Talk:Mont Blanc massif

Article in need of enhancement

Rather than being just a list of peaks, passes and glaciers, this page is in desperate need of being enhanced into a proper introductory article on the whole massif. I think it should serve as an introductory overview to the entire area, and include a geographic description which much better defines it, and includes brief mention of aspects like geography/geology, tourism, conservation which are currently either overlooked or lost within articles on individual mountains, or fall outside the remit of the various Wikipedia Projects which look rather narrowly at themes such as rivers, glaciers, mountains, etc.

I have already deleted a quite a few secondary sources and 'facts' from the Mont Blanc page which relate to other peaks - especially those referring to mountain accidents and achievements which clearly took place elsewhere within the massif. Any good editor should have spotted these, although the media don't help when they so loosely refer to Mont Blanc in nearly every story about any of these mountains.

I will work through the list of lower peaks in this article, a few of which should not have been included as they are well outside the MB massif. (Aiguilles Rouges for example). I have started drafting some text enhancements and other content, which I will start insert in the weeks ahead.

I am also a little uncomfortable about references to the Graian Alps which I do not see as having ever been clearly or properly defined and referenced, either within Wikipedia and elsewhere. Many sources suggest this range ends well south of the Mont Blanc massif, and I would suggest that the over-emphasis on this alpine name adds confusion, rather than aiding clarity - consider the contradictory statements currently in the first two paragraphs. I appreciate there has been a discussion on the extent of the Graian Alps elsewhere, but because so few few reliable texts on these mountains use the term (unless perhaps they've gleaned it from Wikipedia in the first place), I suggest reducing emphasis on it somewhat.

Either way, only once we have this article structured properly can attention then be paid to the Mont Blanc page itself, which is really quite poor considering its significance, and deserves to be brought up to GA or Featured article status (with everyone's help, I hope!). Parkywiki (talk) 23:48, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

This article has now been completely rewritten. Parkywiki (talk) 08:53, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Good Article nomination - your thoughts please

I have nominated this article for Good Article status, and gather this can take some months before it is picked up by a reviewer. While we're waiting, do please either make edits or leave a note here to suggest ways you think this article could be enhanced, and I will address them. Obviously, with a mountain massif on this scale, one could expand indefinitely into every peak, glacier, sport, flower or rock that occurs there. But that would not be helpful. So what would? Is anything missing, poorly represented, or confusing? My aim is that this article could, in time, be brought to Featured Article quality and that this might then cascade down into improvements to the Mont Blanc article, too. Parkywiki (talk) 02:31, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Feedback received so far:

•  Donesuggest model your article against an existing geography good article - a list can be found at WP:GA
•  Done suggest adding references to the "Ecology" section.
•  Donesuggest (if relevant) expanding information about the social and cultural / historical significance of the area in pre 19th century. Do the Romans, Suetonii, Franks etc. have a role to play? if not then ignore this!)
•  Done suggest if at all possible concatenating some of the lists and removing or rationalising some of the numbers such as heights, which make the text quite heavy to read (if possible).
•  Done Give a mention to the Neutrino observatory under Mont Blanc in the 1980s. cross link to MB Tunnel article.
•  Done add Percy Shelley poem quote to end of article lead.

Further tasks identified:

•  Done add footnote section

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Mont Blanc massif. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Corrected formatting/usage for http://ww2.cnrs.fr/en/309.htm?debut=256

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 23:52, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Mont Blanc massif/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Cwmhiraeth (talk · contribs) 08:44, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

I propose to take on this review and will make a detailed reading of the article shortly. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 08:44, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

• Initial comment - in the "Flora" section, the species names, and any genera names that may be used there or elsewhere, should be in italics. I have never seen other language Wikipedias linked in that way. Is there a precedent? Cwmhiraeth (talk) 08:51, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

You are quite correct; I will address this. Now  Done Parkywiki (talk) 21:47, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

First reading

Leaving the lead for the time being: -

• For a start, the article is very well written and most of the points listed below are minor errors.
• "The southern side the massif lies within Italy" - missing word. Done Parkywiki (talk) 01:14, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
• "The borders of all three countries converge at a tripoint on the summit of Mont Dolentat an altitude of " - missing word. Done Parkywiki (talk) 01:14, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
• "Across the massif there are now more than two thousand different mountaineering routes to the summits, and of a wide range of difficulties and lengths." - this sentence does not need the "and". Please deal with the "citation needed" tag. Done Parkywiki (talk) 01:14, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
• In the first paragraph of "Glaciers", you express areas in three different formats. You should choose one (with imperial equivalents) and stick to it. Done Parkywiki (talk) 01:14, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
• "Two of the bodies were discovered forty years later on the Bossons glacier in 15 August 1861." - "on" rather than "in", and it has already been stated that it was 1861. Done Parkywiki (talk) 01:14, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
• "having been carried 10,000 feet downhill" - You should stick to one main unit system; metric would be more suitable because the article is about continental Europe. Done Parkywiki (talk) 14:00, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
• "shielding provided by the 4,800 feet (1,500 m) " - ditto.  Done Parkywiki (talk) 14:00, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

this is a tricky one to get looking right, as the correct units are meter water equivalent - I'm relectant to explain this concept in the article, and hope that the wikilink to the cosmic ray measurement article would suffice? Parkywiki (talk) 14:00, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

• "collected over 600 pounds of specimens" - ditto. Done Parkywiki (talk) 14:00, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
• "The crystal museum (Musée des Cristaux) opened to the public in 2006, tells the story" - Punctuation needed.  Done (reworded) Parkywiki (talk) 14:00, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
• The sentence starting "However, near the summit of Mont Blanc" is a bit confusing because it is somewhat unclear where the "1,100 mm" refers to. Done Parkywiki (talk) 02:00, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
• The section "Climate" seems to be almost entirely about precipitation, although it does mention weather systems. It would be useful to include information on temperature, wind and other meteorological features. However, GA does not require an article to be comprehensive, so don't feel obligated to add this. In fact, you could just rename the section "Precipitation". Done

Fair point. I have temporarily renamed this section 'Precipitation', as you suggest, but will research this further and update the article when I have amassed sufficient data to meet the FA criteria. Parkywiki (talk) 02:00, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

• " from the valley bottoms at 500 m (1,600 ft) above sea-level," - safest not to mention these figures as they differ from those in the previous section. Done I think this was a typo in the original source - the IGN maps clearly show all valley bottoms starting over 1,000m Parkywiki (talk) 12:43, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
• "one of the loftiest patches of vegetation in Europe upon an islet of rock in the midst of a wilderness of snow and ice". - This statement needs a citation.  Done Parkywiki (talk) 12:43, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
• "with the designation of the Pavillon du Mont Frety protected area" - Perhaps add "as a" before "protected area".  Done
• "7,000 m²" - I thought that was the area of the protected area but in fact it is the size of the botanic garden.  Done (reworded) Parkywiki (talk) 12:43, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
  • That's all for now. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:31, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for this feedback, Cwmhiraeth. I'll address each of your points and mark each one when 'done'. Parkywiki (talk) 14:04, 6 April 2016 (UTC)  Done

• • Continuing -
• I am struck by the great gap in the "Human culture" section between 1741 and the 1930s. On further thoughts, I think the last two paragraphs of that section are out of place, because the next section deals with the gap. The final two paragraphs are not tourism-related so could perhaps form a short section later on.  Done
• "A trade in selling local items to visiting foreigners soon developed, with items such as horn objects, honey, and especially crystals from the mountains, collected from across the massif being much in demand." - This sentence is a bit convoluted and needs more punctuation. Done
• "It also reported that in that year the railway service to Chamonix, which had previously been suspended in winter, had begun to run two trains per day." - Perhaps it might be better to say that it ran throughout the year. Done
• Its not really logical to put the "Recent enhancements to tourist infrastructure" paragraph where it is because the article at this point hasn't mentioned the existing infrastructure.  Done
• "It was renovated in the aftermath, reopening 3 years later." - The subject of the previous sentence was the "fire". Done
• "From Chamonix the Aiguille du Midi Cable Car (fr) rises to the 3,842m summit of the Aiguille du Midi, and holds the world record for the highest vertical ascent of any cable car (2,807m)." - A citation is needed for this fact.  Done
• "It was carried out by jointly by academic institutions from France," - Too many "by"s.  Done
• "No evidence was found linking uranium contamination either to the 1986 Chernobyl disaster or to other nuclear power plants." - I think this sentence would be better as "No evidence was found that the 1986 Chernobyl disaster or nuclear power plants had caused significant uranium contamination." or somesuch.  Done
• "The Mer de Glace has retreated 2,300 m (7,500 ft)metres in length since 1820 and, at Montenvers, has reduced in thickness by 150 metres." - This sentence needs attention. Be consistent in how you write units.  Done
• "In the last 20 years it has been retreating at a rate of around 30 metres per year and, since 1994, has lost 500 m in length and 70 m in depth." - Ditto. It would be good to have conversions for all these measurements. Done
  • Finally, looking back at the lead and assessing whether it successfully summarises the article, I find:
• There is information on the "Tour du Mont Blanc " which is not mentioned in the body of the article. See end of Geography section
• The lead is too short. The first two paragraphs are adequate but the third paragraph needs expansion to cover the major points of the "Human history" and "Environmental protection" sections.  Done
  • Altogether it's an excellent article and I look forward to passing it for GA when these points have been dealt with. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:29, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

French alpine troops ascend to the summit of Mont Blanc. Illustration from Le Petit Journal, August 1901

Thanks for all your help, Cwmhiraeth. I believe I've now addressed all the points you raised. It's taken 4 months of solid work to turn this from a quite appalling list article to the state it's in today - there's still more that could be done, of course. (next stop: climate). Parkywiki (talk) 01:47, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

GA criteria

• The article is well written and complies with MOS guidelines on prose and grammar, structure and layout.
• The article uses many reliable third-party sources, and makes frequent citations to them. I do not believe it contains original research.
• The article covers the main aspects of the subject and remains focussed.
• The article is neutral.
• The article is stable.
• The images are relevant and have suitable captions, and are either in the public domain or properly licensed.

• Final assessment - The points that I have made in this review have been addressed. I believe this article surpasses the GA criteria. Well done! Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:15, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Featured Article nomination

Having just achieved 'Good Article' status, this article will shortly be submitted for Featured Article consideration. A few tasks remain before this can be done. This includes:

• replacement of 'image gallery' as per WP:MOS
• removal of duplicated wikilinks - Done
• receiving feedback from Peer Review - done
• checking of all citations against stated facts
• ensuring all alt-text is clear and meets the guidelines -done

Please feel free to make improvements which work towards meeting this target. Thanks Parkywiki (talk) 23:33, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Mont Blanc massif. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160610015522/http://archive.law.fsu.edu/library/collection/limitsinseas/ibs012.pdf to http://archive.law.fsu.edu/library/collection/limitsinseas/ibs012.pdf
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090620064252/http://www.montblanc.to/uk/glacier/texte4.html to http://www.montblanc.to/uk/glacier/texte4.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 19:15, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

External links modified (February 2018)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Mont Blanc massif. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160304051850/http://www.igsoc.org:8080/journal/56/198/j09j099.pdf to http://www.igsoc.org:8080/journal/56/198/j09j099.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 21:54, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Climate change impacts

Just placing this here for future consideration. Nick Moyes (talk) 21:51, 11 January 2022 (UTC)