Talk:Martin Hawke, 7th Baron Hawke

Lost its way?

This has the makings of a very good article but I think it has become bogged down in the details of Hawke's playing career. The GA criteria advocates that an article must "stay focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail" and "use a summary style". Coverage of Hawke's personal life, his captaincy, his technique and his administrative capability all comply with this standard but the career section does not. It is going off into the wide blue yonder and should really be started over. If a detailed account of Hawke's career is desired, I suggest that it be the subject of one or more child articles.

I've been working on the YCCC articles which cover the span of Hawke's career so I'll take this under my wing too. If no one objects, I intend to scrap the playing career structure and condense the text into a necessary summary of the key topics. I have the main YCCC histories but I don't have the Coldham book. However, I suspect too much attention has been given to that book formerly.

I'll try to make it suitable for GA nomination in due course. --Mykleavens (talk) 06:24, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Further to the above, I've assessed the article against the B-class criteria used by the cricket project. --Mykleavens (talk) 06:32, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Ready for GA nomination

Having made fairly extensive changes and added a lot of new material, especially for the period from 1888 to 1908, I think the article now meets the B standard (see criteria above) and I will shortly nominate it for GA to see if it can be improved further (as of course it can). --Mykleavens (talk) 10:17, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Martin Hawke, 7th Baron Hawke/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sarastro1 (talk) 20:55, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

This article has a lot to recommend it, and some of the sections are excellent. However, there are multiple issues and I do not feel I can pass this in anything approaching its current state. I have done a complete review but there is a lot of work and I think the easiest course is to fail it and allow work to be completed in good time. I think some more sources are required and quite a lot of material needs to go in for it to be comprehensive enough. With that in mind, I am going to fail the article, but I would be happy to look at it again once the work is done. I have left a list of questions and comments below. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:39, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

The official review:

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   There are several instance of un-encyclopeadic language and the lead is not of sufficient length. The prose is good in parts, but patchy.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   There are references to good sources, although more should be consulted. Also, I have not yet done a check for copyvio or close paraphrasing and this should be done at a subsequent review.

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   There are several aspects of his career missing, outlined below. Also, some of the article may focus too much on the Yorkshire team and politics and not enough on Hawke.

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

   Several examples of POV, outlined below, although most are only words or short phrases. The section on his administrative career does need more balance by including less favourable opinions.

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   One image has insufficient licensing information

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   As there is too much to do, I am failing this article.

More detailed comments and review

• The lead of the article is very short and does not fully summarise the article. There is nothing about his batting feats, University career, administrative roles or life outside of cricket. Agreed: to be expanded

• There are several examples of quotations in the article which do not have in text attribution but only a reference. Agreed: to be amended

• "Hawke held the office of Justice of the Peace (JP) for the West Riding of Yorkshire." Very short paragraph. Merged with previous paragraph

• There is nothing about his cricket at Eton, which would have been a big deal at the time. Added that he was coached by Mitchell and found refernce to his Lord's debut

• "Until he succeeded to the barony in December 1887, Hawke was styled on cricket scorecards "Hon. M. B. Hawke" (or just "M.B. Hawke") and afterwards as "Lord Hawke"." This is a very odd start to the paragraph, and would be better suited as a note to the text. Also, the two references are not really sufficient as they only give evidence of how he was styled in two matches. I think this should either go, or a better reference could be found. Or alternatively, see note 34 on Wally Hammond. I agree it should go. The personal sectioin has already noted that he was formerly an honourable. Removed.

• How did he come to make his first-class debut? For which team was he playing? Was it form or his position that earned his call up? I think it was his link with the Yorkshire Gentlemen, but this could be made explicit. Will look into this although there does seem to have been a seamless transition from YGCC to Yorkshire

• It may also be worth mentioning here (as well as around the point where he was made captain) that amateurs were uncommon (if not actively discouraged) in the Yorkshire team for a variety of reasons. I believe this is in Hodgson's history of the club. Okay. Will find reference

• It is a little odd to read Yorkshire CCC in several places. It is more common to simply refer to the team as Yorkshire. Done apart from one in a blockquote

• Apart from his first seasons, and the odd reference, there is nothing about his batting record. Even some of his averages or more successful innings would give some flavour of his batting. Although he was primarily known for his captaincy/autocracy, he was a reasonably good batsman by the standards of the day and the article does not really reflect this when recounting his career. In the whole playing career section, his batting is only mentioned once or twice. I think this is a serious omission. He seems to have been a decent bat at county level: will expande coverage

• The second paragraph of "Early first-class matches" seems very forced; if it belongs anywhere, it is before his debut and my inclination is to leave it out. It's in the wrong place but it could be a useful point so I'll find somewhere for it

• "He made his first-class debut, which was also his debut for Yorkshire CCC": "He made his first-class debut for Yorkshire…" Done

• "on 1 & 2 September 1881": on 1 and 2 September. Done

• A little more about his career for Cambridge. What did he study? How did he make the team, how did he perform in the university matches? Agreed: to be expanded

• The "Hawke's challenges as Yorkshire captain" section does not really fit where it is, and interrupts the flow of his cricket career at a time when he was only nominally captain. Pending. Should probably be relocated.

• There is quite a lot of detail about Yorkshire politics and team strife in this section; I would question if it all connects directly to Hawke. Nevertheless, given that he was at least indirectly involved and he did ultimately benefit from the long-term transformation, I think it is relevant

• "Coincidentally, it was in 1893 that Hawke's team won its first County Championship." Here and elsewhere, the text is misleading. The championship only became official in 1890, so no-one could win it before then. The distinction should be made between this and the "Champion County". Pending. Will look at this but the statement is true

• "This was no mean achievement as Thornton's bowlers included Billy Barnes, Ted Peate and George Ulyett." This suggests POV as the only ref is a scorecard which makes no judgements on the strength of the bowling attack. Not POV as the articles on those players make clear they were all Test bowlers. The problem is the phrase "no mean achievement" and all that is needed is rewording. Pending.

• The article twice mentions the dismissal of Ted Peate. Agreed. Will find best place for the information

• "Hawke soon showed them the door" Unencyclopedic. Agreed. Rewording needed

• "W.G. Grace said of Bates that he would have been the "greatest all-rounder of his time" but for his poor fielding (Grace himself was an outstanding fielder)." I'm not sure of the relevance to Hawke here. Nor of the fielding abilities of Grace to Yorkshire's standard of fielding. Pending. The essential point is that Hawke took steps to improve fielding standards and the case of Bates is a useful example of the problem

• "Yorkshire had acquired outstanding fielders": POV. On the face of it, but the sentence is cited to a page in the Coldham book although I can't check that

• "Yorkshire finished a creditable third": POV. Who says it was creditable? Should be cited or reworded. Pending

• "But it all fell apart…" Unencyclopedic. Agreed. Rewording needed

• "despite an outstanding effort by Peel": POV. No citation so rewording needed

• "Hawke's preparations for the next season involved playing several trial matches." He played them himself or arranged for the team to play them? Pending. Will look into this

• "But, in the longer term, Yorkshire reaped the reward of the shakedown…" Unencyclopedic. Agreed. Rewording needed

• "it went wrong again" Unencyclopedic. Agreed. Rewording needed

• "Worse than this…" POV No, not POV as it has been cited; but it does need rewording

• "It took time for the team to reshape…" I'm not quite sure this makes sense. Agreed. Rewording needed

• "his star in the ascendancy" Unencyclopedic. Agreed. Rewording needed

• The article mentions the many tours he went on, but gives no indication as to how or why he began organising them. Whose idea was it, who financed them, who chose the players? Why did he want to go? What was his role? And it is worth mentioning that the South African Tests he played were not regarded as Tests at the time and only retrospectively given the title. I think Gibson's Cricket Captains has something on this if you have it. Yes, I know this needs expanding but I gave up before I got around to it! Will have a look at it in due course

• "as the new team spread its wings" Unencyclopedic. Agreed. Rewording needed

• "even an unpleasant duty could produce a rich reward": This is very unencyclopedic and positively purple prose. I don't have the Kilburn book, but check this is not too close to the original. Agreed. Rewording needed

• "had some players, especially Wainwright, Tunnicliffe and Rhodes, who were outstanding fielders." This point has already been made. Will look at it again but it is in context within the paragraph

• "Kilburn stated that "Hawke's authority in the councils of Yorkshire grew because of the committee reorganisation of 1893 and grew again through his election to the office of President in 1898". For the next twelve years, till he retired from the captaincy in 1910, Hawke was "both captain in the field and commander in the committee-room"." Again, this seems to regurgitate points that have already been made. Same as the above. It may be the earlier expression of the idea that needs attention given the context

• In fact, the whole "Complete team" section seems to veer around alarmingly from one topic to another, repeating itself quite a lot. Will study this and rewrite where necessary

• In the administrative section, another short paragraph: "He was appointed treasurer of MCC from 1932 and remained in both this post and the presidency of Yorkshire CCC until his death in 1938." Merged with first sentence of next paragraph

• I think the "pray god" quote needs more context; again, it is in Gibson, but I think that it is also in Derek Birley's social history. Pending. Will explore the context

• The obvious follow up is Hawke's role in the attempted appointment of Sutcliffe as Yorkshire captain in 1927 and the subsequent furore. Agreed. Pending

• "Hawke's approach to cricket": I think this section is better split up and put into the playing career section as it does not add much here. Pending. Will look at this

• "Captaincy": I think this section is a little quote heavy and would benefit from more paraphrasing. Agreed. Rewording needed

• This section also seems a little starry-eyed. All the quotes come from amateurs or the "establishment" when saying what a jolly chap Hawke was. The other side is missing; for example, many professionals, including Rhodes and Hutton, detested the paternalism of the club keeping part of the benefit money. Also, Jack Hobbs had a real problem with him. There is nothing about the (probably modern) perception of Hawke as a slightly comic, colonel-blimpish figure which should be there for balance, or any modern judgements on him. Agreed. Expansion needed

• Why is there a second administrative section in "style and technique"? This would be better in the earlier section. It could be that a more appropriate tilte is needed. Will look at this.

• Why is there a bowling and fielding section? He did not bowl and there is not enough about his fielding to justify a whole section. Should probably be a footnote within an overall playing career piece that is mainly about batting

• File:Lord Hawke 1890s.jpg is questionable as there is no original publication information. Or even an indication of where the image comes from. I would suggest removing it. No problem with removal but I'd like to understand more about the site's copyright rules as this photo must be well over the 70 year limit

• A few other images would brighten the article a little, for example some of the players or other people mentioned. Good idea. Will see what I can find

• The external links to cricinfo are now redirects which should go to "espncricinfo" to avoid link rot Done

If you are unhappy with this review, you may ask for a reassessment or re-nominate the article at GAN. Good luck, and let me know if you want me to look again. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:39, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

• I don't know if you have library membership, but if you do you get free access to ODNB, and this ODNB article on Hawke is a pretty good summary, although it probably duplicates the book a little. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:56, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Per message on your own talk page, thanks for the needed comprehensive review. I've made some changes already and have answered remaining points in the inline comments above. This is a very difficult article to work with because it had been abandoned when going right off track and the main source used by the previous editor doesn't seem to be obtainable on the internet. It may well turn out that much of the previous editor's work will have to be rewritten or even removed. I'll work on it as time allows. Thanks again. --Mike^(chat) 18:33, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Surprised

Having been away from the site for most of this year, I'm surprised to see all the work that's been done on this in the meantime. I admit I "abandoned it" last year because I got fed up. It looks like Mikeleavens can't get hold of the Coldham biography I've got. I'm anti-FA/GA but one thing I would say, as Sarastro already pointed out, is it should never have gone near any kind of review with such a short lead. The purpose of a lead is to summarise the article and clearly there's been nothing done since I wrote a few short lines just to kick the thing off. It needs a lot more work than that brief intro. I take it the tours are still unfinished and Coldham is very good on those. But it's looking a lot better overall and the playing career section has really taken shape. If you want help that Coldham might provide, write to my talk page. I'm reclassifying it as C-class because it fails the criteria re the lead and the content is unfinished. ----Jack | ^{talk page} 13:07, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

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