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WikiProject Catholicism / Cath. canon law (Rated Project-class)
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At it againEdit

See [1] Horse Eye's Back has posted a list questioning the reliability of what appear to be some often used sources -without advising a group most likely to possibly use them. Some may be reliable, some may not be. Different people will have different opinions, which is why I bring this here. I don't use Catholic Online, but I like New Advent for its access to CE and Ante-Nicene fathers etc. He, of course, does not consider CE reliable. A bit outdated in some respects, but not too bad on a good deal of standard stuff. This comes after a campaign of WP:DRIVEBY cn tags for both articles bearing a CE template indicating where the info came from, as well as, things that clearly fall under WP:SKYBLUE. This was followed by a continuing spate of notability tags (see above). As a wise woman once said, "AGF is not a suicide pact." Manannan67 (talk) 08:14, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

@Manannan67: the NewAdvent and C-H portions are goofy (considering we have the WikiSource citation for CE pretty well established and use similar means of data collection as C-H). If you think good faith isn't present, though, you should take this up with HEB directly or one of the admin noticeboards. As best I can tell, HEB is trying to make sure material is reliably sourced but at the expense of ignoring those with subject-matter expertise—both are something a simple talk page message or response response on the linked notice board could potentially resolve. ~ Pbritti (talk) 13:44, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
@Pbritti: CE WikiSource is drawn from New Advent. Although I use both, I prefer New Advent because it includes links to related topics and includes the contributors sources, which wikisource sometimes does and sometimes doesn't. As for CH: that has been discussed ad nauseum. What I can make out is that it is OK as a source on historical bishops or the general hierarchy of the Catholic Church but not for BLPs. Manannan67 (talk) 20:42, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
@Manannan67:Out of curiosity, where are you pulling that consensus RE C-H being not okay for BLP but okay for historical persons? That kind of dichotomy of standards seems not very Wikipedia. Maximilian775 (talk) 06:46, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
I do take subject-matter expertise into consideration, unless I am mistaken none of the sources I took to RSN are published by subject-matter experts (please interpret that as an open invitation to let me know if I am mistaken). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:52, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
That's blatant wp:canvassing, you can only notify wikiprojects of an ongoing discussion with a neutral summary... Blackening my name behind my back is not the way to do it. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:25, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
Behind your Back?!?! This is not "canvassing". See WP:APPNOTE: "The talk page or noticeboard of one or more WikiProjects or other Wikipedia collaborations which may have interest in the topic under discussion." You should have done it yourself. The fact that you chose not to bring it here at all says a lot. Manannan67 (talk) 20:17, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
"Notifications must be polite, neutrally worded with a neutral title, clear in presentation, and brief—the user can always find out more by clicking on the link to the discussion." Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:20, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
Also just FYI "A bit outdated in some respects, but not too bad on a good deal of standard stuff." is also my opinion of the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia. My issue with its use is generally one of due weight (it is an archaic source after all), not reliability. Also to quote a famous dog who's leg do I have hump do be called they here? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:24, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
It appears that CE is generally used as a framework upon which editors add more recent scholarship. As to whether or not they actually get around to it, is another matter, and depends, I suppose, on how obscure the subject matter is. Most of the CE contributors were well-respected in their particular fields, and often provide details that is either unavailable elsewhere or that later writers don't. I don't see what the problem is. Manannan67 (talk) 20:51, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
Nobody is challenging CE. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:00, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

  You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Criticism of the Catholic Church § Ordination of women to the priesthood. Elizium23 (talk) 16:33, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Review my BLPEdit

Hi everyone, I wrote my first BLP (first article entirely, in fact), today — it's a local auxiliary bishop.

If you have a minute, could you take a look? I'm concerned in particular about using as a source.

Draft:Joseph Dabrowski Ethamn (talk) 07:04, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia! I made a few edits on the article and then moved it to the mainspace -- good job!
Just a few things -- there's a general format to episcopal biographies for the sake of consistency, especially BLP ones -- Robert J. Brennan and Nicholas Anthony DiMarzio follow it well.
As regarding catholic-hierarchy, as far as I know, it is not WP:RS, sadly. I found another reliable source stating the primary consecrator, though.

Also, when you hyperlink the diocese which a bishop is affiliated with, link to the page for the Catholic diocese rather than the secular city; IE "Diocese of London, Ontario" rather than "Diocese of London, Ontario Thanks for your contribution!

Maximilian775 (talk) 07:36, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Infobox flagsEdit

A search failed me. Can anyone remember a prior discussion we had about allowing flag icons in diocesan infoboxes? Per MOS:INFOBOXFLAG I was able to justify this as dioceses are "human geography" and "administrative divisions" but I'm not sure we had a solid consensus or a widespread discussion on it. It may have been restricted to a couple article talk pages. Elizium23 (talk) 17:22, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Huh. I recall being told something to the end that diocesan articles were not to have flags about a year ago but I haven't a clue of where to find that interaction or the consensus it cited. I lean towards excluding them as nations generally hold little actual authority over ecclesiastical jurisdictions, but MOS:INFOBOXFLAG does seem to say diocesan articles can have flags. I'll avoid removing them going forward. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:31, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Requested move - Catholic laymanEdit

An editor has requested for Peter Forster (bishop) to be moved to another page. Since you had some involvement with Peter Forster (bishop), you might want to participate in the move discussion (if you have not already done so). Elizium23 (talk) 09:26, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Requested move - all diocesan sexual-abuse-related articlesEdit

An editor has requested for Sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic archdiocese of Chicago to be moved to another page. Since you had some involvement with Sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic archdiocese of Chicago, you might want to participate in the move discussion (if you have not already done so). Elizium23 (talk) 11:03, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

  You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Solemn Mass § Specific term of art. Elizium23 (talk) 22:39, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Bishop infoboxesEdit

Shall we stick with using "diocese = xxx" for infoboxes of bishop biographies, or should we move that data point to "see = xxx" instead? @Rogermx disagrees with my stance. Elizium23 (talk) 18:37, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

I would say that it is up to the editor to decide whether to use "see" or "diocese" unless somebody can PROVE to me that one is right and the other is wrong. Rogermx (talk) 03:43, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
Preference is "see" as it covers all manner of ecclesial jurisdictions, ranging from episcopal abbeys to vicariates to ordinariates to archeparchies. ~ Pbritti (talk) 04:17, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
Has anyone drafted guidance on how best to use {{Infobox Christian leader}} parameters to accommodate Catholic leaders? Something like that would be helpful in achieving some consistency across Catholic leaders? — Archer1234 (talk) 05:03, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
@Pbritti I haven't heard that reasoning before, and it doesn't make sense. Dioceses are dioceses and they're unlikely to change. Why use a more general parameter when there is one that is custom-made for dioceses? Do you have documentation of the discussion which led to that consensus? Elizium23 (talk) 05:10, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
@Elizium23: Unless you can offer documentation of a prior discussion, this discussion will be the consensus. If you have said documentation, why even ask the question in the first place, much less without linking it here? ~ Pbritti (talk) 06:22, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

I just finished the article on Eastern Catholic liturgy. Sorry that it took much longer than I had hoped, but I wanted to balance it being a survey article with the need for a comprehensive article covering Eastern Catholic liturgies as a unified topic. Modifications are welcome. On a related note, is there a way we could incorporate this overarching article into Template:Particular churches sui iuris? ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:21, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Frank Bayard, Grand Master of the Teutonic OrderEdit

Recently an editor redirected Frank Bayard, the current Grand Master of the Teutonic Order. Is the position of Grand Master of the order not notable enough itself to justify an article for Bayard? Thriley (talk) 04:16, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

It doesn't seem that any of his predecessors rose to that level. This order is obscure in the United States and perhaps other English-speaking nations. Are there non-English sources with WP:SIGCOV that would grant notability to Bayard or other grand masters? Elizium23 (talk) 06:59, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
I think that he passes WP:NBASIC as the subject of significant coverage by multiple, independent RS. Per WP:ATD-R, the bold re-blar was not appropriate, and I've restored the article. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 08:12, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Jesuit J. Harding Fisher draft helpEdit

Hello, I started a draft for J. Harding Fisher, an American Jesuit. Can anyone assist with sourcing? Thriley (talk) 05:59, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

I'll look when I have the chance, but I also can't see how this would pass notability and don't want you to waste your time... Maximilian775

Ethnic cardinals?Edit

  • Category:Lists of cardinals by country contains 7 articles, and could be expanded by leaps and bounds with the appointments coming through during this pontificate. However, I'm curious. Are these articles intended to be categorized by ethnicity? Or is it by nationality, citizenship, or location of reign/residence? They appear to focus on ethnicity. If this is the case, we should make the scope explicit, and we should also rename the category to Category:Lists of cardinals by ethnicity to be up-front and accurate about this chosen scope. (Be careful how you answer, and consider that Jorge Mario Bergoglio would be an Italian cardinal.)

Elizium23 (talk) 11:50, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

I wonder if "by country" is too specific in many cases (yielding a category of a handful or less). I suspect by ethnicity would be a challenge. How far back, what %, etc. Plus there is Category:Cardinals_by_nationality Dcheney (talk) 12:38, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Monastic communities without a mention of church affiliationEdit

I ran across these examples this week and noticed that neither article mentions the Catholic Church or any other church affiliation! Now, ecumenical and Reformed monasteries are not unheard of, so I'm hesitant to claim them all in the name of Rome just yet. I'm also not sure how many articles are affected - is this the tip of the iceberg, or a few isolated cases? Elizium23 (talk) 04:56, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

@Manannan67 you've contributed to related articles, any ideas? Elizium23 (talk) 05:00, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
I think it's either just an oversight or assumed to be implied. (Glenstal is part of the Congregation of the Annunciation which is a member of the Benedictine Confederation based at Sant'Anselmo all'Aventino in Rome. Founded out of Maredsous Abbey, also part of Annunciation, which itself was founded after WWI when it was felt better to separate the Belgian fr the German Benedictines.) A short phrase in the lede would fix it. I haven't noticed any others. If there are, I suspect it's presumed to be inferred fr other info such as its founding, etc. I think Catholic is sort of a default, because if it was Anglican or Lutheran that distinction I would expect to see in the lede....(RE Glenstal: I see that three of the nine citations are to "Catholic Ireland" so that should provide a hint.) Manannan67 (talk) 05:31, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Benedict XVI reportedly seriously illEdit

The former pope's health has taken a sharp turn according to the Holy See. I would note that in the event of his passing, there is certain to be a nomination at In the News. Standards for articles being linked on the main page tend to be quite high, with a particular emphasis on referencing. -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:27, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

I am hoping some of those involved here will chime in the discussion so that we can ditch this extra article that serves no real unique purpose. ~ Pbritti (talk) 21:00, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Carlo d'Ippolito di Sant'Ippolito, grand commander of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta from 2011 to 2014, has died. Any help with the article would be appreciated. Thriley (talk) 02:00, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Death and Funeral of Pope Benedict XVIEdit

An editor has started Draft:Death and Funeral of Pope Benedict XVI (actually it was originally in the mainspace, but I draftified it). I imagine there might also be others working on a similar article. Perhaps some of the members of this WikiProject could help out with this draft and maybe even figure out how many competing drafts there are out this about this topic. If there are more than one, then perhaps the best of the bunch should be kept and the others merged into it to avoid duplicate articles suddenly appearing. -- Marchjuly (talk) 10:49, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

After looking, there frankly doesn't appear to be any other draft relating to this article. The fact that when I first created this article, I created a bunch of redirects (patrally stemming from this old archive I found a few days ago), plus featured it at the top of the section relating to his death may have to do with that. With that, I would like to ask for help from WP Catholicism for aid in bettering the draft. Knightoftheswords281 (talk) 11:00, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
@Knightoftheswords281: I have improved the article. What do you think should be done next? Veverve (talk) 18:38, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
Thanks! I think we should just continue to edit the article as further updates pour in for now. Knightoftheswords281 (talk) 18:46, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

His ExcellencyEdit

Hi editors, I am curious about the honorific styles such as "His Excellency" (and equivalents: "His Eminence, His Holiness".) I was under the impression that these are spoken styles only. I was given this impression by the classifications in the ubiquitous {{Infobox bishopstyles}}. Is this correct? It seems that our article Excellency says it is also a written style. Does this apply to the ecclesiastical usage as well? Does anyone have definitive sources which explain this? Elizium23 (talk) 00:46, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

See Noonan, The Church Visible. There's a chapter specifically on forms of address. "Your Excellency" can be used in a letter and "His Excellency" for place cards and invitations. Gimmetrow 01:04, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
@Gimmetrow:, no, they are not solely spoken styles. The salutation in written correspondence uses same form ("Your Eminence," etc.). However, ecclesial forms of address vary from country to country, even in the English-speaking world. The forms of ecclesial address used in England, Canada, and Australia for bishops and archbishops differ from those used in the United States. Also, the forms used in a third party reference ("His Excellency" for a bishop or archbishop in the United States) differ from the form used in the address on an envelope ("Most Reverend" for a bishop or archbishop in the United States). Norm1979 (talk) 00:49, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
Yes, that's what I said. (I'm also aware of the differences between US and UK customs, though Elizium didn't ask about that.) Gimmetrow 03:25, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Talk:Divine Worship: The Missal#RFC has an RFC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Elizium23 (talk) 09:28, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

  You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Transubstantiation § Relation to Eucharistic Miracles. Sundayclose (talk) 23:11, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Bishop appointments and WP:CRYSTALEdit

Hi there, I believe this RFC on Infobox officeholder is quite applicable to the practice I've been advocating: wait until a bishop is installed before placing his name in the infobox. Hopefully, applicable to other fields such as "diocese" and succession boxes and categories. Elizium23 (talk) 04:49, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Gaudi at GAREdit

Antoni Gaudí has been nominated for a community good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 18:12, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

I created an article for a shrine local to me. I'm not Catholic, and know very little about religion in general. I'd appreciate it if someone form here could have a look at it. –DMartin 07:17, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

@Dmartin969: Excellent start! I have made some very trivial alterations. I may also perform a more substantial expansion next week, but will ping you on your talk page before doing so. If you ever have questions regarding editing a Catholic topic, here and the WP Christianity noticeboard have a ton of very active watchers eager to provide any insight you may desire. ~ Pbritti (talk) 07:53, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Historical List of the Catholic bishops of Canada / other Anglosphere countriesEdit

In looking at the Historical list of the Catholic bishops of the United States, I realized that such a resource, as far as I know, does not exist for other countries in English-speaking "mission territory" with a clearly-defined beginning such as Canada or Australia or New Zealand.

Does anyone know whether those episcopal conferences have a printed equivalent of Ordinations of U.S. Catholic Bishops, 1790–1989 which forms the basis of the American list? I'd use Catholic-Hierarchy but based on prior use of the site, I would have to independently verify each entry, which seems like... a lot

Maximilian775 (talk) 04:52, 16 January 2023 (UTC)