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Hamburg tournamentsEdit

Hello tennis community.
Wanting some help/consensus with regards to Hamburg European Open and German Open (WTA) articles. As far as I can tell, these tournaments were actually a combined men's and women's tournament (German Championships) until 1979 when the women's event moved from Hamburg to West Berlin. Due to this, a new women's Hamburg tournament was created for 1982–83, returned in 1987 before being discontinued in 2002. A third women's tournament was then created with the same name as the men's in 2021.
My question is in regards to previous champions and number of articles that should exist. There was already a third article titled WTA Hamburg with information regarding the women's tournament from 1982 to 2002. This was somehow merged into Hamburg European Open without, from what I could see, any discussion to reach consensus.
As they were clearly the same tournament, run simultaneously up to and including the 1978 tournament (for 60-odd editions), I'm not sure that is seems completely appropriate that they are separated whilst the WTA Hamburg tournament became absorbed into the Hamburg European Open article. The WTA Hamburg tournament only had 18 editions and were not even run concurrently with the men's tournament. From 1979, the German Open men's and women's events, whilst not held at the same venue, were usually run in consecutive weeks. The WTA Hamburg event was held at times a few months after the men's tournament in Hamburg.
I'm not quite sure what the solution should be. As there are now men's and women's events at the Hamburg European Open, I don't think that there is an argument to merge the two articles, unless having two separate articles (1. German Open, with men's and women's history until 2018, and 2. Hamburg European Open, men's and women's history from 2019 – which hardly seems ideal). Looking at the respective official pages, the Hamburg open seems to cite tradition of the men's event without mentioning the women's event ([1]) and on the women's German Open page, they seem to only acknowledge the event since the move to Berlin ([2]). This could support the following changes:

  • German Open (WTA) with history from 1979 (Berlin championships only)
  • Hamburg European Open with shared men's and women's history until 1978. Include WTA Hamburg (1982–2022) and Hamburg Open (women's) from 2021 on this page.

I could not find any information on whether when women's German Open moved to Berlin, that they also continued to compete for the same trophy as this should support that all history be inclusive in the same article.
For the time being, I think both articles need expanding (and keeping as is might just be the way forward anyway). Hoping to hear all your thoughts on the topic. Thanks in advance. Eccy89 (talk) 13:11, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

This has been done with lots and lots of tournaments e.g. the Belgian Open (showing as a WTA event only) from 1987 was another combined event called the Belgian International Championships (f. 1899), They have been created by just using the ATP or WTA sites as source without bothering to research the tournaments histories properly IMO, another case in point the mens mens Swiss Open and womens WTA Swiss Open were combined events who's history is directly linked to the Swiss International Championships (same tournament) which ive just created recently to address this issue.--Navops47 (talk) 09:15, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
Mens Belgian Open Championships womens Belgian Open (tennis) two seperate articles, first called the Belgian Championships it became the Beligian International Championships sometime later, should be a merged to one page, I dont know how you do it though.--Navops47 (talk) 09:32, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Stats gone from WTAtennis.com profiles?Edit

There used to be singles and doubles record (win-loss) and career prize money stats, but not anymore - not on all profiles (i know higher ranked players still got them). Is there an alternative way to see those stats? I only found a seperate source for prize money [3]. Pelmeen10 (talk) 18:36, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

We have web archives for a reason.Tvx1 15:12, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
You can not update pages of active players using web archives. Pelmeen10 (talk) 13:01, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Davis Cup infobox, side effectsEdit

Why does the Davis Cup infobox cause the word "Found Nickname" & other such wordings, to appear before a national team's opening? GoodDay (talk) 20:18, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

I guess you need to show us what you mean. When I look at Template:Infobox tennis cup team I see no parameter for found nickname. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:11, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
The "Nickname" parameter was the cause. I see you've removed it from the United States men's national tennis team page. GoodDay (talk) 22:08, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
There's a few other parameters causing the same type of problems. GoodDay (talk) 22:41, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
SWinxy used Module:Check for unknown parameters in {{Infobox tennis cup team}} without specifying what to do in the rendered page for unknown parameters .[4] I have created Category:Pages using infobox tennis cup team with unknown parameters and specified the page should be added to it.[5] PrimeHunter (talk) 04:28, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
The module emits a preview warning for it, and I didn't bother making a category because I was lazy. SWinxy (talk) 04:39, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Proposal to restructure the WTA Tour sidebarEdit

I would like to restructure the current WTA Tour sidebar so it closely mimics/matches the ATP Tour one. The problem is, the many WTA tournament categories are divided by eras: 1990–2008, 2009–2020,.., per name change, rather than just by categories: WTA 1000, 500, 250, etc. In 2021, the WTA followed in ATP Tour's footsteps of the naming conventions for their tournament categories, matching the aforementioned categories with the ATP ones, wherein it even updated the old tourn. categories with the newest names on its website. (example: 1990 WTA Tour)
The steps needed to execute this change are:

1. Merge Tier I and Premier Mandatory/5 tournaments in the Premier tourn. page in WTA 1000;
2. Merge Tier II and Premier tournaments in the Premier tourn. page in WTA 500;
3. Move WTA Premier Mandatory/5 contents to WTA 1000, redirect Premier tournaments page to WTA 500,
4. Merge Tiers III, IV and V and International tourn. into WTA 250.
5. Reorganize WTA sidebar similar to the ATP one (using text alignment left or center).
WTA Tour sidebar

My question is: Will this be a better improvement, practically and aesthetically, for the WTA Tour's sidebar? Hopefully, other editors @ABC paulista, Letcord, Tennisedu, Sportsfan77777, Wolbo, Tennishistory1877, Dicklyon, and Loginnigol: will weigh on the matter so we can reach a common ground. The end goal is to make the sidebar more convenient for future readers, so it's more user-friendly and less jumbled up, straight to the point. Qwerty284651 (talk) 17:17, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

@Qwerty284651: I like the cleaner look very much, and with the Grand Slam tournaments on top. I guess my concern would be about the few articles that use the template (I think this only affects 12 articles). Wouldn't they each require a rewrite? I look at a page like WTA Tier IV tournaments where it talks all about Tier IV events with no correlation in the proposed chart. In the current chart we see that it was part of five tiers, but not so in the new chart. So while the prose talks about it merging, we don't see it in relation to other contemporary events. We also permanently lose links to the older aspect of the WTA tour. It makes it much more difficult to ever find WTA Tier IV tournaments or WTA International tournaments. I'm wondering if your new chart should be the main chart we see for ease of use, but that we may need a separate chart only for defunct aspects of the WTA Tour. If we did that the articles wouldn't need a rewrite. Or perhaps we use something like your new charts for current aspects of the tour and give it a new template name? Then use the old template on pages such as WTA Tier IV tournaments? The other thing about both charts. The ITF, Davis Cup, and Billie Jean King Cup aren't part of the WTA yet we keep them in the charts for convenience. I have no issue with that. But then why is the Hopman Cup missing? It seems like it should be part of both charts until it is defunct. Those are my quick musings for the moment. Cheers. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:55, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
@Fyunck(click):, I agree with your concern regarding the loss of links to the defunct tournament articles; this gives us two options:
1. We could use the current sidebar for the defunct tourn. – maybe adding a wikilink of some sort in the current sidebar which would link to the new one – and vice versa, backlink the new sidebar with the current tournament's formats/categories: WTA 1000, 500 & 250 to the current sidebar, so they link to each other aka are interchangeable.
OR
2. Rewrite the outdated tournaments' articles, so the subsequent formats superseding them, are mentioned in the prose. This includes, WTA Tier series I – V, International tournaments, and the Premier tourn. page. I was going to propose merging (via redirecting) and splitting of the aforementioned articles, but that would just remove any links to the previous formats as if they didn't exist. And the goal here is to preserve the past but bring the present to the fore by linking the two.
Hopefully other editors will weigh in on the matter so we can reach common ground. As for the Hopman Cup, the event was replaced by ATP Cup, a male-only tournament between 2020–2022, BUT it's said to return next year under a new name as a mixed-gender event and will replace ATP Cup. We will see. Qwerty284651 (talk) 23:58, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
Remember, the Hopman Cup was replaced "in the schedule" by the ATP Cup. It was never canceled nor permanently replaced. It was only supposed to miss one season, but then the pandemic hit and two delays happened. Then it was to begin anew in 2023 in France. Now it appears that the poorly conceived ATP Cup is gone and a reformatted Hopman Cup will appear in 2023, now billed as the United Cup. I hope so as the HC was simply a joy to watch to start the year. Fyunck(click) (talk) 03:46, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
I would hold off adding United Cup, sanctioned by the ITF, in both sidebars' subheading until the announcement's official. Qwerty284651 (talk) 16:45, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
@Fyunck(click), an update: I looked at men's categories for ATP 500 and ATP 250 tournaments series from 1990-2008 and the 2 series "ATP Championship Series" (1990–99) and "ATP International Series Gold" (2000–08) are merged into 1 article, one for each category. There isn't any sidebars linking to the current category, except for that each old article is linked to its respective current category with a main template link atop the article, which, in my opinion, is sufficient. The main/latest article can have wikilinks linking back to those articles, which should suffice. I looked at the {{ATP sidebar navbox}}'s history and there don't seem to have been any previous iterations thereof, which mentioned the old format events in any capacity.
My point is, this could be done the same for the wta tour events for all categories, wherein the current categories, namely WTA 250, 500 and 1000, are removed from the current sidebar, leaving it intact on all relevant pages, and with a main template and wikilinks for backilinking to connect the 2, I guess you could say, "eras".
Was going to make a wikilink on both sidebars that connects the two, but that would just look weird...or with the {{Switcher}} template that displays both on the same article or one at a time, which would probably be against WP:MOS and unconventional.
Tell me, what are your thoughts on this idea. Do you agree with it? Do you not agree? Stand by your original proposal or would do you propose something new? Qwerty284651 (talk) 22:20, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
I'm still chewing on it. I might miss those old events not being there... perhaps in a collapsable section? One thing... this is a tour tournament sidebar. We should not have a ranking link. Also, if you have a section called ITF events then that would include the majors in that section. So perhaps "other events" would be better? I also noticed it says U.S. Open, which is wrong... those periods need to go. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:35, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
Feedback to your proposals:
1. See modified version ↓ below ↓:
2. ATP sidebar navbox has the ATP ranking link. Why should the WTA sidebar not have one? OR Do we remove the ATP rankings from the ATP sidebar as well?
3. Slams are under ITF, true, however, the ATP sidebar has them listed separately? Similar case to question 2. Do we merge the two or replace ITF header with other events, albeit ITF specifically lists non-slam itf events, despite the latter being part of it.
4. Removed periods from U.S.   Done
Modified version

Note: Couldn't figure out how to align "Defunct tournaments" center or gray it out.

The sidebar looks too long when expanded; conversely, when collapsed looks just fine. Qwerty284651 (talk) 15:44, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
I agree it looks too long if expanded. Collapsed would be the way to go if we keep it. The ATP has a ranking list but I don't think it should... also look at the titles. The one you are modifying says "WTA Tour tournaments" as a title, that should not be rankings. The men's header says "Men's pro tennis" which is a little more accommodating for rankings. Really both tours should be the same style so it's also a question of which we like better. If we went with the men's style you wouldn't have to worry about the centering issue. With the ITF issue, so much is semantics. Looking at the ATP tour, when the ATP comes out with a calendar it includes all the ATP specific tournaments, the four majors, Davis Cup, and Olympics. Those are part of the tour schedule even though some are sponsored by the ITF. The Challenger and Futures are not included. So calling headers "Grand Slam tournaments" and "ATP Tour" is really confusing since the Grand Slam events are part of the ATP tour calendar. And the Olympics are handled by the IOC not the ITF. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:25, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
So like I said it's a bit confusing for readers in how we want to handle the semantics of the tour. I understand how it breaks down and what we are trying to convey, but many casual readers will not. Even the official WTA calendar makes it confusing as to what is WTA and what is not. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:47, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

New commentsEdit

@Fyunck(click): Take your time with this one. It's a doozy.

I looked into the ATP & WTA's structures. This is what I found.
Excerpts from the ATP and ATP Tour wiki articles, respectively, below.

ATP
The ATP Tour comprises ATP Masters 1000, ATP 500, and ATP 250 and the ATP Cup.[1] The ATP also oversees the ATP Challenger Tour,[2] a level below the ATP Tour, and the ATP Champions Tour for seniors. The Grand Slam tournaments, the Olympic tennis tournament, the Davis Cup, and the entry-level ITF World Tennis Tour do not fall under the purview of the ATP, but are overseen by the International Tennis Federation (ITF) instead and the International Olympic Committee (IOC) for the Olympics. In these events, however, ATP ranking points are awarded, with the exception of the Olympics. Players and doubles teams with the most ranking points (collected during the calendar year) play in the season-ending ATP Finals, which, from 2000–2008, was run jointly with the ITF. The details of the professional tennis tour are:
Category Tournaments Winner's ranking points Average prize money[3] Governing body
Grand Slam 4 2,000 US$24,266,872 ITF
ATP Finals 1 1,100–1,500 US$7,250,000 ATP
ATP Masters 1000 9 1000 US$5,007,832 ATP
ATP 500 13 500 US$1,803,832 ATP
ATP 250 39 250 US$615,151 ATP
ATP Cup 1 750 (max) US$15,000,000 (2020) ATP
Davis Cup 1 0 US$15,300,000 (2021) ITF
Olympics 1 0 0 IOC/ITF
ATP Challenger Tour 178 80 to 125 $64,901 ATP
ITF Men's Circuit 534 18 to 35 $17,798 ITF
ATP Tour
ATP Tour tournaments

The ATP Tour comprises ATP Masters 1000, ATP 500, and ATP 250. The ATP also oversees the ATP Challenger Tour, a level below the ATP Tour, and the ATP Champions Tour for seniors. Grand Slam tournaments, a small portion of the Olympic tennis tournament, the Davis Cup, the Hopman Cup and the introductory level Futures tournaments do not fall under the auspices of the ATP, but are overseen by the ITF instead and the International Olympic Committee (IOC) for the Olympics. In these events, however, ATP ranking points are still awarded, with the exception of the Olympics and Hopman Cup. The four-week ITF Satellite tournaments were discontinued in 2007.

Players and doubles teams with the most ranking points (collected during the calendar year) play in the season-ending ATP Finals, which, from 2000 to 2008, was run jointly with the International Tennis Federation (ITF). The details of the professional tennis tour are:

Event Number Total prize money (USD) Winner's ranking points Governing body
Grand Slam 4 See individual articles 2,000 ITF
ATP Finals 1 4,450,000 1,100–1,500 ATP (2009–present)
ATP Tour Masters 1000 9 2,450,000 to 3,645,000 1000 ATP
ATP Tour 500 13 755,000 to 2,100,000 500 ATP
ATP Tour 250 40 416,000 to 1,024,000 250 ATP
ATP Challenger Tour 178 35,000 to 168,000 80 to 125 ATP
ITF Men's Circuit 534 15,000 and 25,000 10 to 20 ITF
Olympics 1 See individual articles 0 IOC

The WTA and WTA Tour articles are not worded the same as both ATP articles, but it's safe to say the WTA and WTA Tour are structured similarly to their ATP equivalents/counterparts.
Based off of the info above, I updated the ATP and WTA sidebars so they reflect the correct info (presuming what is written on those 4 Wiki articles is accurate) with some minor modifications and tweaks, mostly technical stuff.

New ATP / WTA sidebar versions




(Technical) Notes:

1. For WTA sidebar: You can't have sidebars with collapsible lists AND have bullets. It's not feasible. The sidebar's broken and just gives you a row of raw wikitext.

2. One can, however, configure alignment left/center for collapsible lists.

3. v. 5:

a) has enlarged section headers to stand out more, although the Challenger's (non-linked section) black font stands out a bit too much.
b) left the section headers inside the collapsible lists the original size, since they are defunct, and "technically" subheaders of "Defunct tournaments"

4. The Olympics are governed by both the ITF and IOC, but since I couldn't think of a way to place the Olympics under 2 diff. sections, I decided to have them under the IOC only.

5 Removed the photo in WTA sidebar to make up for the added length when the list is expanded. We can survive without the logo.

Notes:
1. Placement and location of ATP, Hopman and United Cup within the sidebars will be determined eventually.
Good to know:

ITF → Hopman C.
ATP → ATP C.
TBD → United C.

2. ATP v. 2 vs. v. 3: Should the ATP Challenger section be left as its section or be placec under the ATP Tour section?

3. Not sure, whether to have the sections be named ATP/WTA Tour or ATP/WTA. (second sections, after ITF)

* Small remark: There are predecessor articles for the ATP 500 and 250 main pages (namely International series gold and [[ATP_International_Series|International series]) as per my previous comment, which were never included in the ATP sidebar, the stats (1990-2008) from the old ones are copied to the latest articles, which indicates no need to have them listed in the ATP sidebar. Hence why I think the Defunct section should be removed, but If you want, I can leave it there.

→ Summary: ITF and ATP/WTA are 2 separate tennis governing bodies, 2 separate entities. ATP/WTA divide into ATP/WTA Tours, which comprise of: the Masters/1000s, 500, 250, Challengers. ITF sanctions the slams, Davis/Fed Cup and the ITF Futures.

References

Takes from all of this: This should paint a better picture of the raw structure of the ATP and WTA (and ATP and WTA Tours) AND the ITF and inform the casual reader, skimming/perusing the articles, of what is the rough layout of said Tours, which is the main goal. Qwerty284651 (talk) 00:24, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

One oddity between the men and women tours are the minor leagues. For decades the men have had a Challenger level tour and the women have not. The men had ITF futures which paid $25,000 or less and everything paid above that was in the Challenger Tour... I think it limits out at $125,000. It was separated by money. The women had sort of the same money structure of $15,000 to $25,000 for the lower lever ITF but everything paid above that, up to $125,000 was also in the ITF... no Challenger level tour. Recently the women added the WTA 125s as their Challenger tour, but I believe all their $30,000 to $100,000 events are still in the ITF. So today, the mens ITF/Challenger tour is nothing like the womens ITF/Challenger tour. You are correct that the main tours are as close as no matter. The ITF and WTA/ATP are separate governing bodies, but they are linked by more than a handshake. They work together on points and schedules. Players can't play in ATP/WTA events without an ITF registration card that states the name they play under, and the country that backs them. Fyunck(click) (talk) 03:45, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
Could we make both the same and do it more like the following:
Another style option for both
This is just a quick output by me but it would show readers the events by power level structure: Major league, minor league, minor-minor league. Then defunct or superseded tiers, and finally rankings. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:13, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
Here is the thing. You put emphasizes on power aka tournament ranks, I, on the other hand, prefer division by ITF and WTA. So, I decided to meet you half way and still include ATP/WTA Tour calendar, (the calendar part is throwing me off), and maybe divide the first section by either ITF and ATP/WTA Tour or just iTF and the TOurs event categories, since they are within purview of the ATP/WTA calendar.
I moved Davis/BJK Cup and Olympics under ITF, even though you prefer them listed in order of power/importance, which puts them above the Tour categ. events, but within ITF (technically ITF partly governs Olym. alongside IOC, which is why I think it belongs there as well).
WTA new versions


Years in Defunct tiers can be removed if not needed.


Do we keep or omit "tournaments" after 1000/500/250?

Wikilinked WTA Tour in top; ITF in bold.

ATP and WTA side-by-side


Side note: Decided not to include a defunct tiers section in ATP sidebar, because the ATP 250 defunct events page is incomplete; it's missing the champions list from 1990–1999, so called ATP World Series.

Hopefully, the above versions will help us find common ground for both sidebars. Qwerty284651 (talk) 23:40, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
Of those I think I would go with #2. For the men I would remove the challenger finals. I'm not sure about the mens challenger tour 125s either since that is included in the ATP Challenger Tour link. I would have the header for that section unlinked and simply have an ATP Challenger tour and an ITF tour. I'm not sold it's better for our readers but I'm not going to argue about it. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:33, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
Removed the challenger finals. A proposal: We could either have only an ATP Challenger tour link or both challenger and challenger 125s.
ATP/WTA versions


Do we keep the ATP Tour calendar section or have it be similar to the wta sidebar on the left?

The only men's challenger tour 125s link I could find, that you say is contained in the ATP Challenger Tour, is in the ATP sidebar. The very sidebar we are discussing about here. By removing the 125s link, there won't be any link on the ATP sidebar or the ATP Challenger tour article linking to the 125. One would have to look it up manually if they knew of its existence. Qwerty284651 (talk) 17:48, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
Ok then I'm confused with our articles. The ATP Challenger Tour 125 says the 125s are the highest level Challenger events, because they give 125 points. On the ATP Challenger Tour article there is the top section called "Challenger 125 ($150,000+H / €127,000+H)" that give 125 points. What's the difference or is the wording for the 125 Tour woefully inadequate? It's very confusing. When I look at the 125 list from "ATP Challenger Tour" article, the "ATP Challenger Tour 125" article, and the "2022 ATP Challenger Tour" the events don't match. It seems like someone simply created an ATP 125 Tour article because one exists for the WTA and maybe it should be folded into the ATP Challenger Tour article? Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:05, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

New commentsEdit

  • It really doesn't have to be this complicated, Qwerty. They are just simple sidebars for navigation, so keep them clear and simple. The tournaments should be all under the ATP/WTA Tours since they're all part of it. The governing bodies of the tournaments are unnecessary details here, they are all mentioned in the main articles as it should be. Here are another two clearer and simpler versions. ForzaUV (talk) 19:36, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
Grand Slam article + National representation


One thing, in most of our charts the category is "National representation" not team competition. I would retitle that and put Olympics under that header. And ATP Cup, since it's now defunct, would be removed. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:19, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
Pretty much all tournaments played are team competitions, since wherever there're doubles played, it's a team event. Can't think of any equivalent title for now.
I would still keep all 4 majors listed for quicker access, instead of just Grand Slam tournaments. ATP Cup is to be replaced by United Cup as of next year, a Hopman Cup equivalent, so we'll see where that one will go. Qwerty284651 (talk) 20:44, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
Fyunck's got a valid point I think. I updated the two versions I made by adding a National representation header and they look good but the ATP Cup needs to stay for now until it's officially not part of the tour. I also prefer one link to the Grand Slam article to links to each tournament but it's no big deal. ForzaUV (talk) 21:10, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
I guess I can live with "National representation". Also, I would split the Wta challenger and itf section in WTA into 2 so it matches the ATP sidebar. Qwerty284651 (talk) 21:25, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
So you are saying something like the following is what we should expect for 2023? Also Laver Cup is part of the tour. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:38, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
So something like this at the start of 2023?


I totally forgot about Laver Cup. Yes, something like that come 2023 or when the new ATP/WTA calendars come out, which is usually late November or December. I would make ITF Tour in WTA bold and use "(Inter)national" instead of "National/international" representation to keep the header name in 1 line. We can implement the version with ATP Cup and then replace it with United Cup, when the new calendars are released. Qwerty284651 (talk) 00:43, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
I edited the ones submitted by Fyunck above a bit. I kept the header as National representation and Laver Cup out of it because it's an invitational event where players don't even play three-set matches, only two-set matches with a tiebreak. If they look good to you now, you can submit them and update them when the new calendars come out. ForzaUV (talk) 03:04, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
I restored wta challenger tour header, so there's a link to the tour itself, not just the wta 125; narrowed the sidebars a bit. Will replace the current versions of the templates tomorrow. Qwerty284651 (talk) 03:42, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
I would disagree with Laver Cup being removed. It is part of the tour schedule. Heck... Davis Cup, ATP Cup, and Olympics are sort of invitational also. And is the ladies ITF now called futures? Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:08, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
Fyunck, Laver Cup is not the same as DC, AC or Olympics and I'm sure you're aware of the difference. In Laver Cup we can see Kyrgios ranked #1000 and still gets invited to represent the "World", moreover there is basically nothing at stake for the players at the event unlike the other competitions. Next Gen Finals is also part of the tour and it's not included in the sidebar. I'm not sure if even the ITF men's tour is still called futures, you can remove it from both if you like.
Qwerty, from what I understand, the "WTA 125" is the WTA challenger tour. Unlike the ATP challenger tour which has different tournament categories, 125, 110, 100 etc, there is only one category in the WTA challenger tour which is WTA 125. It's redundant to have them both in the sidebar directing to the same article. ForzaUV (talk) 06:14, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
But to be honest, the ATP cup was a poor man's Davis Cup. We don't include it in the performance tables for that reason. It probably shouldn't be there either but the Hopman Cup should always have been there. In looking around google, many men's ITF events are still called futures. I couldn't find any women's events. The ATP doesn't have an ATP 125 tour. They have a Challenger tour that happens to include 125 events. The ITF has multi-level payouts too but we don't go listing each money tier. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:18, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
By matching the width you made (1990-2020) goes under Defunct tiers. Fair enough with the futures but then we can't call the WTA 125 a challenger tour since no women's events are called challenger, are there? Let's call it a WTA 125 tour. Davis Cup is a dead competition Fyunck, it's been dead for years. If anything, the ATP Cup was the much better and higher quality event. It was played at the start of the season, players were fresh, motivated and they did want to play in it. It was an exciting and competitive event and I hope the news about it being replaced is not true but most likely we're getting a new ATP/WTA Cup. Hopman Cup was fun but that's it, at least this "United Cup" could be more competitive since there will be ranking points at stake. We gotta wait and see. ForzaUV (talk) 08:52, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
@ForzaUV, let's be real here, Davis and BJK Cup, despite their rather new format, which is not appealing to all fans, are still a part of the ATP and WTA Tour. So, I would keep them. We'll just leave ATP Cup there until it's replaced. Laver Cup is an odd ball...It could stay there or not...Forza, you are right about WTA 125. The WTA Challenger Tour link I added was a redirect, making them technically the same tour, which does not have any futures, what Fyunck pointed out.
@Fyunck(click), I widened both sidebars, so the Defunct tiers header is in the same line. Since you seem to want them both be the same width. Qwerty284651 (talk) 12:18, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
I changed WTA 125 Challenger tour to WTA 125 (Challenger), which is pretty much the same. I also reversed Defunct list so it goes in order: first the Tier Series and then the Premier and International. Qwerty284651 (talk) 16:43, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
Davis and BJK Cups are still the most historic team events we have on both tours, they must be included of course. I was just expressing how that ATP Cup has been a much better event than the Davis Cup in recent years and that's about it. No issue with your edits. ForzaUV (talk) 17:57, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
Pardon, @ForzaUV, for misinterpreting your comment about Davis and BJK Cup. Qwerty284651 (talk) 18:09, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

New commentsEdit

We really see the ATP Cup differently and on different ends of the scale, but that's for another conversation on another day. Our browsers must be different since "Defunct tiers (1990–2020)" all fits on one line in Chrome. I would not have left it otherwise had I realized some browsers had an issue. Another quip since we are working on these... we have defunct tiers in the womens sidebar, why not the mens? Since they are for navigation shouldn't we also have defunct ATP International Series Gold and ATP International Series and Grand Prix Super Series so that both sidebars are consistent? Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:51, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

@Fyunck(click), Grand Prix Super Series, the predecessor of the Masters tournaments, includes tournaments from 1970–1989, . The 2 sidebars, we are discussing about, cover tournaments from 1990-Present. Also, ATP International series, i.e. the precursor of the 250 events, is missing list of singles and doubles winners from 1990–1999. I would not link to articles that don't have the whole data. Qwerty284651 (talk) 19:34, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
The sidebars have been always limited to the ATP Tour so I'd stick to that since we would not know what to keep and remove if we decided to add tournament series from the multiple defunct tours. We might though add a defunct tournaments collapsed list for Grand Slam Cup and WCT Finals. The international series and the gold series are linked in the lead of ATP 250/500, including them in the sidebar is unnecessary imo. ForzaUV (talk) 22:00, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
Why would we add defunct tournaments, Grand Slam Cup and WCT Finals, from before 1990, when the ATP Tour begin, in the ATP Tour sidebar? The WTA sidebar's defunct tournaments lists are tournaments from when the WTA Tour was incepted, not before it. Qwerty284651 (talk) 22:35, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
If those events are linked in the lead of ATP 250/500 then if they were linked in the same way for the women I assume we wouldn't need a defunct collapsed list for the WTA. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:04, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
I didn't feel like linking the WTA defunct tier articles to the current WTA ones with navboxes and main templates and whatnot. So, despite having the ATP articles linked I still added the defunct tourn. articles in the ATP sidebar to match the WTA sidebar's defunct list. Anyway, here are the latest versions for both sidebars with defunct lists. Qwerty284651 (talk) 00:10, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
Both sidebars with collapsed defunct tier lists

I suppose I could keep making little tweaks to my own perfect liking, but these look fine. They are very visually friendly, they are easily used for linkability, they are pretty close to the same so readers won't be confused in the least when checking out the men's or women's tours. You can't ask for much more. The only question mark will be if/when they officially drop the ATP Cup and officially add the United Cup. The ATP cup at that time may have to go in the defunct events. But I'm sold otherwise. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:04, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Well, I guess this is the final confirmation for replacing the current sidebars with the above versions. As far as ATP Cup is concerned, will supplant it with United Cup and move it to the Defunct list in due time. Thank you, @Fyunck(click) and ForzaUV: for your input and contributions. Best, Qwerty284651 (talk) 19:48, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
@Fyunck(click), I added United Cup in both sidebars as previously agreed upon. See below:
My question is do I locate the Cup underneath Davis and BJK Cup, respectively, and above the Olympics or position below it, given the latter is more prestigious or would you rather have the Cup on top since they are held annually in comparison to the quadrennial Olympics event? Qwerty284651 (talk) 23:45, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Tennis rankings templatesEdit

Nomination for deletion of Template:Current ATP singles rankingsEdit

 Template:Current ATP singles rankings has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. Qwerty284651 (talk) 05:19, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Current ATP doubles individual rankingsEdit

 Template:Current ATP doubles individual rankings has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. Qwerty284651 (talk) 05:19, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Current WTA singles rankingsEdit

 Template:Current WTA singles rankings has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. Qwerty284651 (talk) 05:19, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Current WTA doubles individual rankingsEdit

 Template:Current WTA doubles individual rankings has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. Qwerty284651 (talk) 05:19, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

@Qwerty284651: Why would you want to delete them? ForzaUV (talk) 03:07, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
@ForzaUV, see the discussion here at the bottom of the page. Qwerty284651 (talk) 03:16, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
@Qwerty284651 I made a new rankings draft in case the consensus is to delete them. Move the draft to the main space if I'm not active and please do not put the tables side by side because these tables need to be updated weekly and it's much easier to update them via the visual editor which doesn't work when the tables are next to each other. You can though transclude them side by side in the ATP/WTA tours articles. Best. ForzaUV (talk) 05:52, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
@ForzaUV, if you have display:inline-table set in all tables without col-begin or valign=top, you can have them side by side and still be able to edit them via the visual editor. I've tried it and it works. And why are we having this discussion here and not at the TfD? If you place your vote in the TfD nomination, you might outweigh the vote or reach a draw. Qwerty284651 (talk) 12:22, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
I know it works with inline tables but I kinda wanted to keep each ranking in its own section so there would be no need for labels when the ranking tables are transcluded. I made the changes anyways but I'm not sure anymore if we should move the draft to the main space when the templates are deleted or just keep it as a draft/sandbox page. I commented here so TennisProject members become aware of the new page and there seems to be a consensus already at TfD, just a matter of time. ForzaUV (talk) 21:25, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
@ForzaUV, you only need 4 labels for 4 templates aka tables, not 8. The race leaderboards were never templates to begin with. They have been just tables for race rankings, that's all. Also, I would first copy paste the respective rankings tables to the 2022 ATP and WTA Tours, not the races tables, because they are already there. And then use labels to transclude them to all articles that use the ranking tables. Darn shame we can't transclude subsections without labels, like we can with whole sections. Qwerty284651 (talk) 21:45, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
So you want to keep updating the race tables in the ATP/WTA tour articles, but the rankings tables to be updated together in a separate page? I thought the the whole point of your proposal is to make it more convenient and faster for editors to update the rankings without hopping from article to another. So why 3 pages when one page is all what we really need? ForzaUV (talk) 22:17, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
@ForzaUV You must have misunderstood me. With "Also, I would first copy paste the respective rankings tables to the 2022 ATP and WTA Tours, not the races tables, because they are already there. And then use labels to transclude them to all articles that use the ranking tables." I meant copy paste as in replace the transcluded ATP singles and ATP Doubles templates with their actual wikitext as if they were tables to 2022 ATP Tour and replace the transcluded templates WTA singles and WTA Doubles with their actual wikitext to 2022 WTA Tour. AND THEN add labels in both 2022 ATP and 2022 WTA Tours pages. Why labels? Because the current 4 templates are transcluded on 6 pages: ATP singles, ATP doubles, WTA singles and WTA doubles need to be replaced. So, FROM the ATP and WTA Tours TRANSCLUDE via labels to the pages listed. So, no need for a new page. The transclusions will be from 2 already existing pages, the 2022 ATP and WTA tours. Makes sense? Qwerty284651 (talk) 22:48, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
Let me break it down for you. 2022 ATP Tour has a Race singles table, a rankings singles template transclusion, underneath ATP race doubles table and a Race doubles template transclusion.
Step 1: Replace the actual {{Template:Current ATP singles rankings}} template transclusion with its wikitext and {{Template:Current ATP doubles individual rankings}} template transclusion with its wikitext so they become regular tables in wikitext.
Step 2: Then add labels before and after both tables INSIDE the 2022 ATP Tour page.
Step 3: And then TRANSCLUDE both tables FROM the ATP Tour page into the pages, that their templates equivalents were transcluded TO.
And then repeat the same for WTA Tour. Which makes it only 2 articles: 2022 ATP Tour and 2022 WTA Tour, to edit to update the ATP Race and Rankings singles and doubles leaderboards for both ATP and WTA every week. You get it now? Qwerty284651 (talk) 23:04, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
Ok I got it without the need for the steps lol. Not that bad but I still feel it'd be better to have all the rankings centralized in one article and the page I made looks neat and clean compared to the long and messy ATP/WTA tours articles. That's my two cents. ForzaUV (talk) 23:42, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
Templates to be soon deleted per consensus reached at TfD. Permalink. @ForzaUV:, I'll take care of the transclusions and everything. Don't worry about it. Qwerty284651 (talk) 03:21, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Champions list enigmaEdit

I made this list of WTA 1000 singles titles and how many times the top 20 has won each tournament.

Singles champions list

SinglesEdit

Titles Player BOC DUB DOH IND MIA MAD CHA BER ROM CAN SAN CIN PHI MOS TOK WUH ZUR BEI Years
 
23   Serena Williams N/A - - 2 8 2 1 - 4 3 - 2 N/A - - - - 1 1999–2016
17   Martina Hingis N/A 1 2 N/A 2 1 2 2 - N/A - 1 5 N/A 1 N/A 1997–2007
15   Steffi Graf 1 N/A 1 3 N/A 1 5 - 2 N/A 1 - 1 N/A - N/A 1990–1996
14   Maria Sharapova N/A - 1 2 - 1 - - 3 - 2 1 N/A - 2 - 1 1 2005–2015
11   Lindsay Davenport - - - 2 - N/A - - - - 1 N/A - - 4 N/A 4 N/A 1997–2005
10   Justine Henin N/A - - 1 - - 2 3 - 2 - - N/A - - N/A 2 - 2002–2007
  Victoria Azarenka N/A - 2 2 3 - - - - - - 2 N/A - - - - 1 2009–2020
9   Conchita Martínez - N/A - - N/A 2 2 4 - - N/A 1 - - N/A - N/A 1993–2000
  Monica Seles - N/A - 2 N/A - 1 2 4 N/A - - - N/A - N/A 1990–2000
  Venus Williams N/A 2 - - 3 - 1 - 1 - - - - - - 1 1 - 1998–2015
  Simona Halep N/A 1 1 1 - 2 N/A 1 3 N/A - N/A - - N/A - 2014–2022
8   Petra Kvitová N/A - 1 - - 3 - - - 1 N/A - N/A - 1 2 - - 2011–2018
7   Kim Clijsters N/A - - 2 2 - - - 1 1 - 1 N/A - - - - - 2003–2010
6   Arantxa Sánchez Vicario - N/A - 2 N/A 1 - 1 2 N/A - - - N/A - N/A 1992–1996
  Amélie Mauresmo N/A - - - - - - 2 2 2 - - - - - N/A - - 2001–2005
  Jelena Janković N/A - - 1 - - 1 - 2 - - 1 N/A 1 - - - - 2007–2010
  Caroline Wozniacki N/A 1 - 1 - - - - - 1 - - N/A - 1 - - 2 2010–2018
5   Gabriela Sabatini 1 N/A - - N/A 2 - 2 - N/A - N/A - N/A - N/A 1991–1992
  Mary Pierce - N/A - - N/A 1 - 1 N/A 1 - - 2 - N/A - N/A 1997–2005
  Dinara Safina N/A - - - - 1 - 1 1 1 - - N/A - 1 N/A - N/A 2008–2009
  Agnieszka Radwańska N/A - - - 1 - - - - 1 N/A - N/A - 1 - - 2 2011–2016
  Iga Świątek N/A - 1 1 1 - N/A 2 - N/A - N/A - N/A - 2021–2022

^ Players with 5+ titles. Active players and records are denoted in bold.

  • 67 champions in 278 events as of the 2022 Guadalajara Open.

N/A's indicate the tournament was not a 2nd tier, while such and such player was active. If they participated in the event but never won it I put .

The ??? are about the player's absence from a tournament. What troubles me is when a player has never played a tournament, which was categorized as a 2nd highest tier tournament: Tier I/Premier Mandatory/5/WTA 1000, and their record is 0–0 at said event, do I put or a N/A.

An interesting case is players coming back from retirement, for instance, Kim Clijsters. When she retired back in 2012, she had not played any subsequent tournament that were instated after her farewell. Having become active again, she hasn't played any of those new tournaments and am not sure whether to put N/A or — in their place. Hopefully, someone can help me clear up this dilemma of mine. Qwerty284651 (talk) 00:50, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Put a dash. What does it matter whether they played it or not? They didn’t win it, period.Tvx1 10:49, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
I was thinking of placing a dash instead of the ???'s, but I'll wait for input from other editors before going through with that decision. Qwerty284651 (talk) 17:46, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
I would prefer blank for both dashes and ???. Anything displayed is a distraction from the wins and it's a big distraction when it's most of the cells. I would make the table sortable with Help:Sorting#Sorting buttons in a separate row. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:15, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
I made the table sortable, but I feel having empty cells instead of dashes would make the table look weird. Qwerty284651 (talk) 17:46, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
Also, I noticed Chicago and Guadalajara, the first and last tournaments columns, were won by players with not enough titles to be included in the list. Chicago and Guadalajara were both one-off events. Do I still keep the columns, so all events are listed, or since nobody's won them I remove them to avoid having columns without any titles listed in them? Qwerty284651 (talk) 17:46, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
Ok, I've looked at this chart a dozen times now and I just can't figure out it's use. Do other press related outlets ever talk about how the top 20 have done at these events? Do we have any sources that tell us this is relevant? It is extremely convoluted and jumbled to my older eyes, and those triple ??? marks don't help at all. On what article is this supposed to be placed because it seems like a chart that has no real reason to exist. I keep looking for the silver lining as to why we need it and I simply don't see it. Convince me. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:37, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
@Fyunck(click), this is what is formerly known as a single titles matrix table. Similar tables are used in the ATP Masters singles records and ATP Masters doubles records articles as well as WTA Tier I page. The aforementioned pages all use these kind of tables, which indicate of the top 20 players, who has won which tournament how many times. I could have listed all the players who've won a title, but that would have made the table waaay too long, so I limited it top 20, i.e. players with 5+ titles, it could be 6+ titles...Anyway...
The ATP articles have only had 12 different events, so those tables are more compact (you know, the one with the Strike Rate). WTA, on the other hand, has had 20 so far and one has to include them all somehow. We, I need it, because I am planning on making a women's WTA 1000 records and statistics articles for both singles and doubles, similar to the men's. And this represents an overview of who won the most titles at what tournament and the overall dominance spread out across the events. I know it's a wide table, too many events, but I am trying to keep it as tidy as possible. Qwerty284651 (talk) 20:03, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
I replaced the ??? and em dashes with hyphens. It should look better now. Qwerty284651 (talk) 20:23, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
That much better. I was also very confused by you wording "how many times the top 20 has won each tournament". That was telling me this is only for players in the top 20 rankings... not a top 20 cutoff. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:28, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
@Tvx1, PrimeHunter, and Fyunck(click): I guess the table is visually more appealing with the hyphens instead of with the em dashes. Since I will be making a WTA 1000 records pages for both singles and doubles in the near future, I didn't want to start a new topic so I decided to post the question here. Does the title "WTA 1000 series singles records and statistics" sound good, or not? Instead of "series" it could contain "events", "tournaments" or leave them out and just have it as "WTA 1000 singles records and statistics". Thoughts? Qwerty284651 (talk) 22:34, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

WikiProject Days of the YearEdit

I have begun the task of adding tennis players to the WikiProject Days of the Year under notable Births. So far, I have added the entire WTA top 200 or so players. This includes many notable players like number 1 Iga Swiatek and number 3 Anett Kontaveit. I have also added a few notable ATP omissions such as Andrey Rublev, Matteo Berrettini, and Carlos Alcaraz. The criteria for inclusion in this project is having a Wiki page and an externally verifiable birthday. As a result, I will be looking to include as many players currently in the WTA and ATP rankings as I can as well as those in older editions of the rankings that have somehow not been listed as notable birth so far.


The eventual goal of this project will see every Birth and Death mention come with an in-line citation, as such I have taken it upon myself to start adding citations for players I notice when adding new players. I have also begun to work backwards from the 31st of December to include in-line citations for absolutely every tennis player added to this project already.


What I ask of you is a few things:

  1. Is there a list of players that WikiProject Tennis has created pages for? This seems like it would be a useful resource to source players from.
  2. Where do I go to suggest the creation of a player page? I just found that WTA 217 Rose Vicens Mas has no Wikipedia article and as such I cannot add her to her birthday, the 25th of June.
  3. Thirdly, sometimes players don't have a date of birth listed on their WTA page, the ITF fail to provide an exact date of birth, and external sources like ESPN, Eurosport, Wimbledon etc. have not created a page for them. These players, however, still have Wikipedia articles in which their birthday is listed. I would appreciate a list of sources that WikiProject Tennis accepts to verify their date of birth.


Sources:

Rosa Vicens Mas | Player Stats & More – WTA Official (wtatennis.com)

Rosa Vicens Mas Tennis Player Profile | ITF (itftennis.com)

Kxcii (talk) 21:46, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

1. There are loads of tennis player with biographies, the super-category Category:Tennis players contains all of them but trawling through them for the ones you're looking for isn't going to be easy.
2. The tennis notability guidelines are based off WP:NTENNIS and WP:GNG. Most tennis players who meet one or both of these already have articles; as Rosa hasn't currently met the NTENNIS requirements, you would need to meet GNG before an article could be created about her.
3. Articles should include the sources for dates of births themselves, in the past many of these articles weren't ideally sourced and the source for the dates of birth my lie in archived versions of sources, or may not have been properly sourced at all. For BLPs you can just remove the dates from the article if you can't verify them. IffyChat -- 20:27, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
ITF used to list full dates of birth but switched a few years ago to age only, perhaps due to the GDPR. This means many articles will now have unverified birthdates as the ITF external link was the sole source. Might be a bit of a pain, but Iffy's suggestion of archived sources may be the best option for citations, using the old ITF profile like so -Claudine Toleafoa (archive). Jevansen (talk) 08:05, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
Anyone else been having problems (for the last week) of viewing WTA Tour player profiles. Like the one linked above for Rosa Vicens Mas, everything pertinent is covered up by a giant banner advertising WTA Finals tickets. Jevansen (talk) 23:42, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
The WTA site has been absolutely horrible for me for quite a while, maybe like 6 months or so. No useful information on it at all for the players except for the rankings history. But for some of the lower-ranked players, like outside the top 150, you can't get accurate stats like a W/L record or anything. And they removed the birthdays from their site as well. The ATP profiles are significantly better. Adamtt9 (talk) 01:37, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Accessibility issues with performance timelinesEdit

I've noticed the heavy majority of the performance timelines contain non-WCAG-complaint absence abbreviations, NH, NMS, to name a few. The contrast between the background and text color does not pass neither WCAG AA nor WCAG AAA. I've thus far come across 2 of such variants: style="background:#ececec; color:gray" |N/A (dark gray) and style="background:#f0f1f4; color:#ccc" |N/A (light gray). Replacing those with {{n/a}} would solve the issue, either via AWB or other means.

I would not have raised this issue had I been apt in making the replacement myself, but still, awareness needs to be raised for broader reach and implement a new approach, wherein every subsequent perf. timeline made by an editor would use n/a instead of the aforementioned 2 contrast-lacking alternatives. I need others opinions on this matter to suggest how this should be addressed and dealt with. Qwerty284651 (talk) 18:41, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm a little hazy on some of this. I would agree that the text should be in a dark color instead of grey, but what's wrong with a keyed abbreviation? N/A is not the same as not held and there is a key to explain that. Our standard guideline color coding for the text is supposed to be #696969, and in a white background. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:10, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
I am not against the keyed abbreviation, but moreso with the text color coding contrast for NH and NMS and their equivalents. That should be fixed. By replacing those, I did not mean replace NH and NMS but replace their style params that precede them in wikitext by encapsulating the two abbrev. in the N/A template, which passes both WCAG AA and WCAG AAA. Qwerty284651 (talk) 19:13, 1 November 2022 (UTC)::It would be also useful to add in a hidden comment in the {{performance key}} code, which would inform editors to use n/a, instead of the styled parameters, I mentioned earlier, that don't meet accessibility standards, thereby avoiding future misuse of said params. Qwerty284651 (talk) 19:22, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
Our guideline charts had been checked by compliancy and accessibility and we corrected issues years ago. I'm not sure I see an issue with our guideline charts. Not Held is much more concise for our readers, and the color schemes looks ok to me. If you are saying that editors have gone away from the guidelines in creating charts then those need to be corrected. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:44, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
Not the charts, but their application in the performance timeline itself. The performance key is just fine. It's when it's used in the perf. timeline table with the low contrast between the background and text color of the abbreviations used to indicate the absence of the player, such as NH, NMS, DNQ seems to be done right. For example: NH is encoded with #767676 which fails WCAG AAA, using #595959 instead meets the minimum 7:1 contrast criteria AAA requires. #696969 in a white background, the proposed guideline, fails AAA as well, unfortunately. That is for white background. The other 2 n/a variations I mentioned earlier [6] and [7] fail both AA and AAA by a large margin, which are in tables in other tennis articles, at least the ones I've come across. They can all be mass substituted with the right tools, but consensus would need to be reached first. Qwerty284651 (talk) 21:46, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
Can you give me an article with an example? Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:10, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
Swiatek and Sabatini with white background and #767676 fail only WCAG AAA, Berlin tournament with a dark gray background fails both WCAG AA and AAA. Qwerty284651 (talk) 00:40, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
Now I see... thanks. Our tennis guidelines tell us to only use 696969, so those articles are out of our own mandatory compliance and should never have been created that way. Changing those is mandatory. When originally tested it passed WCAG AA so all was and actually still is good. My recollection is that we had a lot of pushback from editors making the grey darker but that they came around. I also recall that there was some complaints about making it darker still to 595959 and that it is not mandatory to do so. Wikipedia's own rules state that we should satisfy AA or Double-A. It is optional, as in "may" satisfy the more stringent AAA or Triple-A. So that would require input from other editors to up the darkness again to something that is not required. But all our articles must follow the performance timelines to the letter. If it isn't 696969 then it must be changed. I happen to like 696969 better than 595959 because we want to make sure we can discern it easily from black. But I'm not entrenched in it if all others want to change. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:02, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
The problem is almost of all the BLP's main pages and career statistics which have the performance timelines use 767676, instead of 696969. The difference in contrast is slight between 4.54 → 5.48. Both satisfy AA, yet if the guidelines explicitly require the #696969 standard, then I propose 2 solutions here: 1. either lower the guidelines' standards, make them more lenient by keeping the current 767676 to save us some trouble or 2. bring the font darkness up to standard across all insufficient articles. OR 3. Make the background a smidge darker, so it's within AA standards and italicize the text, thereby further emphasizing the player's and tournaments' absence while still maintaining some semblance of visually appealing contrast and accessibility. Qwerty284651 (talk) 04:29, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
Remember... thousands of articles were created before we made the standards. No one has gone around and fixed them as it was low priority and a lot of work compared to other things we have to do. Mostly we fixed the biggest players at the time. I have no idea how Swiatek's was made substandard. Look at the original table maker and let them know the issue. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:59, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
Others just copy edited from previous performance timelines, I am sure as it is, unfortunately, common practice. Honestly the difference between 767676 and 696969 is so slight that even I who edited many of the BLP's perf. timelines overlooked this issue. Qwerty284651 (talk) 06:07, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
Like I said, it wasn't a huge issue. To be fully AAA compliant it would actually have to be 585858. Per contrast color chart 595959 just misses out as "sort of." I did find the big discussion that changed it from our original cccccc to 696969. I personally think we should stick with that but at least 767676 is wiki compliant. I guess we fix em as we find em? Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:19, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
Or use AWB if one was technically skilled enough. Qwerty284651 (talk) 06:27, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
I know of that discussion. It's what inspired me to start this discussion. Shame Somnifuguist retired. He/she was well AWB adept. Qwerty284651 (talk) 06:32, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
True. What's good about that consensus is that we don't have to have another one to go ahead and make changes to articles to comply with it. If we see one (especially if it doesn't comply with AA), we can simply change it to the correct color. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:00, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
A couple of them were pretty atrocious, frankly speaking, Exhibit A and B, before they got fixed. Qwerty284651 (talk) 13:49, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Useless, original research chart on many tennis articles. Why?Edit

I was going over Iga Swiatek's career statistics article and realized we have two charts that are trivial data that mislead readers, and is likely original research. It's one thing to have charts that show wins of players who were ranked in the top 10 at the time of their meeting... that's fine and relevant. But a chart that shows wins over a No. 1 or No. 2 player when they were ranked far below that at the time? That is really trivial and useless info for our readers. It shows things like a win over No. 2 Vera Zvonareva, who at the time of their match was ranked 96th. No one cares about that data. We want to know who Swiatek beat in the top 10 not a player she beat who was last in the top 10 in 2012! I think these charts have no real value except to add trivial data to our tennis articles. I started this conversation on Swiatek's talk page but soon realized these charts are like weeds. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:46, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

I guess it is likely evoluted from H2H records. Due to, as previous entry pointed out, common practice, these charts/tables spread out across almost entire career statistics articles. Even we opted to remove these charts/tables, I strongly suspect there would be loads of IP users reverting it. So I would rather just leave as it is. Unnamelessness (talk) 03:11, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
@Unnamelessness:, if edit wars occur because of this, we can always request page protection. Qwerty284651 (talk) 00:00, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
I am not a big fan of PP, and I am afraid that might sacrifice the maintance frenquency of these statistic articles, as the vast are updated by these WP:GOODFAITH IP users once there is an event complete. Unnamelessness (talk) 01:24, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
On the one hand, you are right. On the other, in worst-case scenario PP does chase away the ill-natured kind. Qwerty284651 (talk) 01:31, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
I don't mind some head to heads, though usually that is against a rival or an actual No. 1 player. But continually adding players to a chart that ten years ago they were No. 7 and are now No. 127, seems really trivial and original research. Maybe it's just me but this seems the type of thing that if Wikipedia as a whole looked at it (instead of just tennis editors) it would be deleted in a shot. Every time say Swiatek beats a player, we have to look up if that player was ever in her life ranked in the top 20. If so, we have to add her to the chart, goto the WTA site, and search for their head to head record and add that too. It just seems like data-mining just for the sake of data. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:11, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
Agree. Just remove. The last thing we should do is having content out of fear op IP edit-warring. Editors have to respect content guidelines, no the other way around.Tvx1 07:08, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
Keep for now. See WTA Official guide. Qwerty284651 (talk) 23:56, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
See what? It has 23 pages of tables but I see nothing resembling what this discussion is about. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:42, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
Also, to add these types of charts are prevalent on pretty much every singles tennis player's career stat page. The chart in question is about players whom Iga's beaten whose career highest ranking was ##. As for Top 10 wins there's a separate chart for that... Qwerty284651 (talk) 00:48, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
Yeah but capitalizing "Women's Singles" and using light grey color for "DNQ" or "A" was more than prevalent... every article had them. But we changed. These seemed like very strange mostly useless charts to me.... adding them just because we can. While I would vote for their removal, I'm not going to remove them without consensus. So if this fizzles out (as most tennis conversations actually do), then it fizzles out and I go on to work on other tennis items. Maybe this is no big deal, and I know tennis editors love to add all kinds of whimsical charts and graphs, but I thought I'd bring it up here to test the waters. Cheers. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:58, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
Support, this chart in particular should indicate XY player, in our case, Swiatek beat the player in their current ranking not their career highest one. And wasn't it already discussed at length with Dicklyon about Women's Singles...since it's part of a sentence it should be lowercase. Qwerty284651 (talk) 11:50, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
Yes the Women's singles was discussed... I was only pointing out that things change when consensus decides it's wrong, no matter how many articles it affects. If we don't use a criteria of their highest rank ever, then what criteria would we use to make this chart? We can't leave it arbitrary or editors would add whatever players they feel like. Do you simply remove that charts as trivial? Do we make charts of headtoheads only of players that were top 10 when they played each other? I'm open to compromise suggestions to make our articles better and informative. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:56, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
I don't understand why all of you made this as a big problem. On 90% of tennis related pages there is this kind of table. If it will be problem with only Iga or a couple of players I will understand it. You can remove it on some pages, but still it will stay on many others. In the same time if player is current or formal top 10 player, it stands out. Do you know how much works is needed to check player position in that moment, type of tournaments etc. People will be confused and there will be so much mistakes in these tables. Also, this is not something done few days ago, it is there so long (for some even more than a few years). For me, it is really ridiculous to change it, because you will create even bigger chaos. Plus, you don't rescect all effort some editors put in this. There is so many other things that these pages needs in order to be fixed and consistent. I'm currently working on some pages for older players like Nadia Petrova, Roberta Vinci etc. It disguisted me how messy these pages are in both formating and essential way. By the way, I don't see you guys making any effort in making these pages better but just wanted to make some changes. Respect editors at least more. So many pages needs to be updated! Wake up! Cheers! JamesAndersoon (talk) 12:58, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
Plus, this kind of table exist so long and nobody makes a problem with that. Otherwise, there would be objections. Think about that. JamesAndersoon (talk) 12:59, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
There are a lot of items on player articles that are wrong that no one has taken the time to fix. I'm certainly guilty of that too. And you're right, many of our older articles are woefully out of date. They should be a higher priority than these trivial charts. Even the really old players. The top players from the 20s-80s should have similar articles to Iga Swiatek, Ashleigh Barty, and Serena Williams... but they don't. I just happened to notice the odd chart on Iga's article and thought how weird it was. I thought why should editors be wasting their time on these charts when it could be better used to doing what you are doing... helping our older articles. It's probably just human nature. There are zillions of folks who want to edit Swiatek's articles right now and one or two that want to edit Louise Brough, Margaret Osborne duPont, Helen Jacobs, or Hana Mandlikova. I'm sure there has been a big drop off on people wanting to edit Raducanu and Osaka in the past year. Right now I would say these top 20 charts give us trivial data at great cost of time. We should certainly not be adding any more to future articles while we decide if there are major tweaks we could do to make them more palatable or simply remove them as we get around to it. Do you really think that it's vital information to show Carlos Alcaraz' head to head against 385th ranked Lucas Pouille, who was way up there at 103 rank when they played their only match? Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:56, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
Right now Carlos Alcaraz article and Iga Swiatek article also have a legitimate chart that shows wins against players who were, at the time the match was played, ranked in the top 10. That's cool. Both those players also have the trivial "Record against top 10 players" chart that shows head to head of players who were ever in their lives ranked in the top 10. Swiatek also has an even more trivial limited chart of head to heads against players that were ever ranked in the top 11-20. What might be better and more informative would be to eliminate those two trivial charts. On the good chart with the top 10 wins, add an extra column with their head to head record. You might even include a head to head record list of top 10 players (at the time she played them) that she has lost to if the head to head is not included in her win list. To me that is more helpful to our readers... players she beat in the top 10 and players she lost to in the top 10... and not that she beat 196th ranked Mihaela Buzărnescu (123 rank at the time) in the Billie Jean King Cup in 2022 and has a 1–0 record against her, just because Buzărnescu was ranked No. 20 a year before Swiatek even turned professional. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:00, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

New commentsEdit

The more I think about this, the more I feel these charts should only include actual ranking of the player Iga, and every other BLP this type of chart is included in, has beaten and leave it at that. If this means mass-cleanup, then some be it. I am in for the ride. Qwerty284651 (talk) 08:40, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Merging of navboxesEdit

I propose the following the 3 navboxes:

WTA 1000 tournaments

be merged into one. Any ideas for the new central navbox's design? Qwerty284651 (talk) 18:08, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

But any player starting in 2021 only needs one small navbox. Most players would need only one or two. By combining them, almost all players would get information they don't need. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:19, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
This is moreso for the WTA 1000 singles and WTA 1000 doubles pages than for BLP's, and for the eponymous category. Qwerty284651 (talk) 18:33, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
You are correct as I checked. Every link is to a tournament or category therein. Many of those events need all three navboxes, so perhaps it would be better to merge them. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:24, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
Any ideas on what the merged navbox should look like? Qwerty284651 (talk) 19:52, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

ProposalsEdit

Proposal 1: Sub-template
Proposal 2: Sub-section

Unnamelessness (talk) 03:05, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I was thinking something along the lines of:
Proposals 3 and 4
OR
On a side note, {{ATP Masters Series}} and {{ATP World Tour Masters 1000 tournaments}}, the ATP equivalents of the WTA navboxes, had 6 different series aka category renamings from 1990 onwards and yet they're all put into 1 category/group. Unnamelessness, while I appreciate your input, I feel as though the navs should be more compressed, at least have the years in 1 group instead of in separate ones. Let's keep it short and simple. Qwerty284651 (talk) 02:00, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
I don't really like proposal 4, but proposal 3 looks pretty good. It should probably have a more encompassing title though, like proposal 2 (WTA 1000 / Premier / Tier I tournaments). Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:05, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
How about these options?
Proposals v. 3.1 & 3.2

Proposal v. 3.1

Proposal v. 3.2

Looking any better? Qwerty284651 (talk) 15:17, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
Depending on a person's screen size (and how much it squishes info) it may make no real difference. I personally like 3.2 better. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:22, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
I truncated the years. It should look better now. I would keep the years since they've always be prevalent in navs. Qwerty284651 (talk) 21:32, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
Moreover, what do we do with the 2 men's ATP Masters navs?
See their transclusions here:
ATP Nav. 1 transclusions ATP Nav. 2 transclusions
Do we merge them 2 into 1 as well or leave them as is? Qwerty284651 (talk) 15:45, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
I'd merge them and use the exact same format and wording. I'd title it ATP Masters tournaments. I guess I would use an "other" header and put in both record and statistics and predecessor. I'd dump the years since this is for navigation and we don't need the detail of when they formed. In fact, why do we include that info in the other chart? Doha and Dubai are getting unwieldy with all those dates after the name. The articles themselves will tell you when the events take place. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:35, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
Regarding Doha and Dubai, it's common practice to include years when a certain event took place. The years are like a must-have, consider it sort of like essential to these kinds of navboxes. I can modify them a bit if needed be, for e.g., use abbreviations 1990 → 90, 1997 → 97, etc. Every tournament navboxes uses years. Case in point, {{WTA German Open tournaments}} Qwerty284651 (talk) 21:26, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
Why is it must have? Think 15 years from now how long the date list will become. I do not see them as must have at all and I think they should all be removed. They are not needed in the least. In fact, why city names instead of tournament names? That could also confuse readers when they expect Italian Open and get Rome; when the expect Canadian Open and get Montréal/Toronto. Rome is not a tournament. Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:01, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
Say we remove the years when individual tournament took place, claiming the info's in the tournament's article. Fine, so be it. But I would still keep the events' cities instead of having Masters and Open be written after every tournament's name. And why Rome? The tournament takes place in Rome. Mayhaps Rome Masters, but not Italian Open. This has been done for a long time listing the tournaments in navboxes by cities, rather than by their actual names. It's common practice to do it thusly. Qwerty284651 (talk) 02:28, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
ATP Masters 1000 tournaments
I can rename the "ATP Masters Series" to "ATP Masters tournaments", "ATP Masters 1000 tournaments" or "ATP Masters 1000" and tag the other one for deletion. Qwerty284651 (talk) 22:37, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

New commentsEdit

Long ago, our performance timelines had cities instead of tournaments, but that was changed by consensus as not accurate. Now our timelines must use the tournament name. Cities are not tournaments and I don't see why the tournament name is not used. It takes up less room than the date row. Common practice for years has been to use multiple navboxes yet here we are merging and tweaking... now would be the time to make them the best they can be. Fyunck(click) (talk) 03:10, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

I can live with all kinds of mergings, it just seems a shame to not correct things to the actual tournament names. The title of the nav bar is tournaments, not cities, so readers would expect the tournament names. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:11, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

The wta navbar has 21 tournaments, half of which are defunct. Would you keep the tournament name for the defunct as well or use the city names only. Many tournaments went through name changes over the years, because of sponsorship reasons and otherwise. If we do come to an agreement to use tournament names, which admittedly is a better solution, we would have to choose the right, the "universal", for lack of a better term, name for each event.
For example, Boca Raton was Ameritech Cup, a one-off Tier I event in 1990, Berlin aka German Open, Tokyo which ran for 16 years was Toray Pan Pacific Open, which is a long name to include in the navbox (best would be to omit the sponsor name), etc.
If I perused the navbox for the first time and saw Ameritech Cup and saw Boca Raton on another chart I wouldn't know that was the same tournament. Clicking on the city name's link takes you to the tournament's main page, but not year. Therefore, the years should stay to indicate when XY event took place. There's no way of knowing when such event was a Tier I/Premier/1000 event if it's not mentioned in the article itself, which isn't on every article. Qwerty284651 (talk) 14:49, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

There should ne no reason we can't fix it all now and make the following:

I would be okay with this version if it wasn't for the "Masters" and "Open" added at the end of each name. That's the only thing that bothers me. Qwerty284651 (talk) 02:31, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
@Fyunck(click):, I withdraw my previous statement and agree with your ATP navbox proposal. If nobody objects with this, we should be good with implementing this "final" version. Qwerty284651 (talk) 04:21, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Okay. I've given a lot of thought over the past 10 days and decided to meet you half away. At the end of the day, it's what's the most suitable for the readers that's important and so I decided to put your @Fyunck(click): proposal into consideration and suggest this as the potential middle-ground solution for the wta navboxes:

Tell me what you think of it. Qwerty284651 (talk) 04:16, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm fine with it except two kinda perplexing things. Now would I use WTA Qatar Open?... no since this is already a WTA chart I would just use Qatar Open, but I won't argue it if that's what you like better. I would also use Dubai Open since that is also a common name (that is shorter) for the event. But again, that's personal preference so I won't argue the point. But Indian Wells Masters is wrong for the gals. They do not have a Masters event... it is called Indian Wells Open for women. Same with Cincinnati. And why only Wuhan instead of the correct Wuhan Open? Why would it be the only event left as a city only? Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:34, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
I would keep "Masters" for both IW and Cincy, since that's the official name of the tournaments. Or we can use their sponsor name equivalents: BNP Paribas Open and Western and Southern Open. Fixed Qatar, Dubai and Wuhan. Qwerty284651 (talk) 14:39, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
I'm not sure where you got that "masters" was part of the official name. Cincinnati as at [8] and Indian Wells is at [9]. Everything we have at Wikipedia for the women says Indian Wells Open and Cincinnati Open. The majority of sources also use the term. This chart would be an anomaly for us. We use the term Masters at our Wikipedia page because we had to put it at something. They could just as easily be moved to Indian Wells Open and Cincinnati Open (actually probably should be as I think about it). The official website says it was known as the Cincinnati Open since 1899. The ATP and WTA of course call them by their sponsored names, as they should lest their money dry up. But that name changes with the sponsors. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:19, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
I was on the assumption that the tournament's wikipedia article names were the official names. I guess I was wrong. If the official websites cite them as open, then we should stick with the "Open" to avoid any confusion. Replaced "Masters" with "Open" for both tournaments. Now all active wta 1000 tournaments are listed as "Open's" in the navbox. Qwerty284651 (talk) 19:23, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
Then I'm fine with your chart. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:51, 21 November 2022 (UTC)