Talk:Joey Gibson (political activist)

Unnecessary Snarky (?) Quotes

It is not necessary to use quotation marks to observe that he, for instance, regards himself as a moderate libertarian. Just say moderate libertarian and cite the document where he says that. Unless you're trying to be snarky. In which case that is not an appropriate tone for a reference work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.127.17.241 (talk) 08:42, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Background of his personal life -expand

This [1] article gives some of the most detailed background on his personal life before becoming a public figure:

• 'The page says he’s married to Haley Gibson, went to Camas High School,... Gibson grew up in Camas, played quarterback at the local high school, got into trouble with the law, including a break-in at a restaurant, according to the Columbian report; he later spent some time in jail and dropped out of school, causing him to be homeless for a while, living in Portland, Seattle, Mexico and Hawaii; When a former middle-school athletic director asked him if he wanted to coach football, Gibson took the opportunity to “clean up” his life, he told The Columbian; coaching at Skyridge Middle School in Camas, Gibson got his high school equivalency diploma and went to Central Washington University to pursue a degree in psychology; he ended up coaching around the county and even tried his hand at flipping houses just before the housing market crash;'

Being a Bio of a living person, I'm not sure how much of these details should be added, even though he has spoken about his past very opening and how he turned his life around. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 21:45, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

That would be excellent detail to add. MB298 (talk) 22:06, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

It would be best for you, MB298, or someone else to add the information and the reference. His wife is of note for her key role and support of his activism and his Senate race. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 23:45, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Will do, tomorrow probably. MB298 (talk) 03:23, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

P.S. "Gibson doesn’t see himself as right-wing, and shuns most political categorization beyond conservative-libertarian." [2] - If that is helpful for the lede section. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 04:06, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

BLP Violation

A BLP violation sourced to a student newspaper was repeatedly restored by PeterTheFourth. I've removed it. It should stay out unless additional and reliable sources confirm it. D.Creish (talk) 05:14, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

And I've restored it. Discuss this change first before reverting. If you revert again, you'll be at 3RR, btw.--Jorm (talk) 05:17, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

It's sourced. Is it a BLP violation? Maybe, maybe not. But it's sourced. If you want to argue about the validity of the source, that's open for business, either here or (hopefully) at WP:RS.--Jorm (talk) 05:18, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

I've expressed my concern. Address it and get consensus before restoring it. D.Creish (talk) 05:20, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

I believe you're the only person expressing their concern about this source, D.Creish - it may be best to take this to a noticeboard or something if you're adamant that there are sourcing problems. PeterTheFourth (talk)

Normally the BLP concern would be valid but there's three editors who disagree with you and the text is indeed sourced. Volunteer Marek 22:44, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

RfC: Assault allegations

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Consensus is unclear as to whether the source in questions meets RS. It is clear that it is insufficient in the context of the gravity of the accusations. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 19:44, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

---

Should the article contain the following statement cited to this article [3] in Vanguard, Portland State's student newspaper?

Gibson has also drawn internal criticism from allegations about a habit of using violence against members of his own organization after consuming alcohol.

D.Creish (talk) 21:26, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Pinging editors who restored the statement @Calton: @Grayfell: @Jorm: @PeterTheFourth: D.Creish (talk) 17:37, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose - Serious (criminal) allegation, weak source. D.Creish (talk) 17:37, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support - the source is a notable newspaper, with long history (was established in 1946) and several awards received for its publications. So it has the right to be considered as "reliable" and be used in such articles.107.242.117.2 (talk) 18:31, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

• Weak oppose. It's a tough call. If not exactly an overwhelmingly impressive publication, I think the source probably meets WP:RS standards. And, afterall, that reference only serves as a secondary source aggregating and reporting on various primary sources making the original accusations in highly public social media forums. But at the end of the day, this is an WP:extraordinary claim, nevermind the fact that it might seem to us to fit with previous reporting on the personalities involved, and it requires a certain standard of sourcing--particularly as the proposed wording refers to a supposed "habit" of such behaviour. Under the circumstances, either additional sourcing, adjustment to the proposed wording or both are called for here before inclusion becomes appropriate. Snow ^{let's rap} 01:45, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
• Change wording I like the points made by Snow Rise. I do think that the material is reliably sourced and due for inclusion, but the current wording could use some changes - we don't need to include the 'habit' wording - possibly it would be better as 'history of'. PeterTheFourth (talk) 03:05, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose inclusion per BLP. The reference is extremely poor. If someone takes it to RSN and it's judged reliable for the information in a BLP, then his RfC should be revisited. --Ronz (talk) 15:52, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:BLP. A pretty vague accusation from a source of questionable reliability, I could not find any other reliable sources to support same accusation.Omgwtfbbqsomethingrandom (talk) 21:37, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

• Without additional sources, I Oppose this on BLP grounds. Volunteer Marek 22:12, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose unless better sources are brought forward. We have a very high standard of sourcing for allegations of criminal misconduct before any charges are even filed. An advocacy piece in a newspaper published by college students is not enough. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:47, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose Needs better sources, as mentioned by others, under the BLP.(Summoned by bot) ^Thanks, L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 21:40, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Lost Senate race:

Joey Gibson received 31,905votes (2.3% of the vote) and failed to secure the needed votes to proceed to the general election in November: [4] In case anyone gets around to updating. 24.16.106.217 (talk) 23:51, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks! Done! --Jorm (talk) 00:21, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

"Many activists are referred to as being white supremacists"

Gibson's political activity is frequently met with criticism. Many activists are referred to as being white supremacists.

Until there's consensus for it's inclusion, properly sourced, and following our content policies, it needs to remain out per BLP. Thank you.

It's not clear what it means, how it relates to Gibson, or why it is worded as it is, or what from the ref supports any of this. I'll look through the article history and report back. --Ronz (talk) 23:52, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

• [5] changed from Many members of Patriot Prayer are referred to as being white supremacists. without explanation. This is what brought me to the article. The change of content seems a POV vio. --Ronz (talk) 23:56, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

• [6] changed from Members of Patriot Prayer.... Other content changed as well, and this was part of a series of edits.

• [7] First use of the ref and creation of the sentence. --Ronz (talk) 00:13, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

I think the Many members of Patriot Prayer are referred to as being white supremacists wording seems most likely to make sense in this article. However, I don't see how the one reference verifies it, and note that Patriot Prayer doesn't have corresponding content. --Ronz (talk) 00:31, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

References

• "Gibson strives to depict Patriot Prayer as a big tent, and it is. It’s a canvas draped over a grotesque circus whose cast of characters regularly features Nazis, white nationalists, skinheads, neo-Confederates and a melange of other miscellaneous bigots. Despite Joey’s repeated insistence that they are not invited, members of neo-Nazi groups like Identity Evropa and the Daily Stormer Book Clubs still turn out to his rallies on a regular basis." [8]
• "Organizers of a counter-protest said that while Patriot Prayer denies being a white supremacist group, it affiliates itself with known white supremacists, white nationalists and neo-Nazi gangs. [9]
• "Yet, in the past, white supremacists, white nationalists and neo-Nazis have participated in Patriot Prayer's events." [10]
• "What Is Patriot Prayer? The Right-Wing Organization Has Connections With White Supremacy" [11]
• "Members of the two violent far-right groups, Patriot Prayer and the Proud Boys — both of which have deep ties to white supremacist organizations" [12]
• Note: This is not a case of only one source, or one person's opinion, but it seems to have a number of supporting documents. - 24.16.106.217 (talk) 12:44, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

You didn't address any of the concerns with the current content and reference at all.

If you want to make an edit-request with a new source, that would help. Please be sure that the source is reliable and properly verifies the information being proposed.

I don't see how any of the proposed refs above properly verify the content.

Please don't add the content again without consensus, so as to avoid violating WP:BLP once again.

You should first get consensus to include similar material in Patriot Prayer. --Ronz (talk) 15:50, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

I don't think you'll find any consensus to use medium.com as a reference at all. --Ronz (talk) 15:57, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

I agree, as the source seems to be essentially a blog and generally not up to the level of WP:RS. But USA Today, Al Jazeera, The Huffington Post, and Bustle are all sufficiently reliable, and all quite directly identify a far-right aspect to Patriot Prayer's activities and associations. That said, I agree with your other two minor notations as well: 1) it may be more pragmatic (though not required by policy) to sort the issue at Talk:Patriot Prayer first, if (inexplicably) that article does not have any mention of these connections as yet, and 2) I think something more similar to your wording ("Many members of Patriot Prayer are referred to as being white supremacists.") would flow better and be much clearer than "Many activists are referred to as being white supremacists." I wouldn't be surprised if we can find sources labeling Gibson himself as a far-right agitator, but I think the point is made when you notate the character of the organization itself. And crucially, I think we'd need more on-the-nose sourcing to support the claim that Gibson himself is a white supremacist. Saying that Gibson has proved controversial and then mentioning the (sourced) assertion that the group he heads has been regarded as white supremacist/far right is a reasonable middle ground solution that balances WP:V and WP:BLP. Snow ^{let's rap} 00:30, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

I did a Google search of "Patriot Prayer white supremacists" and these came up on the first page of the 280,000 results; I did not bother looking further as there seem to be so many sources that make a direct connections with Patriot Prayer protests attracting white supremacists. Patriot Prayer has also invited them to speak at a number of their rallies and have had some very open relationships with known white supremacists. Yes, the group repeatedly denounces racism and white supremacists publicly, but they continue to show up with their Confederate Battle Flags and their OKKK hand signs from the sources. 24.16.106.217 (talk) 16:12, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Recommendation that more sources be used to support this statement and that the text be changed as suggested to: ("Many members of Patriot Prayer are referred to as being white supremacists.") 24.16.106.217 (talk) 16:14, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Political activitism

Jorm: Please explain what makes this text undue in this context: "He came in fourth in Washington State’s "jungle primary" in September 2018 with 2.3% of the vote and did not advance to the general election in November of that year." What IS the context? Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 17:22, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

The primary sources cited gives the vote outcome and nothing more. The source for the other sentence of the paragraph is brief coverage of his announcement to run, which is little more than NOTNEWS's routine news reporting of announcements. It looks to be a failed publicity stunt. Whatever it was, it seems noteworthy only because of the position and people he ran against. --Ronz (talk) 22:59, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Joey Gibson has a few articles of him on the anti-defmation leauge,Splc has plenty of articles and he is on Hatewatch, some of this has to relavent to his political activity right?--Moredps (talk) 00:42, 29 March 2019 (UTC)moredps

Political position?

Given the political positions listed in this article, there appears to be nothing to merit the description of him as "far-right." This appellation should be supported by evidence or removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.59.66.123 (talk) 01:40, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

The content is fine given the reference. --Ronz (talk) 02:39, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Rally

Gibson's political activity is frequently met with criticism. Nine days after far-right advocate Jeremy Joseph Christian allegedly stabbed three men on the Portland TriMet transit system, Gibson hosted a rally on April 2, 2017 which was met by thousands of counter-protesters. Christian was seen at the rally yelling racial slurs. Gibson denounced Christian's actions and said he ejected Christian from the event due to his "bizarre behavior".

References

Gibson's political activity is frequently met with criticism. Nine days after a far-right advocate allegedly stabbed three men on the Portland TriMet transit system, Gibson hosted a rally met by thousands of counter-protesters.

References

I've not looked at the history of how the sentence came to be, but making it more about someone other than Gibson seems like coatracking. --Ronz (talk) 19:36, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

It's not. It's sourced information, which does not require a consensus to be added. It takes a consensus to remove sourced information. Do not do so again until you have a consensus to do so from the editors on this page. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:22, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

The burden of evidence rests with the editor who adds or restores material. WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE provides further details. --Ronz (talk) 02:06, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

That burden has already been overcome by the use of a supporting citation from a reliable source. Now, if the sourced material is to be removed, the person who wishes to remove it must get a consensus to do so. Please make your argument here and we'll see what happens. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:30, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, no. You certainly know that a reliable source doesn't solve all content problems.

If no one else will do the work to find clear consensus, I will, but please stop edit-warring in the time being.--Ronz (talk) 02:34, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes, since you are the one who wishes to removed sourced information, who else do you expect would have to get the consensus to do so? Also, you're still not understanding the way this works. You don't remove the information you want and then get the consensus, you get a consensus on this talk page from other editors and only then (if you get it) can you remove the information.

BTW, for those reading, here is the current, sourced, version of the sentence(s) excerpted above:

Gibson's political activity is frequently met with criticism. Nine days after far-right advocate Jeremy Joseph Christian allegedly stabbed three men on the Portland TriMet transit system, Gibson hosted a rally on April 2, 2017 which was met by thousands of counter-protesters. Christian was seen at the rally yelling racial slurs. Gibson denounced Christian's actions and said he ejected Christian from the event due to his "bizarre behavior".

References

Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:47, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

You're not paying attention. Please stop, take some time to read everything that I've written, then let's see how we can move forward. --Ronz (talk) 02:51, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: Can you please stop edit-warring? --Ronz (talk) 02:46, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

• You must leave the article in the state it was in, with the sourced information in it. You cannot remove the sourced information without a consensus to do so. You keep attempting to remove it without a consensus. Editing without a consensus is disruptive., Please stop your disruptive editing. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:49, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Repeating yourself doesn't help your case. --Ronz (talk) 02:53, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

It might, however, help you to understand how the system works. Get the consensus, then make the edit, not vice versa. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:02, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

• You know that ain't how these things work, BMK. When information is disputed in a BLP, the default is to leave the information out until a policy-conforming consensus is built to include it. You've been here far more than long enough to know "There's a citation, therefore it stays" is the utter height of bullshittery. A citation is a necessary, but in itself insufficient, for the inclusion of any information in the article. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 03:10, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

• Nope, BLPs do not get a free pass. Only if the information is defamatory or otherwise apparently violates BLP. There is not even a claim here that this is the case. In fact, the information as now written says specifically that Gibson disapproved of Christian's behavior at the rally, and threw him out. How can that possibly be a BLP violation? Answer: it can't be. There is no putative or implied connection between Christian and Gibson, the fact of the stabbings put the city on edge, and Gibson was criticized for holding the rally anyway, not for any connection with Christian.
  Do you actually, you know, read the article or the supporting citations, or did you just parachute in to annoy me? The latter, I would guess, since you've never edited this articvle before. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:21, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

What in the flying fuck is "BLPs do not get a free pass" even supposed to mean? You're not seriously making the claim that you get to include anything you want as long as you have a citation for it, are you? And that it gives you a "free pass" to editwar yet again?

There is an alleged BLP violation. The violation gets removed until it has been determined it conforms to policy and consensus. You're fully aware of this, as this is not the first time you've put people through this horeshit and made these horseshit claims. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 03:45, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

It's an "alleged BLP violation"? Really? Where do you see a BLP violation being alleged? What's the violation, specifically?

You know, not every content dispute on a BLP article is about a BLP violation -- but you really wouldn't know that because you're not really here to edit seriously, you just helicoptered in. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:11, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Seriously, BMK? You simply get to declare MOS:DATE void on your articles? Get the fuck over yourself. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 03:59, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

And you're editwarring over it??? Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 04:01, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Well, here's how I look at it, if a comma ain't needed, there's no necessity for a comma. Read the sentence out loud, there's no pause after that date, it flows naturally into "which was met by...". That's not case with a previous date, "On February 25, 2018, Gibson announced..." where a pause is natural. The comma is the pause, so a comma is appropriate there. What's not appropriate is blindly and slavishly following an editing guideline without actually thinking about what you're doing. That's not helpful to anyone. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:07, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

You're not seriously claiming a comma indicates a pause? Where would you even have learned something like that? Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 04:15, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Not a full pause, a tiny caesura, a mere uptake of breath. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:51, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

In other words, you have no clue what a comma is for. Regardless, you have WP:3RRed with your latest revert of Primergrey. The consensus is against you, and your arguments make no sense. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 06:26, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Some day, when you're older and wiser, and less certain that everything you think you know is true, you'll read something somewhere about commas, and you'll realize how wrong you were all those years ago. In the meantime, I'm tired and bored of you and this discussion -- ignorance has that effect on me. Toodles. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:02, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

You know, this is a very weird hill to die on, especially given that how very wrong you are on a basic punctuation issue. For starters, look up the difference between a defining relative clause and a non-defining relative clause, as well as how they're punctuated. --Calton | Talk 07:05, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Don't know if you've got the inside track, but I've got no plans on dying anytime soon. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:08, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Inline disputed tag

• Ronz: You put a disputed tag on this:

• Gibson's political activity has met with criticism. Nine days after far-right advocate Jeremy Joseph Christian allegedly stabbed three men on the Portland TriMet transit system, Gibson hosted a rally on April 2, 2017 which was met by thousands of counter-protesters.

What, exactly, are you disputing?

• Gibson's political activity has met with criticism.
• Nine days after...
• ...far-right advocate Jeremy Joseph Christian...
• ...allegedly stabbed three men on the Portland TriMet transit system...
• ...Gibson hosted a rally on April 2, 2017...
• ...which was met by thousands of counter-protesters.

So, are you disputing that his activity has been criticized, that the rally was held 9 days after the stabbings, that Christian is a far-right advocate, that Christian was the alleged stabber, that Gibson held a rally on April 2, 2017, or that the rally was met by thousands of counter-protestors? If you cannot elucidate precisely what you are disputing, I will be removing your tag. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:38, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Initial questions

• Anyone know which Wilson ref that's supposed to be? --Ronz (talk) 02:35, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

  Apparently the same one used earlier. Thank you. --Ronz (talk) 03:54, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

• I'm confused about the basic timeline. 2017 Portland train attack was on May 26. The rally was April 2... --Ronz (talk) 02:37, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

  Looks like a typo, and one rally was April 29. Another rally was June 4, if it did indeed take place as scheduled.

  Police reports say Christian is seen on surveillance video yelling racial and anti-Muslim slurs on the commuter train ahead of the attack where he killed two people. This refers to April 29. --Ronz (talk) 03:47, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

• This is a BLP1E situation with Christian, correct? --Ronz (talk) 02:39, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

• WP:BLP1E only applies to notability for the subject of articles, not information in articles. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:56, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

• Which ref verifies which was met by thousands of counter-protesters, and which rally does it refer to? --Ronz (talk) 03:52, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

• Have you read the cited articles? Please don't ask others to do the research that you should do. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:56, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Gibson, Christian, and Patriot Prayer rally

Gibson's political activity has met with criticism. On April 2, 2017, nine days after far-right advocate Jeremy Joseph Christian allegedly stabbed three men on the Portland TriMet transit system, Gibson hosted a Patriot Prayer rally which was met by thousands of counter-protesters. Christian was seen at the rally yelling racial slurs. Gibson denounced Christian's actions and said he ejected Christian from the event due to his "bizarre behavior".

References

Above is the last version. None of my concerns have been addressed. I'll go into further detail, then see what help we can get from BLPN: --Ronz (talk) 15:35, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

1. In regard to my initial question about the Wilson ref, I believe the two Wilson refs are being confused. The June 2, 2017 ref that is being used was written before the June 4 rally, which was nine days after the May 26 2017 Portland train attack. The June 3, 2018 ref, written a year after the first, may be what editors wanted to use instead: Wilson, Jason (June 3, 2018). "How a gun-carrying, far-right activist plots a run at the US Senate". the Guardian. Retrieved August 7, 2018. --Ronz (talk) 15:40, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
2. The timeline seems wrong. The three, 2017 events being referred to are the April 29 rally, the May 26 stabbing, and the June 4 rally, correct? Christian was at the April 29 rally, "carrying a bat and spouting hate speech", correct? --Ronz (talk) 15:49, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
3. This is a WP:BLP1E situation with Jeremy Joseph Christian, correct? --Ronz (talk) 15:52, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
4. Which ref verifies "Gibson's political activity has met with criticism", and which rally does it refer to? My guess is that the Wilson 2018 ref and the June 4 rally. --Ronz (talk) 16:03, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

It's not clear how much Christian should be mentioned in this article, nor why. This is an article about Gibson, but is not a soapbox for Gibson's statements and point of view.

The paragraph originally began with Gibson's political activity is frequently met with criticism. If the intent of the paragraph was to document this, it outright fails to do so. --Ronz (talk) 16:23, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

I've requested help at Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Joey_Gibson_(political_activist). --Ronz (talk) 16:57, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Keep the section out of the article. Its written poorly and gets important facts about the timeline of events wrong, additionally, I don't think the event (Portland train stabber showed up at a patriot prayer rally) warrants inclusion in this bio. The reverted material should absolutely not be re-added (without being rewritten AND discussed here first) as its factually incorrect and contentious material in a WP:BLP. SWL36 (talk) 18:42, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

BLPN discussion archive.[13] Morbidthoughts (talk) 18:47, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Merge into Patriot Prayer

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Gibson is not notable except for his founding of and activities with Patriot Prayer. The two articles overlap substantially, and this article only has a few sentences about Gibson personally. Please discuss this potential merger at Talk:Patriot Prayer#Merge. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:49, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Gibson ran for the Senate in the Republican 2018 primary, which offers independent notability. And the attack on the customers at Cider Riot earlier this year does not appear to be so much a "Patriot Prayer" action as Gibson & associates deciding to terrorize a business that supports progressive causes. Watching his activities thru the local media, I believe his relationship to Patriot Prayer has become frayed as that organization has started to disintegrate; he is likely to remain a prominent far right activist long after Patriot Prayer is gone. -- llywrch (talk) 06:35, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Please see WP:NPOL, a failed run in a primary does not confer notability If he survives the passing of Patroot Prayer and does more stuff outside of their purview, his article can easily ne recreated. As of now, thought, there's not reason to have two articles. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:01, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm going to copy these two comments over to Talk:Patriot Prayer#Merge, where the merge discussion is located. New comments should take place there. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:01, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Covid-19

If someone wants to find clearly independent and reliable sources, then we can make some progress to covering Gibson's activities related to covid-19. Given the requirements of BLP, I don't know why this even needs discussion. If someone wants to claim an exception for Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#Twitter, please explain. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 22:23, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

The certified Twitter accounts of public personalities are considered to be reliable sources for the purpose of presenting the views and actions of that person - see WP:TWITTER. Secondary sources are not required in these instances. There is no BLP violation involved in citing the actions of someone on their own Twitter account, and the threat of "ArbEnf" [14] looks like a scare tactic. The material should stay in the article. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:49, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Please focus on content. Best not to make assumptions about others, especially to dismiss factual statements about editing restrictions that apply to this article.

The Twitter ref holds no weight that I can see. It's always helpful to identify the author and explain why that author's opinion if worth our attention. I'm getting a lot of lag reading the Twitter feed, and don't want to waste my time doing so yet again. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 23:07, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

I'm not finding many possible sources.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/17/far-right-coronavirus-protests-restrictions connects him to the protests, but it's not enough in my opinion. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 23:11, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/19/rightwing-protest-seattle-march-against-alleged-leftwing-violence makes the connection again, but the real connection is to Patriot Prayer. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 23:13, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

There's local coverage, but nothing at a glance that looks useful. Maybe someone else can find something better. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 23:16, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm going to agree his article should be focusing on what the news report[15] rather than editors picking and choosing his tweets to report on. Morbidthoughts (talk) 22:30, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

New ref

In April 2020, Gibson attracted controversy for posting a video protesting against the Covid-19 lockdowns, in which a child holds up a sign saying "Arbeit macht frei" ("Work sets you free"), the words used over the gates of Auschwitz and other Nazi concentration camps. After receiving criticism, he deleted the video from his website and Facebook page.

The new source is worse than the two I already identified, unless I'm missing something. What is it supposedly verifying?

Please address the concerns about the Twitter ref as well: How does it meet usage criteria? --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 16:18, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

The Twitter post is redirecting for me. Please provide a proper link for it, its author, and a quote identifying whatever it's supposedly verifying. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 16:29, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and started discussion at BLPN: Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Joey_Gibson_COVID-19_video --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 17:00, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

I think it safe to say that there's no consensus for inclusion of the material so far. Restoring it to the aricle is edit-warring without consensus in violation of BLP. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 22:27, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

BLP discussion regarding the video is now archived.[16] Morbidthoughts (talk) 18:45, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 August 2020

Please impose Use mdy dates in top of the article because per MOS:DATEFORMAT, any person that originated in the United States, with execption of US Military use mdy date format. 180.254.161.72 (talk) 19:23, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

 Done. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 02:46, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

False characterisation - contrary to source given/

The article referenced to characterise the group Patriot Prayer as "Far Right" is https://www.columbian.com/news/2017/jul/02/joey-gibson-aims-to-liberate-conservatives-via-his-patriot-prayer-group/

Nowhere in this article is the claim made that the group is "Far Right".

SHORT EXTRACT FROM THE ARTICLE - but please read it in full and explain to me how it says his organisation is "far right". "Gibson said he is still evolving as an activist and organizer. On Facebook videos and YouTube, he preaches “Hatred is a disease.” He counts the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. among his political heroes. He once invited a transgender person to speak at one of his rallies because he said it’s time all people were accepted ..... etc (read it in full here: https://www.columbian.com/news/2017/jul/02/joey-gibson-aims-to-liberate-conservatives-via-his-patriot-prayer-group

Please remove the HARMFUL content.

"In cases where the appropriateness of material regarding a living person is questioned, the rule of thumb should be "do no harm." DO NO HARM. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rian Geldenhuys (talk • contribs) 19:53, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

According to the main Wikipedia article for Patriot Prayer, it is "a far-right group" per the following references:

• "Far-right Patriot Prayer clashes with anti-fascists in Portland". Al Jazeera. Retrieved July 2, 2018.
• Mathias, Christopher (August 3, 2018) "Portland's Patriot Prayer Rally Could Be Most Violent Since Charlottesville, Activists Say" Huffington Post
• Staff (August 3, 2018) "Portland police warn protesters to leave guns at home ahead of planned far-right, antifa demonstrations" CBS News
• Staff "What you need to know about the upcoming far-right rallies in the Pacific Northwest" Southern Poverty Law Center
• Jason, A. W. (August 5, 2018) "Portland far-right rally: police charge counterprotesters with batons drawn" The Guardian
• Link, Taylor (August 4, 2018) "Far-right groups and antifascists collide in Portland" Salon
• Staff (August 5, 2018) "Portland police arrest four in far-right rally and counter-protest" BBC News
• Har, Janie (August 26, 2017). "Right-wing groups cancel San Francisco Bay Area rallies". AP News.

You may want to move to that article's Talk Page and start a discussion there if you think the "far right" description is not adequately established by the sources. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 20:06, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your helpful advice AzureCitizen. I shall carefully read every one of those articles and search for the words "far right". My point remains - just like every other HUMAN being - what a person Self Identifies as - should be respected.Rian Geldenhuys (talk) 05:16, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

• NOTE: The OP has apparently stalked me off line and has sent a Facebook friend request to me after I reverted them.--Jorm (talk) 20:33, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

  Their profile, by the way, is obviously a spammer or robot. --Jorm (talk) 20:34, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

• NOTE: I am a 56 Year old South African Individual using my REAL NAME - Rian Geldenhuys. I happen to take an interest in why people murder others in the street and I saw a video of this man mourning his friends death in Portland. I am wondering what caused the murder and mayhem. Could it be because of demonisation and symbolisation? Rian Geldenhuys (talk) 05:06, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

• • @Rian Geldenhuys: we don't use talk pages to discuss the subjects of an article, however interesting your question might be. We also know that people and organisations often don't tell the truth about themselves, preferring to project an attractive image, and in fact they all too often flat-out lie. Doug Weller talk 17:38, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

I suggest ANI or ArbEnf on Rian Geldenhuys' repeated NOTHERE behavior, if he isn't blocked or banned before you get to it. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 18:47, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Rian Geldenhuys (RG) asked about this at the "Teahouse". I took a look. Here, after a bit of markup-stripping, is how the article currently starts: "Joseph Owan Gibson (born November 8, 1983)[1] is an American right-wing activist[2] and the founder of the far-right group Patriot Prayer, which has organized protests in Portland, Oregon, and other cities.[3]" I read this as saying "Source [3] says that he's the founder of the far-right group Patriot Prayer, which has organized protests in Portland, Oregon, and other cities." This in turn entails that source [3] says that Patriot Prayer is far-right (not necessarily this precise wording, but if not then something equivalent to "far-right"). I believe that RG is pointing out that whatever else source [3] says, it doesn't say this. Source [3] is an article from The Columbian. I've read it (perhaps imperfectly). Like many such articles, it quotes various people; unsurprisingly, these have different opinions of Patriot Prayer (PP). One person quoted is "Washington State Democratic Party Communications Director Alex Bond", who doesn't use the term PP but regards "Gibson and his people" as extremists who encourage violence. Even this is not "far right", and it's the closest to it that I can find. Certainly there's no "far right" in the editorial voice. Therefore I think RG has a point. If you'd like to block or ban him, then block or ban me too. (Good luck with that!) Far less melodramatically, here's a suggestion. Make it: "Joseph Owan Gibson (born November 8, 1983)[1] is an American right-wing activist[2] and the founder of the far-right[X] group Patriot Prayer, which has organized protests in Portland, Oregon, and other cities.[3]" Within which, [X] is a source that actually says PP is "far right". Better, simply skip "far-right" in this particular sentence: however accurate it is (and I think it is accurate), it's hardly necessary here: I mean, just a very few words earlier, the reader has been told that Gibson is a "right-wing activist". -- Hoary (talk) 07:49, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

Presence of Proud Boys

@Hipal:, I find it undue to put Proud Boys in this article as being present unless better sources can show better connection than merely appearing on their own free will and being present. As another example, it might be ok to put (some C list celebrity barely notable enough to have a Wikipedia page) is known for owning dozens of pairs of Nikes, but to put THAT into Nike article is highly undue without strong sources showing Nike to have strogner ties to them. Right now, the sources you're using are a mere college paper and the blog section of Seattle alternative weekly The Stranger. Those don't demonstrate strong connection. Perhaps putting it into Proud Boys page about their own actions is better suited than imposing about their actions into other articles, such as this.Graywalls (talk) 17:45, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

What's wrong with the two references? --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 18:11, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Does this help any? https://www.vox.com/2020/9/8/21417403/patriot-prayer-explained-portland --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 18:14, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

The VOX source would give a basis to include the group's relationship in Patriot Prayer, but not here. Graywalls (talk) 18:29, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

And the two refs? --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 18:36, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

would be fine to just omit it. Graywalls (talk) 18:59, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Can you please clarify on exactly what is wrong with the two refs which verified the information? --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 19:35, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

@Hipal:, I'm not certain if the student newspaper would be considered a good WP:RS on matters like this. The Stranger's SLOG is likely a WP:NEWSBLOG, which is in "use with caution". Given that we have Vox source, adding these weak sources may not be beneficial. Graywalls (talk) 22:44, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Could you take a closer look at Graham, Natalie; Hsieh, Steven. "Police Made Five Arrests and Deployed Pepper Spray at the UW Patriot Prayer Rally". SLOG. The Stranger. Retrieved 27 February 2018.. The authors are on staff. It's not a blog entry. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 23:21, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

I believe that relationship w/ Proud Boys should be mentioned; see for example: Portland killing renews focus on tactics of far-right group Patriot Prayer, WaPo:

• Some of Gibson’s initial supporters had ties to white-supremacist groups, and in 2017 he became more closely aligned with the Proud Boys, a far-right group that has engaged in white-nationalist and anti-Muslim rhetoric. In an interview Tuesday, Gibson said he is no is longer affiliated with the Proud Boys, after he and other leaders of the group went their separate ways.

--K.e.coffman (talk) 00:27, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

I've remove the weaker ref, kept The Stranger, and added the Washington Post. The Post suggests a much stronger relationship. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 02:08, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Additional coverage

• July 2, 2017 https://www.columbian.com/news/2017/jul/02/joey-gibson-aims-to-liberate-conservatives-via-his-patriot-prayer-group/

Extensive info in this article (an existing source) for potential inclusion in early life and education section. Cedar777 (talk) 21:19, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

• November 11, 2020 https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2020/11/12/far-right-extremists-heading-washington-amid-talk-trump-coup

in a video, Gibson urged his followers to attend Cedar777 (talk) 21:24, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

• Ritter, Katherine. "Joseph E. Lowndes, Daniel Martinez HoSang: Producers, Parasites, Patriots: Race and the New Right-Wing Politics of Precarity." Journal of African American Studies, vol. 24, no. 2, June 2020, pp. 302+. Gale General OneFile, link.gale.com/apps/doc/A628220563/ITOF?u=spl_main&sid=bookmark-ITOF&xid=2a20f889. Accessed 12 Sept. 2021. Cedar777 (talk) 18:06, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

BLPN discussion

Archived BLPN discussion about the lead sentence.[17] Morbidthoughts (talk) 00:53, 7 September 2023 (UTC)