Talk:Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996–2001)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Borders

I assume the borders of the Emirate are different than the borders of present-day Afghanistan. – Quadell ^{(talk) (bounties)} 14:32, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Why would they be any different? --Soman 18:26, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

as far as I can tell the borders are the same, I've removed the request.Kmusser 01:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Merger

This article provided no useful information, and the term iself was not notable. The "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan" was better known as the "Taliban". All of the info here should be merged into Taliban.Bless sins 22:42, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

This is a bad idea because the Islamic State of Afghanistan is over, but the Taliban still exists.--Patchouli 19:00, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Right, but the "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan" was a part of Taliban history. The Taliban started as an anti-Soviet gorup, moved to power, and then after the collapse of thier gov. have started an insurgency.Bless sins 18:33, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Red area on the map

The red area on the map (Northern Alliance held territory) is woefully inaccurate. The Panjshir valley was never taken by the Taliban, in fact, Northern Alliance front lines were several km south of the valley's opening immediately north of Bagram Air Base. Really the map should have a peninsula shaped area of red extending from the area of Badakhshan province, the entire length of the Panjshir valley, to immediately north of Kabul (about 30km). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.104.224.136 (talk) 01:31, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Chechen Republic of Ichkeria recognition

I'm going to post this on the talk pages for all three articles in question to try and get some consensus.

• From the Taliban article: despite having diplomatic recognition from only three countries: the United Arab Emirates, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia, as well as the unrecognized government of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria.
• From the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan article: Only Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates ever recognized the Taliban government.
• From the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria article: There are no countries that officially recognize Chechen independence... it was recognized by the Taliban, but the ChRI never recognised the Taliban in turn

So did they recognise the Taliban or not? --Horses In The Sky 20:15, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Yandarbiyev did (in 1999), as a former president. --HanzoHattori 23:37, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

That Yandarbiev did it in 1999 is worthless- he wasn't president anymore. Maskhadov was, and Maskhadov refused to recognize the Taliban, calling them illegitimate. --Yalens (talk) 14:59, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

It does not read "Dowlat-e Eslami-ye Afghanestan"

The article falsely transliterates "د افغانستان اسلامي امارات" as "Dowlat-e Eslami-ye Afghanestan" (Islamic State of Afghanistan); that is not what the text says, and it doesn't translate to "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan". The text is correctly transliterated as "Da Afghanistan Islami Amarat", and it should be corrected to reflect this. 96.26.213.146 (talk) 09:49, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

EMIRATE?

I don't think we need an article for this term. I reccommend closing this and opening a small subsection under "Afghanistan" simply mentioning the usage of the term by the Taliban militants. Mehrshad123 06:06, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

This is a former incarnation of the state and needs its own article covering the period. User:Dimadick this is tight to call them islamic emirate of afghaninstan because they trully govern the hearts of afghans indeed.and furthermore, they rule the afghanistan even now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 111.88.6.99 (talk) 18:55, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Merge discussion

I propose that this article be merged with the Taliban article, since it contains more indepth detail about the Taliban's rule over Afghanistan. TRAJAN 117 (talk) 11:14, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

• No. One article deals with the state, the other article deals with the group running it. Merging them would be like merging Federal government of the United States with United States. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 01:46, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
• NoIEA is the country while taliban is the government party(now group) behind it
• No. This article is about the state while the Taliban is about the political group. Droodkin (talk) 12:51, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. Same as above, this would be like merging Nazi Party with Nazi Germany or Bolshevik with Soviet Russia. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 15:29, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose - Per Jean-Jacques. This article is about the state that existed over a specific time period, while the Taliban can operate independently of the state and at different times. JamesA ^>talk 13:52, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose - This article is about a historical polity; it is common practice to have separate articles on historical polities. --Omnipaedista (talk) 14:41, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

the islamic emirate is the best of all in the history of afghanistan. Waheedullah Ahmadee — Preceding unsigned comment added by 111.88.6.99 (talk) 19:10, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

"Totalitarian"

I kind of doubt it qualifies as a "totalitarian". It was a restrictive theocratic dictatorship. But to call it "totalitarian" would mean that any country before the recent secular trend would be "totalitarian" as well, especially Geneva under Calvin, for instance. --YOMAL SIDOROFF-BIARMSKII (talk) 10:23, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Bacha bazi

There are already mentions about Taliban cracking down on the opium industry. According to Wiki's own article, this was another questionable practice that they tried to end. 195.187.108.4 (talk) 11:13, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

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is this propaganda?

this article was written in 2017 using language that seeks to re-write history from what i can see, using words such as "islamic state" to describe a group who called themselves "mujaheddin" - a group who shot at the real islamic state when they came to afghanistan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.133.249.185 (talk) 20:21, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Anthem

See also: Talk:National_anthem_of_Afghanistan § Taliban_regime, § National anthem, § who changed the anthem portion?, and § The Anthem Question

I am not sure where this information comes from, but Russian Wikipedia states that the anthem of IEA was a nasheed called "Da də batorano kor". The idea that national anthems would be banned because of the Islamist ban on music is a bit strange to me, because anthems, like any hymns, can be sung without music. Are there any people with more knowledge on the matter? TheImperios (talk) 12:01, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Most Likely it acted as a Unofficial Anthem as the Song itself seems to be a Nasheed

--140.190.51.233 (talk) 15:28, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

Flag and coat of arms

According to its official websites, Taliban/Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (IEA) uses slightly different flag and coat of arms. - صلاح الأوكراني (talk) 13:49, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Flag

• From this article:

• According to official websites of IEA (1,2):

Coat of arms

• From this article:

• According to official websites of IEA: 1, 2

Totalitarian revisited

A few years ago a user questioned whether or not this state was totalitarian, as currently presented in the introduction. I think we need to revisit this. The sources aren't particularly strong. Afghanistan is a highly tribal, third world society; I doubt the Taliban ever had the scientific and technological abilities to run a totalitarian state as say the Third Reich in Germany did, or various Marxists governments such as the Soviet Union under Stalin. "Totalitarian" isn't just a stand-in for "mean". Ishbiliyya (talk) 22:32, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

But it does mean "a system of government that seeks total control of its citizens", which is fairly accurate. The Taliban dictated who could and could not participate in the basic trappings of human society, including being literate, receiving an education, participating in political discussions, choosing a vocation, singing and playing music, etc. The penalty for violating these dictates was harsh and often lethal, demonstrating that these rules were not merely social guidelines, but demands for compliance. 67.8.203.16 (talk) 21:56, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "auto1":

• From Gülen movement: "Pakistanis laud 'landmark' verdict on FETO terror group". aa.com.tr.
• From Sunni Islam: Al-Ṭaḥāwī, Al-ʿAqīdah aṭ-Ṭaḥāwiyya LXVII
• From Al-Shabaab (militant group): "Saudi Journalist Adnan Muhammad: Qatar Supports Somali Al-Shabab Terrorist Group; It Is Committed to Assisting Al-Qaeda and Its Branches". MEMRI.
• From Tarinkot: "The State of Afghan Cities Report 2015". Retrieved 20 October 2015.
• From Durand Line: Michael Brecher (25 July 2017). A Century of Crisis and Conflict in the International System: Theory and Evidence: Intellectual Odyssey III. Springer. ISBN 9783319571560. Retrieved 25 July 2017.
• From List of totalitarian regimes: Gall, Carlotta (30 July 2015). "Mullah Muhammad Omar, Enigmatic Leader of Afghan Taliban, Is Dead" – via NYTimes.com.
• From Anti-imperialism: Richard Koebner and Helmut Schmidt, Imperialism: The Story and Significance of a Political Word, 1840-1960 (2010)
• From Israel–Pakistan relations: "India Thwarts Israeli Destruction of Pakistan's "Islamic Bomb"". Institute of National Strategic Studies. May 1995. Retrieved July 4, 2012.
• From Hamas: Harry Raymond Hueston, Paul G. Pierpaoli Jr., Sherifa Zahar, 'Hamas' in Priscilla Roberts (ed.) Arab-Israeli Conflict: The Essential Reference Guide, ABC-CLIO, 2014 p. 67
• From Xinjiang: "Former inmates of China's Muslim 'reeducation' camps tell of brainwashing, torture". The Washington Post. 16 May 2018. Archived from the original on 21 September 2018. Retrieved 4 August 2018.
• From Jalalabad: "The State of Afghan Cities report 2015". Archived from the original on 2015-10-31. Retrieved 2015-10-21.
• From Russia: "Russia", The World Factbook, 7 February 2020
• From Kandahar: "The State of Afghan Cities report 2015". Archived from the original on 31 October 2015. Retrieved 22 October 2015.
• From Outline of Islam: Quran 26:178
• From Afghanistan–Russia relations: Editors, History com. "USSR and Afghanistan sign "friendship treaty"". HISTORY. Retrieved 27 April 2019. {{cite web}}: |last= has generic name (help)
• From Iran–United States relations: Roe, Sam (28 January 2007). "An atomic threat made in America". Chicago Tribune. Retrieved 1 July 2009.
• From Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex: Vidale, Massimo, (2017). Treasures from the Oxus, p. 9, Table 1.
• From Turkish Hezbollah: *German Jihad: On the Internationalisation of Islamist Terrorism by Guido Steinberg. Columbia University Press, 2013
• From Ghazni: The State of Afghan Cities Report 2015. Archived from the original on 31 October 2015. Retrieved 20 October 2015.
• From Afghanistan: "Power to the People: How to extend Afghans' access to electricity". Afghanistan Analysts Network - English. 3 February 2015.
• From Arab Winter: "Displacement in the Middle East and North Africa – between the Arab Winter and the Arab Spring" (PDF), International Affairs, LB, August 28, 2013, archived from the original (PDF) on October 18, 2014, retrieved October 18, 2014
• From Taliban insurgency: "Taliban in troubled waters as splinter groups target leaders in Quetta". CNBC TV. Retrieved 20 September 2019.
• From Hezbollah: "Jewish Leaders Applaud Hezbollah Terror Designation by France". Algemeiner Journal. 4 April 2013. Retrieved 4 September 2013.
• From Saudi Arabia: "The Arab Empire | Mohammed | Umayyad Empire History". www.historybits.com.
• From Pashtuns: B. Minahan, James (2012). Ethnic Groups of South Asia and the Pacific: An Encyclopedia: An Encyclopedia. ABC-CLIO. ISBN 9781598846607. The Pashtuns .. There is small Christian minority, mostly in Pakistan .
• From Mohammed Omar: "Where Will the New Taliban Leader Lead His People?". Moscow Carnegie Center. 11 August 2015. Retrieved 13 February 2016.
• From Gardez: "The State of Afghan Cities report 2015". Archived from the original on 2015-10-31. Retrieved 2015-10-22.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 09:21, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• IEA.jpg.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:53, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Turkmenistan recognition of IEA

This is my first edit to Wikipedia so, I apologize if I make any mistake. The issue I have is with Turkmenistan being said to recognize the government of IAE. Everywhere I look online mentions ONLY Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and the UAE as having formally recognized the government of the IAE. In footnote 34, the first citation for the claim that Turkmenistan recognized the IAE, the closest I could find to that statement was "The government worked closely with the Taliban regime in Afghanistan until September 11, 2001, and until that time had a growing cross-border trade with the regime in Afghanistan." This is far from official recognition of the government. And as for citation 35, that website contains no information regarding IAE or anything for that matter. There is the headline "Turkmenistan Takes a Chance on the Taliban," but there is no corresponding text. So, unless someone can provide better sources for this claim, I recommend the mention of Turkmenistan recognizing the legitimacy of the IAE to be removed. CuriousLayman (talk) 22:19, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

"Totalitarianism" part 3

Let's look at the two sources currently cited. The Michael Whine source is a comparison of Islamism and totalitarianism "noting similarities and differences." It mentions "the Taliban takeover of Afghanistan" in passing as a "current strategic-religious concern" but does not identify it as totalitarian or otherwise discuss the IEA at length. The Arnett source is an article primarily about Turkish politics that uses the phrase "totalitarian Taliban" in passing. This is some rather weak sourcing on which to base a categorical claim. 73.71.251.64 (talk) 03:33, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Neutrality

I hate to advocate in favor of the Talibhan, but it seems to me the article is pretty biased. For exmaple, "murder" is a pretty loaded term which implies it is a very wrong act, as opposed to a more neutral word like "kill". I think the article should be more factual in nature, and that a lot of it needs to be rewritten because of this. Knight of Truth (talk) 08:33, 6 September 2011 (UTC) I would argue that utilising the word murder does not break the principle of neutrality as murder merely refers to killing in a premeditated fashion that violates the law. The Taliban were planning his death and entered the compound in order to kill him and in addition the killing as unlawful due to violating international law. The word murder is apt due to being more or less what was perpetrated. Project QWERTY (talk) 12:59, 11 September 2011 (UTC) waheedulla ahmadee — Preceding unsigned comment added by 111.88.6.99 (talk) 19:07, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

I second this, the page has always had a rather sharp bias for obvious reasons, but a neutral tone is more appropriate. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 11:17, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Merge with Afghanistan

The Islamic Emirate did not cease to exist on December 17th as the article states. This was a 20 year civil war, and while they temporarily lost control of the capital, they won the civil war and reclaimed the capital. It’s the same entity, not two.

--The Gentle Sleep (talk) 07:16, 16 August 2021 (UTC) I agree with the above

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Emblem of Taliban.svg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:23, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 August 2021

TheHistoryGuide (talk) 15:29, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. BSMRD (talk) 16:24, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 August 2021

capitalize the A in August 17th! 100.34.189.153 (talk) 17:49, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

 Done Benica11 (talk) 18:20, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 August 2021 (2)

Blank the page. 38.69.53.242 (talk) 20:06, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done. No reason to do so. Muhibm0307 (talk) 23:40, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 August 2021 (3)

Our flag is always Black,red.green dont let this taliban-isis take our country and change our flag Think if somebody did that too your country Pless 83.137.6.173 (talk) 22:52, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:01, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Rename page to “Afghanistan”, merge with Taliban, and rename current Afghanistan article to “Islamic Republic of Afghanistan”

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Discussion has died down and the participants appear to be split on this. (non-admin closure) Muhibm0307 (talk) 23:11, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

---

• Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan → Afghanistan
• Afghanistan → Islamic Republic of Afghanistan
• Taliban → Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan

This government, which never truly ended and continued with the Taliban, is about to retake power. Thereby, the Islamic Emirate would be the one with the “Afghanistan” page(and it’s the same entity, they just lost power in the capital for quite a while), while the Islamic Republic would be the past tense government that will probably exist in exile, and should be titled as such.

Obviously a lot of info on the current Afghanistan page would be lifted over, but still.

A succession of some sort is clearly underway, although it is not complete and we don't know what form it will take. 73.71.251.64 (talk) 08:44, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I mostly agree but the Taliban article should remain separate as it’s the organization. (talk) 13:19, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree if that occurs. Wait for reliable sources.Manabimasu (talk) 15:45, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I also agree with this. The existing "afghanistan" page should just be renamed "Islamic Republic of Afghanistan" then we should edit the infobox to say "2004-2021". But I am unsure when we should do this. Do we wait for the taliban to "officially declare victory"? Bwmdjeff (talk) 16:36, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Also, this page should be renamed to "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996-2001)"

I agree, the Islamic Republicans have fallen, I don't think they will even form a government in exile. They should rename this article Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996-2001), turn this article on Afghanistan into an article on the current Islamic Emirate and create a new article on the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan (2004-2021), which already exists.--Dr. Ivan Kučera (talk) 07:11, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Taliban officials will soon be declaring the existence of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan from the presidential palace. Since this is the end of the republic, this article should be renamed to have a date range, all links to it should be redirected, and Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan should be redirected to Afghanistan within a short while. Master of Time (talk) 16:43, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:31C8:9F3C:4939:FFA3 (talk) 18:25, 15 August 2021 (UTC) The years thing implies their separate entities, but they aren’t. It’s the same government as this one retaking power. Hmm. Perhaps some sort of compromise, where the new Afghanistan page says the years operating are “1996-2001, 2021-present” and has a short summary of this page with a link redirecting to the main article. So we split it into two articles, but the end of this article, start of the main one, AND the infobox with the years all show them as the same entity So we have two articles, one for this era and one for the new stuff, but both make it clear it’s the same entity split for convenience and the infobox treats it as such showing both sets of years even on the new page.

we can't do anything until they declare their new government which they have said will happen from the presidential palace. If they are declaring a new Islamic Emirate then this page should remain as is and a new page created. It's not for us to write what we think is true, we just follow the reliable sources. ThinkingTwice ^{contribs | talk} 19:47, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:31C8:9F3C:4939:FFA3 (talk) 01:24, 16 August 2021 (UTC) It’s not a ‘new’ Emirate though. The Emirate that ruled in 2001 never ceased to exist, it simply lost ground in a civil war, slowly got the ground back, and eventually won the civil war. Zoom out and ignore all the mission accomplished BS, that’s what happened. Timescale makes it always, but it’s the truth.

The 2004 - 2021 period was a civil war, but The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan continued to fly their flag within their zone of influence and continued enforcing their laws. The IEA never stopped being a state, their territory simply shrank for a period of time. This is all the same emirate, they just control a large amount of territory again. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 07:14, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

We should create a new page for the Taliban government because the US isnt going in there anytime soon to bring back the Republic. ChocFrosted (talk) 04:38, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Separate 1996-2001 and present-day Taliban rule into different articles

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was no consensus. Muhibm0307 (talk) 09:39, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

---

Wouldn't it make more sense to split the two regimes into separate eras/pages instead of trying to connect them together, despite having a 20-year gap in-between their rule? Justrz (talk) 23:18, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Agree Yes, Afghanistan is ruled by a new government and the article shall reflect that.

Completely Disagree - Realistically, its the exact same entity now as it was 20 years prior, splitting would just cause confusion and spread of information that is unnecessary --Doobie777 (talk) 23:42, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Support - Whilst they may be the same entity, it's safe to assume that many things will (and already have) occurred in this latest incarnation. The fact that many nation states are on the cusp of recognising the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan as the official Government of the country solidifies the case for a new argument - the 1997-2001 incarnation was an unrecognised proto-state, whereas this one will most definitely seek out and receive international recognition. Donnellan0007 (talk) 14:23, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Oppose - It is the same entity and separating into different articles would cause more confusion that it would alleviate. Brianahier (talk) 14:22, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree on this, I can't recall if this happened before but I think it'd just make the article much cleaner and easier to read and edit Spiritual Sausage (talk) 23:43, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Agree wholeheartedly HyperEagle (talk) 10:50, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I would agree, once there's a critical mass about the "new" Taliban rule. They haven't yet even officially announced it, so let's not jump the gun. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 23:43, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Support - agreed. As an example, the French Fourth Republic was pretty much a recreation of the French Third Republic after a 6 year interim, but we have separate articles for a reason. Today's Taliban government will not be the same as the one that was deposed in 1996. Ganesha811 (talk) 23:55, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

That is not really a good comparison. Vichy France is the direct continuation of the government of the Third Republic, which is why the Fourth Republic has a separate article, as it is a completely separate entity from the Third Republic. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 01:37, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Support -47.33.186.77 (talk) 00:13, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Oppose - We just came to an agreement on this on the main page. It’s the same entity. The Islamic Emirate never ceased to exist, they’ve existed continuously since 1996. They lost control of the capital temporarily during a civil war, but eventually regained it and won said civil war. Treating them as separate entities is dishonest and fudges the truth of the situation. The Islamic Emirate ruled the country, got into a civil war, retreated to the countryside, slowly regained ground, and eventually won the civil war. Zoomed out with full hindsight of how things turned out, that’s what happened. They never lost, and the Republic never won. It was a 20 year civil war, the government that was in charge at the start eventually won despite setbacks.

• Support - Thought both Taliban entities, they're different historic periods of Afghan governance. Combining the two would confuse readers. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Thanks ♥) 01:23, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Comment - This can be remedied the way the article currently is now with headings. Irrelevant. Donenne (talk) 10:12, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

The Taliban article could be seen as the one covering the continuous Islamic Emirate claim. Splitting off a 1996-2001 article would provide specific detail to that significant historical era. With the article being as long as it is, it'll only grow as the Second Islamic Emirate continues. That's why, even with having subheaders, yet another split discussion will happen because of the article's currently broad scope. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Thanks ♥) 13:41, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Oppose - The modern Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan is a direct continuation of the one that existed from 1996 to 2001. It is not comparable to situations like the Baltic states claiming to be successors of their pre-invasion counterparts, as they are actually the direct successors of their soviet counterparts. Nor is it comparable to the French Fourth Republic and the French Third Republic, as the direct successor to the Third Republic is Vichy France, which was a direct continuation of the Third Republic. The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, on the other hand, has been in constant existence from 1996, despite not controlling any land for a period after 2001, it is the same entity as the 1996-2001 iteration. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 01:32, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support - Separate states decades apart. It makes almost no sense to keep them together. 2601:194:827F:2F0:D964:BC85:72C5:F450 (talk) 01:35, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Support - https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/world/taliban-to-declare-islamic-emirate-of-afghanistan-official-297971

why would they need to declare something that already exist (and has existed for 25 years, supposedly)? BlackYaroslav (talk) 03:19, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:31C8:9F3C:4939:FFA3 (talk) 01:27, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Also, THERE IS NO 20 YEAR GAP. They never stopped existed, they just stopped ruling the cities for a while. The “Taliban” is the Emirate, the same entity. We need to think of this as a long, 20 year long civil war. The Emirate won. It’s the same Emirate that ruled in 1996-2001, the same Emirate that fought in the civil war from 2002-2021 and slowly regained ground(the one the media called the Taliban) and it’s the same Emirate that won that civil war.

• Oppose - There's continuity of existence, the emirate never stopped existing officially when it became an insurgency, so a split would be arbitrary. Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 01:29, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support - It's easier to read
• Support - Despite it being a direct continuation, these two states were nonetheless non-continuous and separated by history.180app (talk) 01:39, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Oppose - The Islamic Emirate is the Taliban, the Taliban is the Islamic Emirate. Official name versus unofficial nickname. There is no break in continuity. The entity in question has existed continuously since 1996 and has held land in some degree since.

We must remember this. The only reason we treated the Taliban and Islamic Emirate as separate in the first place is because we assumed the Republic had won, which was incorrect. The Emirate absolutely existed, continuously, since 1996. It’s just during the civil war period we called them by their unofficial nickname, the Taliban, and not their official name, the Islamic Emirate. But it’s always been the same entity. The Islamic Emirate got into a civil war, suffered losses, retook ground, and eventually won the civil war. We changed what we called them due to geopolitics and things that were wrong in hindsight, but make no mistake, there is no break in continuity. Break the artificial distinction between the Emirate and Taliban, and it becomes clear they never went anywhere. 2604:3d09:1f80:ca00:31c8:9f3c:4939:ffa3 (talk) 01:45, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Support - While the entity has continued to exist, the new page should simply be titled the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan with the former incarnation being named by the years it controlled in parenthesis, whilst adding a "not to be confused with" disclaimer as well as referencing in the infobox the initiall fall of kabul in 2001, and subsequent collapse of the Islamic republic/re-establishment. Wikipedia should serve to reflect the de facto situation as it existed, rather than the de jure existence of Islamic Emirate forces throughout the civil war.2601:402:4280:15e0:e178:c19c:2293:132f (talk) 01:52, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose This is the same government that got pushed out of Kabul in 2001, back where it started. Though leadership has shifted, its the same organization that has been fighting the same fight for over 20 years. BSMRD (talk) 01:50, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose - Splitting would hide the insurgency of the underground emirate. Not separated by history if the government was in hiding. May I ask why it would be harder? How much info is 5 years of rule? I think appropriate headers will not confuse readers and Infobox already explains the dates. Look at the Islamic state of Afghanistan. It was in exile but we don’t have a separate article for when it came back to power.Manabimasu (talk) 01:51, 16 August 2021 (UTC)Manabimasu (talk) 17:10, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Oppose Democratic Republic of Timor-Leste existed only for a few days in the 70s, after that East Timor was an Indonesian province, and in 2002 it became an independent country again (under the name of Democratic Republic of Timor-Leste), and it is not splitted.. Salvabl (talk) 01:52, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Exactly... because the Timor-Leste of the 70s lasted a few weeks, while the Islamic Emirate of the 90s lasted five years. Very significant difference. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Thanks ♥) 13:41, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Support - As others have stated - although being a continuation of the same government - these are two separate states that have come to power in two distinct periods. RoadSmasher420 (talk) 02:07, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Support- The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan while sharing the same name with the state that existed from 1996 to 2001 is not a direct continuation of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan established in 1996. MogasTheThird (talk) 02:41, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

It is a direct continuation of the 1996 entity. The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan and the Taliban refer to the same thing. One is an official name, one a nickname. It never went away, it was there for the whole civil war 2604:3d09:1f80:ca00:95ba:e6c3:b9b3:5407 (talk) 02:48, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support Even the Taliban is yet to announce an official declaration of the Emirate, clearly signifying the break in its existence. And articles about the insurgency do exist, the Republic was internationally recognised no need to treat the intergenum as completely irrelevant. Gotitbro (talk) 02:49, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

SUpport While the Taliban is the same group that controlled the original Emirate, the state was partially recognized as the legitimate government of Afghanistan, the same countries that recognize it would later support the post-2001 government. Besides, it's better for the sake of readibility. For example Republic of China redirects to Taiwan and Republic of China (1912–1949) is a separate different page. LordLoko (talk) 02:58, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support The Taliban is now the Akhundzada Taliban not the Omar Taliban. SpinnerLaserzthe2nd (talk) 03:00, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support The 1996-2001 government was, by the meaning of "1996 to 2001", discontinued in 2001. Another government was put into place after that. Although the previous Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan and the current Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan have the exact same, well, really everything, they were two separate governments. I would certainly be very confused if this was the first time I read this article. Matthewberns (talk) 03:18, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose Our honourable friend Salvabl brought up a great point about how the Wikipedia handled the Timor-Leste situation and their reasoning convinced me. The way we handle these situations should be consistent. The government of Timor-Leste before and after Indonesian occupation were in fact two separate governments and the Timor-Leste article was not split. But that's just my opinion. :-) Historicamatic (talk) 03:46, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support Both represent different eras of Afghan rule, which deserves them 2 separate articles. Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 04:15, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan has continued to refer to itself by that name in official communications and has carried itself as a government in exile. Although the international community didn't recognize their authority, they have continued to enforce their laws upon the people and act as an official government regardless. The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan never stopped existing, there was simply a parallel government fighting with them for territory.

I would add that The United States could be similarly split into two pages based on the fundamental changed to the nature of state vs federal power during and after The American Civil War. The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan has continued to use the same name officially, enforce their laws, and fly their flag within their controlled territory between 2004 and 2021, and as such have remained a continuous state regardless of how others refer to them. A continuous state is fundamentally a singular entity, Islamic_State_of_Afghanistan is also a single page regardless of the IEA holding dominant power in the middle of the ISA's dominance. Keeping the article together is the correct answer for these reasons and the reasons stated in the large unsigned post above. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 19:59, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support Most of the article is already split between 1996-2001 and 2021-present, though nested across separate sections. As the "present" sections are expanded in the future, it is likely to lead to issues with readability. Additionally, I believe the contents to be disparate enough the justify separate pages. Orcaguy | Write me | Mon œuvre 04:26, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose per @The Gentle Sleep: Ytpks896 (talk) 04:54, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support It's two different periods of Afghan history, although it's the same organisation as the previous one, the first Emirate was 20 yrs ago now. The 2nd Emirate has also a completely different history in terms of it's foundation (20yr war etc). I think this article should be in past-tense to talk about the pre-war government and the new article to mention whatever it is this new Emirate of Afghanistan does. I think there should be an article in same way there are different articles on the various French Republics etc.ThePaganUK (talk) 05:01, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Support It should be two different articles . The period difference as well as different circumstances . Romdwolf (talk) 05:43, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Comment In addition to my previous opposition, I would add that the real time difference between the first period of the Emirate administering territory and the second period is not as big as some are saying. The first period where the Taliban would have recaptured territory is probably around 2002, and they would have a governing structure to administer said territory, giving the Islamic Emirate a territorial existence from 1996 to 2001 and from 2002 to the present day. This fits in with the counterpart of the Islamic State of Afghanistan having only one article. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 06:00, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support The recent changes to the topic of this article should be reverted. This article is specifically about the state ran from 1996 to 2001. There is already a higher-level article encompassing both this period and the period beyond, at Taliban. Changing the concept of this pushes it towards being a WP:FORK of that overarching page. However, I don't think 2021 needs to be split into a new article. Presumably such content will be on the main Afghanistan page once things settle down. CMD (talk) 06:05, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Comment I disagree with reverting the changes as per my previous arguments above The Gentle Sleep (talk 07:23, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

I am giving my final argument for Oppose, which addresses the primary arguments against it and relies on solid facts.

Let me make one thing dead clear. The Taliban and the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan are the same entity and always have been. One is a common name, one is an official name. The usage on here of ‘Islamic Emirate’ for the 96-01 period and Taliban for the 01-21 period is misleading and is built off bad assumptions made in the 2000s on where things were going.

There is no break in continuity. The Islamic Emirate (Taliban), even in their darkest days of 2002 and 2003, still held on to land in the country near the border. Not much, but they never lost. The situation from 2001-2021 was a civil war as far as Afghanistan government is concerned. The Islamic Emirate lost control of the cities and much of the land temporarily l, yes, but they clawed their way back in the late 2010s. The Islamic Emirate won the civil war, having maintained continuous existence since 1996 with some territory. We just switched to calling them the Taliban and treating it separate since nobody in the 2000s thought they’d make a comeback and win the civil war. Other countries have been brought to the brink in a civil war only to eventually make a comeback and win. Assad comes to mind. Sure, this is an extreme example timescale wise, but it still is one. We need to look at this in a vacuum and ditch our preconceived America centric notions built on a bunch of bullshit that often predates Wikipedia. We need to stop getting bogged down in the exact name and accept the continuity of the organization, which held land in Afghanistan and maintained leadership with no true cutoff of continuity, whether you call them the Emirate or the Taliban.

There is no big gap. There is a civil war where the Islamic Emirate got pushed to the brink, but eventually managed to win after 20 years. They never stopped existed. They never lost. We just called them by their nickname.

Here’s the way I say we should do it. One entity. One page. Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan(Taliban redirects here). There are three main sections in their history. Pre-Civil War, Civil War, and Post-Civil War. Everything is covered neatly in one place(though the transition would be initially messy, I admit) and it would showcase the literal fact that the group who ruled the country in 1996-2001 are the same group who fought a 20 year civil war and are the same group that eventually won it. The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, or unofficially, The Taliban.. All else, is just silly Westerners changing the way we addressed them. They never changed. They never broke continuity. 2604:3d09:1f80:ca00:bce7:4b48:c183:4ed1 (talk) 07:42, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support - We cannot and should not assume that a state which existed 20 years ago is the same one as the current regime. We already know that the current regime will have several distinct elements such as a very different military (thanks to 20 years of insurgency and the capture of so much U.S. military equipment) and economy (the modern Afghan economy was greatly transformed in the last two decades). In regards to the claims of "its the same state, it never ceased to exist" - the same argument could be used for dozens of states in the last few hundred years. Like, the Kingdom of France also never truly ceased to exist until its restoration in 1814, being continued by long-time insurgencies, governments-in-exile, and a massive exile movement. However, the years in between fundamentally transformed both France as well as as royalists. The same applies here; continuity should not be overplayed. Applodion (talk) 07:44, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Comment - What is this? Is your argument we should split the pages because the Taliban used 'U.S military equipment' in their recent assaults? Is that it? Are you aware that your points on Taliban using 'U.S weapons' and the economy being 'different' can all be added into headings under Military and Economy with sub-headings of 1996-2001 and 2021-present? Donenne (talk) 10:22, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support - Applodion made a great point. Just because there is technically continuity does not mean that there have not been massive changes. It is also much more readable, and as LordLoko said, China does the same thing. It divides Republican rule between Taiwan and the Mainland. VideōEtCorrigō (talk) 08:05, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Comment They are still recognised as continuities in eg. History of the Republic of China, however. Not to mention that, in principle, the war there was over and they permanently, more or less, changed territory. There is no reason to split a country/government/etc article just because it went through a long civil war which it eventually won. Dege31 (talk) 12:43, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support - The era break is significant, whatever state is forming post-Taliban miltary takeover it will be effectively distinct from the previous entity. BTW, is this really even a question we should be asking? The need for clarification in the title for this page seems obvious to me. - Wiz9999 (talk) 08:14, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support per Applodion - a split would make the most sense here.  Nixinova   T   C   08:19, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Considering the United States continued to hold most of their lands during the civil war, however, this comparison is lacking. A better case would be the French Third Republic, Free France, and the French Fourth Republic, i.e. a state, then an rebel/insurgency/exile phase, followed by a restoration. Note that these are indeed split into separate articles. Applodion (talk) 10:17, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose per @The Gentle Sleep:. Salvabl also has a valid point. Salamun44 08:44, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Support if Taiwan ever conquered all of China again, would we consider it the same entity as the republic of china in the 40s? ArabMan719 (talk) 09:24, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Comment Territorial extent doesn't merit different articles in and of itself- the Republic of China during the 40s and today occupy the same article, because they have continuity; just like the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. In that case the war has also ended in principle, here it never even ended until now, so they were just fighting an opponent in a civil war. Dege31 (talk) 12:43, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Oppose The 'Taliban' have officially been the Islamic Emirate since 1996. They lost power in 2001, continued calling themselves the Islamic Emirate in their official communiques. It is the same entity, the same group, the same ideology. There is no reason to change it.Vhstef (talk) 09:42, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Support- The Taliban are not going to give up power in Afghanistan any time soon without a fight, so I think this option is wiser. The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan of today and the one of 1996-2001 are simply not the same. For one, we know that China is planning to recognize the Taliban government as official. Vulcan300 (talk) 09:42, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Strongly Oppose Per The Gentle Sleep and Salvabl. The specific information governing policies within the 1996-2001 Islamic Emirate can easily be remedied by what the page looks like now i.e sections/sub-sections within the article delineating between different time periods. The case that these articles need to be split is ridiculous, there is no good reason for it. The Islamic Emirate (1996-2001) is the same entity which continued as a government in-exile from 2001-2021 during a hostile campaign against the U.S-appointed Transitional Islamic State of Afghanistan (2002-2004) and Islamic Republic of Afghanistan (2004-2021). There was no treaty or peace agreement which highlighted the fact that the Islamic Emirate ceased to exist or renounce its claims to the country. In other words, there has been a strict sign of continuation. Those pointing to the variously numbered French republics as support to split the pages are using incorrect logic. Those entity's officially proclaimed themselves as the first, second, third, fourth etc. French Republic's. A more correct comparison would be if this Islamic Emirate was officially known as 'The Second Islamic Emirate' which is not the case. Not to mention that all those French Republics were set-up by different governments each without a relation to the previous republic before it (i.e same political party which was in office at the time of the previous etc.). Additionally, the argument that Wiki-users will somehow become confused that there is only one Islamic Emirate page when the Taliban operated it in different periods holds absolutely 0 water. In fact, it is the complete opposite. Any detail over political recognition (like China potentially recognising the Islamic Emirate) can easily be added in the article itself with one referenced sentence that they did not do so in 1996-2001. The Taliban of 1996 is no different than the Taliban today in terms of political-leadership, goals, aspirations etc. So why then split the pages? Donenne (talk) 10:02, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Much of the 2001-era Taliban leadership is dead, the economy and military are completely transformed, the geopolitical situation has changed, and even in regard to policies there are major differences (the old Emirate was opposed to drug trade, the new one is mostly funded by it; the current Emirate at least claims to treat women better than the old one). It is also false to say that in other cases mentioned above the states "officially proclaimed themselves as the first, second, third, fourth etc." They did not. In most cases, this was retroactively applied - Vichy France did not call itself Vichy France, and the First French Republic did not call itself the "first". There are also cases where the declaration of a "new" republic does not lead to separate articles because the official declaration is bogus - case in point, Zaire declared a "third" republic in the 1990s, but the declaration did not change the state (at least not in the conventional way). Applodion (talk) 10:23, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Military, Economy, Leadership, policies on women, drugs et al. can all be addressed internally within the article under headings and is not worthy to create a second article. I'm also not one to really call a declaration 'bogus' when the ones doing the 'declaring' have de-facto control over almost all of a country with a population of 38 million people. Donenne (talk) 10:37, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

In Zaire's case, the local people and the rest of the world called it bogus, not me. Thus, we did not split off a new article about the 1990-1997 Zairian state. In contrast, major differences exist between the pre-2001 and post-2021 IEA. Applodion (talk) 10:43, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

The IEA didn't exactly stop existing between 2001 and 2021. How would this be dealt with? Dege31 (talk) 12:43, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Comment I generally prefer not to speculate about motives, but adopting the policy of referring to the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan as "The Taliban" was a geopolitical move to delegitimize them. The IE was the legitimate government prior to the US invasion, and distancing the current enemy from the regime being overthrown was just good optics (especially considering the fact that the IE had previously been US allies.) I suspect that some people may have a vested interest in not having that bit of spin doctoring undone. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 10:16, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Erm, no? The Taliban are a movement, whereas the Emirate is a state. These are two different things. Applodion (talk) 10:18, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Comment They have always consistently referred to themselves as the state known as the IE, have held territory, have flown their flag in said territory, and enforced their laws as a state would. The name "the Taliban" was assigned to them, they never used it to refer to themselves. They have always been a state. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 10:20, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

That's not the point. The "Taliban" are a political movement which governed the Emirate. To illustrate this, let's take an example: A female civilian in southern Afghanistan in 2000. This individual would live in the Emirate, but she is no Taliban, as she is not part of the movement and does not support it. In contrast, the governor of her area is a Taliban. He serves the state - the Emirate, but he already joined the Taliban in 1994 when they were still based in Pakistan and had not yet established a state in Afghanistan. See the difference? Applodion (talk) 10:40, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Comment Borders change, they never stopped flying their flag or enforcing their laws in the areas the IE controlled. The distinction between the Taliban and The Islamic Emirate is entirely semantic, because what you are calling the Taliban is simply the military of The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 10:57, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Something cannot be both semantically the same as something else, while also being "the military of" that thing. Those are two contradictory views. For the body that "never stopped flying their flag or enforcing their laws", we already have an article, at Taliban. This article is specifically for the time period where that body formed the dominant government of the country, a more focused article of the larger topic per WP:Summary style. (On a separate issues, no sources have been provided that support the change in topic of this article.) CMD (talk) 15:30, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Strong support - regardless of whether the new government is the same as the previous one, as they proclaim themselves to be, the state from 1999 to 2001 is of distinct historical interest in of itself. In most cases, this appears to be how situations like this are handled on Wikipedia (see French, Polish and Chinese/Taiwanese history for instance). Ichthyovenator (talk) 10:29, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Support - Absolutely agreed, just separate the article like how other countries articles separate their regime period into first government and second government, for example like first republic to second republic. Mhatopzz 10:42, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Comment - For the record, I do not support the current inter-twined layout of the Islamic Emirate with two sub-headings regarding 1996 and 2021 for each heading. I believe the headings should be separated for 1996 in the first half of the article and then the second half for 2021 comprising the same headings, sub-headings etc. Donenne (talk) 10:53, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Comment Absolutely agreed with Donenne, no new article should be made, there should be different sub-headings for 1996 and 2021. Salamun44 10:56, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Comment Yeah, different subheadings is the most sane way to handle it imo, it's what was done for Islamic State of Afghanistan --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 10:58, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Oppose per arguments above. Dege31 (talk) 12:43, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Oppose the 1996-2001 Emirate never formally dissolved or was disestablished and had indeed an insurgency phase LuanLoud 14:50, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Oppose - previous opposing arguments Aleksandar The Macedonian (talk) 13:02, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Support - per separate french/polish/chinese/taiwanese history argument. The Republic of Afghanistan was the legitimate recognized government for 20 years, this is a new government which will probably be pretty different from the first Taliban. Err on the side of separation of the articles. - Abovfold (talk) 13:31, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Support - Totally agreed. The distinction between the two periods of Taliban rule is correct from a historical and encyclopedic point of view. It should also be emphasized how Wikipedia has rightly held up separate articles for the Taliban (as an Islamist movement and a military organization), the first State entity they set up after assuming control of Afghanistan (the 1996-2001 Emirate) and the period of insurgency following their fall from power in 2001.--Sid-Vicious (talk) 13:41, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Support - It doesn't matter what Taliban claimed.--Martianmister (talk) 14:12, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Oppose The Taliban government existed as an unrecognized rump state constantly- that sort of continuity makes splitting it in 2 unwise, in my opinion. Zellfire999 (talk) 14:30, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Support - Article should be split between Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996–2001) for the pre-2001 Taliban government, Taliban insurgency for the period from December 2001 to August 2021 (as it currently exists), and Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan as a redirect to Afghanistan to reflect the current Taliban-controlled state. The Taliban was not internationally recognized by any country as the de jure or de facto government of Afghanistan during their 20 years as an insurgency, and should be listed as such regardless of what they say. ISIL is not recognized as having ever been the government of Syria despite at one point controlling more than half the country. PolarManne (talk) 14:44, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Oppose for now and wait the sources. --Panam2014 (talk) 14:46, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Support it may have the same name (Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan), but we are dealing with two different states, with a 20 years period in the middle. Two pages would be useful.--Karma1998 (talk) 14:57, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Oppose - The Kingdom of Greece existed 1832–1924 and again 1935–1973; we don't see separate articles of each. It is the same with the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, governed by the Taliban, existed 1996–2001 and again since 2021; it is not necessary for separate articles. HLE (talk) 15:06, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

They DID exist non-stop since 1996. The 2001-2021 insurgency(which in hindsight is more of a civil war) was them, we just switched from their official name to their nickname. So we should have three sections, prs-civil war, civil war, post civil war, all in one article. 2604:3d09:1f80:ca00:bce7:4b48:c183:4ed1 (talk 15:21, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Oppose - Just like how the Republics of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania between 1918-1940 and 1991-today use the same article since they are considered the same entity with a period of "Soviet occupation" (as opposed to other former post-Soviet states that draw their lineage from their Soviet Republics), so should this state. It is the same entity. --Havsjö (talk) 15:23, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Oppose - The Kingdom's of England and Scotland have one article despite a gap in the middle which was rule by the Commonwealth and later Protectorate. As do many other countries as noted above - the same should be done here 2a00:23c8:6e97:1001:8c1e:9fc5:9b:9700 (talk) 15:26, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Oppose - That split would be under the assumption that the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan ceased to exist throughout that 20 year gap, which it hasn't. The Islamic Emirate still controlled and administered significant swathes of territory in Afghanistan. For a split to be warranted the Islamic Emirate would have to have ceased to exist throughout 2001-2021, which it hasn't. Dabaqabad (talk) 15:39, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Support It just makes things easier.Angelgreat (talk) 16:12, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Wow man, the greatest reason I have heard on this talk page. Salamun44 talk 16:17, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• FILIBUSTER my vote is to hold this vote open for a while. Clearly this article split needs to be done, and certainly it can be done by the end of the year. However, there is not enough known about the 2021 Emirate to justify a separate article today. It's possible that by the end of the week there will be enough information for a split, and it might take three. Let's just wait. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 16:28, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

@力: It looks inevitable to me that an article will be created within a few hours and, when that will happen, we will have no policy-based reason to delete it or deny its notability. Maybe I'm wrong, though. JBchrch talk 16:40, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

The policy based reason for the deletion of any such article is that it would be a WP:CFORK of Taliban and Afghanistan. CMD (talk) 01:53, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

• Weak support. per the precedent that successive regimes inside a single country are not presented in one continuous article per regime, but in several article that each document a specific temporal period JBchrch talk 16:36, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

May I show you the exception to the precedent? See Islamic State of Afghanistan.Manabimasu (talk) 17:22, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

@Manabimasu: Good point, move to weak support — still support because a 5-year gap is different than a 20-year gap in my view. JBchrch talk 17:31, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

@JBchrch: See Bogd Khanate of Mongolia. Zoozaz1 talk 04:12, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Comment. Most of the people saying Support have pathetic arguments. User 47.33.186.77 and HyperEagle say support without even giving any reason. User Nice4What says Combining the two would confuse readers? Some user says "It's easier to read" without mentioning their username, talk page and UTC time. ArabMan719 also gives a bad argument sorry to say. Aleksandar The Macedonian says support without given any argument. Martianmister supports and says "It doesn't matter what Taliban claims". Taliban does not claim, Taliban now officially controlls the area. Angelgreat supports giving the great reason "It just makes things easier". Is this a joke? Most of the people Opposing actually have arguments and I think they are better arguments than the people who Support. Salamun44 talk 16:35, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Comment. Most of the people who have Opposed have much more sensible arguments than most of the people who have supported. I think we should currently oppose and wait for more news to arrive. Salamun44 talk 17:23, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose: As mentioned by Chessrat. Zakaria ښه راغلاست (talk) 17:40, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support – They should have been separate in the first place as I mentioned in my comment in an earlier thread of this talk page. It'll never happen, but just say the Republic of China gained control of the mainland again. Would that really be an effective argument for not having separate articles? They may be the same thing in name, but they are separated by a significant length of time and history insofar as we consider them the effective government of Afghanistan. For the continuous existence of the Taliban government in exile, we already have the Taliban article. Master of Time (talk) 19:04, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Also, I should clarify that I believe the "current" period of Taliban rule should probably be covered in the regular Afghanistan article. There wasn't a separate Islamic Republic of Afghanistan article until that government collapsed. Master of Time (talk) 19:09, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
    • I agree, if split Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996-2001) being separate) should redirect to Afghanistan as is standard. Gotitbro (talk) 20:08, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Weak support - Per arguments above. 186.158.132.97 (talk) 20:18, 16 August 2021 (UTC) 186.158.132.97 (talk) 10:39, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose One continous entity and article is short enough. Splits can be made later if article is long enough Benica11 (talk) 20:15, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose - The new Taliban regime is a direct continuation of the one that existed from 1996 to 2001, no need for a new article which would be a waste of time considering it would have substanial duplicate information. This is like creating separate articles for the Ethopian Empire because Italy was in control for 5 years in between. Silly and no point. Ecpiandy (talk) 20:27, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Comment The most direct parallel would be The Islamic State of Afghanistan which is a single page but is very easy to understand. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 20:43, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose They are the same entity using the IEA title even when they were ousted Jibran1998 (talk) 20:45, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Strongly Support definitely different subjects, just as the article for countries like germany is split into one article per form of the country, this should be done here. between 2001 and 2021 there was a different form of country and this this two should be seperated aswell, even tho they claim to be the same. Norschweden (talk) 20:53, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• They do not "claim" to be the same, they are the same. The Taliban has consistently held territory from 1996 to 2001 and from 2002 to the present day. The Islamic Emirate was the structure they used to govern those territories the entire time. Not being in full control of a country does not make the time you retake control into a new country. See the Islamic State of Afghanistan article for just that situation. The fact is that the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan has been in constant existence from 1996 to the present day. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 20:58, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Weak Support Merely splitting the article in two is not a statement by us that the first and second incarnations of the IEA are different entities, nor does it violate NPOV by denying claims to the constitutional legitimacy of the IEA during the 2001-2021 period. It merely enhances readability by recognizing two different historical epochs. Chetsford (talk) 00:19, 17 August 2021 (UTC)\
• Comment If the article to be split, the articles should be clear to mention that they are the same entity and has existed more or less continuously from it's declaration in 1996. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 02:18, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Oppose− As the others have said, it’s one organization. Keep it simple— Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.228.78.12 (talk • contribs) 01:16, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Oppose I see the merits of both, but it makes sense to me that, despite a two-decades-long civil war, the Emirate is widely understood to be the same entity, and to delegitimate this understanding veers closer to partisanship than accepting it does. Garnet Moss (talk) 02:32, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Strongly Oppose Not doing this will cause more problems in the long term. The Emirate has existed nonstop since 1996, so why split it? In fact, some of the stuff from the Taliban page should be moved here. 208.85.212.65 (talk) 03:38, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose I will add the Bogd Khanate of Mongolia as another example of where a state was dis-established and re-established and has the same Wikipedia article. It is the same regime, interrupted by 20 years of civil war. That being said, it may be better to wait to see how the situation develops rather than make an immediate judgement. Zoozaz1 talk 04:09, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

We seperate every french republic. So we can seperate this regime. ChocFrosted (talk) 04:37, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose Still same militant group. TolWol56 (talk) 05:33, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Support – Votes should never be about personal principles or opinions, but Wikipedia policy and the content of the article. Periods of rule are generally divided into their own articles to avoid one massive primary article. CentreLeftRight ✉ 05:53, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Comment The most direct parallel for this situation is the Islamic State of Afghanistan which had a several years break in the middle during the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan's 1st period of dominant control. The Islamic State of Afghanistan is a single page, and considering it was the same region, close to the same time, and similar circumstances there can be no better precedent to go by.

Oppose The Islamic Emirate may have lost control of the majority of Afghanistan but they still controlled districts. They were fighting a civil war and they have now won. Also, the Taliban still continued to refer to themselves as the Islamic Emirate even after they lost control in 2001. They were obviously unrecognised but they still held control. The Islamic Emirate never ceased to exist rather it lost control of the majority of Afghanistan but they have now regained control in 2021. Hamza Ali Shah (talk) 10:50, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

• Call for consensus - The discussion to merge Taliban into Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan seems to be at a near consensus. Since merging the two pages requires this page not be split, and because a single page would match the closest analog to this situation (Islamic State of Afghanistan), I propose we call consensus against splitting the page. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 10:51, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
  • I strongly oppose that change. That discussion has way fewer participants than this one and should be ignored if this one reaches a different conclusion. Master of Time (talk) 16:43, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support. Maybe the same regime, but different backgrounds, different environment, and possibly different policies. The new IEA can be seen as a country in its new era, or simply a whole other country. --魔琴 (Zauber Violino) (talk) 08:03, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Multiple !votes by the same users

The closer of this discussion should be aware that 2604:3d09:1f80:ca00:bce7:4b48:c183:4ed1 have !voted multiple times in the discussion above. JBchrch talk 17:11, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:BCE7:4B48:C183:4ED1 (talk) 18:02, 16 August 2021 (UTC) I’m just trying to evolve my case as I read more on things. Not only should these be kept together, but it is increasingly clear to be the 2001-2021 Taliban should also be included. The Taliban of the 2001-2021 Civil war called themselves the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, because they are the exact same organization that held Kabul from 1996-2001, and the exact same organization that took it back. They held land and maintained organizational continuity throughout this entire period. All three should share an article, whether it called called Taliban for wiki commons or Islamic Emirate for honesty, whether it’s separate from the Afghanistan page or not. Let us ditch the artificial distinction between the Civil War Taliban, and the Islamic Emirate.

• I totally agree with 2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:BCE7:4B48:C183:4ED1. I think there should be quick response to this discussion, probably ending in no merge. Salamun44 talk 18:05, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Strongly Support Syed Aashir (talk) 07:37, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

@Syed Aashir: Another user who "strongly supports" and gives no reason/argument. If you want to vote, give a reason. Salamun44 talk 09:31, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Solved discussion

Oops, sorry I'm not completely used to how this works yet. I didn't realize this was a vote, I thought we were just debating the issue. I'll be careful not to bold the word more than once in the future. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 19:13, 16 August 2021 (UTC) I fixed it, so the error can be marked as closed now. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 19:52, 16 August 2021 (UTC) The Gentle Sleep Thank you for your cooperation. The clearest way to do this is to preface your subsequent comments with Comment in bold, so that the closer can identify that they are not standalone !votes. If you don't mind doing that, I will gladly close the discussion. JBchrch talk 21:03, 16 August 2021 (UTC) My previous comments are now labeled correctly, sorry for the confusion. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 21:22, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Thank you The Gentle Sleep. JBchrch talk 21:32, 16 August 2021 (UTC) The closer of this discussion should also be aware that HyperSheep, 47.33.186.77, Angelgreat gave no reason for supporting. Also I only voted two times, not many multiple times. It should also be noted that JBchrch has voted multiple times and calling others for voting multiple times. Salamun44 talk 17:40, 16 August 2021 (UTC) @Salamun44: I have !voted multiple times? I think you may be confused: I have subsequently changed my !vote but I have not !voted multiple times on this talk page or anywhere else. Also, what do you mean by calling others for voting multiple times? Are you implying that I have WP:CANVASSed?JBchrch talk 18:12, 16 August 2021 (UTC) @JBchrch: Sorry, by the way, I have also voted one time, and made some comments on other people's arguments. Salamun44 talk 18:19, 16 August 2021 (UTC) @Salamun44: I count three times where you have started a comment with "Oppose", which is generally understood to be a !vote, and something you can do only once in any given discussion. I invite you to replace the two last "Opposes" with "Comment" instead. JBchrch talk 18:23, 16 August 2021 (UTC) @JBchrch:, I have changed the terms. I previously didn't knew sorry. Salamun44 talk 18:26, 16 August 2021 (UTC) @Salamun44: Thank you very much. I will now remove your name from my comment above and collapse this discussion. JBchrch talk 18:28, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose - Just like Kingdom of Greece, there is no need to seperate the article just beacause it collapsed for a short time. Infact the islamic emirate still continued to exist as insurgency(until 2021). So I dont think we need to seperate it. PN27 (talk) 11:49, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support - It may well transpire that at a later date the two periods can be merged (per Greece and other examples), but for now, for both practical and policy reasons, it makes more sense to write the article for the new regime BEFORE trying to see how it fits into the historical picture. The new regime may also be what the reader most wants to know at present - or at least a clear distinction between then and what is unfolding now. Proper sources will in time be available, but at present we are all guessing. Opposers are mistaken in several respects, in many cases they are confusing the 'State' with the 'ruling group'. The Nazi party is not the same thing as Nazi Germany, the British kingdom is not the same as the British monarchy, nor the current Royal House (family). Even if Taliban and IEofA retained the same name and personell throughout, an actual functioning-ish state with defined territory and power structure is not synonymous with an insurgency group holding minimal territory and very limited governmental functions. Opposers are also guessing a continuity in amything other than name, which none of us knows yet. Pincrete (talk) 12:31, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
• Comment - I would like to note that I concur with the sentiments expressed by the User above, Pincrete, as it accurately highlights that the practical reality as of now should distinguish the two periods of the Taliban's control as well as most assuredly separating the Taliban article from the Islamic Emirates. The Taliban can be seen closest to a "political party or organization" in terms of how the CPP is separate from China, or the All-India Muslim League or Indian National Congress is separated from the India or Pakistan articles, or the House of Hashem or House of Saud is distinct from the state ruled by it.

• Strongest support. The 1996–2001 state (i.e., a legal structure in place in a given geographic area) ceased to exist in 2001 and was replaced by a state called Islamic Republic of Afghanistan. Frankly, it is irrelevant that a bunch of former officials clang to the name and kept putting it, somewhere in their homes, on letterheads or their websites. It was just a fancy claim that had no recognition either locally or in international law. I have no doubts that the Emirate created now, by renaming the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, is a new entity, both internally and in international law, even if the underlying ideology may be similar and some of the officials may be the same. 2601:402:4280:15e0:5c43:f199:ff12:9a9d (talk) 21:19, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Also worth keeping in mind that while some countries (China, etc.) are likely to formally recognise the current government, this will not imply recognition for the 2001–2021 Taliban "state" or the 1996–2001 state. To put it simply, we should not conflate the three. — kashmīrī ^TALK 21:43, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

• Facts and citations - The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan have continued to operate as a constant organization during the 20 year civil war , are flying the same flag over the capital , are using the same name , and continued to enforce their laws within their territory during the entire war.

Due to the cited facts I've laid out:

• The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan has continued to operate as a government in exile and as such were long since established as a government.
• The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan currently controls the capital and is the dominant state in the region.
• Because the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan was previously a partially recognized state, it stands to reason that they are currently a partially recognized state unless there are reliable sources showing that nations including Saudi Arabia who are already on record as supporting the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan have ceased to recognize them.
• Afghanistan should redirect to Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, or Afghanistan should be set up as a regional page with the primary page being Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (similar to how China and Mainland China are set up.) --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 08:28, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

I largely agree with the opening stated facts, but they lead me to an opposite conclusion. Firstly, this is conflating a 'state' with the political group who are in charge of it. More importantly it is ignoring practical considerations in order to make some point about continuity. Others cite the Greek Monarchy article as an template to be copied, but this is crucially different in two respects. Firstly history has now made clear how various incarnations of the monarchy 'mesh' together. Secondly, we now know how much RS material is available, and this factor as much as any sense of continuity, dictates the most efficient form being a single article. Of course we don't yet know how much material is going to be available for the new regime - but other practical considerations IMO dictate that it is going to be easier to write the new article without the burden of meshing with the old or interim set-ups. This material may well end up in a single article, but it is premature IMO and invites WP:OR to pre-decide a continuity. Pincrete (talk) 09:39, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Proposed Alternative:

• Distinguish the "Taliban" (the organization / movement / militant-political party) with this title (the government)
• Redirect this title to "Afghanistan" or "Government of Afghanistan" as it is the current formal name of the regime; all governance, diplomatic relations etc., can go under either. This prevents content duplication.
• Use "Islamic Republic of Afghanistan" to describe the previous government 2001-2021
• Use "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996–2001)" to describe the previous government 1996-2001 ruled by Taliban.

Thoughts? NoNews! 14:02, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Support Proposed Alternative is the only viable solution. Afghanistan should an article about the current state. For the past Afghan states, the reader can read on Republic of Afghanistan (1973–1978), Democratic Republic of Afghanistan (1978–1992) or Islamic State of Afghanistan (1992–2002), Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996–2001) Transitional Islamic State of Afghanistan (2002–2004) or Islamic Republic of Afghanistan (2004–2021). Delasse (talk) 15:51, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Strongly Oppose The Emirate is and will be unrecognized and plays they're a puppet for the Taliban. This proposed alternative will never work. Angelgreat (talk) 14:10, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

The Taliban is now in charge; there's no other governmental body in Afghanistan, nor any government in exile; currently all the information on the previous government have been moved to "Islamic Republic of Afghanistan". What are you going to write for the article on "Afghanistan", with regards to governance and foreign relations? Wouldn't it be repeating what's on this article? NoNews! 14:18, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

No if the opposition holds then this article will merge with Afghanistan, so in the end it will be one article. Islamic Republic of Afghanistan article was once just all part of Afghanistan article. Its government's portions were removed from Afghanistan article because of the sources on control of the state.Manabimasu (talk) 16:48, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Support I agree, let's take ROC as an example, we all know that the current ROC in Formosa is direct continuation of ROC before 1949, and have the same constitution, even so, we have two separate articles for the same state. Mohammed 2976 (talk) 14:51, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Oppose This proposal wants to split the article as in the previous prosposal. Because of the split of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan into two separate articles. Even if the government had ended control in 2001, we don't know if such government was in exile till now. See this source was in 2013. Manabimasu (talk) 16:44, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Comment Taiwan ceased to be a useful comparison when the Taliban won. A better comparison would be if the ROC suddenly took back the mainland in 1970. We’d probably treat it as one entity just as the US had.

Kinda silly to have one article for a country that has had it's establishment declared twice. The Taliban themselves are trying to open a new page and avoid the mistakes of the 1996-2001 administration. Cedwoodint (talk) 18:40, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose - The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan have continued to operate as a constant organization during the 20 year civil war , are flying the same flag over the capital , are using the same name , and continued to enforce their laws within their territory during the entire war.

Due to the cited facts I've laid out:

• The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan has continued to operate as a government in exile and as such were long since established as a government.
• The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan currently controls the capital and is the dominant state in the region.
• Because the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan was previously a partially recognized state, it stands to reason that they are currently a partially recognized state unless there are reliable sources showing that nations including Saudi Arabia who are already on record as supporting the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan have ceased to recognize them.
• Afghanistan should redirect to Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, or Afghanistan should be set up as a regional page with the primary page being Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (similar to how China and Mainland China are set up.) The Gentle Sleep (talk) 08:26, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Support proposal with the addition that an article should be created for the insurgent state between 2001 and 2021, where the rebel governance of the Taliban can be placed. BTW, The Gentle Sleep continues to ignore the multiple differences between the pre-2001 emirate, insurgent emirate, and current emirate. Applodion (talk) 10:12, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

• Clarification of my position - There are obviously differences in the nature of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan at various points in it's existence, including differences in the material conditions they faced. This is frequently handled by having subsections devoted to the notable periods of a country's rule. I'm also aware that the Taliban is the political movement, what I have been arguing for (perhaps poorly) is that the page for the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan should contain any information regarding actions taken by the Taliban as the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan while they operated as a government in exile. I'm not saying that Taliban needs to be entirely merged and deleted, just that we should support the perspectives of all parties in the interest of a neutral point of view. There may be plenty of sources stating that the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan was not a government in exile, however we need to consider the political landscape surrounding the Taliban and acknowledge that most sources on this issue have an anti-IEA bias. It is my position that we should also refer to their government by their chosen name where possible, because doing otherwise if nothing else creates the appearance of bias. I hope that clears up our misunderstanding. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 15:01, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME would seem to suggest that, what you call the "government in exile" should actually be in the article 'Taliban', as should any material treating them as a political organisation (akin to a political party). Whatever they have called themselves, they have never been referred to as IE of A while they have been 'underground', neither officially nor in MSM. It would make more sense for 'Emirate' articles to be about actual functioning regimes, ie before and after US involvement. We don't ordinarily or systematically refer to political groups by the name of their own choosing, besides, there is nothing inherently perjorative about 'Taliban' as a name in English. Pincrete (talk) 15:56, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

• An entity is always the highest authority in regard to their own name. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 03:59, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

It seems to me the insurgency section of this article has proven there is no gap. Which has always been the case, a continuous entity calling itself the Islamic Emirate since 1996. The supposed ‘gap’ was the entire reason we tried to split this (despite the main Afghanistan page deciding to put it all together) and with the gap proven false I see no reason to continue this. 2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:E86A:9CDF:6E17:F80 (talk) 17:02, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

References

Move/split motion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was no consensus. Muhibm0307 (talk) 09:32, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

---

Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan → History of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996–2001) – A motion presented for debate:

1. That this page be moved to History of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996–2001).
2. That the title Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan redirect to Taliban, with a followup discussion to propose that the redirect be changed to Afghanistan.
3. That information on this page about the 2021 government be moved to Afghanistan.

This should avoid issues with article revision history. The title History of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996–2001) is long but indisputably reflects the content of the article; once the political situation is clear a shorter title can be proposed. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 19:45, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Selective ping: @The Gentle Sleep, Chetsford, Moxy, Pincrete, Salvabl, IntUnderflow, Muhibm0307, and Zoozaz1: User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 19:59, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Support Reasonable proposal. Zoozaz1 talk 20:43, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Comment-By adding (1996-2001) to the move, this motion is no different from the previous proposal. Maybe have the page moved to History of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan instead.Manabimasu (talk) 20:27, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

• The intent was to be deliberately ambiguous as-to whether it is the History of the "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996–2001)", or the History of the "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan" (1996–2001). I note History of the United States (1865–1918) as comparable for the latter. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 20:33, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
  • ​ In your comparison, History_of_the_United_States is more ambiguous than History of the United States (1865–1918) as history not related to a specific time period and contains information from all periods. You repeated "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996–2001)" twice so not understood on what you meant by ambiguity. If the desire is ambiguity, remove the dates from the title.Manabimasu (talk) 20:42, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
    • There are two interpretations. In interpretation 1, the "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996–2001)" is considered a separate entity from the current regime. The dates are needed to disambiguate from the history of the 2021 regime. In interpretation 2, the "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan" is a single entity that has existed since 1994, and the article is simply a content-size split from History of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (which should probably redirect to History of Taliban. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 20:59, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
      • Better understood now. Thanks for clarifying. Manabimasu (talk) 21:03, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Support makes sense to me Chetsford (talk) 21:38, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Oppose Strongly Not a solid idea in any stretch or sense. That simply worsens the already existing article clutter on these subjects to an even greater degree. The entire reason for keeping this together in the previous deadlocked vote was to avoid that problem, and you're proposal is even WORSE on that front. 68.144.93.30 (talk) 00:51, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

*Strongly oppose - There was already a vote on this matter, and my previous arguments on the matter still stand. There is no reason to open another discussion on the same matter again at this time. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 00:58, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

• We should also allow the merge proposal to resolve before creating more conflicting proposals. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 01:09, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

• I'll also add that we should keep the information about the troubled past of the IEA together with the other information on this topic. Separating the 1996 - 2001 period from the current rule removes critical context about their history of human rights abuses, and risks causing uninformed readers to miss that important context when considering travel to the region. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 01:40, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Oppose This is the opposite of reducing page clutter. Please don’t.

• Comment This is getting out of hand. The amount of move, merge, split and every other kind of request across all of these Afghanistan pages is ridiculous. We need to let some of these close before opening new requests. BSMRD (talk) 03:55, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

• Call for request closure for the reasons stated above. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 04:14, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Support But I think that the title should be just Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996–2001). Syed Aashir (talk) 09:35, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 20 August 2021 (2)

181.41.127.159 (talk) 14:25, 20 August 2021 (UTC)I wish to edit and conlude the info regarding your history

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:29, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Don't do this

Afghanistan! Its Afghanistan!!! Don't change wiki name!! Taliban terrorism will be end! AkshayReno (talk) 12:09, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

This is not a WP:SOAP. Whatever Afghanistan and its government is, we will abide by it. Totalitarian or not. With that logic North Korea shouldn't have an article.Alexceltare2 (talk) 00:19, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

We can't predict the future. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 13:29, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Flag

The official spokesperson for the Taliban posted on Twitter what appears to be the new flag of the emirate. The Taliban's website seems to be down at the moment, but here's a link to the tweet: https://twitter.com/Zabehulah_M33/status/1428236041039880193/photo/1 68.202.62.241 (talk) 08:43, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Nowhere in this tweet does it mention this to be their flag. The text on the bottom simply reads "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan".The tweet speaks about the 102th anniversary of Afghan independence and nothing about a supposed "new flag". it might be better to wait until their website is back up to change the flag. Jubq (talk) 14:32, 19 August 2021 (UTC)Jubq

National anthem

the taliban regime had banned musical instruments but not the nasheed the islamic emirate of afghanistan had a national anthem "da dai batoran nokor" le nom de la vidéo YouTube est « Afghanistan national anthem 1994 » donc s’il vous plaît changer l’information sur l’hymne AfghansPashtun (talk) 20:05, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

So please change the information for the anthem AfghansPashtun (talk) 20:06, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

The Taliban did not control Afghanistan in 1994, and I cannot find such a video. Do you have any more information? 73.71.251.64 (talk) 06:27, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Although you're like referring to anthem of the Islamic state, but taliban does Infact have nasheeds and only ban musical instruments and sounds, not songs AbdurRahman AbdulMoneim Userd898 23:17, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

https://mundigak.com/en/2019/04/09/5059/ AfghansPashtun (talk) 11:50, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

you have the video on the link which includes all the anthem of afghanistan also that of the taliban singing in nasheed AfghansPashtun (talk) 11:52, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

There are IEA/ Taliban videos with people singing nasheeds, so they don't seem to consider them haram --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 11:38, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

References

If we have a WP:RS that the anthem is this, lets include that and cite the reliable source. Let's just make sure we're not jumping the gun and this is is the official anthem. IntUnderflow (talk) 20:28, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

RL may be difficult to establish due to regulations around "extremist materials" online, and the nature of primary sources in regard to the IEA prior to August 15th. This is one of the main difficulties with finding RL in regard to the IEA in general, since anything that isn't through an anti-IEA lens before this point could have been seen as sympathetic towards terrorists in the west. The best case scenario would be them putting out a video to announce an official nasheed, since anything they release now is government communication and a reliable source. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 01:21, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

"Totalitarian" in infobox

This has been discussed before; see above. Such a label requires sources, preferably ones that explain its use with regard to the Emirate and do not merely apply it in passing. It is contrary to NPOV to insert the word "totalitarian" for the purpose of expressing personal judgements about the state's legitimacy. 73.71.251.64 (talk) 19:44, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I would have to agree, if we used such a threshold, people could put whatever pejorative for whichever government they can get derogatory political commentary. Else every argument could cite some source calling even the United States authoritarian over say policing disputes. If people want to establish that, better they show human rights abuses than tell people what adjective to use. Freepsbane (talk) 22:45, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree, authoritarianism is a spectrum and the term "totalitarian" isn't to be thrown around lightly based on personal feelings. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 07:20, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

I disagree entirely - reliable sources have used the term totalitarian to describe the previous incarnation of the IEA. Whilst the current situation is still unfolding, there is absolutely no reason to shy away from describing their previous incarnation as totalitarian, and (if one indulges the CRYSTAL here), if as predicted they begin their atrocities again resulting in RS describing them as totalitarian, we should not shy away from calling them that. See also: MANDY. 69.172.145.94 (talk) 05:29, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Where are those "reliable sources"? TolWol56 (talk) 05:30, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

You can't seriously be suggesting that descriptions of the 1996-2001 taliban rule was not described as totalitarian? I know we should AGF but this smacks so strongly of bad faith that I'm frankly shaken. How's this for starters [1]? 69.172.145.94 (talk) 06:23, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

69.172.145.94, can you please provide an excerpt from that source for verification?TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 20:53, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Sources I've seen used as citations for the IEA being totalitarian were comparing the religion of Islam to totalitarianism rather than discussing the IEA in particular. Not only were they bad sources, but they appeared to be Islamophobic hate propaganda which surely isn't accepted as a reliable source here. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 01:08, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Separate 1996-2001 and present-day Taliban rule into different articles

Extended content

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Wouldn't it make more sense to split the two regimes into separate eras/pages instead of trying to connect them together, despite having a 20-year gap in-between their rule? Justrz (talk) 23:18, 15 August 2021 (UTC) Agree Yes, Afghanistan is ruled by a new government and the article shall reflect that. Completely Agree Afghanistan is ruled by a new government. So why won't we merge it with the article Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan? Completely Disagree - Realistically, its the exact same entity now as it was 20 years prior, splitting would just cause confusion and spread of information that is unnecessary --Doobie777 (talk) 23:42, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Support - Whilst they may be the same entity, it's safe to assume that many things will (and already have) occurred in this latest incarnation. The fact that many nation states are on the cusp of recognising the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan as the official Government of the country solidifies the case for a new argument - the 1997-2001 incarnation was an unrecognised proto-state, whereas this one will most definitely seek out and receive international recognition. Donnellan0007 (talk) 14:23, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose - It is the same entity and separating into different articles would cause more confusion that it would alleviate. Brianahier (talk) 14:22, 16 August 2021 (UTC) I agree on this, I can't recall if this happened before but I think it'd just make the article much cleaner and easier to read and edit Spiritual Sausage (talk) 23:43, 15 August 2021 (UTC) Agree wholeheartedly HyperEagle (talk) 10:50, 16 August 2021 (UTC) (edit conflict) I would agree, once there's a critical mass about the "new" Taliban rule. They haven't yet even officially announced it, so let's not jump the gun. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 23:43, 15 August 2021 (UTC) Support - agreed. As an example, the French Fourth Republic was pretty much a recreation of the French Third Republic after a 6 year interim, but we have separate articles for a reason. Today's Taliban government will not be the same as the one that was deposed in 1996. Ganesha811 (talk) 23:55, 15 August 2021 (UTC) That is not really a good comparison. Vichy France is the direct continuation of the government of the Third Republic, which is why the Fourth Republic has a separate article, as it is a completely separate entity from the Third Republic. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 01:37, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Support -47.33.186.77 (talk) 00:13, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose - We just came to an agreement on this on the main page. It’s the same entity. The Islamic Emirate never ceased to exist, they’ve existed continuously since 1996. They lost control of the capital temporarily during a civil war, but eventually regained it and won said civil war. Treating them as separate entities is dishonest and fudges the truth of the situation. The Islamic Emirate ruled the country, got into a civil war, retreated to the countryside, slowly regained ground, and eventually won the civil war. Zoomed out with full hindsight of how things turned out, that’s what happened. They never lost, and the Republic never won. It was a 20 year civil war, the government that was in charge at the start eventually won despite setbacks. Support - Thought both Taliban entities, they're different historic periods of Afghan governance. Combining the two would confuse readers. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Thanks ♥) 01:23, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Comment - This can be remedied the way the article currently is now with headings. Irrelevant. Donenne (talk) 10:12, 16 August 2021 (UTC) The Taliban article could be seen as the one covering the continuous Islamic Emirate claim. Splitting off a 1996-2001 article would provide specific detail to that significant historical era. With the article being as long as it is, it'll only grow as the Second Islamic Emirate continues. That's why, even with having subheaders, yet another split discussion will happen because of the article's currently broad scope. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Thanks ♥) 13:41, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose - The modern Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan is a direct continuation of the one that existed from 1996 to 2001. It is not comparable to situations like the Baltic states claiming to be successors of their pre-invasion counterparts, as they are actually the direct successors of their soviet counterparts. Nor is it comparable to the French Fourth Republic and the French Third Republic, as the direct successor to the Third Republic is Vichy France, which was a direct continuation of the Third Republic. The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, on the other hand, has been in constant existence from 1996, despite not controlling any land for a period after 2001, it is the same entity as the 1996-2001 iteration. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 01:32, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Support - Separate states decades apart. It makes almost no sense to keep them together. 2601:194:827F:2F0:D964:BC85:72C5:F450 (talk) 01:35, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Support - https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/world/taliban-to-declare-islamic-emirate-of-afghanistan-official-297971 why would they need to declare something that already exist (and has existed for 25 years, supposedly)? BlackYaroslav (talk) 03:19, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Also, THERE IS NO 20 YEAR GAP. They never stopped existed, they just stopped ruling the cities for a while. The “Taliban” is the Emirate, the same entity. We need to think of this as a long, 20 year long civil war. The Emirate won. It’s the same Emirate that ruled in 1996-2001, the same Emirate that fought in the civil war from 2002-2021 and slowly regained ground(the one the media called the Taliban) and it’s the same Emirate that won that civil war. 2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:31C8:9F3C:4939:FFA3 (talk) 01:27, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose - There's continuity of existence, the emirate never stopped existing officially when it became an insurgency, so a split would be arbitrary. Chessrat (talk, contributions) 01:29, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Support - It's easier to read Support - Despite it being a direct continuation, these two states were nonetheless non-continuous and separated by history.180app (talk) 01:39, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose - The Islamic Emirate is the Taliban, the Taliban is the Islamic Emirate. Official name versus unofficial nickname. There is no break in continuity. The entity in question has existed continuously since 1996 and has held land in some degree since. We must remember this. The only reason we treated the Taliban and Islamic Emirate as separate in the first place is because we assumed the Republic had won, which was incorrect. The Emirate absolutely existed, continuously, since 1996. It’s just during the civil war period we called them by their unofficial nickname, the Taliban, and not their official name, the Islamic Emirate. But it’s always been the same entity. The Islamic Emirate got into a civil war, suffered losses, retook ground, and eventually won the civil war. We changed what we called them due to geopolitics and things that were wrong in hindsight, but make no mistake, there is no break in continuity. Break the artificial distinction between the Emirate and Taliban, and it becomes clear they never went anywhere. 2604:3d09:1f80:ca00:31c8:9f3c:4939:ffa3 (talk) 01:45, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Support - While the entity has continued to exist, the new page should simply be titled the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan with the former incarnation being named by the years it controlled in parenthesis, whilst adding a "not to be confused with" disclaimer as well as referencing in the infobox the initiall fall of kabul in 2001, and subsequent collapse of the Islamic republic/re-establishment. Wikipedia should serve to reflect the de facto situation as it existed, rather than the de jure existence of Islamic Emirate forces throughout the civil war.2601:402:4280:15e0:e178:c19c:2293:132f (talk) 01:52, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose This is the same government that got pushed out of Kabul in 2001, back where it started. Though leadership has shifted, its the same organization that has been fighting the same fight for over 20 years. BSMRD (talk) 01:50, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose - Splitting would hide the insurgency of the underground emirate. Not separated by history if the government was in hiding. May I ask why it would be harder? How much info is 5 years of rule? I think appropriate headers will not confuse readers and Infobox already explains the dates. Look at the Islamic state of Afghanistan. It was in exile but we don’t have a separate article for when it came back to power.Manabimasu (talk) 01:51, 16 August 2021 (UTC)Manabimasu (talk) 17:10, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose Democratic Republic of Timor-Leste existed only for a few days in the 70s, after that East Timor was an Indonesian province, and in 2002 it became an independent country again (under the name of Democratic Republic of Timor-Leste), and it is not splitted.. Salvabl (talk) 01:52, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Exactly... because the Timor-Leste of the 70s lasted a few weeks, while the Islamic Emirate of the 90s lasted five years. Very significant difference. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Thanks ♥) 13:41, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Support - As others have stated - although being a continuation of the same government - these are two separate states that have come to power in two distinct periods. RoadSmasher420 (talk) 02:07, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Support- The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan while sharing the same name with the state that existed from 1996 to 2001 is not a direct continuation of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan established in 1996. MogasTheThird (talk) 02:41, 16 August 2021 (UTC) It is a direct continuation of the 1996 entity. The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan and the Taliban refer to the same thing. One is an official name, one a nickname. It never went away, it was there for the whole civil war 2604:3d09:1f80:ca00:95ba:e6c3:b9b3:5407 (talk) 02:48, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Support Even the Taliban is yet to announce an official declaration of the Emirate, clearly signifying the break in its existence. And articles about the insurgency do exist, the Republic was internationally recognised no need to treat the intergenum as completely irrelevant. Gotitbro (talk) 02:49, 16 August 2021 (UTC) SUpport While the Taliban is the same group that controlled the original Emirate, the state was partially recognized as the legitimate government of Afghanistan, the same countries that recognize it would later support the post-2001 government. Besides, it's better for the sake of readibility. For example Republic of China redirects to Taiwan and Republic of China (1912–1949) is a separate different page. LordLoko (talk) 02:58, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Support The Taliban is now the Akhundzada Taliban not the Omar Taliban. SpinnerLaserzthe2nd (talk) 03:00, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Support The 1996-2001 government was, by the meaning of "1996 to 2001", discontinued in 2001. Another government was put into place after that. Although the previous Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan and the current Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan have the exact same, well, really everything, they were two separate governments. I would certainly be very confused if this was the first time I read this article. Matthewberns (talk) 03:18, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose Our honourable friend Salvabl brought up a great point about how the Wikipedia handled the Timor-Leste situation and their reasoning convinced me. The way we handle these situations should be consistent. The government of Timor-Leste before and after Indonesian occupation were in fact two separate governments and the Timor-Leste article was not split. But that's just my opinion. :-) Historicamatic (talk) 03:46, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Support Both represent different eras of Afghan rule, which deserves them 2 separate articles. Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 04:15, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Strongly Oppose The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan has continued to refer to itself by that name in official communications and has carried itself as a government in exile. Although the international community didn't recognize their authority, they have continued to enforce their laws upon the people and act as an official government regardless. The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan never stopped existing, there was simply a parallel government fighting with them for territory. I would add that The United States could be similarly split into two pages based on the fundamental changed to the nature of state vs federal power during and after The American Civil War. The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan has continued to use the same name officially, enforce their laws, and fly their flag within their controlled territory between 2004 and 2021, and as such have remained a continuous state regardless of how others refer to them. A continuous state is fundamentally a singular entity, Islamic_State_of_Afghanistan is also a single page regardless of the IEA holding dominant power in the middle of the ISA's dominance. Keeping the article together is the correct answer for these reasons and the reasons stated in the large unsigned post above. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 19:59, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Support Most of the article is already split between 1996-2001 and 2021-present, though nested across separate sections. As the "present" sections are expanded in the future, it is likely to lead to issues with readability. Additionally, I believe the contents to be disparate enough the justify separate pages. Orcaguy | Write me | Mon œuvre 04:26, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose per @The Gentle Sleep: Ytpks896 (talk) 04:54, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Support It's two different periods of Afghan history, although it's the same organisation as the previous one, the first Emirate was 20 yrs ago now. The 2nd Emirate has also a completely different history in terms of it's foundation (20yr war etc). I think this article should be in past-tense to talk about the pre-war government and the new article to mention whatever it is this new Emirate of Afghanistan does. I think there should be an article in same way there are different articles on the various French Republics etc.ThePaganUK (talk) 05:01, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Support It should be two different articles . The period difference as well as different circumstances . Romdwolf (talk) 05:43, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Comment In addition to my previous opposition, I would add that the real time difference between the first period of the Emirate administering territory and the second period is not as big as some are saying. The first period where the Taliban would have recaptured territory is probably around 2002, and they would have a governing structure to administer said territory, giving the Islamic Emirate a territorial existence from 1996 to 2001 and from 2002 to the present day. This fits in with the counterpart of the Islamic State of Afghanistan having only one article. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 06:00, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Support The recent changes to the topic of this article should be reverted. This article is specifically about the state ran from 1996 to 2001. There is already a higher-level article encompassing both this period and the period beyond, at Taliban. Changing the concept of this pushes it towards being a WP:FORK of that overarching page. However, I don't think 2021 needs to be split into a new article. Presumably such content will be on the main Afghanistan page once things settle down. CMD (talk) 06:05, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Comment I disagree with reverting the changes as per my previous arguments above The Gentle Sleep (talk 07:23, 16 August 2021 (UTC) I am giving my final argument for Oppose, which addresses the primary arguments against it and relies on solid facts. Let me make one thing dead clear. The Taliban and the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan are the same entity and always have been. One is a common name, one is an official name. The usage on here of ‘Islamic Emirate’ for the 96-01 period and Taliban for the 01-21 period is misleading and is built off bad assumptions made in the 2000s on where things were going. There is no break in continuity. The Islamic Emirate (Taliban), even in their darkest days of 2002 and 2003, still held on to land in the country near the border. Not much, but they never lost. The situation from 2001-2021 was a civil war as far as Afghanistan government is concerned. The Islamic Emirate lost control of the cities and much of the land temporarily l, yes, but they clawed their way back in the late 2010s. The Islamic Emirate won the civil war, having maintained continuous existence since 1996 with some territory. We just switched to calling them the Taliban and treating it separate since nobody in the 2000s thought they’d make a comeback and win the civil war. Other countries have been brought to the brink in a civil war only to eventually make a comeback and win. Assad comes to mind. Sure, this is an extreme example timescale wise, but it still is one. We need to look at this in a vacuum and ditch our preconceived America centric notions built on a bunch of bullshit that often predates Wikipedia. We need to stop getting bogged down in the exact name and accept the continuity of the organization, which held land in Afghanistan and maintained leadership with no true cutoff of continuity, whether you call them the Emirate or the Taliban. There is no big gap. There is a civil war where the Islamic Emirate got pushed to the brink, but eventually managed to win after 20 years. They never stopped existed. They never lost. We just called them by their nickname. Here’s the way I say we should do it. One entity. One page. Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan(Taliban redirects here). There are three main sections in their history. Pre-Civil War, Civil War, and Post-Civil War. Everything is covered neatly in one place(though the transition would be initially messy, I admit) and it would showcase the literal fact that the group who ruled the country in 1996-2001 are the same group who fought a 20 year civil war and are the same group that eventually won it. The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, or unofficially, The Taliban.. All else, is just silly Westerners changing the way we addressed them. They never changed. They never broke continuity. 2604:3d09:1f80:ca00:bce7:4b48:c183:4ed1 (talk) 07:42, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Support - We cannot and should not assume that a state which existed 20 years ago is the same one as the current regime. We already know that the current regime will have several distinct elements such as a very different military (thanks to 20 years of insurgency and the capture of so much U.S. military equipment) and economy (the modern Afghan economy was greatly transformed in the last two decades). In regards to the claims of "its the same state, it never ceased to exist" - the same argument could be used for dozens of states in the last few hundred years. Like, the Kingdom of France also never truly ceased to exist until its restoration in 1814, being continued by long-time insurgencies, governments-in-exile, and a massive exile movement. However, the years in between fundamentally transformed both France as well as as royalists. The same applies here; continuity should not be overplayed. Applodion (talk) 07:44, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Comment - What is this? Is your argument we should split the pages because the Taliban used 'U.S military equipment' in their recent assaults? Is that it? Are you aware that your points on Taliban using 'U.S weapons' and the economy being 'different' can all be added into headings under Military and Economy with sub-headings of 1996-2001 and 2021-present? Donenne (talk) 10:22, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Support - Applodion made a great point. Just because there is technically continuity does not mean that there have not been massive changes. It is also much more readable, and as LordLoko said, China does the same thing. It divides Republican rule between Taiwan and the Mainland. VideōEtCorrigō (talk) 08:05, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Comment They are still recognised as continuities in eg. History of the Republic of China, however. Not to mention that, in principle, the war there was over and they permanently, more or less, changed territory. There is no reason to split a country/government/etc article just because it went through a long civil war which it eventually won. Dege31 (talk) 12:43, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Support - The era break is significant, whatever state is forming post-Taliban miltary takeover it will be effectively distinct from the previous entity. BTW, is this really even a question we should be asking? The need for clarification in the title for this page seems obvious to me. - Wiz9999 (talk) 08:14, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Support per Applodion - a split would make the most sense here. Nixinova   T   C 08:19, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Considering the United States continued to hold most of their lands during the civil war, however, this comparison is lacking. A better case would be the French Third Republic, Free France, and the French Fourth Republic, i.e. a state, then an rebel/insurgency/exile phase, followed by a restoration. Note that these are indeed split into separate articles. Applodion (talk) 10:17, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose per @The Gentle Sleep:. Salvabl also has a valid point. Salamun44 08:44, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Support if Taiwan ever conquered all of China again, would we consider it the same entity as the republic of china in the 40s? ArabMan719 (talk) 09:24, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Comment Territorial extent doesn't merit different articles in and of itself- the Republic of China during the 40s and today occupy the same article, because they have continuity; just like the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. In that case the war has also ended in principle, here it never even ended until now, so they were just fighting an opponent in a civil war. Dege31 (talk) 12:43, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose The 'Taliban' have officially been the Islamic Emirate since 1996. They lost power in 2001, continued calling themselves the Islamic Emirate in their official communiques. It is the same entity, the same group, the same ideology. There is no reason to change it.Vhstef (talk) 09:42, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Support- The Taliban are not going to give up power in Afghanistan any time soon without a fight, so I think this option is wiser. The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan of today and the one of 1996-2001 are simply not the same. For one, we know that China is planning to recognize the Taliban government as official. Vulcan300 (talk) 09:42, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Strongly Oppose Per The Gentle Sleep and Salvabl. The specific information governing policies within the 1996-2001 Islamic Emirate can easily be remedied by what the page looks like now i.e sections/sub-sections within the article delineating between different time periods. The case that these articles need to be split is ridiculous, there is no good reason for it. The Islamic Emirate (1996-2001) is the same entity which continued as a government in-exile from 2001-2021 during a hostile campaign against the U.S-appointed Transitional Islamic State of Afghanistan (2002-2004) and Islamic Republic of Afghanistan (2004-2021). There was no treaty or peace agreement which highlighted the fact that the Islamic Emirate ceased to exist or renounce its claims to the country. In other words, there has been a strict sign of continuation. Those pointing to the variously numbered French republics as support to split the pages are using incorrect logic. Those entity's officially proclaimed themselves as the first, second, third, fourth etc. French Republic's. A more correct comparison would be if this Islamic Emirate was officially known as 'The Second Islamic Emirate' which is not the case. Not to mention that all those French Republics were set-up by different governments each without a relation to the previous republic before it (i.e same political party which was in office at the time of the previous etc.). Additionally, the argument that Wiki-users will somehow become confused that there is only one Islamic Emirate page when the Taliban operated it in different periods holds absolutely 0 water. In fact, it is the complete opposite. Any detail over political recognition (like China potentially recognising the Islamic Emirate) can easily be added in the article itself with one referenced sentence that they did not do so in 1996-2001. The Taliban of 1996 is no different than the Taliban today in terms of political-leadership, goals, aspirations etc. So why then split the pages? Donenne (talk) 10:02, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Much of the 2001-era Taliban leadership is dead, the economy and military are completely transformed, the geopolitical situation has changed, and even in regard to policies there are major differences (the old Emirate was opposed to drug trade, the new one is mostly funded by it; the current Emirate at least claims to treat women better than the old one). It is also false to say that in other cases mentioned above the states "officially proclaimed themselves as the first, second, third, fourth etc." They did not. In most cases, this was retroactively applied - Vichy France did not call itself Vichy France, and the First French Republic did not call itself the "first". There are also cases where the declaration of a "new" republic does not lead to separate articles because the official declaration is bogus - case in point, Zaire declared a "third" republic in the 1990s, but the declaration did not change the state (at least not in the conventional way). Applodion (talk) 10:23, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Military, Economy, Leadership, policies on women, drugs et al. can all be addressed internally within the article under headings and is not worthy to create a second article. I'm also not one to really call a declaration 'bogus' when the ones doing the 'declaring' have de-facto control over almost all of a country with a population of 38 million people. Donenne (talk) 10:37, 16 August 2021 (UTC) In Zaire's case, the local people and the rest of the world called it bogus, not me. Thus, we did not split off a new article about the 1990-1997 Zairian state. In contrast, major differences exist between the pre-2001 and post-2021 IEA. Applodion (talk) 10:43, 16 August 2021 (UTC) The IEA didn't exactly stop existing between 2001 and 2021. How would this be dealt with? Dege31 (talk) 12:43, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Comment I generally prefer not to speculate about motives, but adopting the policy of referring to the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan as "The Taliban" was a geopolitical move to delegitimize them. The IE was the legitimate government prior to the US invasion, and distancing the current enemy from the regime being overthrown was just good optics (especially considering the fact that the IE had previously been US allies.) I suspect that some people may have a vested interest in not having that bit of spin doctoring undone. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 10:16, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Erm, no? The Taliban are a movement, whereas the Emirate is a state. These are two different things. Applodion (talk) 10:18, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Comment They have always consistently referred to themselves as the state known as the IE, have held territory, have flown their flag in said territory, and enforced their laws as a state would. The name "the Taliban" was assigned to them, they never used it to refer to themselves. They have always been a state. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 10:20, 16 August 2021 (UTC) That's not the point. The "Taliban" are a political movement which governed the Emirate. To illustrate this, let's take an example: A female civilian in southern Afghanistan in 2000. This individual would live in the Emirate, but she is no Taliban, as she is not part of the movement and does not support it. In contrast, the governor of her area is a Taliban. He serves the state - the Emirate, but he already joined the Taliban in 1994 when they were still based in Pakistan and had not yet established a state in Afghanistan. See the difference? Applodion (talk) 10:40, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Comment Borders change, they never stopped flying their flag or enforcing their laws in the areas the IE controlled. The distinction between the Taliban and The Islamic Emirate is entirely semantic, because what you are calling the Taliban is simply the military of The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 10:57, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Something cannot be both semantically the same as something else, while also being "the military of" that thing. Those are two contradictory views. For the body that "never stopped flying their flag or enforcing their laws", we already have an article, at Taliban. This article is specifically for the time period where that body formed the dominant government of the country, a more focused article of the larger topic per WP:Summary style. (On a separate issues, no sources have been provided that support the change in topic of this article.) CMD (talk) 15:30, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Strong support - regardless of whether the new government is the same as the previous one, as they proclaim themselves to be, the state from 1999 to 2001 is of distinct historical interest in of itself. In most cases, this appears to be how situations like this are handled on Wikipedia (see French, Polish and Chinese/Taiwanese history for instance). Ichthyovenator (talk) 10:29, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Support - Absolutely agreed, just separate the article like how other countries articles separate their regime period into first government and second government, for example like first republic to second republic. Mhatopzz 10:42, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Comment - For the record, I do not support the current inter-twined layout of the Islamic Emirate with two sub-headings regarding 1996 and 2021 for each heading. I believe the headings should be separated for 1996 in the first half of the article and then the second half for 2021 comprising the same headings, sub-headings etc. Donenne (talk) 10:53, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Comment Absolutely agreed with Donenne, no new article should be made, there should be different sub-headings for 1996 and 2021. Salamun44 10:56, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Comment Yeah, different subheadings is the most sane way to handle it imo, it's what was done for Islamic State of Afghanistan --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 10:58, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose per arguments above. Dege31 (talk) 12:43, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose the 1996-2001 Emirate never formally dissolved or was disestablished and had indeed an insurgency phase LuanLoud 14:50, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose - previous opposing arguments Aleksandar The Macedonian (talk) 13:02, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Support - per separate french/polish/chinese/taiwanese history argument. The Republic of Afghanistan was the legitimate recognized government for 20 years, this is a new government which will probably be pretty different from the first Taliban. Err on the side of separation of the articles. - Abovfold (talk) 13:31, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Support - Totally agreed. The distinction between the two periods of Taliban rule is correct from a historical and encyclopedic point of view. It should also be emphasized how Wikipedia has rightly held up separate articles for the Taliban (as an Islamist movement and a military organization), the first State entity they set up after assuming control of Afghanistan (the 1996-2001 Emirate) and the period of insurgency following their fall from power in 2001.--Sid-Vicious (talk) 13:41, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Support - It doesn't matter what Taliban claimed.--Martianmister (talk) 14:12, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose The Taliban government existed as an unrecognized rump state constantly- that sort of continuity makes splitting it in 2 unwise, in my opinion. Zellfire999 (talk) 14:30, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Support - Article should be split between Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996–2001) for the pre-2001 Taliban government, Taliban insurgency for the period from December 2001 to August 2021 (as it currently exists), and Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan as a redirect to Afghanistan to reflect the current Taliban-controlled state. The Taliban was not internationally recognized by any country as the de jure or de facto government of Afghanistan during their 20 years as an insurgency, and should be listed as such regardless of what they say. ISIL is not recognized as having ever been the government of Syria despite at one point controlling more than half the country. PolarManne (talk) 14:44, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose for now and wait the sources. --Panam2014 (talk) 14:46, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Support it may have the same name (Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan), but we are dealing with two different states, with a 20 years period in the middle. Two pages would be useful.--Karma1998 (talk) 14:57, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose - The Kingdom of Greece existed 1832–1924 and again 1935–1973; we don't see separate articles of each. It is the same with the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, governed by the Taliban, existed 1996–2001 and again since 2021; it is not necessary for separate articles. HLE (talk) 15:06, 16 August 2021 (UTC) They DID exist non-stop since 1996. The 2001-2021 insurgency(which in hindsight is more of a civil war) was them, we just switched from their official name to their nickname. So we should have three sections, prs-civil war, civil war, post civil war, all in one article. 2604:3d09:1f80:ca00:bce7:4b48:c183:4ed1 (talk 15:21, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose - Just like how the Republics of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania between 1918-1940 and 1991-today use the same article since they are considered the same entity with a period of "Soviet occupation" (as opposed to other former post-Soviet states that draw their lineage from their Soviet Republics), so should this state. It is the same entity. --Havsjö (talk) 15:23, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose - The Kingdom's of England and Scotland have one article despite a gap in the middle which was rule by the Commonwealth and later Protectorate. As do many other countries as noted above - the same should be done here 2a00:23c8:6e97:1001:8c1e:9fc5:9b:9700 (talk) 15:26, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose - That split would be under the assumption that the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan ceased to exist throughout that 20 year gap, which it hasn't. The Islamic Emirate still controlled and administered significant swathes of territory in Afghanistan. For a split to be warranted the Islamic Emirate would have to have ceased to exist throughout 2001-2021, which it hasn't. Dabaqabad (talk) 15:39, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Support It just makes things easier.Angelgreat (talk) 16:12, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Wow man, the greatest reason I have heard on this talk page. Salamun44 talk 16:17, 16 August 2021 (UTC) FILIBUSTER my vote is to hold this vote open for a while. Clearly this article split needs to be done, and certainly it can be done by the end of the year. However, there is not enough known about the 2021 Emirate to justify a separate article today. It's possible that by the end of the week there will be enough information for a split, and it might take three. Let's just wait. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 16:28, 16 August 2021 (UTC) @力: It looks inevitable to me that an article will be created within a few hours and, when that will happen, we will have no policy-based reason to delete it or deny its notability. Maybe I'm wrong, though. JBchrch talk 16:40, 16 August 2021 (UTC) The policy based reason for the deletion of any such article is that it would be a WP:CFORK of Taliban and Afghanistan. CMD (talk) 01:53, 17 August 2021 (UTC) Weak support. per the precedent that successive regimes inside a single country are not presented in one continuous article per regime, but in several article that each document a specific temporal period JBchrch talk 16:36, 16 August 2021 (UTC) May I show you the exception to the precedent? See Islamic State of Afghanistan.Manabimasu (talk) 17:22, 16 August 2021 (UTC) @Manabimasu: Good point, move to weak support — still support because a 5-year gap is different than a 20-year gap in my view. JBchrch talk 17:31, 16 August 2021 (UTC) @JBchrch: See Bogd Khanate of Mongolia. Zoozaz1 talk 04:12, 17 August 2021 (UTC) Comment. Most of the people saying Support have pathetic arguments. User 47.33.186.77 and HyperEagle say support without even giving any reason. User Nice4What says Combining the two would confuse readers? Some user says "It's easier to read" without mentioning their username, talk page and UTC time. ArabMan719 also gives a bad argument sorry to say. Aleksandar The Macedonian says support without given any argument. Martianmister supports and says "It doesn't matter what Taliban claims". Taliban does not claim, Taliban now officially controlls the area. Angelgreat supports giving the great reason "It just makes things easier". Is this a joke? Most of the people Opposing actually have arguments and I think they are better arguments than the people who Support. Salamun44 talk 16:35, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Comment. Most of the people who have Opposed have much more sensible arguments than most of the people who have supported. I think we should currently oppose and wait for more news to arrive. Salamun44 talk 17:23, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose: As mentioned by Chessrat. Zakaria ښه راغلاست (talk) 17:40, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Support – They should have been separate in the first place as I mentioned in my comment in an earlier thread of this talk page. It'll never happen, but just say the Republic of China gained control of the mainland again. Would that really be an effective argument for not having separate articles? They may be the same thing in name, but they are separated by a significant length of time and history insofar as we consider them the effective government of Afghanistan. For the continuous existence of the Taliban government in exile, we already have the Taliban article. Master of Time (talk) 19:04, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Also, I should clarify that I believe the "current" period of Taliban rule should probably be covered in the regular Afghanistan article. There wasn't a separate Islamic Republic of Afghanistan article until that government collapsed. Master of Time (talk) 19:09, 16 August 2021 (UTC) I agree, if split Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996-2001) being separate) should redirect to Afghanistan as is standard. Gotitbro (talk) 20:08, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Weak support - Per arguments above. 186.158.132.97 (talk) 20:18, 16 August 2021 (UTC) 186.158.132.97 (talk) 10:39, 17 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose One continous entity and article is short enough. Splits can be made later if article is long enough Benica11 (talk) 20:15, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose - The new Taliban regime is a direct continuation of the one that existed from 1996 to 2001, no need for a new article which would be a waste of time considering it would have substanial duplicate information. This is like creating separate articles for the Ethopian Empire because Italy was in control for 5 years in between. Silly and no point. Ecpiandy (talk) 20:27, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Comment The most direct parallel would be The Islamic State of Afghanistan which is a single page but is very easy to understand. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 20:43, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose They are the same entity using the IEA title even when they were ousted Jibran1998 (talk) 20:45, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Strongly Support definitely different subjects, just as the article for countries like germany is split into one article per form of the country, this should be done here. between 2001 and 2021 there was a different form of country and this this two should be seperated aswell, even tho they claim to be the same. Norschweden (talk) 20:53, 16 August 2021 (UTC) They do not "claim" to be the same, they are the same. The Taliban has consistently held territory from 1996 to 2001 and from 2002 to the present day. The Islamic Emirate was the structure they used to govern those territories the entire time. Not being in full control of a country does not make the time you retake control into a new country. See the Islamic State of Afghanistan article for just that situation. The fact is that the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan has been in constant existence from 1996 to the present day. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 20:58, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Weak Support Merely splitting the article in two is not a statement by us that the first and second incarnations of the IEA are different entities, nor does it violate NPOV by denying claims to the constitutional legitimacy of the IEA during the 2001-2021 period. It merely enhances readability by recognizing two different historical epochs. Chetsford (talk) 00:19, 17 August 2021 (UTC)\ Comment If the article to be split, the articles should be clear to mention that they are the same entity and has existed more or less continuously from it's declaration in 1996. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 02:18, 17 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose− As the others have said, it’s one organization. Keep it simple— Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.228.78.12 (talk • contribs) 01:16, 17 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose I see the merits of both, but it makes sense to me that, despite a two-decades-long civil war, the Emirate is widely understood to be the same entity, and to delegitimate this understanding veers closer to partisanship than accepting it does. Garnet Moss (talk) 02:32, 17 August 2021 (UTC) Strongly Oppose Not doing this will cause more problems in the long term. The Emirate has existed nonstop since 1996, so why split it? In fact, some of the stuff from the Taliban page should be moved here. 208.85.212.65 (talk) 03:38, 17 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose I will add the Bogd Khanate of Mongolia as another example of where a state was dis-established and re-established and has the same Wikipedia article. It is the same regime, interrupted by 20 years of civil war. That being said, it may be better to wait to see how the situation develops rather than make an immediate judgement. Zoozaz1 talk 04:09, 17 August 2021 (UTC) We seperate every french republic. So we can seperate this regime. ChocFrosted (talk) 04:37, 17 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose Still same militant group. TolWol56 (talk) 05:33, 17 August 2021 (UTC) Support – Votes should never be about personal principles or opinions, but Wikipedia policy and the content of the article. Periods of rule are generally divided into their own articles to avoid one massive primary article. CentreLeftRight ✉ 05:53, 17 August 2021 (UTC) Comment The most direct parallel for this situation is the Islamic State of Afghanistan which had a several years break in the middle during the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan's 1st period of dominant control. The Islamic State of Afghanistan is a single page, and considering it was the same region, close to the same time, and similar circumstances there can be no better precedent to go by. Oppose The Islamic Emirate may have lost control of the majority of Afghanistan but they still controlled districts. They were fighting a civil war and they have now won. Also, the Taliban still continued to refer to themselves as the Islamic Emirate even after they lost control in 2001. They were obviously unrecognised but they still held control. The Islamic Emirate never ceased to exist rather it lost control of the majority of Afghanistan but they have now regained control in 2021. Hamza Ali Shah (talk) 10:50, 17 August 2021 (UTC) Call for consensus - The discussion to merge Taliban into Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan seems to be at a near consensus. Since merging the two pages requires this page not be split, and because a single page would match the closest analog to this situation (Islamic State of Afghanistan), I propose we call consensus against splitting the page. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 10:51, 17 August 2021 (UTC) I strongly oppose that change. That discussion has way fewer participants than this one and should be ignored if this one reaches a different conclusion. Master of Time (talk) 16:43, 17 August 2021 (UTC) Support. Maybe the same regime, but different backgrounds, different environment, and possibly different policies. The new IEA can be seen as a country in its new era, or simply a whole other country. --魔琴 (Zauber Violino) (talk) 08:03, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Support It only creates needless confusion to have one article be about both the present-day state and a previous iteration of the same regime. I think the Kingdom of Greece example actually supports this argument: if this new Islamic Emirate collapses soon just like the last one, then we can have the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan article look like the Kingdom of Greece article. The key difference is that the Kingdom of Greece isn't Greece but the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan is Afghanistan. The fact that this discussion is going on at the same time as the discussion to redirect the IEA article to Afghanistan kind of makes both discussions impossible.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 20:00, 20 August 2021 (UTC) Support Until just now the article was already about the 1996–2001 regime, and it should remain that way (and renamed). It's a topic deserving its own article. The case for continuity is rendered irrelevant by the fact that the article Taliban exists, so all oppose votes based on that should be disregarded. Avilich (talk) 13:34, 27 August 2021 (UTC) Multiple !votes by the same users The closer of this discussion should be aware that 2604:3d09:1f80:ca00:bce7:4b48:c183:4ed1 have !voted multiple times in the discussion above. JBchrch talk 17:11, 16 August 2021 (UTC) I’m just trying to evolve my case as I read more on things. Not only should these be kept together, but it is increasingly clear to be the 2001-2021 Taliban should also be included. The Taliban of the 2001-2021 Civil war called themselves the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, because they are the exact same organization that held Kabul from 1996-2001, and the exact same organization that took it back. They held land and maintained organizational continuity throughout this entire period. All three should share an article, whether it called called Taliban for wiki commons or Islamic Emirate for honesty, whether it’s separate from the Afghanistan page or not. Let us ditch the artificial distinction between the Civil War Taliban, and the Islamic Emirate. 2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:BCE7:4B48:C183:4ED1 (talk) 18:02, 16 August 2021 (UTC) I totally agree with 2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:BCE7:4B48:C183:4ED1. I think there should be quick response to this discussion, probably ending in no merge. Salamun44 talk 18:05, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Strongly Support Syed Aashir (talk) 07:37, 17 August 2021 (UTC) @Syed Aashir: Another user who "strongly supports" and gives no reason/argument. If you want to vote, give a reason. Salamun44 talk 09:31, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Solved discussion Oops, sorry I'm not completely used to how this works yet. I didn't realize this was a vote, I thought we were just debating the issue. I'll be careful not to bold the word more than once in the future. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 19:13, 16 August 2021 (UTC) I fixed it, so the error can be marked as closed now. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 19:52, 16 August 2021 (UTC) The Gentle Sleep Thank you for your cooperation. The clearest way to do this is to preface your subsequent comments with Comment in bold, so that the closer can identify that they are not standalone !votes. If you don't mind doing that, I will gladly close the discussion. JBchrch talk 21:03, 16 August 2021 (UTC) My previous comments are now labeled correctly, sorry for the confusion. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 21:22, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Thank you The Gentle Sleep. JBchrch talk 21:32, 16 August 2021 (UTC) The closer of this discussion should also be aware that HyperSheep, 47.33.186.77, Angelgreat gave no reason for supporting. Also I only voted two times, not many multiple times. It should also be noted that JBchrch has voted multiple times and calling others for voting multiple times. Salamun44 talk 17:40, 16 August 2021 (UTC) @Salamun44: I have !voted multiple times? I think you may be confused: I have subsequently changed my !vote but I have not !voted multiple times on this talk page or anywhere else. Also, what do you mean by calling others for voting multiple times? Are you implying that I have WP:CANVASSed?JBchrch talk 18:12, 16 August 2021 (UTC) @JBchrch: Sorry, by the way, I have also voted one time, and made some comments on other people's arguments. Salamun44 talk 18:19, 16 August 2021 (UTC) @Salamun44: I count three times where you have started a comment with "Oppose", which is generally understood to be a !vote, and something you can do only once in any given discussion. I invite you to replace the two last "Opposes" with "Comment" instead. JBchrch talk 18:23, 16 August 2021 (UTC) @JBchrch:, I have changed the terms. I previously didn't knew sorry. Salamun44 talk 18:26, 16 August 2021 (UTC) @Salamun44: Thank you very much. I will now remove your name from my comment above and collapse this discussion. JBchrch talk 18:28, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose - Just like Kingdom of Greece, there is no need to seperate the article just beacause it collapsed for a short time. Infact the islamic emirate still continued to exist as insurgency(until 2021). So I dont think we need to seperate it. PN27 (talk) 11:49, 17 August 2021 (UTC) Support - It may well transpire that at a later date the two periods can be merged (per Greece and other examples), but for now, for both practical and policy reasons, it makes more sense to write the article for the new regime BEFORE trying to see how it fits into the historical picture. The new regime may also be what the reader most wants to know at present - or at least a clear distinction between then and what is unfolding now. Proper sources will in time be available, but at present we are all guessing. Opposers are mistaken in several respects, in many cases they are confusing the 'State' with the 'ruling group'. The Nazi party is not the same thing as Nazi Germany, the British kingdom is not the same as the British monarchy, nor the current Royal House (family). Even if Taliban and IEofA retained the same name and personell throughout, an actual functioning-ish state with defined territory and power structure is not synonymous with an insurgency group holding minimal territory and very limited governmental functions. Opposers are also guessing a continuity in amything other than name, which none of us knows yet. Pincrete (talk) 12:31, 17 August 2021 (UTC) Comment - I would like to note that I concur with the sentiments expressed by the User above, Pincrete, as it accurately highlights that the practical reality as of now should distinguish the two periods of the Taliban's control as well as most assuredly separating the Taliban article from the Islamic Emirates. The Taliban can be seen closest to a "political party or organization" in terms of how the CPP is separate from China, or the All-India Muslim League or Indian National Congress is separated from the India or Pakistan articles, or the House of Hashem or House of Saud is distinct from the state ruled by it. Strongest support. The 1996–2001 state (i.e., a legal structure in place in a given geographic area) ceased to exist in 2001 and was replaced by a state called Islamic Republic of Afghanistan. Frankly, it is irrelevant that a bunch of former officials clang to the name and kept putting it, somewhere in their homes, on letterheads or their websites. It was just a fancy claim that had no recognition either locally or in international law. I have no doubts that the Emirate created now, by renaming the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, is a new entity, both internally and in international law, even if the underlying ideology may be similar and some of the officials may be the same. 2601:402:4280:15e0:5c43:f199:ff12:9a9d (talk) 21:19, 17 August 2021 (UTC) Also worth keeping in mind that while some countries (China, etc.) are likely to formally recognise the current government, this will not imply recognition for the 2001–2021 Taliban "state" or the 1996–2001 state. To put it simply, we should not conflate the three. — kashmīrī TALK 21:43, 17 August 2021 (UTC) This is not a very good argument. If someone were to recognize the Emirate in 1999, it would also not imply recognition for it as it existed in 1998. Smeagol 17 (talk) 08:06, 8 September 2021 (UTC) Facts and citations - The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan have continued to operate as a constant organization during the 20 year civil war , are flying the same flag over the capital , are using the same name , and continued to enforce their laws within their territory during the entire war. Due to the cited facts I've laid out: The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan has continued to operate as a government in exile and as such were long since established as a government. The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan currently controls the capital and is the dominant state in the region. Because the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan was previously a partially recognized state, it stands to reason that they are currently a partially recognized state unless there are reliable sources showing that nations including Saudi Arabia who are already on record as supporting the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan have ceased to recognize them. Afghanistan should redirect to Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, or Afghanistan should be set up as a regional page with the primary page being Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (similar to how China and Mainland China are set up.) --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 08:28, 18 August 2021 (UTC) I largely agree with the opening stated facts, but they lead me to an opposite conclusion. Firstly, this is conflating a 'state' with the political group who are in charge of it. More importantly it is ignoring practical considerations in order to make some point about continuity. Others cite the Greek Monarchy article as an template to be copied, but this is crucially different in two respects. Firstly history has now made clear how various incarnations of the monarchy 'mesh' together. Secondly, we now know how much RS material is available, and this factor as much as any sense of continuity, dictates the most efficient form being a single article. Of course we don't yet know how much material is going to be available for the new regime - but other practical considerations IMO dictate that it is going to be easier to write the new article without the burden of meshing with the old or interim set-ups. This material may well end up in a single article, but it is premature IMO and invites WP:OR to pre-decide a continuity. Pincrete (talk) 09:39, 18 August 2021 (UTC) The Gentle Sleep, I don't believe any editors are unaware that the Taliban rules the country. Respectfully, what you said about the Taliban currently being a partially recognized state is nonsensical. All members of the UN hitherto recognized the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan as the legitimate polity governing Afghanistan; the Taliban taking over doesn't mean that those who previously recognized the IEA automatically re-recognize them.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 21:28, 20 August 2021 (UTC) Proposed Alternative: Distinguish the "Taliban" (the organization / movement / militant-political party) with this title (the government) Redirect this title to "Afghanistan" or "Government of Afghanistan" as it is the current formal name of the regime; all governance, diplomatic relations etc., can go under either. This prevents content duplication. Use "Islamic Republic of Afghanistan" to describe the previous government 2001-2021 Use "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996–2001)" to describe the previous government 1996-2001 ruled by Taliban. Thoughts? NoNews! 14:02, 17 August 2021 (UTC) Support Proposed Alternative is the only viable solution. Afghanistan should an article about the current state. For the past Afghan states, the reader can read on Republic of Afghanistan (1973–1978), Democratic Republic of Afghanistan (1978–1992) or Islamic State of Afghanistan (1992–2002), Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996–2001) Transitional Islamic State of Afghanistan (2002–2004) or Islamic Republic of Afghanistan (2004–2021). Delasse (talk) 15:51, 17 August 2021 (UTC) Strongly Oppose The Emirate is and will be unrecognized and plays they're a puppet for the Taliban. This proposed alternative will never work. Angelgreat (talk) 14:10, 17 August 2021 (UTC) The Taliban is now in charge; there's no other governmental body in Afghanistan, nor any government in exile; currently all the information on the previous government have been moved to "Islamic Republic of Afghanistan". What are you going to write for the article on "Afghanistan", with regards to governance and foreign relations? Wouldn't it be repeating what's on this article? NoNews! 14:18, 17 August 2021 (UTC) No if the opposition holds then this article will merge with Afghanistan, so in the end it will be one article. Islamic Republic of Afghanistan article was once just all part of Afghanistan article. Its government's portions were removed from Afghanistan article because of the sources on control of the state.Manabimasu (talk) 16:48, 17 August 2021 (UTC) Support I agree, let's take ROC as an example, we all know that the current ROC in Formosa is direct continuation of ROC before 1949, and have the same constitution, even so, we have two separate articles for the same state. Mohammed 2976 (talk) 14:51, 17 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose This proposal wants to split the article as in the previous prosposal. Because of the split of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan into two separate articles. Even if the government had ended control in 2001, we don't know if such government was in exile till now. See this source was in 2013. Manabimasu (talk) 16:44, 17 August 2021 (UTC) Comment Taiwan ceased to be a useful comparison when the Taliban won. A better comparison would be if the ROC suddenly took back the mainland in 1970. We’d probably treat it as one entity just as the US had. Kinda silly to have one article for a country that has had it's establishment declared twice. The Taliban themselves are trying to open a new page and avoid the mistakes of the 1996-2001 administration. Cedwoodint (talk) 18:40, 17 August 2021 (UTC) Strongly Oppose - The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan have continued to operate as a constant organization during the 20 year civil war , are flying the same flag over the capital , are using the same name , and continued to enforce their laws within their territory during the entire war. Due to the cited facts I've laid out: The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan has continued to operate as a government in exile and as such were long since established as a government. The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan currently controls the capital and is the dominant state in the region. Because the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan was previously a partially recognized state, it stands to reason that they are currently a partially recognized state unless there are reliable sources showing that nations including Saudi Arabia who are already on record as supporting the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan have ceased to recognize them. Afghanistan should redirect to Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, or Afghanistan should be set up as a regional page with the primary page being Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (similar to how China and Mainland China are set up.) The Gentle Sleep (talk) 08:26, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Support proposal with the addition that an article should be created for the insurgent state between 2001 and 2021, where the rebel governance of the Taliban can be placed. BTW, The Gentle Sleep continues to ignore the multiple differences between the pre-2001 emirate, insurgent emirate, and current emirate. Applodion (talk) 10:12, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Clarification of my position - There are obviously differences in the nature of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan at various points in it's existence, including differences in the material conditions they faced. This is frequently handled by having subsections devoted to the notable periods of a country's rule. I'm also aware that the Taliban is the political movement, what I have been arguing for (perhaps poorly) is that the page for the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan should contain any information regarding actions taken by the Taliban as the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan while they operated as a government in exile. I'm not saying that Taliban needs to be entirely merged and deleted, just that we should support the perspectives of all parties in the interest of a neutral point of view. There may be plenty of sources stating that the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan was not a government in exile, however we need to consider the political landscape surrounding the Taliban and acknowledge that most sources on this issue have an anti-IEA bias. It is my position that we should also refer to their government by their chosen name where possible, because doing otherwise if nothing else creates the appearance of bias. I hope that clears up our misunderstanding. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 15:01, 18 August 2021 (UTC) WP:COMMONNAME would seem to suggest that, what you call the "government in exile" should actually be in the article 'Taliban', as should any material treating them as a political organisation (akin to a political party). Whatever they have called themselves, they have never been referred to as IE of A while they have been 'underground', neither officially nor in MSM. It would make more sense for 'Emirate' articles to be about actual functioning regimes, ie before and after US involvement. We don't ordinarily or systematically refer to political groups by the name of their own choosing, besides, there is nothing inherently perjorative about 'Taliban' as a name in English. Pincrete (talk) 15:56, 18 August 2021 (UTC) An entity is always the highest authority in regard to their own name. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 03:59, 19 August 2021 (UTC) An entity is always the highest authority in regard to their own name. - sorry but that's pure BOLLOCKS! You cite Deadnaming, a term specifically coined to describe a phenomenon relating to trans people (are the Taliban transsexuals?) - you invent a quote not in that article or any WP policy - and you ignore WP naming policy. WP policy is largely WP:COMMONNAME, that is we use the terms most likely to be used by readers and sources. We of course usually record 'own-names', but we give them almost zero authority beyond that. I expect you refer to one Mediterranean nation as "Greece" and one N.European one as "Germany" - both names given to those places and peoples by their colonists, the Romans, roughly 2000 years ago, but which neither people has ever used for themselves. The people of the Netherlands have never called themselves 'Dutch'. Also, I expect you use words like Nazis to describe Hitler's party and 'Puritans' to describe early New England settlers. Neither of these were ever used by the people themselves and both were originally perjoratives. There are thousands of such examples and so long as the terms we use are not derogatory (or are noted as being so if more apt) - we are not obliged to call people what they wish to be called, even less so to misuse that info to construct a false 'continuity' narrative. Pincrete (talk) 08:30, 20 August 2021 (UTC) This discussion is was closed and had a "do not edit" label attached. transsexual only applies to those who wish to transition via surgery, you probably meant transgender. Deadnaming is an example which demonstrates the commonly understood right of an entity to be referred to by their chosen name, and that intentionally referring to them by a name they do not accept is an attempt to actively deligitimize their identity, which is not a neutral point of view. You could argue that using a chosen name should only be done for those worthy of respect/ who possess sufficient moral character, but this is widely considered a socially toxic position to take.The Gentle Sleep (talk) 09:21, 20 August 2021 (UTC) You're correct, I meant transgender. You may argue that using a chosen name should only be done for those worthy of respect/ who possess sufficient moral character, but this is widely considered a socially toxic position to take. I argue no such thing, I argue that WP uses the name and usage most commonly used by readers and sources, we merely note 'own-name' - whether that be Greece, Taliban, Puritans or whatever. East Germany, not Deutsch Democratic Republic. Maligninging another editor by misrepresenting their words, while inventing policy, is not a very clever thing to do. the commonly understood right of an entity to be referred to by their chosen name There is no such "commonly understood right" either in the real world nor on WP. Avoiding derogatory terms for groups (whenever practical) is not synonymous with us adopting 'own names'. Pincrete (talk) 09:45, 20 August 2021 (UTC) … ps the discussion is open. Pincrete (talk) 09:51, 20 August 2021 (UTC) I didn't intend to imply that you were arguing that point, I meant that you could. I apologize for the misunderstanding, it was a difficult statement to phrase. Perhaps "right" is too strong of a word, however it is a commonly (but not universally) understood that an entity should be addressed in their preferred manor when their preference is known, and that intentionally addressing an entity in a way known to be undesired is an attempt to delegitimize their identity, which is not neutral. An example for this would be Inuit, as that is not the common name for the group which most people are familiar with. Many people also don't consider the alternative name for Inuits to be offensive, but Inuits would certainly consider it offensive to be called by the commonly known name. My arguments on this are well into the realm of philosophy, but there are several aspects of the current situation in Afghanistan which are philosophically fascinating. I do want to once again apologize, I genuinely didn't intend my previous response to be a personal attack, this is meant to be a friendly if somewhat heated discussion, and personal attacks are never acceptable in discussions of this nature. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 11:17, 20 August 2021 (UTC) I'd also like to add that I've been enjoying arguing with you, you're clever and make excellent arguments ^_^ The Gentle Sleep (talk) 11:22, 20 August 2021 (UTC) It seems to me the insurgency section of this article has proven there is no gap. Which has always been the case, a continuous entity calling itself the Islamic Emirate since 1996. The supposed ‘gap’ was the entire reason we tried to split this (despite the main Afghanistan page deciding to put it all together) and with the gap proven false I see no reason to continue this. 2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:E86A:9CDF:6E17:F80 (talk) 17:02, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Proposal: I think we should make an article about the pre-2001 IEA, keep the Taliban article as it is and create a post-2021 IEA article and have subsections on this article page with references to the respective articles and a summarization. BnC78 (talk) 16:00, 20 August 2021 (UTC) Support: Two different entities. If we don't split, it will confuse some readers. I would merge the current emirate with Afghanistan. Beshogur (talk) 11:42, 29 August 2021 (UTC) References The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

who changed the anthem portion?

See also: § Anthem, and § The_Anthem_Question

i thought it was funny that it said music was outlawed and so there was no anthem. we should change it back! -camdoodlebop Camdoodlebop (talk) 23:46, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Wait for something related and reliable to develop. Try not to escalate in-Wiki stuff without understanding it. 2603:9000:A703:1EFD:1CEC:C584:46FD:C30 (talk) 23:55, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Has anyone confirmed that the ban on music still stands? It has been 20 years since their government was internationally recognized so their policies may have changed. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 04:16, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

"their policies might have changed" Doubt that Aleksandar The Macedonian (talk) 13:05, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Their definition of music is also debatable, since it may only apply to instruments. There is a good bit of disagreement on this matter https://www.dar-alifta.org/Foreign/ViewFatwa.aspx?ID=4866

I am a Muslim myself, and have read many fatwas explaining that music is prohibited by consensus of scholars , and I can say for sure and 100% certainty that what is meant by music is instruments and too similar intentionally created sounds like digital musical sounds, it has nothing to do with songs, anthems like any hymn can be sung without music, and I've seen videos titled taliban nasheed, so saying there is no anthem because of the ban on music is inaccurate, as for the "funny" part, this is an encyclopedia, keeping misinformation because funny is not here AbdurRahman AbdulMoneim Userd898 08:05, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

As stated above, there are IEA/ Taliban videos with people singing nasheeds, so they don't seem to consider them haram --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 11:37, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

References

RL as to the official nasheed may be difficult to establish due to regulations around "extremist materials" online, and the nature of primary sources in regard to the IEA prior to August 15th. This is one of the main difficulties with finding RL in regard to the IEA in general, since anything that isn't through an anti-IEA lens before this point could have been seen as sympathetic towards terrorists in the west. The best case scenario would be them putting out a video to announce an official nasheed, since anything they release now is government communication and a reliable source. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 01:30, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Prime Minister missing

Mohammad Rabbani and Abdul Kabir are not being linked from the article as Prime Minister no longer exists. How to resolve?Manabimasu (talk) 05:59, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Why? Why do you them to be in the article? no offense BTW but i dont think they should be their.

The Anthem Question

See also: § Anthem, § who changed the anthem portion?, and This is the Home of the Brave

Is it not redundant to specify that the Islamic Emirate has no anthem. Surly this can be inferred through the lack of an anthem in the info box.--Kappasi (talk) 08:51, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

they had a national anthem it's just that it was sung in nasheed and that the government was not recognized so the anthem either I invite you to go to the site Mundigak.com/en/ you will have the info. AfghansPashtun (talk) 11:47, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

https://mundigak.com/en/2019/04/09/5059/ AfghansPashtun (talk) 11:52, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

The interpretation of the ban on music is debated within Islam, as is the ban itself. https://www.dar-alifta.org/Foreign/ViewFatwa.aspx?ID=4866 --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 20:10, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

No, the interpretation of the ban on music is not debated, this is probably a translation problem, fatwas in Arabic not only fully detail what they mean by music but they also refer to them as ma'azif which means instruments (and by extention digital music), the ban is on the instrumental and similar intentional sounds and not related to songs, songs are another issue seperate from music and the reason some songs are banned is because of what is said in it not because it's a song, or a third issue which is acts accompanying singing like parties with drinks and women and things, these are 3 seperate issues, they just get confused because 90%+ of songs today have music and are in a lot of times have things said that are banned in Islam. AbdurRahman AbdulMoneim Userd898 08:10, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

So what we need to answer the anthem question is a RL for what the official nasheed is. This may be difficult to establish due to regulations around "extremist materials" online, and the nature of primary sources in regard to the IEA prior to August 15th. This is one of the main difficulties with finding RL in regard to the IEA in general, since anything that isn't through an anti-IEA lens before this point could have been seen as sympathetic towards terrorists in the west. The best case scenario would be them putting out a video to announce an official nasheed, since anything they release now is government communication and a reliable source. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 01:32, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Heaps of garbage?

See also: fr:Wikipédia:Le Bistro/16 août 2021 § Afghanistan

It seems someone has greatly cocked up the article in the last 24 or so hours. Primarily, is this an article about a country or about one of governments of Afghanistan? The lead section initially suggests that this is about a period in Afghanistan's history when IEA was its official name, but then the article begins to use "Emirate" as a name of a certain political faction (who at times controlled the country).

Additionally, the article is rife with speculation and outright OR, not least because as of this writing, the new government (whatever its official name) has not passed any laws changing the official name of Afghanistan.

I suggest restoring the article to the following revision: [2] All proposed changes should be discussed on Talk first. — kashmīrī ^TALK 10:55, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

The IEA is the official name of the state, the west referred to their military as "the Taliban" but they have always continued to refer to themselves as the IEA all the way back to the early 90's. This isn't a new government, the regime which held majority control prior to the invasion simply regained control of the territory occupied by the IR. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 11:25, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

This doesn't work this way. They may refer to their own group as they wish, but if they want to ensure legal continuity of the state, they must issue a decree that changes the official name of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan for all legal purposes.

I haven't seen any source that would confirm that such a change has legally taken place. As such, the bulk of the recent changes in this Wikipedia article are only unconfirmed speculation and OR. — kashmīrī ^TALK 11:44, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

​ It is an unrecognized state so “legality” is up for recognition. See Afghanistan as that page has not changed. This page is about the IEA. Manabimasu (talk) 13:35, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

One, you linked to a disambuguation page. Two, please do not conflate – the state in case of present-day Afghanistan is widely recognised (unlike, say, Nagorno-Karabakh or Kosovo); what is not recognised is the Taliban government. — kashmīrī ^TALK 14:13, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Agree with Kashmiri unless solid sources are provided. JBchrch talk 16:48, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm afraid history doesn't follow such straight lines, Kashmiri. Consider the analogous 9 August 1944 decree of the French Republic [3]. There was no decree "changing the name." The legal position of Free France was that the Third Republic had perfect continuity and the French State was simply illegitimate. 73.71.251.64 (talk) 17:02, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Possibly. But French Republic aside, the question is how the current state of Afghanistan is now called. I have now found two sources that seem to confirm that the Taliban indeed announced a new name for Afghanistan earlier today.[4]

Once confirmed in more sources, a new article could be started (or, less preferably, the current one expanded) to cover the newest period in Afghanistan's history.

By the way, it is irrelevant IMO that the Talivban may have called themselves, an "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan". They were not a state but a militant group. Now, starting today, the term again denotes a state. — kashmīrī ^TALK 17:16, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

This source is also referring to the two as a single state which share a name, this supports my position. Islamic_State_of_Afghanistan is considered a single state regardless of the fact that the IEA held majority control from 1996 to 2001. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 20:21, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Indeed, a lot of the recent edits are straight up WP:OR with no-basis in fact. People have already revived the Northern Alliance, ended the conflict, ended the war, changed logos, mottos and what not without official declaration or reportage whatsoever. Not understanding that this isn't a news website we can wait as an encyclopedia, no need to rush. I had to categorically deny people I know from relying on WP for the time being on anything Afghanistan related (as if the situation isn't confusing enough as is). Gotitbro (talk) 20:14, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

I'll also add a citation here showing that the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan has continued to operate as that entity and never accepted the unofficial name assigned to them by the west. — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Gentle Sleep (talk • contribs) 22:18, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Twisting the facts and misreading the sources? The Taliban have operated for 20+ years. However, 'IEA denoted Afghanistan only in 1996-2004 and then from 2021. It was not a name for the country between these periods, when the country was called "Islamic Republic of Afghanistan". — kashmīrī ^TALK 09:35, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

• By your logic the Islamic State of Afghanistan was not a single government as that page states, you're basically arguing that the concept of government in exile doesn't exist.
• I would also urge you to familiarize yourself with Wikipedia:Assume good faith --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 05:21, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

References

This is becoming redundant to Afghanistan. We do not need two articles on the state... ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:17, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

This page isn't redundant as there are calls to redirect the Afghanistan page here and this page has the most detailed information about the current dominant power in the region. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 01:35, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Of course a concept of government in exile exists, (though can you be in exile inside your own country?). I imagine that every World War II government in exile, every exiled monarch of that time and every deposed monarch/prince/duke etc throughout history has continued to use his 'official' name whenever possible. It implies legitimacy and it would be fairly extraordinary if the Taliban had chosen a title that endorsed claims to be non-legitimate or non-functional. However we are not obliged to 'humour' this tendency and even less obliged to conclude a continuity of rule which simply never existed. Based on an implied claim of a continuous right to rule?

The source is explicit "Taliban changes Afghanistan’s name to ‘Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan’" - ie the political group (who have been largely continuous) are "the Taliban", the long-term country name is "Afghanistan" and has remained so under many regimes, the current regime has adopted the same official name as the pre-invasion regime, ie ‘Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan’. Apart from being confusing, it would be NPOV to confer legitimacy on Taliban claims. Of course we need not do the opposite either, but for around 15 years "‘Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan" existed only as a name used by a deposed group, but never taken up by WP:RS. Pincrete (talk) 12:40, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

The Islamic State of Afghanistan is noted to have been a government in exile in the same region, around the same time, and in fact ruled both before and after the 1st reign of the Islamic Emirate. All I can say in regard to the source's phrasing is: well they would wouldn't they. It would be strange for western sources who do not wish to be seen as legitimizing the Islamic Emirate to use phrasing which acknowledges the government in exile. This is why we must accept the bias of sources and use critical thinking to separate objective fact from opinion and framing. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 09:36, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

1996-2001 IEA Diplomatic relations with the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria.

On the Wikipedia page for the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria it says “Diplomatic relations with Ichkeria were also established by the partially recognized Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan under the Taliban government on 16 January 2000. This recognition ceased with the fall of the Taliban in 2001.” This isn’t mentioned on the IEA article so was the IEA actually recognized by Ichkeria? (talk) 03:19, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Criticisms Section: Human Rights Abuses and Other Abuses

The following points are missing from the article and a section should be created for these

• Taliban is an international terrorist organisation according to international law
• Women rights abuses: compulsory hijab, education prevention, mixing prevention
• Religious discrimination: liberal Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, and Shias of Afghanistan
• Ethnic genocide: Hazaras
• Ethnic persecuation: Tajiks
• Anti-pashtun culture: prevention of Attan dance, prevention of Jirga system, destruction of the tribal society and Pashtunwali
• Destruction of Antiquities: the Kanishka statue
• Murder and persecution of LGBTQ individuals
• Religious compulsion: compulsory beards, etc
• Drug Trafficking: Opium trade
• Capital Punishment: whipping of non-martial sex, stonings
• Foreign interference: Pakistan army involvement

PashtunNationalist (talk) 05:01, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

• The Afghan Taliban and Pakistani Taliban are separate entities with different classifications.
• The points relating to women are already included in the "Human Rights" section.
• Many of the other aspects should be added if not already included, probably under "Human Rights" written as a contrast to current official policy.
• The current reign has expressed a commitment to not repeat the atrocities of the past during the current reign.
• It is critical to include information about past crimes against humanity while also being careful not to imply that these crimes have continued under the current reign without proper citations to support that. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 05:24, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
• Also opium trade isn't unique to the Islamic Emirate, it's existed for centuries in the region.The Gentle Sleep (talk) 10:51, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

@PashtunNationalist and The Gentle Sleep: Some of these already have separate articles and are (or should be) appropriately linked, including:

• Treatment of women by the Taliban - organised by sub-theme, with no historical division
• War crimes by the Taliban - mainly organised by historical epoch

However, the reality is that many of the human rights violations in Afghanistan are not attributed to the Taliban alone, so editors have made less efforts to try to split up other articles based on attribution; examples:

• Persecution of Hazara people (which covers both Hazaras in Afghanistan and Pakistan)
• LGBT rights in Afghanistan (which currently has only one small section about the Taliban)
• Capital punishment in Afghanistan (mostly covers the Islamic Republic, except for a comment in the lead about the first Taliban government)

Feel free to add content based on reliable sources: much is missing from the currently existing related articles. Boud (talk) 00:01, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 20 August 2021

On July 8, American President Joe Biden stated that: "The likelihood there’s going to be the Taliban overrunning everything and owning the whole country is highly unlikely."

Not sure what this image on the right adds to the unbiased discussion of the current state of Afghanistan's government. It looks more like a bad faith opinion at best and a political quip at worst. What does it add besides the supposed 'irony' of the president's comment on the expected future of the war versus the actual outcome of the recent battles? I believe that it should be removed. 89.73.228.185 (talk) 11:58, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

 Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:08, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

References

Emirate Human rights and humanitarian aid

I propose making a section devoted to Human rights in the Islamic emirate, both historically and presently, to include both failures to uphold human dignity as well as recent promises of supporting foreign journalists and workers, and of Women having access to education, work, and government positions, as well as promises to have a government inclusive of marginalized ethnic groups, and lastly to note it's recent stated intention of seeking humanitarian aid in cooperation with the U.N Ninjamonk33 (talk) 18:53, 17 August 2021 (UTC)Ninjamonk33

Sources: 1) https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/8/17/taliban-says-will-respect-womens-rights-press-freedom 2) https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/8/17/taliban-agreed-to-allow-safe-passage-to-airport-us-says 3) https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/8/17/evacuation-flights-resume-as-biden-defends-afghanistan-pullout 4) https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/taliban-spokesman-says-war-is-over-afghanistan-al-jazeera-2021-08-15/ 5) https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/taliban-spokesman-says-war-is-over-afghanistan-al-jazeera-2021-08-15/ 6) https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/8/16/how-the-world-reacted-to-taliban-takeover-of-kabul 7) https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2021/8/16/as-the-taliban-seized-cities-they-sent-women-packing-home 8) https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/8/17/macron-says-afghanistan-must-not-become-sanctuary-of-terrorism ( source on French xenophobia towards Afghan asylum seekers and migrants that should help the international response section ) 9) https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/17/asia/afghanistan-taliban-withdrawal-tuesday-intl/index.html ( good source on inconsistency on human rights within the Emirate ) Ninjamonk33 (talk) 21:20, 17 August 2021 (UTC)Ninjamonk33

There are two Emirates: the 1996–2001 Emirate and the Emirate that was announced a few days ago. I agree that each deserves a section on human rights, but maybe it would be better to have the topic dealt with in dedicated articles, akin to Human rights abuses in Jammu and Kashmir? — kashmīrī ^TALK 21:27, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm honestly not convinced of this,it appears to be the same Emirate, however the idea of a human rights page might be helpful, and also some more sources:

1) https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/south-asia/afghanistans-sikh-and-hindu-communities-assured-safety-by-taliban/articleshow/85368449.cms 2) https://religionnews.com/2021/08/17/christian-family-in-afghanistan-appeals-to-pope-to-help-them-flee-persecution/ 3) https://www.ncregister.com/news/catholic-charity-concerned-for-christians-in-kabul-as-taliban-seize-hold Ninjamonk33 (talk) 22:09, 17 August 2021 (UTC)Ninjamonk33

It's definitely a different Emirate now vs, say, the "emirate" a year ago. — kashmīrī ^TALK 22:15, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

• Thank you for the hard work gathering all these sources. I'll thumb through them to see if I can put together a section for previous human rights abuses under "History"
• I added a section covering the current leadership's official policy in regard to women's rights under "Governance"
• If someone else gets to the historical abuses before me that's great, otherwise I should be able to take care of it in a bit. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 09:40, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Name of Country is “Islamic Republic of Afghanistan”

Name of Country is “Islamic Republic of Afghanistan”

The color of the Flag is Black, Red and Green. Bilalsaifi701 (talk) 03:23, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

The IRA is a former government and it has its own article https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Republic_of_Afghanistan

The flag of the IRA is currently flown nowhere in the country. BakedGoods357 (talk) 03:51, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

The former Islamic Republic of Afghanistan has it's own page already, this page refers to the currently dominant Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, who have regained power after their time as a government in exile. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 07:15, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Government Structure and Draft Constitution

Aren't they now an Interim government? they're currently waiting for the constitution and peace agreements Mhatopzz (talk) 03:42, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

An interim government that no one has recognized. The unrecognized status takes precedence over the interim status, at least until something succeeds that interim. BSMRD (talk) 03:44, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

The Islamic Emirate was partially recognized, and I've seen no reliable sources showing that countries such as Saudi Arabia who have recognized them in the past ever ceased doing so. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 07:13, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

@Mhatopzz: Does a government need a constitution? See Saudi Arabia until 1992.Manabimasu (talk) 13:21, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

I mean, they're not an Absolute monarchy and they'll appoint a President, OFC they need a constitution Mhatopzz (talk) 13:55, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Not all governments are constitutional governments, but they have expressed interest in having a constitution, and perhaps even reworking the one used by the Islamic Republic. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 03:51, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Proposal to merge

Extended content

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. I propose that the Afghanistan should be be merged into Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. I propose that the relevant portions of Afghanistan be merged into Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. Bringing over information about the culture of the region and it's history will help give context to the current Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. Information about the Taliban has already been merged, so adding further context here makes logical sense. This will also make things simpler later if Afghanistan ends up becoming a redirect or a disambiguation page. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 04:03, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Comment Why are you merging Afghanistan into the IEA? IMO, it should be the other way around if we're recognizing the IEA as the government. Afghanistan is still Afghanistan, it's just ruled by a different government now. (JayPlaysStuff | talk to me | What I've been up to) 23:04, 22 August 2021 (UTC) Facts and citations - The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan have continued to operate as a constant organization during the 20 year civil war , are flying the same flag over the capital , are using the same name , and continued to enforce their laws within their territory during the entire war. Due to the cited facts I've laid out: The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan has continued to operate as a government in exile and as such were long since established as a government. The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan currently controls the capital and is the dominant state in the region. Because the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan was previously a partially recognized state, it stands to reason that they are currently a partially recognized state unless there are reliable sources showing that nations including Saudi Arabia who are already on record as supporting the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan have ceased to recognize them. Afghanistan should redirect to Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, or Afghanistan should be set up as a regional page with the primary page being Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (similar to how China and Mainland China are set up.) The Gentle Sleep (talk) 06:06, 18 August 2021 (UTC) References @The Gentle Sleep: Clarification needed: are you advocating for "Afghanistan" to be redirected into "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan"? If so you might want to reverse the merge templates on the two articles as they currently show the opposite, and that is misleading. What it appears here is that many users are voicing "Support" for a redirect in the opposite direction. It does seem so, corrected. NoNews! 15:10, 18 August 2021 (UTC) I think we should merge but also redirect to this page. It’s clear the situation in the country isn’t going to change much at this point so I think it would be for the better. BakedGoods357 (talk) 04:14, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Strong Support for merging and redirect, but I would still support just bringing relevant information over for now if we can't get consensus on a redirect. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 04:17, 18 August 2021 (UTC) This is a non-starter. Afghanistan is the main article for this topic. It is not going to be deleted or redirected. Other articles, such as this one, are WP:SUMMARYSTYLE expansions on subtopics of the main Afghanistan topic. CMD (talk) 04:22, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose Just as the previous government had a separate page from the country, this government should have a separate page from the country. Zoozaz1 talk 04:23, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Correction - The Islamic Republic of Afghanistan didn't have a seperate page until it collapsed on the 15th. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 04:28, 18 August 2021 (UTC) In that case, I still think it is too early to make a decision on this. We have to see how the situation unfolds. Zoozaz1 talk 18:52, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Weak Oppose The IRA continues to exercise practical sovereignty over 0.8% of the territory of Afghanistan, has a partially recognized legal claim to the other 99.2% of the territory, and appears to be in continued control of all of Afghanistan's embassies and foreign missions. The situation is too fluid at this point. I'd reconsider changing to support in a week or so. Chetsford (talk) 04:48, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Support When the Islamic Republic was still in control of the country, it was merged with the Afghanistan article, even as the Islamic Emirate continued as a rival government that controlled a larger amount of territory and population than the Islamic Republic does today. The Islamic Republic's continuation as a rump state does not negate the fact that Afghanistan is now the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 06:00, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Strongly Support The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan should be merged and redirected to Afghanistan as the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan was the part and redirected to Afghanistan before its collapse. Syed Aashir (talk) 07:55, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Support at this point, this is the logical thing to do. The new government is getting support and recognition, and it will take some days till it gets normalized. We don't even know when there'll be a new constitution (or if there will ever be one), but the flag, government and administration of the State is under control of the Taliban. -Theklan (talk) 08:22, 18 August 2021 (UTC) So you mean you oppose as your saying "Afghanistan should be the name of the main county article ?Think many confused about proposal.--Moxy- 18:41, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Strong Support We need to acknowledge reality here, the IEA are in control of 99% of the territory of Afghanistan, in my view people visiting the wiki in the future want to know the upfront on the ground facts just like on any other country article, not have to dig for them because we're not WP:BOLD enough to accept the reality on the ground. Just as we showed the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan on the Afghanistan page until their complete collapse after the fall of Kabul, we should now show the new regime. A few frequent counterpoints and my responses: The UN hasn't recognised the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan We rely on reliable sources to establish the facts: multiple, independent reliable sources[[5]] [[6]] [[7]] have established that the Taliban are in total control of and are the new government of Afghanistan, whether the international community likes it or not. If we relied on the United Nations as an oracle for what countries exist, we wouldn't mention the Republic of China on Taiwan. We need to wait for the dust to settle more You don't need to be a weatherman to see which way the wind blows, there is now effectively no reasonable prospect of the Taliban/IEA being defeated, with just a single holdout in the north, the idea that because of this we should refuse to recognise the fact that 99% of the territory of Afghanistan is under the control of the IEA seems far-fetched to me, if we refused to recognise governments the moment there was a single minor insurgency against them there would be a huge amount of disputed territories on Wikipedia. The Taliban haven't announced an Islamic Emirate The Taliban never stopped calling themselves the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan once defeated during the US Invasion, so they're not announcing one because they view themselves as a continuation of their previous government which they believe didn't end, and was simply in a state of civil war from 2001 to 2021. IntUnderflow (talk) 10:07, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose although I think my input will have no effect. Great Mercian (talk) 10:47, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Support per above -- PaleoMatt (talk) 10:50, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose Afghanistan is the main article....the proposal should be the reverse.....why change the common name? Moxy- 10:58, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Support The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan should be merged and redirected to Afghanistan. Reasons: - Right now the de facto Afghan state is the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. And right now, Afghanistan lacks a de jure goverment. The Islamic Republic was the de jure Afghan state, but it no longer exists. Even if they constitute a goverment in exile, it will be that, a government in exile, no more no less. - Even if a small area is controled by a resistance against the Islamic Emirate (in the Panjshir valley), it should also be noted that in the past the Taliban have controlled large areas of the country, and the Taliban flag was not included and the IR flag was not removed until the fall of Kabul and the dissolution of the Islamic Republic. - In additions, we should take into account that the Wikidata item corresponding to the Islamic Emirate is being used by other Wikipedias in other languages referring to the 1996-2001 Islamic Emirate since the original item was created for it. The solution is to create another item or, more easily, merge the article with the Afghanistan article as suggested here. - If we don't do this with Afghanistan, we could also create article from a geographical point of view for other countries. Examples: Austria & Republic of Austria; Germany & Federal Republic of Germany; Kosovo & Republic of Kosovo. That only makes sense in divided countries like Korea where there are 2 active governments representing two living republics. The Islamic Republic of Afghanistan is an historic state now. Salvabl (talk) 12:01, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Correct but your support is for the opposite of your position.Moxy- 18:16, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Yes, you're right. Salvabl (talk) 19:38, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Strong oppose this is effectively trying to write the first draft of history rather than simply record RS. The opening source in "Facts and citations", supposedly establishing the need for these drastic changes is from a small number of, brief, ambiguous articles. Many of the above arguments by IntUnderflow are effectively advocating WP:OR - we rely on RS, not probability, nor our own interpretation. There is no rush nor advantage to being first "off the blocks" and some of these proposals may conflict with the (still ongoing and still disputed) RfC above. No one doubts that IRA are largely in control of the country at present, but that does not suddenly and automatically make them and the country synonymous - certainly not YET. It could well be the case that country and regime remain distinct articles, it is not unusual to do so, but now is not the time to make drastic CRYSTALBALLy changes. Pincrete (talk) 12:13, 18 August 2021 (UTC) You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows. Numerous substantive arguments have been made with reliable sources showing who hold overwhelming control of the region. As IntUnderflow so eloquently put it: "we need to acknowledge reality here." The Gentle Sleep (talk) 12:22, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Weatherman is an obscure unfinished essay which attempts to justify speculation - sky is blue to which it links is a much abused essay. Neither overrides the core policies of WP:V nor the obligation to avoid SYNTH. We can all make intelligent guesses about what is probably going to happen in Kabul now, but that is precisely what they are - guesses- and there are tons of news sources with professional 'pundits' who already have that job covered, rolling speculation. It is inherently unencyclopaedic IMO for us to do so. To employ the metaphor, you may not need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows, but you need many things (including a little time) to know on whom, where and in what state all the things that wind picks up ACTUALLY land. Pincrete (talk) 12:41, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose Strongly - I feel that the page for Afghanistan (the land region) shouldn't be merged with & redirected to the page for their Current Government just after The Present Day War In Afghanistan or Islamic Emirate Leaders. For the same reason that others have said in this talk page, countries originating from far in the past can still be the same for a long time even if the leaders Change-Over/Power is transferred one way or another. Also due to the comparison made in said example: France (country) and the French Fifth Republic (Political Entity) For us to reference a country by its government leaders would seem improper & feel the same about this merge idea with its first bullet point. I would propose (or counter-propose) this merge to happen in the opposite direction and into the page named Afghanistan (No Rename) with current leadership and events along with the history of the country having their section. Daseiin (talk) 03:51, 21 August 2021 (UTC) Additional Comment: Would you need to change the page or make a new one every-time the governing power changes? Wouldn't the country still exist after everytime? There has been dialogue shared & negotiations on a peaceful transfer of power between the two parties involved with the incumbent government declaring its willingness to peacefully do so, it seems a page For the governance & For the country/state as separate things is reasonable and should be split. Daseiin (talk) 04:13, 21 August 2021 (UTC) Support The IEA has de-facto sovereignty over 99% of the country, as of current, and doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Plus having several articles about the territory of Afghanistan is going to get confusing. One for the territory of Afghanistan and another for it's government seems a tad silly even if they aren't recognised. The Republic is gone and the old govt are in exile, theres no way that regime can still be considered sovereign over the territory of Afghanistan. It looks like the IEA is there to stay, regardless of it's recognition.ThePaganUK (talk) 12:35, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Support As other users have noted, the Islamic Emirate has perpetual control over Afghanistan and wikipedia should serve to recognize the de facto ground reality, regardless of recognition. Oppose, two different entities. Beshogur (talk) 14:20, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Strong Oppose Political entities live and die, but the country will survive for a long time in human history. Both articles should remain separate. See example: France (country) and the French Fifth Republic (current political entity). 2001:8003:9008:1301:B4FA:9377:92D1:B876 (talk) 14:44, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Comment: This however only seems to apply to the specific case of France, as the current state article almost always redirects to the main country article, see People's Republic of China -> China, Federal Republic of Germany -> Germany, Russian Federation -> Russia, etc. This also covers unrecognized states, such as Kosovo and Abkhazia where the main country article refers to the partly-recognized state. DominikWSP (talk) 16:58, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose: it should be the reverse, as per my previous comment. IEA represents the current ruling body in Afghanistan. Appropriate sections on governance and foreign relations can go under "Afghanistan" and "Government of Afghanistan", and the old government from 1996-2001 (to be differentiated from the "Taliban" which is an organization / movement / militant-political party) can be renamed to "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996–2001)". NoNews! 15:03, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose: For now. Wait until things calm down and the power transfer be officialized. LordLoko (talk) 15:07, 18 August 2021 (UTC). Support: The Islamic Republic is defunct. This is now Afghanistan's legitimate government. Bigeyedbeansfromvenus (talk) 16:28, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Support: IEA article should be merged into the main Afghanistan article as it is the state that de facto controls it even though it's unrecognized, see how the main Abkhazia article refers to the largely unrecognized Republic of Abkhazia. Islamic Republic of Afghanistan can be used to cover both the defunct government and the remaining resistance in Panjshir. DominikWSP (talk) 16:58, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Comment: After having read the caution to users, I want to specify that I'm indeed supporting the merger of Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan into Afghanistan and the editing of the latter to reflect the situation; I do NOT support merging it the other way around, as the main title should remain Afghanistan per WP:COMMONNAME. DominikWSP (talk) 18:48, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Weak Oppose Although Afghanistan is controlled by the Emirate now, maybe we should wait for some international recognitions before merging. Sgnpkd (talk) 17:18, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Proposterous argument. Taiwan and Northern Cyprus have no recognition. Ecpiandy (talk) 19:27, 18 August 2021 (UTC) It's not "preposterous" at all. Taiwan and Northern Cypress have been around for many, many decades and both have functioning governments without people jumping on to airplanes and falling to their death to get away. The "Emirate" has been back in place for a week. He's just saying it's a bit premature. And I agree. It's me...Sallicio!$\color {Red}\oplus$ 14:22, 19 August 2021 (UTC) Who tells you Taiwan has no recognition? And Northern Cyprus has Turkish recognition. Sgnpkd (talk) 18:09, 20 August 2021 (UTC) Strong oppose certain information about the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan should be in the article Afghanistan, but the bulk of the information about the 1996-2001 regime should not be. Furthermore, the article Afghanistan must and will remain at that title; no arguments are presented why we would need an unusual approach for geographic information. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 18:48, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose The Islamic Republic of Afghanistan was internationally recognized. Until the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan is not recognised by most of the countries I think we should not merge. BnC78 (talk) 18:56, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Strong support Per The Gentle Sleep --Integer123 (talk) 19:17, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Strong support this is the situation on the ground now, and as per The Gentle Sleep Ecpiandy (talk) 19:27, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Strong oppose per the caution below. All discussion about whether or not the article should be about the de facto regime is moot. No need to talk about recognition or lack thereof.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 20:09, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose It is way too early to call for a merge. While the Islamic Emirate is technically the governmental body of Afghanistan, it isn't recognized by any other country so far. We better wait until it starts gaining some recognition from other countries in the near future. Justrz (talk) 20:42, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Support IRA controls 0.8% of country while The Taliban control 99%. No need for the there to be two separate articles. Taliban have almost complete control of the country and have declared a Islamic Emirate. BigRed606 (talk) 21:59, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Strong support I am no fan of the Taliban, but UN recognition does not determine sovereignty not legitimacy; for a country to control 99% of a territory and somehow not be recognized encyclopaedically as the actual government is both ridiculous and biased. We don't have 2 flags and change it every 2 seconds on the China article, do we? How about Yemen? Did we turn Syria into this kind of mess? How about the CAR? All of those are FAR more split than Afghanistan at the current moment and yet we aren't seeing people scramble as hard whenever somebody even SUGGESTS that maybe it'd be helpful to have the article talk about the de facto government that won the civil war and, with the exception of a few small communities, controls the ENTIRE country. NekomancerJaidyn (talk) [she/her] 23:30, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Weak Oppose Panjshir resistance. I do see what User:Nekomancerjade means that IEA wasn't treated the same by reliable source when it controlled small communities. But as editors we should follow the reliable sources not our own WP:OR.Manabimasu (talk) 00:39, 19 August 2021 (UTC) :@Manabimasu: By that logic, any country with a territorial dispute wouldn’t be able to have its government on the main page. So China, Russia, Taiwan, etc wouldnt features their reigning regimes on their pages, which just doesn’t make sense. BakedGoods357 (talk) 01:16, 19 August 2021 (UTC) Support What the Republic is at this point, despite its international recognition, is an insurgency. We cannot treat it as legitimate (in the sense that it controls the country) anymore. Should that change, there would be room for discussion. The reality is, it hasn't, and most likely won't. The Islamic Republic is gone, if only for now. No point in denying reality. 180app (talk) 02:02, 19 August 2021 (UTC) Reliable sources are never neutral - We need to take the political climate surrounding the War on Terror into account, including the massive societal pressure after 9/11 to not be seen as sympathizing with the enemy. Note how many pages surrounding (and including) the War on Terror have actively disputed neutrality. I've been accused of being a terror sympathizer in response to my advocacy for a neutral perspective on this group and the conflict, which stings because they stand in opposition to pretty much all of my core values and I've lost family in this war. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 02:15, 19 August 2021 (UTC) Strong Support ultimately it's not up to the sentimentalities of those who mourn the collapse of the former Republic, nor up to the UN to decide which government does the vast majority of the governing within Afghanistan proper. The Taliban have established the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan and it is indisputably in predominant control over 99% of the country. A merge is, in this case, appropriate. Tennosenna (talk) 01:51, 19 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose Probable violation of WP:COMMONNAME, this would probably have to be merged the other way. Benica11 (talk) 03:19, 19 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose as written, support reversed The final article this all ends up on needs to be Afghanistan, but I support merging info from here to there, rather than the other way around. As the common name of the country, Afghanistan should absolutely not be a disambiguation page. BSMRD (talk) 04:07, 19 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose this proposed violation of WP:COMMONNAME. Support merge if the title remains "Afghanistan". We need official Taliban symbols there now that they won. Mottezen (talk) 04:05, 19 August 2021 (UTC) Strong Oppose: If these two pages need to be merged, the more suitable name would be Afghanistan as a more common name. --Wind2323 (talk) 11:38, 19 August 2021 (UTC) Strong Support given the direction is reversed and the article remains "Afghanistan," as is the standard for all other countries (France vs French Republic, Russia vs Russian Federation, etc). It is not a matter of if these articles will be merged, but when. There is no need to wait an arbitrary amount of time for any "dust to settle". The Taliban have won the war and have formed a government. PokeZelda64 (talk) 19:38, 19 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose, the Taliban has no international recognition and the country is still in the middle of an active civil war. This article shouldn’t be recognizing a government at the moment. Chessrat (talk, contributions) 19:57, 19 August 2021 (UTC) Strong Support I support that the articles should be merged accordingly. There are many unrecognised countries, but are shown as the legitimate owners of the territory they control in wikipedia pages, like Kosovo, Palestine, Taiwan, Northern Cyprus, et cetera. Serbia claims all of Kosovo, similarly the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan claims all of Afghanistan, but Afghanistan is de facto under the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. Whether people like it or not, the IEA is the current legitimate government of Afghanistan, and thus, I think, the articles should be merged. I support the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan article be merged witht that of Afghanistan's.GucciNuzayer (talk) 20:15, 19 August 2021 (UTC) Strong Support If we don't uphold our principle of recognizing facts now, we'll get this mess everytime there's a big political crisis in a country. We can't withdraw the political section for every country that suffers from this kind of unstability. --Termina2232 (talk) 21:04, 19 August 2021 (UTC) Strong Oppose The Afghanistan article is about a geographical region. It should (and does) acknowledge the de facto control of the IEA in the region. But there's a lot to say about the region that is not related to the IEA, and at least some things to say about the IEA that are not related to Afghanistan. So it makes sense that they are separate articles. TheChard (talk) 21:55, 19 August 2021 (UTC) Strong Oppose Afghanistan is the common name of the country no matter who is in control.204.237.3.153 (talk) 11:27, 20 August 2021 (UTC) Strong Oppose Unless there is ambiguity, we virtually always use the common name of a country. Furthermore, the current state of Afghanistan’s governance is still in flux. Just today there have been news reports of organized resistance to the Taliban takeover. And few if any countries have recognized the Taliban’s claim on the country. The current setup of three independent articles (one for the country and one each for its competing governments) is best and should be kept until things change. —ThorstenNY (talk) 16:15, 21 August 2021 (UTC) Strong oppose "Afghanistan" is the WP:COMMONNAME for the country no matter which government is in charge. We should retain an article titled "Afghanistan", that page should NOT be a redirect. ― Tartan357 Talk 01:33, 22 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose, I agree with the COMMONNAME argument, the Islamic Emirate article should be merged into the main one. Devonian Wombat (talk) 04:32, 23 August 2021 ) Oppose’’’ this request is backwards.2605:8D80:566:14FB:A8F4:8B25:7759:415E (talk) 11:37, 23 August 2021 (UTC) Strong Oppose Well, it seems unnecessary to do that.... Although Islamic Emirate is established, still many sources refer them as Taliban not an "Islamic Emirate". Also, it is not recognized by any country..... 125.178.79.199 (talk) 02:52, 27 August 2021 (UTC) Caution to users Note that the move proposer, The Gentle Sleep, proposed to redirect content from "Afghanistan" to "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan" (this title), NOT the other way round. NoNews! 17:36, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Thanks for the note.....as Its clear from above most dont understand that changing the common name of the country is the proposal. --Moxy- 18:07, 18 August 2021 (UTC) A couple people may have gotten confused after someone temporarily changed the direction of the merge, but most people seem to understand the nature of the proposal. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 07:30, 19 August 2021 (UTC)(old comment I forgot to sign) In conclusion, some can't accept the reality because it hurts their feelings Mikebot321123 (talk) 03:27, 19 August 2021 (UTC) While I agree that emotions may be a factor for some, saying it's just hurt feelings is a bit reductionist. There are people who genuinely fear for their lives right now (enough for some to cling to the outside of aircraft resulting in their deaths.) Whether the fear of those who are panicking turns out to be founded is something which only time can tell, but considering the past as well as the over 20 year campaign describing them as pure evil, it isn't unreasonable for some people to resist accepting the material conditions in the region right now. There are also those who don't want to acknowledge the IEA being in control of the government for philosophical reasons. Some people prefer to go by national sovereignty and reject the idea that a state requires outside recognition to exist, while others appeal to authority by arguing that international authority or outside experts must recognize a state for them to exist. Although appeal to authority is a fallacy, that doesn't mean it's always wrong, just that it shouldn't be assumed to be the right answer simply because it's often the default assumption. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 07:25, 19 August 2021 (UTC) Pls review WP:UCRN.--Moxy- 11:45, 20 August 2021 (UTC) The main thing I've been arguing is basically what's discussed in WP:POVNAME, that sometimes it's best to redirect from the most commonly known name to the most neutral/ accurate name, and that it's useful to balance what users are likely to type as a first guess with what they expect to be taken to. This seems to be an accepted practice in cases of questionable neutrality. I have come around on merging Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan into Afghanistan as I stated in the below section on direction of merge, but I wanted to clarify my reasoning for arguing the other direction initially. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 12:50, 20 August 2021 (UTC) In my view though, the philosophical question of national sovereignty vs appeal to authority isn't nearly as important to those unfamiliar with the region as knowing who has material dominance in the region. Regardless of who is considered the correct regime, the most important thing for readers is to know which set of laws they need to follow to avoid being jailed, who to call if they experience an emergency while traveling to the region, and who in practice controls the police. Knowing this information is required in order to make informed choices which impact personal safety. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 07:42, 19 August 2021 (UTC) Sources References Call for consensus on merge and new discussion on the direction of the merge - We seem to largely agree that a merge should occur, the nature of the disagreement seems to be over the name of the combined article. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 04:19, 19 August 2021 (UTC) We seem to largely agree that a merge should occur actually we don't and I personally object to ANY merge or rename which does not have clear consensus as to the logic as well as title and content of move. What appears to be proposed at present is that an article about a country which has existed under present name since around 800 CE, should be merged into an article about a barely functioning state, which has existed for several hours, run by a group which has been around for roughly 25 years. Personally, I think the necessary logic simply needs clarifying. The new regime is the ‘Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan’" - akin to a French Nth republic or German Weimar Republic or German or Greek political era, and is distinct from, but probably shares elements with the previous Emirate, including the name. The political group (who have been largely continuous since '96) are "the Taliban", the long-term country name is "Afghanistan", akin to 'France' or 'Germany' or 'Greece' and has remained so under many regimes, probably 6 since the last Afghan monarchy alone. Pincrete (talk) 16:12, 19 August 2021 (UTC) Direction of merge My perspective is that we should have Afghanistan redirect here, we already have a link to Islamic Republic of Afghanistan in the header. I would conditionally support a merge in the other direction if the resulting article maintains the current neutral tone of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan page. I do however feel very strongly that whichever way the merge goes, the resulting article needs to be clear about which group holds majority dominance in the region, otherwise the article could serve to create confusion about the security status and safety of travel to the region, what laws need to be followed to avoid being imprisoned, and who a traveler can contact in an emergency while abroad. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 04:29, 19 August 2021 (UTC)  !Support I propose we follow the Libya precedent from 2011 and keep the neutral info box followed by two infoboxes below it for both governments for a few weeks until the situation stabilizes, especially as the Republic collapsed so quickly that the Taliban themselves haven't even finished the process of reestablishing the Government, currently it's not even clear what the new government structure is even going to be. Otherwise I'm in favor recognizing the IEA as the government of Afghanistan as it's quite evident the republic only exists on paper at this point in time and its actual continued existence appears dubious currently. Thegunkid (talk) 06:08, 19 August 2021 (UTC) Strong Support Taliban officially declared Islamic Emirates of Afghanistan few hours ago Ytpks896 (talk) 10:06, 19 August 2021 (UTC) Right, but that means they should be the government mentioned in the main article, Afghanistan. Now that the Taliban rules we should have the WP:COMMONNAME as the article. Having the common name as a redirect to the formal is silly. FlalfTalk 21:45, 19 August 2021 (UTC) References Strong Support for merging and redirect. Taliban officially declared Islamic Emirates of Afghanistan and it controls 99% of the country.Nafis Fuad Ayon (talk) 14:43, 19 August 2021 (UTC) Strong Oppose The Islamic Republic of Afghanistan is still the internationally recognized and legitimate government and it still has at least some land and an acting President. If anything, the article should be merged with that of the Panjshir Resistance. Wikipedia should not give recognition to the Islamic Emirate as it is run by a terror group! This article should either be merged with the Islamic REPUBLIC, which still legally exists and is still representing Afghanistan at the United Nations, or remain NEUTRAL! EDIT 8/25: The flag of the Islamic Republic was flown during the parade of nations at the opening ceremony for the Paralympics in Tokyo last night 8/24. It is clear from this that the Islamic Republic still legally exists and is still the legally recognized state. The IEA should not be merged with this article because it is not the legitimate government of Afghanistan; in my opinion it should be treated like other unrecognized countries/breakaway states/occupied areas like Donetsk, Crimea/Sevestapol, and Luhansk, which is the current status quo for this article as it is controlled by a rebel group. Therefore, I still strongly oppose the proposed merger. Evercool1 (talk) 17:04, 19 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose Just looking for the precedent: most other articles I've checked seem to just use a short name for the region and have the official name of the state redirect to it (like Poland or Brazil) and included in the first sentence. So probably Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan should redirect to Afghanistan. TheChard (talk) 19:46, 19 August 2021 (UTC) Strong Oppose I think this would be more appropriate --Termina2232 (talk) 21:06, 19 August 2021 (UTC) Strong Oppose Should be the other way around, with Islamic Emirate redirecting to Afghanistan. Islamic Emirate is merely the formal term used for Afghanistan after the Taliban takeover. FlalfTalk 21:38, 19 August 2021 (UTC) Strong Support Per @The Gentle Sleep: 205.164.107.40 (talk) 02:56, 20 August 2021 (UTC) Categorically Oppose Afghanistan is a country, the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan is a regime with limited recognition. Having the former redirect to the latter makes no sense. If you insist on merging them (which I am completely opposed to) it should be the other way around. Charles Essie (talk) 03:26, 20 August 2021 (UTC) Comment - The Afghanistan page was used to refer to the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan prior to their collapse, it would be strange not to have the current government be the subject of the primary Afghanistan page. I see valid arguments on both sides of the issue of which page should be primary, and I don't feel particularly strongly about which one that should be so long as the article maintains a neutral tone and avoids making value judgement in regard to the government along moral lines, as morality is subjective and objectivity is required for neutrality. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 03:54, 20 August 2021 (UTC) Strong oppose as written, strong support for the reverse — we have an article on China, which is probably the most similar case to this, and People's Republic of China redirects to it — not the other way around. The same is true for other countries. It would make no sense to have Afghanistan redirect to Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, since the concept of Afghanistan is much broader than the current government. For example, the Kingdom of Afghanistan predates both the Republic and the Emirate. 3 kids in a trenchcoat (talk) 04:38, 20 August 2021 (UTC) Changing my position - 3 kids in a trenchcoat's point is compelling to me, I now support merging Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan into Afghanistan while maintaining the current neutral tone that the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan article currently has. I strongly believe that we should do our best to remain neutral and let the facts speak for themselves with the combined article, and that we should be careful not to imply that the crimes of the 1996 - 2001 reign are still occurring without proper citation to show them occurring under the current reign. We must keep in mind that the narrative was tightly controlled during the 2001 - 2021 period, and we should try to remain neutral even though most sources will be written through a biased lens. To be clear biased sources are still valuable, but only for their objective facts, the subjective opinions should be excluded for the sake of neutrality. We already have enough articles relating to the middle east with disputed neutrality, so we should be careful not to make that problem worse. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 05:41, 20 August 2021 (UTC) Weak support for merging IEA into Afghanistan on the condition that a separate article about the 1996–2001 IEA is maintained. Otherwise a merge would end up extremely messy and a lot of information would be lost. Applodion (talk) 08:50, 20 August 2021 (UTC) Comment - I agree that a separate article for the 1996 - 2001 IEA will be required to go into greater detail on it, as bringing over everything about the 1st reign would make the Afghanistan article too long. We should at least bring over some general information about the 1st reign though, including past human rights abuses and their long held opposition to bacha bazi since the past give critical context to the present and future. There are already pages devoted to those topics in detail, but giving a brief overview on the main page is important. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 09:48, 20 August 2021 (UTC) Weak oppose - While it's undeniable the IEA is in control of Afghanistan, the IRA is still internationally recognized as the de jure government by all other countries despite no longer being in power. As such I think the article for Afghanistan should remain neutral until the Taliban starts to receive international support (which I believe is only a matter of time). This is a messy situation and I think it's for the best to wait for the dust to clear before making any major changes. That being said though, Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan should be merged into Afghanistan and not the other way around owing to WP:COMMONNAME, it's rare for extant countries to have their articles titled after its full official name except when disambiguation is needed (e.g. the two Congos). I also support a separate article for the 1996-2001 government to be made for the same reason why the Federal Republic of Germany has a separate article for its history before 1990, it is common for the two eras to be thought of as separate even though it's the same uninterrupted government. PolarManne (talk) 14:23, 20 August 2021 (UTC) Support I support the Islamic Emirate being merged with Afghanistan due to it being the factual governors of Afghanistan, this shouldn’t even be a debate and the only people opposing it have a clear bias against the Taliban due to patriotic fragility rather than wanting to correct the factual history of the country. Bobisland (talk) 14:29, 20 August 2021 (UTC) Comment Also whether the Islamic Emirate is internationally recognized has nothing to do with whether it actually governs Afghanistan or not. Bobisland (talk) 14:30, 20 August 2021 (UTC) Merge/redirect the post-2021 Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan into Afghanistan (current government/country), and split standalone Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996–2001) page. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Thanks ♥) 14:49, 20 August 2021 (UTC) I say that it shouldn't be changed to islamic emirate of afghanistan because it isn't called that and the people dont call it that Support per Applodion's argument. Title should be Afghanistan if it is merged per WP:COMMONNAME. Viewsridge (talk) 16:32, 20 August 2021 (UTC) Support Regardless of the present political situation, the government of Afganistan is de jure IEoA. Unless the system changes, it is the only one that stands today.Alexceltare2 (talk) 00:16, 21 August 2021 (UTC) Merge the 2021 Emirate merging into the Afghanistan article, and split the 1996-2001 article into its own article. There isn't much of a chance of the IRA retaking the entire country in the immediate future. Despite not being widely officially recognized, the IEA is the de facto government, and it has been for close to a week. VideōEtCorrigō (talk) 04:36, 21 August 2021 (UTC) Support The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (IEA) is undoubtedly the current dominant and governing body of Afghanistan. Wikipedia should reflect truth, and the truth is that the IEA is the uncontestede government of Afghanistan. The Islamic Republic of Afghanistan (IRA) already has its own article as it is not the governing body of Afghanistan. I support this Hxrry42 (talk) 12:03, 21 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose The Islamic Emirate has its own history as a regime and a government-in-exile before retaking control. Their lack of international recognition as opposed the Islamic Republic also makes such a move impartial. Charles Essie (talk) 16:38, 21 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose The Islamic Emirate is neither officially recognized in Afghanistan by the Afghan people nor recognized by any UN member state so far. Let us wait for the facts than to rush to conclusions about events and announcements that have not occurred yet. PeaceTheory (talk) 03:08, 22 August 2021 (UTC) Support IEA controls almost 100% of Afgan territory and it is the current governing body of Afghanistan. Ytpks896 (talk) 11:41, 22 August 2021 (UTC) Comment Zero consensus here. We seem to be split in two. 26zhangi (talk) 17:59, 22 August 2021 (UTC) Strong Support The IEA is the current legitimate government in Kabul. If there is IRA resistance, they can be relegated to an article separate from Afghanistan, similar to how the ROC article is seperate from China. (JayPlaysStuff | talk to me | What I've been up to) 22:59, 22 August 2021 (UTC) The IEA is the current legitimate government in Kabul - in what sense "legitimate"? Pincrete (talk) 18:14, 23 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose, the Taliban regime has already lost 4 provinces in the last 72 hours. Their hold on the country is not complete nor has it been in place long enough to assume their currently unorganized Emirate (which has not yet established any formal structure to govern), will hold the country or to what extent they'll hold it if they do. Holding Kabul is not a magic bullet that means they run the country. 98.176.146.194 (talk) 17:30, 23 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose, Until the Islamic Emirate gains any international recognition by several countries and consolidates power, the page should not be merged with the IEA article. Support, as it stands, this regime controls the vast majority of Afghanistan and is in control of the government. As a result, I believe the merger would be far better for the sake of clarity and avoiding confusion. PoliticsEnthusiast (talk) 22:53, 23 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose, the regime that currently controls most of the country is not the country itself. Even if the Taliban regime would manage to govern Afganistan (they haven't formed a government yet, nor do we know how stable their control over Afghanistan will be) and gain recognition by several states, then it would still not make sense to treat Emirate differently with respect to Afghanistan than the People's Republic of China with respect to China. China does not redirect to the People's Republic of China, but the People's Republic of China redirects to China. So it would be strange to do it the other way around with the Emirate. Yuyuhunter (talk) 07:33, 25 August 2021 (UTC) Support. The old republic has completely dissolved. The IEA is now the official government. 24.150.136.254 (talk) 15:06, 25 August 2021 (UTC) Comment I think it's interesting that the majority of these !voters are people who have only recently created accounts or have about 100 edits. Surely there's no group of people trying to push a certain narrative, right? BirdValiant (talk) 15:58, 25 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose. This is not a legitimate RfC becaase it is not clear which exactly parts of another page are suggested to be merged. Something can be possibly merged, but one does not need an RfC for that. My very best wishes (talk) 18:37, 25 August 2021 (UTC) Support The IEA has complete control over Afghanistan with as of now with significantly more political power than the old republic which is dissolved and per the other arguments. SuperSkaterDude45 (talk) 07:15, 26 August 2021 (UTC) WP Strong Support The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan must be merged with the wikipedia page Afghanistan and the page should be called "Afghanistan." Meanwhile, the "Islamic Republic of Afghanistan" remains a separate page. Part of this article can become a separate page called "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996-2001)." The newly merged "Afghanistan" would become the main page for Afghanistan, like "Bangladesh" is the main page for Bangladesh and "Qatar" is the main page for Qatar. In this page, Afghanistan, the political and government section will be all about the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. History will be Afghanistan's and the region's entire History, Geography will be the region's Geography. Searching "Afghanistan" would direct the page to the merged page. Currently searching "Afghanistan" shows the Islamic Republic's flag being used, it should be replaced by that of the Islamic Emirate's. GucciNuzayer (talk) 17:28, 26 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose. I can't believe there is any sound reason for the main article about the country not to be Afghanistan. If that is what is being proposed - it's far from clear that everyone commenting is talking about the same thing. ProfDEH (talk) 21:25, 26 August 2021 (UTC) Strong oppose. The current government operated by the Taliban is NOT the same thing as the country of Afghanistan. Paul Vaurie (talk) 00:15, 27 August 2021 (UTC) Strong oppose. If you going to merge Afghanistan to this article, there are too many contradictions and irony, because many resources and news proves 'Afghanistan ≠Islamic State of Afghanistan' -- 125.178.79.199 (talk) 02:57, 27 August 2021 (UTC) Strong Oppose. We already voted on a merger before. Now, please, why on earth should Afghanistan be merged with IEA instead of the other way around? I was all for merging IEA with Afghanistan, but the other way around is ridiculous. NekomancerJaidyn (talk) [she/her] 16:25, 27 August 2021 (UTC) Strong Oppose I don't see any point in merging this article into the Islamic emirate one; I think it would make more sense to do it the other way around. As I'm sure others have said, the current Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan page should be renamed to reflect the old emirate that existed between 1996-2001, while the New Islamic Emirate should take the place of the the generic Afghanistan page. I am a firm believer in portraying situations as they are defacto on Wikipedia and it seems quite silly (at least to me) to change that with Afghanistan's articles. Despite the fact that the Taliban hasn't been recognized by any country yet, I think it's still best to treat the Taliban as the real afghanistan.Benniboi01 (talk) 22:35, 28 August 2021 (UTC) Strong Oppose This is still a tough issue. Since the Taliban taken Kabul and the country by force, is still not recognised by the international community as the legitimate government and is widely considered a terrorist organisation, merging "Afghanistan" with "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan" is still not a wise move since it is a tough issue. We still have to wait whether the international community will recognise or not the Taliban-led "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan" and how the Panjshir resistance - the still recognised state what left from the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan will deal with the Taliban fighters from now. HomemdeGelo (talk) HomemdeGelo (talk) 00:30, 29 August 2021 (UTC) Strong Oppose 1) Reason: 1a) Afghanistan is the WP:COMMONNAME of the country/region. 1b) Without getting too philosophical, "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan" (IEA) is what the Taliban (and so far only the Taliban) want to call it at this point in history, while it is under their domain, but even they agree that the land is the land of Afghanistan; just while it's under their domain, it's the IEA. IEA is more like the name of a government, or the country under a specific government, than the (permanent) name of the country itself. 2) Precedent: For these reasons, we have articles on Iran, Pakistan, and Mauritania; not the Islamic Republic of Iran, Pakistan, and Mauritania. In fact, the official title of most countries is the 'Republic of X'. We generally, use just X, not 'Republic of X'. 3) Alternative: If anything, this article should (eventually) be merged into the Afghanistan and Politics of Afghanistan articles to supplement &/ possibly (eventually) replace the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan content/orientation/focus in those articles. So ironically, the more established the IEA becomes, the less reason there is to keep it as a separate article, since it will get merged into the other two articles. Exactly when/how to merge it is a separate issue, but it is beyond clear that the main article of Afghanistan can never be merged/redirected to this article. Yaakovaryeh (talk) Oppose - We should just wait until we see what transitional government actually forms before we do any merging.Inkan1969 (talk) 17:27, 29 August 2021 (UTC) Strongly oppose a merge from Afghanistan -> Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan under any circumstances, at any point in the foreseeable future; obviously, if we end up with one article, Afghanistan will remain the WP:COMMONNAME - we cannot turn it into a redirect; we have China, not People's Republic of China, after all. This is such a self-evident fact that I'm unsure if some of the people supporting this actually understand what they are supporting (I strongly urge the closer to disregard any vote above that doesn't specifically state that they want to turn Afghanistan into a redirect - several comments above merely say things like "they're in charge of the country now", which gives the impression that they just skimmed the discussion and do not understand the full implications of a merge in this direction. A merge in the other direction might eventually be worth considering, but given the size of both articles it is not something that can really be suggested so glibly - in practice we cannot simply combine the two articles due to their size; large parts would be need to spun off onto other articles, so it is more likely that this is something that should be broken down into a more detailed discussion of how to structure things (and is something that should be done once the situation has settled slightly.) --Aquillion (talk) 18:02, 29 August 2021 (UTC) Strongly Oppose - The Afghanistan page is strongly to talk about the geographical country, and everything within it's border, NOT the government that runs it. It makes no sense that we do this now, but while the Republic of Afghanistan was running Afghanistan, there was no talk about this.Evanblockz (talk) 23:58, 31 August 2021 (UTC) Oppose no sense to do this for now.--John123521 (Talk-Contib.) 13:45, 1 September 2021 (UTC) Close this now? A combination of confusion as to direction/scope of move and the disparate views expressed suggest to me that there is ZERO likelihood of anything other than a "no consensus" outcome. Should we close this ourselves or ask for a formal close (the closer might be able to filter out some substantive points expressed). Either way I think it has run long enough. Pincrete (talk) 10:39, 30 August 2021 (UTC) I'm closing this. Resources should be EASY to access for ALL. It was an emirate a few decades ago under Taliban control, and now once again on 31 Aug 2021. Come on people! It's info, not a court case! It's knowledge, and common knowledge at that. Don't overcomplicate it. Morpheus890 (talk) 19:44, 1 September 2021 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Split? - 2021-08-19

Taliban announced that they reestablished the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, with a different flag. Does it mean this country is different from the one before 2001? Also see discussion above. -- 魔琴 (Zauber Violino) (talk) 10:32, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

• That's been their coat of arms forever, see: Emblem_of_Afghanistan
• They have simply declared that they are using the same name and that they have reestablished dominance. Splitting information about their history prior to this new government also removes critical context about previous human rights abuses, making it more difficult for less informed readers to understand potential dangers and make an informed choice in regard to tourism to the region. Also consider that several nations have changed their flag multiple times without changing governments. For these reasons the article should not be split. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 11:19, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

• The Islamic State of Afghanistan has had flag variants but there is 1 article for it.Manabimasu (talk) 12:16, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, a new country has been established therefore the start date of this new country is today. Cedwoodint (talk) 18:17, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

they have not declared a new emirate, they have made a declaration commemorating independence day Serafart (talk) (contributions) 19:55, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Taliban have officially declared the emirate

I know many people here were waiting for an official declaration by them to merge part of this page to the main Afghanistan page, and they just released one a couple hours ago on Twitter https://mobile.twitter.com/Zabehulah_M33/status/1428236041039880193

It reads “Declaration of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan on the occasion of the 102nd anniversary of the country's independence from British rule“ and shows the countries coat of arms (or new flag? Not exactly sure.) BakedGoods357 (talk) 14:51, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

If you read the flag, it carries the date 1415-1-10 Hijri = 20-Jun-1994, so the Taliban themselves don't consider that they've declared a new emirate, but rather than the current emirate is the same as in 1994. --Soman (talk) 15:21, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

​ Source on that translation? If true, the article has the year set as 1996. Would this mean setting the date back to 1994? What is the significance of this date?Manabimasu (talk) 15:40, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Taliban themselves don't consider that they've declared a new emirate, but rather than the current emirate is the same as in 1994. - "Well, they would, wouldn't they?" - it implies continuity and legitimacy. Pincrete (talk) 15:48, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

@Manabimasu - in the image you find the same symbol as in File:Arms_of_the_Islamic_Emirate_of_Afghanistan.svg. Between the shahada and the name Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (in Pashto) you find 1415-01-10 h.q., i.e. 10th day of the 1st month of Hijri year 1415 (=which per online converters correspond to 20 June 1994). The Taliban thus consider the launch of their movement as the founding date of the Emirate, not their 1996 capture of Kabul. That said, to include in article mainspace you'd been a third-party ref stating this, not just wikipedians extrapolating from images. --Soman (talk) 17:06, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

As for outside sources about the definition of this, Russian state media wrote an article on the topic https://www.rt.com/news/532470-taliban-declares-islamic-emirate-afghanistan/ BakedGoods357 (talk) 17:43, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

that is not a declaration of the emirate. it is a declaration BY the emirate. they consider it the same as the old one . Serafart (talk) (contributions) 19:43, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

They didn't declare a new emirate as they consider themselves the same emirate, they celebrated independence. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 03:40, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 August 2021

The flag that is on the page Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan is wrong, the correct flag is the white flag and the black shahada (1996-2001 version). The flag that is currently displayed is only a press release icon on twitter. 82.146.169.116 (talk) 16:12, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Please discuss any changes to the flag and gain consensus before requesting an edit. Thanks. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:29, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Supposed Declaration

@Syed Aashir, Pincrete, and Worldwar1989: The statement being cited as a "re declaration" of the Islamic Emirate does not say anything of the such. The full statement that was cited by media for this alleged declaration taken from https://alemarahpashto.com/?p=235407 reads as follows:

له نن څخه پوره یو سل او دوه کاله وړاندې ۱۲۹۸ ه ش کال د اسد په (۲۸) د افغانستان مجاهد ولس له انګریزي استعمار څخه د اتیا کلن جهادي مقاومت په پایله کې خپلواکې واخیسته. دا هغه مهال و چې برتانوي امپراتورۍ د نړۍ دومره پراخه جغرافیه لاندې کړې وه چې په قلمرو کې یې لمرنه ډوبیده. مګر افغان مجاهد ولس د خپلو مجاهدو علماو تر قیادت لاندې له دې مغرورې امپراتوري سره داسې تاریخي مقابله وکړه چې له افغانستانه په شړلو سره یې د هغې د واکمنۍ پراخه ساحه د اوسنۍ برتانیې تر سکڼل شوي جغرافيې ور محدوده کړه. د مجاهدو افغانانو په لاس د برتانوي امپراتوري دړې وړې کول د پیړۍ ستر بدلون وبلل شو او د نړۍ ډیر نور محکوم ولسونه د همدې بدلون په برکت د استعمار له فتنې وژغورل شول. د افغانانو په لاس د برتانوي امپراتورۍ تر نسکورولو وروسته شوروي امپراتورۍ د افغانستان پر سپیڅلی حریم یرغل وکړ , خو هغوي ته یې هم د جهاد او مبارزې له مورچله د عبرت هغه درس ورکړ چې د لوی شوروي اتحاد نوم یې د نړۍ له نقشې محو او تر خیټې لاندې ټول محکوم هیوادونه تري ازاد کړاى شول. له نیکه مرغه چې مونږ نن له انګریزي ښکیلاک نه د خپلواکۍ کلیزه په داسې حال کې لمانځو چې په عین وخت کې مو د نړۍ یو بل مغرور زبر ځواک امریکا هم د جهادي مقاومت په مټ ناکامه او د افغانستان له سپیڅلي حریم څخه پرشاتګ ته مجبوره کړې. دا یو الهی نصرت دی چې د افغانانو غوندي بیوسه مسلمانانو په لاس په دریو پیړیو کې د نړۍ دری مستکبرې امپراتورۍ یو په بل پسي ماتي او له خپلې خاوري وشړي. د افغانانو لپاره دا ډیر د ویاړ ځای دی چې هیواد يې نن له امریکايي اشغال څخه هم د خپلواکۍ په درشل کې دی. دا ویاړ یو الهي نعمت دی چې له امله یې پر ټولو افغانانو شکر کول واجب دي. د دې نعمت شکر په خپل هیواد کې د اسلامي نظام حاکمیت او د هغه تر سیوري لاندې د هیواد د بیارغونې او سوکالي لپاره په یووالي او صداقت سره کار کول دي. له الله تعالی څخه په دغه ستر آرمان کې خپل مسلمان ولس ته د بریالیتوب غوښته کوو. والسلام

It is only a statement commemorating Afghan independence day, and recalls memories of defeating the British, Soviets, and now the Americans. It does NOT however say anything about a new declaration of the Islamic Emirate, as in their eyes it never stopped existing. Media misinterpreted the "Declaration of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan" to mean that they were re-declaring the emirate, when it is actually how they title all statements. The part of the infobox giving August 19th as a date of a "reestablishment" or "redeclaration" of the Islamic Emirate is therefore incorrect and should be removed. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 03:07, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

It's still an important and notable date, so I fixed it to be more neutral/ accurate. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 03:38, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

They make declarations all the time, this time is no different than any others. Independence day is a holiday in Afghanistan that has been celebrated on August 19th for 102 years now. It's not a significant date for the history section of the infobox of the Islamic Emirate. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 03:51, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

It's the 1st time they've celebrated independence while in control of Afghanistan since 2001, it's symbolically significant. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 04:01, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

it's symbolically significant - Says who? To whom? That's pure WP:OR. As incidentally is the present text -"formally restored" - no source uses these words or synonyms and Serafart's analysis doesn't confirm it. I think we either obey what MSM are saying (that it was a declaration) - or we take Serafart's word for it that MSM are wrong and this was simply a standard communication. Policy suggests we should do the former, my instincts and circumstantials tell me the latter -removal- is a 'safer bet'. What we should not be doing is constructing WP:OR narratives. Pincrete (talk) 07:54, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

This article from The Hill is a pretty authorarative source saying there has been a formal deceleration. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 08:09, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

• The full statement being cited is posted here with citation to it's source, I'm not sure what WP:OR Pincrete is referring to. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 10:00, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
• Oh, and I don't need a source to state the significance of the 1st independence day celebration after an occupation ends, it's obvious. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 10:02, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

I was referring to the claim on the article that the emirate was formally restored by this declaration and the claim here that this particular 'anniversary' declaration has some special significance this time around. Neither the sources nor Serafart claim either - which appear to be somewhat contradictory claims anyhow.

I've removed 'formally' from the infobox for the time being in the hope that honour is satisfied all round while we sort this out and that we are following WP:RS.

Sky is blue is an essay and only applies if no one challeges an edit. Most of the time the sky is actually black/grey/white/yellow and red, so it's a fairly silly claim really even in the real world. Pincrete (talk) 10:21, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

That's a fair point about sky is blue being silly, but the symbolic significance of an occupation ending and the Islamic Emirate regaining control just before the anniversary should be about as obvious as the symbolic significance of leaving the region on the anniversary of 9/11 would have been. I'm far from the group's biggest fan, but I appreciate symbolism in general. I agree that calling it a formal declaration is a bit odd, it just seems like them celebrating independence but this seems like a decent compromise. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 10:40, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

It does not belong in an infobox. The Taliban make statements all the time for holidays and such, and this time is no different. Just because some media outlets mistranslated their declaration does not mean that anything has changed. This is also not the first time they have celebrated independence as they have released declarations commemorating independence day every year. This time is not any more significant than the others. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 20:20, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

You have stated on many occasions that the media just mistranslated this Taliban quote, but what are we supposed to do if all sources describe it as a declaration? We can't just take your word that your own translation is correct and no one in the media could produce an accurate translation. Do you have any sources claiming that news outlets got it wrong?  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 22:00, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

While I do not have any sources other than the Taliban to support this, it is known that all announcements from the Taliban contains the phrase "افغانستان إسلامي امارت اعلامیه" in the title which means "Declaration of/by the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan". All of the media outlets that are making this claim cite this tweet: https://twitter.com/Zabehulah_M33/status/1428236041039880193/ to support it, which reads "Declaration of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan on the occasion of the 102nd anniversary of independence from British rule" and links to the following declaration: https://alemarahpashto.com/?p=235407 . While the page is down right now, there is a cached version available here: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:SGWqxw-mcYMJ:https://alemarahpashto.com Said declaration makes no mention of any re declaration of the Islamic Emirate, and only marks independence day celebrations. Using tools such as Google translate also corroborate with my description of the declaration to not be a "redeclaration" of the Emirate. My source is the official declaration put out by the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 22:18, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

@Serafart: We can only follow reliable sources. Instead of convincing editors, you could contact the reliable sources instead such as New York Times etc..Manabimasu (talk) 23:34, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

In this particular case though, the Taliban ARE the most reliable source for this. this part of the infobox is a pure statement of facts, so the Taliban, being a primary source, can be used for this. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 23:42, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

The problem is, the sources also used the Taliban's direct quote. They simply translated it different than you.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 00:26, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Those sources only used the tweet with the link to the article (porbably because the website was down). The full taliban statement clarifies the confusion though, and makes no allusion to a "re declaration". Serafart (talk) (contributions) 00:44, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

At the end of the day, the argument you're making is that reliable sources translated it wrong and you translated it right. Wikipedia goes by what reliable sources have to say. We can't just take your word. You really shouldn't mass remove content on the basis that you alone are a better translator than anyone in the media. Sentences like "Using tools such as Google translate also corroborate with my description of the declaration" are especially concerning. I'm surprised I have to say this, but Google Translate isn't going to give as good of a translation as someone who actually knows the language. I don't know you well enough to comment on your Pashto, but you don't seem to display it on your list of languages on your Wikipedia profile, so I really get the impression that you simply used an online translator and assumed it to be more correct than the translations that media companies were able to produce.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 01:51, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

​​​​ another source - https://www.urdupoint.com/en/world/taliban-yet-to-declare-islamic-emirate-of-afg-1330537.html , http://www.uniindia.com/news/world/taliban-yet-to-declare-islamic-emirate-of-afghanistan-officially-political-office/2482659.html which says Taliban has not declared Emirate. A day after the tweet was made. This was the earlier news by the same source - http://www.uniindia.com/taliban-declare-formation-of-islamic-emirate-of-afghanistan/world/news/2481370.htmlManabimasu (talk) 00:49, 21 August 2021 (UTC) Here is the news from the interview done by Sputnik-https://sputniknews.com/asia/202108201083666116-live-updates-uk-embassy-guards-in-kabul-told-they-are-ineligible-for-rescue-amid-taliban-takeover/ scroll down and the earlier news by Sputnik news - https://sputniknews.com/asia/202108201083668496-what-are-the-major-challenges-faced-by-the-taliban-after-their-swift-takeover-of-kabul/ .Manabimasu (talk) 01:06, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Confusingly, the UrduPoint article (which cites Sputnik) said that they have yet to declare anything, yet the Sputnik article starts with the sentence "On 19 August, the Taliban declared the formation of the 'Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan'". I'm not really sure what to make of that contradiction, but we don't really need to take Sputnik seriously anyways. According to WP:RSP, "there is consensus that Sputnik is an unreliable source that publishes false or fabricated information."  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 01:51, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

​No, scroll down on this page https://sputniknews.com/asia/202108201083666116-live-updates-uk-embassy-guards-in-kabul-told-they-are-ineligible-for-rescue-amid-taliban-takeover/ to find the interview. The other page is what they previously reported. From WP:RSPUSE,

Sources which are generally unreliable may still be useful in some situations.

. Even if Sputnik published false stories, the two other news sources would then be reliable in routing the news. In WP:RSCONTEXT, Sputnik in this context isn’t affiliated with any parties in the War in Afghanistan (2001-2021)?Manabimasu (talk) 02:06, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Needless to say, if reliable sources say one thing and an unreliable source says another, we don't go with what the unreliable one says.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 02:11, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

UrduPoint and UniIndia are unreliable? There is no consensus on that, so these are reliable sources.Manabimasu (talk) 02:15, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Both the UrduPoint and UniIndia pages you linked to are just forks of the Sputnik article you wanted me to scroll to, and it even says so at the top, so yes. I am saying that. Sputnik is still Sputnik, even if another website copies and pastes one of their articles.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 02:23, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Is there a policy besides WP:IAR on forks as described?Manabimasu (talk) 02:25, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Manabimasu, my friend, it says it's a Sputnik article at the top of the article. If that's not a sufficient explanation, then I don't know what to do with you.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 02:31, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Why not just use The Hill article? That's a highly reliable source. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 02:08, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

The New York Times removed their article on the Islamic Emirate declaration, so it is currently archived. Because of the contradiction from the two other sources excluding Sputnik. Wait for more sources?Manabimasu (talk) 02:13, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

No they didn't, and I have no idea why you thought they did. Just because something is on web.archive.org doesn't mean it was removed.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 02:25, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

The article that is linked does not say anything about the “declaration of the Islamic Emirate”. Have a look first?Manabimasu (talk) 02:26, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm really surprised I need to say this, but that's because it's a live page that gets updated constantly... that's why it was snapshotted when they reported on the declaration of the emirate.... it's exhausting having to state the obvious this much, so I think I'm done replying to you.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 02:31, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

If someone cared enough to they could just find any other statement released by the Taliban which hasn't been taken down or has been archived to demonstrate that the phrase "افغانستان إسلامي امارت اعلامیه" is in the title of even one other instance, wouldn't that prove the point? (I don't care enough to personally, but there seem to be people here who might) The Gentle Sleep (talk) 03:56, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

@The Gentle Sleep: sure: here is some times zabihullah has made such statements: https://twitter.com/Zabehulah_M33/status/1426165226035195910 https://twitter.com/Zabehulah_M33/status/1326055602364231681 https://twitter.com/Zabehulah_M33/status/1365905581832339463 https://twitter.com/Zabehulah_M33/status/1378637120798138370 https://twitter.com/Zabehulah_M33/status/1397402936247005186 https://twitter.com/Zabehulah_M33/status/1403639563504033794 Serafart (talk) (contributions) 05:38, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Awesome, that should settle the matter. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 12:33, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

The NYTimes above actually says "Afghanistan — a nation with a brutal history,… … is now the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. The Taliban reasserted its new regime in a tweet on Thursday commemorating the anniversary of independence from British rule." So there is no mention of a declaration. I suspect Serafart is right but the bulk of MSM seem to treat the tweet as such a 'declaration'. Pincrete (talk) 07:22, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Disputed topic

What’s the main subject or theme of this article? Is that a former country? Then it should be named "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996–2001)" and informations should change as a historical state. Or, a current state? Then this article should merge to "Afghanistan", because basically Afghanistan is the common name and entity of this self-declared Islamic Emirate. It's baseless to edit this article, without clearing the root problem of this article, and that's the " topic"! Complete discussion is needed for solving this problem. Wiki N Islam (talk) 16:43, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

• @Wiki N Islam: Until 15 August 2021 this article was only about the regime of 1996–2001. People since then have starting flooding this page with information from 2021, but there was never any consensus to change the topic of the article, so I agree that editing this page is pointless and shouldn't be done. The discussion immediately above is dealing with the problem of renaming, so you might want to cast a vote there and leave a comment. Avilich (talk) 17:21, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

This article is about a current state established in 1996 in Afghanistan which controlled 90% of Afghanistan's territory in 2001, 5-50% between 2001 to 2020, currently controlling 99.2% of Afghanistan. Syed Aashir (talk) 14:48, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

1996–2001 Infobox

I added the infobox from the original page to the Establishment and governance (1996–2001) section of the page and I believe it to be optimal to let it be until a consensus is reached, and deleted should the other page be re-established.180app (talk) 20:41, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Form of government

This report and this one describe the Emirate's practical government structure as of 2018-2019. Key features:

• Unitary; institutions are created, reformed and dissolved by the Leadership.
• The Amir is the supreme leader. He is advised by deputies, Islamic scholars and the Rabhari Shura (Leadership Council)
• Each area of policy is supervised by a commission, which is effectively a ministry.
• The Leadership appoints governors in the provinces and districts, who oversee a local structure similar to the national one and are advised by civilian commissions.

73.71.251.64 (talk) 21:13, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 August 2021

The hatnote reads: "This article is about the Taliban ruled unrecognized state..." it should be "Taliban-ruled". 130.195.253.45 (talk) 08:57, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Done Fixed, Thanks. Pincrete (talk) 10:53, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Executive structure and officeholders of the Emirate for 1996-01 and 2001-21 periods

Hi

I think we should add information about executive structure and officeholders of the Emirate for 1996-01 and 2001-21 periods. But I have no source. --Panam2014 (talk) 04:51, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Legislature

It is said in infobox of this article about Legislature: "Islamic Council (draft constitution)", but considering to that is one draft so not approved and in legal power, should it stay in infobox? It is maybe going little ahead of events. Nubia86 (talk) 09:45, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Agreed.The cite is explicitly talking about the OLD draft constitution. Even within that limited topic it says "The document (ie old draft constitution) was littered with contradictions and was never ratified. It was republished in 2005, a year after Afghanistan adopted a new constitution. But the document has disappeared from Taliban discourse in recent years. So there is actually no reason to believe that anything is known/decided at present. The old draft anyway had the entire Council appointed by the Supreme Leader.

If I may say, this is another problem with half of the article being about an entity which ceased to function in 2001 and half of it being about a nascent entity which came into being only few weeks ago. Pincrete (talk) 07:17, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

I've altered the text to make it clear that the draft constitution only applied to the period of the earlier regime.Pincrete (talk) 08:49, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Emirate motto

USER:Norschweden, the motto for the Emirate was listed as being the Shahada, one of the fundamental prayers of all Muslims ie: "There is no god but Allah. Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.". I removed it because it was completely uncited as being THE MOTTO of either the Emirate or of Afghanistan itself. How could it be? A national motto is a text especially linked to that one country, how could a text sacred to ALL Muslims be the motto of one group of them. This is like claiming that The credo or the Lord's Prayer are the motto of any particular christian country sinve they are much recited there. More importantly, the claim is completely uncited. My search engine search for "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan motto' - returns one result, this article. I've no doubt that the prayer is very important to the Emirate, but I doubt if even they would claim 'ownership' of it in the way that 'national motto' implies. Pincrete (talk) 18:14, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

a national moto doesn't have to be linked to the country specifically, it just needs to be stated as the motto. and the thigs you imagine about "ownership" of a motto are just wrong. Norschweden (talk) 19:18, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

USER:Norschweden, so where is the cite saying that this is the national motto? Because it looks an awful lot like there simply ISN"T one and that this is simply WP:OR! Pincrete (talk) 21:26, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

As noone seems able to produce a source, I'm going to remove this claim. It's uncited and counter-intuitive to boot. Pincrete (talk) 08:14, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Dari: official language

There is no indication that Taliban uses Dari as an official language. Beshogur (talk) 12:29, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

This is correct, I believe Dari is still left in the info-box as a holdover from the former Islamic Republic of Afghanistan. --Donenne (talk) 16:46, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Capital

According to this footage from Al-Jazeera, the capital has yet to be decided (0:27) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR2pSHSH6V4

Transcript: "He (Abdul Qahar Balkhi) said the talks include whether the capital will remain in Kabul or move to the groups birthplace in Kandahar." --Donenne (talk) 16:45, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Two New Related Articles

Just as a note to editors who want to edit about this topic: Today, two new articles started which are Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan–United States relations & List of drone strikes in the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. Elijahandskip (talk) 04:42, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Recognition - glass half full or half empty?

From the lead:

Although no government has recognized the re-established Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan as of 18 August 2021, the governments of China, Pakistan, Russia, Saudi Arabia and the United States of America have stated that they may recognize the Taliban government if it respects basic human rights. The United Kingdom and Canada have stated that they will not recognize Taliban rule over Afghanistan.

References

I cannot access all the above sources (££), but it looks as though the NATO ones are saying almost the same thing - Canada + UK = no plans at present, US = no recognition but might recognise if Taliban respect human rights and keep out terrorists. The non-NATO sources don't seem to be saying anything very different either, though the human rights aspects might be looser. Aren't we making an unreal distinction in the text above? No one will recognise IEofA, but all would/could do if conditions were met - the conditions being not very different between the not-yetters and the maybe-iffers. Pincrete (talk) 08:45, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

First and second infobox

I will remove the informations about the first emirate about, for example battle of Tora Bora etc., will list the fall of Kabul as the first event. Any other recommendations? Beshogur (talk) 11:35, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Beshogur, the trouble is, there still is no agreement about the scope of this article. Is it about the organisation that formed in 1996 and which continues, or is it about the first or current ACTUAL regime? I see that you have removed the earlier timeline. Unfortunately the result of that IMO is to further confuse the scope - the text starts in 1996, the infobox starts with events from 2021, but some facts from earlier dates. I'm not blaming you, I'm simply recording that the entire article is pulling in at least 3 directions at the same time. Pincrete (talk) 12:02, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

@Pincrete: I'm trying to improve the infobox. The version before my edits looks simply the copy of the one below. Either we merge them, or leave it like this. I don't think prior events should be mentioned considering the emirate was "reestablished", and they "declared" one recently. Beshogur (talk) 16:03, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm certainly not blaming you, it's all a result of a seeming inability to agree on 'scopes' despite X discussions above. At the moment the article is about whatever we each think it's about. GggggggRrrrrrrEeeeeeRrrrrr !Pincrete (talk) 13:28, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

The new infobox has quite significant issues, such as WP:OR/WP:SYNTH, that are related to the lack of scope. It stitches together aspects of the Taliban (which has not even set up a government yet) with aspects of the previous government, while also containing misinterpretations such as suggesting this is an "unrecognized state". Looking back, it appears the scope (including infobox) was first changed in this 15 August edit, which spiralled to the current issues. CMD (talk) 13:56, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

@Chipmunkdavis: how isn't this an "unrecognized state". I did not understand rest of your comment, do you imply such a state doesn't exist yet, because it doesn't have a government? Beshogur (talk) 14:15, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

The state is Afghanistan, it's the potential new government which isn't recognized. Regarding my comment on the government not yet being established, that was referring to the infobox having a "Government" section despite this. CMD (talk) 14:33, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

The state is Afghanistan, it's the potential new government which isn't recognized. there is no formal recognition yet, thus unrecognized. Beshogur (talk) 15:00, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't understand how your comment relates to the part of my message you quoted, which explicitly includes "which isn't recognized". CMD (talk) 15:12, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

@Chipmunkdavis: sorry my mistake. Beshogur (talk) 15:55, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

The state isn't Afghanistan, actually. The state is the Islamic Republic/Emirate of Afghanistan, while just "Aghanistan" is the country both states purport to represent. Saying the IEA is an unrecognized state is not implying that Afghanistan itself is unrecognized as a country that exists. BSMRD (talk) 15:45, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Do you have a source for this semantic interpretation? The IEA is not recognized as a government, Afghanistan is the sovereign state in question. See also Sovereign state#Relationship between state and government. CMD (talk) 15:57, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

The underlying problem is that editors are consistently conflating (or mixing and matching which bits they want), from the fact that there is an organisation known as IEofA, which has existed since 1996 and did/would continue to exist as long as it had some members and a letterhead and a website and a corner of the country to hide in, with a regime known as IEofA which ruled almost all of Afghanistan for 5 years, lost control of most of the country for 15 years and which has now regained control in 2021 (as a new regime?). The regime(s) and the organisation running them have the same name, but they are not the same thing anymore than the Nazi party is the same as Nazi Germany or the King of Greece is the Kingdom of Greece. Until we decide the scopes of the various bits of this puzzle, we are going to continue to produce muddled text and infoboxes IMO.Pincrete (talk) 17:28, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Flag of IEA

The User Lexicon recently edited the Flag of IEA

Flag of Taliban

and making the size 1:2, there are no references regarding this in 2021. The flag might be 1:2 before but this article is about the current IEA. I think the flag should be moved to 2:3 like other countries. 4:48 30 August, 2021 Biskut Merry (UTC)

We have as many sources saying it's 2:3 as we do saying it's 1:2, but the 1:2 ratio has precedent. I see no reason not to use the 1:2 ratio. BSMRD (talk) 16:09, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

@Biskut Merry: if you look at their official english website: https://alemarahenglish.asia/ you can see a 1:2 ratio Serafart (talk) (contributions) 20:49, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't use wiki, but source 18, leads to a 404

Source 18 leads to a 404: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-31813681 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:3d08:327e:19c0:b982:f69b:ac55:2498 (talk) 10:45, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

I've removed the ref, the claim itself (that they blew up the Buddhas) is not contentious and is fully supported in the body of the article and in the link.Pincrete (talk) 12:53, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Proposal: Expand the 2021-Present Military section

Aircraft captured at Kabul International Airport but rendered disabled by U.S. forces:

Aircraft (27)

12x A-29B light attack aircraft
12x C-208/AC-208 utlity/attack aircraft 
2x C-130 transport aircraft
1x PC-12NG special mission aircraft

Helicopters (43)

12x UH-60A 'Blackhawk' transport helicopter 5x CH-46 transport helicopter
14x MD 530F attack helicopter 
14x Mi-8/Mi-17 transport helicopter 

Comprehensive list updated and available @ https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2021/09/list-of-aircraft-and-helicopters.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:600:967f:da30:75dc:13ee:2824:1316 (talk) 01:23, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Merge into Afghanistan

Closed as duplicate of discussion elsewhere.

It's official. The time has come to merge Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan into Afghanistan. The government was officially announced yesterday. The government might be unrecognized, but that doesn't change the fact that it is the government. It might claim to be the legitimate government but the thing is that IRA is the "only" government since IRA has ended. MeshaNigo 3:39, 9 September 2021 (UTC) Both pages are larger than suggested merge WP:size on their own, merging them would be impractical. CMD (talk) 03:46, 9 September 2021 (UTC) Support Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan should be merged into Afghanistan and title should be a redirect to Afghanistan. The merge is very long. Zaidothi (talk) 3:54, 9 September 2021 (UTC) Support Syed Aashir (talk) 04:41, 9 September 2021 (UTC) Support - Should the 1996-2001 section then be again reverted into its original article then?180app (talk) 04:52, 9 September 2021 (UTC) Strongest possible oppose … 1) This proposal contradicts an ongoing 'rename/restore original (1996-2001) scope' above, and is therefore disruptive. … 2) A merge is highly impractical and undesirable, the resulting article would be WP:TOOBIG - approximately 9 times the recommended article size and would therefore need almost immediate 're-splitting', for which the most obvious split would be into 'eras' ie before US invasion/ insurgency to 2021/ 2021 onwards. The article would also be tortuously difficult to read because of the need to deal with at least 3 distinct eras iro each issue/topic area … … 3) A similar proposal has just WHOLLY FAILED to reach consensus. Of course the main 'country article should acknowledge that the IEofA appears now to have been re-established, and is probably going to use that name, with a 'see main article link' to this and the other various 'eras', but there will still be the need for separate articles for each historical regime/era. The merge proposal is impractical and undesirable. I recommend procedural CLOSE. Pincrete (talk) 06:16, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

• Comment This is already being discussed here. We don't need another thread for this. BSMRD (talk) 06:23, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
• Update The above discussion was closed with a clear agreement that the Afghanistan article should be updated to take account of the recent regime change but that the MERGE of this should be abandoned for now. Pincrete (talk) 12:34, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose The concept of Afghanistan is more comprehensive than Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, besides the Emirate is currently unrecognised state (unlike the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan) while Afghanistan is recognised as a sovereign country and the Islamic Republic as its legitimate government, and I doubt that the IEA will get the international recognition and take the seat of the IRA in UN sooner. Mohammed 2976 (talk) 15:06, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

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• Taliban Leader-Mohammad Hassan Akhund.jpg

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A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

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Current Taliban administration and Taliban in exile

Hi We need article about the 2 situations. --Panam2014 (talk) 01:52, 13 September 2021 (UTC)