Talk:Yakuza (franchise)

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Combining logos

Can someone who has a photoshop program combine the original and current logos of the series, in the same manner of .png that's been done in the Souls (series) article? Osh33m (talk) 19:30, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Original research & addition sources template messages

The only thing I added was a Characters section, why is it for that reason you found it necessary to add that it is original research and that more sources are necessary? Everything I wrote there is true. The character's fictional age, the number of protagonists, it's all true. I can't go through the trouble of finding sources because a lot of the information is in-game. But the information is there. Please remove the template messages. Osh33m (talk) 14:49, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

That's not a valid reason to remove an OR/Source tag. Either add sources, or keep the tags. Or go edit a wikia. Sourcing is non-negotiable on Wikipedia. Sergecross73 msg me 18:54, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Well then maybe Wikipedia's rules aren't perfect. Osh33m (talk) 20:01, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Okay? Until you get them changed, you've gotta follow them. Sergecross73 msg me 21:45, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

With all due respect, you know they're never going to get changed if people like you are going to stay stuck in the past. Osh33m (talk) 16:43, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes, and similarly, people like you, who are too lazy to provide sources for their own work, certainly aren't going to bother even trying to propose changing the rules, which is just as well, as your ideas aren't anymore than "trust me" and "let me do whatever I want". So yes, we can drop that discussion, and cut to the chase. Like them or not, follow the rules. If you willingly go against them, you'll be blocked. Sergecross73 msg me 17:34, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

You call me lazy here, so, first of all, are you ignoring all the additions I have added to this page? The table for all the Yakuza games, I spent all of my free time doing that. Who was being lazy then? Where were you for that? You're ignoring everything that I've done to try and make this and every other page better. And that's just talking about this page. And second of all, I have said to you at least three times that because this game is biggest in Japanese with very little coverage in the west - just now getting some with the new installments, that the only such sources are the games themselves. I could look through YouTube playthroughs and link them, but wikipedia is not fond of using them as sources. Osh33m (talk) 18:16, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Who cares? If you can't source and verify it, two of the basic tenets of Wikipedia, it does not matter. The majority of the info you added is better suited for the Yakuza wikia, as was already presented to you on another post. And you claim that it's "big" in Japan, meaning Japanese coverage on it should be "big" too, and those sources can used per WP:NONENG, yet you have made no effort on that as far as I can tell. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 18:41, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

None of that is a valid reason for not adding sources. Add sources. The end. Sergecross73 msg me 01:16, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

There is no end to this. I'll repeat this as many times as I have to to get it through your head. The sources don't exist because there is little coverage of this series online other than playthroughs. You're just choosing not to care. But I care. And if this is the way Wikipedia is run then it's simply a weak point of the system. Osh33m (talk) 03:44, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Shin Ryu ga Gotoku

I have several issues with this, so I'll just cut to it: 1. The article states that the game is in development for PS4. There is no site anywhere that confirms this. No actual PS4 game has been announced (even if it probably is in development, but that's OR). 2. The game is sectioned as a main title. This isn't true. There are multiple sources that declare it as a spin-off, because it features the new protagonist. It will be canon, yes, but it won't be Yakuza 7. It will launch a new series that RGG Studios and Sega probably hope will be a successor to the current games, but so far it should be handled as a spin off. 3. The nature of the project seems unclear. THere seems to be the conception that they announced two games: Ryu ga Gotoku Online and Shin Ryu ga Gotoku. However, from the live presentation it seems that Shin Ryu ga Gotoku is actually an umbrella term for multiple upcoming projects, the first of which is Ryu ga Gotoku Online. Again, it is likely we will get a PS4 game down the line, but nothing has been announced, yet. And it got misquoted and mistranslated. There are only announcements for Ryu ga Gotoku Online which is part of the "New" Yakuza story (Shin Ryu ga Gotoku). Though admittedly, I don't have sources on that. MAybe someone knows japanese and can translate that part of the live event? Anyway here are the sources for the game being a Spin-off:

http://yakuzafan.com/kazuga-ichiban-new-protagonist-ryu-ga-gotoku-online-shin-ryu-ga-gotoku/

And for not being specifically being announced for PS4, yet:

http://segabits.com/blog/tag/shin-ryu-ga-gotoku/

http://www.dualshockers.com/yakuza-online-announced/

At least the PS4 remark should be changed. Also that the game is a spin-off.2003:E0:6BE7:8411:809:6EAB:AB78:C5B9 (talk) 21:40, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Original research and addition sources removal

I think it's time we removed those warnings on the article. Those were only there because of the characters section that nobody wanted but since then there have been sources added to that section. Everything written there is backed up and verified. So if there are no objections, I'm moving those tags. Osh33m (talk) 02:05, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

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Naming Conventions

So, as per WP:NCVG: Use the most commonly accepted English name first, if one exists. This is usually the official title in the initial English release, but not always. Subtitles and pre-titles are allowed if deemed appropriate but are not necessary and pre-titles should be replaced once an official title has been announced. In the case of the Yakuza games, these are the official English titles and should be used in the list, since they are also used for the other sections in the article as well as the individual articles themselves. As a matter of fact, many of the individual articles use unofficial names, such as Yakuza Kenzan and therefore violate WP:NCVG. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:E0:6F4F:1E11:71F5:8B4F:E710:36B0 (talk) 21:41, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

All of the pages are listed with their english titles. Yakuza (video game), Yakuza 2, Yakuza 3, Yakuza: Dead Souls, Yakuza 4, Yakuza 5, Yakuza 0, Yakuza 6: The Song of Life, and Yakuza Kiwami. In fact, that is what the timeline is for. The table on the other hand is to compile all of the installments in their original releases, hence why the section includes the original logo as well. You also did not fix the notes when you reverted. Please don't do it again. Osh33m (talk) 22:20, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

By the way, I'm not the one who changed the titles of the spinoffs, like Yakuza Kenzan. If you take issue with that then it's for those individual talk pages. Osh33m (talk) 22:25, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

First, I didn't think you were responsible for the page names, I just wanted to point out another issue that needs work. Second, what is the reason that the table has to use the original Japanese titles? You haven't given one. On the other hand, I can give you three reasons against: 1. It violates naming conventions as per WP:NCVG, which - as I said before - states that the most commonly accepted English name should be used primarily. For these games, this is not the Ryu ga Gotoku title (which is technically in itself a transcription and therefore only an approximation of the actual title which is written in Kanji and Hiragana), but Yakuza. 2. Suddenly using the Japanese titles of the games with no explanation, is just confusing for the average reader, especially since everywhere else in the article and even on their respective pages, the games are referred to their English titles. 3. No other page does this. Typically, the English title is listed at all times and sometimes, the original title is referred to in a note or, if a title does not have an English title, it uses the original as a substitute. Please, don't change the page back. Give reasons, discuss, help me improve the inaccuracies.2003:E0:6F4F:1E78:30C9:9E7C:252F:F847 (talk) 10:45, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

I did give you reason. It's for congruency. Since none the spinoffs were localized and the localized versions had different release dates, the table shows the original uniform titles in the series. And it doesn't violate WP:NCVG because the pages themselves Yakuza (video game), Yakuza 2, Yakuza 3, Yakuza: Dead Souls, Yakuza 4, Yakuza 5, Yakuza 0, Yakuza 6: The Song of Life, and Yakuza Kiwami all have the localized titles showing. And furthermore the timeline has them in their localized titles as well; the only titles that were localized. So there is no reason to change the table. Don't revert it again. Osh33m (talk) 19:57, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

As for the unofficial titles in the spinoff games, I asked in the talk page of Kenzan and the reply was, copy pasting, that under WP:COMMONNAME, which states Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources., and WP:NAMINGCRITERIA, where point #1, #2 and #4 apply to Kenzan and the others. I don't have a fight in that matter though. Osh33m (talk) 20:52, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

A note about the table

While the table does look exceptionally large, that is because it includes ALL of the installments in the series, which is the reason it is as big as it is. The table includes all the spinoffs, remasters, remakes, and major installments to cover the vastness of the series itself, to keep track of how many installments there have been to date. That's what makes it necessary. The timeline is there as well to round things off with just major installments. If it is removed again, I'll refer the user to this section. Osh33m (talk) 03:08, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Why is Fist of the North Star: Lost Paradise Considered a Spin-off?

So apart from the same developer and game engine why is this considered a spin-off title they are not based on the same story or take place in the same universe or the same characters? and the article does no explanation on why this is considered a spin-off. thanks 64.251.72.74 (talk) 23:24, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

I think it is considered a spinoff because it is using the old game engine and employing the same gameplay, only with a different protagonist. --Osh33m (talk) 03:28, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Yakuza 3 Michiru (drag queen) character substory

Dear All,

I am bringing this to wider attention as I have a life and a job so won't be able to tend much to preventing further vandalism by Cyberlink420.

User Cyberlink420 is trying to promote libel against SEGA and/or Yakuza development studio by pushing opinion piece articles claiming that a depiction of a drag queen character is trans-phobic.

If one were to think for themselves, one would realise you cannot be trans-phobic against a character that isn't trans-gender, much like you can't be a racist towards a character which is a straight, white, male.

So please do keep in mind and watch out for further edits by what appears to be promoter of malicious content (a.k.a. vandalism) by Cyberlink420.

Regards, — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.215.55.209 (talk • contribs)

I don't think you even understand what is being argued. The character is transphobic in the way they are portrayed through their depiction and actions, not because they exist. Yakuza 3 also has an actual trans NPC whose story is treated with much more dignity and respect, and other crossdressing characters who are treated like any other individual. Michiru, however, feeds into several negative stereotypes made about trans women such as through her sexually predatory behavior and unattractively-rendered character model, combined with Kiryu's constant misgendering of her. This is also not one opinion piece; multiple articles have called the Michiru content transphobic, while there are no sources that call the quests "drag-phobic" as you claim. Even the development team acknowledges that the content was transphobic, which is the whole reason it was removed from the remaster in the first place; to quote Nagoshi, "[Yakuza 3] is ten years old; back in the day, the perception of the LGBTQ community was different to how it is nowadays. It’s a different topic, with different ways of looking at it and talking about it, and so there are some substories that didn’t fit this modern spirit and so they had to be cut.". It's not your nor Wikipedia's responsibility to try and absolve Sega of fault, and your efforts would better be served elsewhere. -- Cyberlink420 (talk) 15:34, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 18 July 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Lennart97 (talk) 11:17, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

---

Yakuza (series) → Yakuza (franchise) – Per the naming convention guidelines in WP:NCVG#Media franchise. It is undisputable that this is a franchise, which consists of far more then just a main series of numbered video games, as there are several ancillary spin-offs that share certain themes. It also spawned book, film, radio drama, web series, tv series and stage play adaptations. Haleth (talk) 03:40, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support Per nom._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 08:22, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Egsan Bacon (talk) 15:58, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 23 September 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No move for the primary move request of this article, but move for the secondary request of Like a Dragon → Like a Dragon (film) and then change "Like a Dragon" to a redirect to this article. - UtherSRG (talk) 13:55, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

---

• Yakuza (franchise) → ?
• Like a Dragon → Like a Dragon (film)

– In this section, there has been about a week of discussion already to determine if Yakuza (franchise) should be renamed to either Like a Dragon or Like a Dragon (franchise), with the additional move of the article Like a Dragon to Like a Dragon (film) only applying if Yakuza (franchise) is moved to Like a Dragon the phrase "Like a Dragon" primarily refers to the franchise regardless of the title of the franchise article being changed. Seems the motivator behind this move request is a recent announcement (or two) that the franchise is having its name changed from "Yakuza" to "Like a Dragon". (I personally have no opinion in the matter.) Steel1943 (talk) 19:58, 23 September 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 19:58, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

(I opened an official move request due to the ongoing discussion and some move warring occurring with Yakuza (franchise). I also posted a "relist" of this discussion to make it clear that any comments prior to this time stamp refer to the original statement by Cyberlink420 below.) Steel1943 (talk) 20:02, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Nomination statement updated. Steel1943 (talk) 14:27, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Retitling the article

So with the announcement of the three new titles, it appears Sega is now fully rebranding the series to "Like a Dragon" in the west. Should the article be moved accordingly, or left where it is? -- Cyberlink420 (talk) 12:24, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Support I propose to take the Story of Seasons as an example. The description of older games can be retroactively changed to refer to the series by its new game as well. MaksimFisher (talk) 12:53, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Support After the announcement of three games with Like a Dragon and without Yakuza in the title, Sega is definitely rebranding the series and it's new name here should be Like a Dragon. ThePieMaster51 (talk) 16:03, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

I've moved the article and began updating descriptions of older games. Most Horizontal Primate (talk) 17:02, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Just finished doing the same for the rest of them. Other links to the franchise page will still need to be updated, though. -- Cyberlink420 (talk) 21:32, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Comment This article should be titled simply Like a Dragon since this is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and the film should be at Like a Dragon (film). --Mika1h (talk) 19:23, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Support Makes sense to me. -- Cyberlink420 (talk) 21:32, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. Yakuza is still overwhelmingly the WP:COMMONNAME outside Japan. The article should remain at Yakuza for the moment until that changes. I've moved the article back and am notifying WT:VG because this needs way more discussion. JOEBRO64 02:30, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose Yakuza is still well known as Yakuza in the west. --Masem (t) 02:48, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
  • Support Kotaku reached out to Sega on this who confirm that "Yakuza" is dead, the series will be known as "Like a Dragon" going forward. [1]. While "Yakuza" is still the more recognizable term, this is clearly an official name change that we should reflect. --Masem (t) 00:27, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

    Yes, this is correct. I would have pointed that out but I had mistakenly thought that's what spurred this conversation in the first place. Sergecross73 msg me 01:45, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Oppose for now. I can see this being revisited in the future after the release of Like a Dragon 8. For now, Yakuza is the WP:COMMONNAME.Skipple ☎ 03:09, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

• Too soon. Why is this happening on the day of the announcement before any time has been allowed to pass? When a billion dollar company tells you to jump, you should not immediately respond "how high?". Axem Titanium (talk) 03:36, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
  • @Cyberlink420 and Most Horizontal Primate: please self-revert all of your hasty edits to every single Yakuza game article. This discussion was barely open for 5 hours when you jumped the gun and started implementing the change. Axem Titanium (talk) 03:40, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

    I'm seconding this. @Cyberlink420 and Most Horizontal Primate:, there was absolutely no consensus for the change. Please undo all your jumping-of-the-gun ASAP. JOEBRO64 13:04, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

  • Cyberlink, please also undo your out-of-process category renaming of Category:Yakuza (series) to Category:Like a Dragon (series). You're supposed to use WP:CFD for that; you shouldn't just manually and unilaterally do it yourself. Axem Titanium (talk) 03:44, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

    More precisely, it can only be done after a successful move proposal of the main article, of which this is not. In that case, the category can speedily be moved at WP:CFDS. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 08:23, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Support Since Sega is now using the original title of the series overseas, it makes no sense to have the page use the old label. We should absolutely use the new title. Vantagetrooper (talk) 04:54, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose Per WP:COMMONNAME. Wikipedia is a lagging indicator of notability so it needs more time to fully establish the common name. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 08:20, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose even with the official rename, most of the sources referring to the game are calling it Yakuza 8 anyway.Muur (talk) 18:14, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

• Support The franchise's name has changed to a direct translation of its native name, the one employed on our sister Japanese Wikipedia, and most of the sources referring to it (Yahoo, IGN, Kotaku etc) have mentioned it is now factually known as "Like a Dragon". I welcome waiting more time to see whether the February 2023 release of Ishin! will make outlets use the new name more, but at the very least the new "Like a Dragon" logo should be employed since it is an official one - it is OK to also keep an old or more popular logo (i.e. "Yakuza") in the meantime but hiding the actual, current logo is against Wikipedia practice. Every time a North American sports franchise relocate we see the same talking point and consensus inevitably follows the official corporate renaming, with redirects being used for the older, still popular name if need be. The Last Scholar (talk) 19:39, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

This kinda reminds me of Persona's full title. I'm not sure what to do but if I were to drop my cents I'd say to wait until the next three games as I guess by that time the title Like a Dragon might become more popular to most readers. Notifications of the series' title when referring to a game or character are still ok to me.Tintor2 (talk) 22:09, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

• Really feels like it's just a matter of time before Like a Dragon is the common name. I'm indifferent on if we wait or cut to the chase. Sergecross73 msg me 23:25, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

  I'm referring to this for the record. Sergecross73 msg me 02:01, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

  This strikes me as WP:CRYSTALBALLing. We should not be changing to Like a Dragon unless reliable sources are, which will likely take several months if it's indeed the case. JOEBRO64 02:02, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

  I'm "crystalballing"...on my stance of staying indifferent...? I'm not necessarily saying change it now, I'm just saying it's realistically inevitable. I mean, seriously, what chance does "Yakuza" have at being the common name once every new box art, preview, review, press release, etc all start using "Like A Dragon" because that's the name used in that respective release? Sergecross73 msg me 03:19, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

  It likely does not, but that doesn't change the fact that currently it is the common name. Wikipedia usually doesn't react immediately on announced name changes because of the policies on names, which require it to have been in use for a while in reliable sources. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 12:52, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose: Per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CRYSTALBALL. Too early to tell. When or if the new name for the series becomes widely adopted among reliable sources, then and only then should the article be renamed. Ding Chavez (talk) 05:17, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose for now per WP:COMMONNAME. I do agree with Serge that a shift seems likely (and would not be heartbroken if the outcome of this discussion is a move), and we should revisit this after it's happened, but at the moment even post-"renaming" RS coverage of the series calls it "Yakuza".--Alexandra^IDV 08:08, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose at the moment per WP:NAMECHANGE. The majority of games are still known by the older name and the article should only be moved if the series name catches on in sources (when they refer to the series itself). IceWelder [✉] 18:29, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
• Support - Some reputable video game journalism outlets are reaching out to Sega about this. [2] [3] Sega sales reps are confirming that the Yakuza trademark is not going to be used for Western releases. Jackilometresan (talk) 16:26, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Any comments above this one refer to the question asked by Cyberlink420.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Steel1943 (talk) 19:58, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Discussion after move request opened

• Oppose moving the game franchise for the time being per WP:COMMONNAME, WP:CRYSTAL, and WP:TOOSOON. Just because Sega says it is now called "Like a Dragon" and not Yakuza does not mean anything to us (yet). I believe it is generally against the spirit of Wikipedia's aims to change content according to whatever the corporations in charge of the subject(s) say. For now, Yakuza is still overwhelmingly the common name that most people know the series by and will search for, and changing it to "Like a Dragon" at this time will only confuse readers who are not yet aware of this fairly recent change in branding. Until this changes, and we have multiple independent reliable sources that defer to the Like a Dragon name, and do so over a WP:LASTING period, which I am sure we will given time after the release of Ishin and Like a Dragon 8, there is no harm and in fact much more benefit in keeping the current name. ostensibly singular userpage (inquire within) 22:21, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

• Support moving Like a Dragon to Like a Dragon (film). I think it's pretty uncontroversial to say that the few who are searching for Like a Dragon are likely doing so for the video game series, and calling that film by the Like a Dragon title does make more sense as the common name than the game series. So, I would say do that, redirect Like a Dragon to Yakuza (franchise) and then add a hatnote to the top of Yakuza (franchise) concerning the film. ostensibly singular userpage (inquire within) 04:18, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

@Cyberlink420, MaksimFisher, ThePieMaster51, Most Horizontal Primate, Mika1h, TheJoebro64, Masem, Sergecross73, Skipple, Axem Titanium, Vantagetrooper, Zxcvbnm, Muur, The Last Scholar, Tintor2, Ding Chavez, Alexandra IDV, IceWelder, and Jackilometresan: Pinging participants in the discussion prior to this becoming an official move request in case any votes/comments want/need to be adjusted given the new structure of the move request. Steel1943 (talk) 23:33, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose as per WP:COMMONNAME, too early to change the name to Like a Dragon when Yakuza is still the common name for the franchise in the western world. I say wait after 6-12 months before revisiting this move discussion when Like a Dragon becomes the more common name for the franchise. TheDeviantPro (talk) 00:34, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. My views have not changed on the subject. Skipple ☎ 01:33, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
• Move the film but neutral on the franchise for now. The key factor for WP:NAMECHANGES is to focus on the post-change usage in independent sources. If these switch over, switch over, but if they don't, don't. The common name before the official change does not carry much weight. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 02:50, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

• Ah, I forgot about that part of the RM. I also support moving the film. Will change my comment. ostensibly singular userpage (inquire within) 04:11, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

• Aww heck, I guess I as "nominator" support moving Like a Dragon to Like a Dragon (film), then redirect Like a Dragon to Yakuza (franchise) or wherever Yakuza (franchise) ends up. Seems the phrase "Like a Dragon" primarily refers to the franchise regardless. (I still have no opinion on moving Yakuza (franchise).) Steel1943 (talk) 14:20, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. My opinion hasn't changed. It's still far too soon for the franchise's common name to have changed, and to tell if the name change will even stick. We can revisit this in 6–12 months. I do support redirecting Like a Dragon to this page and moving the film to Like a Dragon (film). JOEBRO⁶⁴ 17:24, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
• Still oppose 1st, support 2nd "Like a Dragon" should now be a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT, but the main Yakuza series page should not be moved yet. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 18:54, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Table Help

I added sections in the table under "Games" for Yakuza 3/4/5 remastered. I don't know how to color the tables to mark them as remakes. I put [style="background:#aaf;"] by the text in the chart. However, the background is still white. Please help/advise. Ike8omb (talk) 07:06, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Crime and Violence

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 August 2023 and 15 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): DqHx (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by DqHx (talk) 23:31, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

I think it's about time to change the title of the article to "Like A Dragon"

We already had 4 entries using the title.

Yakuza: Like A Dragon, Like a Dragon Ishin, Like A Dragon: Man who erased his name and Like a Dragon: infinite wealth. "Yakuza" is officially a dead title in SEGA's catalog, and there's a likely change that future remasters, if any, will drop the title as well.

Agree or Disagree with the move to "Like a Dragon" for the article? Samalik16 (talk) 23:53, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

I believe you'd need to request another move and hold the vote there to get the article re-titled, but yes, I wholeheartedly agree. IAmACowWhoIsMad (talk) 22:02, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 29 January 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus is that Yukuza remains as the common name of the subject. – robertsky (talk) 11:34, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

---

Yakuza (franchise) → Like a Dragon – The original move request was denied mainly for it being too soon to tell if Like a Dragon would stick as the WP:COMMONNAME for what was formerly called the Yakuza series, and for WP:CRYSTALBALLing the name change for the franchise when no new titles had as of that point been released under the Like a Dragon name, with several in the last discussion citing either a period of 6-12 months or until the release of Like a Dragon: Infinite Wealth for the move request to be re-evaluated. Now, however, both of those milestones have been hit, and there are now three titles released under the Like a Dragon moniker (Like a Dragon: Ishin!, Like a Dragon Gaiden: The Man Who Erased His Name, and importantly, Like a Dragon: Infinite Wealth, the first mainline entry in the series to use the new name). Given that this name change has now been used for multiple titles in the series and widely adopted, Like a Dragon has become the new WP:COMMONNAME for the series, meaning the title of the article should change as well.

Also, pinging Samalik16 and kindly thanking them for being the one to suggest this. IAmACowWhoIsMad (talk) 07:11, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

All of the above has to do with official names rather than the common name. What is the series usually referred to as in independent reliable sources? Dekimasuよ! 12:25, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to collate a bunch of sources and quotes from those sources here to help keep things focused on what game press is currently referring to the series as. For easy reference I will have all the sources at the top, with each source referred to by number. My sources are purely reviews of Infinite Wealth so that we have the most current perspective on what the series is being called. Also of note, every source refers to each game with its official title regardless of how the series as a whole is called, which you may take as you wish. Also, each quote is sorted into a different section based on how the series is being referred to.

-

Sources used:

[1] https://www.wired.com/review/review-like-a-dragon-infinite-wealth/

[2] https://www.gameinformer.com/review/like-a-dragon-infinite-wealth/passing-the-torch

[3] https://www.pcgamer.com/like-a-dragon-infinite-wealth-review/

[4] https://www.gamespot.com/reviews/like-a-dragon-infinite-wealth-review-the-things-money-cant-buy/1900-6418170/

[5] https://www.destructoid.com/reviews/review-like-a-dragon-infinite-wealth/

[6] https://www.theguardian.com/games/2024/jan/23/like-a-dragon-infinite-wealth-review-happy-yakuza-holiday

[7] https://rpgamer.com/review/like-a-dragon-infinite-wealth-review/

[8] https://www.ign.com/articles/like-a-dragon-infinite-wealth-review

[9] https://kotaku.com/infinite-wealth-like-a-dragon-review-kasuga-yakuza-1851190269

[10] https://www.polygon.com/24047430/like-a-dragon-infinite-wealth-review-pc-xbox-ps5

[11] https://www.eurogamer.net/like-a-dragon-infinite-wealth-review

[12] https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/like-a-dragon-infinite-wealth-review

-

CALLED "Like a Dragon"

• [1]
  • "RGG’s latest Like a Dragon game trades crime melodrama for deep character development."
• [2]
  • "Infinite Wealth continues Like a Dragon's change to turn-based combat (...)"
• [3]
  • "Like A Dragon's metamorphosis into an RPG series feels complete here (...)"
• [5]
  • "(...) it doesn’t take long for a seemingly simple trip to Hawaii to escalate into the kind of antics you’d expect from Like a Dragon."
  • "While I certainly think you can see a good deal of Like a Dragon within a similar playtime (...)"
  • "But it also tries to mask that the world of Like a Dragon has a lot of wandering encounters (...)"
  • "Among the wealth of Like a Dragon games we’ve had over the last year or so (...)"
• [7]
  • "Many of the side stories remind players how incredibly weird and wonderful the world of Like a Dragon is (...)"
  • "Poundmates, Like a Dragon’s version of summons, also have noticeable upgrades."
• [8]
  • "Along the way it becomes clear that while you can take a Like a Dragon game out of Japan, you can’t take the heaving hordes of weirdo enemy types out of a Like a Dragon game."
• [9]
  • "If you’ve played the original Like a Dragon or the recent The Man Who Erased His Name (...)"

-

CALLED "PREVIOUSLY Yakuza"

• [1]
  • "One of the Like a Dragon (previously Yakuza) series’ strongest points (...)"
• [9]
  • "Like a Dragon: Infinite Wealth is the latest in the long-running series of games formerly known as Yakuza."
• [11]
  • "Appropriate topics for a series (once known as Yakuza, RIP) (...)"

-

EQUAL REFERENCE TO BOTH Like a Dragon AND Yakuza

• [2]
  • "The Yakuza/Like a Dragon series has always been political (...)"
• [3]
  • "The second turn-based JRPG in the Like A Dragon/Yakuza series"
  • "(...) the real red meat at the core of any Yakuza/Like A Dragon game is the storytelling (...)"
• [4]
  • "(...) another aspect that is essential to the spirit of a Yakuza/Like A Dragon game is the optional activities (...)"
• [6]
  • "If you’ve ever played a Yakuza or Like a Dragon game (...)"

-

CALLED "Yakuza"

• [1]
  • "Infinite Wealth is missing the rich connection between people and place that usually gives Yakuza games their identity (...)"
  • "It’s just more of a slice-of-life Yakuza visual novel than anything else."
  • "Infinite Wealth is still a Yakuza game (...)"
  • "(...) while I often find these throwaway battles tedious in older Yakuza games (...)"
• [2]
  • "At one point, the Yakuza series was a cult classic relegated to small fanbases outside of Japan."
• [3]
  • "Enough drama to fill two normal Yakuza games (...)"
  • "As a longtime Yakuza player"
  • "It captures that familiar messy, loose feel of classic Yakuza combat."
  • "(...) this is almost equally a story about original Yakuza hero Kazuma Kiryu (...)"
  • "It almost feels like I was playing two separate Yakuza games (...)"
  • "(...) hype-inducing callbacks to classic Yakuza (...)"
• [4]
  • "It's the best of both Yakuza worlds (...)"
  • "(...) while upholding Yakuza's identity in remarkable ways."
  • "These are moments that remind you the Yakuza franchise is much bigger than any one game."
  • "Yakuza games have been great about giving you something tangible to fight for (...)"
  • "(...) the go-to minigame that perfectly captures Yakuza's personality."
  • "(...) unforgettable moments for those who've been on the Yakuza ride all this time."
• [5]
  • "(...) shirtless fist fights with back tattoos bared are all part of the Yakuza charm (...)"
  • "(...) where Kiryu can reflect on memorable events from previous Yakuza games (...)"
  • "Yakuza is no stranger to odd side games that eat up tons of time (...)"
  • "Usually, the appeal of Yakuza is that it has all this ridiculousness (...)"
  • "(...) turning the turn-based RPG into a Yakuza brawler for a short span of time."
• [8]
  • "(...) more flexible movement and proximity-based attacks that better reflect the rough-and-tumble tactility of the traditional Yakuza street fights."
• [9]
  • "(...) Yakuza introduced the world to its gripping tale of Japanese gangsters struggling to survive the complex loyalties and alliances of the criminal underworld (...)"
  • "Infinite Wealth’s story works for Yakuza veterans and newcomers alike"
  • "Some references to past events and the structure of the Yakuza itself might feel a little much for someone brand new (...)"
  • "Its story will be most rewarding to those who have played previous Yakuza games (...)"
• [10]
  • "The Yakuza series — of which Infinite Wealth is the latest entry, despite a confusing name change (...)"
  • "None of the previous Yakuza games are as grand as Infinite Wealth (...)"
• [11]
  • "(...) Yakuza's excessive delights head to a crime-ridden Hawaii"
• [12]
  • "Thank goodness for Yakuza."
  • "Well, in swaggers the frankly ginormous Like A Dragon: Infinite Wealth to tie off the loose ends and give us a follow-up that links all the best bits of Yakuza into a far more satisfying reward loop."
  • "What's wonderful about Hawaii is how it perfectly compliments Ichiban's personality and, to some extent, Yakuza as a whole."
  • "It easily sits as one of my favourite Yakuza locales ever (...)"
  • "But Infinite Wealth is still a Yakuza game with Yakuza-isms that will grate for some."
  • "Infinite Wealth's finally found the right blend of turn-based and chaos to graduate from an experiment that went well, to a series staple that feels uniquely Yakuza."
  • "While some niggling Yakuza jank lingers (...)"
  • "But it does the Yakuza thing!"
  • "Yakuza's always been big on extra side stuff and Infinite Wealth has taken it up several notches (...)"
  • "(...) a bit of a mash between AC and Yakuza's real estate mini games of the past."
  • "(...) retains some of Yakuza's more annoying quirks (...)"
  • "I'll say it again: thank goodness for Yakuza."

I will leave some of my own analysis of these sources in a reply below. Also, apologies if this is a bit too long, I just wanted to be very thorough and transparent in my sourcing. IAmACowWhoIsMad (talk) 22:31, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

I think it would be easy to point to the large number of references to it as Yakuza and to say that that means it is still overwhelmingly the common name, but you may notice a lot of the sources that call the series Yakuza also call it Like a Dragon or refer to it as a former name for the series. Only Rock Paper Shotgun never refers to it as Like a Dragon or as a former name for the series. Polygon uses Yakuza but still refers to the name change, even though it is described as confusing. Moreover, I think the fact that Like a Dragon: Infinite Wealth is always referred to by its official name, which I didn't catalogue for obvious reasons, speaks for itself as proof that the name for the series has changed. I feel that Yakuza is often used not necessarily because it is the common name for the series overall but simply because it is easier to type quickly when you are writing a review, and people will still know what you are referring to. IAmACowWhoIsMad (talk) 22:42, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose The WP:COMMONNAME remains "Yakuza" despite the rebranding as "Like a Dragon". How could it not, when the broader series remains very popular and is still called "Yakuza". (Yakuza 0 has not been retroactively renamed "Like a Dragon 0" for example). Just check this IGN article from today which still calls it the "Yakuza series". [4] I rest my case. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 16:10, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

  "Along the way it becomes clear that while you can take a Like a Dragon game out of Japan, you can’t take the heaving hordes of weirdo enemy types out of a Like a Dragon game." - that is a quote from the IGN article (https://www.ign.com/articles/like-a-dragon-infinite-wealth-review for those interested). Clearly they are indeed referring to the games as the Like a Dragon series, not as the Yakuza series. And considering that every new game has been and will be called Like a Dragon, anyone familiar with the new name will just be confused why it hasn't been changed yet. It is in active use, no one is calling the new game "Yakuza: Infinite Wealth", and even the IGN article refers to the series as the Like a Dragon series. If an article is meant to represent the current state of things, how would the article be more accurate to refer to the series as the Yakuza series when more and more games come out that aren't even called that? IAmACowWhoIsMad (talk) 20:37, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

  Calling it Yakuza now is like calling Final Fantasy 6 as "Final Fantasy 3" because, "That's how it was", even though how it was, was a dumb localisation decision that's NOW starting to age poorly in similar fashion to Final Fantasy, especially thematically.

  When it comes to marketing and naming schemes, Like a Dragon has officially delocalized itself as a series name now. As such, the name of the article must be changed and use "Yakuza" in the historical tense, avoiding any aspect of primary description. Samalik16 (talk) 21:31, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

  "Calling it Yakuza now is like calling Final Fantasy 6 as "Final Fantasy 3"..." Umm, no, and nice red herring. What you meant to say was "Calling it Yakuza now is like calling Dragon Quest as "Dragon Warrior"...", but no, the Yakuza/Like a Dragon series is not at this point yet. In addition, you are referring to a name change of the game after it was released ... which is not the case for the 8/9 Yakuza titles since they are still called "Yakuza" with no known plans to officially change all their names to "Like a Dragon". Steel1943 (talk) 21:49, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

  That's a straw man argument. My argument was never that we should call it Yakuza because "that's how it was", but because it is the current WP:COMMONNAME, which is not the case for Final Fantasy VI. This is also not about whether I think the name is good or not. However, Japanese games went through much more heavy-handed localization back then, as can be evidenced by the original Yakuza. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 08:35, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support - It's time because at least 3 games (Ishin!, The Man Who Erased His Name, and Infinite Wealth) were published in the west with the brand name, Like a Dragon. The Western brand name change is similar to what happened with Square Enix's Dragon Quest brand name in the late 2000s. It was previously known as Dragon Warrior in the West. Wikipedia has used the Dragon Quest name for all of their articles. Jackilometresan (talk) 00:03, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

  ...The "brand name change" you reference resulted in all the existent "Dragon Warrior" titles being proactively renamed "Dragon Quest" in future re-releases. That has not yet happened with any of the titles named "Yakuza" in this article's series, so that argument doesn't apply yet. Steel1943 (talk) 19:14, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support - Whilst it's more ambiguous than I'd like, it definitely seems to me like most uses of "Yakuza" are referring to the past and past games, whereas use of "Like a Dragon" is a lot more present. Also, as for Rock Paper Shotgun, it may be more of the reviewer's personal preference to only use "Yakuza", as other articles from different RPS writers use "Like a Dragon" a lot more, such as https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/its-frightening-how-fast-we-have-to-release-like-a-dragon-games-to-stay-relevant-says-yakuza-writer. NyanKatGrrrl (talk) 15:52, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. Not enough has changed since this was last discussed. The current name is still the WP:COMMONNAME, given the game count at this point is like 9 for the current title and 3 for "Like a Dragon". Give it a few more years/games: "Yakuza" is still the more recognizable name. Steel1943 (talk) 21:42, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per ZXCVBNM and others. The proposal rationale is functionally the same as the last time this was discussed ("SEGA calls it that and we should call it that as well") and nothing has meaningfully changed since that time (people generally still call it Yakuza, and we name articles and refer to topics according to how reliable sources refer to them, rather than corporate branding). The common name of the franchise as a whole overwhelmingly remains "Yakuza", even as the new games assume and are referred to under the "Like a Dragon" branding. Assuming that the games continue to be released under the LAD branding in English-speaking regions, I believe it will be a matter of years, rather than months, before this state of affairs shifts, if indeed it does at all, and for that to happen there would likely need to have been more games released with the rebranded series name attached than without- but it is not our place to get ahead of that curve. silviaASH (inquire within) 14:15, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. Wikipedia does not rotely acquiesce to corporate rebranding. Thank you to IAmACow for the source review that clearly shows many publications actively resisting the change by including both names and often using "Yakuza" as a shorthand. The closest comparison I can think of is Twitter, a corporate rebrand that has been so thoroughly rejected by basically everyone that they don't even dare change the url of the website. Axem Titanium (talk) 19:53, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

  I feel like it's not necessarily "resisting" the new name, so much as sticking with the old one so as not to confuse readers. If I said "I really recommend playing the Like a Dragon series!", the uninitiated might just pick up Yakuza: Like a Dragon because it's the first one to have that name in the West. It's possible that Yakuza will remain the common name for games 1-6 indefinitely, while Like a Dragon will be the new arc going forward. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 11:20, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

  @Zxcvbnm: That is kind of in line with what I was thinking is the ultimate game plan: Even though the two titles are connected and are referred to as the same series, ultimately, they may be two distinct topics to English readers to a point where "Like a Dragon" is the successor to "Yakuza" instead of both being the same topic, and thus the article may need to be split in the future. Steel1943 (talk) 01:00, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

  Even that won't work. Even if Kiryu's entire saga uses "Yakuza" as the name, his latest entry also uses "Like a Dragon". It's time to move past "Yakuza". It's only having the article stay stuck in the past.

  Even if one wants to say "SEGA doesn't own this page so we're not going to the whims of a corporation" as I think someone already did here, they still ultimately own what the page is about. As such, the page needs to change to reflect current events. Samalik16 (talk) 01:28, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

  Umm, your main point was already refuted by the opposers, and it looks like the point I was making was not responded to in any adequate fashion. (It's not about what "works", it's about what "is" and how it's perceived.) In other words, see WP:SOAPBOX and maybe WP:BLUDGEON. Steel1943 (talk) 03:56, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

• Comment If the move fails, can we agree that the lede should have the "Yakuza" name mentioned first? It keeps getting reverted by fans unfamiliar with the COMMONNAME policy. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 13:50, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

  Yes. There's absolutely no reason why this should not be the case. silviaASH (inquire within) 18:34, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.