Talk:List of burial places of founders of religious traditions

The Buddha

The article read, "The Buddha's body was cremated and the relics were placed in monuments or stupas against his dying wishes". Now, the rôle of stupas in Indian Buddhism is complicated, so there may well be something I'm not aware of, but I am not aware of evidence that this was "against his dying wishes", so I have removed that phrase as unsourced. Please correct me if I'm wrong.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 01:20, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

He actually says that no relics should be made of his body in his death sermon. I will source and reinsert. Lotsa Buddhist sects blatantly ignore the instructions in his death sermon, especially the parts about relics being forbidden and the disallowing of secret teachings. Sukiari (talk) 06:51, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Article should be deleted.

I believe this article should be deleted and the information moved to the appropriate pages.--Editor2020 (talk) 20:37, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

---

And the english should be corrected. Somebody who didn't know what they were doing added a few words here and there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.141.189.226 (talk) 03:22, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Muhammad (SAWS)

I have removed the salawāt (e.g. S.A.W.S) in this section to meet the standards practiced in the Muhammad article, where I am sure the discussion has been brought up and resolved to not include PBUH or SAWS, despite recognition of the practice by Muslims. 72.75.10.251 (talk) 19:56, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

WP:Death Commentary

I changed the assessment for WP:Death. This page is not a List, it's an article, and at the moment it's a fairly poor one at that. There is an abysmal lack of references, coverage, and accuracy. For a few examples:

• Confucianism is not a religion.
• While Christianity is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ, He did not actually establish a religion.
  • Saint Peter is credited as the first pope of Roman Catholicism.
  • Saint Mark supposedly founded the Coptic sect of Christianity in Egypt.
  • Saint Andrew started the Russian Orthodox Church.
  • Other Apostles brought Christianity to other regions.
• The section on "Other religions" is a hodge podge of unorganized information, some relevant to the article, though the religions with no founder should be listed in their own section. Boneyard90 (talk) 13:19, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Layout is a mess

Because this article has many photos and not much text (unsurprisingly), the layout is a bit of a mess. One solution would be to gather the photos together in a captioned gallery. The downside is that the text and relevant photo would be a little more separated, but I think it would improve the page on balance. Any views/objections? DeCausa (talk) 11:51, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Would you mind trying this out in a sandbox so we can compare the results? I agree that the current layout is not ideal. Shoplifter (talk) 12:03, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

something like this perhaps: de-linked sandbox. DeCausa (talk) 19:52, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I think that structure is better at the moment. If enough text was added then it would be warranted to have the images embedded. But right now, a captioned gallery is better. Shoplifter (talk) 06:33, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I'll put in in for the moment. The other way I thought of doing it would be something like the Infobox ethnic group template (the montage of thumbs at the begining of an article) but they would be too small to see anything probably. DeCausa (talk) 06:41, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

File:Green Dome of the Holy Prophet.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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it was a long time ago — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.58.94.34 (talk) 00:10, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Christianity, not each and every sect.

Noticed that someone has added Joseph Smith as the founder of the Mormons under "Christianity"... I will delete this para and suggest that as most major religions have their various sects we maintain this top-level style. If we included every variant of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism etc then this article would quickly become unwieldy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.161.212.40 (talk) 22:17, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Ah, I see Editor2020 has reverted to the version with a separate para for Mormonism and a separate para for one particular Islamic movement. If this is really how the article should be, can I suggest that in the Christianity section we also include St Peter (first Pope, arguably founder of the Roman Catholic church), Henry VIII (founder of the Church of England), Martin Luther (founder of the Lutheran church), John Calvin (founder of the Calvinists), Charles T Russell (founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses) and a dozen more that I'm bound to have forgotten, just for starters. Presumably there is also an originating figure for Sunni islam and another for Shia islam, so we should include those in the Islam section along with Wallace D Fard Mohammed (found of the Nation of Islam). Hinduism is going to get very messy as we'll have to detail each and every sect.

Of course, this will also mean that we end up with all sorts of edit war silliness as person A decides that historical figure X is not a true Christian/Muslim/Hindu/Jew/Buddhist and what should be a nice, concise and inarguable article becomes a behemoth of edit war fodder simply because someone has decided that Joseph Smith requires his own special mention.

In conclusion, this article SHOULD be about the key common founding figure to the overall religion (e.g. Jesus for Christianity, Mohammed for Islam). I would imagine that most people who aren't Mormons and haven't watched South Park have no idea who Joseph Smith even is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.161.212.40 (talk) 09:31, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Works for me. Editor2020 (talk) 01:26, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Ghost Dance as world religion?

I'd never heard of "Ghost dance" - I certainly don't think a new age movement qualifies as a "world religion". Should be removed I think.Gymnophoria (talk) 15:59, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Known Hoaxes in Christian Section

Editor2020,

I reverted you for 2 reasons. The first is that you are pushing fringe theories WP:FRINGE based on references from unreliable sources WP:RS (despite even those sources clearly stating the theory was exposed as fraud / hoax) without clearly stating that it's a hoax. Secondly, you are citing content on Wikipedia as a reference WP:Circular.

The bit about Jesus Christ becoming a garlic farmer in Japan is a proven hoax which even the reference used agrees with (in between marketing selling points). The grave of Jesus was created in 1935 to enrich a powerful local family and generate tourist revenue by claiming they found documents that Jesus wrote during his stint as an onion farmer (documents proven as fake).

Professor Kawamorita, a mainstream Japanese academic, wrote in "Research on the Hebrew Song Words in Japan", about the birth of this hoax:

"During the summer of 1935, when I set foot in Herai, the Tomb of Christ did not exist yet [...] I have nothing in common with Kyomaro Takeuchi, who posed as an oracle and a remote descendant of Sukune Takeuchi, and his group [...] who created that "Christ's Grave" fantasy in Herai, and I refuse to bear that responsibility."

Please create a new page if you wish to list fictional burial places of founders of world religions created through clever marketing to improve tourism revenues. Cheers! Meishern (talk) 09:02, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

NPOV

Recent edits of the section on Judaism brought to my notice that the language used mentioning a grave for Moses is written in a way that has us state that there is an actual burial place. We should only use such language when there is no dispute as to the historical reality of the character. Doug Weller talk 05:59, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

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Sri Aurobindo?

I am not finding anything about Sri Aurobindo in the article. I imagine he must have died in Auroville (an enclosure within Pondicherry), but am not sure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.245.189.172 (talk) 22:00, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Change the name of article

Its insulting to assume Hindus, Buddhist, Jains and Sikh's were buried. Applying this Abrahmic convention to all religion, specially to the Indian-origin "dhrama/dharmic" is POV and derogatory. Imagine the horror of followers of islam or christianity if the article title is changed to "cremation grounds of the founders of religions", you could be killed for it, literally. Luckily Hindus and Buddhists do not go around killing people for such mistakes. Just change the article name to a religion-neutral term such as by replacing "burial" with the "final resting place" or some such terms. 202.156.182.84 (talk) 18:11, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Deletion Nomination

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. J04n(talk page) 11:50, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Burial places of founders of world religions

Burial places of founders of world religions (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)

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This page is here since 2006. There are lot of problems with the article. There is a lack of references in the article. The article subject is unclear and confusing. First, what is World religion and what should be covered? Subsects and branches are unclear. Should they covered or not? The article lists Christian Science separately! Are Ahmadiyya Muslim? Article lists them separately. While Hinduism only lists Krishna. Is Krishna founder of Hinduism? The founders are all these religions or religious groups are not clear either. Some of them are mythical while some of them are historical and some can not be clearly identified such as in case of Hinduism. The article assumes that all such founders are buried and thus they must have "Burial place". It is not true. Several religious traditions do not bury dead. For example Buddhism. The final resting places are also controversial in many cases and historians do not agree about them. The subject itself is not narrow enough and clear. The information in the article is very poor with little hope of improvement. The article has been here since 2006 with not much improvement either. There are lot of issues and questions posted on its talkpage over the years. Nizil (talk) 12:03, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. Nizil (talk) 12:15, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Hinduism-related deletion discussions. Nizil (talk) 12:17, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. Nizil (talk) 12:17, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Buddhism-related deletion discussions. Nizil (talk) 12:19, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Islam-related deletion discussions. Nizil (talk) 12:21, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

• Keep. Deletion is not cleanup. The article's state is not that bad - it seems mostly correct. citations should be improved. Some NPOVing needed (particularly in terms of treating tradition as fact and for some perhaps alternative theories). What is a major or world religion is a question (in terms of cutoff) - e.g. Christian Science or Scientology would be on the edge of the branch/cult cutoff (though I could see them included). The topic would meet WP:SAL.Icewhiz (talk) 12:40, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
  • @Icewhiz:, can you clarify what is scope of article when the all three words in title are questionable "Burial place", "founder", and "world religion"? Do you think all religions have unique founders with clear burial places? Think about Hinduism. What will you include about it in this article where two words in the title do not apply to it? See Tomb of Jesus as the place of his tomb is disputed. --Nizil (talk) 14:23, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
    • I'll parse your statement to three:
      1. "Burial place" - I think this is straightforward - it is where a "founder" remain's are purported to be located at. There might be disagreement or different beliefs (particularly so for older relgions) - in which case different alternatives should be listed. When the burial location is a "belief" as opposed to a fact - we should state so. Jesus's place of burial (as well as Jewish figures) is a belief (in fact - there is doubt on the historicity of the figures). The burial place of Bahá'u'lláh is (I think!) a historical fact.
      2. "Founder" - While considering gods or deities as founders for Hinduism (Krishna) and similar pantheons is somewhat suspect (though perhaps possible) - many if not most world religions have clear human founders or alleged founders. We have List of founders of religious traditions - so it seems we can define founder elsewhere.
      3. "World religion" - I think one could agree on a fairly clear criteria. Yes, there are questions over whether say Scientology is a religion (some places recognize it as such, some do not, many do not have an opinion) - however in most cases it is fairly clear what is and what is not a religion. One could argue against "world religion" - or perhaps not. We do have a List of religions and spiritual traditions - so t seems it is possible to compile a list of religions.
    • In short - I do not see the problem here. It is fairly obvious that burial locations (or remains held outside of a tomb - e.g. Gautama Buddha) are notable. There might be a case to merge to List of founders of religious traditions - however due to some traditions of burial being uncertain or possibly needing to account for several such traditions it might get convoluted there - and that other list tries to list one founder, while for burial it make sense to list more than one founding figure if there is such a situation (e.g. I would think it would make sense to list both Shrine of the Báb and Shrine of Bahá'u'lláh for Bahá'í Faith). In cases where there isn't a founder or a burial place (e.g. ascended to heaven, unknown, or whatever) - we could omit the religion or state said status.Icewhiz (talk) 14:37, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
      • Thank you for your participation.

Re: 1. "Burial place" - All religions do not bury dead. So how will you list remains held outside of a tomb - e.g. Gautama Buddha? And these remains can not surely belonged to the historical Buddha. They are listed as Relics associated with Buddha, not burial place. So burial place is incorrect for Buddha. Hinduism, Jainism and Sikhism do not bury people either (mostly). So how can you list them under title of "Burial place"? In article, for Krishna (who is just a major deity, historicity not validated), the place of his death (which has questionable historicity) is listed, not "Buarial place", and there is no "historical" truth about it. The same applies to other Dharmic religions too. Look Change the name of article where it is questioned by someone in past. See The Buddha too. The burial is a tradition in Abrahamic religions which does not apply everywhere. See NPOV where someone had pointed about Moses whose grave is not exact place. The [Tomb of Jesus]] is not historically accepted place.

Re: 2. "Founder" - List of founders of religious traditions is not about "world religion founders". It list any and all traditions with incorrectly listing people as "founders". Take an example of Mahavira of Jainism. See Jainism#Origins. The origin is obscure and the religion is considered as "eternal". The mythology about it does not let decide founder specifically. So whatever you list is either incorrect or unsuitable. Look at Hinduism. It is also said as eternal and Krishna is just one major deity of thousands of other deities. He is not claimed as "founder". Can you pinpoint who is "founder" in the article of Hinduism? Will you omit Hinduism because it has not one founder or a burial place (as proposed above)?

Re: 3. "World religion" - We do not have article on World religion and is redirected to Major religious groups. Look at the article. Can you list which religions should be listed here? Look at the article Burial places of founders of world religions and say which religious tradition should/should not be in the list. Are Ahmadiyya part of Islam? If yes, it should be covered under Islam. Can you suggest a criteria for "world religion"?

Burial locations of major religious figures are notable but it is difficult to know where they are. And more we go in past, it becomes uncertain for many figures. It can be fairly listed for recent figures but it is problematic for many figures. I have pointed it above. I have questioned the scope of the subject. I have questioned the title. I have not questioned the notability of places associated with these notable figures. Thank you again for engaging in the discussion. Regards--Nizil (talk) 04:49, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Most of your points above could be addressed with a rename to say List of purpoted relics of founders of religious traditions (a bit long). A smaller, and probably due change, is World religion to major religion or just religion.Icewhiz (talk) 05:10, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

So you are widening the scope of the current article with "relics" and "religious traditions". Still "founder" is in question. The problem with term "founder" is told above. If you widen the scope of article further, it will be completely new article or possibly list of lists including articles like Relics associated with Buddha, Relics associated with Jesus. But still questions about Hinduism and other Dharmic religions persist.--Nizil (talk) 05:21, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Note: Information on Hinduism and Krishna is removed from the article by Icewhiz recently.--Nizil (talk) 05:28, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. The Mighty Glen (talk) 14:15, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Keep per Icewhiz. Propose rename to Relics associated with world religions.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 10:30, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

@Farang Rak Tham:, thank you for responding to the discussion. Your rename proposal is widening the scope of article further than Icewhiz's proposal. Your renamed article could list All the relics (btw world religion is bit unclear word, see discussion about it above) associated with the particular religion, not limited to one figure or some figures. This will too result in completely new article, very different from the current one.--Nizil (talk) 11:28, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

I would suggest limiting to founders relics/tombs/burial. Relics without founders is very wide indeed.Icewhiz (talk) 21:31, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

• Keep nom wants cleanup, article is useful and encyclopedic. Szzuk (talk) 20:39, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.