Talk:R. A. Hardie

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:R. A. Hardie/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Reidgreg (talk · contribs) 17:14, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Review forthcoming. I made some minor copy edit to the article; feel free to revert anything you disagree with and we can discuss it as part of the review. This will be my first GA review, and I will request it to be checked. – Reidgreg (talk) 17:14, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Criterion

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   Would appreciate a little prosework done

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

   Two unreliable sources good

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   No caption for image, but perhaps not needed. Caption requirement waved for infobox image of subject with no further details.

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   With the other sources, there's only one unsourced statement. This should pass with a little additional work. Pass

Review comments

Prose

The article is generally well-written but there are a few small areas where I feel that the prose could be smoothed, tightened or clarified. (There are a couple additional prose issues I might raise after referencing is sorted, and some optional FA-level prose advice further down.)

• In a historical context, how should the article refer to Korea? North Korea didn't exist until sometime after Hardie retired. Could say "what is now North Korea" in the lead and perhaps simply "Korea" elsewhere, or "northern Korea" where specificity is needed? Please check all instances.
  • Done. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 19:52, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• When Gale resigned his supporters from the University College's YMCA (UC–YMCA) in order join the American Presbyterian Mission Can we rephrase "resigned his supporters", which seems a little awkward and possibly confusing? Perhaps "ended his support" or "discontinued his patronage"?
  • Done. Went with "When Gale end his association with his supporters from the University College's YMCA (UC–YMCA)". --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 19:52, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• Hardie was first tasked with establishing a medical practicing in Songdo Is it perhaps a little archaic to use "practicing" instead of "practice" here? The article earlier uses "practice" for his medical premises.
  • Changed "practicing" to "practice". --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 19:52, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• In Wŏnsan, Hardie began to emulate Fenwick's survival techniques by supplementing his living with farming, "feeding cattle and growing fruit". How about changing "survival techniques" (which was taken from the source) to "self-sufficiency"? If I'm understanding it correctly, I think that's a little clearer.
  • changed to "methods of self-sufficiency". --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 19:52, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• Robert and youngest daughter Margaret Joy both died in their youth. They died at about 11 and 6 years of age, so would it be better to say "in their childhoods"?
  • Went with "died at eleven and six years old, respectively". --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 19:52, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

Referencing & verifiability

Thanks for naming the references and using page numbers, this made it a lot easier for me!

• "Kim 2012"
  • WP:SCHOLARSHIP recommends caution with use of dissertations. It's used chiefly to cite non-controversial statements about the subject's immediate family, so I don't see any problem with it.
    • That was my thinking as well. The dissertation has the most biographical family history information but I have avoided using it for any thing possibly controversial. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 20:14, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Would it be possible to link the target of the download link (i.e., this)?
    • Done. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 20:14, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
  • It took me a while to realize that the first citation in the lead was to support the subject's Korean name. Would it be better to move that citation up to the parentheses?
    • Done. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 20:14, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• "Jang 2016"
  • confessing his low spirits and "the failure of his mission in [the Kangwon Province]." The way this is phrased makes the quotation look like the words of the subject's confession, while it actually seems to be a quote from the author Jang, page 78, end of the third paragraph. I feel that this should either be paraphrased (preferable) or have inline attribution to Jang.
    • Paraphrased to "confessing his low spirits and disappointment with his efforts to proselytise [the Kangwon Province]". --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 20:14, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
      • I removed the square brackets; they aren't needed as it's no longer presented as a quotation. – Reidgreg (talk) 16:48, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
• "Kang 2006"
  • Google books isn't showing page 157 to me, so will AGF.
• "Yang 2014"
  • AGF
• "Yoo 1996"
  • Another doctoral thesis; this one takes a thorough look at the subject's work and looks reliable to me.
  • He attended a school in Seneca, near Toronto, earning a teacher's certificate in 1884, and worked as a teacher in his hometown for two years. I'm not so sure about "near" and was a little confused about what his "hometown" was (per souce, it's Seneca). Seneca Township, is (today) a historic township in Haldimand County, Ontario, about 90 km south of Toronto (110 km by major roadways). How about: "Hardie was born on June 11, 1865, in Haldimand County, Ontario, south of Toronto. Of Scottish descent, he was the first of six children born to James and Abigail Hardie. Both his parents died before he was ten years old. Hardie was then raised by his aunt and uncle, Thomas and Fannie Shaw. He attended a school in Seneca, Haldimand County, earning a teacher's certificate in 1884, and worked as a teacher in Seneca for two years."
    • Done. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 20:37, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
  • to serve as an independent and nondenominational medical missionary. I didn't see "nondenominational" until I went back to page 268.
    • Done. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 20:37, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
  • In 1905, Hardie started a mobile theological school named Sinhakdang (Hall of Theology). The school initially had no defined physical location as he travelled between Inchŏn, Kongju, Pyongyang, and Seoul to teach several months-long sessions. This is taken from the block quote, so it's pages 291–292.
    • Done. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 20:37, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• "Ion 1990"
  • As a medical student, Hardie studied with Oliver R. Avison I thought this meant that they were classmates, but the source says Hardie was Avison's medical student. So maybe change: with → under, or similar.
    • Done. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 20:49, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
  • The Toronto University Medical Student's YMCA (MS–YMCA) had funded his endeavour for the next eight years. Ion says only that they agreed to fund him for eight years, so I think this needs an additional citation, perhaps Yoo pages 278, 497.
    • Done. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 20:49, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• "Jost 2018"
  • Does not appear to be a reliable source (essentially a blog or homepage). It provides some information on historical documentation (which could be reliable if it were vetted), but as I'm looking at the rules I think this should be moved out of the references and into a Further Reading or External links section.
  • You'll need another source for: He was also influenced by the writings in the university papers about the work of James Scarth Gale, another evangelist in Korea. Yoo pages 267–268 notes that Gale was sent to Korea by another UofT YMCA in 1888, and that "The enthusiasm of the medical students for sending 'their' representative missionary to Korea mirrored those shown by UT-YMCA members when they sent Gale". Kim 2012 page 34 notes "Young-Sik Yoo (now, a professor at the University of Toronto) emphasized Hardie's appointment was done by Gale's request to the MS-YMCA." There's certainly a connection there, and Gale preceded Hardie and laid the groundwork for Hardie, but not really enough to support the statement from Jost. MacDonald 2000 page 17 notes "[Gale's] writings and translations were invaluable to mission colleagues and the drama and heroic characters in Gale's stories were often used to recruit new missionaries." (though not a reliable source, one might try to get the source MacDonald used.)
• MacDonald 2000
  • A Master's thesis, which WP:SCHOLARSHIP says should be considered unreliable unless "shown to have had significant scholarly influence". A more-reliable source is also cited for the same statement, so the article content is fine. However, I feel that this should be removed from the sources and moved down to a Further reading or External links section.
    • Done. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 20:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• Washington 1934
  • AGF, some Google hits seem to verify the quotation.

Media

• For the infobox image, do you have any details that could be added in a caption such as the year, location, or photographer? The GA criteria say that images must have a caption, but if no details are available and we can only say that it's a photo of the article's subject, then that seems redundant to restate his bare name for an infobox image caption (which would create unnecessary infobox clutter). In other words, if you have extra details, add them in a caption; otherwise, the infobox itself serves as the caption.
  • Reidgreg, the date of the photograph is not known. If I had to guess, it is from late in his career but before his return to North America. Would you like me to add "R.A. Hardie, date unknown"? --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 20:23, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
    • No, I think it's fine as-is. – Reidgreg (talk) 16:48, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Other areas to improve

Although not part of the GA criteria, here are some other areas you might want to improve:

• Add |alt= text for the infobox image, perhaps Outdoor photograph of man in formal suit
• Chaejungwon (Extended Relief House: Royal Hospital) There are a few places like this. I believe that the MOS rules are for generic foreign names to be in lowercase italic, but for proper foreign names to be capitalized non-italic (MOS:FOREIGNITALIC and down into MOS:BADITALICS). So I feel that the majority of these should be non-italic. However, in the case of a magazine entitled Sinak saekye (The World of Theology) the italics are warranted for the title of a major work (MOS:MAJORWORKS).
  • This variance from MOS becomes a little confusing with Hardie became the editor-in-chief of the Chosŏn Yesukyo Sŏhoe, as I inferred from the italics that Chosŏn Yesukyo Sŏhoe was a publication, not an organization.
• However, in November 1892, facing financial hardship due to his meager support from his backers in Toronto and facing competition from other missionaries in the Pusan area, Hardie decided to move his mission to Wŏnsan, where Gale and Malcolm C. Fenwick were then located. This isn't exactly confusing but is a bit long for one sentence, so probably more of an FA-level issue. How about splitting it and rephrasing: However, he faced competition from other missionaries in the Pusan area and financial hardship due to the limited support from Toronto. In November 1892, Hardie decided to move his mission to Wŏnsan, where Gale and Malcolm C. Fenwick were then located.
  • Done. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 20:49, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• Sometime after 1900, Hardie stopped practicing medicine altogether to concentrate on his missionary work. I think this works without "altogether".
  • Done. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 21:19, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
• Hardie was charged with the task of proselytizing to the people of Wŏnsan Consider linking proselytizing to Proselytism.
  • Done. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 21:19, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
• during a small Bible study among seven missionaries which included Hardie, he spoke → during a Bible study with six other missionaries, Hardie spoke
  • Done. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 21:19, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
• From 1901 to 1909, new Korean converts to the Christian faith numbered at just under 100,000. → From 1901 to 1909, there were almost 100,000 new Korean converts to the Christian faith.
  • Done. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 21:19, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
• inspiring a religious awakening that would infect the entire nation. would infect → infected. Or maybe affected would be better?
  • Done. I changed "infected" to "spread through out". --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 21:19, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
• I think the coverage is broad enough for GA, but a couple things I came across to consider towards FA:
  • I think it's interesting that Jang notes "racial superiority" to be among Hardie's public repentances. I'm certainly not an expert, but it seems progressive for the time.
  • There is mention in Yoo pp 293–294 that Hardie was also influential in introducing Western produce and agricultural practices to Korea, particularly with regard to apple orchards.
  • Possibly some more about how Gale's mission may have influenced Hardie, per above.

General discussion

This should pass GA with a little additional work. I'm tagging the review as "on hold" for now. Please feel free to discuss if you have questions or disagree with the points I've raised. – Reidgreg (talk) 13:32, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

The one holdout is that statement from Jost. I understand you may need a few days to go through the sources for something suitable to replace it with. – Reidgreg (talk) 16:48, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Great, thanks for the additional changes! Passed. – Reidgreg (talk) 13:36, 8 April 2020 (UTC)