
• Communities in Denbighshire

--Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:28, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Ah, I've now found why you were asking. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:11, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

The sum of all... churches

Hi all. Magnus has uploaded the Church of Wales db into Mix'N Match. There's a fair but of matching to do, if you enjoy jig-so! Once it's done, we can use the data to create over a thousand Welsh, Gaelic, French, German.... articles. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 13:42, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

FAC

I currently have a Welsh-related topic at FAC if anyone has the time to review. The article in question is Ninian Park, the former home ground of Cardiff City F.C.. Appreciate any feedback. Kosack (talk) 09:15, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

On a similar note, my new FAC 1927 FA Cup Final is also in need of some eyes if anyone has the time. Much appreciated. Kosack (talk) 21:40, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

About Draft:Talog, Carmarthenshire

Hi all,
I'm just about to decline the speedy deletion of this draft, as the Ordnance Survey's GetOutside website (no existing en.wp article) mentions its existence.
Your thoughts about this?
Pete AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 10:09, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

The only grounds to delete are that it's not been improved on for 6 months. I'll have a look and see if I can improve it. Deb (talk) 12:30, 16 December 2019 (UTC)