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WikiProject Wales (Rated Project-class)
This page is within the scope of WikiProject Wales, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Wales on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
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John Cledwyn Hughes (author)Edit

Hi, I have recently had a short article on the Anglo-Welsh author, John Cledwyn Hughes (author), accepted on to Wikipedia. The more experienced editors who were kindly helping me suggested I let you know. I would be particularly interested in anyone who could help strengthen the objectivity and add sources as I am the daughter of the writer and it is clearly much better for others to contribute content! Diolch! Kittyo (talk) 09:45, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

RFC: Should the monarch be included in Wales in Year articles?Edit

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Comments in support of the proposal reasoned that the monarch should be included for consistency with the 'Year in' articles of other constituent countries of the United Kingdom. Comments in opposition argued that it's redundant and doesn't really make sense on these articles. The consensus in this discussion supports the consistency argument ('all or none'; that is, so long as it's present on some constituent country articles, it should be present on all of them).
That said, it's unclear whether there is consensus for it to be on any article for a constituent country, with some editors in support also expressing reservations on its utility. Future discussion on that issue is recommended, including exploring alternative methods of presentation (eg, some in the discussion discussed the idea of using an infobox). ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 12:22, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Having taken notice that the monarch is included in the 'incumbent' section of the Year articles for England, Northern Ireland, Scotland & the United Kingdom. The question should be asked. Should the monarch be included in the 'incumbent' section of the Year articles for Wales? GoodDay (talk) 16:29, 2 November 2021 (UTC)


  • No - no. Deb (talk) 16:36, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Yes - Indeed, as it's done in the Scotland, England, Northern Ireland & United Kingdom Year articles. Which links to the British monarchy in these cases, for reader clarification. GoodDay (talk) 17:41, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
  • No - no. Llwyld (talk) 23:58, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Strong Yes. The monarch has many roles in relation to Wales. For example, the First Minister of Wales is officially appointed by the monarch, and just a month ago, she opened a new session of the Senedd. Also, the Government of Wales Act 2006 gave the monarch new functions of formally appointing other Welsh ministers, and granting royal assent to Acts of the Welsh Assembly. Peter Ormond 💬 15:38, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Weak Yes I don't really think it needs to be included in the England, Scotland and Northern Ireland articles but if it is then its probably best to include it on the Wales ones for consistency.--Llewee (talk) 19:20, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
  • No - Elizabeth II is Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as a whole and not a unique monarch for each of the individual subdivisions. Should only be included as an incumbent on the United Kingdom articles and not for Wales, Scotland, England etc for post Acts of Union articles. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 14:57, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Weak Yes But I would also say, how about the Prince of Wales too? Coldupnorth (talk) 15:54, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
@Coldupnorth: an earlier RFC resulted in 'excluding' the prince & princess of Wales. GoodDay (talk) 19:34, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Be consistent. While mentioned at England, Scotland and NI, it should definitely be mentioned here also. I'm uncertain whether it should be mentioned for England, Scotland and NI (at least post 1801/1707) but it currently is and this is the wrong discussion in the wrong venue to decide if we want to change that. Thryduulf (talk) 16:19, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
  • No - per Stevie fae Scotland, it doesn't seem relevant as the Queen isn't specific to Wales whereas the rest of the listed incumbents are (e.g. First Minister, Archbishop of Wales, National Poet of Wales). If we included the queen, it would make sense to list the rest of incumbents in British politics, e.g. Prime Minister, Poet Laureate of the United Kingdom, etc. why would we draw the line at just the queen? It's better in my view to keep the list limited to just Wales-specific offices. Jr8825Talk 20:07, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Weak yes for consistency for other UK countries. The queen hasn't been abolished yet.--Creoda (talk) 14:22, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Yes for consistency. All or none, otherwise this discussion will keep coming back. Tony Holkham (Talk) 14:37, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Yes for the purposes of this discussion, unless someone can demonstrate Wales is fundamentally different from other UK countries. Otherwise this discussion should be in a different place, as it would set a precedent for other articles.


GoodDay I'm disappointed that you haven't taken up the alternative suggestion of including the monarch in a UK box for all the home countries instead of wanting to put this in the "Incumbents" section of articles which are intended for matters of specific interest to Wales. It's definitely not good enough to just put (for example) "Elizabeth II" as that will just confuse readers ("Elizabeth II of Wales? Who's she?") Deb (talk) 16:35, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

I never understood what you were suggesting. A visual would be helpful. GoodDay (talk) 16:37, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
It's simple: Instead of changing the Wales infobox which has been in existence for donkey's years, you create a "United Kingdom" infobox containing the names of the current incumbents such as the Queen, Johnson, etc. Then there will be no need for any conflict. Deb (talk) 18:34, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
Not proposing to change the Wales infobox. GoodDay (talk) 21:12, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
We use the pipe-links [List of English monarchs|Monarch] before 1707 & [List of British monarchs|Monarch] or [Monarchy of the United Kingdom|Monarch] after 1707, in front of the monarch's name. AFAIK, nobody has been mistakenly thinking "Elizabeth II of Scotland", "Elizabeth II of Northern Ireland" or "Elizabeth II of England", in four of the other aforementioned Year articles, as she's preceded with link to the British monarchy. GoodDay (talk) 16:43, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
How can you possibly know that? In fact, I regularly hear her referred to as "Elizabeth II of England" by people from all over the world. Deb (talk) 18:34, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
I'm still waiting for a visual example of what you were proposing last month. GoodDay (talk) 21:10, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Being new to the discussion, and not seeing an obvious prior discussion, why does it matter? CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n! 23:45, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
Why should Wales be treated differently from Scotland, England & Northern Ireland, in this topic? GoodDay (talk) 01:37, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
You're talking about the Year in Wales standard layout which was created years before the equivalent articles on Scotland and Northern Ireland were in existence. England doesn't even have a full set of year articles yet. What you've done is to impose a standard of your own preference on existing articles about the United Kingdom home countries, all of which have slightly different methods of government. You haven't explained why you did that rather than create a single UK template for the things that are the same about all four countries instead of trying to force each individual country into a mould that does not suit its specific needs. The monarch is of no "specific" interest to Wales, any more than the Archbishop of Canterbury or the Chancellor of the Exchequer is. So the question is actually, why should Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland be treated the same as England? Deb (talk) 09:22, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
I still don't know what you're going on about, with this UK template idea. I'll ask you a third (maybe fourth) time, show me a visual of what you're proposing? PS - I'm still not convinced of your claims that today's Wales is completely different from today's Scotland, England & Northern Ireland. Wales isn't an independent country, so let's stop trying to present it as though it were. GoodDay (talk) 18:06, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
It really sounds like you don't have much idea about how the UK works or how much bad feeling you will be in danger of stoking up if you force through your preferred layout. The purpose of the Year in Wales article - and this is at the top of each article in the series - is to list information of "particular significance ... to Wales and its people". You want to include the name of the monarch - which isn't of particular significance to Wales, Scotland, England or Northern Ireland, only to the UK - and yet you haven't suggested including the name of the UK prime minister. Nevertheless, you've insisted on removing the Prince of Wales, which is far more relevant to Wales than the current monarch.
You could use a variation on Template:Infobox UK country. That infobox already contains a section for incumbents that are relevant to the whole of the UK, as well as currency, time difference, etc; the difference is that names would need to change from year to year. If you feel it's necessary, it could go in the corner of each year page for a UK country, separate from the usual Year infobox. It would save work because the same template would cover all four countries, and would be more informative to the reader than repeating the names of incumbents in each article and leaving everyone guessing as to why Wales has a Queen and what her title is. Deb (talk) 19:27, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
A UK template isn't required. It's not used at the post-1707 Scotland, post-1707 England or the Northern Ireland Year articles. Also, the British monarch (not the British prime minister) appoints the Welsh first minister & therefore the British prime minister is 'excluded'. There's only two possible outcomes to this RFC & I'll be respecting whatever the outcome is. GoodDay (talk) 20:53, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
A UK template would be the easiest solution because it would offend nobody. Don't you care about achieving the most complete consensus on this? There are many areas in which the UK government takes precedence over the Welsh government, and if you believe that politics and government are the only topics for which the Incumbents section exists, then you should be taking account of that as well. The Incumbents section in the Year in Wales section was not created specifically for politics and government when the layout was established back in 2006 (before the other year articles you mention were thought of). How can the Queen be of specific interest to Wales when she performs the same functions in relation to other UK countries? Why is it not adequate to have her listed in the Incumbents section of Year in United Kingdom articles? Deb (talk) 10:08, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
She 'is' in the incumbent section of the Year in the United Kingdom articles. As the British monarch, she reigns in the United Kingdom, which means she reigns over Wales, Scotland, England & Northern Ireland. It just happens to be that England, Wales, Northern Ireland & Scotland 'make up' the United Kingdom. On a somewhat related note, you may have noticed that the current British monarch is shown in the infoboxes of the United Kingdom, as well as Wales, Scotland, England & Northern Ireland. I'm just not buying into your argument that Wales is different or special from the rest of the UK. PS - Respectfully, you're not going to bludgeon me into agreeing with you, on this topic. GoodDay (talk) 20:43, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
I'm trying to explain to you, since you don't seem to understand my argument. Why is it necessary to change the standard layout in order to have the monarch mentioned in the articles on each of the four home countries? Why is it not adequate to have them named in the United Kingdom article? If someone started a "Year in California" article, would you really expect them to list the President of the United States? There is absolutely nothing about the UK monarch that is of specific interest to the year in Wales. It's simply unnecessary duplication (as well as being insulting). Deb (talk) 10:15, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
If you want to open up an RFC calling for the removal of the British monarch from the post-1707 Year in England articles, post-1707 Year in Scotland articles, the English/British monarch from the post-1282 Year in Wales articles & the British monarch from the Year in Northern Ireland articles? Then do so. GoodDay (talk) 17:35, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
There is simply no reason for it to be there. It's just duplication of information that already exists in the Year in the United Kingdom articles. Consistency is not a good reason to include superfluous detail. Deb (talk) 10:24, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
We shall disagree on it being superfluous detail. GoodDay (talk) 13:27, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

GoodDay, I note that this discussion has been notified only to Wikipedia:WikiProject Wales and not to Wikipedia:WikiProject Scotland, Wikipedia:WikiProject Northern Ireland and others that you are using to support your case? Deb (talk) 10:40, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Are you requesting that I contact the other four WikiProjects about this RFC? GoodDay (talk) 13:27, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
I believe that's what you should have done from the beginning. Deb (talk) 13:29, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
I thought you might've objected to it. But, since that's not the case, then I'll contact all of them. GoodDay (talk) 13:32, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
PS: Note @Peter Ormond: already contacted WP:UK, three days ago. GoodDay (talk)
  • I would agree with Deb that a UK infobox might clear up any confusion. QEII is the head or state, after all, and is listed as an incumbent in "Year in" articles for Commonwealth countries. If we're including the monarch as an incumbent we should really include the UK prime minister too, who also has jurisdiction over the constituent parts of the UK - but Deb's infobox idea would potentially solve that confusion too. But overall, this discussion is being held in the wrong place, because the conclusion would apply equally to England, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Sionk (talk) 18:25, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
For now, we should concentrate on the current RFC question. If the monarch is added? then later we can look into the UK infobox idea & present it to all the Year in place-in-question articles. GoodDay (talk) 06:21, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
The problem here is that you went ahead with this in its present form after I made the suggestion about an infobox. And by making this an RFC solely about the Year in Wales pages, when in fact it's about all "Year in UK country" pages, you've effectively prevented a proper discussion about whether the monarch belongs on any of those pages. Clearly I'm not the only one who thinks it's superfluous. There are also other alternatives, such as a simple explanatory note, which could have been put forward. Deb (talk) 09:29, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
An RFC concerning the Year in Wales, Scotland, England & Northern Ireland articles was already held recently, concerning the inclusion/exclusion of the monarch. That RFC ended in no consensus for either inclusion or exclusion. GoodDay (talk) 17:42, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
That doesn't explain why you've chosen to open another discussion here, rather than about all the UK articles. The monarch was added to the Northern Ireland pages in November 2020 without any discussion (or even an edit summary) so it seems the NI pages should be included in any discussion too. Sionk (talk) 00:09, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
The post-1707 Scotland, England & the Northern Ireland Year articles already have the monarch in them. It's easier to attempt to bring one article-in-line with the other three, then to attempt to bring the other three articles-in-line with one. GoodDay (talk) 00:45, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
You're either willfully ignoring the point I was making, or mis-reading my post. If someone objected to the UK monarch in the Northern Ireland articles, reverted the recent edits and removed it, we'd have two sets of articles with, and two without. Sionk (talk) 20:40, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
It's been a whole year now & nobody has. Likely because we list the British monarch in the Wales, England, Scotland & Northern Ireland articles. GoodDay (talk) 01:25, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
More likely because they haven't noticed that the monarch is also listed under the year in United Kingdom - unnecessary duplication which you've so far failed to justify. As to whether a year is too long, remember what you said during this conversation? Deb (talk) 16:01, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
We'll wait & see what the end result of this RFC, will be. GoodDay (talk) 19:24, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
There can't possibly be a yes/no result from this RFC because of the issues listed above. You are wasting everyone's time by refusing to consider alternatives. Deb (talk) 19:30, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
The result will either be add or don't add the monarch. GoodDay (talk) 20:32, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
The result of the "vote" may appear to be a consensus to add or don't add, but it will not be adopted because of the way you've handled this. Deb (talk) 10:44, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
The result will be adopted, whatever a non-involved closing editor decides. GoodDay (talk) 16:31, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
Ah, you may be assuming that a "vote" is binding on the closing editor. That's not what it's for. A request for "comment" is just that. Although there are lots of comments, you've rejected a better solution to the issue. Deb (talk) 16:39, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
I'm not assuming anything. We're leaving it in the hands of the closer. GoodDay (talk) 16:45, 20 November 2021 (UTC)


The RFC template will soon be expiring. After it does, I'll head over to Wikipedia:Closure requests, for someone to asses the results & close. GoodDay (talk) 03:21, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@ProcrastinatingReader: I'm going to interpret your closing as "add the monarch", since the monarch is already in the post-1707 Year in Scotland, post-1707 Year in England & Year in Northern Ireland articles. Meanwhile, I would recommend that the main opponent @Deb:, set up an RFC for the Year in articles (with his infobox proposal) covering 'all' four constituent countries, 1801-1922 Year in Ireland articles & 1541-1800 Year in Ireland articles. GoodDay (talk) 02:17, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

GoodDay - Don't even think about it. The discussion was closed without consensus, and that's because you refused to compromise on a better solution. Deb (talk) 08:40, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
I believe, if you open up such an RFC (with the infobox idea) in the proper place. You would get an overwhelming consensus for it. GoodDay (talk) 08:44, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

@ProcrastinatingReader: Please note that Debs has gone against the consensus for consistency & is reverting my implementation of your decision. GoodDay (talk) 09:02, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

ProcrastinatingReader, I think it might help us both, if you were to clarify 'exactly' whether the monarch should be added into the Year in Wales articles (as they are included in the post-1707 Year in Scotland, post-1707 Year in England, Year in Northern Ireland articles), or not. Myself & Deb are reading your decision, differently. GoodDay (talk) 09:28, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Until there's a consensus to remove it on all (or change the presentation on all), yes, the monarch should be added as per The consensus in this discussion supports the consistency argument ('all or none'; that is, so long as it's present on some constituent country articles, it should be present on all of them). ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:54, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
@ProcrastinatingReader:I tried to implement your decision, but Debs mass reverted me. He's also threatened me with an WP:ANI report, if I tried to reimplement your decision. GoodDay (talk) 11:23, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
Incidentally, I withdraw that threat, it was pointless. Deb (talk) 12:25, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
Then, you'll step aside & allow me to re-implement PR's decision? In the meantime, you can challenge his close in the proper place. GoodDay (talk) 12:28, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
Of course not. It's not a "decision" in any meaningful way. Deb (talk) 12:37, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
I Will proceed then, to re-add the monarchs. GoodDay (talk) 12:40, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
Well, pardon me, @ProcrastinatingReader:, but I read your conclusion as stating that, although there was consensus within the narrow context of this "vote", there's no consensus for this to be included in any Year article. If that's not what you were trying to say, I must contest this closure. Deb (talk) 12:06, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
It's unclear whether there's consensus for it to be in any year article. But, in this discussion, there was consensus for it to be in every year article if it's in any year article (i.e. consistency). I understand the status quo as being that it is in the other year articles, so it follows it should be in every constituent country's year article, until there is consensus to change its presence (or appearance) on all of them. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 12:35, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
Further more, he's 're-added' the prince & princess of Wales in some of the articles, in defiance of an earlier RFC which had an overwhelming consensus to exclude the prince & princess of Wales. GoodDay (talk) 12:10, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

In the meantime, I'm preparing a new RFC on my sandbox covering all UK-related Year in Place articles, in accordance with the second half of your decision. GoodDay (talk) 10:07, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

@ProcrastinatingReader: in compliance with result of the advised follow up RFC, the monarchs have been deleted from all Year in constituent country articles. GoodDay (talk) 21:19, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Tasks for volunteerEdit

Hello all. I have a Wiki volunteer starting shortly and was looking for the best tasks for her skill set. She is an English Literature and Creative Writing student, keen on using and developing her English language skills and I wondered whether we have a list of Wales-related articles in need of a rewrite or grammar corrections etc? Or any other tasks you might think would be a good fit? Many thanks Jason.nlw (talk) 15:09, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

A good place to start is Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wales#Open_tasks. Also on the project page there is a table of articles listed according to importance and class. There are many top importance articles needing work, depending on how familiar the student is with Wikipedia. Tony Holkham (Talk) 15:51, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
Fab. Thanks Tony Holkham. Jason.nlw (talk) 10:00, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

FAR noticeEdit

I have nominated Sasha (DJ) for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Hog Farm Talk 17:32, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Robert Evans (writer)Edit

This article is in pretty bad shape, WP-wise, and the subject is looking for help at Wikipedia:Help_desk#My_wikipedia_page. For the interested. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:55, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Very poor shape indeed. But it’s also a paid-for piece, which puts it out-of-bounds for me. KJP1 (talk) 13:41, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
Looks ripe for AfD to me, at best the subject is claiming notability by association. It's more of an occasional scriptwriter and actor's CV than a Wikipedia article. Sionk (talk) 16:42, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
I agree. AfD seems the right route for this. Four distinct SPA throw-away user names at work, including an IP address. Reeks of paid editing. No evidence of notability.  Velella  Velella Talk   18:05, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Rivers of Wales and their lengthsEdit

There has been a discussion at River Dee, Wales about the length of the River. The 1910 Encyclopaedia Britannica cites it as 70 miles which just about goes from Farndon to the exit sluices at Llyn Tegid. Some other well know rivers such as the River Thames provide no source for the length which just gives a figure for two different lengths from the two disputed sources to a point off Canvey Island. The River Teifi and River Tywi rely on the Welsh Academy Encyclopaedia of Wales published in 2008. If anyone has a copy of that esteemed publication in either English or Cymraeg, would they be kind enough to quote a suitable ref and a length. FWIW the actual length of the Dee from Point of Ayr to its source appears to be around 110 miles as measured on a 1:25000 OS map. Thanks  Velella  Velella Talk   14:53, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Velella - as you note, the issue is wider than just the Dee, indeed it's one that affects rivers throughout not just Wales but the whole of Britain. I'm attempting to secure a copy of the WA Encyc of Wales myself - will let you know if I'm successful! best wishes Geopersona (talk) 08:28, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

RFC on lead of devolution in the United kingdomEdit

Their is an RFC going on here which may be of interest to editors who are interested in Wales.--Llewee (talk) 16:10, 26 January 2022 (UTC)